Kent Hovind's 1996 tax case: I'm not a US citizen, therefore I don't pay taxes

[Questioninggeller]

Kent Hovind is one of the most famous creationists. How people admire and/or accept his reasoning is truly disappointing.

Look at this case from 1996:

In Re Hovind, 197 B.R. 157 (Bankr. N.D. Fla. 1996)

Debtor Kent E. Hovind was a tax protester who filed a Chapter 13 Bankruptcy Petition after the IRS had seized three vehicles, a homemade trailer, and $54 in cash. Mr. Hovind had never filed a tax return (the IRS had filed them on his behalf), did not acknowledge that he was a citizen of the U.S. nor subject to its tax laws, and claimed that he was was "an evangelist employed by God". On his bankruptcy schedules, he declared that he had no property, received no income, had no expenses, and had no creditors (except for the IRS, which filed a claim for $10,690 in unpaid taxes). In finding that Mr. Hovind had filed false schedules, the Court noted that he had a home with recently installed central air conditioning, and sent all three children to a private Christian school at a cost of $4,800 per year. Under these facts, the Court had no difficulty in holding that the petition was filed in bad faith, and that he was ineligible for Chapter 13 relief under 11 U.S.C. Section 109(e) because he had no income. "The evidence presented at the hearing paints a clear portrait of a tax protester whose sole purpose in seeking relief under Chapter 13 was to obtain the release of property seized by the IRS." His petition was therefore dismissed.
...

Source: Todd Trierweiler & Associates (http://web.archive.org/web/19991115015837/www.teleport.com/~mrbswb/casemonth.html)

So it is that simple to avoid paying taxes: Call the government corrupt, and say your not a citizen anymore. Since you aren't a citizen you don't have to pay taxes. That's the type of reasoning Hovind carries into the creationist debate.

You can view another court document in 1998 when he again renounces US citizenship to become a "a natural citizen of 'America' and a natural sojourner. (http://205.152.130.14/or_1b.asp?uinstr=1998483189)"

[Beleth]

How To Renounce US Citizenship
(http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html)
If he didn't do those things, then he didn't renounce his citizenship.

If he did do those things, he should have stayed in the foreign state he renounced it in. Otherwise he's almost certainly an illegal alien.

[Bob Klase]

As far as not being a citizen, I'm fairly certain that even back in 1996 you had to pay taxes on money you earned here whether you were a citizen or not.

[ponderingturtle]

How To Renounce US Citizenship
(http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html)
If he didn't do those things, then he didn't renounce his citizenship.

If he did do those things, he should have stayed in the foreign state he renounced it in. Otherwise he's almost certainly an illegal alien.

THat is what I thought, good if he is not a citizen then we should kick his illegal alien butt out of the country after he serves his jail term. Go deportation.

[Questioninggeller]

Clearly Hovind never legally renounced his citizenship or planned on moving out of the US. It was just a tax/debt ploy.

In related matters, Hovind was moved from a minimum security prison (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=82156) to United States Penitentiary in Atlanta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Penitentiary%2C_Atlanta), a high security prison. Hovind just won't play by the rules when it doesn't suit his agenda. Reality is probably going to set in for him soon enough.

Science couldn't convince him he was wrong, nor could bankruptcy court, the IRS, federal court, nor minimum secuirty prison. Maybe time in a United States Penitentiary will?

[Questioninggeller]

Here is the document where Hovind just declares himself no longer subject to US law:

Kent E. Hovind
C/O 29 Cummings Rd.
Pensacola, Florida, USA 32503

Power of Attorney and Revocation of Signature

To who it may concern: I/we Kent E. Hovind and Jo Hovind am a sovereign American located in Escambia County and Republic State of Florida, but not the corporate “bankrupt” body of politic or either, and am a natural American. I/we do hereby revoke and make void per uniform commercial code (UCC) section 2-608 ab intio, all signatures on any instruments and any express or implied power of attorney therewith, in fact or assumption, signed either by me or anyone acting as my agent, or assign, signed or unsigned, as it pertains to any birth certificates, to any ponzi scheme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme) being a social security number any documents or certificates by governmental/quasi entities, due to the use of various elements of fraud and misrepresentations, duress, coercion, under perjury, mistake, “bankruptcy,” any and all bank cards, UCC 1 – 103 remedies are reserved at all times. I hereby cancel, repudiate and refuse to accept any “benefits, privileges and/or opportunities such as speedier zip coded patented mail assuming any foreign jurisdiction. I/we Kent E. Hovind and Jo Hovind, do hereby revoke, cancel, annul, repeal, withdraw, recant, negate, nullify, strike, repudiate, disavow, recall, renounce, disclaim, reject, all signatures prior to April 15, 1998. Never is my/our name referred to in all capital letters. I/we are not a “fictious, artificial, created entity” of the “bankrupt” corporate government. I/we are not a U.S. citizen, not residing in federal territory. I/we are a natural citizen of “America” and a natural sojourner. I/we are the sole and absolute possessor/owner and possess absolute unqualified full right allodial title to any and all property as a member of the American Republic with no effective connected trade or business within the United States or the State of Florida body-politic corporation. This instrument replaces, cancels, and repudiates the prior instrument that I filed with any office and any entity which may falsely assume jurisdiction over me. This is a matter of record this 15th day of April 1998 for all to see. All existing papers re done “without prejudice UCC 1 – 207 non-assumpt” to all.
So be it known

Kent E. Hovind
------------------
Sui juris, jus sanguinus, jure coronea

Jo Delia Hovind
-------------------
Sui juris, jus sanguinus, jure coronea


Source: Escambia County, Florida Clerks Office May 5, 1998 (http://205.152.130.14/or_1b.asp?uinstr=1998483189)

There is something seriously wrong with this man. He thinks he can just declare himself not a citizen subject to law.

[I reproduced the full document because 1) this is a public document 2) and/or Hovind says his material is not copyrighted (http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=68).]

[casebro]

Probably 10 years ago I read a tract called "The Tax Man's Secrets". In it, The theory put forward was that if you hold a SS card, and are a citizen, then you have a contract to pay federal income tax. So, based on the fact that you were probably too young to enter into the contract when you got the SS card, just renounce your citizenship of the USA, and you don't have to pay taxes. You would also claim that you ARE a citizen of one of the states. The authors would be glad to file the papers for you - for $600. Also, far to the back of the 30 pages erso, they explained that according to tax laws, if you believed what you do is legal, then you are only an avoider, with minor penalties, not an evader with possible jail time. So I guess if you tell the judge you believed the tract, you could get off lightly. Seemed to me to be a real scam that a lot of fools would fall for. I believe the authors went to jail... Sounds like Hovind fell for it.

[Zep]

There's simpler words for Hovind: Liar, and thief.

[valis]

Probably 10 years ago I read a tract called "The Tax Man's Secrets". In it, The theory put forward was that if you hold a SS card, and are a citizen, then you have a contract to pay federal income tax. So, based on the fact that you were probably too young to enter into the contract when you got the SS card, just renounce your citizenship of the USA, and you don't have to pay taxes. You would also claim that you ARE a citizen of one of the states. The authors would be glad to file the papers for you - for $600. Also, far to the back of the 30 pages erso, they explained that according to tax laws, if you believed what you do is legal, then you are only an avoider, with minor penalties, not an evader with possible jail time. So I guess if you tell the judge you believed the tract, you could get off lightly. Seemed to me to be a real scam that a lot of fools would fall for. I believe the authors went to jail... Sounds like Hovind fell for it.

I always wonder what goes through the minds of people that buy into this stuff. Just assume for a second that their arguments really have some sort of legal merit. Do they really think that a court is going to wipe out the entire revenue collection system of the federal government based on any legal argument?

[Aepervius]

I can't remmember the name of the web page , but there is one made by a real lawyer, which list all tax escape myth and say why they are dead wrong. Renouncing US citizenship is MOST probably among them because after living in a few country, I know of not a single country which link income tax on citizenship. If you are a legal worker then you pay income tax. Point. Final. I know there are some subtelity on when you live in a country and work in another but in the case of Kent Hoving this is not the case.

He probably read some web site about on how to escape tax and trusted it.

[Fronzel]

I seem to remember there being a point where Hovind was saying they had the wrong guy because the forms came to KENT HOVIND which was an attempt by the government to steal his identity and frame him. He ignored it because he is Kent Hovind, not KENT HOVIND. Or something.

I can only hope he really is this delusional.

[CFLarsen]

Since you aren't a citizen you don't have to pay taxes.

I'll be....

I got a big fat cheque from the IRS coming my way, then. I am not an American citizen, but I paid taxes while I lived and worked there.

[Slimething]

I can't remmember the name of the web page , but there is one made by a real lawyer, which list all tax escape myth and say why they are dead wrong.

Is this (http://www.adl.org/mwd/suss1.asp)it? Very entertaining. You'll find all of Hovind's dodges there, all treated with appropriate contempt by the courts.

Too bad Hovind didn't try this in China:

Tax evasion is a crime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime) in almost all countries and subjects the guilty party to fines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine) and/or imprisonment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprisonment) - in China the punishment is death.

(quoted from the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_evasion))

[Zep]

I seem to remember there being a point where Hovind was saying they had the wrong guy because the forms came to KENT HOVIND which was an attempt by the government to steal his identity and frame him. He ignored it because he is Kent Hovind, not KENT HOVIND. Or something.

I can only hope he really is this delusional.No, he's a liar and a thief. He tried blatantly to steal from the people of the USA (i.e. avoid paying taxes) by pretending he was a non-citizen and that he was running a "church". Where he is now and for how long is the result.

A good result for everyone.

[Aepervius]

Is this (http://www.adl.org/mwd/suss1.asp)it? Very entertaining. You'll find all of Hovind's dodges there, all treated with appropriate contempt by the courts.


It might have been. Although I remmembered it as being a very long web page without link with a lot of "#" jumper link.

The bottom line is : "there is no way they would allow you skip income tax".

[Beady]

From the link in Post #2:


E. TAX & MILITARY OBLIGATIONS /NO ESCAPE FROM PROSECUTION
Also, persons who wish to renounce U.S. citizenship should also be aware that the fact that a person has renounced U.S. citizenship may have no effect whatsoever on his or her U.S. tax or military service obligations (contact the Internal Revenue Service or U.S. Selective Service for more information). In addition, the act of renouncing U.S. citizenship will not allow persons to avoid possible prosecution for crimes which they may have committed in the United States, or escape the repayment of financial obligations previously incurred in the United States.

[BPSCG]

Where he is now and for how long is the result.

A good result for everyone.No it isn't, because I have to pay for his food, clothing, and shelter.

These tax evasion things are a scam, not on the government, but on the people who buy into them. Some guy comes up with a novel legal theory of why you don't have to pay taxes, and for only $5,000 he'll explain it to you and set you up with the proper legal mechanism so you, too can skip paying taxes. He gets rich, actually pays his taxes (sometimes), you go to jail, as does he (sometimes).

[AudioFreak]

So wait... if Kent is in jail and the IRS is taking all his money, does that mean he can't actually pay to have my tailbone removed like he promised in his slideshow?

[MelBrooksfan]

So wait... if Kent is in jail and the IRS is taking all his money, does that mean he can't actually pay to have my tailbone removed like he promised in his slideshow?

I'm afraid so. However, I do believe there's a fair share of blackmarket doctors who would do it fairly inexpensively.

[Simon Bridge]

Just to give you an idea how hard it is to avoid income tax... the situation at CERN is complex. Since CERN spans three(?) countries, employees there arrange things so they don't pay any income tax at all... directly. However, their CERN income is still factored into any tax rate on any other income they may have depending on the country where they earned it.

Google "CERN income tax" if you want a headache.

What I got from a colleague who worked there some yeares ago was that France taxed according to where you live and Switzerland according to where you work. So everyone at CERN works in France and lives in Switzerland.

However, the gloss was starting to wear off high energy physics, the EU us more unified, so there were moves to close the loophole. Looks like the beurocrats opted for a complex solution.


In Britain, there is a clear gap between where England ends and Scotland begins. As you pay tax according to where you live, one wonders what would happen if you built your house is this gap (which is big enough).

What am I saying, you'd never get planning permission!

I wonder who pays for the bit of road?

[ponderingturtle]

No it isn't, because I have to pay for his food, clothing, and shelter.

These tax evasion things are a scam, not on the government, but on the people who buy into them. Some guy comes up with a novel legal theory of why you don't have to pay taxes, and for only $5,000 he'll explain it to you and set you up with the proper legal mechanism so you, too can skip paying taxes. He gets rich, actually pays his taxes (sometimes), you go to jail, as does he (sometimes).

Recently they have started patenting tax shelters in the US.

[AudioFreak]

Recently they have started patenting tax shelters in the US.

Tax shelters? As in a place to stay when the IRS takes your house?

[BPSCG]

Recently they have started patenting tax shelters in the US.Tax shelters are not necessarily scams. Some of them are abusive, and when the IRS catches you, you're in a world of hurt. But think about it. If you own a house, it's a tax shelter; the interest you pay on your mortgage is deductible from your adjusted gross income. It's a legal tax shelter. So are IRAs and 401(k)'s.

Do you have a link regarding the patenting of tax shelters? I don't see how you can prevent someone from putting his money in the same kind of tax-sheltered investment as the patented one.

[ponderingturtle]

Tax shelters are not necessarily scams. Some of them are abusive, and when the IRS catches you, you're in a world of hurt. But think about it. If you own a house, it's a tax shelter; the interest you pay on your mortgage is deductible from your adjusted gross income. It's a legal tax shelter. So are IRAs and 401(k)'s.

Do you have a link regarding the patenting of tax shelters? I don't see how you can prevent someone from putting his money in the same kind of tax-sheltered investment as the patented one.

NPR Story (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6566273)

Patenet office listing tax patents (http://www.uspto.gov/patft/class705_sub36t.html)

Keep in mind that using one of these patented strategies would be infringement on a patented business model, you could end up paying much more in a law suit than you would on your taxes.

[Checkmite]

I'm sorry, but whenever somebody is hauled to court for tax reasons and tries to bring out this argument, I can't help but think they must be devoid of anything resembling intelligence.

Tax protester arguments on their face may sound absolutely brilliant, and even in some cases at least halfway reasonable - which is why people keep repeating them, I guess. But these arguments have never once, in the entire history of litigation in these United States, met with success when used in legal proceedings. Not once - not ever, ever, ever. Never! EVERYONE WHO HAS EVER TRIED TO USE THESE BOGUS ARGUMENTS IN COURT HAS FAILED. What is it, do people just keep thinking "ah, but this time will be different!"? Idiots!

[HawaiiBigSis]

So if Mr. Hovind says that anything with his signature is void, then how does he figure to keep his house, which required a signature (actually, many, many, many signatures) to purchase?

[geni]

I always wonder what goes through the minds of people that buy into this stuff. Just assume for a second that their arguments really have some sort of legal merit. Do they really think that a court is going to wipe out the entire revenue collection system of the federal government based on any legal argument?

It's an issue of how the law is often presented to the public. We all hear about laws being overturned by court ruleings. We also hear about cases where in following the letter of the law courts have reached a ruleing that appears to be ah unreasonable.

The effect of this is that people are left with the impression that the law is a logical extrapolation of what is writen down. This combiened with the vague knowlage that there are legit methods of tax avoidance makes it appear not unreasonable that these techniques could work.

Of course the law doesn't actualy work like that (despite the claims of the courts from time to time that it does) but that is the picture that is presented to the general public.

[BillC]

As far as not being a citizen, I'm fairly certain that even back in 1996 you had to pay taxes on money you earned here whether you were a citizen or not.

You did. I certainly did.
And I see Claus has said the same.

[BillC]

I... do hereby revoke, cancel, annul, repeal, withdraw, recant, negate, nullify, strike, repudiate, disavow, recall, renounce, disclaim, reject, all signatures prior to April 15, 1998Well, I guess he gets full marks for trying to cover all his bases with that sentence.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Remember Kent Hovind's appearance on Da Ali G Show ? :D

[AudioFreak]

Hell yeah. He left a floater backstage.

[Zep]

No it isn't, because I have to pay for his food, clothing, and shelter.Why can't he pay for himself? He owes the state (i.e. the people) a LOT of money. So why not sell off his houses, land, cars, and other ill-gotten assets (and especially that pathetic DinosaurLand theme park), appropriate their bank accounts, etc, and use those funds, instead of the state/peoples' funds. Two problems solved at the same time...PLUS it stops his equally rotten children using it to further "the cause". And a good object lesson for other pseudo-tax-evaders too.

These tax evasion things are a scam, not on the government, but on the people who buy into them. Some guy comes up with a novel legal theory of why you don't have to pay taxes, and for only $5,000 he'll explain it to you and set you up with the proper legal mechanism so you, too can skip paying taxes. He gets rich, actually pays his taxes (sometimes), you go to jail, as does he (sometimes).You can't legislate against people being bone-headed pig-ignorant stupid, can you? Also, what is the situation on prosecuting people who peddle illegal "products"?

[Dr Adequate]

Oh, he's tried sillier things than renouncing his citizenship.

Dollars are not, in law, money:

Declarant states in the course of the year or years in question, all compensation Declarant received, regardless of source, were promissory deferred payments in the form of Federal Reserve Notes or bank credits denominated in Federal Reserve Notes, the latter redeemable solely in Federal Reserve Notes and other obligations of the United States. Declarant did not receive payment in current coin of the United States authorized by Article I § 10 of the Constitution of the United States or in any other commodity with inherent or intrinsic value.

The States of the Union are not, in law, part of the United States:

Declarant is not now and never has been a citizen or resident of the geographical United States, including the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, Guam, American Samoa, and the Northern Mariana Islands.

The term "whoever" does not include Kent Hovind:

Declarant is not nor has ever claimed to be a “whoever” as that term is construed in the statutes.

Kent Hovind is not, in law, a person:

Declarant is not nor has ever claimed to be a “person” as that term is construed in the statutes.

[AudioFreak]

I think we need to start up a Kent Hovind fan site!

[Slimething]

Why can't he pay for himself?

For one, I am more than happy to pay for a rudimentary living for people like Hovind. My only regret is that such accommodation came somewhat late.

Suppose people like Hovind (sociophathic, delusional, etc.) were placed in appropriate "homes" to keep them from harming other people as soon as these traits were recognized. The taxpayers would have to foot the bill then as well. Obviously, it would be a scarier world to live in for society to lock people up based on psychological profiles so I don't want or envision this situation arising soon. But, the real question is whether or not locking up Hovind, at any cost, protects society more than it costs and my answer is a resounding YES.

I'll let the IRS take away his assets and turn them into a lowering of the public debt, new roads or even food for wildlife in a public park. I all comes out in the wash.


You can't legislate against people being bone-headed pig-ignorant stupid, can you?


That would be more effective but the cost of all those prisons would be ruinous. Not only that, who would staff them?

[Aepervius]

That would be more effective but the cost of all those prisons would be ruinous. Not only that, who would staff them?

Step 1 : remove warning label (don't use electric appliance while bathing, don't spill hot stuff on your lap, don't smoke it is dangerous for your health, do not use in enclosed space etc...etc...etc...)

Step 2 : there is no step 2. Darwin award are just much more numerous than before.

[ktesibios]

I can't remmember the name of the web page , but there is one made by a real lawyer, which list all tax escape myth and say why they are dead wrong.

I'll betcha you're thinking of Dan Evans' Tax Protester FAQ (http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html). This is a very handy resource for when someone forwards you an email pushing Russo's "Freedom to Fascism" or a link to some tinfoil-hat tax CT site.

[Zep]

For one, I am more than happy to pay for a rudimentary living for people like Hovind. My only regret is that such accommodation came somewhat late.

Suppose people like Hovind (sociophathic, delusional, etc.) were placed in appropriate "homes" to keep them from harming other people as soon as these traits were recognized. The taxpayers would have to foot the bill then as well. Obviously, it would be a scarier world to live in for society to lock people up based on psychological profiles so I don't want or envision this situation arising soon. But, the real question is whether or not locking up Hovind, at any cost, protects society more than it costs and my answer is a resounding YES.

I'll let the IRS take away his assets and turn them into a lowering of the public debt, new roads or even food for wildlife in a public park. I all comes out in the wash.Good points.

My own thoughts today are that until they demonstrate that they are a danger to themselves or the public, they should be OK to live unhindered. Which means they should be subject to the same laws as the public usually are. So when they commit crimes and are convicted, they need to suffer the "usual" prescribed punishment as well. Unless it can be shown that they are indeed criminally insane (unaware that their actions are a crime). In which case they will probably be institutionalised and for a lot longer. And such is the case in a number of US states, I understand.

Kent's problem is that if he accepts he has done a criminal act, or refuses to allow he has, he concedes he understands that it is indeed a criminal act at all. And so he has to go through the usual process of law as competent to stand trial. However if he pretends he is unaware, or is truly unaware, that he is committing a criminal offence, he faces serious time in the looney bin with treatment to follow.



That would be more effective but the cost of all those prisons would be ruinous. Not only that, who would staff them?There seems to be an ENORMOUS amount of money that white-collar criminals misappropriate - millions if not billions at a time. It is not unusual currently for these crims to accept the five year jail time, then go free and "retire" for the rest of their lives with their ill-gotten gains in the hell-holes of Malaga or Bermuda or Monaco, etc.

I'd suggest that such amounts as they stole be their "fine" as part of their sentence, and that it be put either towards the victim by way of compensation, towards the state to pay for the jail-maintenance, or into consolidated revenue for the general good.

[quixotecoyote]

I'd suggest that such amounts as they stole be their "fine" as part of their sentence, and that it be put either towards the victim by way of compensation, towards the state to pay for the jail-maintenance, or into consolidated revenue for the general good.

The problem with that is if the money can be found, they have to give it back to the victim. After that they don't have the money to pay the fine.