Row over Scientology video

[CFLarsen]

Row over Scientology video

The battleground is YouTube and Scientology's weapon is a clip of me losing it in the "Mind Control" section of a gruesome exhibition.

Scientology has fought many battles to keep its secrets off the web, now they are using it to attack my investigation into them.

Scientology has prepared an attack video, and they have shown the Scientology v Sweeney shouting match to anyone who would watch it.

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6650545.stm)

Clip here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxqR5NPhtLI&mode=related&search=)

Is it me, or does it sound as if his shouting has been distorted, to make it sound even worse?

BBC Panorama: "Scientology and Me" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HGM8DSnYh0&NR=1)

[Tanja]

Thanks, Claus, I was just about to start a thread on this as I just saw the article on BBC news - I was only delayed as I did not know whether to put it in Skepticism, Religion, Politics or TV forum...I will certainly be watching it tomorrow.

[JimTheBrit]

Articles on this have appeared in many of today's UK papers (Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article1782050.ece), Observer (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2078503,00.html), Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/showbiz/showbiznews.html?in_article_id=454430&in_page_id=1773)) and the programme's producer has just appeared on Heaven & Earth to comment. Sweeney's outburst "is not condoned by the BBC" but is not entirely unjustified apparently.

[CFLarsen]

The guy who put it up is, as you guessed, a Scientologist himself.

[wahrheit]

Good article on the BBC website. Lurkers, read the Link Claus provided as Source in his quote.

Is it me, or does it sound as if his shouting has been distorted, to make it sound even worse?

No, that's normal overdrive which happens when a sound is too loud for the microphone or the recording level it is set to.

[baron]

Oh dear, he shouted. We should all concentrate on this instead of the vile manipulation of weak-minded individuals and destruction of families by the worthless, evil scumbags who head up the so-called church of Scientology.

[trvlr2]

*singing*Happy Xenu to you, happy Xenu to you! *end singing*

A vile , pernicious group which makes the Mafia look relatively benign.

And, the xenus own Clearwater, Florida-from the city council to the downtown area, to the police department. Well, maybe not totally, but close, imo.

tc link for you-

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/05/29/Tampabay/Scientologists_settle.shtml

[Gr8wight]

I think it is clear from the video clip that the reporter did not, in fact, "lose it," as evidenced by the way he dropped his voice and calmly asked, "do you understand?" at the end of his screaming. He was simply doing it for effect.

[Horatius]

He was simply doing it for effect.




That's what I thought, and this clip tends to support this idea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVAeL8AyYeI


ETA: and, having been yelled at by an Old Bald British Guy with the same tone of voice, I know how effective it can be :)

[Questioninggeller]

I think it is clear from the video clip that the reporter did not, in fact, "lose it," as evidenced by the way he dropped his voice and calmly asked, "do you understand?" at the end of his screaming. He was simply doing it for effect.

Yeah, I agree. After watching it, I thought: is that it? With all of Scientology's money that's the best they have...

[jon]

Yeah, I agree. After watching it, I thought: is that it? With all of Scientology's money that's the best they have...

I'm presuming that if the scientologists had successfully dug up any other dirt on Sweeney they'd have been publicising it - so if that's the most embarassing thing he has done, I think that qualifies him either as a paragon of virtue or slightly dull - depending on your POV :D

[Big Les]

He mentions being put through a weird anti-psychiatry "exhibit" - is he in fact aping the presentation style of that? I agree that he appears quite calm and is trying to make a point of some sort.

Hopefully it will act as viral marketing for the Panorama programme, and even more people will realise how effed-up Scientology is.

[Moochie]

Clip here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxqR5NPhtLI&mode=related&search=)

Is it me, or does it sound as if his shouting has been distorted, to make it sound even worse?

BBC Panorama: "Scientology and Me" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HGM8DSnYh0&NR=1)


Geeze, Claus, I go look at this video and two hours later, here I am. There's such a wealth of mostly derogatory material on YT it makes my eyes water -- mostly through uncontrolled mirth. :D

The video of the July 4th street party where three $cientology goons pester the videographer is priceless. I haven't had such a good laugh in a long while.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPol_m8wm8Y


M.

[wahrheit]

The video of the July 4th street party where three $cientology goons pester the videographer is priceless. I haven't had such a good laugh in a long while.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPol_m8wm8Y

Scary video. :eek:

[Rrose Selavy]

They've definitely been up to their usual tricks, intimidating and digging for "dirt" to try to protray anyone who questions them as unbalanced or suspect - this is the best they could come up with so far it seems


While making our BBC Panorama film "Scientology and Me" I have been shouted at, spied on, had my hotel invaded at midnight, denounced as a "bigot" by star Scientologists, brain-washed - that is how it felt to me - in a mock up of a Nazi-style torture chamber and chased round the streets of Los Angeles by sinister strangers. Back in Britain strangers have called on my neighbours, my mother-in-law's house and someone spied on my wedding and fled the moment he was challenged.



I hope the video doesn't detract from one of the progs themes, the all -too cosy relationship beyween some senior City of London Police and CoS who have a building -getting concessions etc - in the City (the small but
significant financial district) of London.

[Civilized Worm]

I sympathise with this guy, $cientology makes me feel like that too.

[CFLarsen]

Geeze, Claus, I go look at this video and two hours later, here I am. There's such a wealth of mostly derogatory material on YT it makes my eyes water -- mostly through uncontrolled mirth. :D

The video of the July 4th street party where three $cientology goons pester the videographer is priceless. I haven't had such a good laugh in a long while.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPol_m8wm8Y


M.

Priceless, yes.

But also scary. These guys are not just total loonies, they are dangerous.

[neon]

*singing*Happy Xenu to you, happy Xenu to you! *end singing*

A vile , pernicious group which makes the Mafia look relatively benign.

And, the xenus own Clearwater, Florida-from the city council to the downtown area, to the police department. Well, maybe not totally, but close, imo.



They sure do. I live close to there, and I used to drive past some of their buildings to get to work. Their drones are always walking up and down in those Mormon-like outfits. Scary. Makes Margaret Atwood and Aldous Huxley look like pikers. :eek:

If people would start reading about the Xenu garbage, and what happens to people who give up on medicine in order to be "treated" by these freaks, they'd be screaming in the streets. I want to break the tv every time I see one of their celebrity hacks. :mad:

[Checkmite]

The video of the July 4th street party where three $cientology goons pester the videographer is priceless. I haven't had such a good laugh in a long while.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPol_m8wm8Y


M.

I find that video highly enturbulating.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

That must have been a staged joke. No one would accuse someone of being a child molester just out of the blue. That's ludicrous.

~~ Paul

[JimTheBrit]

Further articles from the Independent (http://news.independent.co.uk/media/article2536879.ece) and Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=OAKIVYXNXRTMHQFIQMFSFGGAVCBQ 0IV0?xml=/news/2007/05/13/nbbc113.xml). The BBC web article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6650545.stm) has been updated to include an interview with the editor.

Sweeney was the bloke who did that expose of Kabbalah back in Jan '05 BTW.

[Checkmite]

It is certainly ludicrous - but, it was neither staged, nor a joke. This is what happens to nearly anybody who pickets Scientology - they get smeared. There's a super-special "Scientology" term for it, but I forget what it is.

[Mark A. Siefert]

The video of the July 4th street party where three $cientology goons pester the videographer is priceless. I haven't had such a good laugh in a long while.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPol_m8wm8Y


(http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=interpellate)"What are your CRIMES?!"

"Why do you have to attack Scientology?!"

"What are your CRIMES?!"

"Why are you afraid of Hubbard?!"

"What are your CRIMES?!"

("Interpellate? (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=interpellate)" Do these idiots know what the hell the word means?)

[Mark A. Siefert]

It is certainly ludicrous - but, it was neither staged, nor a joke. This is what happens to nearly anybody who pickets Scientology - they get smeared. There's a super-special "Scientology" term for it, but I forget what it is.

"Fair Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_%28Scientology%29)..." but, the Scientologists say they no longer have a policy called "Fair Game."

Riiiiight.

[Mark A. Siefert]

That must have been a staged joke. No one would accuse someone of being a child molester just out of the blue. That's ludicrous.

~~ Paul

Nope, that's SOP for the CoS. The Scios are fond of the tactic of "bull baiting" where they make outrageous accusations to the intended target's face in hopes of getting a reaction that they can use for propaganda purposes.

Watch some of the other videos at XenuTV (http://www.xenutv.com/) and you'll get my point.

[Checkmite]

("Interpellate? (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=interpellate)" Do these idiots know what the hell the word means?)


No, they're saying "enturbulate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enturbulation)".

[richardm]

They've definitely been up to their usual tricks, intimidating and digging for "dirt" to try to protray anyone who questions them as unbalanced or suspect

According to Panorama's editor the scientologists have circulated a video to all MPs and peers claiming that the programme made "terrorist death threats " to scientologists. Bizarre.

[JimTheBrit]

A piece in today's Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=454633&in_page_id=1770) written by Sweeney himself, explaining events.

[Darat]

According to Panorama's editor the scientologists have circulated a video to all MPs and peers claiming that the programme made "terrorist death threats " to scientologists. Bizarre.

My opinion is that their tactics are going to backfire on them, its probably got the audience up for the programme by a few percent but more importantly I'm certain it means local authorities and the like will now be even more careful in any dealings they have with them.

[brodski]

I think it is clear from the video clip that the reporter did not, in fact, "lose it," as evidenced by the way he dropped his voice and calmly asked, "do you understand?" at the end of his screaming. He was simply doing it for effect.

That's what I thought, and this clip tends to support this idea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVAeL8AyYeI


ETA: and, having been yelled at by an Old Bald British Guy with the same tone of voice, I know how effective it can be :)

A few years ago, when John Sweeny was doing mainly political reporting, he was dubbed “the Foghorn” due to his ability to shout very loudly (often over the rest of the press scrum), he’s used this to embarrass a number of polatics who where pretending that they couldn’t hear eth questions he was asking, in order to avoid them (see his book “Purple Homicide” for an account of how he did this against Neil Hamilton in 1997).

The fact that he raises his voice is in no way an indication that he has lost control of his temper.

[Mojo]

I think it is clear from the video clip that the reporter did not, in fact, "lose it," as evidenced by the way he dropped his voice and calmly asked, "do you understand?" at the end of his screaming. He was simply doing it for effect.


Private Eye (UK satirical magazine) usually describes Sweeney as "foghorn voiced", IIRC.

ETA: Damn you Brodski!

[Michael C]

He was simply doing it for effect.

Not according to the reporter himself:

"If you are interested in becoming a TV journalist, it is a fine example of how not to do it. I look like an exploding tomato and shout like a jet engine and every time I see it makes me cringe."

See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/6651231.stm

[Big Les]

Not according to the reporter himself:

"If you are interested in becoming a TV journalist, it is a fine example of how not to do it. I look like an exploding tomato and shout like a jet engine and every time I see it makes me cringe."

See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/6651231.stm

There's not necessarily a contradiction there. He both "lost it" by his own standards, and yet at the time was doing it for effect quite deliberately - see Brodski's post. He was clearly being talked over and so adopted that weird shouting voice to try and make a point. The overall effect is that he looks like a loon, granted, and he's right to regret it.

[Darat]

I agree with Big Les - the cultist is the one who starts to shout over Sweeney, unfortunately for the cultist for once a journalist shouted back but unless you see the start and end of the sequence that is easily missed and all you see and certainly hear is Sweeney shouting.

[Moochie]

Scary video. :eek:

Yeah. I think those guys exemplify what's at the heart of this "religion" terribly well.

M

[Moochie]

I find that video highly enturbulating.

Yeah, I was rolling on the floor enturbulating my thingy off.

M.

[Psi Baba]

Those guys really were frightening. You could see the vacuousness in their eyes; nothing behind them at all. And every line they spewed was something that had been repeatedly drilled into them. They had no words of their own. They're just shells. People like that could almost make one believe in the human soul due to their obvious lack of such. And to think, so many of them corralled into one small area. An opportunity missed . . .

[HarryKeogh]

People like that could almost make one believe in the human soul due to their obvious lack of such. And to think, so many of them corralled into one small area. An opportunity missed . . .

An opportunity for what?

[andyandy]

well, just watched it, and within the context of the film his loss of temper is quite understandable - if not entirely professional... :)

For an organisation so seeemingly obsessed with PR, their entire approach to the whole documentary was hugely counterproductive - it wasn't really necessary for any investigative digging into scientology (indeed, there really wasn't anything of substance), because they came across as sinister, manipulative and downright unpleasant all by themselves....



*there's two threads on this so i'll post in both :D *

[Architect]

I've lost my temper on site before, under considerable provocation from a building control. It happens. Doesn't mean he wasn't right though.

[Psi Baba]

An opportunity for what?
For ordering a mass end-cycle.

[fsol]

You can stream the program from here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/programmes/panorama/default.stm

I'm not sure if the link'll work for non-UK people. Might be worth a try if you can't wait for youtube.

[Azrael 5]

Anyone-like me-who missed it earlier can see it again at these times.
Panorama is on BBC News 24 Mondays at 00:30 BST and Tuesdays at 03:30 BST.

[wahrheit]

You can stream the program from here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/programmes/panorama/default.stm

I'm not sure if the link'll work for non-UK people. Might be worth a try if you can't wait for youtube.

Works perfect from outside the UK, thanks for the link, watching it now.

[andyandy]

Works perfect from outside the UK, thanks for the link, watching it now.

i don't pay my license fee for some johnny foreigner to watch the BBC at my expense!

I'm going to write a letter to the Daily Mail. :D

[Darat]

i don't pay my license fee for some johnny foreigner to watch the BBC at my expense!

I'm going to write a letter to the Daily Mail. :D

You want your plumber to learn his or her English from American shows!?

[andyandy]

You want your plumber to learn his or her English from American shows!?

lol :)

[JimTheBrit]

Anyone-like me-who missed it earlier can see it again at these times.
Panorama is on BBC News 24 Mondays at 00:30 BST and Tuesdays at 03:30 BST.

Thanks for that Azrael (mumble recorded the wrong bleedin' side mumble).

[wahrheit]

i don't pay my license fee for some johnny foreigner to watch the BBC at my expense!

I'm going to write a letter to the Daily Mail. :D

The Daily Mail? I thought the tabloid of your choice for that kind of letter to the editor would be The Sun, "Hitler Youth Nazi Foreigners Ruin The Beep — Queen very upset." :newlol

[strimmer]

Geeze, Claus, I go look at this video and two hours later, here I am. There's such a wealth of mostly derogatory material on YT it makes my eyes water -- mostly through uncontrolled mirth. :D

The video of the July 4th street party where three $cientology goons pester the videographer is priceless. I haven't had such a good laugh in a long while.

M.

That Video was pretty frightening. I thought those guys were scary, then they started fallowing him, speaking of losing it, i would have lost it there.

They kept insisting that he had done a criminal act. The Church must drill into the followers that if they are against scientology, they have to be a murderer, or a child molester, as they men in the video kept bringing back up.

I wish Randi would go after scientology more because these guys are NUTS!!!!

[Civilized Worm]

Watching the whole show I cannot blame the guy for shouting at him, it was quite satisfying to see a $cientologist learn what it's like to be on the recieving end of such scare tactics.

[wahrheit]

Watching the whole show I cannot blame the guy for shouting at him, it was quite satisfying to see a $cientologist learn what it's like to be on the recieving end of such scare tactics.

Seconded. Just finished watching the entire Panorama show, and I sure as hell would have lost it much, much earlier. I'm lacking words to describe that "church".

[Mojo]

I'm lacking words to describe that "church".Mrs. Mojo came up with an excellent word to describe the mouthy scientology guy. Unfortunately I don't think the forum rules allow me to post it.

[Questioninggeller]

I just watched the Panorama documentary.

It was amazing how bad Scientology made themselves look by hiring investigators, showing up at his hotel at midnight, showing up mid-interview with old police reports about an interviewee, and producing a rebuttal DVD calling the footage staged.

Scientology usually gets cast in a bad light, but they have sunk even lower. To parade all your A-list celebs for interviews then pull the plug afterwards is not going to make them look any better.

Also seeing the "shouting" scene $cienology posted on youtube from a different angel made a huge difference. For one in $cienology's version:

1) doesn't show the context
2) had the audio of Tommy turned down (and/or Sweeney's mic turned up)
3) seems to slightly edit Tommy's comments to make the scene more about Sweeney

After watching that I think most people will agree Sweeney is a very tolerant person. That yelling took place after a week of Scientology harassment and surveillance. Your average person would tell Scientology off after one day of that, and not put themself through 7 days of that.

[andyandy]

an absolutely fascinating BBC documentary from 1967 with full length L Ron himself.....

=L_w-YWwC1lI

[Azrael 5]

When will Tom Cruise be available for comment?

[Big Les]

When will Tom Cruise be available for comment?

You're being glib, Azrael. What are your crimes?

[Mark A. Siefert]

No, they're saying "enturbulate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enturbulation)".

Hmmm...


Doctor: Wait a minute, Brian, you have a pre-existing relationship with this degenerate?

Peter: A degenerate, am I? Well you are a festizio! See, I can make up words too, sister.

-Family Guy
"The Thin White Line"

[Azrael 5]

You're being glib, Azrael. What are your crimes?

I don't understand.:confused:

[Professor Yaffle]

I think this youtube thing will really backfire on the scientologists - I think it will lead to a lot more people seeing the panorama programme and seeing them for the creepy cult that they are. Maybe it wasn't the scientologists that put that video up, maybe it was the BBC trying to get their viewing figures up....

[Big Al]

I like the way the emphasis here is on Sweeney and "made-up anger". I found the ever-present Scientology suit's "anger" pretty damn' fake, too. He was working away at provoking a reaction by shouting down Sweeney, saying what he wanted to say, then spinning on his heel and marching away before his mark could get a word in edgeways.

Under the circumstances, I reckon Tommy must have been pretty peeved that all he got from Sweeney was raised voices. I bet he was braced all the time for a well-merited right cross and disappointed when he didn't get one.

[Big Les]

I don't understand.:confused:

Sorry Azrael - it's Tom Cruise's line from his infamous couch-jumping incident (http://www.cbc.ca/arts/story/2005/06/27/cruise050627.html)on TV.

"What are your crimes?" is a standard "Fair Game" line, along the lines of what you'll see them up to in the Panorama documentary.

[Big Les]

PS - At work, we've been sent two "L Ron Hubbard - Introducing Scientology" DVDs. Would it be wrong to melt them?

[Azrael 5]

Watched it on the repeat last night and not knowing much about Scientology before it was hilarious.The blacked out people cruiser following him was creepy though!
Poor Katie Holmes,is all I can say..

[JQH]

It is certainly ludicrous - but, it was neither staged, nor a joke. This is what happens to nearly anybody who pickets Scientology - they get smeared. There's a super-special "Scientology" term for it, but I forget what it is.

"Fair Game". When you have been so declared, $ciento£ogists can do anything they like to you, as far as the Church of $ciento£ogy is concerned.

I saw the Panorama programme last night. Sweeney was followed everywhere by a creepy MIB, including being tracked down to his hotel, tailed while driving etc.

[richardm]

... and what about that woman he stopped in the street to ask what she thought of the church?
I always thought that English people were really polite, but I've heard you're not a nice man

Er.. thank you, random stranger...

[Rolfe]

I was interested to see all these high up cultists flatly deny the whole Xenu thing. Does anyone know what the official line is on that? Was it ever part of scientology belief? Was it just invented by the Clambake pranksters just to make the cult look bad? Or is it something they've now renounced? If the Xenu stuff is fictitious, then what are engrams and thetans, really?

I don't think they're going to be recognised as a religion in this country any time soon, after that little lot.

Rolfe.

[Spiro]

I seem to recall there was a time - many years ago - when the $cientology top brass from the USA were refused visas to enter the UK. The ban was on the grounds that the 'religion' compelled its adherents repeatedly to hand over money to the church and that it took unpleasant steps to deal with people who left it. Does anyone know the current status of this ban?

Can anyone think of other religions that might be similarly described as compelling their adherents to keep handing over money and which become unpleasant with apostates? I'm sure we'd never let anything like that flourish in a civilized society.

[HarryKeogh]

It's up on youtube. I also put the links in a new thread in the Religion subforum in case future members look there for info on Scientology.

Part 1 of 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk8gRmedtJ0)

Part 2 of 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvYuF2cueSw)

Part 3 of 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2_Ok0ypTTY)

[Checkmite]

I remember Scientology being effectively evicted from Greece for those reasons; I am not sure about the UK.

Rolfe, since 2005, when Xenu became general public knowledge (thanks to the MI3/Cruise thing), the Church officially admitted the existence of the Xenu doctrine; however, they maintained that it was a very small portion of the religion, not meant to be taken literally (i.e., it alluded to deeper meanings that only an initiate would understand after having been in the Church for such-and-such length of time). For more than $19,000, these deeper meanings had better be extremely profound.

The first time the Church more or less "officially" admitted Xenu's existence was through their lawyer in Warren McShane of the Church of Scientology in RTC v. FactNet, Civil Action No. 95B2143, United States Courthouse, Denver, Colorado, 11 September 1995. The church was suing FactNet because FactNet had posted photocopies of several Scientology documents, including the Xenu materials. The lawsuit was copyright based, and the Church has taken civil action anytime those materials are posted or transliterated online. They even try to take action against paraphrases or synopses (one person was sued for posting an "ebonics" version of it), claiming trade secret exposure.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I couldn't help but think of the Knights who say Ni, everytime the word 'cult' was used.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

When will Tom Cruise be available for comment?

Is 'Buddy' a particularly scientologist insult? :D I remember when Tom Cruise got squirted in the face by a water pistol at a film premiere in London, he also used the word 'buddy' when confronting the shooter.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

PS - At work, we've been sent two "L Ron Hubbard - Introducing Scientology" DVDs. Would it be wrong to melt them?
No.

~~ Paul

[asmodean]

"Fair Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_%28Scientology%29)..." but, the Scientologists say they no longer have a policy called "Fair Game."

Riiiiight.

Well, from the wiki-link you quoted:


The "Fair Game" policy soon gained notoriety in the British press, and even received mention in Parliament. In response to the criticism, Hubbard issued a new policy letter which ostensibly cancelled "Fair Game":

The practice of declaring people FAIR GAME will cease. FAIR GAME may not appear on any Ethics Order. It causes bad public relations. This P/L does not cancel any policy on the treatment or handling of an SP. [16]

The following month, the Church of Scientology issued a "code of reform" which purported to cancel several of the Church's most-criticized policies. This highlighted the "Cancellation of declaring people Fair Game". [17]

And from Operation Clambake:


HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE
Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex

HCO Policy Letter of 21 October 1968

CANCELLATION OF FAIR GAME


The practice of declaring people FAIR GAME will cease.

FAIR GAME may not appear on any Ethics Order. It causes bad public relations.

This P/L does not cancel any policy on the treatment or handling of an SP.


LRH:ci:cden L. RON HUBBARD
Copyright (c) 1968 Founder
by L. Ron Hubbard
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED


In other words. The policy is still in effect. You'er just not allowed to use the term "Fair Game" 'cause it's bad PR.

Kinda like the way HBO wanted a new term for DRM.

[JimTheBrit]

I've collated all the programme reviews from today's papers:


...



Not a single one. Given the ruckus about Sweeney's outburst before broadcast, I'm puzzled as to why none of the main dailies (Times, Tel, Guard, DExp, Ind - DMail, Sun, Mirr don't have daily TV reviews) have published an opinion on the programme. Suspicious even.

[jon]

I've collated all the programme reviews from today's papers:

Not a single one. Given the ruckus about Sweeney's outburst before broadcast, I'm puzzled as to why none of the main dailies (Times, Tel, Guard, DExp, Ind - DMail, Sun, Mirr don't have daily TV reviews) have published an opinion on the programme. Suspicious even.

If it's any consolation, there's an interesting post about scientology on the quackometer blog (http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2007/05/patrick-holford-and-scientology-church.html).

[Big Les]

No.

~~ Paul

I explained the basics of the Co$ to the librarian and later on saw both copies safely archived in the "round file". :D Is it worth me taking one for amusement purposes?

[Hitch]

Scientologists really need better PR. I watched the Panorama episode. The main reason I watched it is because Scientologists posted the clip of Sweeney shouting on YouTube. That clip didn’t make me think Sweeney was evil or deranged – it made me wonder what the shouting was about.

Scientologists get really upset when anyone uses the term “cult” to describe them. Which I can somewhat understand. But instead of combating those claims with reasonable arguments and evidence of why they shouldn’t be described in those terms, they freak out and attack anyone who dares use the dreaded “c-word.” They also object to the spread of the Xenu story. They claim it’s not part of their religion. Sweeney went to their Celebrity Center and interviewed a number of actors and actresses about the church and Xenu. Apparently they all spoke highly of the church and rejected the Xenu stuff as silly nonsense. It would seem to me that those interviews would go a long way towards making Scientology seem more legitimate, but (apparently) the BBC wasn’t allowed to use any of them because Sweeney said “cult.”

Panorama even seemed to me to go out of their way to provide a bit of balance by pointing out Scientology’s efforts in disaster relief. Although, that might have been a highly subtle (and, if intentional, very effective) hatchet job. Scientology’s “disaster relief” is “healing touch” therapy for victims and relief workers?

So we’re left with wooish behavior, cutish secrecy, and not letting members speak openly and publicly about what they believe in. (I know, I used the “c-word.” I must be a child molester.)

The Church of Scientology really needs someone speaking publicly on their behalf that gives anyone a reason not to see them as a cult, rather than just being afraid of the word.

[Dredred]

Panorama even seemed to me to go out of their way to provide a bit of balance by pointing out Scientology’s efforts in disaster relief. Although, that might have been a highly subtle (and, if intentional, very effective) hatchet job. Scientology’s “disaster relief” is “healing touch” therapy for victims and relief workers?

Does anyone know if this 'disaster relief' is, besides a way of polishing Sientology's image, also a way of finding new recruits? Drug addicts are being recruited into Scientology by their Narconon proram. Their vulnerability makes them easy targets, as was mentioned in the documentary. I guess the same thing goes for victims of any kind of disaster.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I've collated all the programme reviews from today's papers:


...



Not a single one. Given the ruckus about Sweeney's outburst before broadcast, I'm puzzled as to why none of the main dailies (Times, Tel, Guard, DExp, Ind - DMail, Sun, Mirr don't have daily TV reviews) have published an opinion on the programme. Suspicious even.

I wonder if the reviewers didn't get their 'preview' dvds for this programme. Most of the reviews are written well ahead of time.

[Deus Ex Machina]

That's what I thought, and this clip tends to support this idea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVAeL8AyYeI


ETA: and, having been yelled at by an Old Bald British Guy with the same tone of voice, I know how effective it can be :)

I don't recall ever yelling at you...

[Moochie]

You can stream the program from here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/programmes/panorama/default.stm

I'm not sure if the link'll work for non-UK people. Might be worth a try if you can't wait for youtube.

The YouTube version gives you a bigger image.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J8-Zfzd55E

Just don't get enturbulated, y'hear?


M.

[Moochie]

Sorry -- mispost.

M.

[Psi Baba]

I remember Scientology being effectively evicted from Greece for those reasons; I am not sure about the UK.

Rolfe, since 2005, when Xenu became general public knowledge (thanks to the MI3/Cruise thing), the Church officially admitted the existence of the Xenu doctrine; however, they maintained that it was a very small portion of the religion, not meant to be taken literally (i.e., it alluded to deeper meanings that only an initiate would understand after having been in the Church for such-and-such length of time). For more than $19,000, these deeper meanings had better be extremely profound.

The first time the Church more or less "officially" admitted Xenu's existence was through their lawyer in Warren McShane of the Church of Scientology in RTC v. FactNet, Civil Action No. 95B2143, United States Courthouse, Denver, Colorado, 11 September 1995. The church was suing FactNet because FactNet had posted photocopies of several Scientology documents, including the Xenu materials. The lawsuit was copyright based, and the Church has taken civil action anytime those materials are posted or transliterated online. They even try to take action against paraphrases or synopses (one person was sued for posting an "ebonics" version of it), claiming trade secret exposure.

Scans of the OTIII Material in Hubbard's own handwriting used to be available through the Clambake site (though not easy to find) via a link to a site located in Russia. These scans are no longer on that server. Luckily, I saved them all when I first saw them because I figured they wouldn't always be available or easy to find. Transcripts, however are still available on a Dutch website (in English as well as Dutch). I won't post a direct link (which is buried several levels deep, probably with good reason), but here is how you get there:
From Clambake.org scroll down to the section called THE TECH.
Click the link titled The Secret Library.
In the Secret Library, click the link called OT Levels.
On that page, scroll down to OT III and click the link called Scans of original Operating Thetan Level 3. This is where the scans used to be, but all the links (Page 1, etc.) are now dead. (BTW, scans of OT1 are still on the Clambake site if you just want to see Hubbard's original words)
Click the word "document" to read transcripts and commentary on OT III (which includes everything about Xenu). Much of the material has been published in the book The Road to Xenu by Margery Wakefield, which is has been offered into the public domain and can easily be found via a quick google search.

[Moochie]

Did anyone else get that Tommy Davis seems like a Cruise wannabe? He comes across like a Mormon but with a grotesque ideology. I'd suggest keeping at least a mile between oneself and the nearest $cientologist -- they are a pollutant.

M.

[andyandy]

interesting blog discussion of peoples' reactions to the show

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/organgrinder/2007/05/did_scientology_turn_the_table.html


most seem to follow the same sort of pattern.....

1) saw a snip of a journalist shouting

2) thought that looks a bit strange - wondered why he was so angry

3) watched the program

4) thought within the context of the program his anger was pretty understandable, if a tad unprofessional

5) concluded that the co$ are sinister nutters


you can see the panorama-exposed video - the scientologists' response

here; part 1 (rather drab but interesting from a propaganda perspective)

9psX5SlXb_g


part 2 (more interesting....plenty of whining....watch out for the erroneous attribution of Sweeny's outburst ;) )
g1iCI3iykYM&NR=1

part 3 (bring out the big guns - link the BBC to terrorism. And a whine about Ofcom regulations with regards to religion - er, co$ is not regarded as a religion in the UK....they must have forgotten :) )
rtp1y_IkLag&mode=related&search=


and their website here

www.bbcpanorama-exposed.org

[fsol]

The YouTube version gives you a bigger image.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J8-Zfzd55E

Just don't get enturbulated, y'hear?


M.

Bigger than fullscreen? :jaw-dropp

[andyandy]

roll with the rhetoric :)

The BBC's Director of Current affairs, George Entwistle, known within the BBC as "General Sir George" in deference to his love of military history, apparently forgot the lessons of the past.

When specific complaints about the behavior of John Sweeney and Sarah Mole were brought to his attention, he announced that he was doing a thorough investigation. During his 4 week review of a 30 minute programme, he refused repeated requests to show him the footage of the Panorama team taken by the Church. He refused to meet with anyone from the Church. He only wanted to hear one side. His arrogance is reminiscent of the Americans before Pearl Harbour, because just like them he didn't want to know.http://www.bbcpanorama-exposed.org/the-entwistle-whitewash.php

[Moochie]

Bigger than fullscreen? :jaw-dropp

Sorry, I went to the BBC site quoted earlier and got a rather tiny image. Much smaller than the one on YT.

M.

[Big Les]

You only have to read the transcripts or listen to clips of Hubbard himself talking about all the whacked-out alien stuff to realise just how bonkers the guy really was, and that the Xenu-related stuff that they deny (despite having to admit it in one of their court cases) is actually true.

Here's a selection (http://www.xenu.net/archive/multimedia.html) from xenu.net. I like the spacecraft that look just like DC8s (plus the H-bombs, aliens and volcanoes (http://www.xenu.net/archive/media_vault/DC-8s.mp3)), and his trip to the Van Allen Belts (http://www.xenu.net/archive/media_vault/Vanallen.mp3) particularly :D

I have to say that the nonsensical stuff he comes out with reminds me of my mother's manic episodes :( No wonder he was so down on psychiatry/psychology.

[andyandy]

You only have to read the transcripts or listen to clips of Hubbard himself talking about all the whacked-out alien stuff to realise just how bonkers the guy really was.

even on more down to earth concepts like calculus he has some pretty whacked out ideas....

I can't imagine there's many "nuclear physcists" who don't understand differentiation or integration :D

Rate of change is this mathematics known as Calculus. Calculus, it's a very interesting thing, is divided into two classes -- there's Differential Calculus and Integral Calculus. snip

Now I hope you understand this, because I've never been able to make head nor tail of it. It must be some sort of a Black Magic operation, started out by the Luce cult -- some immoral people who are operating up in New York City, Rockefeller Plaza -- been thoroughly condemned by the whole society. Anyway, their rate-of-change theory -- I've never seen any use for that mathematics, by the way -- I love that mathematics, because it -- I asked an engineer, one time, who was in his 6th year of engineering, if he'd ever used Calculus, and he told me yeah, once, once I did, he said. When did you use it? And he said I used it once. Let me see, what did you use it on? Oh yeah. Something on the rate-of-change of steam particles in boilers. And then we went out and tested it and found the answer was wrong.

Calculus -- if you want to know -- there is room there for a mathematics which is a good mathematics. And it would be the rate of co-change, or the rate of change when something else was changing, so that you could establish existing rates of change in relationship to each other, and for lack of that mathematics, nobody has been able to understand present time -- you just can't sum it up easily -- or let us say, for lack of an understanding of what present time was, nobody could formulate that mathematics. So, actually there's a big hole there that could be filled -- a thing called calculus is trying to fill that hole, right now, and it can't.

But the rates of change -- it comes closest to it. I think it was one of Newton's practical jokes. snip Because the basic unit of the universe is two, you would have to have a rate of change known and measured for every rate of change then estimated. The mathematics won't operate in this universe unless it has simultaneous equations.

[Soapy Sam]

Hmm.

I thought it a rather poor documentary.

I saw very little evidence presented that proved anything Sweeney claimed.

He was clearly told he would be followed and harassed. (Who was that chap who told him this, near the start? I missed any introduction).

He was indeed, so he claimed, harassed and followed.
(I tend to believe him, but I saw little actual evidence.) There was a guy at breakfast in his hotel. Yes. This happens. There was a van. Uhuh. Scary. ( A van followed me from Edinburgh to Glasgow yesterday. Spooky. )

On entering his hotel, his crew were already filming (when Tommy showed up in the lobby). Is it BBC SOP to film when entering a hotel at the end of the day? Did he know already that Tommy was there?

Some Hollywood numpties were interviewed. (I had heard of Kirsty Alley. The rest were unknown to me. Anyone?) Surely, they looked brainwashed- but that begs the question of whether there were brains there to wash in the first place. They all withdrew their testimony, which Sweeney proceeded to summarise anyway.

And there was Tommy.

I freely admit that if anyone talked to me like Tommy talked to Sweeney, he would be looking for a good orthodontist. But that merely suggests scientologists are bad mannered, which is scarcely criminal in itself.
(I was reminded of Ted Haggard face to face with Dawkins. I wonder if Tommy has dark secrets too...)

Do not misunderstand me. I do not class scientology as a religion and cannot remotely grasp why anyone would. It's a pyramid scam. But I don't think much of religions either.
What I have seen (in real life) of scientology I do not like at all. I took the personality test once. (I'm a troubled genius). Aye, well, you fall over troubled geniuses in Sauchiehall Street every Saturday night.

I still do not think this was an informative documentary in terms of hard evidence.
I did find myself wondering, if Tommy is what they have instead of a PR man, what do they have instead of the Rev. Iain Paisley?

[andyandy]

Hmm.

I thought it a rather poor documentary.

I saw very little evidence presented that proved anything Sweeney claimed.

He was clearly told he would be followed and harassed. (Who was that chap who told him this, near the start? I missed any introduction).

He was indeed, so he claimed, harassed and followed.
(I tend to believe him, but I saw little actual evidence.) There was a guy at breakfast in his hotel. Yes. This happens. There was a van. Uhuh. Scary. ( A van followed me from Edinburgh to Glasgow yesterday. Spooky. )

On entering his hotel, his crew were already filming (when Tommy showed up in the lobby). Is it BBC SOP to film when entering a hotel at the end of the day? Did he know already that Tommy was there?

Some Hollywood numpties were interviewed. (I had heard of Kirsty Alley. The rest were unknown to me. Anyone?) Surely, they looked brainwashed- but that begs the question of whether there were brains there to wash in the first place. They all withdrew their testimony, which Sweeney proceeded to summarise anyway.

And there was Tommy.

I freely admit that if anyone talked to me like Tommy talked to Sweeney, he would be looking for a good orthodontist. But that merely suggests scientologists are bad mannered, which is scarcely criminal in itself.
(I was reminded of Ted Haggard face to face with Dawkins. I wonder if Tommy has dark secrets too...)

Do not misunderstand me. I do not class scientology as a religion and cannot remotely grasp why anyone would. It's a pyramid scam. But I don't think much of religions either.
What I have seen (in real life) of scientology I do not like at all. I took the personality test once. (I'm a troubled genius). Aye, well, you fall over troubled geniuses in Sauchiehall Street every Saturday night.

I still do not think this was an informative documentary in terms of hard evidence.
I did find myself wondering, if Tommy is what they have instead of a PR man, what do they have instead of the Rev. Iain Paisley?


i do agree that the documentary had little substance from an investigative sense - and unfortunately somewhat indicative of the dumbing down of Panorama. Nevertheless, the story became about the harrassment/intimidation/control practised by the co$ with regards to the documentary - and this in itself made it a very interesting snapshot into the movement.

But i would love to see a well done BBC investigative documentary -

this is the sort of standard we used to get....this is a 1995 BBC documenary The Big Story - in which they get hidden cameras into the London HQ...

rD9bCdHqU3s

[wahrheit]

On entering his hotel, his crew were already filming (when Tommy showed up in the lobby). Is it BBC SOP to film when entering a hotel at the end of the day? Did he know already that Tommy was there?

Very good question. I certainly don't know what happened that night, but having worked for TV quite a few years, the answer might (might!) be quite simple.


You are on a trip with your team, all stay at the same hotel. While the camera crew, producer, host etc. are out of house, Joanne Doe stays at the hotel and works the phone and fax and stuff. You return to the hotel, and on the way there your phone rings, it's Joanne Doe telling you that the Scientology guys are downstairs in the lobby. You discuss it, and decide to better have the camera rolling, let's see what happens.


Yeah, I just made that up. But the explanation might be as simple as that.

[Moochie]

i<snipped>
But i would love to see a well done BBC investigative documentary -

this is the sort of standard we used to get....this is a 1995 BBC documenary The Big Story - in which they get hidden cameras into the London HQ...

rD9bCdHqU3s


Why does every YT link of yours that I've tried bring me back to the forum?

M.

[andyandy]

it probably is fair to say that complete journalistic integrity wasn't upheld...

this comment from the guardian blog....which checks out....

Rum trout i'm on it too - SERIOUS OVERDUB MISCHIEF DISCOVERED!

go here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HGM8DSnYh0
when tommy is walking away from sweeeney, sweeny talks about having a right to report stuff
but in the panorama aired last night (on the website at 14:33 in to the show), he says something totally, totally different
in exactly the same scene

On panorama he says (as tommy walks away) "if people say to me that they think what you claim to be a religion is in fact a cult, i havea right to report that.. i've got a right to report that tommy"

on you tube he says "I am a British subject...not an american citizen and in my country we have freedom of speech, I have a right to report that, I've got a right to report that Tommy.."

not massively different - but certainly a misreprentation of what actually happened and what was was actually said.

[Rrose Selavy]

I think it was edited right up to the day following "events" - there was a preview clip somewhere of Sweeney asking Cruise at a premiere if Cos was a "cult" which didn't (I think) make the final cut.

[andyandy]

Why does every YT link of yours that I've tried bring me back to the forum?

M.


do they? They all work for me - i check them....

either your JREF account is knackered, or mine is.....:D

here is the BBC documentary web link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD9bCdHqU3s&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fforums%2Erandi%2Eorg%2Fshowthrea d%2Ephp%3Fp%3D2606000%26posted%3D1%23post2606000)i nstead

and

part one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9psX5SlXb_g&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fforums%2Erandi%2Eorg%2Fshowthrea d%2Ephp%3Fp%3D2606000%26posted%3D1%23post2606000) of the scientology rebuttal

part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1iCI3iykYM&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fforums%2Erandi%2Eorg%2Fshowthrea d%2Ephp%3Fp%3D2606000%26posted%3D1%23post2606000)

part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtp1y_IkLag&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fforums%2Erandi%2Eorg%2Fshowthrea d%2Ephp%3Fp%3D2606000%26posted%3D1%23post2606000)

maybe someone else could try? See what happens....

[wahrheit]

The Youtube tags used by andyandy work just fine. Adding the complete URL to the post sometimes might help with certain browsers and stuff, though.

[Dredred]

this is a 1995 BBC documenary The Big Story - in which they get hidden cameras into the London HQ...

rD9bCdHqU3s
That video was a great piece of investigative journalism...

Shocking to see how people's minds are being wiped in order to make them spend all their money to undergo more mind-wiping.

[Moochie]

The Youtube tags used by andyandy work just fine. Adding the complete URL to the post sometimes might help with certain browsers and stuff, though.

I've worked out what it is. The way andyandy references the YT clips doesn't work in my Firefox nor IE7 if Block Popup Windows is checked. Others' YT references work just fine in the same circumstances.

M.

[Moochie]

do they? They all work for me - i check them....

either your JREF account is knackered, or mine is.....:D

here is the BBC documentary web link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD9bCdHqU3s&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fforums%2Erandi%2Eorg%2Fshowthrea d%2Ephp%3Fp%3D2606000%26posted%3D1%23post2606000)i nstead

and

part one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9psX5SlXb_g&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fforums%2Erandi%2Eorg%2Fshowthrea d%2Ephp%3Fp%3D2606000%26posted%3D1%23post2606000) of the scientology rebuttal

part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1iCI3iykYM&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fforums%2Erandi%2Eorg%2Fshowthrea d%2Ephp%3Fp%3D2606000%26posted%3D1%23post2606000)

part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtp1y_IkLag&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fforums%2Erandi%2Eorg%2Fshowthrea d%2Ephp%3Fp%3D2606000%26posted%3D1%23post2606000)

maybe someone else could try? See what happens....


Thanks. I've looked at the "rebuttal" and found it was anything but. Much of what they showed Sweeney's crew filming wasn't actually in Panorama. Seems the mutants went off half cocked.

M.

[HarryKeogh]

this is the sort of standard we used to get....this is a 1995 BBC documenary The Big Story - in which they get hidden cameras into the London HQ...

rD9bCdHqU3s

I found this documentary to be much, much better than the one from last night.

I recognized the course the reporter took. "Success through Communication". I took that in '91 or '92 (and I did a few dozen hours of auditing...the auditing was free as I was the subject for an auditor in training). I'm quite glad it ended there and only cost me a couple of hundred dollars.

[Foster Zygote]

Why does everyone keep making fun of "enturbulate"? It's a perfectly cromulent word.

[juninho]

Why does everyone keep making fun of "enturbulate"? It's a perfectly cromulent word.
I too don't see the reason for all these contrafibularities over the use of this word.

[Big Les]

The whole thing leaves me pericombobulated. I have yet to watch the 1995 documentary, but it ought to make a nice counterpoint to the Sci propaganda DVD I liberated from the wastebasket at work the other day.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

it probably is fair to say that complete journalistic integrity wasn't upheld...

this comment from the guardian blog....which checks out....



not massively different - but certainly a misreprentation of what actually happened and what was was actually said.

Funnily enough I noticed that too - but not from YouTube. The clip shown on BBC Breakfast had the same difference from the programme which was shown in the evening. I too thought that was very strange.

[Rrose Selavy]

For a strangely compelling piece of propaganda see the forbidden "Orientation" video - Google it - unless Cos have got it pulled.

[Professor Yaffle]

For a strangely compelling piece of propaganda see the forbidden "Orientation" video - Google it - unless Cos have got it pulled.

seems to have been pulled.

[Big Les]

I find it astounding that many people could get to various stages of Scientology indoctrination, manage to leave for whatever reason, and then continue to seek the same BS somewhere else. If they realise what a charlatan Hubbard was and how crazy the whole thing is, how can they still believe parts (if not all) of it?

See this thread (http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=43) on the ex-Sci forum to see what I mean.

[ObscureReferenceMan]

Why does everyone keep making fun of "enturbulate"? It's a perfectly cromulent word.

You beat me to it (http://www.savage-comedy.com/Introubulate)...

[andyandy]

Funnily enough I noticed that too - but not from YouTube. The clip shown on BBC Breakfast had the same difference from the programme which was shown in the evening. I too thought that was very strange.

on BBC 5 live in the morning they also played the audio from the "I'm a British citizen" version...they must have had a late editorial change of heart....

the "I'm a British citizen don't you know" did come across as a bit pompous, but to overdub to pretend he actually said something else is not good practice - and it does cast some doubt over the integrity of the documentary approach....which isn't what you want, especially when the co$ is determined to attack you over that very same charge....

[Moochie]

I found this documentary to be much, much better than the one from last night.

I recognized the course the reporter took. "Success through Communication". I took that in '91 or '92 (and I did a few dozen hours of auditing...the auditing was free as I was the subject for an auditor in training). I'm quite glad it ended there and only cost me a couple of hundred dollars.

Yeah, I think this was better than Panorama. In this one you got an idea how potentially devastating messing with someone's mind can be, especially someone already vulnerable.

Words cannot express my feelings about these miserable excuses for human beings. For that reason, even a poor documentary is better than nothing.

M.

[Walk The Line]

I found this video on digg, a 48 Hours story which goes into detail about how Ellie Perkins, a committed Scientologist who had a mentally disturbed son, refused to let him go see a psychiatrist and how it cost Ellie her life (as her son murdered her):

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkmax_scientology-the-elli-perkins-story

There were a lot of intriguing aspects to this story. How Scientologists deal with mentally ill when they cut off psychiatry, how they react when one of their own commits a gruesome murder, etc.

For me, the most disturbing part was that the critic of psychiatry they found, Jeffrey Schaler, is a professor at the university I got a Master's from (American University)! At about 27 minutes 10 seconds into the video, he starts talking about how there is NO mental illness. "Since there is no such thing as mental illness, there is no such thing as a medicine for mental illness." WTF??

Jeffrey Schaler is a professor in American University's Justice, Law, and Society department, not Psychology. After consulting with American University's course catalog, it appears he has a Masters in Education, not a Masters in Psychology (I haven't been able to find what his PhD is in). Also, according to his website, he gave the keynote speech at the opening of the Scientology museum, "Psychiatry, an Industry of Death."

Disheartening, to say the least.

[Foster Zygote]

The whole "what are you afraid of?" thing just kills me. They're the ones who won't let anyone video their party. What are they afraid will be made known to the public?

[Rrose Selavy]

From Orientation:


You are at the threshold of your next trillion years. You will live it, in shrivelling agonised darkness or you will live it triumphantly in the light - the choice is yours, not ours. If you this minute say I will, for better or for worse, go on in scientology, you will open the door to your own future. If you say otherwise you slam tomorrow shut in your own face. I’m sorry, but that’s the way it really is.
If you leave this room after seeing this film, and walk out and never mention scientology again, you are perfectly free to do so. It would be stupid, but you can do it. You can also dive off a bridge or blow your brains out. That is your choice.

[ThatSoundAgain]

Argh! Whatever happened to good rhetoric? I don't get how you can build a cult on transparent crap such as this.

Why can't their propaganda be a bit more moving and elegant so it is at least possible to enjoy it at some level?

[Questioninggeller]

I found this documentary to be much, much better than the one from last night.

I recognized the course the reporter took. "Success through Communication". I took that in '91 or '92 (and I did a few dozen hours of auditing...the auditing was free as I was the subject for an auditor in training). I'm quite glad it ended there and only cost me a couple of hundred dollars.

Any harassment after you quit?

[HarryKeogh]

Any harassment after you quit?

No. The closest I got to being harassed was two Scientologists coming to my house (when I was still into Scientology) and spending several hours trying to convince me to sign up and be a staff member because our org was going to go St. Hill size (it never came close) and exciting things were happening. Thankfully, I passed though I actually remember contemplating it. Shudder!

My brother (who got me interested in it) who was a senior member of the org left after his staff contract was up. He quickly lost interest after he left (I think he was there for 3 or 4 years working 16 hour days for less than a hundred bucks a week...they're volunteers after all) and the weirdest (and saddest) thing that happened to him was getting letters and e-mails from the Scientologists there (some were his friends who he recruited into Scientology) saying they were disconnecting from him. He was also labelled a supressive person (simply for not being into it anymore...he wasn't speaking out against it).

And I never heard of the Xenu story until many years after I was out of it. If I did I would like to think I never would have stepped into the org.

[Moochie]

Argh! Whatever happened to good rhetoric? I don't get how you can build a cult on transparent crap such as this.

Why can't their propaganda be a bit more moving and elegant so it is at least possible to enjoy it at some level?

When you look at sites like this:

http://shuttingthedoor.zoomshare.com/3.html

and follow up some of the links, especially to the message boards, it becomes very obvious that this cult targets individuals who are searching for something to help them cope with often chaotic lives, and who lack some of the essential skills needed to see through dreck like $cientology.

M.

[wahrheit]

*snip* ... it becomes very obvious that this cult targets individuals who are searching for something to help them cope with often chaotic lives, and who lack some of the essential skills needed to see through dreck like $cientology.

M.

Seconded.

As sad and over-simplifying your statement might be, it is exactly what I personally observed when some friends got sucked into that 'church'. (It was some idiot pyramid scheme thing.)

[fredcarr]

http://media.freedommag.org/media/panorama-exposed-350kbps.wmv

Here is the Scientology video.

(Not sure if this was posted already. Couldn't find it at least.)

Fred

PS "I'm curious if you all think it is good manners to continually accuse people of being brainwashed?"

[scratchy]

[URL]
PS "I'm curious if you all think it is good manners to continually accuse people of being brainwashed?"
No, good manners is to not say what is obviously true if someone is going to be pissed about it. But good manners isnt all that counts.

[Moochie]

Seconded.

As sad and over-simplifying your statement might be, it is exactly what I personally observed when some friends got sucked into that 'church'. (It was some idiot pyramid scheme thing.)

I pride myself on having been able to stop at least three people from becoming involved with these morons. :)

There's a wealth of hilarious video available at:

http://www.xenutv.com/originals/

It's a good place to show prospective joiners what caliber of human some of these idiots are.

M.

[andyandy]

looks like the orientation vids have been pulled :(

but this did come up..

WPNsnuNM8L4

a 10 minute segment of a co$ propaganda piece about the human mind, and how terrible psychiatry is....

It's part of one their courses.....wonder how much it costs? :rolleyes:


plenty more from the same series (if you can stomach it :) )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPNsnuNM8L4

[wahrheit]

I pride myself on having been able to stop at least three people from becoming involved with these morons. :)

Same over here! Damn, are we good guys! ;) :D

I helped my friends with legal advice I got from a top lawyer who knew CoS very well, they finally got out of those pyramid scheme contracts. It was from that lawyer I learned all this was in fact about Scientology, I had not realised that myself before.

It was a very creepy experience, though. These people are not fun, to put it mildly.

[Moochie]

http://media.freedommag.org/media/panorama-exposed-350kbps.wmv

Here is the Scientology video.

(Not sure if this was posted already. Couldn't find it at least.)

Fred

PS "I'm curious if you all think it is good manners to continually accuse people of being brainwashed?"

See my answer here:

http://www.xenutv.com/interviews/otpanel.htm

It's video of some very interesting OT7s who've become emancipated enough to talk freely about it.

M.

[Mark A. Siefert]

http://media.freedommag.org/media/panorama-exposed-350kbps.wmv

Here is the Scientology video.

(Not sure if this was posted already. Couldn't find it at least.)

Fred

PS "I'm curious if you all think it is good manners to continually accuse people of being brainwashed?"

Was it good manners on the CoS's part when they locked Lisa McPherson, a woman you have previously claimed to know, in a room in the Fort Harrison Hotel for 17 days? When she was too far gone from dehydration (I imagine the cockroach bites didn't help either), was it good manners for her so-called caretakers to bypass closer hospitals just so they could get her to a Scientologist doctor who worked 45 minutes from Clearwater? Was it good manners to tell Lisa's family that she died of meningitis or a blood clot when it was clear she died of neglect? Was it good manners for the Scios to intimidate medical examiner Joan Wood with law suits until she changed Lisa's cause of death from "undetermined" to "accident" so the state would be forced to drop the criminal charges?

Interesting etiquette you Scios seem to have? You people are all well mannered as the Mafia.

[andyandy]

Was it good manners on the CoS's part when they locked Lisa McPherson, a woman you have previously claimed to know, in a room in the Fort Harrison Hotel for 17 days? When she was too far gone from dehydration (I imagine the cockroach bites didn't help either), was it good manners for her so-called caretakers to bypass closer hospitals just so they could get her to a Scientologist doctor who worked 45 minutes from Clearwater? Was it good manners to tell Lisa's family that she died of meningitis or a blood clot when it was clear she died of neglect? Was it good manners for the Scios to intimidate medical examiner Joan Wood with law suits until she changed Lisa's cause of death from "undetermined" to "accident" so the state would be forced to drop the criminal charges?

Interesting etiquette you Scios seem to have? You people are all well mannered as the Mafia.


I think fred was being ironic....that's a question that was directed at sweeny in the panorma-exposed vid .....hence the quotation marks....:)

[andyandy]

http://www.xenutv.com/interviews/otpanel.htm

It's video of some very interesting OT7s who've become emancipated enough to talk freely about it.

M.

very interesting video....the explanation of the narrowing of self especially so - how one initially recieves a "high" which one then chases to have repeated....but how instead there is a progressive worsening of mental/emotional state....but that by this stage you are so committed to the co$ that you delude yourself into believing it's your own fault rather than the church's....

[Big Les]

I've just watched the DVD ""An Introduction to Scientology", which is basically a 1966 interview with Hubbard himself. I did my best to put myself in the shoes of any kind of potential "believer", and I must admit that despite being an ugly rubber-faced git, Hubbard is strangely compelling. Casting aside critical thought and high school science, he's also utterly believable. There's very little hint at the bizarre basis to the whole thing, and its presented as a very modern, self-directed, philosophical religion, that can free you and be taken any way you wish.

We know that's not true, but this is a powerful propaganda tool. I can easily see how many different kinds of people could fall for the pre-OTIII stuff with the auditing etc.

[ThatSoundAgain]

When you look at sites like this:

url snipped for lack of posts on my part

and follow up some of the links, especially to the message boards, it becomes very obvious that this cult targets individuals who are searching for something to help them cope with often chaotic lives, and who lack some of the essential skills needed to see through dreck like $cientology.

M.

Yup, I do know that it works, and I can see why. My post above was just an (alas) rhetorical question, lamenting the crudeness and negativity of it.

[HappyDance]

I think fred was being ironic....that's a question that was directed at sweeny in the panorma-exposed vid .....hence the quotation marks....:)

fredcarr probably wasn't being ironic. He puts quotation marks around postscripts in all his posts. Here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2361057#post2361057) he says it's convention, but it's not one I'm familiar with.

[Mark A. Siefert]

I think fred was being ironic....that's a question that was directed at sweeny in the panorma-exposed vid .....hence the quotation marks....:)

No, fredcarr is our local Scientology troll. He's serious. When he first rolled onto the scene, I have sworn to keep bringing up Lisa McPhereson, whom he claimed he knew, until he actually answers me about how he feels about how his little pyramid-scheme/ufo-cult killed her.


Apperently, he blocked me, or just plain ignoring the bad body thetan ju ju my suppressive personality is generating.

[Checkmite]

This is getting more enturbulating by the minute.

[Explorer]

Watching the whole show I cannot blame the guy for shouting at him, it was quite satisfying to see a $cientologist learn what it's like to be on the recieving end of such scare tactics.

I watched Tommy Wallis, the one on the end of Sweeny's shouting very carefully.

Wallis seemed to go through a very rehearsed choreography of body language. Firstly standing his ground at normal conversation distance with fixed and unmoved eye contact with Sweeny. Then he moved agressively, well inside the personal space distance spouting his rhetoric, but keeping his eye contact without flinching while the shouting was going on. He seemed totally unmoved by the shouting, as if he had been trained to switch off and ignore aggressive responses. He continued talking all the time the shouting was going on without stopping for breath it seemed, even though he must have known that his speech was drowned out by the shouting.

Either Wallis is a very unusual guy and behaves like that naturally, or he has undergone rigorous training to counter intrusive interviews and journalists like Sweeny. On the two occasions in BBC's Panorama programme that I saw with Sweeny and Wallis together, the latter, after he finished his own talking he simply walks away and evades further challenges.

This must be a very frustrating technique for journalists, even tough ones like Sweeny, to cope with. Sweeny chose his last resort technique to shout over Wallis as an attempt to get his own message through the unmoved and robotic responses of the scientologist, and of course in the process lost the high ground.

It is difficult to know how in the future to deal with this technique, but if investigative journalism is going to scrutinise scientology, it is going to have to use far more subtle techniques than simply shouting to get pass guys like Wallis.

[andyandy]

No, fredcarr is our local Scientology troll. He's serious. When he first rolled onto the scene, I have sworn to keep bringing up Lisa McPhereson, whom he claimed he knew, until he actually answers me about how he feels about how his little pyramid-scheme/ufo-cult killed her.


Apperently, he blocked me, or just plain ignoring the bad body thetan ju ju my suppressive personality is generating.

oh really? :blush:

[ObscureReferenceMan]

This is getting more enturbulating by the minute.

It's a perfectly cromulent topic...

[Paul]

Apperently, he blocked me, or just plain ignoring the bad body thetan ju ju my suppressive personality is generating.In that case, fredcarr:

Was it good manners on the CoS's part when they locked Lisa McPherson, a woman you have previously claimed to know, in a room in the Fort Harrison Hotel for 17 days? When she was too far gone from dehydration (I imagine the cockroach bites didn't help either), was it good manners for her so-called caretakers to bypass closer hospitals just so they could get her to a Scientologist doctor who worked 45 minutes from Clearwater? Was it good manners to tell Lisa's family that she died of meningitis or a blood clot when it was clear she died of neglect? Was it good manners for the Scios to intimidate medical examiner Joan Wood with law suits until she changed Lisa's cause of death from "undetermined" to "accident" so the state would be forced to drop the criminal charges?

[Moochie]

very interesting video....the explanation of the narrowing of self especially so - how one initially recieves a "high" which one then chases to have repeated....but how instead there is a progressive worsening of mental/emotional state....but that by this stage you are so committed to the co$ that you delude yourself into believing it's your own fault rather than the church's....

Yes. I think it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that some people can and do become addicted to the "high." Pretty much how any crack dealer captures a market.

M.

[Moochie]

No, fredcarr is our local Scientology troll. He's serious. When he first rolled onto the scene, I have sworn to keep bringing up Lisa McPhereson, whom he claimed he knew, until he actually answers me about how he feels about how his little pyramid-scheme/ufo-cult killed her.


Apperently, he blocked me, or just plain ignoring the bad body thetan ju ju my suppressive personality is generating.

I think freddy has me permanently on ignore, going by the last time our paths crossed. He's just a shill for $cientology, and won't answer any pertinent questions.

M.

[fredcarr]

http://www.bbcpanorama-exposed.org/

In case anyone has difficulty with the above link this may work better.

Fred

[Thing]

Fred,

Sone people have suggested that Scientology is a cult. Do you think this is a fair portrayal of your religion?

[magdalena_orion]

Like has already been said, I didn't think Monday's Panorama was a particularly good piece of investigative journalism. However iirc it was meant to be a follow-up to the 1987 Panorama programme on Scientology, which was a lot better and is definitely worth watching, and was meant to examine if it had cleaned up it's act like the CoS have claimed.

Has anyone seen the 1968 interview of L. Ron? That guy just seems a little bit on the crazy side. Go to xenutv.com/int/shrinkingworld.htm to read a transcript.

Also this is a good little presentation of some of the rather scary things that the CoS have got up to:
theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com

[scratchy]

http://www.bbcpanorama-exposed.org/

In case anyone has difficulty with the above link this may work better.

Fred
Fred, scientology is a cult, and among cults its among the most evil that can be found. I know you are aware of this, even if you do not admit that even to yourself. It has its claws deep in your brain just now, but sooner or later you will come out of it. The sooner the better, before you are totally eaten and just being spit out to rot. To us here, whatever you say, its just the brainwash speaking. No one is going to actually debate you, knowing this.

You decide.

Get out of it.

Now.

[Big Les]

Like has already been said, I didn't think Monday's Panorama was a particularly good piece of investigative journalism. However iirc it was meant to be a follow-up to the 1987 Panorama programme on Scientology, which was a lot better and is definitely worth watching, and was meant to examine if it had cleaned up it's act like the CoS have claimed.

Has anyone seen the 1968 interview of L. Ron? That guy just seems a little bit on the crazy side. Go to xenutv.com/int/shrinkingworld.htm to read a transcript.

Also this is a good little presentation of some of the rather scary things that the CoS have got up to:
theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com

See my post above - they are giving copies of that interview to academic institutions at the moment, presumably to help counter the Panorama programme. He's actually at his least nutty in that interview!

The Big Story documentary is indeed MUCH more insightful - check it out. The author featured in it (and IIRC in Panorama), Miller, wrote a biography of Hubbard, "Bare-Faced Messiah". It's hosted by Operation Clambake here (I only realised this today):

http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/bfm/bfmconte.htm

[Soapy Sam]

As easy money making scams, one might expect "religions" to become takeover targets for organised crime.
I wonder what would happen if the mafia took over a church.
I wonder if they have?

[Kilgore Trout]

"Yo, Frankie. We gots anudder guy widda sign out front. What say youse take 'em out back and, yaknow, audit 'em? Real slow like."

[Mark A. Siefert]

http://www.bbcpanorama-exposed.org/

In case anyone has difficulty with the above link this may work better.

Fred

Wow! That was fast! I suppose anyone could crank out attack website tout de suite if they had millions of dollars swindled from the gullible or desperate.

...Like your friend Lisa McPherson. Before she died (her body dehydrated and covered with cockroach bites and sores) she had only $151 too her name after donating anywhere between $50,000 to $100,000 over the course of two years.

How do you feel about that fredcarr?

[Paul]

In case anyone has difficulty with the above link this may work better.Any answer to the opinion that Scientology is a cult and ol' Ron was an habitual liar and fantasist?

No?

That's OK we'll just assume that its all true and you don't want to comment.

[Mark A. Siefert]

As easy money making scams, one might expect "religions" to become takeover targets for organised crime.
I wonder what would happen if the mafia took over a church.
I wonder if they have?

What? You didn't see Godfather III?

For more on Co$ thugish activities I suggest viewing this. (WARNING GRAPHIC CONTENT!)

rCGP-0545EU

[JQH]

I agree with Big Les that Bare Faced Messiah is well worth reading. Not only does it detail Hubbard's lies about his background, it gives lots of other info about the way $ciento£ogy operates and how it treats dissenters in the ranks.

[Architect]

You know, people (or in this case the Co$) only mount this kind of defence when they're worried. Here about what is a fairly deep expose of some aspects of their cult by an organisation which is well respected worldwide.

Or in other words, the Beeb must be doing something right!

[magdalena_orion]

See my post above - they are giving copies of that interview to academic institutions at the moment, presumably to help counter the Panorama programme. He's actually at his least nutty in that interview!

The Big Story documentary is indeed MUCH more insightful - check it out. The author featured in it (and IIRC in Panorama), Miller, wrote a biography of Hubbard, "Bare-Faced Messiah". It's hosted by Operation Clambake here (I only realised this today):

clambake.org/archive/books/bfm/bfmconte.htm

Really? He seems fairly nutty to me, but that could just be my preconceived opinion. I'd love to have a look at that DVD and see how believable they are. As you say some of what they put forth can appear convincing, especially when they talk about techniques such as auditing, which are based on, and are crude forms of , psychotherapy methods.

I've just watched the Big Story (the one that was originally broadcast on ITV on 28th November 1996) and agree it's the most insightful programme on the CoS.

I'll have to have a read of that book, when I have the time, as it's seems to be a good expose.

[Big Les]

Really? He seems fairly nutty to me, but that could just be my preconceived opinion. I'd love to have a look at that DVD and see how believable they are. As you say some of what they put forth can appear convincing, especially when they talk about techniques such as auditing, which are based on, and are crude forms of , psychotherapy methods.

I've just watched the Big Story (the one that was originally broadcast on ITV on 28th November 1996) and agree it's the most insightful programme on the CoS.

I'll have to have a read of that book, when I have the time, as it's seems to be a good expose.

Doh! Sorry - different video. The stuff he comes out with in the promo DVD (which is copyrighted 1966, not 68) is no nuttier than any religious type might say. In other words it's carefully prepared (the interviewer is another scientologist) and judged to attract the uncritically thinking spiritual person, without letting on just how nuts either he, or his "religion" actually is.

The black and white one you're talking about, with his silly hat on is much crazier!

The book is great - Miller deserves a medal for both publishing it, and then allowing it to be put online.

[Rrose Selavy]

The interview, where he is asked if he could be mad, was featured in a World in Action prog from 1968, - see it here:

"The Shrinking World of LRH

The only time Hubbard allowed an outside crew to interview him.
"World in Action" - Granada Television - England

http://www.xenutv.com/int/index.html

[magdalena_orion]

Doh! Sorry - different video. The stuff he comes out with in the promo DVD (which is copyrighted 1966, not 68) is no nuttier than any religious type might say. In other words it's carefully prepared (the interviewer is another scientologist) and judged to attract the uncritically thinking spiritual person, without letting on just how nuts either he, or his "religion" actually is.

The black and white one you're talking about, with his silly hat on is much crazier!

The book is great - Miller deserves a medal for both publishing it, and then allowing it to be put online.

I probably should have been clearer, and stated the title: "The Shrinking World of L. Ron Hubbard". It really shows how unhinged he really was.

The silly hat is probably the best thing about L. Ron!

I agree Miller deserves a medal for bravery, considering how those cultists react to any form of criticism.

[gtc]

I didn't think Scientologists were supposed to view the internet, let alone post on a forum like this.

[xingyifa]

Has the Randi foundation taken any sort of public stand against scientology specifically? I would think, based on the sorts of psuedo scientific mumbo jumbo claims they have made about e-meters, that a fairly straightforward test could be proposed that would allow them to walk off with the million dollars.
Why not go after scientology in the same manner as sylvia browne. What sylvia browne does is morally reprehensible, but even for a cult, scientology is just sick.

[Big Les]

Randi has commented from time to time, but doesn't seem to have dived in, as it were. Much as it would be awesome for him to do so, he only has so much time, and they have already refused point blank to submit to any kind of testing. Can't say I blame him anyway; they could really make his life difficult.

[Checkmite]

Has the Randi foundation taken any sort of public stand against scientology specifically? I would think, based on the sorts of psuedo scientific mumbo jumbo claims they have made about e-meters, that a fairly straightforward test could be proposed that would allow them to walk off with the million dollars.
Why not go after scientology in the same manner as sylvia browne. What sylvia browne does is morally reprehensible, but even for a cult, scientology is just sick.

Unlike all the others, who cannot help but sound pretentious when they say things like, "oh, I don't need a million dollars", Scientology really can afford to laugh the prize money off.

[Big Al]

"Yo, Frankie. We gots anudder guy widda sign out front. What say youse take 'em out back and, yaknow, audit 'em? Real slow like."

"These guys, uh, they're not bad people. Maybe we outta give them a couple of days to think it over.
"No? Audit 'em now? Well, OK. You are a vicious bastard, Hubbard. I'm glad you're dead! HAHAHAHAHA! I'm glad you're dead! AHAHAHAHA!" (wipes tears of mirth from eyes)

[brodski]

As easy money making scams, one might expect "religions" to become takeover targets for organised crime.
I wonder what would happen if the mafia took over a church.
I wonder if they have?


Did you see The Godfather part III?
(if so I’m sorry ;) )

[Moochie]

What? You didn't see Godfather III?

For more on Co$ thugish activities I suggest viewing this. (WARNING GRAPHIC CONTENT!)

rCGP-0545EU


Good one, Mark. I would think most ranking $cientologists are PTS Type X (or greater) to the community at large.

M.

[Moochie]

I agree with Big Les that Bare Faced Messiah is well worth reading. Not only does it detail Hubbard's lies about his background, it gives lots of other info about the way $ciento£ogy operates and how it treats dissenters in the ranks.

Agreed. This book is a small but significant part of the arsenal against $cientology I use to dissuade potential recruits. It's usually enough. :)

M.

[fredcarr]

Fred,

Sone people have suggested that Scientology is a cult. Do you think this is a fair portrayal of your religion?

lol!

Fred

[Thing]

lol!

Fred
Well Fred, for what it's worth, in my opinion you're a better ambassador for scientology than Tommy Davis (Davies?). Is his faith so fragile that he can't stand to hear the factually true statement that some people have thought that it's a cult? Can you imagine the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Dalai Lama responding like that to a similar statement about their faiths?

My theory is that he's adapting the 'tech', he's gone from not reading past a word he doesn't understand to not listening past a word he doesn't like.

[Paul]

lol!

FredI'll take that as a barely intelligible snort of agreement.

Excellent, it's settled, fredcarr thinks scientology is a dangerous cult.

[fredcarr]

Thing - Have you ever had to go through an interview process similar to this from a journalist?

Not that I was at this one but Mr. Sweeney sure seemed to have a desire to continue to ask this question from everyone in my church. It was extremely insulting and really a pointless question. If I am brainwashed then I probably don't know that I am. I wouldn't be suprised if Mr. Sweeney is fully aware that Scientologists aren't brainwashed at all but it sure makes for a delicious controversy which translates to ratings.

What was the point of Mr. Sweeny hollering out those insulting questions at a movie premier? Why would he tell Scientologists tha they were brainwashed, all their fellow Scientologists were brainwashed, their families were brainwashed including their mothers? So if I get mad at someone for continuing to insult me this is somehow considered not okay but he gets to have free reign to ask this question?

I don't even suggest that any member of a religion may be wrong for having the beliefs they do. Whether I agree with them or not its simply bad manners at best. At worst it incites others to threats of violence or actual violence.

In Mr. Hubbards Way to Happiness he dicsusses the subject of religion in a chapter entitled "Respect the religious beliefs of others."

http://www.freedommag.org/english/irish/issue01/page05.htm

"Tolerance is a good cornerstone on which to build human relationships. When one views the slaughter and suffering caused by religious intolerance throughout all the history of man and into modern times, one can see that intolerance is a very nonsurvival activity.


Religious tolerance does not mean one cannot express his own beliefs. It does mean that seeking to undermine or attack the religious faith and beliefs of another has always been a short road to trouble.


Philosophers since the time of ancient Greece have disputed with one another about the nature of God, man and the universe. The opinions of authorities ebb and flow. Just now the philosophies of “mechanism” and “materialism” — dating as far back as Egypt and Greece — are the fad: they seek to assert that all is matter and overlook that, neat as their explanations of evolution may be, they still do not rule out additional factors that might be at work, that might be merely using such things as evolution. They are, today, the “official” philosophies and are even taught in schools. They have their own zealots who attack the beliefs and religions of others: the result can be intolerance and contention.

If all the brightest minds since the fifth century B.C. or before have never been able to agree on the subject of religion or antireligion, it is an arena of combat between people that one would do well to stay out of.
In this sea of contention, one bright principle has emerged: the right to believe as one chooses.


“Faith” and “belief” do not necessarily surrender to logic: they cannot even be declared to be illogical. They can be things quite apart.


Any advice one might give another on this subject is safest when it simply asserts the right to believe as one chooses. One is at liberty to hold up his own beliefs for acceptance. One is at risk when he seeks to assault the beliefs of others, much more so when he attacks and seeks to harm others because of their religious convictions.


Man, since the dawn of the species, has taken great consolation and joy in his religions. Even the “mechanist” and “materialist” of today sound much like the priests of old as they spread their dogma.


Men without faith are a pretty sorry lot. They can even be given something to have faith in. But when they have religious beliefs, respect them.

The way to happiness can become contentious when one fails to respect the religious beliefs of others."



Of course if Mr. Sweeney had simply asked Scientologists what their religious beliefs were then they would have hardly been controversial, thus not newsworthy.



Fred

[fredcarr]

Fred,

Some people have suggested that Scientology is a cult. Do you think this is a fair portrayal of your religion?


Paul - I took this question as a joke because this is the exact thing that Mr. Sweeny kept asking over and over. Thats why I was laughing.

Of course since I am brainwashed you should discount any and everything I say. That would be the intelligent thing to do.

btw -It really boggles the mind to see a place of such supposed skepticism be so rude at the same time.

Fred

[wahrheit]

If I am brainwashed then I probably don't know that I am.

:eusa_think:

[fredcarr]

Can you imagine the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Dalai Lama responding like that to a similar statement about their faiths?


Not really. It is hard to imagine someone asking the Dalai Lama if he thinks he is in a "sinister brainwashing cult?" Maybe I should ask some of my neighbors that very question and see how they would respond. Then again I guess I won't since they are my neighbors and we do have to live with each in the same community. I'm suprised people don't see it for the barbarism that it is to do such a thing but then again I've been hearing that sort of thing since I was a kid.

I think my favorite threat was I should be castrated so my kids don't become Scientologists.

I really like the hate mail that we received. If you stop the video at the link I provided you can read parts of it. Pretty vile stuff. Preaching hate and intolerance will always lead to things like this. Sometimes people will act on such things. Then lives are lost and/or destroyed.

I hope none of my fellow Scientologists are hurt as a result of this latest smear campaign. (But if it happens I won't be suprised.) This is why I make it a point to follow the above precept "Respect the rReligious Beliefs of Others" in all my interpersonal realtionships. No matter the religion I will stand up for their right to be respected. I even stand up for the right for people to not have a religion. It's not always enjoyable to do so but I'm generally at peace with myself for doing so and that is worth all the slings and arrows that are thrown my way.

Sincerely,

Fred

[jon]

Not really. It is hard to imagine someone asking the Dalai Lama if he thinks he is in a "sinister brainwashing cult?" Maybe I should ask some of my neighbors that very question and see how they would respond. Then again I guess I won't since they are my neighbors and we do have to live with each in the same community. I'm suprised people don't see it for the barbarism that it is to do such a thing but then again I've been hearing that sort of thing since I was a kid.

The Church of England has certainly been asked (and answered) this type of question about some of its activities - for example, the Nine O'Clock Service in Sheffield took on some cult-like characteristics, and was criticised for this. Rather than refusing to answer questions, or trying to smear or silence its critics, the CoE (and NOS members) acted to deal with the cult-like characteristics of the organisation.

When fairly obvious problems - like those revealed by Lisa McPherson's premature death - become apparent, one would expect a reputable organisation to be willing to investigate these, and answer questions about these problems, in order to ensure that similar tragedies do not recur. However, the CoE offered a much more open and effective response to (significant, but less serious) questions and problems raised by the NOS than the CoS gave following Lisa McPherson's death.

And I typed all that despite the fact that I'm generally pretty critical of the CoE :rolleyes:

[baron]

This is why I make it a point to follow the above precept "Respect the rReligious Beliefs of Others" in all my interpersonal realtionships.

Why? I for one have no compulsion to respect the crazy beliefs of the misguided, insane or corrupt. Maybe your altruism trumps my base level of morality, but take pity, I'm only on Thetan Level Kiss My Ass.

[andyandy]

Of course if Mr. Sweeney had simply asked Scientologists what their religious beliefs were then they would have hardly been controversial, thus not newsworthy.

Fred


Fred, the one fundamental question that you should ask [or at least nurture as a nagging doubt] is why would a religion whose primary motivation was the individual, make the payment of vast sums of money a pre-requisite for enlightenment?

I am by no means a paradigm of virtue - and yet, if i had found a way to enlightenment then i genuinely wouldn't charge a penny. Most of us have a basic desire to help other people - it seems abhorrent that such a high tariff would be placed on such freely disseminated information.

[Darat]

...snip...

Of course if Mr. Sweeney had simply asked Scientologists what their religious beliefs were then they would have hardly been controversial, thus not newsworthy.

Fred

If I start a new thread will you discuss your religious beliefs and the doctrines of Scientology (for instance questions a