Are other dimensions really possible?

[Minarvia]

Okay, I have been wondering about this for quite some time and now I have to ask you all - are other dimensions really possible? Let me explain what I mean.
I have been listening to "The Paracast" podcast and quite frequently the hosts and guests bring up the idea that "aliens" really could be crypto-terrestial (I hope I spelled that correctly), and therefore share this planet with us, but we are unable to perceive them. They say that this other species could be inter-deminsional and that the occassional UFO and/or alien sightings could be them flipping in and out of their dimension and into ours.
Is this really a possiblity? I don't mean super minute, as in Dawkins saying that God is "possible." Maybe I should say, are other dimensions probable?
Wikipedeia really didn't help me much, and I don't know where to do a search that doesn't just bring up the same topics that I am hearing on "The Paracast."
Any thoughts? Or should I just write to the hosts and say, "evidence?" :) I would ask over at their forum, but the few people there right now seem to be more believer than skeptic, and I want opinions from a community that I trust. ;)

[MelBrooksfan]

Well, I suppose anything can be possible. It being likely or probable is another matter, entirely.

[Just thinking]

I seriously doubt that aliens in some other (higher?) dimension inhabit our world along with us, as it just doesn't seem to make sense (at least to me). After all, the Earth is 3-dimensional (4 if we go with space-time) -- it would seem that if 4-dimensional creatures lived in a spacial 4-D universe, the Earth would be an insignificant surface to them. Think of a 2-dimensional plane anywhere in our universe, as an analogy. Virtually all of our universe would not have anything in contact with it -- only a small fraction would coincide with it. And what did wouldn't recognize it as having much use, as we would have in trying to live on a piece of paper.

[arthwollipot]

The multiple dimensions postulated by string theory do not have anything at all to do with this. It's common for people to claim that since string theory postulates multiple dimensions, there is evidence that this sort of thing can happen. There isn't - at least, not from string theory.

[athon]

It depends on what you mean by 'dimensions'. If you mean it in the sci-fi way, with other dimensions being like other realities, or other universes, there's no way of telling unless there is some form of interaction between realities (in which case, are they really 'separate' realities?).

If you mean other dimensions in a mathematical way, then yes, it's possible. But unlikely that aliens live there undetected, just like something can't exist in the second and third dimension here but not in the first.

Sagan once described a five-dimensional being moving through our four dimensions (three spacial and time) by explaining what a three dimensional being moving through two dimensions would be like; it would appear in two dimensional slices, like moving through a cat scan. The 'third' dimension of it would be impossible to see.

Likewise here, a fourth spacial dimension moving through our 3D world would appear in 3D with peculiar changes giving and idea of the 4th dimension as it 'passed through'. So, it is conceivable to have a 4D alien in our universe, I guess, but it wouldn't be invisible or anything. It would still look 3D to us.

Usually 'dimension' is a woo word nutters use to refer to some alternate reality where they can postulate anything and not have it touched by criticism.

Athon
(BTW, physicists here feel free to rip apart my description above)

[Just thinking]

Sagan once described a five-dimensional being moving through our four dimensions (three spacial and time) by explaining what a three dimensional being moving through two dimensions would be like; it would appear in two dimensional slices, like moving through a cat scan. The 'third' dimension of it would be impossible to see.

And it would change shape/size as it 'passed through' our 3-D world, much like a cross-sectional view of us would make if we could pass through a 2-D plane (like walking through a flat pane of glass without breaking it).

[fuelair]

It depends on what you mean by 'dimensions'. If you mean it in the sci-fi way, with other dimensions being like other realities, or other universes, there's no way of telling unless there is some form of interaction between realities (in which case, are they really 'separate' realities?).

If you mean other dimensions in a mathematical way, then yes, it's possible. But unlikely that aliens live there undetected, just like something can't exist in the second and third dimension here but not in the first.

Sagan once described a five-dimensional being moving through our four dimensions (three spacial and time) by explaining what a three dimensional being moving through two dimensions would be like; it would appear in two dimensional slices, like moving through a cat scan. The 'third' dimension of it would be impossible to see.

Likewise here, a fourth spacial dimension moving through our 3D world would appear in 3D with peculiar changes giving and idea of the 4th dimension as it 'passed through'. So, it is conceivable to have a 4D alien in our universe, I guess, but it wouldn't be invisible or anything. It would still look 3D to us.

Usually 'dimension' is a woo word nutters use to refer to some alternate reality where they can postulate anything and not have it touched by criticism.

Athon
(BTW, physicists here feel free to rip apart my description above)

As much as I admire Sagan, Abbott should be credited with that even earlier (suggest reading Flatland and the later Sphereland by him!!!

[athon]

As much as I admire Sagan, Abbott should be credited with that even earlier (suggest reading Flatland and the later Sphereland by him!!!

I read it in Demon Haunted World, and even then I was sure Sagan would have come across the description himself somewhere. But it would be an interesting thing to see. I still try to think of it myself. Weird.

Athon

[wahrheit]

Regarding the analogy of our 3D world compared to a "species" living in 2D, don't forget that if these 2D folks are smart, they can figure out that there must be a 3rd dimension if one of those 3D objects passes through their 2D plane. If a ball passes through their flat paper world, it would start with a dot, grow to a disc, and then become smaller again. From such an observation they could postulate a 3rd dimension without ever being able to "see" or experience that dimension.

That's where the theories come from that only because we can't see more than our 3D world, this does not necessarily mean there are no further dimensions.

You might want to check out Prof. Dr. Lisa Randall's webpage (http://www.physics.harvard.edu/people/facpages/randall.html), she has written on this topic. There's also a link to an interview with her hosted on Google video. (Note — I haven't seen that interview, nor do I have the expertise to comment on Randall's work. I merely found an article on multi-dimensions written by her in a magazine on cosmology.)

[Just thinking]

Regarding the analogy of our 3D world compared to a "species" living in 2D, don't forget that if these 2D folks are smart, they can figure out that there must be a 3rd dimension if one of those 3D objects passes through their 2D plane. If a ball passes through their flat paper world, it would start with a dot, grow to a disc, and then become smaller again. From such an observation they could postulate a 3rd dimension without ever being able to "see" or experience that dimension.

Indeed ... but it would not make their 2-D world of much use to the 3-D residents. The OP made reference to the Earth being populated in another dimension with aliens. This is the claim I find making little to no sense for reasons previously stated.

[BPSCG]

I read it in Demon Haunted World, and even then I was sure Sagan would have come across the description himself somewhere. But it would be an interesting thing to see. I still try to think of it myself. Weird.

AthonI remember first reading about it as a teenager, in physicist George Gamow's book, 1, 2, 3... Infinity, which I think was published in the 1950's.

While I understand what Gamow and Sagan were saying (Gamow's book had a drawing of two-dimensional people being amazed when a three-dimensional object passed through their world), I've always been a little troubled by the extrapolation of that example to our universe. The fact that we can describe what the intersection of 3-D and 4-D would look like, and use Gamow's example as an analogy, doesn't mean that 4-D in fact does exist.

[athon]

You might want to check out Prof. Dr. Lisa Randall's webpage (http://www.physics.harvard.edu/people/facpages/randall.html), she has written on this topic.

This is why I'm not a scientist; I opened her page and my first thought was not 'my, what interesting observations', or 'she has a good point', but rather 'ooh, she's cute'.

Hmm.

Athon

[wahrheit]

Indeed ... but it would not make their 2-D world of much use to the 3-D residents. The OP made reference to the Earth being populated in another dimension with aliens. This is the claim I find making little to no sense for reasons previously stated.

Sure. The idea that aliens/UFOs or whatever hangs around Earth in other dimensions is beyond wildest speculation.

Let's say there are those fantastic guys, living their life in 6 dimensions. My guess is, they couldn't care less about a dull 3D pixel in the universe like our planet Earth. The whole idea of such more-dimensional beings "hanging around" on Earth (i.e. a coordinate in the good old 3D space) and every now and then being a little careless and popping up in their UFOs visible to our photographic equipment, this whole idea is very, very much what you would expect from a 3-dimensional brain like ours. In other words, a typical, manmade fantasy.

This is why I'm not a scientist; I opened her page and my first thought was not 'my, what interesting observations', or 'she has a good point', but rather 'ooh, she's cute'.

Hmm.

Athon

Athon, I think you need a girlfriend, quick! ;)

[athon]

Sure. The idea that aliens/UFOs or whatever hangs around Earth in other dimensions is beyond wildest speculation.

Let's say there are those fantastic guys, living their life in 6 dimensions. My guess is, they couldn't care less about a dull 3D pixel in the universe like our planet Earth. The whole idea of such more-dimensional beings "hanging around" on Earth (i.e. a coordinate in the good old 3D space) and every now and then being a little careless and popping up in their UFOs visible to our photographic equipment, this whole idea is very, very much what you would expect from a 3-dimensional brain like ours. In other words, a typical, manmade fantasy.

My thought is 'how do you hide in the first place?'. I mean, if I'm 3D in a 2D world, even though not all of me can be seen, there are still two dimensions of me visible at all times. I can't just not be seen. Even if it's just a cross section with the 'depth' part simply not able to be seen, there will still always be something. So adding dimensions still doesn't help it. You can't exist only in higher dimensions.

Athon, I think you need a girlfriend, quick! ;)

Haha. Mate, this is how I get into trouble in the first place. I guess I shouldn't have emailed that physicist offering to show her my dimenions, huh.

Athon

[aggle-rithm]

Sagan once described a five-dimensional being moving through our four dimensions (three spacial and time) by explaining what a three dimensional being moving through two dimensions would be like; it would appear in two dimensional slices, like moving through a cat scan. The 'third' dimension of it would be impossible to see.

Likewise here, a fourth spacial dimension moving through our 3D world would appear in 3D with peculiar changes giving and idea of the 4th dimension as it 'passed through'. So, it is conceivable to have a 4D alien in our universe, I guess, but it wouldn't be invisible or anything. It would still look 3D to us.



I read a short story where a visitor from a higher dimension appeared in a lab. He appeared as blobs of flesh, hovering in mid-air, getting smaller and larger, breaking into smaller pieces then spontaneously flowing back together into a single large blob. It took them a while to figure out that this was a five-dimensional being moving through four-dimensional space-time.

[andyandy]

My thought is 'how do you hide in the first place?'. I mean, if I'm 3D in a 2D world, even though not all of me can be seen, there are still two dimensions of me visible at all times. I can't just not be seen. Even if it's just a cross section with the 'depth' part simply not able to be seen, there will still always be something. So adding dimensions still doesn't help it. You can't exist only in higher dimensions.



i don't think this is correct....the analogy often used is of a flat fish existing within a puddle of length and width, but with no depth sufficient for the fish to move up or down. Such a fish would live in a two dimensional world - able to swim left, right, forwards and backwards. Such a fish would not be able to comprehend a 3 dimensional space, or an object within it (say a bird), and if the bird were to tip its beak into the puddle, it would instead appear as if a 2D object....

nevertheless, the bird could exist flying around in 3D, and the fish in its 2D world need never know it was there.....

if you visualise a 2 dimensional plane, and then the extension of the plane axis from x,y to x,y,z , that extra dimension gives you plenty of space in which a 3D shape can exist without overlapping at all with the 2D plane.

[wahrheit]

My thought is 'how do you hide in the first place?'. I mean, if I'm 3D in a 2D world, even though not all of me can be seen, there are still two dimensions of me visible at all times. I can't just not be seen. Even if it's just a cross section with the 'depth' part simply not able to be seen, there will still always be something. So adding dimensions still doesn't help it. You can't exist only in higher dimensions.

Yes and no. In theory, those dimension might (or might not) work quite differently from what we know as going from 2D to 3D space. All of this is theory at the moment, of course. The idea is, if it works for those 2D flat guys, detecting us 3D folks someday, maybe some day we might explore, detect, find something which gives us a glimpse of one of those higher dimensions. (At least, that's how I understood it.)

Haha. Mate, this is how I get into trouble in the first place. I guess I shouldn't have emailed that physicist offering to show her my dimenions, huh.

Athon

What was her reply? "No thanks, Athon. Your pick up attempts are too flat for my taste."

[andyandy]

What was her reply? "No thanks, Athon. Your pick up attempts are too flat for my taste."

or that she was looking for someone with a little more depth :)

[Senex]

Okay, I have been wondering about this for quite some time and now I have to ask you all - are other dimensions really possible?

Everybody knows about at least one other dimension -- our alternative universe. Alternative Universe Minarvia sports a mustache and beard and is a hell and brimstone vicar. Surprisingly he is surrounded by everyone you know but with different personalities, foreign to the ones they have in our universe.

South Park did an excellent expose on this topic when Kyle and Stan tried to send their Cartman back to the Alternative Universe but were tricked by the more devious and faked-mustached and bearded Cartman of our own Universe.



Originally Posted by athon
Haha. Mate, this is how I get into trouble in the first place. I guess I shouldn't have emailed that physicist offering to show her my dimenions, huh

wahrheit
What was her reply? "No thanks, Athon. Your pick up attempts are too flat for my taste."

andyandy
or that she was looking for someone with a little more depth

Or whose universal dimension was still in the expanding phase of it's cycle?

[Professor Yaffle]

Reading this thread has just reminded me of a book I read as a young teenager and absolutely loved:

http://www.amazon.com/Boy-Who-Reversed-Himself/dp/0140389652

It similarly deals with the idea of extra dimensions and how beings moving in them would interact with our dimensions. I had completely forgotten about it until now.

[SGT]

There is nothing misterious in a multidimensional space. If you want to track an airplane with a radar, you must use a 6-dimensional space. Three coordinates of position and three of velocity.
If your target is very manoeuverable (a fighter, for instance) you might need to add three coordinates of acceleration and work in a 9 dimensional space.
about projections of a higher dimensinal space in a lower one, we see it at all instants. We perceive thimgs in the present. The past and the future are abstractions. So, we see all four dimensional objects in space-time as instant projections in the 3-dimensional space.

[Minarvia]

Thanks for all the great observations, folks. I'll have to check out the links provided.
From what some of you have said, it is clearer to me why Stanton Friedman discounts the "crypto-terrestrial" theory of aliens and UFOs when the Paracast hosts bring it up. I wondered why Friedman would be so boxed into his own theory; but if the likelihood is that if the hosts are bringing more woo into the discussion than Friedman is, I can see why he ignores that theory.
I also have wondered - even IF there are "crypto-terrestrials" sharing our world and even IF they are upset at the way we are treating this planet, would they even be much affected by what we do? If they reside in another dimension, how much of what we do would even have an effect on them?

[wahrheit]

I also have wondered - even IF there are "crypto-terrestrials" sharing our world and even IF they are upset at the way we are treating this planet, would they even be much affected by what we do? If they reside in another dimension, how much of what we do would even have an effect on them?

This again is a very human way of thinking. Do we treat our planet well? What about the environment? Oh my, all those nuclear weapons!

Also, don't forget that this is like asking "If there really was a fat guy in a read suit and with a white beard bringing presents to millions and millions in one night..., how does he fit through the tighter chimneys?"

Trying to answer your question, I'd go for a 'No'. If these guys reside in another dimension, they would not be affected by such profane things like a toxic waste dump, their life (rather, existence) would not be affected by the extinction of thousands of sea dwellers here on Earth.

And again, the thought that these higher dimension beings would be 'upset' because we are no good guys being nice to our planet is a purely human concept of thinking, in my opinion. Not much different from pondering whether there is a god nor not.

[Minarvia]

And again, the thought that these higher dimension beings would be 'upset' because we are no good guys being nice to our planet is a purely human concept of thinking, in my opinion. Not much different from pondering whether there is a god nor not.


I've thought that as well, in a sense. Jim Sparks, alledged abductee, spouts the same stuff. We are harming our world, we need to change, we need outside help to do it or bad things will happen, blah blah blah. It sounds a lot like religion, doesn't it?
I'm not saying we are perfect, but I do get tired of hearing about how good and lofty and perfect every other life form in the Universe must be compared to us. By that thinking, they must have all sprung into existence perfect and never had to struggle to adapt and survive. They are all good and true and we are the only horrible backwards creatures that exist. :rolleyes:

I do have my doubts that we would be able to harm this planet so much that "crypto-terrestrials" would be decimated by it. Anyway, even if that were the case, can't they be more proactive in stopping what would harm them? Per many UFO guests on "The Paracast", these creatures not only reside alongside us but in another dimension, they are also time jumpers. Time travel is nothing to them. :eye-poppi Well, I guess that is possible. But it just brings more questions to mind for me.

[T'ai Chi]

With the multiple universe hypothesis *anything* is possible.

[hopfen]

Can anyone explain what a two-dimensional world might be like? The concept has always furrowed my brow. I read Flatland many years ago, and I have no trouble understanding the standard explanations. However, when I try to visualize the two-dimensional world, there is always at least some thickness to it.

A 2-D world is really 3-D, of course, because the time dimension still applies. But movement would seem impossible.

Am I torturing myself needlessly, because this is only useful as an analogy, or am I missing something?

[wahrheit]

I've thought that as well, in a sense. Jim Sparks, alledged abductee, spouts the same stuff. We are harming our world, we need to change, we need outside help to do it or bad things will happen, blah blah blah. It sounds a lot like religion, doesn't it?

Sounds exactly like religion to me.


I'm not saying we are perfect, but I do get tired of hearing about how good and lofty and perfect every other life form in the Universe must be compared to us. By that thinking, they must have all sprung into existence perfect and never had to struggle to adapt and survive. They are all good and true and we are the only horrible backwards creatures that exist. :rolleyes:

We are horrible sometimes, no doubt. But most certainly not backwards. Of all known creatures on this planet, we are the most advanced ones.

I do have my doubts that we would be able to harm this planet so much that "crypto-terrestrials" would be decimated by it.

Have you seen the movie 'Mars Attacks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Attacks%21)!'?

When the Prez finally decides to push the red button and fire a nuclear weapon at the Martians, remember how they suck it up in a funny gadget and then the boss inhales the 'smoke'?

I guess that pretty much sums up what those higher dimension beings think about our 'power'. In other words, they'd laugh their butts off. (If those entities had a concept of humor like we do, and actually do have a butt, that is.) ;)

Anyway, even if that were the case, can't they be more proactive in stopping what would harm them?

Afraid to repeat myself, but this again is a purely human way of thinking. Caring for us because we are too stupid, stopping us from harming our planet etc.

Per many UFO guests on "The Paracast", these creatures not only reside alongside us but in another dimension, they are also time jumpers. Time travel is nothing to them. :eye-poppi Well, I guess that is possible. But it just brings more questions to mind for me.

Time travel, at least into the future, is in theory something we can seriously discuss*. There are models which allow for time travel. The other way, back in time, is even much more complicated. All this is of course theoretical physics (correct term?).

*Actually, if you fly from London to New York, you do time travel. It's only fractions of a seconds fraction, but it is real. I'd have to look some stuff up to give you the actual numbers (it's some nanoseconds, i.e. the billionth part of a second). This is normal physics (Einstein & Co.), no woo science.

[CLD]

Per many UFO guests on "The Paracast", these creatures not only reside alongside us but in another dimension, they are also time jumpers. Time travel is nothing to them. :eye-poppi Well, I guess that is possible. But it just brings more questions to mind for me.

Minarvia. You realize that the "Paracast" as well as all other paranormal talk shows that commence with spooky music and deep voiced announcers are entertainment and not a source for factual information. Their standards for evidence are extremely low. If someone says they visited the 9th dimension, that's good enough for them. :)

[Just thinking]

Sure. The idea that aliens/UFOs or whatever hangs around Earth in other dimensions is beyond wildest speculation.

Let's say there are those fantastic guys, living their life in 6 dimensions. My guess is, they couldn't care less about a dull 3D pixel in the universe like our planet Earth. The whole idea of such more-dimensional beings "hanging around" on Earth (i.e. a coordinate in the good old 3D space) and every now and then being a little careless and popping up in their UFOs visible to our photographic equipment, this whole idea is very, very much what you would expect from a 3-dimensional brain like ours. In other words, a typical, manmade fantasy.

No, I don't think it's a limit of our brains at play here. We cannot live in (or visit) a world that's truly 2 dimensional. Yes, we can pass through a mathematical 2 dimensional plane, and we can mathematically project slices of ourselves onto that plane as we pass through it -- but we would never be in it as the 2-D inhabitants would be. Therefore, I do not think for a moment that UFOs (or any other paranormal claim) can be a situation or event of some higher dimensional penetration onto our universe for similar reasons.

[athon]

i don't think this is correct....the analogy often used is of a flat fish existing within a puddle of length and width, but with no depth sufficient for the fish to move up or down. Such a fish would live in a two dimensional world - able to swim left, right, forwards and backwards. Such a fish would not be able to comprehend a 3 dimensional space, or an object within it (say a bird), and if the bird were to tip its beak into the puddle, it would instead appear as if a 2D object....

nevertheless, the bird could exist flying around in 3D, and the fish in its 2D world need never know it was there.....

if you visualise a 2 dimensional plane, and then the extension of the plane axis from x,y to x,y,z , that extra dimension gives you plenty of space in which a 3D shape can exist without overlapping at all with the 2D plane.

You know, I was thinking about this when I went to bed last night and came to this same conclusion. I was going to argue against my own post when I came on today, but you beat me to it.

Thanks andy.

What was her reply? "No thanks, Athon. Your pick up attempts are too flat for my taste."

:D

Athon

[athon]

With the multiple universe hypothesis *anything* is possible.

Indeed, but this doesn't mean *anything* is probable.

Athon

[Minarvia]

Minarvia. You realize that the "Paracast" as well as all other paranormal talk shows that commence with spooky music and deep voiced announcers are entertainment and not a source for factual information. Their standards for evidence are extremely low. If someone says they visited the 9th dimension, that's good enough for them. :)

Well, no, I guess I didn't! I took them at their word to begin with because they always talk about how skeptical they are and how they ask the "tough" and "hard-hitting" questions that other shows don't.
I'm seriously beginning to question those statements, tho! :o

[solas]

Can anyone explain what a two-dimensional world might be like? The concept has always furrowed my brow. I read Flatland many years ago, and I have no trouble understanding the standard explanations. However, when I try to visualize the two-dimensional world, there is always at least some thickness to it.

A 2-D world is really 3-D, of course, because the time dimension still applies. But movement would seem impossible.

Am I torturing myself needlessly, because this is only useful as an analogy, or am I missing something?

does it help if you think of 2d as an animation?
Alternately here's a link (http://www.tenthdimension.com/flash2.php) to an animated imagining of the tenth dimension :)

[Just thinking]

does it help if you think of 2d as an animation?
Alternately here's a link (http://www.tenthdimension.com/flash2.php) to an animated imagining of the tenth dimension :)

Nice animation -- although I believe a 2D being can have a digestive tract; his waste simply goes back out the way the food came in. Or, the way in can seal up as the way out opens.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Carl Sagan on understanding dimensions.

VareiRkDBLM

[athon]

does it help if you think of 2d as an animation?
Alternately here's a link (http://www.tenthdimension.com/flash2.php) to an animated imagining of the tenth dimension :)

Pity it goes a little woo. The links down the bottom should have been an indicator of that, I guess. When the narrator made the classic 'when we observe' statement for quantum physics (as if it has to do with our actually consciously observing, and not it being about quanta interacting) I figured it was a shame it had to start going silly. Shame; it had potential.

Athon

[Cuddles]

There is nothing misterious in a multidimensional space. If you want to track an airplane with a radar, you must use a 6-dimensional space. Three coordinates of position and three of velocity.
If your target is very manoeuverable (a fighter, for instance) you might need to add three coordinates of acceleration and work in a 9 dimensional space.

Phase space is not real space. Yes, we can mathematically describe multiple dimensions, and in many problems it useful to use variables as dimensions, but that says absolutely nothing about the actual existence of spatial dimensions.

[Macoy]

sorta relevant:

http://www.physorg.com/news98468776.html