Carjacker Severely beats 91 year old veteran

[Mephisto]

What is it about veterans being beaten this week? Fortunately this a-hole was caught and stands to serve a long time in prison. In spite of the fact that he caught on security video he still claims he's not guilty. The video is difficult to watch.

Police: He Beat, Carjacked 91-Year-Old Vet

Wayne County Prosecutor Kym L. Worthy charged Deonte Edward Bradley, 22 of Detroit in connection with the violent assault and carjacking of 91 year old Detroit resident Leonard Sims that occurred at 8:35 p.m. on May 4, 2007 in the parking lot of the Stop and Go Liquor Store located at 3206 W. McNichols.

Mr. Sims parked his 2005 Chevy Malibu in the parking lot of the store. Mr. Bradley asked Mr. Sims for a light for his cigarette and allegedly punched Mr. Sims multiple times in the face and neck. Mr. Bradley forced the keys from Mr. Sims hand and then hit Mr. Sims in the face and used the car door to knock Mr. Sims down on the ground. Mr. Bradley drove away in the vehicle. Mr. Sims was assisted by citizens at the scene who called police.

After an investigation by Detroit Police Department and the Violent Crimes Task Force Mr. Bradley was arrested on May 10, 2007.

He has been charged with Carjacking, which carries a penalty of up to life in prison; and, Assault With Intent to do Great Bodily Harm, which carries a maximum penalty of ten years in prison.

http://www.wxyz.com/news/story.aspx?content_id=d3a4e114-bc60-4452-aa01-dde4cdc2be18



In the video there were several people standing by watching the beating. Psychologists attributed their apparent apathy to something called the "Genovese Effect," named after Kitty Genovese who was stabbed to death outside her apartment building as neighbors watched and ignored her calls for help.

A psychologist on Anderson Cooper stated that all it takes is for one person to step up to defend a helpless victim to spur others into action. They also showed the footage of the off-duty Detroit cop beating the female bartender half his size.

I may be thrown into jail for what I would do if I saw someone beating a helpless old man, or a woman the way these neanderthals were beating their victims, but it's definitely a chance I'd be willing to take!

[Magyar]

I wonder why the people watching can't aren't charged with a crime?
There are people are in jail for aiding and abetting after the fact, what is the difference? Fine, you don't want to get physical - but they all have cell phones.
They could have pulled their car in the way and then run away and run into the store to call the police. No they all just stood and watched.

No surprise I guess, apparently we have an name for this. All I know is that I am/would be more shocked if/when people do step in. My assumption is that this behavior is the norm, which is why I mostly don't like people.

[fuelair]

What is it about veterans being beaten this week? Fortunately this a-hole was caught and stands to serve a long time in prison. In spite of the fact that he caught on security video he still claims he's not guilty. The video is difficult to watch.





In the video there were several people standing by watching the beating. Psychologists attributed their apparent apathy to something called the "Genovese Effect," named after Kitty Genovese who was stabbed to death outside her apartment building as neighbors watched and ignored her calls for help.

A psychologist on Anderson Cooper stated that all it takes is for one person to step up to defend a helpless victim to spur others into action. They also showed the footage of the off-duty Detroit cop beating the female bartender half his size.

I may be thrown into jail for what I would do if I saw someone beating a helpless old man, or a woman the way these neanderthals were beating their victims, but it's definitely a chance I'd be willing to take!Most people are unsure about legalities (stories of people being arrested for self defense don't help), most people have no functional training in fighting, there is a large subculture (actually multiple sub-cultures) that view assisting police by reporting such attacks is bad - or dangerous to their health). By the same token, I'm with you on that - Anderson Cooper or not!! By the by, most useful joint destruction takes 20 pounds or less of torque force.

[Mephisto]

I wonder why the people watching can't aren't charged with a crime?
There are people are in jail for aiding and abetting after the fact, what is the difference? Fine, you don't want to get physical - but they all have cell phones.
They could have pulled their car in the way and then run away and run into the store to call the police. No they all just stood and watched.

No surprise I guess, apparently we have an name for this. All I know is that I am/would be more shocked if/when people do step in. My assumption is that this behavior is the norm, which is why I mostly don't like people.

I would like to see people who watch an assault without helping charged with a crime as well - especially if they are caught on video during the assault.

You're right that there are any number of things they could have done to prevent this heartless beating, the least of which would have been to park their vehicle behind the old man's and leave it locked to run into the store.

From one misanthrope to another; this is why I trust animals far more than people.

[Mephisto]

Most people are unsure about legalities (stories of people being arrested for self defense don't help), most people have no functional training in fighting, there is a large subculture (actually multiple sub-cultures) that view assisting police by reporting such attacks is bad - or dangerous to their health). By the same token, I'm with you on that - Anderson Cooper or not!! By the by, most useful joint destruction takes 20 pounds or less of torque force.

I'm aware of the recent urban Rapper-induced trend against "snitching," but anarchy isn't quite as glamorous if you can picture your mother, or grandfather as the one being beaten. All it takes is a smidgen of empathy.

I can even understand not wanting to physically engage the attacker, but simply calling the police with a cell phone might have cut short the attack.

Even physically confronting this cretin wouldn't have taken more than a stomp to the back of the knee and a good tug on his collar. You're right about the "useful joint destruction," and I'm afraid that's where I would have crossed the law. I wouldn't have stopped at only one joint and whether he deserved it or not (in the eyes of the law), I would have made certain he couldn't walk AND would have had to ask his cellmates to wipe his ass.

[fuelair]

I'm aware of the recent urban Rapper-induced trend against "snitching," but anarchy isn't quite as glamorous if you can picture your mother, or grandfather as the one being beaten. All it takes is a smidgen of empathy.

I can even understand not wanting to physically engage the attacker, but simply calling the police with a cell phone might have cut short the attack.

Even physically confronting this cretin wouldn't have taken more than a stomp to the back of the knee and a good tug on his collar. You're right about the "useful joint destruction," and I'm afraid that's where I would have crossed the law. I wouldn't have stopped at only one joint and whether he deserved it or not (in the eyes of the law), I would have made certain he couldn't walk AND would have had to ask his cellmates to wipe his ass.After they used it for another purpose.

[WildCat]

They also showed the footage of the off-duty Detroit cop beating the female bartender half his size.
I wish that was a Detroit cop, but it was actually a Chicago cop. :mad:

[Beerina]

I may be thrown into jail for what I would do if I saw someone beating a helpless old man, or a woman the way these neanderthals were beating their victims, but it's definitely a chance I'd be willing to take!

I think they may be more scared the guy will pull a knife or a gun if you get involved. Also, you don't know how many accomplices may be around but just not in sight. Or in sight but not looking like accomplices, yet.

[Mephisto]

After they used it for another purpose.

:)

Hopefully, he'll get his chance to know what it feels like having several people watch while someone bangs away on him. ;)

[Mephisto]

I wish that was a Detroit cop, but it was actually a Chicago cop. :mad:

Oops, you're right WildCat. Sorry to any Detroit cops here. :)

Thanks for catching that - not that I plan on going to Detroit anytime soon.

[Mephisto]

I think they may be more scared the guy will pull a knife or a gun if you get involved. Also, you don't know how many accomplices may be around but just not in sight. Or in sight but not looking like accomplices, yet.

You may be right, but there were a good five or six people standing around, and if they were really too scared to intervene, they could at least have called the police from inside the store.

I also believe that if this jerk had a weapon with him, he would have presented it during the assault on the old man. He was clearly a coward for choosing such a feeble target and I'm sure if he'd possessed a weapon during that assault, he would have used it.

Having an accomplice nearby would have been another problem for me - it takes a little longer to break four legs and four wrists. ;)

(edited to add) . . . plus, against two attackers, I would have felt justified in using the small, but very sharp, pocketknife I carry.

[neon]

The victim was 91? Oooh, why, I oughta... :mad:

Please put the attacker somewhere very bad, for a very long time.

[fuelair]

You may be right, but there were a good five or six people standing around, and if they were really too scared to intervene, they could at least have called the police from inside the store.

I also believe that if this jerk had a weapon with him, he would have presented it during the assault on the old man. He was clearly a coward for choosing such a feeble target and I'm sure if he'd possessed a weapon during that assault, he would have used it.

Having an accomplice nearby would have been another problem for me - it takes a little longer to break four legs and four wrists. ;)

(edited to add) . . . plus, against two attackers, I would have felt justified in using the small, but very sharp, pocketknife I carry.
I prefer the small, but nicely jagged once they enter, .357 Black Talons in my Taurus - though I have nothing against blades as well. Weaponless is safe legally - and with an audience it is really better stopping at the first joiont the bad guy stops at (though it is satisfying if they are stupid enough to continue - allowing you to continue "protecting" yourself[ I prefer "backing myself into a corner for that]).

[Mephisto]

I prefer the small, but nicely jagged once they enter, .357 Black Talons in my Taurus - though I have nothing against blades as well. Weaponless is safe legally - and with an audience it is really better stopping at the first joiont the bad guy stops at (though it is satisfying if they are stupid enough to continue - allowing you to continue "protecting" yourself[ I prefer "backing myself into a corner for that]).

The husband of my martial arts teacher was a cop and we were always taught to direct the crowd's attention to "how dangerous" the attacker was and "to warn everyone to stay back (after you'd subdued him)," and thus solidify the notion in the crowd's mind that the criminal was indeed dangerous and that we were the rescuing party. Also, if we had to use a weapon (a stick or knife, but it goes well with a firearm), drop it the minute the police arrived to take charge of the situation as they will naturally become defensive against anyone with a weapon.

I'm sure backing yourself into a corner would also "stick" in the minds of witnesses, "He didn't have a choice, officer! He was being attacked from two sides and he was cornered." ;)

[Temporal Renegade]

The b*****d was hitting the man over & over again because he wasn't falling down. Of course, he couldn't fall, because he was pinned between his own car door and a vehicle parked next to his.

The good news? Despite some wicked bruises, at least his jaw wasn't broken. Plus, Kym Worthy's a bit of a hardass, so this clown's in for some serious time
(hopefully!!)

[Vorticity]

From the article quoted in the opening post:

He has been charged with Carjacking, which carries a penalty of up to life in prison; and, Assault With Intent to do Great Bodily Harm, which carries a maximum penalty of ten years in prison.

Am I the only one who finds this ass-backwards?

[Temporal Renegade]

From the article quoted in the opening post:



Am I the only one who finds this ass-backwards?

Not in the least, I'm sorry to say.

[Mephisto]

From the article quoted in the opening post:



Am I the only one who finds this ass-backwards?

Well, we ARE a car culture here in the states. :)

[Tony]

People like that are a waste of space. He deserves life in prison.

[geni]

The standing around probably has less to do with fear and more to do with the expectation that someone else will act or at least take a lead.

One suggested way around this is that if you do need help focus your cries on an individual within a group rather than the group as a whole.

[gypsey]

Mephisto
I may be thrown into jail for what I would do if I saw someone beating a helpless old man, or a woman the way these neanderthals were beating their victims, but it's definitely a chance I'd be willing to take!

years ago when I was young and dumb I was at the river walk in jax fl sitting on a bench just relaxing when a stupid punk grabbed an elderly lady around the neck and tryed to grab her purse,
I didn't even think about it, I jumped in and he ended up with a broken nose and a broken collar bone, his shoulder was also dislocated, of all the people around no one else even moved to help and by the time cops got there most had hurried away so they wouldn't have to be witness's,
the lady was ok if a little shaken up and the guy was arrested for assault and several other charges,
even as old as I am now I guess I am still dumb cause I would do again in a heartbeat:p
gypsey

[Tmy]

Why should he get so much time. An assault is an assault. The age of the victim shouldnt matter.


Ok I dont believe that. But then agian, Im all for hate crime legisitlation. I think victim/motives can aggrivate the crime.

Im sure this guy will get whats coming to him.

[Tmy]

I think they may be more scared the guy will pull a knife or a gun if you get involved. Also, you don't know how many accomplices may be around but just not in sight. Or in sight but not looking like accomplices, yet.

Hey. Maybe the guy getting beat up has it coming! You dont know the back story most of the time.

Imagine this carjacker getting beat up by some passerbye. Wouldnt you feel silly if you jumped in and saved him.

[Mephisto]

years ago when I was young and dumb I was at the river walk in jax fl sitting on a bench just relaxing when a stupid punk grabbed an elderly lady around the neck and tryed to grab her purse,
I didn't even think about it, I jumped in and he ended up with a broken nose and a broken collar bone, his shoulder was also dislocated, of all the people around no one else even moved to help and by the time cops got there most had hurried away so they wouldn't have to be witness's,
the lady was ok if a little shaken up and the guy was arrested for assault and several other charges,
even as old as I am now I guess I am still dumb cause I would do again in a heartbeat:p
gypsey

My hat is off to you, sir. That lady could have been killed (grabbing her around the throat was a good sign of that possibility) if you hadn't intervened. I would have done the same thing.

Welcome to the forums btw. :)

[fuelair]

years ago when I was young and dumb I was at the river walk in jax fl sitting on a bench just relaxing when a stupid punk grabbed an elderly lady around the neck and tryed to grab her purse,
I didn't even think about it, I jumped in and he ended up with a broken nose and a broken collar bone, his shoulder was also dislocated, of all the people around no one else even moved to help and by the time cops got there most had hurried away so they wouldn't have to be witness's,
the lady was ok if a little shaken up and the guy was arrested for assault and several other charges,
even as old as I am now I guess I am still dumb cause I would do again in a heartbeat:p
gypsey
re: dislocation and breaks, was that one, two or three actions? Enquiring minds like to know technique!:)

[gypsey]

Mephisto
My hat is off to you, sir. That lady could have been killed (grabbing her around the throat was a good sign of that possibility) if you hadn't intervened. I would have done the same thing.

Welcome to the forums btw.


I think that at the time I believed the same thing and she was so scared I don't think I could have stood myself if I hadn't done something, my husband says I am too violent, that I should have tried talking to the guy but he wasn't there so I just smile and let him think what he wants,
thanks for the welcome:D

fuelair

re: dislocation and breaks, was that one, two or three actions? Enquiring minds like to know technique!

well the nose was one, I hit him there first to break his hold on her, his shoulder happened when he grabbed me and I was getting him to turn me loose;)
the collar bone was a little excessive I admit but I was a little mad and when I put him on the ground to hold for the police I was kinda rough :blush: but I don't remember specifically trying to break anything else it just kinda happened so I guess that would be 3:D

gypsey

[Kerberos]

Why should he get so much time. An assault is an assault. The age of the victim shouldnt matter.


Ok I dont believe that. But then agian, Im all for hate crime legisitlation. I think victim/motives can aggrivate the crime.

Im sure this guy will get whats coming to him.
Also an old person could be far more likely to die from a beating than a young man. People that age can die from a simple fall. Young people almost never do.

[Kerberos]

You may be right, but there were a good five or six people standing around, and if they were really too scared to intervene, they could at least have called the police from inside the store.


I think people might be scared and confused, and thus not act rationally. That being said you can be charged in Denmark for not giving aid to people in need. You're not obligated to intervene in a fight, and I don't think you could be charged because you didn't immediately call the police, but just walking away afterwards without calling a police officer or an ambulance would likely be illegal. At least if you had reason to believe the victim was seriously injured. I don't think you have laws like that in the US though.

[fuelair]

I think that at the time I believed the same thing and she was so scared I don't think I could have stood myself if I hadn't done something, my husband says I am too violent, that I should have tried talking to the guy but he wasn't there so I just smile and let him think what he wants,
thanks for the welcome:D



well the nose was one, I hit him there first to break his hold on her, his shoulder happened when he grabbed me and I was getting him to turn me loose;)
the collar bone was a little excessive I admit but I was a little mad and when I put him on the ground to hold for the police I was kinda rough :blush: but I don't remember specifically trying to break anything else it just kinda happened so I guess that would be 3:D

gypsey
Well done, indeed! I was specifically interested because there is a neat procedure that viciously done could result in those three and a potential broken kneecap in one. And it was not at all excessive - he was still alive (not that I would call excessive if he had not been) - and the neatest thing is when he went to jail it's very likely everybody jeered:"You got beat up by a girl!!?????!!!!" and made him their group girlfriend.

[Mephisto]

. . . I don't think I could have stood myself if I hadn't done something, my husband says I am too violent, . . .

I stand gracefully corrected, my hat is off to you madam. :)

It's a pleasure to run into a lady who stands up for herself and someone else. Your husband thinks you're too violent, huh? That reminds me of an episode I saw of "Lucky Louie," an HBO production. His wife (the absolutely BEAUTIFUL Pamela Adlon) was mugged and she fought her attacker, who unfortunately made away with which unfortunately had her house keys and driver's license in it. It was pretty hilarious, but Louie's wife was more willing to fight than he was. He thought she was too violent too. :)

Glad to have such a spunky lady on the forum. :)

[Lonewulf]

Spunky ladies are great.

But seriously, up to life in prison for car theft? Huh? That part confuzzled me.

Either way, how the hell do you beat a 91 year old man? Seriously? Just... what part of your brain tells you to do that?

Ugh. I'm disgusted.

[PrincessIneffabelle]

If I saw someone getting beat up or robbed, I would not physically intervene (I am a physically limited female woman of the lady sex). I would, however, call 911 immediately and give a description of the attacker and whatever vehicles were involved.


This reminds me of the time I was at the food court in the mall. A little girl of about 4 was stumbling around, crying loudly (copious tears and snot) for her mommy. I could tell she had been crying for more than a few minutes. Everyone just looked at her for a minute or two and went back to eating and talking. I got up, popped my 2-year-old into his stroller, left my food and went over to her and started trying to calm her down. I then caught the eye of a nearby mom and asked her to go find a security officer while I stayed with the child. Security showed up and took over. About 15 minutes later, the mom was located in a different part of the mall. She acted more inconvenienced than anything else.

I understand that people are worried about approaching little kids, but there is a time a place that it is the right thing to do. I didn't touch the child or try to lead her away, and I very well may have saved her from being snatched. Who knows how long that little girl would've wandered around? Her mom should have been charged with something, if you ask me.

[Kerberos]

Spunky ladies are great.

But seriously, up to life in prison for car theft? Huh? That part confuzzled me.

I'm not sure if you just picked the wrong word, but it's carjacking, not car theft. Carjacking is done when the car is occupied and frequently at gun point, so it's significantly more serious than mere theft. Even so I agree that life in prison seems very hash.

[Lonewulf]

I'm not sure if you just picked the wrong word, but it's carjacking, not car theft. Carjacking is done when the car is occupied and frequently at gun point, so it's significantly more serious than mere theft. Even so I agree that life in prison seems very hash.

Okay, yeah, you're right, there's a difference. You're also right in that it's very harsh.

Gunpoint should move the sentencing up a bit more, but it's still theft in the end; unless someone is shot or assaulted, you can't really make a case for harm, and if they are shot or assaulted, you charge them with that crime as well.

[Kerberos]

Okay, yeah, you're right, there's a difference. You're also right in that it's very harsh.

Gunpoint should move the sentencing up a bit more, but it's still theft in the end; unless someone is shot or assaulted, you can't really make a case for harm, and if they are shot or assaulted, you charge them with that crime as well.

Well robberry, and it's probably quite traumatizing to be robbed at gun point so I'd argue that there is emmotional harm, but nonetheless I suspect we still agree on the main. Incidentially I looked up robberry on Wikipedia and it says that the maximum sentence for robery in general is life in prison so they're consistent at least. Could any of our resident lawyers comment on whether robery/carjacking does in fact result in a life sentence barring (attempted) murder or something?

[Lonewulf]

Well robberry, and it's probably quite traumatizing to be robbed at gun point so I'd argue that there is emmotional harm, but nonetheless I suspect we still agree on the main. Incidentially I looked up robberry on Wikipedia and it says that the maximum sentence for robery in general is life in prison so they're consistent at least. Could any of our resident lawyers comment on whether robery/carjacking does in fact result in a life sentence barring (attempted) murder or something?

Emotional harm and being "traumatized" can only be taken so far.

[Kerberos]

Emotional harm and being "traumatized" can only be taken so far.

I disagree strongly with that. Emotional harm can potentially be fully as serious as physical harm. Not counting death. Would you also feel that rape shouldn't be regarded as particuarly serious as long as little to no physical harm was caused? As I said life seems over the top to me, but robberry is not equivelant to theft.

[Lonewulf]

I disagree strongly with that. Emotional harm can potentially be fully as serious as physical harm. Not counting death. Would you also feel that rape shouldn't be regarded as particuarly serious as long as little to no physical harm was caused? As I said life seems over the top to me, but robberry is not equivelant to theft.

This post traumatized me.

Expect to hear from my lawyer.

[Kerberos]

This post traumatized me.

Expect to hear from my lawyer.

So you have no arguments then? Colour me unsuprised.

[Lonewulf]

So you have no arguments then? Colour me unsuprised.

1) That was uncalled for. There was no need to be rude.

2) Rape isn't the same thing as being threatened at gunpoint. But go ahead and prove me wrong if you want. If you have evidence, please provide.

[Mephisto]

Emotional harm and being "traumatized" can only be taken so far.

I think it's safe to say that the 91 year old victim will be traumatized for the rest of his life. If you watched the video, I would think you'd agree.

[gypsey]

fuelair
Well done, indeed! I was specifically interested because there is a neat procedure that viciously done could result in those three and a potential broken kneecap in one. And it was not at all excessive - he was still alive (not that I would call excessive if he had not been) - and the neatest thing is when he went to jail it's very likely everybody jeered:"You got beat up by a girl!!?????!!!!" and made him their group girlfriend.

thank you for the well done and thats a procedure I would love to learn :cool: I learned quite a bit from working for the Pinkerton's handling prisoners for the sheriffs dept at the local hospital, they also had us take a short course in hand to hand and self defense but I never followed up on those
the cops who showed up thought it was pretty funny :D

Mephisto
It's a pleasure to run into a lady who stands up for herself and someone else. Your husband thinks you're too violent, huh? That reminds me of an episode I saw of "Lucky Louie," an HBO production. His wife (the absolutely BEAUTIFUL Pamela Adlon) was mugged and she fought her attacker, who unfortunately made away with which unfortunately had her house keys and driver's license in it. It was pretty hilarious, but Louie's wife was more willing to fight than he was. He thought she was too violent too.

Glad to have such a spunky lady on the forum.

you are so sweet thank you :blush: and thanks for the welcome too :D
I learned early that I had to defend myself because no one else was gonna do it so I learned to fight back and all the dirty tricks I could find to help me do that ,
I hate a bully and to me a bully is anyone who hurts or takes advantage of some one smaller or helpless to fight back, something about old people and children just does something to my heart and I can't just sit and watch them be hurt,
the husband thinks I should just calm down and let someone else handle things because "ladies don't act that way" but then neither does he!! love him dearly but the term milque toast comes to mind:p


Lonewulf
Spunky ladies are great.

But seriously, up to life in prison for car theft? Huh? That part confuzzled me.

Either way, how the hell do you beat a 91 year old man? Seriously? Just... what part of your brain tells you to do that?

Ugh. I'm disgusted.

I do think life in prison is a bit much, maybe just a month of beatings like he gave to the poor old guy?
I have always wondered what could be an excuse for things like this, what goes on in a persons head to make them want to hurt another for a car (or any material thing)they can't keep long anyway, it's so stupid

gypsey

[Kerberos]

1) That was uncalled for. There was no need to be rude.
How was it uncalled for? If you made an argument I missed it.

2) Rape isn't the same thing as being threatened at gunpoint. But go ahead and prove me wrong if you want. If you have evidence, please provide.
I never said it was the same, I simply pointed out that rape does not necessarily entail significant physical harm. So I asked you a very simple question. Since you do not think that emotional harm should count for much don't you agree that a rape at gunpoint is not that bad?

I mean there would be little physical damage. Let's assume for the sake of the argument that the rapist is sterile and has no STD. Sure the woman might be scared for life, but she wasn't physically hurt. Disregarding emotional harm logically entails that you should consider this a rather trivial offence. Of cause you're free to change you mind.

Granted it is probably more traumatizing to be raped at gun point than to be robed at gunpoint, but is still "just" emotional harm.

[Lonewulf]

I think it's safe to say that the 91 year old victim will be traumatized for the rest of his life. If you watched the video, I would think you'd agree.

You missed what we were talking about.

The 91 year old victim was also struck in the face repeatedly.

I was talking about a robbery where there was not physical injury.

Assaulting an old man apparently has a maximum sentence of 10 years. Robbing him, without striking him, has a maximum sentence of life. You think that's logical, fine. Go ahead and think so. I'll just sit here and disagree, m'kay?

How was it uncalled for? If you made an argument I missed it.

Yes, you did. It went way over your head.

I never said it was the same, I simply pointed out that rape does not necessarily entail significant physical harm. So I asked you a very simple question. Since you do not think that emotional harm should count for much don't you agree that a rape at gunpoint is not that bad?

My point, genius, was that mental harm could only be taken so far. Anyone can claim "mental harm", I'd need to see evidence that robbery at gunpoint, instead of simple robbery while you're away, necessitates extreme mental harm. If you have the evidence, provide it. Rape is an extreme form of mental harm, but even that can only be taken so far. There's a limit. If you think that it's unlimited harm, that it can be so extreme that it causes people to explode, then fine; prove THAT too. Combustion from traumatization or some crap like that.

Rape isn't robbery. So I ignored the rest of your post. It's a fallacious comparison, and I have no reason to take it seriously.

I do think life in prison is a bit much, maybe just a month of beatings like he gave to the poor old guy?

I never said that life in prison was too much, I said that life in prison for robbery alone is too much. The maximum sentence for robbery is life, the maximum sentence for assault and battery seems to be 10 years (from what I heard quoted, I may be wrong, but it ain't life).

A month of beatings like he gave to the old man? Eh, I dunno. That reeks of sinking to his level. Though at an emotional level, I would agree with that.

I have always wondered what could be an excuse for things like this, what goes on in a persons head to make them want to hurt another for a car (or any material thing)they can't keep long anyway, it's so stupid

I don't know. I'm not a psychologist. I will say that I don't think he was thinking logically about his situation, though.

[Kerberos]

You missed what we were talking about.

The 91 year old victim was also struck in the face repeatedly.

I was talking about a robbery where there was not physical injury.

Assaulting an old man apparently has a maximum sentence of 10 years. Robbing him, without striking him, has a maximum sentence of life. You think that's logical, fine. Go ahead and think so. I'll just sit here and disagree, m'kay?
Do you have some sort of problems with long term memory or do you just enjoy setting up blatant straw men?

My point, genius, was that mental harm could only be taken so far. Anyone can claim "mental harm", I'd need to see evidence that robbery at gunpoint, instead of simple robbery while you're away, necessitates extreme mental harm. If you have the evidence, provide it. Rape is an extreme form of mental harm, but even that can only be taken so far. There's a limit. If you think that it's unlimited harm, that it can be so extreme that it causes people to explode, then fine; prove THAT too. Combustion from traumatization or some crap like that.

Rape isn't robbery. So I ignored the rest of your post. It's a fallacious comparison, and I have no reason to take it seriously.
Straw man and rampant hypocracy, all in one. GG.

[knot]

In a parking lot, two guys were beating the hell out of some guy. I decided to try to help. I ended up punching one guy in the face then got stabbed in the abdomen with a screwdriver or icepick by the other guy. At this point they ran away. A large blood vessel was severed and I have to be taken to the hospital. The troublemakers got away. Pepper spray would have been ideal.

[gypsey]

Lonewulf
I never said that life in prison was too much, I said that life in prison for robbery alone is too much. The maximum sentence for robbery is life, the maximum sentence for assault and battery seems to be 10 years (from what I heard quoted, I may be wrong, but it ain't life).

A month of beatings like he gave to the old man? Eh, I dunno. That reeks of sinking to his level. Though at an emotional level, I would agree with that.

I'm sorry Lonewolf, I was so not clear that I am embarrassed :o , I was agreeing with you that life for robbery alone was too much and that maybe in it's place they could give him the month of beatings, I'm sure they could find another inmate who wouldn't mind getting to that level and then he would have his ten years to heal :cool:

gypsey

[Mephisto]

In a parking lot, two guys were beating the hell out of some guy. I decided to try to help. I ended up punching one guy in the face then got stabbed in the abdomen with a screwdriver or icepick by the other guy. At this point they ran away. A large blood vessel was severed and I have to be taken to the hospital. The troublemakers got away. Pepper spray would have been ideal.

There is always the danger that the two fighting it out know each other and will turn on the rescuer. They could be family members or just old (and likely drunk) friends - In the situation you encountered, I would immediately mistrust both.

However, in the case where one of the two was clearly the weaker, and likely the victim - such as the woman gypsy helped or the 91 year old man in the OP - I would concentrate on the younger aggressor.

[Lonewulf]

Do you have some sort of problems with long term memory or do you just enjoy setting up blatant straw men?

Straw man and rampant hypocracy, all in one. GG.

Okay, so you agree that mental harm from a robbery is not as severe as rape.

Like I said, mental harm can only go so far. For rape, it goes farther. For armed robbery without assault, it doesn't go very far. Quid pro quo.

Unless you have evidence to the contrary? If you do not, then there is no reason to argue then, is there?

[Mephisto]

Okay, so you agree that mental harm from a robbery is not as severe as rape.

Like I said, mental harm can only go so far. For rape, it goes farther. For armed robbery without assault, it doesn't go very far. Quid pro quo.

Unless you have evidence to the contrary? If you do not, then there is no reason to argue then, is there?

For the record, my assertion that the 91 year old veteran would be traumatized for the rest of his life was more about his age than the particular type of assault he suffered.

[knot]

There is always the danger that the two fighting it out know each other and will turn on the rescuer. They could be family members or just old (and likely drunk) friends - In the situation you encountered, I would immediately mistrust both.


You misread my post. I said it was two against one. To be specific, it was two Asians against a white guy with an Asian girlfriend.

[Temporal Renegade]

The lawyer for the (rule 8) clown who committed the assault has asked the judge to isolate his client, as "He's being threatened in jail" by some of the other inmates. Poor baby.

Here's a link to the article:
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007705240357

[Kerberos]

Okay, so you agree that mental harm from a robbery is not as severe as rape.

Gee what gave it away? was it the fact that I siad so before you even constructed the straw man perhaps?

Like I said, mental harm can only go so far. For rape, it goes farther. For armed robbery without assault, it doesn't go very far. Quid pro quo.

Unless you have evidence to the contrary? If you do not, then there is no reason to argue then, is there?
No, I don't have a peer reviewed study of how people react to having a gun showed in their face. I don't have such a study on the impact of rape either for what it's worth. You seem to think it's a walk in the park. FOr some strange reason I don't accept that that is the default position. If you think so, suit youself.

[strathmeyer]

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007705240357

Commenting on the threats against Bradley, Sims said, "He'll have to take whatever comes his way."

Life's a bitch!

[Temporal Renegade]

Life's a bitch!

Yeah, my heart goes out to him.

Couldn't the Sims find it in their hearts to extend a little Christian charity, like others always seem to do?

[Lonewulf]

No, I don't have a peer reviewed study of how people react to having a gun showed in their face. I don't have such a study on the impact of rape either for what it's worth. You seem to think it's a walk in the park. FOr some strange reason I don't accept that that is the default position. If you think so, suit youself.

Those who cry "straw man!" shouldn't resort to straw men themselves. It makes you look foolish.

[Kerberos]

Those who cry "straw man!" shouldn't resort to straw men themselves. It makes you look foolish.

And your inability to tell the difference between an obvious sarcastic exaggeration and a straw man makes you look foolish. You have however repeatedly compared robbery at gunpoint to simple theft and said that the mental harm from armed robbery "doesn't go very far" - so my exageration while obvious, was not large. Of cause the victim of an armed robbery probably won't be severely traumatized 1, 2 or 10 years later in most cases, but most victims of physical assault don't get permanently crippled either.

[Lonewulf]

And your inability to tell the difference between an obvious sarcastic exaggeration and a straw man makes you look foolish.

Uh huh.

You have however repeatedly compared robbery at gunpoint to simple theft and said that the mental harm from armed robbery "doesn't go very far" - so my exageration while obvious, was not large.

And to you, rape is comparable to armed robbery, which you compared in the last post. Gotcha.

Of cause the victim of an armed robbery probably won't be severely traumatized 1, 2 or 10 years later in most cases, but most victims of physical assault don't get permanently crippled either.

So in the majority of armed robbery cases, mental harm is not severely crippling, right?

...And? Do you have a point, or do you just want to compare dick sizes?

[Ian Osborne]

He ought to be segregated until he's convicted. Although guilt and circumstances aren't in doubt in this case, to throw a remand prisoner to the wolves before he's had his day in court would create a very dangerous precedent.

[Lonewulf]

For the record, my assertion that the 91 year old veteran would be traumatized for the rest of his life was more about his age than the particular type of assault he suffered.

Oh, I see what you did there! :)

My apologies for being rather mean with you there.

[Mephisto]

You misread my post. I said it was two against one. To be specific, it was two Asians against a white guy with an Asian girlfriend.

Sorry, it was clearly a case of racism then and I would have sided with the White guy. Still, the lady could have been a relative of one of the guys and could have reacted violently to your joining in the fray.

[Kerberos]

And to you, rape is comparable to armed robbery, which you compared in the last post. Gotcha.
Yes comparable though less severe, you have påroblems with readind plain English I see,


So in the majority of armed robbery cases, mental harm is not severely crippling, right?
I never said othwerwise, and of cause in most cases of even severe physical assault the victim isn't permanently cripled either.

...And? Do you have a point, or do you just want to compare dick sizes?
I was going to ask you the same, but I think I know the answer, so i think I'll bow out of the "discussion" pigs, mud and all that.

[Lonewulf]

I was going to ask you the same, but I think I know the answer...
I'm sure you think a lot of things.

...so i think I'll bow out of the "discussion" pigs, mud and all that.

Back at you.

I don't even understand what you were disagreeing with. Mental harm with rape is bad. Mental harm with robbery is not as bad. Okay, so what? Okay, that's great. End of argument.

Moving on.