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Malachi151
15th August 2003, 08:56 AM
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/bw/20030709/bs_bw/nf20030793133db042&e=5

"CORPORATE DEATH SENTENCE. So why are Americans working harder than ever? The reason is that while technology has evolved, people haven't. If your employer discovers that a computer can cut the time it takes to do your job in half, is he going to let you work half your current hours for the same pay? No. When times are good, he'll ask you to produce twice as much work, or if times are bad, he'll fire half his employees. CEOs, driven by profit-seeking investors, want to squeeze as much output from each employee as possible."

"The productivity miracle kept the economy afloat during the 1990s, or so goes the mantra among most American economists. From the workers' perspective, however, the fact that technology enabled them to crank out more widgets per hour than they did a decade earlier wasn't exactly a blessing. Pay for the average worker [not top executives] grew just 0.5% annually after inflation during the 1990s, according to the Center for Economic & Policy Research, a Washington think tank. During the same period, the average CEO's salary grew 342%. Meanwhile, average annual hours worked grew from 1,783 to 1,878 -- about 12 additional days of work per year."

"MORE DEMAND NEEDED. The typical Joe or Josephine have only two ways to benefit from the productivity miracle. One is to have close to full employment in the country. Such was the case during the latter part of the boom -- 1997, 1998, and 1999 -- and workers made significant wage gains during that period. With unemployment at the 3% or 4% range, they had more leverage to pressure employers for better wages, hours, or benefits."

Add to that the data I have provided in other threads with proves that taxes on the wealthy have gone down consistantly over the past 80 years, and have continued to go down over the past 20 years while taxes on the middle class and poor have gone up, we now have a regressive tax system with the poor and middle paying higher rates than the wealthy.

How rich can they get?

http://www.workers.org/ww/2003/gap0710.php

That was proven yet again with the release of the Spring 2003 Statistics of Income Bulletin by the Internal Revenue Service on June 26. It shows that in 2000 the 400 individuals reporting the highest incomes in the United States accounted for more than 1 percent of all income received. This was more than double their share of the national income back in 1992.

In the nine years covered by this report, the income of the top 400 increased 15 times faster than that of the bottom 90 percent. The median income for the population as a whole in 2000 was $27,000. This means that half of the families in the United States made more than $27,000 and half made less--some a lot less.

To be in that select group, the top 400, however, you had to rake in at least $86.8 million. Some had incomes of more than $1 billion.

Part of the reason why the wealthiest 400 got so much richer was due to the stock market bubble of the 1990s. But the figures in the report indicate that the wealthiest 400 also took advantage of a big reduction in the capital gains tax in 1997, which was lowered from 28 percent to 20 percent. This tax applies to money made by selling stocks at a gain.

Since then, Bush has lowered the tax on capital gains even further, to 15 percent, so the income of these richest people will rise even more.

At the same time, the Census Bureau reports that median income went down from 2000 to 2001, which means that poor people were making less at the same time the richest of the rich were doing even better.

Some 63.2 million tax returns report incomes of less than $50,000, while 2.8 million report incomes of over $200,000. These wealthier people reported a total income of $1.7 trillion, of which $483 billion was from the sale of capital assets, mostly stocks and bonds. Very few households with an income less than $50,000 own stock. Bush's tax cuts are almost entirely for the richest of the rich.

The income gap between rich and poor in the United States is many times greater than in other developed capitalist countries.

There are other significant gaps in income distribution in the United States. Men make more than women for the same work; African Americans make less than whites, and even at the same income level have significantly less wealth--savings, investments in a house, pensions--which makes it harder for them to survive economically when they lose income. But the struggles against racism and sexism and for affirmative action have somewhat narrowed these gaps.

The only thing that will reverse the growing polarization of rich and poor, however, is a broad and militant working class struggle that threatens the very system of capitalism itself.

What does it take?

The middle is paying about 45% to 50% tax rate now, the top 1% about 25 to 30%, and that only counts income, and does not even count the wealthy who have mostly just dividend and capital gains income, or possibly no income just resting on millions and billions of dollars.

When the top 1% own 95% of the country's wealth will it be enough, maybe 99%?

Solitaire
15th August 2003, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Malachi151
The middle is paying about 45% to 50% tax rate now, the top 1% about 25 to 30%, and that only counts income, and does not even count the wealthy who have mostly just dividend and capital gains income, or possibly no income just resting on millions and billions of dollars.

When the top 1% own 95% of the country's wealth will it be enough, maybe 99%?

It matters not how much they have as a percentage, but on whether the
rest of us can get by on what remains. Great wealth is not a big problem,
it great income where most of the problem hides.

:)

Pyrrho
15th August 2003, 03:45 PM
I can't complain about taxes. President Bush just sent me a nice check.

Charlie Monoxide
15th August 2003, 04:56 PM
I can't complain about taxes. President Bush just sent me a nice check.

Does he have your vote next year?

Charlie (lend me some kids) Monoxide

Iconoclast
16th August 2003, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by Malachi151
CEOs, driven by profit-seeking investors, want to squeeze as much output from each employee as possible
It's unfortunate, but it's really very hard to find loss-seeking investors these days.

The Central Scrutinizer
17th August 2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Iconoclast

It's unfortunate, but it's really very hard to find loss-seeking investors these days.

LOL!!! :D

The Central Scrutinizer
17th August 2003, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Malachi151
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/bw/20030709/bs_bw/nf20030793133db042&e=5



Add to that the data I have provided in other threads with proves that taxes on the wealthy have gone down consistantly over the past 80 years, and have continued to go down over the past 20 years while taxes on the middle class and poor have gone up, we now have a regressive tax system with the poor and middle paying higher rates than the wealthy.

How rich can they get?

http://www.workers.org/ww/2003/gap0710.php



What does it take?

The middle is paying about 45% to 50% tax rate now, the top 1% about 25 to 30%, and that only counts income, and does not even count the wealthy who have mostly just dividend and capital gains income, or possibly no income just resting on millions and billions of dollars.

When the top 1% own 95% of the country's wealth will it be enough, maybe 99%?

:v:

More whining from those who want everything handed to them.

Malachi151
17th August 2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer


:v:

More whining from those who want everything handed to them.

So you think that its appropriate that you pay a larger portion of your income to taxes than multi-millionairs? Okay.

The Central Scrutinizer
17th August 2003, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Malachi151


So you think that its appropriate that you pay a larger portion of your income to taxes than multi-millionairs? Okay.

You're assuming I'm not a multi-millionaire.

So your solution seems to be, "if you want to pay lower taxes, become a multi-millionaire"?? You can't be serious.

shanek
17th August 2003, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by Malachi151
"CORPORATE DEATH SENTENCE. So why are Americans working harder than ever?

ARE Americans working harder than ever? I think time should be taken to examine that without just assuming it. Even manual labor jobs are being made less strenuous and demanding thanks to automation and technology.

This is what the legendary John Henry didn't understand. He was determined to beat the machine. Although he ultimately did, it cost him his life. How much happier would he have been sitting on the mining machine working pedals and knobs than trying to do it all himself with axes and shovels?

If your employer discovers that a computer can cut the time it takes to do your job in half, is he going to let you work half your current hours for the same pay? No.

Of course not. Becaus then the economy isn't at full production.

We could all work for about an hour a day and maintain the standard of living we had 100 years ago. But who among is would want to do without the central heat and air, TV with DVD player, car, and any of the other advances this extra work has brought us?

If YOU want to live that way, there are part-time jobs out there. I'll even help you fight the government for your right to live without running water if that's what you really want.

Pay for the average worker [not top executives] grew just 0.5% annually after inflation during the 1990s, according to the Center for Economic & Policy Research, a Washington think tank. During the same period, the average CEO's salary grew 342%.

Couldn't possibly be because the CEOs' jobs were much more imporant now, were they?

This is what you keep blathering on about...You keep pointing out how much more the rich are bringing in than the poor while glossing over the fact that the poor are still better off than they were before! EVERYBODY benefits!

If you were to cut off that 300+% growth in the CEOs' salaries, then expect that 5% to disappear from the workers' salaries, too.

I will totally agree, though, that the tax system is unfair...That's why I'm for giving everyone a 100% tax cut and funding the government with user fees and excises.

shanek
17th August 2003, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by Pyrrho
I can't complain about taxes. President Bush just sent me a nice check.

I'd just like for someone to explain why I didn't get one. I've bloody well sent in enough in estimated taxes... :mad:

Tmy
17th August 2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by shanek


I'd just like for someone to explain why I didn't get one. I've bloody well sent in enough in estimated taxes... :mad:

Thats cause you dont have some public services sucking children!!! If you did youd be getting $400 a pop. And you would so deserve it. "Look at me I have kids....gimme gimme gimme!!"

Why no outrage about this unfair tax credit. Give some $15k a year loser a couple bucks back and everyone freaks.

shanek
17th August 2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Tmy
Thats cause you dont have some public services sucking children!!!

I have two kids.

Why no outrage about this unfair tax credit. Give some $15k a year loser a couple bucks back and everyone freaks.

Because my suspicion is that this is nothing more than a repeat of that bogus $600 refund we got the other year. (Yeah, and our taxes went up by $600. Some refund!)

Ion
17th August 2003, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer

...
More whining from those who want everything handed to them.
Everything?

Let's check:

1.) did you hand me proficiency in four languages?

2.) did you hand me an advanced Electrical Engineering degree?

3.) were you in the team that designed the 56k modem for which I wrote a functional spec and wrote pieces of software?

4.) did you hand me fast times in swimming competitions this year?

5.) could you keep up with human values needed for achieving 1.) thru 4.), no matter if you are a multi-millionaire, no matter that you start whining when trying to keep up?

The reason I do 1.) thru 4.) is because the multi-millionaires are the whiners, not me:

me -like thousands of others-, I receive help, I give help, and I achieve some.

Malachi151
17th August 2003, 07:47 PM
Couldn't possibly be because the CEOs' jobs were much more imporant now, were they?

Well, let's see. At my previous job it was a "start up" software company. All teh programer were convinced to work at well below market value and were promised "big benfits' when the company became successful. Meanwhile a CEO was hired on. His starting salary for our 10 man compnay at the time was $400,000 a year, while us programmers were making less that $50,000 a year.

The Project Manager totally sucked at his job, he didn't mange anything, he left a lot, and was cheating on his wife constantly so he had issues to deal with there. He was also making over $100,000 a year, yet we the programming team had to make up for his inadequacy. He also had a golden parachute, so he could not get fired.

We received performance shares for our extra hard work, such as staying 'til 11:00 pm or coming in on weekinds, instead of pay.

The salesmen we hired all made more than us, the programmers, yet they were never able to really get the sales to a level to be considered "successful" it was alwasy one or two sales a month below what we need to be termmed a "success", so because fo that we got no raises for 2 years.

The programing team often provided anwsers to problems and often proposed ways to improve teh product or the company, but were not listened to by managemet. Management made many mistakes that we had discussed ourselves and ona few occassion they went against our advice adn then figured out why later after it was too late.

Eventually they had to lay off half of the workforce, which had grown to about 40 people due to poor sales adn a series of mistakes, most of which had been things that we the programers had advised against. We had to sit and watch poor deceisions being made for about 2 years while our executive took in salaries of hundreds of thousand sof dollars, we were denied raises, and were instead given performance shares.

They then said that they regretted but the performance shares were not working out and they would have to be cancelled and they paid us ~$20 for the shares, which was shortly before I left. I never got the raises I was promised, nor did anyone else, and I didn't get crap for the extra work I put in. They now have a piece of software that sells for about $50,000 a copy, of which I wrote about 20% of it, and designed about 15% of it. For that I was underpaid for 5 years.

No, CEO's aren't "that much more" important than anyone else.

Let's see, we have had company executives for over 200 years, but in just the last 20 years their pay has gone up by 300%. Why have CEO's become so much more important in the past 20 years?

The CEO of company I used to work for ran it into the ground, and made over $2 million doing it while denying raises to other workers, the programmers no less, the people who made the one and only product that our company was selling. And the CEO was in his 50s and already a multi-millionair, from Texas no less.

So your solution seems to be, "if you want to pay lower taxes, become a multi-millionaire"?? You can't be serious.

The fact is that the middle class payes a higher percentage ofhteir income in taxes than the wealthy, fact. Your middle class worker is paying about 45% of their income to taxes, your guy making over a million a year is paying about 30%. Taxes on the wealthy are lower now than any time since the 1920s. Taxes on the poor and middle class are higher than pretty much any time in the history of America. The poor and middle class went essentially untaxed until WWII and the need to raise taxes for that war, and essentially the highest taxes every levied on the middle and poor have been since the 1980s.

And the fact is that in terms of income, the wealthy essentally keep the profits of the work of other people. They make whatever it is that they can keep their workers from making. They make the profits. The profits have gone up, because wages have not. Its not that they are working harder, its that workers are working harder and they re getting the profits.

Skeptic
18th August 2003, 08:08 AM
It's unfortunate, but it's really very hard to find loss-seeking investors these days.

Which is one of the main reasons why marxist countries are all starving. Nobody's stupid enough to invest in North Korea or Cuba, when the money will simply be stolen by Castro or whatshisname in the name of the "opressed people".

And then they give the money to their army to shoot those who want to leave their "paradise of the workers".

Strange, isn't it?

Skeptic
18th August 2003, 08:17 AM
Well, let's see. At my previous job it was a "start up" software company. All teh programer were convinced to work at well below market value and were promised "big benfits' when the company became successful. Meanwhile a CEO was hired on. His starting salary for our 10 man compnay at the time was $400,000 a year, while us programmers were making less that $50,000 a year.

But, Malachi, your poor CEO was HIRED with a SALARY. Surely, like every good marxist, you know that this means he doesn't control the capital. Sure, you programmers were working for little money (relatively speaking), but you all had those WONDERFUL stock options, did you not? You were going to OWN the means of productions (the company), unlike the poor sucker, the CEO, who actually insisted on getting money instead. Poor fool; what does it matter what the salary is, as long as you programmers controlled the company with your stock options? Have you ever seen a "dollar-a-year" salary executive iwho is really poor?

Essentially, Malachi, you're just pissed at the rich because you were stupid enough to buy into the dot-com hype of "we're all going to be millionaires due to our stock options!!!". Strangely, it was only AFTER this pipe dreamed disappeared that you became a Marxist who hates the evil rich... just like someone who become sooooooo convinced that all women are lying and manipulating bitc--es after his girlfriends dumps him.

Your cries of "the rich are evil!" are not those of justice, but merely those of one who is disappointed he couldn't participate in it himself.

Mr Manifesto
18th August 2003, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by Skeptic
It's unfortunate, but it's really very hard to find loss-seeking investors these days.

Which is one of the main reasons why marxist countries are all starving. Nobody's stupid enough to invest in North Korea or Cuba, when the money will simply be stolen by Castro or whatshisname in the name of the "opressed people".


You really have no idea about America's undeclared war on Cuba, do you?