Does anyone else back up William Rodriguez's story?

[Gravy]

You do know the difference between a liquid and a gas correct?
Where was the fuel dumped? Besides, we are talking about the jetfuel vapor (gas form), not the fuel itself (liquid form). So according to you, the jet fuel placed in the jet is white to begin with? Everytime I filled the old kerosene heater, the kerosene was clear liquid form.
:jaw-dropp
You are so right. We all know that clouds, being made of water, are clear.


No, I'm stating there wasn't kerosene vapor at all and that kerosene smoke when burnt is not white.
Kerosene when burnt is dark and black not white.



The smoke generator vaporized liquid kerosene by adding heat and emitted a dense white smoke through a nozzle.
http://portal.acm.org/ft_gateway.cfm?id=886030&type=pdf&coll=GUIDE&dl=GUIDE&CFID=72262775&CFTOKEN=77512020

A smoke generator capable of producing a stable source of smoke over a prolonged period by pyrolysis of aviation kerosene was developed. The smoke levels and characteristics are representative of aircraft engine smoke.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1985STIN...8617702G

The "smoke", which is vaporized kerosene, is produced using a Preston-Sweeting mist generator. (photo of smoke included). http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~devenpor/aoe3054/manual/expt1/index.html (http://www.aoe.vt.edu/%7Edevenpor/aoe3054/manual/expt1/index.html)

United States Patent 3964304 Smoke generator

1. In combination, a wind tunnel for testing models in a moving airflow and a smoke generator disposed within the wind tunnel to produce smoke for visually indicating the airflow in the wind tunnel during a test comprising...

The flow of this fluid which may be any fluid which produced a visable smoke when vaporized such as kerosene, fuel oil, hydraulic oil or diffusion pumo oil, to the generator is controlled by needle valve 24.

Kerosene smoke generator for flow visualization
http://books.google.com/books?id=nh0S42qf2mEC&pg=PA373&lpg=PA373&dq=kerosene+smoke+generator&source=web&ots=FPQnOkWjYx&sig=RzDh8VBBZSZb0QwliABMpzIO3iU#PPA373,M1

Wind Tunnel Flow Visualization
...found that kerosene produces the best quality smoke. http://www.google.com/search?q=aircraft+smoke+generator+kerosene&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

BANGALORE: Ever wondered why auto rickshaws emit thick white smoke whenever they halt. The reason behind this is the spiralling cost of petrol and the extended time frame for conversion of petrol-run auto rickshaws into Liquid Petrol Gas (LPG).

Most autos in the city are allegedly using the cheaper ‘white petrol’ (kerosene). Petrol costs Rs. 47 and along with oil one has to shell out Rs. 53, while white petrol is only Rs. 24 per litre in the grey market.
http://bangalorebuzz.blogspot.com/2005/08/white-petrol-makes-for-black-smoke-and.html

The reason you need to do this is that the valve of a pressure kerosene stove has to be heated before you light the stove. If you fail to do this, all of your pumping will only have resulted in a spurt of kerosene pouring out of the burner, accompanied by a puff of white smoke and, you guessed it, the smell of kerosene. http://www.sailblogs.com/member/alexmorton/


You can even drive away your woo-woo with a model choo-choo:

When getting up steam on kerosene-soaked charcoal, a prodigious amount of smoke is produced, adding greatly to the ambiance.
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/8790465c2b3c7c7ef.jpg

I know you have seen the impact videos. Where is the white smoke?

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/8790465c2ad907b1f.jpg



Where is the white smoke in the lobby from the Naudet Brother's film?
With the amount of damage in the basement, one would expect to see large amounts of white smoke in and around the lobby's or at least coming out of the garage areas near ground level.

One Saturday morning Tom and I go down to the club house and decide to start up the stove, go for breakfast until the place warmed up a little, and then do a little work on our cars. It wasn't always an easy thing to do, getting that contraption started. Some of the guys seemed to have a knack for starting the thing. You needed to heat and evaporate the kerosene to start the combustion process. ...About an hour later we return to the garage and enter through the door. The whole place is full of white smoke. I don't mean a little white smoke, I mean a lot. You couldn't even see your hand in front of your face. The salamander is puffing away with pulses of flames in the tub, and goops of that white smoke pouring from its stack. It was the only thing you could see inside the garage. I carefully walked over to the monster and put my foot on the air vent on the fill cap to the tub. I quickly open and close the vent. The thing backfires, and all of a sudden, the garage fills with a big fireball. It goes out instantly and the air in the garage is as clear as a bell.
http://www.draglist.com/HemiHunter/pistonpushers.htm

[gumboot]

You do know the difference between a liquid and a gas correct?
Where was the fuel dumped? Besides, we are talking about the jetfuel vapor (gas form), not the fuel itself (liquid form). So according to you, the jet fuel placed in the jet is white to begin with? Everytime I filled the old kerosene heater, the kerosene was clear liquid form.


Um... I don't want to speak for beachnut, but he was a KC-135 Stratotanker pilot instructor for the USAF. I would imagine any fuel dumping he saw would have been at altitude, and thus in vapour form. And for what it's worth, jet fuel is dyed - as are all fuels - to distinguish between them. Gasoline is dyed pink, and I think jet fuel is dyed purple, but I could be wrong on that.




Where is the white smoke in the lobby from the Naudet Brother's film? With the amount of damage in the basement, one would expect to see large amounts of white smoke in and around the lobby's or at least coming out of the garage areas near ground level.


It's funny that you mention the Naudet brothers. I am sure you know about the damage they witnessed in the lobby of WTC1 from the fireball that erupted from the elevators?

-Gumboot

[Gravy]

By the way, Swing, I searched for, found, excerpted, linked, and posted all that information in under 36 minutes. Why are you unable to find such information at all?

It's amazing how much you won't find when you're not looking for it.

[gumboot]

Oh by the way... special effects people in New Zealand produce thick white smoke for the film industry using... you guessed it... kerosene.

If you ever see a (terrible) film called "Terror Peak" all of the white smoke in that film was produced using kerosene and heat.

-Gumboot

[Gravy]

If you ever see a (terrible) film called "Terror Peak" all of the white smoke in that film was produced using kerosene and heat.Sounds like Ruapehu! There seems to be a theme to today's posts.

[kookbreaker]

No, I'm stating there wasn't kerosene vapor at all and that kerosene smoke when burnt is not white.


I may be late to the party but, WRONG!

[gumboot]

Sounds like Ruapehu! There seems to be a theme to today's posts.



It's a terrible terrible American made-for-TV movie. But fortunately I was working 2nd Unit which is all stunts and special effects, so we had heaps of fun.

-Gumboot

[CHF]

I'm viewing the event within the official story. I could say that but can I prove that? No. I have already listed a potential suspect below.

Forget the official story. You think it's BS, remember?

So tell us what you think happened.

[Swing Dangler]

By the way, Swing, I searched for, found, excerpted, linked, and posted all that information in under 36 minutes. Why are you unable to find such information at all?It's amazing how much you won't find when you're not looking for it.

I searched using jetfuelA and vaporization.
Does kerosene have the exact chemical composition as jetfuel A?

Kerosene added to charcole to produce white smoke in your attempt at humor is an invalid example as to my knowledge there was no charcoal present in the stairwell where Ed McCabe saw the white smoke.

I stand corrected on the production of white smoke created from the process of the vaporizaton of kerosene in smoke generators.
However, did you read the details and the components necessary to create the vaporization process or just some links posted? And how in your right mind can you transfer those processess to the WTC: North Tower?
If you would, layout the scenario using the processes of vaporization to apply to the white smoke in the sublevels of WTC: North Tower I would greatly appreciate it.
Please include the ratio of oxygen to jetfuelA vapor, the saturation level of fuel in comparision to the level of vapor as well, and the appropriate temperatures associated with the production of the vapor.

Thankyou as well for dodging my other comments and questions to you.


Gravy-The thing backfires, and all of a sudden, the garage fills with a big fireball. It goes out instantly and the air in the garage is as clear as a bell. With no mention of damaged walls, windows blown out, burns to the people, etc..you know damage matching what was seen in the lobby and in the basement. Not a whole lot of over pressure in your example there nor any damage discussed by the folks who encountered a whole garage full of white smoke that created a fireball.

[CHF]

By the way, Swing, I searched for, found, excerpted, linked, and posted all that information in under 36 minutes. Why are you unable to find such information at all?

It's amazing how much you won't find when you're not looking for it.

You should have seen the time on SLC when I challenged him to contact engineers.

I ended up having to Google "engineering firms" for him. The very first hit was filled with the very contact info that Swing couldn't be bothered finding himself.

Even if 911 was an inside job the perps would have little to fear with such lazy researchers on their trail.

[Swing Dangler]

You should have seen the time on SLC when I challenged him to contact engineers. I ended up having to Google "engineering firms" for him. The very first hit was filled with the very contact info that Swing couldn't be bothered finding himself. Even if 911 was an inside job the perps would have little to fear with such lazy researchers on their trail.

I see your heading down the path the Admin's here warned you about. Classic.

What do I think happened?
I think terrorists used an explosive device in the sublevel garage area along with the impact of the planes. Until it is scientifically proven or empirical evidence is presented that a fireball or jetfuel from the impact area caused the extent of damage witnessed and experienced, the ED in the basement theory remains plausible. More so than the fireball theory according to the damage to the environment, the overpressure necessary to destroy a garage, a machine shop, cause a cave in at B-4, and a cave in at the PATH plaza all of which are inconsistent with the fireball.

The fireball excuse depends on two miracles taking place. The survival of the Griffiths.

I notice here for the most part, people want to argue burn damage but somehow avoid the environment damage. Is that because the enivronment damage is not consistent with a fireball and hence the offical story?

[Swing Dangler]

has anyone found supporting evidence to the 9 unprepared firefigthers that left Ed Mcabe alone in the dak in the basement of WTC: North Tower?

[CHF]

I think terrorists used an explosive device in the sublevel garage area along with the impact of the planes.

You're still refusing to name who you think these terrorists are. Al Qaeda? US government demolition squads? IRA? Tamil Tigers? Chechens? Do tell.

I think the answer to that lies in the fact that this "basement bomb" of yours was apparently set off at about the same time as the jet impacted. What was the point of such timing? Why would a terrorist group try so hard to cover up part of their attack? Right, they wouldn't.

The only people who would care whether or not this bomb blast was uncovered would be the government. Yet you refuse to name them.

The fireball excuse depends on two miracles taking place. The survival of the Griffiths.

And I'm sure you're doing everything you can to contact them.

I notice here for the most part, people want to argue burn damage but somehow avoid the environment damage. Is that because the enivronment damage is not consistent with a fireball and hence the offical story?

Do you have any idea what kind of damage was done by the 1993 bomb? Do you think people walked away from the blast area with fuel burns?

[Swing Dangler]

You're still refusing to name who you think these terrorists are. Al Qaeda? US government demolition squads? IRA? Tamil Tigers? Chechens? Do tell.
I think the answer to that lies in the fact that this "basement bomb" of yours was apparently set off at about the same time as the jet impacted. What was the point of such timing? Why would a terrorist group try so hard to cover up part of their attack? Right, they wouldn't.
The only people who would care whether or not this bomb blast was uncovered would be the government. Yet you refuse to name them.
And I'm sure you're doing everything you can to contact them.
Do you have any idea what kind of damage was done by the 1993 bomb? Do you think people walked away from the blast area with fuel burns?

I've already listed one suspect or did you miss that part ?
Right, they wouldn't.So you can speak for terrorists now? As I said earlier, I think the timing was to put a dual attack on the structure as close the impacts as possible. A 1-2 punch so to speak for the various reasons listed below.
What do you mean by "cover up" that part of their attack?

Also, which elevator shaft from the picture below do you think was responsible for the lobby destruction?

[Gravy]

I searched using jetfuelA and vaporization.
Does kerosene have the exact chemical composition as jetfuel A?


Immediately after I take you to task for being too lazy to do any research, you ask me to do your homework for you.

Jet-A Fuel/Kerosene MSDS (http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:FQoOP3V1HcIJ:www.usor.com/pdfs/msds/fuels/Jet_Fuel_MSDS.pdf)
This material will release flammable vapors
which if exposed to an ignition source can burn in the open or be
explosive in confined spaces. Mists or sprays may be flammable at
temperatures below the normal flash point.So long, Swing. Please learn to be an adult and not waste people's time.

Edit: now I see that you're too lazy to refer to the elevator shaft diagrams and eyewitness descriptions of express elevators causing lobby damage, which I took the time to provide in my Rodriguez paper. Instead you use a crude illustration that shows no detail.

You are some piece of work.

Grow up and stop wasting people's time.

[Gravy]

You should have seen the time on SLC when I challenged him to contact engineers.

I ended up having to Google "engineering firms" for him. The very first hit was filled with the very contact info that Swing couldn't be bothered finding himself.

Even if 911 was an inside job the perps would have little to fear with such lazy researchers on their trail.So true.

"The fate of the free world rests on the information that I KNOW is out there! Maybe tomorrow I'll start looking for it."

[CHF]

I've already listed one suspect or did you miss that part ?

No I saw it. I was waiting for you to explain who Sakher 'Rocky' Hammadly is and who he works for.

I think the timing was to put a dual attack on the structure as close the impacts as possible.

Why??? Why set off the bomb as close to the impacts as possible? Why not 5 minutes prior? Or 10 minutes later? Why the need to be so exact?

Also, which elevator shaft from the picture below do you think was responsible for the lobby destruction?

Oh boy, now you're even denying that the lobby was damaged by a blast from the jet fuel.

I wonder who set off the lobby bomb after the B-25 hit the Empire State Building back in the late 1940s. Any theories, Swing?

[Swing Dangler]

Immediately after I take you to task for being too lazy to do any research, you ask me to do your homework for you.
Jet-A Fuel/Kerosene MSDS (http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:FQoOP3V1HcIJ:www.usor.com/pdfs/msds/fuels/Jet_Fuel_MSDS.pdf)
So long, Swing. Please learn to be an adult and not waste people's time.
A simple yes or no would have sufficed. And I didnt' ask you to do research, I wanted to know what kind of answer I would get back from readers. A simple yes or no would have sufficed.

Oh and one chemical difference between the two are that additivies are placed into straight run kerosene to create jetfuel A to increase its freezing point. This of course changes the chemical makeup. So the simple answer of no would have sufficed. But instead you did what the moderators of the forum have asked you not to do.

This material will release flammable vapors
which if exposed to an ignition source can burn in the open or be
explosive in confined spaces. Mists or sprays may be flammable at
temperatures below the normal flash point.
And the white colored vapor from jetfuel A is to be found where?

Thanks again for avoiding all of my other questions and comments to you, I appreciate the bow out.

Oh and let me know if you want me to point out the other errors in your paper!

[KoihimeNakamura]

Try here:

http://www.gotfootage.com/thumb/A-272/A272-084.thumb.jpg


Secondly, he's not insulting you with an ad hom. He's pointing out you aren't doing your research and are belitting those who do. And, amusedly, you are accusing others of what you are doing in this thread.

Duck and run!

[Alt+F4]

Although I'm not sure of the location, we know that bomb sniffing dogs were abruptly removed from
the complex. NewYork Newsday (http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/attack/nynewsday_wtcdogs.html)

This abrutp removal of bomb sniffing dogs began the day after Rocky has his visitor/work pass to work on sprinklers.

There is no corroborating evidence that bomb-sniffing dogs were removed from the WTC in the days before 9/11. The "September 6" story, was reported only that one time in New York Newsday on 9/12/01. From the story:

"Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone threats. But on Thursday, bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed."

The Port Authority Police Department was in charge of security at the WTC, not some "guards". This story was never reported by any other media outlet and Daria Coard never made another statement about it. Who is she? Who was her employer?

PAPD Officer David Lim testified to the 9/11 Commission that he and bomb sniffing dog Sirius (killed in the attack) were on duty the morning of 9/11:

"On that fateful day, my job was checking vehicles that were entering the WTC Truck Dock for possible explosives. At about 0830hrs, I was in my office/kennel on the B-1 level #2WTC. About 15 minutes later, I felt the bldg shake. I left Sirius in his kennel & responded to the mezzanine of #1 WTC to assist people coming out of the "A" stairwell."

As for Sakher 'Rocky' Hammad he had a visitor's pass, not a work authorization. No work order from any plumbing company or WTC tenant has every been produced, no one witnesses him in the WTC basement and I've yet to see a first person quote from HIM stating he was working at the WTC.

If your contention is that he was wandering around there to possibly plant a bomb, there is absolutely no evidence for that.

[beachnut]

Oh and one chemical difference between the two are that additivies are placed into straight run kerosene to create jetfuel A to increase its freezing point. This of course changes the chemical makeup. So the simple answer of no would have sufficed. But instead you did what the moderators of the forum have asked you not to do.

And the white colored vapor from jetfuel A is to be found where?

Thanks again for avoiding all of my other questions and comments to you, I appreciate the bow out.

Oh and let me know if you want me to point out the other errors in your paper!

You can not find correct answers, how will you find errors.

Jet fuel dumped in the air is white like a cloud. In the dark it is black. Questions?

Why are you having problems with this? Even pdoh could find the a photo of http://www.habu.org/a-12/06924.html

[Gravy]

When jet fuel is white like a cloud. In the dark it is black. Questions? beachnut used to have the new E-1's check if there was fuel in the tank by using a match as a light. Oh, those hilarious days when hazing was legal!

[pomeroo]

A simple yes or no would have sufficed. And I didnt' ask you to do research, I wanted to know what kind of answer I would get back from readers. A simple yes or no would have sufficed.

Oh and one chemical difference between the two are that additivies are placed into straight run kerosene to create jetfuel A to increase its freezing point. This of course changes the chemical makeup. So the simple answer of no would have sufficed. But instead you did what the moderators of the forum have asked you not to do.


And the white colored vapor from jetfuel A is to be found where?

Thanks again for avoiding all of my other questions and comments to you, I appreciate the bow out.

Oh and let me know if you want me to point out the other errors in your paper!



Uh, Swingie, this is the JREF. We kind of noticed that you haven't pointed out any errors in Mark's paper.

Tell us again why not a single demolition expert anywhere in the world swallows the fantasist snake oil about explosives in the Twin Towers.

[PhantomWolf]

Explosions burn people, yes.

Then can you answer the question I asked a while back, what explosives can cause serious burns like those inflicted in the WTC?

[gumboot]

With no mention of damaged walls, windows blown out, burns to the people, etc..you know damage matching what was seen in the lobby and in the basement.



According to the firemen who were in the lobby of WTC1 the smashed windows and falling marble wall panels were as a result of the building moving (which is how they knew it might collapse), not a result of the fireball.

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

Also, which elevator shaft from the picture below do you think was responsible for the lobby destruction?


You do realise that's not an accurate reflection of the actual elevator system, right?

-Gumboot

[tsig]

has anyone found supporting evidence to the 9 unprepared firefigthers that left Ed Mcabe alone in the dak in the basement of WTC: North Tower?

The NWO kitty has the evidence.

[LashL]

The NWO kitty has the evidence.

And a barrel... and a gun...

[Swing Dangler]

You can not find correct answers, how will you find errors. Jet fuel dumped in the air is white like a cloud. In the dark it is black. Questions? Why are you having problems with this? Even pdoh could find the a photo of http://www.habu.org/a-12/06924.html

I have no doubt that the fuel (LIQUID) is white. The issue was jet vapor (GAS). No need to confuse the two.


GUMAccording to the firemen who were in the lobby of WTC1 the smashed windows and falling marble wall panels were as a result of the building moving (which is how they knew it might collapse), not a result of the fireball. Source?

POM-We kind of noticed that you haven't pointed out any errors in Mark's paper.
1. Johannemann video:-What happened was we were down in the basement and all of the sudden we heard a loud bang. And the elevator doors blew open and some guy was burnt up. So I dragged him out his skin was all hangin’ off. So I dragged him out and pulled him out of the parking lot (inaudible).
In Gravy’s transcript, it reads so I dragged him out and pulled him in to the parking lot.
This is an error in the account. We are unaware of what elevator or lift Kenny is near nor does he mention a fireball exiting the lift after the lift door exploded open.
[/B] This one error changes the entire location of
2. B1 level-Ivan Almendarez. In Gravy's source, Ivan does not mention where he is located in relation to the event.

3.B1-B2 levels-From Gravy's Paper:
"I felt the explosion and the elevator dropped," Arturo said at St. Vincents Hospital in Manhattan, where he's being treated for a broken leg. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20010916/ai_n14537022
Arturo Grffith, elevator operator, in freight car 50A with carpenter Marlene Cruz:
Arturo Griffith, a Panamanian, was in a lift at the time of the impact. The whole car shook and juddered as he heard an ominous noise from above. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20010918/ai_n14406873
Actual quote from source mentions no presence of Marlene Cruz in the elevator!
The only suggestion they were in the same elevator comes from this account from Mike Pecoraro:

One was a female Carpenter and the other an Elevator Operator. They were both badly burned and injured. Mike either saw two different people, or he is mistaken in their injuries. Niether Marlene or Arturo were badly burned.

4.In Gray's paper: 'I don't know who saved me. It was so black and smoky. I couldn't see nothin',' Arturo said. 'When they got me out, I told them there was someone else down there, a woman. They went back to get her. Seconds after they pulled her out, a ball of fire came down the shaft. They almost got killed. http://911digitalarchive.org/seiu/details/55
The source and link has nothing to do with this account.

5. The only reference to any fireball in Arturo's account, is unsourced. http://911digitalarchive.org/seiu/details/54 There is no source at this location for Arturo's account and no other source on Arturo mentions his experience with a fireball.

6. Outright unknown locations are placed in the basemnet section alone. Although technically not an error, it is misleading to the reader.

Those 5 errors above were from the basement level alone. I have yet to critique the rest of the paper.

POM-Tell us again why not a single demolition expert anywhere in the world swallows the fantasist snake oil about explosives in the Twin Towers. Most likely because they were TOLD jet fuel caused the massive damage in the basement. See if you read the account, most thought it was a bomb or reminded them of the 1993 attacks. Only when they were TOLD what happened is when they suggest jet fuel.

Also, which elevator shaft from the picture below do you think was responsible for the lobby destruction?
You do realise that's not an accurate reflection of the actual elevator system, right?
Feel free to provide a better one and then answer the question.

The Port Authority Police Department was in charge of security at the WTC, not some "guards". This story was never reported by any other media outlet and Daria Coard never made another statement about it. Who is she? Who was her employer?

PAPD Officer David Lim testified to the 9/11 Commission that he and bomb sniffing dog Sirius (killed in the attack) were on duty the morning of 9/11:

"On that fateful day, my job was checking vehicles that were entering the WTC Truck Dock for possible explosives. At about 0830hrs, I was in my office/kennel on the B-1 level #2WTC. About 15 minutes later, I felt the bldg shake. I left Sirius in his kennel & responded to the mezzanine of #1 WTC to assist people coming out of the "A" stairwell."
Is this the only location that a vehicle can enter the sub-levels?

As for Sakher 'Rocky' Hammad he had a visitor's pass, not a work authorization. No work order from any plumbing company or WTC tenant has every been produced, no one witnesses him in the WTC basement and I've yet to see a first person quote from HIM stating he was working at the WTC.
Source on visitor's pass? According to Federal Authorities, Rocky told them he was working on the sprinkler system. Do you expect a work order to survive the damage and destruction ?\
But Hicks said the Port Authority, which owned the building, did its own sprinkler work, and that any other work involving sprinklers would have been arranged by an individual tenant."We don't know (which one) because all our records were destroyed in the World Trade


If your contention is that he was wandering around there to possibly plant a bomb, there is absolutely no evidence for that.



So far here is what I've learned from JREF regulars please ignore this if this doesn't apply to you:
1. They will ingore and avoid facts that do not support the official story.
2. They will ingore assumptions made by NIST about the official story assuming that because they are experts, they must be right.
3. They support a paper that has numerous errors and misleading statements in it.
4. They believe that jet fuel dumped in the sky is in vapor form, not liquid.
5. They refuse to accept that kerosene, althought a primary ingriedient in jetfuel A ,does not have the same chemical properties as Jetfuel A.
6. They clutch upon the damage to humans in the subbasement all the while ignoring the damage to the environment in support of a fireball causing the damage witnessed.
7. The "leader" cries errors in my work, but refuses or cannot point out those errors.
8. And finally they do research for other readers without them asking and then break the requests of moderators by resorting to adhom attacks.
9. They rely on miracles to support the official theory that a fireball created the damage in the basement.

CHF, is this the shredding of my research that you expected? Because, frankly, I'm not impressed.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I have no doubt that the fuel (LIQUID) is white. The issue was jet vapor (GAS). No need to confuse the two.

Kerosene is a thin clear liquid formed from hydrocarbons kerosene
PHYSICAL PROPERTIES Boiling point: 150-300°C
Melting point: -20°C
Relative density (water = 1): 0.8
Solubility in water: none
Relative vapour density (air = 1): 4.5
Flash point: 37-65°C
Auto-ignition temperature: 220°C
Explosive limits, vol% in air: 0.7-5
http://www.inchem.org/documents/icsc/icsc/eics0663.htm
Physical Form: Liquid
Appearance: Clear, light yellow, light green or dyed red http://www.napavalleypetroleum.com/msds_napa_kerosene.htm

[beachnut]

I have no doubt that the fuel (LIQUID) is white. The issue was jet vapor (GAS). No need to confuse the two.

4. They believe that jet fuel dumped in the sky is in vapor form, not liquid.
5. They refuse to accept that kerosene, althought a primary ingriedient in jetfuel A ,does not have the same chemical properties as Jetfuel A.


Fuel is not white, it is clear, when it is in the air, dumped, it forms a vapor cloud that appears white, like a cloud, it can be ignited and it will burn under the correct conditions.

Jet fuel dumped in the sky can, and has formed a cloud like appearance. I have seen it many times. Looks like a big cloud of 10,000 pounds of jet fuel. You are too busy trying to make JREF look good to suck up some facts.

4. The fact is you dump fuel in the air at jet aircraft speed and it becomes a cloud of vapor. Unless you slow down and dumb it, it becomes vapor, not a liquid. But speed does count. Got speed? I suspect if you drop a bunch from 1000 to 700 feet it will vaporize too. Heat it up and it boils. Light it, it burns. The F-111 would dumb the fuel and light it! Those tricky fighter pilots.
5. Please explain all the difference in jet fuel from regular Kerosene and why it makes a difference on 9/11? Thank you. How soon will you have that info?

I still find all truthers to be lacking facts to support their misinformation on 9/11. Don't you?

[Gravy]

I already told Swing that I had mistakenly listed Arturo Griffith's account as digital archive #55, when it was #54. I told him that mistake was corrected on the first day the paper was online. He is once again behaving like a child.

If he doubts Arturo Griffith's account, he should contact him. We know that William Rodriguez won't.

Will you contact Arturo Griffith, Swing? Yes or no?

How about Marlene Cruz? If you think it was a different female carpenter in the #50 freight elevator, and that Marlene Cruz was in a different freight elevator with a different operator that came to a stop at the same level, will you contact her?

Yes or no?

Swing lists as an error of mine Ivan Almendarez's account. I have no idea why. I simply printed the account, which states that he was on the B1 level. I made no claim of his exact location. Once again, Swing is behaving like a child.

Swing says I have Johannemann saying "pulled him in to the parking lot."
My paper says "pulled him out in the parking lot." I've reviewed the video: Johannemann is speaking quickly and he apparently says "pulled him outta the parking lot." I've made that change. Johannemann, of course, is describing a man who was burned in the elevator. Where he was taken after that has no bearing on that fact, but I appreciate the error being pointed out, however small.

Swing mistakenly claims that the WTC was guarded by Port Authority Police alone. The security guards at booths, at turnstile checkpoints, and at various points in the towers were not Port Authority Police. The PAPD patrolled separately.

[Gravy]

Jet fuel dumped in the sky can, and has formed a cloud like appearance. I have seen it many times. Looks like a big cloud of 10,000 pounds of jet fuel. You are too busy trying to make JREF look good to suck up some facts.
So, you know all about Chemtrails, do you? :duck:

[CHF]

CHF, is this the shredding of my research that you expected? Because, frankly, I'm not impressed.

We all realize that you can't tell when you argument is shredded, so I'm not surprised.

If I wanted to impress you I'd simply post a link to the latest twoofer "experiment" involving a WTC tower made of toilet paper roles.

The only thing you've proven here is that your research skills continue to be as pathetic and cowardly as they were on SLC.

[beachnut]

So, you know all about Chemtrails, do you? :duck:
We would taxi and takeoff 10 to 15 seconds apart from each other. The air force did a study to make sure CO levels would not affect us. Even our old engines burned the fuel with out excessive CO levels. The planes today are 98 percent cleaner. I tried to explain this to the leading chemtrails book writer, but he was trying to sell books, not the truth. He assured me there was something to it, even after I explained they are mostly water vapor and CO2. But he is sticking to his nozzles and NWO motives. It does sell books to those with loose change.

In the end they are chemtrails, water and CO2; those are chemicals.

[Gravy]

In the end they are chemtrails, water and CO2; those are chemicals. You could make some money by putting up a website that charges a $20 subscription to learn the "The Truth About Chemtrails."

[chipmunk stew]

You could make some money by putting up a website that charges a $20 subscription to learn the "The Truth About Chemtrails."
And they couldn't charge you for fraud, either.

[grmcdorman]

FYI, this month's Smithsonian Air & Space magazine has an article (http://www.airspacemag.com/issues/2007/june-july/Flight_Lines.php) on chemtrails contrails. I posted a thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=83495) over in Science, etc. on it.

[tsig]

I have no doubt that the fuel (LIQUID) is white. The issue was jet vapor (GAS). No need to confuse the two.


Source?


1.
In Gravy’s transcript, it reads so I dragged him out and pulled him in to the parking lot.
This is an error in the account. We are unaware of what elevator or lift Kenny is near nor does he mention a fireball exiting the lift after the lift door exploded open.
[/B] This one error changes the entire location of
2. B1 level-Ivan Almendarez. In Gravy's source, Ivan does not mention where he is located in relation to the event.

3.B1-B2 levels-From Gravy's Paper:
"I felt the explosion and the elevator dropped," Arturo said at St. Vincents Hospital in Manhattan, where he's being treated for a broken leg. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20010916/ai_n14537022
Arturo Grffith, elevator operator, in freight car 50A with carpenter Marlene Cruz:
Arturo Griffith, a Panamanian, was in a lift at the time of the impact. The whole car shook and juddered as he heard an ominous noise from above. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20010918/ai_n14406873
Actual quote from source mentions no presence of Marlene Cruz in the elevator!
The only suggestion they were in the same elevator comes from this account from Mike Pecoraro:
Mike either saw two different people, or he is mistaken in their injuries. Niether Marlene or Arturo were badly burned.

4.In Gray's paper: 'I don't know who saved me. It was so black and smoky. I couldn't see nothin',' Arturo said. 'When they got me out, I told them there was someone else down there, a woman. They went back to get her. Seconds after they pulled her out, a ball of fire came down the shaft. They almost got killed. http://911digitalarchive.org/seiu/details/55
The source and link has nothing to do with this account.

5. The only reference to any fireball in Arturo's account, is unsourced. http://911digitalarchive.org/seiu/details/54 There is no source at this location for Arturo's account and no other source on Arturo mentions his experience with a fireball.

6. Outright unknown locations are placed in the basemnet section alone. Although technically not an error, it is misleading to the reader.

Those 5 errors above were from the basement level alone. I have yet to critique the rest of the paper.

Most likely because they were TOLD jet fuel caused the massive damage in the basement. See if you read the account, most thought it was a bomb or reminded them of the 1993 attacks. Only when they were TOLD what happened is when they suggest jet fuel.
Feel free to provide a better one and then answer the question.

The Port Authority Police Department was in charge of security at the WTC, not some "guards". This story was never reported by any other media outlet and Daria Coard never made another statement about it. Who is she? Who was her employer?

PAPD Officer David Lim testified to the 9/11 Commission that he and bomb sniffing dog Sirius (killed in the attack) were on duty the morning of 9/11:

"On that fateful day, my job was checking vehicles that were entering the WTC Truck Dock for possible explosives. At about 0830hrs, I was in my office/kennel on the B-1 level #2WTC. About 15 minutes later, I felt the bldg shake. I left Sirius in his kennel & responded to the mezzanine of #1 WTC to assist people coming out of the "A" stairwell."
Is this the only location that a vehicle can enter the sub-levels?

As for Sakher 'Rocky' Hammad he had a visitor's pass, not a work authorization. No work order from any plumbing company or WTC tenant has every been produced, no one witnesses him in the WTC basement and I've yet to see a first person quote from HIM stating he was working at the WTC.
Source on visitor's pass? According to Federal Authorities, Rocky told them he was working on the sprinkler system. Do you expect a work order to survive the damage and destruction ?\



If your contention is that he was wandering around there to possibly plant a bomb, there is absolutely no evidence for that.



So far here is what I've learned from JREF regulars please ignore this if this doesn't apply to you:
1. They will ingore and avoid facts that do not support the official story.
2. They will ingore assumptions made by NIST about the official story assuming that because they are experts, they must be right.
3. They support a paper that has numerous errors and misleading statements in it.
4. They believe that jet fuel dumped in the sky is in vapor form, not liquid.
5. They refuse to accept that kerosene, althought a primary ingriedient in jetfuel A ,does not have the same chemical properties as Jetfuel A.
6. They clutch upon the damage to humans in the subbasement all the while ignoring the damage to the environment in support of a fireball causing the damage witnessed.
7. The "leader" cries errors in my work, but refuses or cannot point out those errors.
8. And finally they do research for other readers without them asking and then break the requests of moderators by resorting to adhom attacks.
9. They rely on miracles to support the official theory that a fireball created the damage in the basement.

CHF, is this the shredding of my research that you expected? Because, frankly, I'm not impressed.

I don't think you have ever seen kerosene.

[Gravy]

I don't think you have ever seen kerosene.He said, "You've seen the impact videos. Where's the white smoke?" (paraphrasing)

So I showed him this photo. The part nearest the camera is where flight 175 hit:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/8790465c2ad907b1f.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6009)


And he just ignores it. He does not appear to be capable of understanding, and he seems to think that rational people are going to miraculously come around to believing his version of reality. I wish I knew what makes people behave this way, in public no less.

[Alt+F4]

[quote=Swing Dangler;2645473]According to Federal Authorities, Rocky told them he was working on the sprinkler system. Do you expect a work order to survive the damage and destruction ?[\quote]

I have yet to read a first person quote from Rocky HIMSELF saying he was working on the sprinkler system. By the way, Rocky is not a licensed plumber in NYC and neither is "Magic Heating and Plumbing".

http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/LicenseTypeServlet?vlfirst=Y

As for the work order, I meant the work order at the plumber's office.

So to fit Hammad into your crazy 9/11 plot we would have to believe:

1. Hammad, who was not a licensed plumber, conned professional police officers to gain access to the basement of the WTC, or perhaps someone "in on it" in the PAPD let him in.

2. For several days he plants bombs in the basement. No one notices him, the bombs or the fact he wasn't doing any plumbing.

3. Instead of laying low after 9/11, he and four buddies travel to Memphis to get fraudlent Tennessee driver's licenses from DMV employee Kathleen Smith.

4. He keeps the incriminating WTC pass in his wallet for 5 months, until his arrest in February 2002 on the driver's license charge.

5. A few days later Kathleen Smith is murdered.

[Civilized Worm]

Oh wow Swing Dangler finally built up the courage to bring his loony ideas to JREF!

Hey Swing, when do you plan on going over to the science forum and showing them how you can disprove evolution with platypuses and donkeys? I'm sure they'd appreciate your wisdom.

[Mobyseven]

Great, pass him off to Science...

[gumboot]

Just to be pedantic, although people use the word "gas" and "vapour" interchangeably, they do not actually mean the same thing.

-Gumboot

[Swing Dangler]

[quote=Swing Dangler;2645473]According to Federal Authorities, Rocky told them he was working on the sprinkler system. Do you expect a work order to survive the damage and destruction ?[\quote]
I have yet to read a first person quote from Rocky HIMSELF saying he was working on the sprinkler system. By the way, Rocky is not a licensed plumber in NYC and neither is "Magic Heating and Plumbing".
http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/LicenseTypeServlet?vlfirst=Y
As for the work order, I meant the work order at the plumber's office.
So to fit Hammad into your crazy 9/11 plot we would have to believe:
1. Hammad, who was not a licensed plumber, conned professional police officers to gain access to the basement of the WTC, or perhaps someone "in on it" in the PAPD let him in.
2. For several days he plants bombs in the basement. No one notices him, the bombs or the fact he wasn't doing any plumbing.
3. Instead of laying low after 9/11, he and four buddies travel to Memphis to get fraudlent Tennessee driver's licenses from DMV employee Kathleen Smith.
4. He keeps the incriminating WTC pass in his wallet for 5 months, until his arrest in February 2002 on the driver's license charge.
5. A few days later Kathleen Smith is murdered.

You only accept first person statements from criminals as fact? Ok. Your prerogative I suppose. Why you would accept a criminals statement over the AP reporter's statements, court documents, and Federal Agents is beyond me.

Source 1-AP (http://www.sptimes.com/2002/02/17/Worldandnation/Fiery_death_raises_fe.shtml)
First, I'm sorry you do not accept multiple press reporter's statements, Federal Agent's statements, and court documents as more credible than a first person statement from a criminal. In other words, if Rocky isn't quoted directly in a press report, then it isn't true?

1. Where do you arrive at the suggestion that he "conned" police? A photocopy of the pass he had looked authentic to authorities. It could have been manufactured or provided to him by an insider. He was getting fake driver licenses from an American, the hijackers got fake ID's here in America so that isn't a stretch.
Denko Mechanical has also been mentioned as a place of employment along with Magic Plumbing, for Rocky. Denko is a bit bizarre especially in its relationship to WTC, which is no relationship. We are still left to wonder who Rocky was working for as the records were destroyed.

2. According to the AP report, Rocky and his cousin were working on sprinklers in the tower. You state they planted bombs, but at this point the method of delivery and type of device is debatable.

3. Why would you "lay low" in the city you just helped to attack? That would be the best time to get out of dodge as all attention is focused on the aftermath of the attacks. Here is a catch though, the Feds got a "tip" that they were leaving for Memphis that day, either Sept. 11th or Feb. 5th. depending on what day the author is referring to. Interesting though that he bolts town the same day of the attacks especially when you had been working there a few days before. Also in the above article, the Fed's were tipped off that they were heading to Memphis.

4. Sorry, I can't speak to his wallet cleaning habits or lack thereof. Hell, hijackers carried their passports and letters onto the planes to be found later on the street.

5. Smith is murdered after providing "half a dozen cousins" with ID's and only until those busted in Tenn. are caught. Many of the hijackers obtained fake id's in the country. Seems rather odd to kill someone for testifying against you in a fake ID trial. Unless of course there she knew something more about these guys and they didn't want the information out.

6. Rocky's defense lawyer tries to claim the prosecution is trying to make a 9/11 connection! Now either the defense is lying about this, or there is a connection to be made. The connection of course falls right in line with this proposed theory.

Finally, Rocky, his friends and his cousin and/or cousins, could have been a separate Al-Q. cell that was tasked with infiltrating and delivering the explosive device or devices in the basement levels and perhaps elsewhere. The risk factor is not even relevant as the terrorists are willing to give their lives in the case. He has the access to the sub levels that even photocopy of the ID looks official to the authorities. He has at least one 'relative' along with him, who knows how many other helpers he had. So far the theory to this point is plausible and matches the explosive device in the basement.

Gravy- Oh where do I start. Lets start with the smoke that you say is white, but is actually various shades of gray. The background of this reply box that I'm typing in is white.
1. Oh and did you fail to include the contents of the buildings like walls, floors, sheet rock, etc in that "white" smoke cloud of yours that is supposedly jetfuelA vapor?
2. Also your whole example is a lesson in argument fallacies, in this case a false analogy. Do I need to explain why?
You expertly ignored the other point that kerosene and jetfuelA do not have the same chemical composition, as JetfuelA has additives placed into it to modify its chemical properties.
If he doubts Arturo Griffith's account, he should contact him. We know that William Rodriguez won't.
I don't doubt Arturo's account. I doubt your account of Arturo.

Will you contact Arturo Griffith, Swing? Yes or no?
How about Marlene Cruz? If you think it was a different female carpenter in the #50 freight elevator, and that Marlene Cruz was in a different freight elevator with a different operator that came to a stop at the same level, will you contact her?
Actually the burden of proof is upon your shoulders as you seem to be the only source that places the two together in the elevator. I have no need to contact Arturo or Marlene.

3. So will you contact them to confirm as fact what you state is fact in your paper? Will you Gravy?


The Port Authority Police Department was in charge of security at the WTC, not some "guards".

Swing mistakenly claims that the WTC was guarded by Port Authority Police alone. The security guards at booths, at turnstile checkpoints, and at various points in the towers were not Port Authority Police. The PAPD patrolled separately.
Perhaps you should read all of the comments. I did not make this statement, ALT-F4 made this statement on 29th May 2007 05:15 PM. I didn't place it in the quote box as I should have, but you can read a few comments below where he makes this inaccurate statement. Thank you for correcting him, or maybe he should thank you for correcting him.

4. Gravy, will you be explaining to ALT-F4 why he is wrong?

Gravy, One other issue with your paper at this point:
5. Why do you feel the need to insert your own interpretation of the facts into the eyewitness accounts, especially Mike P.'s account?

6. Why can't you let the reader read the account and decide for themselves?

7. Are interpretations needed to support the fireball?

8. That is manipulative and misleading don't you think?

CHF-We all realize that you can't tell when you argument is shredded, so I'm not surprised.ROFLMAOAU! Most of the folks on here didn't even read my lengthy post. And so far, I've learned that kerosene vapor is white in smoke machines and takes a set criteria of scientific data to produce, however, the process hasn't been described as to how that took place in the basement of WTC: North Tower.
I've also learned from JREF'ers that kerosene and jetfuelA are the same thing to prove a strawman white smoke issue, yet they have different chemical properties.


1. Is that your definition of shredding, CHF?

2. Is that what it is like here, tell me, don't show me?

I don't think you have ever seen kerosene. Well growing up as a kid, I filled many a kerosene heaters.
Yes, kerosene is clear as well as jetfuel A unless dyed. That was in reference to fuel dumping by jets.
I should have stated jetfuel A when dumped at elevation in liquid form is white.

According to the firemen who were in the lobby of WTC1 the smashed windows and falling marble wall panels were as a result of the building moving (which is how they knew it might collapse), not a result of the fireball.-Gumboot
Source please for the second time?

Also, will anybody be using the graphic that I posted to point to the elevator shaft that caused the damage in the lobby? Also, Gumbot, it is not a poor representation for this case, because it shows the shafts that reached the lobby area versus the impact zone. How many shafts did you count?;)

[Alt+F4]

Gravy, will you be explaining to ALT-F4 why he is wrong?

Swing's post is long and it's almost my bedtime, but I will address it tomorrow. In the meantime:
1. It's Alt+F4
2. I'm a woman

Yeah, I'm into numbered lists too.

[Gravy]

Swing can't point out a single thing that's wrong with the official story, doesn't believe the eyewitnesses but won't contact them, and insists that the burden of proof for his fantasies is on us.

There, there, Swing.
There, there.

[bje]

Also, will anybody be using the graphic that I posted to point to the elevator shaft that caused the damage in the lobby?[/B] Also, Gumbot, it is not a poor representation for this case, because it shows the shafts that reached the lobby area versus the impact zone. How many shafts did you count?;)


Uh...Swing, wake up, you are not paying attention.

You are on record as claiming to know how the entire plot was carried out.

In front of many of us, live, on the chat forum of the Rob Bishop Show when your side was spanked.

We're still waiting, Swing. Now, just get on with it and tell us exactly how the entire plot was successfully planned and carried out just as you said you could.

Include in your account the exact plan for placement of explosives such that elevator doors were blown off in the lobby (but not in the basement where William Rodriguez was), how many people it took to disperse the smell of kerosene and how they did it such that survivors believed it was a fuel explosion; the contingency plan if the actual fuel from the planes did not burn on impact.... you know, ALL the evidence you claim to have, Swing.

Just what is your problem in not keeping your promise, Swing??? Where is ALL this evidence you claim to have that proves intentional explosive demolition?

Why is it that none of you clatterfarts can ever come up with any evidence, Swing?

[CHF]

1. Is that your definition of shredding, CHF?

No it's just pathetic at this point.

You make claims that the people who were there (other than Willy) don't believe. You refuse to contact the people in question. You think people walking out of the WTC with burns are bomb victims.

You're hopeless.

[CHF]

We're still waiting, Swing. Now, just get on with it and tell us exactly how the entire plot was successfully planned and carried out just as you said you could.

Let's start with the simple part.

Swing, was 9/11 carried out by Islamic terrorists or the US government?

Can you at least answer that?

[Gravy]

Clatterfarts is a helluva word.

[gumboot]

Also, will anybody be using the graphic that I posted to point to the elevator shaft that caused the damage in the lobby?[/B] Also, Gumbot, it is not a poor representation for this case, because it shows the shafts that reached the lobby area versus the impact zone. How many shafts did you count?;)



It's Gumboot.

And no, it is not a good representation at all. The WTC elevator shafts ran the entire length of the building. Elevators were stacked up inside them.

-Gumboot

[hard lines]

It's Gumboot.

And no, it is not a good representation at all. The WTC elevator shafts ran the entire length of the building. Elevators were stacked up inside them.

-Gumboot

False. Name one elevator shaft, besides 6,7, and 50 which had continuity from the lower levels to above the 78th floor sky lobby.

Here is a quote of interest from Gravy's paper.

According to the accounts I have heard, Debbie was in the lobby waiting for an elevator when AA Flight 11 hit on 93. The jet fuel from the plane poured down the elevator shafts. Owing to the way the elevators are laid out, I don't understand how the fuel got into the elevator that she was waiting for. There are / (were) "Sky Lobbies" on 44 and on 78. So to go above those floors, you took an express elevator to the appropriate sky lobby and then transferred to a local elevator. The elevator machinery was located on the floors above the sky lobbies; only a very few shafts continued all the way up. Anyway, apparently she was in the lobby, the elevator shaftway doors opened and a fireball hit her with full force. She survived and was taken to a hospital with 90% burns. After lingering for about 50 days she died.
http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/WTC/AlMasetti.html

[Rolfe]

You know, when I read so much emphasis being put into every nuance of what startled and frightened people suddenly caught up in this sort of situation say, I remember what happened after the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes in London on 22nd July 2005.

Much coverage was given to an alleged eyewitness account of the victim fleeing from pursuing police officers, looking like "a hunted fox", then tripping up just as he entered the train carriage, at which point the pursuing cops sort of fell on him in a heap, and he was shot several times.

This all went remarkably quiet when a full enquiry was held into what actually happened. Which was that the victim boarded the train in the normal manner, apparently unaware that anyone was behind him, looked around, chose a seat, sat down and opened his newspaper. At which point a firearms team entered the train, the policeman who had been tailing him covertly pointed out to that team who the suspect was, and one of the team went up to him, forced him back into his seat (he'd begun to get to his feet as he realised somehing was going on) and shot him seven times in the back of the head.

Now I've left out some of the other erroneous details such as the assertion that the victim jumped over the ticket barrier (he didn't, he used his season ticket in the usual way) or the assertion that he was dressed in improbably heavy clothing for such a warm day (he wasn't, he had on only jeans, a t-shirt and a light denim jacket which wasn't even fastened). I've ignored these because it's possible - indeed likely - that the reports were prompted by someone seeing someone else (probably a policeman with body armour on) jump the ticket barrier, so they're just mistaken, not completely wrong.

However, the running man fleeing from running police officers, looking like a hunted fox, and tripping as he entered the carriage, simply didn't happen at all. And yet an "eyewitness" was interviewed on TV very shortly after the event, describing exactly that.

It just puts the reliability of these accounts into some sort of perspective. You need to do what the enquiry did, and look at all the evidence and piece together all the accounts before you can begin to make out what actually happened. Just homing in on one person's anomalous account is extremely foolhardy.

Rolfe.

[Swing Dangler]

Swing can't point out a single thing that's wrong with the official story, doesn't believe the eyewitnesses but won't contact them, and insists that the burden of proof for his fantasies is on us.
There, there, Swing.
There, there.

Gravy, great job again on showing us how to dodge something.

1. I can't point out a single thing wrong with the official story, eh? Funny that this thread moved from explosives in the basement to now the official story which encompasses many things or the plot as a whole. Does that mean for you that an explosive device in the basement is a plausible attack scenario?

2. As I already stated, the burden of proof for Arturo's account is on your shoulders. Your stating he was in an elevator with Marlene. Where are your facts?

Lets go with all encompassing official story strawman though, Gravy, since you avoid the other issues.

3. Why do you suppose when calculating fuel remaining in the towers that the only air available for combustion was in the floors only? Or IYHO, is that not an error? If it is not an error, why isn't it?

4. Any chance we will see you explain how the same process that smoke machines create white kerosene vapor translates over to the sub-basement white smoke? Remember that burden of proof?;)

5. Oh and did you fail to include the contents of the buildings like walls, floors, sheet rock, etc in that "white" smoke cloud of yours that is supposedly jetfuelA vapor?

6. Also your whole white smoke picture is is a lesson in argument fallacies, in this case a false analogy. Do I need to explain why?

7. Will you be explaining to Alt+F4's errors in regards to her statements about the security of the complex?

CHF, why do you think I would use the initial press reports and earliest comments from the victims? Because later many were TOLD what had happened and over time, group think begins to set in. Immediately after the event or any event for that matter is when the purest discussion of what transpired tales place. Case in point is the interview that CIT did with the officer who forgot where his cruiser was in relation to the gas pumps.
Swing, was 9/11 carried out by Islamic terrorists or the US government?Can you at least answer that?

So CHF and BJE, since you are ready to move on, do accept that it is plausible that terrorists used a device in the sublevels? And if not, what is the point in moving on?

1. In regards to the explosive device in the sub-level of WTC: North Tower, I think Islamic fundamentalists were responsible for the delivery and detonation of the device or devices.

2. In regards to 9/11 as a whole, I think there were a few individuals within the U.S. government's intelligence apparatus that assisted in the attacks.
But then that is strictly speculation at this point, isn't it?


False. Name one elevator shaft, besides 6,7, and 50 which had continuity from the lower levels to above the 78th floor sky lobby.
Hard line, some people just don't get it do they?

[CHF]

CHF, why do you think I would use the initial press reports and earliest comments from the victims? Because later many were TOLD what had happened and over time, group think begins to set in.

Yet you refuse to contact any of these people, preferring instead to draw your own conclusions over listening to them. That's rather poor "truthseeking."

In regards to the explosive device in the sub-level of WTC: North Tower, I think Islamic fundamentalists were responsible for the delivery and detonation of the device or devices.

In regards to 9/11 as a whole, I think there were a few individuals within the U.S. government's intelligence apparatus that assisted in the attacks. But then that is strictly speculation at this point, isn't it?


Well according to another poster, you claimed on a chat board to have figured out a narrative of the plot. I’d love to hear it.

All I can currently do is piece together a story based on your statements to date.

So...you now take the positions that Islamic jihadists planted a bomb in the basement – something you refused to state before. Yet you’ve also stated repeatedly on SLC that the WTC towers were controlled demolitions (or “explosions of buildings” as you once put it).

So did those same jihadists rig up the towers? Did they also take down WTC7? Or did “a few individuals” in the CIA leave the planes and basement to Al Qaeda while doing the rest themselves?

[Civilized Worm]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_16445466026aad260d.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6100)

[hard lines]

Hard line, some people just don't get it do they?

Here's the thing swing, i am willing to be proven wrong in any points i have raised here, and i will do so in such case. I don't believe i have made one false claim.

Gravy has put put me on ignore despite raising evidence disputing his suggestion that there was a refrigeration plant within the footprint of WTC 1. I will retract my claim if someone can prove otherwise.

I will put my neck on the cutting block here, and claim that Gravy's paper is deceiving in that the average reader will conclude that there are multiple shafts which extend to the lower levels above 78th floor skylobby. If Gravy admits that 6, 7, and 50 were the only shafts that had continuity above the 78th floor skylobby to the basement levels, i will retract that claim.

If not, it easy to show otherwise.

There are certainly some anomalies within the accounts of witnesses, for which i have heard no satisfying explanation from this forum.

As a start,

1. Can anyone show that McCabe was within the WTC 1 footprint?

2. Can anyone show that there was a possible route for jet fuel through elevator shafts other than shaft 6, 7, or 50? Name one shaft.

[Gravy]

WTC Elevators and Elevator Shaft Continuity (http://911stories.googlepages.com/wtcelevatorshafts)

Edwrd McCabe (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2638339&postcount=220)

What is this obsession the know-nothings have with wasting peoples' time?

[hard lines]

WTC Elevators and Elevator Shaft Continuity (http://911stories.googlepages.com/wtcelevatorshafts)

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2638339&postcount=220



Gravy, thanks for removing the ignore.

Your paper is not specific enough, and as it should be a simple fact, could you please name one elevator car, beside 6, 7, and 50 which extended from the basement levels to above the 78th floor skylobby. Any will do.

Please show the stairs on the WTC 1 floorplans that McCabe was referring to when he went between the office area and the refrigeration plant.
Also please show on the floorplans, where McCabe walked office workers across the refrigeration plant to the PATH platform.

ETA: If the elevator shafts were stacked as you believe that description means, just name a lower car, that extended up into another shaft.

[Gravy]

WTC Elevators and Elevator Shaft Continuity (http://911stories.googlepages.com/wtcelevatorshafts)

Edward McCabe (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2638339&postcount=220)

[hard lines]

WTC Elevators and Elevator Shaft Continuity (http://911stories.googlepages.com/wtcelevatorshafts)

Edward McCabe (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2638339&postcount=220)

Cheers!

[volatile]

Gravy, thanks for removing the ignore.

Your paper is not specific enough, and as it should be a simple fact, could you please name one elevator car, beside 6, 7, and 50 which extended from the basement levels to above the 78th floor skylobby. Any will do.

Read the link he just gave you! It's all there, in pretty colours.

!!!

[hard lines]

Read the link he just gave you! It's all there, in pretty colours.

!!!

Volatile, this should be easy. Just name one number elevator, and i will forever disappear.

[Gravy]

Hard line seems to be claiming that we claim that some other elevators ran the length of the buildings. I'd like him to show where anyone has said that, and I'd like him to look up the definition of "straw man argument."

What a pathetic display.

[kookbreaker]

Volatile, this should be easy. Just name one number elevator, and i will forever disappear.

You ask for something you know does not exist and you have been shown is not required. What further proof of your intellectual dishonesty do we need?

Good day.

[volatile]

Volatile, this should be easy. Just name one number elevator, and i will forever disappear.

Eh? Your question makes no sense, as there were multiple cars in each shaft, stacked on top of each other. The link Gravy provided explains that and then illustrates in with coloured diagrams showing the continuity of the shafts! It's all there, in English, in layman's terms, and in pretty pictures. What more do you want?

[hard lines]

Hard line seems to be claiming that we claim that some other elevators ran the length of the buildings. I'd like him to show where anyone has said that, and I'd like him to look up the definition of "straw man argument."

What a pathetic display.

Gravy, i know that gumboot does not speak for yourself, but here is his claim,

The WTC elevator shafts ran the entire length of the building. Elevators were stacked up inside them.

Volatile also appears to be misled by your paper.

I mentioned that i would retract my claim that your paper is deceiving if you would admit that car 6, 7, and 50 were the only shafts to extend from the basement levels to above the 78th skylobby floor.

Do you now admit that? If so i retract my claim that your paper is deceiving.

[volatile]

Volatile also appears to be misled by your paper.

How'd you figure that one, brainiac?

Furthermore, why is this even problematic for you? What are you getting at?!

[hard lines]

I am glad that we have established that the only elevator shafts which had continuity from the basement levels to above the 78th floor skylobby were the shafts that contained cars 6, 7, and 50.

I hope that clears all confusion.

That is all for now.

[Gravy]

Show me my deceptive claims. Right now.

(http://911stories.googlepages.com/wtcelevatorshafts)WTC Elevators and Elevator Shaft Continuity (http://911stories.googlepages.com/wtcelevatorshafts)


Elevator plans for both towers were identical, although their service cores were oriented differently. The north tower office floors had 60 feet of open floor space on its north and south sides and 35 feet of open floor space on its east and west sides. The south tower's 60-foot open floors were on its east and west sides.
Elevators were the primary mode of routine ingress and egress from the towers for tens of thousands of people daily. In order to minimize the total floor space needed for elevators, each tower was divided vertically into three zones by skylobbies, which served to distribute passengers among express and local elevators. In this way, the local elevators within a zone were placed on top of one another within a common shaft. Local elevators serving the lower portion of a zone were terminated to return to the space occupied by those shafts to leasable tenant space. People transferred from express elevators to local elevators at the skylobbies which were located on the 44th and 78th floors in both towers. Each tower had 99 passenger and 7 freight elevators, all located within the core of the building. http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-1.pdf (http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-1.pdf%20)(PDF pg.39)

There were 99 passenger elevators in each tower, arranged in three vertical zones to move occupants in stages to skylobbies on the 44th and 78th floors. These were arranged as express (generally larger cars that moved at higher speeds) and local elevators in an innovative system first introduced in WTC 1 and WTC 2. There were 8 express elevators from the concourse to the 44th floor and 10 express elevators from the concourse to the 78th floor as well as 24 local elevators per zone, which served groups of floors in those zones. There were seven freight elevators, only one of which served all floors. All elevators had been upgraded to incorporate firefighter emergency operation per American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) A17.1 and Local Law 5 (1973).http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-1.pdf (http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-1.pdf) (PDF pg. 50)

There were two express elevators (#6 and #7) to Windows on the World (and related conference rooms and banquet facilities) in WTC 1 and two to the observation deck in WTC 2. There were five local elevators in each building: three that brought people from the subterranean levels to the lobby, one that ran between floors 106 and 110, and one that ran between floors 43 and 44, serving the cafeteria from the skylobby. All elevators had been upgraded to incorporate firefighter emergency operation requirements.

In addition to the passenger elevators, there were seven freight elevators in each tower; most served a particular zone, while Car 50 served every floor.
* Car #5: B1-5, 6, 9-40, 44
* Car #6: B1-5, 44, 75, 77-107 http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-7.pdf (PDF pg. 72)

For an elevator’s cables to be cut and result in dropping the car to the bottom of the shaft, the cables would need to have been in the aircraft impact debris path, floors 93 through 98 in WTC 1 or floors 78 through 83 in WTC 2. Inspection of the elevator riser diagram and architectural floor plans for WTC 1 shows that the following elevators met these criteria: cars 81 through 86 (Bank B) and 87 through 92 (Bank C), local cars in Zone III; car 50, the freight elevator, and car 6, the Zone III shuttle. … Cars 6 and 50 could have fallen all the way to the pit in the sub-basement level, and car 50 in WTC 1 was reported to have done so. http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-7.pdf(PDF pg. 160)
FDNY Battalion 11 Chief Richard Picciotto, who took an elevator from the WTC 1 lobby to floor 16: “Some of the shafts pulled double duty, carrying low-floor elevators, middle-floor elevators, and high-floor elevators, and my only fear was that one of the high-floor elevators would break loose and come tumbling down on us as we made our way to sixteen.” Richard Picciotto & Daniel Paisner. Last Man Down. New York: Berkeley Books, 2002.
The graphics below illustrate elevator shaft continuity on and below the aircraft impact zones. The colored areas represent shafts, not necessarily individual elevator cars. The blue area in the floor plans below indicates the #50 freight elevator shaft, which is continuous from the impact zones to the lowest basement level, B6. In the north tower, with elevator operator Arturo Griffith and carpenter Marlene Cruz aboard, the #50 elevator was hit by a blast, dropped several floors, and stopped below the B1 landing. A large fireball came through the shaft just after Griffith and Cruz were pulled from smoky elevator.

The yellow area indicates the large #6 and #7 elevators, which led to Windows on the World in the north tower (WTC 1) and to the observation deck in the south tower (WTC 2). This shaft is continuous from the impact zones to sublevel B4, where several people within the core area were injured by the jet fuel blast, and where building engineer Edward McCabe said the blast came "about 30 seconds" after he felt the building shift.

Several of the large express passenger elevators, which service the sky lobbies, plunged to the main lobby level. At least one of those falling elevators was accompanied by a huge fireball that burst into the lobby and concourse levels. Only four people are known to have survived in the south tower express elevators.

William Rodriguez was on the B1 level of the north tower when flight 11 hit.
Felipe David was burned while standing in front of a freight elevator shaft on the B1 or B2 level.


Several people were injured within the core on the north tower B4 level, after the impact. Several elevator pits ended at that level. See Ed McCabe's account on the north tower basement witness page (http://911stories.googlepages.com/insidethenorthtower%3Awitnessaccounts%2Clobb).

An elevator engineer in the south tower reports:
"As we got into the sky lobby area, there were shuttle cars that had come up from the first floor from the lobby. I started to shut those down at that 44th floor. People in the local elevators coming down from the floors above in the second zone, now there were more people in fact coming down out of those elevators than there were going up because usually it’s a very busy time of the morning when people are coming up into the building. A lot of people were coming down out of those local cars, some of them were trying to get into the shuttle cars. I shut them down.

The shuttle cars were those cars that would run from a lobby up to a zone. They had three zones in the building. They had the first zone which ran from one to 42, then the second zone started from 44 up to 76, and the third zone started from 78 up to 110."

As I turned around to go back toward the core of the building in the lobby, the second plane hit, and that shook the building.

We heard the explosion and within a matter of seconds after that impact, I heard – and as well as everybody else heard – this noise, this increasing sound of wind. And it was getting louder and louder. It was like a bomb, not quite the sound of a bomb coming down from a bomber. It was a sound of wind increasing, a whistling sound, increasing in sound.

I’m looking from the lobby up to a mezzanine area or the second floor where they lined up all the people to go up to the rooftop, and I’m looking up expecting something, building parts to be coming down, because I wasn’t quite sure what that noise was.

But I found out later, when the plane came through the building, it cut the hoist ropes, the governor ropes, of (the) 6 and 7 cars, which was the observation cars.

What we heard was 6 and 7 car free-falling from the 107th floor and they impacted the basement at B-2 Level. And that’s the explosion that filled the lobby within a matter of two or three seconds, engulfed the lobby in dust, smoke.

And apparently from what I talked to with other mechanics, they saw the doors, the hatch doors blow off in the lobby level of 6 and 7 car.

There were a couple of people I knew that worked for the building. You did a story on Carmen Griffen (Arturo's wife), one of the elevator operators, I know her. So this was, she was lucky to get out, very lucky.

And some of the operators then, people in 50 car – 50 car was the car that ran the entire length of the building when the planes came through. In B Tower, they cut the hoist ropes on 50 car A and B – there were two cars in each tower. Basically the buildings were very similar in design, and as far as their elevator structure, it was very similar. So you had matching elevators in each tower. And 50 car, in each tower, ran all floors from B6 up to 109. So that was, again, one of the cars, like 6 and 7 car in A Tower, they ran up to the Windows of the World. I can’t imagine what it must’ve been like when the planes came through.

And the noise, the wind noise we heard was, you have to picture that there are two cars or cabs in a hoist length. And a hoist weighs only so big, and it’s encapsulated by walls, so as these two cars came, fell together, the air pressure underneath would cause that sound that we heard."http://archive.recordonline.com/adayinseptember/jones.htm (http://archive.recordonline.com/adayinseptember/jones.htm)

Carmen and Arturo Griffith again:They were both operating elevators in the north tower on Sept. 11. Arturo was running 50A, the big freight car going from the six-level basement to the 108th floor. When American Airlines Flight 11 struck at 8:46 a.m., Arturo and a co-worker were heading from the second-level basement to the 49th floor.

Like his wife, who had just closed the doors on a passenger elevator leaving the 78th floor, Arturo heard a sudden whistling sound and the impact. Cables were severed and Arturo's car plunged into free fall.

"The only thing I remember saying was 'Oh, God, Oh, God, I'm going to die,' " he says, recalling how he tried to protect his head as the car plummeted.

The emergency brakes caught after 15 or 16 floors. The imploding elevator door crushed Arturo's right knee and broke the tibia below it. His passenger escaped injury. (The 50 car came to rest just below the B1 landing.)


…All that morning, Carmen had been carrying hundreds of passengers from the 78th-floor sky lobby to the bond-trading offices of Cantor Fitzgerald on the 101st to 105th floors and the Windows on the World restaurant above that.

"They were so packed (in the elevators) — like sardines," she says.

A full elevator had just left the 78th floor, and Carmen was about to carry up six or seven stragglers. The plane struck as the doors of her elevator closed. They could hear debris smash into the top of the car; then the elevator cracked open, and flames poured in. Carmen jammed her fingers between the closed doors, pulled them partly open and held them as passengers clambered over and under her 5-foot-6 frame to escape.

Before finally throwing herself out onto the lobby floor, she glanced back to be sure the elevator was empty. That was when fire scorched her face with second- and third-degree burns, and literally welded her hooped right earring to her neck. Her hands were badly burned.

Carmen was helped down the 78 floors to an ambulance just as her husband was carried out of the basement on a piece of plywood and a hand truck, each certain — after seeing the burning buildings from the street outside — that the other was dead. http://www.usatoday.com/life/sept11/2002-09-10-surivivor-griffiths_x.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/life/sept11/2002-09-10-surivivor-griffiths_x.htm) (http://www.usatoday.com/life/sept11/2002-09-10-surivivor-griffiths_x.htm)

[kookbreaker]

I am glad that we have established that the only elevator shafts which had continuity from the basement levels to above the 78th floor skylobby were the shafts that contained cars 6, 7, and 50.

I hope that clears all confusion.

That is all for now.

The only confusion was from wondering for what reason you brought this issue up, and why you think it is so important. Its relevance to the issue is minimal, and seems to be solely a stroking exercise for you.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

<snip>
I will put my neck on the cutting block here, and claim that Gravy's paper is deceiving in that the average reader will conclude that there are multiple shafts which extend to the lower levels above 78th floor skylobby. If Gravy admits that 6, 7, and 50 were the only shafts that had continuity above the 78th floor skylobby to the basement levels, i will retract that claim.

<snip>
2. Can anyone show that there was a possible route for jet fuel through elevator shafts other than shaft 6, 7, or 50? Name one shaft.
"The other primary obstacle to be overcome in the skyscraper is the elevator system, and Yamasaki has shown himself equally imaginative here. A combination of express and local elevator banks, called a skylobby system, it is particularly efficient because it requires fewer elevator shafts—thus freeing approximately 75 percent of the total floor area for occupancy; had a conventional elevator arrangement been adopted, only approximately 50 percent would have been available. The building has three vertical zones; express elevators serve skylobbies at the forty-first and seventy-fourth floors; from these, and from the plaza level, four banks of local elevators carry passengers to each of the three zones.
. . .
Skylobbies on floors 44 and 78 served by high speed elevators. http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/World_Trade_Center.html
http://img327.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tt1.jpg (image not hotlinking correctly) http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=106842
All elevators and three egress stairs were located within the core, although on any given floor the arrangements of the elevators and location of the stairs varied
. . .
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/ArkanWolfshade/nist1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/ArkanWolfshade/nist2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/ArkanWolfshade/nist3.jpg http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-1.pdf

[bje]

Clatterfarts is a helluva word.

C'est un bon mot, n'est-ce pas?

Right up there with potvaliant and spiflicated.

[Swing Dangler]

Gravy-An elevator engineer in the south tower reports:

First deceptive claim: Using accounts of the south tower and trying to apply them to the North Tower. That is that false analogy you keep using. Do I need to explain it.
Holy Cow, Gravy, you can't stick to one tower can you? The topic has been on the North Tower sub-levels, so stop posting stuff from the South Tower. That is deceiving to the readers and doesn't prove anything in regards to the event in the WTC: North Tower sub-levels!


Wolfshade I posted that graphic earlier and Gumboot thought it was not a a good example of the shafts. Can you explain to him why it is an excellent graphic for this discussion?

hard line-Can anyone show that there was a possible route for jet fuel through elevator shafts other than shaft 6, 7, or 50? Name one shaft.
I would like to know this as well. It could be a new designer jet fuel that weaves its way around the various shafts at the mechanical levels to reach the basement to cause all the damage to people and the environment. Don't feel bad, Hard line, they avoided a similar question that I posed.

Kookbreaker-The only confusion was from wondering for what reason you brought this issue up, and why you think it is so important. Its relevance to the issue is minimal, and seems to be solely a stroking exercise for you.
See the above question by Hard Line.

HardLine:
WTC: North was hit in the 94-98 th floor. In the graphic below, this is approx. 10 floors higher than the green shaft. The red shaft was the one with Arturo's car 50, if I'm not mistaken. The long blue shaft is the shaft that had car 6, correct? The other shaft with car 7, is the green shaft shown on the far right, if I'm not mistaken.

1. Question: what shaft did the fuel travel down?
I think we can rule out the far right green shaft as it was 10 floors below the impact. Which leaves us with the red shaft and the extended blue shaft.
However, Arturo's multiple sourced account mentions no fireball, no fuel, or burns, only snapped cables and his car's emergency break activates, keeping it from slamming into the shaft pit far below.
So we can eliminate the red shaft.
In order for jet fuel to travel down the long blue shaft, the fuel would have to pass through the red shaft without incident which seems unlikely. The long blue shaft, which appears to be where the car Arturo's wife was located (78th floor) suffered a fire, but no mention of the elevator dropping from cables cut.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KING: Where were you when everything hit?
CARMEN GRIFFITH, WTC SURVIVOR: I was on the 78th floor, inside of an elevator with six other people, ready to take them up to Cantor Fitzgerald.
KING: And what happened?
C. GRIFFITH: I couldn't even take off because there was a loud noise. And we all bent down and put our hands over our heads and we started screaming because stuff was coming down on top of the elevator. And the next thing we heard was an explosion and the side panel of the elevator opened up like a "V" and fire just came inside of the elevator; it was burning all of us.

However, notice the situation here, yet? Carmen Griffith and her passengers are alive when they should be dead if the OS fireball transpired as described! But yet the same jet fuel fire causes the massive destruction and injury 79-80 stories below all the way to sub-level 4 and the PATH Train Plaza Platform through 1 elevator shaft?? Not only that, this same event also causes the destruction in the lobby area as well?

You guys don't see the problem with this scenario? Are you really that entrenched to defending this to ignore the implausibility of this fuel fire?
7181

[bje]

You guys don't see the problem with this scenario? Are you really that entrenched to defending this to ignore the implausibility of this fuel fire?
7181

Unfortunately, you have yet to provide any evidence contradicting the testimony of fireballs being seen by eyewitnesses on multiple floors, have yet to account for the 40%-50% of the fuel that was unburned after the crash into WTC 1, and you have not contradicted the testimony from survivors on 44 separate floors of WTC 1 from floor 90 on down of smelling jet fuel. For starters.

We keep asking, you keep avoiding answering, Swing.

Then, of course, you have provided no evidence of explosives anywhere in the building. None. Nada. Zilch.

And yet you claim to know how the whole bloody thing happened from beginning to end.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

First deceptive claim: Using accounts of the south tower and trying to apply them to the North Tower. That is that false analogy you keep using. Do I need to explain it.
Holy Cow, Gravy, you can't stick to one tower can you? The topic has been on the North Tower sub-levels, so stop posting stuff from the South Tower. That is deceiving to the readers and doesn't prove anything in regards to the event in the WTC: North Tower sub-levels!
Care to provide some evidence that the south tower had different architecture/layout than the north tower?


Wolfshade I posted that graphic earlier and Gumboot thought it was not a a good example of the shafts. Can you explain to him why it is an excellent graphic for this discussion?
All I did was provide all information I had readily available that was pertinant to the question. I drew no conclusions, nor made any statement as to how well it answered the question, if at all. If you want to use some of the information I posted to support your assertion, do so.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Cross-posting this:
Gravy have you ever seen this interesting elevator layout. From my understanding however it is an early design. Not the finalized version.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o72/ardoucette/ElevatorLayout-page146rb.png (http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o72/ardoucette/ElevatorLayout-page146rb.png)

[hard lines]

Show me my deceptive claims. Right now.

I didn't say your claims were deceiving, i said your paper was deceiving.

The reason i say this, is sure, you tell us that 6, 7, and 50 extended from impact of WTC 1 to the lower levels. However, you don't go as far as to spell it out for your readers that 6, 7, and 50 were the ONLY shafts that extended to the lower levels.

You then post floor plans showing elevator shaft continuity, you tell us that your graphics indicate elevator continuity. You tell us what shafts coloured blue and yellow represent, but make no mention of what the red shafts represent. You show selected levels, and to someone who has not researched the elevator layout, it might appear that some of the shafts coloured red extend all the way to the lower levels.

Your fellow forum member volatile, has proved my claim that your paper is deceiving by pointing me to your floor plan graphics in response to my question of which elevator car had a shaft which would extend from the lower levels beyond the 78th floor skylobby. Thus assuming your graphics would show me in "pretty colours" other shafts besides 6, 7, and 50.

There appears to be confusion about this issue here on this forum, some members are still trying to show that local elevators shared the same shaft and therefore they had also had continuity. Kookbreaker tells me i am asking a question of which i know an answer doesn't exist, he is right. Even now Gravy, you have still not told us that 6, 7, and 50 were the only shafts to extend from above the 78th floor skylobby to the lower levels.

I think this confusion should be cleared up.

Here is the lobby, local elevators were in banks A, B, C and D.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x312/911wtc1/lobby.jpg

Here are floors 19 through 23, note that bank A has terminated, opening extra floor space to tennants.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x312/911wtc1/19-23.jpg

Here are floors 27 through 31, note that bank B has terminated, opening extra floor space to tennants.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x312/911wtc1/27-31-1.jpg

Here are floors 35 through 40, note that bank C has terminated, opening extra floor space to tennants.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x312/911wtc1/35-40-1.jpg

Here is the 42nd floor upper mechanical room, bank D terminates to allow for the motor to be intalled over the shaft.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x312/911wtc1/mech.jpg

Here is the bank D elevator elevation drawing. Note that the shaft terminates and does not continue past the mechanical room. If we look at the top of the drawing we can see that the mechanical room is sealed by the 43rd floor. The drawing shows above this area on the 43rd floor are toilets and a new zone 2 elevator shaft pit. Hence the elevators are stacked.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x312/911wtc1/bankd.jpg

Here we have the 43rd floor showing the postion of the toilets and the new zone 2 elevator shaft pits.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x312/911wtc1/43.jpg

Elevator cars 6, 7, and 50 were the only to extend from the lower levels to above the 78th floor skylobby. The significance of this is that we know which shafts the fuel had to of come down. There are some reports including within Gravy's paper that conflict with this information.

[gumboot]

I would please like some clarity, Gravy perhaps?

Firstly, I'm not interested in elevators. I couldn't care less about elevators. Elevators are irrelevant.

All I want to know about is shafts. Physical holes in the building.

1) Did, or did not, any shafts run the entire length of the building? Presence or lack of objects/machinery/tree houses in the shafts are also irrelevant.

2) If shafts did run the entire length of the building, which ones?

3) If shafts did not run the entire length of the building, what was the nature of the termination of the shaft? Stopping altogether, replaced by floor space? Replaced by stairs? Interrupted for a floor (two? three?) before continuing in the same/different dimensions?

I am only interested in hearing responses from people whom have a track record of being reliable. Alternatively you can provide links to someone involved in the structure (architect, engineer) who answers my questions directly and clearly.

If you do not have such a link, and you do not have a track record of reliability in discussions with me, please do not waste your time and mine.

Regards,
Gumboot

[gumboot]

I didn't say your claims were deceiving, i said your paper was deceiving.

The reason i say this, is sure, you tell us that 6, 7, and 50 extended from impact of WTC 1 to the lower levels. However, you don't go as far as to spell it out for your readers that 6, 7, and 50 were the ONLY shafts that extended to the lower levels.

You then post floor plans showing elevator shaft continuity, you tell us that your graphics indicate elevator continuity. You tell us what shafts coloured blue and yellow represent, but make no mention of what the red shafts represent. You show selected levels, and to someone who has not researched the elevator layout, it might appear that some of the shafts coloured red extend all the way to the lower levels.

Your fellow forum member volatile, has proved my claim that your paper is deceiving by pointing me to your floor plan graphics in response to my question of which elevator car had a shaft which would extend from the lower levels beyond the 78th floor skylobby. Thus assuming your graphics would show me in "pretty colours" other shafts besides 6, 7, and 50.

There appears to be confusion about this issue here on this forum, some members are still trying to show that local elevators shared the same shaft and therefore they had also had continuity. Kookbreaker tells me i am asking a question of which i know an answer doesn't exist, he is right. Even now Gravy, you have still not told us that 6, 7, and 50 were the only shafts to extend from above the 78th floor skylobby to the lower levels.

I think this confusion should be cleared up.

Here is the lobby, local elevators were in banks A, B, C and D.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x312/911wtc1/lobby.jpg

Here are floors 19 through 23, note that bank A has terminated, opening extra floor space to tennants.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x312/911wtc1/19-23.jpg

Here are floors 27 through 31, note that bank B has terminated, opening extra floor space to tennants.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x312/911wtc1/27-31-1.jpg

Here are floors 35 through 40, note that bank C has terminated, opening extra floor space to tennants.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x312/911wtc1/35-40-1.jpg

Here is the 43rd floor upper mechanical room, bank D terminates to allow for the motor to be intalled over the shaft.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x312/911wtc1/43.jpg

Here is the bank D elevator elevation drawing. Note that the shaft terminates and does not continue past the mechanical room. If we look at the top of the drawing we can see that the mechanical room is sealed by the 43rd floor. The drawing shows above this area on the 43rd floor are toilets and a new zone 2 elevator shaft pit. Hence the elevators are stacked.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x312/911wtc1/bankd.jpg

Here we have the 43rd floor showing the postion of the toilets and the new zone 2 elevator shaft pits.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x312/911wtc1/43.jpg

Elevator cars 6, 7, and 50 were the only to extend from the lower levels to above the 78th floor skylobby. The significance of this is that we know which shafts the fuel had to of come down. There are some reports including within Gravy's paper that conflict with this information.


I know this post was not posted in response to my questions, but it addresses them. Thanks.

Further questions, for anyone.

1) Are these drawings genuine?
2) Are these drawings an accurate reflection of the actual physical buildings, or are they an early non-implemented design?
3) Were elevator cars physically stacked inside continuous shafts at any point in the buildings?
4) If not, why were FDNY personnel concerned about elevator cars falling onto lower cars in the same shaft?

Again, evidence, or a track record of reliability (which frankly means evidence).

Alternative answers to my previous questions are also welcome.

Regards,
-Gumboot

[Gravy]

First deceptive claim: Using accounts of the south tower and trying to apply them to the North Tower. That is that false analogy you keep using. Do I need to explain it. My paper discusses the elevator shafts and shaft explosions in both towers, as do the quoted texts above, genius. Are you also arguing that there was no fireball from the south tower elevators?

[Gravy]

I didn't say your claims were deceiving, i said your paper was deceiving.And my paper magically wrote itself?

The reason i say this, is sure, you tell us that 6, 7, and 50 extended from impact of WTC 1 to the lower levels. However, you don't go as far as to spell it out for your readers that 6, 7, and 50 were the ONLY shafts that extended to the lower levels.

You then post floor plans showing elevator shaft continuity, you tell us that your graphics indicate elevator continuity. You tell us what shafts coloured blue and yellow represent, but make no mention of what the red shafts represent. You show selected levels, and to someone who has not researched the elevator layout, it might appear that some of the shafts coloured red extend all the way to the lower levels.Check the paper again. Show me the express elevators on the 89-93 floors. Oh, that's right, there are no shafts there. Show me the contiguous local shafts on the other floors. They terminate. There is only one pair of elevators besides the 6/7 and the 50 that could be construed from the diagram as traveling to level B2 (although not to B4): those to the left of the 50 elevator, except that discontinuity between the zones is explained in the text:

The shuttle cars were those cars that would run from a lobby up to a zone. They had three zones in the building. They had the first zone which ran from one to 42, then the second zone started from 44 up to 76, and the third zone started from 78 up to 110."

...For an elevator’s cables to be cut and result in dropping the car to the bottom of the shaft, the cables would need to have been in the aircraft impact debris path, floors 93 through 98 in WTC 1 or floors 78 through 83 in WTC 2. Inspection of the elevator riser diagram and architectural floor plans for WTC 1 shows that the following elevators met these criteria: cars 81 through 86 (Bank B) and 87 through 92 (Bank C), local cars in Zone III; car 50, the freight elevator, and car 6, the Zone III shuttle. … Cars 6 and 50 could have fallen all the way to the pit in the sub-basement level, and car 50 in WTC 1 was reported to have done so. http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-7.pdf(PDF (http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-7.pdf%28PDF) pg. 160)I've added a 41st floor diagram. I hope this resolves your confusion.

How are you coming along on the Edward McCabe situation? Contacted him yet?

[hard lines]

And my paper magically wrote itself?
It wasn't your claims that i considered deceiving, rather the lack of them.

Check the paper again. Show me the express elevators on the 89-93 floors. Oh, that's right, there are no shafts there. Show me the contiguous local shafts on the other floors. They terminate. There is only one pair of elevators besides the 6/7 and the 50 that could be construed from the diagram as traveling to thoe B2 or B4: those to the left of the 50 elevator, except that discontinuity between zones is explained in the text:
I've added a 41st floor diagram. I hope this resolves your confusion.

Why not just spell it out in your paper that no other shafts had continuity from impact zone of WTC 1 to the lower levels, other than 6, 7, and 50?

It certainly didn't confuse me, but as we have already seen, it has confused others.

I believe gumboot is still waiting for some clarification on the issue.

[Gravy]

Elevator cars 6, 7, and 50 were the only to extend from the lower levels to above the 78th floor skylobby. The significance of this is that we know which shafts the fuel had to of come down. There are some reports including within Gravy's paper that conflict with this information.If you're going to make a definitive statement about how fuel could have flowed in the building, you're going to have to also look at all other shafts and ducts, particularly those adjacent to elevator shafts. You're also going to have to consider damage to shaftways allowing fuel to spill from one shaft to another.

I haven't made a definitive statement about all paths for fuel flow in the buildings because it isn't necessary to. The arrangement of elevator shafts is sufficient to explain the observed events.

Do you disagree? Then write up your theory and back it with evidence.

[Gravy]

I would please like some clarity, Gravy perhaps?

Firstly, I'm not interested in elevators. I couldn't care less about elevators. Elevators are irrelevant.

All I want to know about is shafts. Physical holes in the building.

1) Did, or did not, any shafts run the entire length of the building? Presence or lack of objects/machinery/tree houses in the shafts are also irrelevant.

2) If shafts did run the entire length of the building, which ones?Yes. In the north tower, the large 6/7 elevator shaft ran from above the aircraft impact zone and terminated on sublevel B4. The shaft for freight elevator 50 ran from above the impact zone and terminated in bedrock below sublevel B6. In the south tower, in addition to the 6/7 and 50 shafts, the 78th floor skylobby express elevators ran from the impact floor to sublevel B2. These shafts are shown and explained in my paper.

[Swing Dangler]

Unfortunately, you have yet to provide any evidence contradicting the testimony of fireballs being seen by eyewitnesses on multiple floors, have yet to account for the 40%-50% of the fuel that was unburned after the crash into WTC 1, and you have not contradicted the testimony from survivors on 44 separate floors of WTC 1 from floor 90 on down of smelling jet fuel. For starters.
And yet you claim to know how the whole bloody thing happened from beginning to end.

Multiple floors: can you be more specific?
One, the 40-50% claim is based upon the assumption of NIST that the only oxygen used in the initial fire was the oxygen in the floor itself. I pointed that out earlier in the discussion and was met with complete silence.
You don't find that a bit bizarre?
NIST has provided no scientific data to support the fireball myth and how it caused the damage in the sub-levels but doesn't kill people on the way down to the basement. They assumed that car 50 fell to the pit in the basement, but Arturo will tell you otherwise, as he is alive.
The fireball upon impact doesn't blow off all of the aluminum panels during the explosion and we are expected to believe the fire had enough overpressure to destroy basement areas?? Not only that, it doesn't destroy the shaft all the way down to the sub-levels.

Care to provide some evidence that the south tower had different architecture/layout than the north tower? I don't need to. The false analogy is based upon: jet impact location, direction of attack, angle of attack, initial explosion, damage to the basement levels, fireball behavior, etc.
Gravy-
My paper discusses the elevator shafts and shaft explosions in both towers, as do the quoted texts above, genius. Are you also arguing that there was no fireball from the south tower elevators?
Yes, true, your paper does do that. In this discussion, you are using a south tower account to support what happened in the sub-levels of WTC: North Tower when no evidence exists of an elevator smashing into the sublevels . Second, the witness account is again told what happened and mentions no names as to who told him what happened and no explanation why the emergency brakes didn't work. Finally, in his account, there is no JET FUEL that caused the smoke in the south tower lobby only the elevator.
So which is it? Jet fuel fire explosion or an elevator explosion in the south tower lobby area?

Gravy-I haven't made a definitive statement about all paths for fuel flow in the buildings because it isn't necessary to. The arrangement of elevator shafts is sufficient to explain the observed events.

Oh Gravy, we don't need you to, you aren't a representative of NIST that examined the collapse. It is typical of course for defenders of the OS to not show how things transpired on that day, just accept it as fact, eh and move on!
Then again, why would we expect you to layout how the fuel snaked its way around various shafts all the way to the sub-levels and cause the human and environmental damage. The arrangement of the elevator shafts compared to the eyewitness accounts and the Griffith miracles shows that there was no fireball that caused the damage in the sub-levels.
And finally you are the one claiming the fireball caused the damage in the subbasement but yet to refuse to back it up with evidence. And your only evidence: the arrangement of the elevator shafts and the events that must have transpired to cause the damage in the basement conflict with the necessity of the facts.


BJEAnd yet you claim to know how the whole bloody thing happened from beginning to end. are you still claiming to know the official collapse time of WTC 7? Whole bloody thing? I don't recall stating that. I've presented a working theory on this thread on how explosives could have been used in the sub-basement in the North Tower, and possibly elsewhere.

[Gravy]

NIST has provided no scientific data to support the fireball myth and how it caused the damage in the sub-levels but doesn't kill people on the way down to the basement.

Straw-Frikking-Man (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html)

The fireball traveled the length of the shafts, Swing?

Elevators didn't fall in their shafts, Swing?

No one died in the lobbies from jet fuel explosions, Swing?

What a sad waste of time you are.

[Gravy]

The false analogy is based upon: jet impact location, direction of attack, angle of attack, initial explosion, damage to the basement levels, fireball behavior, etc.


Did flight 175 hit the south tower core? Yes or no?

Yes, true, your paper does do that. In this discussion, you are using a south tower account to support what happened in the sub-levels of WTC: North Tower when no evidence exists of an elevator smashing into the sublevels . Second, the witness account is again told what happened and mentions no names as to who told him what happened and no explanation why the emergency brakes didn't work. Finally, in his account, there is no JET FUEL that caused the smoke in the south tower lobby only the elevator.
So which is it? Jet fuel fire explosion or an elevator explosion in the south tower lobby area?


What the hell is wrong with you?

South Tower lobby
Ron DiFrancesco: As he left the building, he saw a fireball rolling toward him. He put his arms in front of his face.

He woke up three days later at St. Vincent's hospital. His arms were burned. Some bones were broken. His lungs were singed. But he was alive — the last person out of the south tower. http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/12/19/usat-escape.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/12/19/usat-escape.htm)


South Tower Lobby
Mike Pecoraro and Arti made their way out of Tower One and went to Tower Two. They encountered a crowd of people standing outside the tower, not knowing what had happened. Apparently, they had witnessed a fireball come through the lobby after the second airplane had struck that tower, but they were entering directly from the subway underground and had as yet, no idea of what was happening. Mike and Arti told them all to leave and go home. http://www.chiefengineer.org/article.cfm?seqnum1=1029 (http://www.chiefengineer.org/article.cfm?seqnum1=1029)

South Tower Concourse
PAPD officer Will Jimeno: damage done to lower levels by flight 175 impact.
[Jimeno working at the PA Bus Terminal on 42nd St. got to WTC just before the 2nd plane hit]

And, just then, it is like an earthquake when the plane hits the south building. ...when huge parts of the tower and shock waves come down into the plaza area, cracking all the cement. The whole concourse above us collapses. There are a lot of civilians all around, and I don't know what happens to them, but I think it has to be bad. I can see Liberty Street before me as I feel a ball of debris hit us. Now I see a huge fireball coming at us, and I yell, "Run! Run towards the freight elevator!" [Smith: The fire has come from the fuel that has poured down the elevator shafts.] Dennis Smith. Report From Ground Zero. New York: Viking Penguin, 2002. p. 114

What followed was unlike anything I have ever experienced, or could imagine experiencing; the only thing that comes close is the movie Die Hard. When that plane blew through upstairs the repercussions only took about 25 seconds, but it all seemed in slow motion to me, as if I was watching myself on a movie screen. All of the oxygen was sucked out of the building and my lungs (like being in a vacuum). I felt doomed because the turnstile exiting the elevator bank would not unlock for me to get out and run for the revolving doors leading out of the lobby and into the mall under the plaza level. I could not have known at that panic-filled moment, but that locked-up turnstile would save my life. Instead I'm thinking, "This is where I will die," because I can hear an explosion roaring downward inside the building. Yet somehow I looked over to see that the end turnstile wraps around a support beam forming about a two-square-foot space, but there is only about six inches to squeeze through between the end of the turnstile and wall beam. Something inside me told me to get in there. I'm about 100 pounds soaking wet, so I pressed myself through and balled up facing the support beam with the steel barrier wrapped around my back giving me a little protected cubby hole.

This is when the explosion came.

It progressed down the building, breaking the windows as it went; the entire building was groaning, an unnatural, unearthly sound, much like a can squeezing, or cracking uncooked spaghetti. By the time it reached the lobby, the marble veneer was cracking and falling off the walls; the chandeliers shattered on the floors along with the plaster ceiling, and the force imploded in at about 50 mph, pulling metal, balled safety glass, and other material with it. The pipes were bursting over my head and dense materials were flying around me as if they were being pureed in a blender. In the next instant came a horrible noise and a flash of extreme heat and light blown directly over my head. I concluded later in the day that this was from the huge airplane fireball sent down the 78-110 elevator shaft that exploded out into the lobby, and blew around the walls and curled into the center vestibule where I was taking cover. The third and last explosion occurred when a huge chunk of burning wreckage fell to Liberty Street, which runs parallel along the south side of the South Tower, and crashed through the building into the lobby behind me, bringing metal, glass, marble and revolving doors with it. There had been four security men and some fleeing WTC workers behind me near those revolving doors; I realized that they were all taken out by either a huge chunk of the building exploding outwards or the tail end of the plane falling to the street. I now know that there were nine of us in the lobby that day when the plane hit, two NYPD officers on the 44-77 elevator side, and two others coming out of emergency stairwells on the 78-110 elevator side. The two officers and I were the only ones who made it out alive.

As the debris and dust settled, water started to rain down, and black smoke began to roll through with the strong smell of jet fuel in what was left of a once beautiful lobby. I jumped up, wedging myself out of my cubbyhole, and tried to crawl under the turnstiles and out for the revolving doors leading to the mall. I was covered in dust, glass, water and a variety of other stuff, trying to get to one of the 10 revolving doors in front of me with every bit of calm I could muster. It was not easy. I looked back at two bodies, then forward to notice a ladder perched in front of one revolving door. Used to reach flowers in planters above the doors, it was a startling sight, completely undisturbed, along with the flowers and planters, in an otherwise chaotic, collapsing, rubble-filled lobby. After crawling to the revolving doors leading into the underground mall, I went about 14 feet further and came to a NYFD firefighter at the mall doors, who was pulling the door from the mall side. I couldn't move those doors because of all the debris in the footwell and their weight, nor did I think fast enough to crawl through the openings where the glass had been. He reached his hand in and pulled me through the door by my jacket shoulder, and asked if I was okay. I thought to myself, “Thank God the cavalry is here, everything is going to be okay, if anyone can fix this the Fire Department can." Of course I didn’t know the full scope of the situation at that moment and I don't think they did either. http://www.rightnation.us/blog/guest/index.php?id=P306

What a sad waste of time you are.

[CHF]

Care to tackle what I asked earlier, Swing?

So...you now take the positions that Islamic jihadists planted a bomb in the basement – something you refused to state before. Yet you’ve also stated repeatedly on SLC that the WTC towers were controlled demolitions (or “explosions of buildings” as you once put it).

So did those same jihadists rig up the towers? Did they also take down WTC7? Or did “a few individuals” in the CIA leave the planes and basement to Al Qaeda while doing the rest themselves?

I'm honestly quite interested in what exactly you're trying to say. Piece it all together for me.

[Gravy]

Correction: I cut and pasted too fast above. Ron DiFrancesco's account is about the collapse of the south tower, which he experienced when outside the building.

[bje]

Multiple floors: can you be more specific?

BJEAnd yet you claim to know how the whole bloody thing happened from beginning to end. are you still claiming to know the official collapse time of WTC 7? Whole bloody thing? I don't recall stating that.

How convenient of you to forget.

I've presented a working theory on this thread on how explosives could have been used in the sub-basement in the North Tower, and possibly elsewhere.

No, you have done no such thing. You claim, instead, that "fireballs" is a myth and refuse to present any evidence about so-called "explosives"; how they were planted, by whom, why, how much, and any actual forensic evidence to support the claim.

That is why you have lost, Swing.

[Swing Dangler]

Oh Gravy here you go again:
Did flight 175 hit the south tower core? Yes or no?

Hey wake up Gravy. The discussion is about the Willie R. and the North Tower basement levels, not the South Tower's impact zones and its damage. Why do you keep doing that?

BJE-No, you have done no such thing. You claim, instead, that "fireballs" is a myth and refuse to present any evidence about so-called "explosives"; how they were planted, by whom, why, how much, and any actual forensic evidence to support the claim. That is why you have lost, Swing.:seroflmao:
You are comical as you have missed the entire thread apparently where I presented at least two possible suspects, victim accounts of injury and damage to the environment, possible means and methods, as well as .
I've pointed out errors and assumptions in the NIST report supporting a fireball excuse.
The forensic empirical evidence has been destroyed in the collapse which was covered on like page 2 or 3 of this thread which resulted in the whole empirical evidence and the empirical method issue. Go back and read to catch up.

I've lost because of this:

1. Everyone continues to ignore how the fireball damaged the substructures far below the impact zone. With no scientific data supporting the energy required, we are asked to accept assumptions and errors.

2. No one cares to trace the route of the jet fuel or for that matter the fireball and which shaft or shafts it traveled down.

3. No one seems to care that NIST left out the big gaping whole in WTC: North Tower as an source of oxygen for combustion thereby arriving at unsupported remaining levels of fuel supposedly responsible for such destruction experienced so near the impact.

4. No one cares that there is no scientific data supporting the fire or jet fuel energy after impact needed to cause the damage in the basement.

5. No one cares that it takes two miracles in the North Tower for the fireball explanation to hold true.

6. The only person at least attempting to explain the offical fireball has to use the South Tower in a false analogy fallacy and misleading colored drawings in his own error filled character attack of Willie R.

7. Everyone disregards the first thoughts and reminders of the 1993 truck bomb many witnesses were reminded of and the FBI's first hypothesis.

8. Everyone ignores the historical tactics of terrorists around the globe in regards to attacks on structures.

I've lost BJE? The only thing I was incorrect on was the color of kerosene vapor that is produced by a process used in smoke machines and a dam kerosene heater!!!
I've lost because neither the official excuse nor the explosive device can't be proven through empirical evidence because of global collapse??
You do more to enable terrorists more than ANY conspiracy theorist could by ignoring the empirical method that points to an explosive device used in the sub-levels of WTC: North Tower. Al-Q is loving you right now! In the next terrorist attack on a building, all the terrorists will have to do is start a fire and cut some elevator cables to cease any investigation.
Your only solution to terrorists attacks against other high rise structures around the world? BETTER FIREPROOFING! :bs:

[Woody-]

Call me baffled by this argument that since only a few shafts were continuous fuel couldn't flow down the towers.

Each of those express elevators had a capacity of 55 people. I dont know the exact dimensions but I'm guessing at least a 10 ft by 10 ft shaft, but probably larger. How much fuel can you pour down a 100 square foot opening? Its not like you trying to force it through a hose, its a freaking gaping hole. If only one of the shafts was "open" there was more than enough room for the jet fuel to travel down the tower.

[LashL]

Perhaps this is an obvious point regarding elevator shafts but it seems to be overlooked frequently so I thought I would mention it.

Just because an elevator does not travel below a certain floor does not mean that the shaft does not continue below the level that the elevator services. There are elevator pits below, which means that, of necessity, the shafts extend below the level that the elevator actually services.

Similarly, the shafts also extend above the top floor that an elevator actually services. In the WTC, for instance, the shafts for the large express elevators to the 78th floor skylobby extended to the 80th floor.

So, every one of the shafts housing the large express elevators to the 78th floor skylobby extended from at least floor 80 to below ground level.

[LashL]

Elevator cars 6, 7, and 50 were the only to extend from the lower levels to above the 78th floor skylobby. The significance of this is that we know which shafts the fuel had to of come down. There are some reports including within Gravy's paper that conflict with this information.

See my post above. Those elevator cars may have been the only ones to service floors from below grade to above 78, but the shafts housing several other elevator cars also extended from below grade to above 78.

[beachnut]

1. Everyone continues to ignore how the fireball damaged the substructures far below the impact zone. With no scientific data supporting the energy required, we are asked to accept assumptions and errors.I have never seen proof of any substucture damage. I have heard hearsay. It would be cool if you could site the substucture proof of damage. If you are talking about an explosive device, a large one, then forget it, William would of been killed in a large one, or there would have been dead guys instead of burnt guys.
2. No one cares to trace the route of the jet fuel or for that matter the fireball and which shaft or shafts it traveled down. If it means that much to you, then you could do it. Or are you just asking questions. What is your purpose, or goal?
3. No one seems to care that NIST left out the big gaping whole in WTC: North Tower as an source of oxygen for combustion thereby arriving at unsupported remaining levels of fuel supposedly responsible for such destruction experienced so near the impact. What are you talking about? There is oxygen all around, and a big giant hole in both towers, so? But the initial impact fireball would be unique and could us up all the initial oxygen in the area, but I have to study fuel air mixture bombs. Study time. But how would this help our hero William who can not figure out what he heard or when he heard it. This will not help Williams decent into being with the liars of 9/11 truth. (further study needed)
4. No one cares that there is no scientific data supporting the fire or jet fuel energy after impact needed to cause the damage in the basement. What damage in the basement? Exactly what damage was caused, and how much energy did it require to do? 5. No one cares that it takes two miracles in the North Tower for the fireball explanation to hold true. Just you. But what did the fireball do? And only you hold the miracle thing. You are unique. But you are very hung up on William being your hero, or what? Are you William?
6. The only person at least attempting to explain the offical fireball has to use the South Tower in a false analogy fallacy and misleading colored drawings in his own error filled character attack of Willie R.What does this mean? William does not need a fire ball to show he is truthy and making up stuff about 9/11.
7. Everyone disregards the first thoughts and reminders of the 1993 truck bomb many witnesses were reminded of and the FBI's first hypothesis. 9/11, can you do a better job relating this to 9/11?
8. Everyone ignores the historical tactics of terrorists around the globe in regards to attacks on structures. And what are those? And what does this have to do with William? Are you trying to be hard to follow? How long have you been a truther with no facts?
I've lost BJE? The only thing I was incorrect on was the color of kerosene vapor that is produced by a process used in smoke machines and a dam kerosene heater!!!

I've lost because neither the official excuse nor the explosive device can't be proven through empirical evidence because of global collapse?? Yes you lost, jet fuel looks white when it is disperse in tiny droplets. No heater required, you are still trying to claim some points on that point. Lost. There were no explosives used to bring down the WTC towers on 9/11, it can be proven empirically and has been many times. You must be closed mined, and not thinking out of the box. No explosives in the WTC. Why would terrorist plant explosives in the WTC when they are running jets into the damn things? That would be stupid and not very good tactics. Only a truther would think up stupid stuff like explosives.

You do more to enable terrorists more than ANY conspiracy theorist could by ignoring the empirical method that points to an explosive device used in the sub-levels of WTC: North Tower. Al-Q is loving you right now! In the next terrorist attack on a building, all the terrorists will have to do is start a fire and cut some elevator cables to cease any investigation.This is not a very logical statement, now is it? There is nothing pointing to explosives in the subbasements. You are one funny guy. No facts, and trying to make up stuff to support a hero who has moved to zero. William is a truther who says he is not. He has sued like a truther, and he speaks the truther circuit. He is a truther. Sounds like, is not the same as is. President Clinton can help yhou with the meaning of is, if you need help.
Your only solution to terrorists attacks against other high rise structures around the world? BETTER FIREPROOFING! If they said concrete covered steel for better Fireproofing, then that would also help against a terrorist attack. Oops, WTC7 is new, and it has a stronger escape structure incase of intentional bad stuff. OMG, using what we learned to make things better. Oops, we messed up, the anti-terrorist stuff is better fireproofing, is that bad? I think you messed this point up, and need to try again.

William needs help, but since you were not there on 9/11, you are 5 years too late to save William from his fall into the fraud of 9/11 "truth".

[CHF]

Swing,

Who rigged up the towers?

Are you saying Al Qaeda did the planes and sub-levels of the North tower while the CIA handled the planting of bombs in the rest of the complex?

Please stop being a coward and clarify your position.

[Arus808]

the paper isn't supposed to support anything; IT demonstrates the EVERY CHANGING claims of the supposed LAST MAN out of the North Tower (well, by his claims, the last survivor of North Tower)

Swing, youve shown that you do not understand what you are talking about, and like every truther out there, you take "bits and pieces" of technical information; witnesses statements and ignore the rest if it doesn't support your claims. Why should we even believe what you say, when you can't even answer one question that has been posted to you several times


why
would
any
terrorist
plant
bombs
in
the
basement
if
they
planned
for
a
top
down
collapse?


Didn't the 1993 bombing tell the terrorist anything? Yes. They learned that any basement bombing WOULD BE USELESS. that is why they resorted to using airplanes as missiles to be flown into the buildings

anything else, it doesn't matter

this thread is SUPPOSED to be about Willie Rodriguez and his ever chaning statements.

[CHF]

Why should we even believe what you say, when you can't even answer one question that has been posted to you several times

why
would
any
terrorist
plant
bombs
in
the
basement
if
they
planned
for
a
top
down
collapse?

I was hoping Swing would eventually handle that one himself but I guess its not to be.

His answer to that question on SLC has been that the perps needed to weaken the core at the base in order to aid the top down-collapse.

No, I don't get it either.

Things tend to go really quiet when he's asked why parts of the core remained standing after the collapse.

So I guess Swing's answer can basically be summed up as: "I dunno."

[Arus808]

well, as long as we show that these "seekers" of truth are grasping at straws, then all the more to it. Swing has dmeonstrated over three sites, that he is ignornat of what he speaks about, and that he refuses to take the time to educate himself; and rather stay in the small world he created for himself.

[Swing Dangler]

I was hoping Swing would eventually handle that one himself but I guess its not to be.


Please show me where terrorists thought they would achieve a top down collapse as you state they wanted one. According to an OBL tape, they didn't think a global collapse would take place by the plane's impact.

CHF, are you looking for that grand unified theory again? Sorry. I don't have it.


They learned that any basement bombing WOULD BE USELESS. that is why they resorted to using airplanes as missiles to be flown into the buildings
A basement bomb alone, ARUS, did not bring the buildings down. And besides, what is your definition of a terrorist attack.
Oh and thanks for ignoring the moderator's request in the sticky thread they posted.

I have never seen proof of any substucture damage. I have heard hearsay. It would be cool if you could site the substucture proof of damage. If you are talking about an explosive device, a large one, then forget it, William would of been killed in a large one, or there would have been dead guys instead of burnt guys. I've already address the proof, the empirical proof of both an explosive device and a fireball. There is no empirical proof, hence the empirical method through the examination of first person eyewitnesses statements, PA transcripts, etc. to arrive at the hypothesis. Funny you mention who should have died and who didn't. In 1993, only 6 people died.
The basement damage is cited earlier in the thread.


If it means that much to you, then you could do it. Or are you just asking questions. What is your purpose, or goal?
The burden of proof that a fireball or jetfuel caused the damage and injury witnessed in the basement lays upon NIST or defenders of their story. Until it can shown, it is a story, not a fact.

What are you talking about? There is oxygen all around, and a big giant hole in both towers, so? But the initial impact fireball would be unique and could us up all the initial oxygen in the area, but I have to study fuel air mixture bombs. You didn't read the comments below or the NIST report then surrounding the North Tower fire and fuel?
NIST concluded that 40-50% of the fuel remained in the towers. They came to this calculation by calculating fuel combustion based upon the oxygen in one floor and then multiplied it by 4. They failed to account for the huge gapping whole as a source of oxygen, which of course would have reduced the amount of fuel.

Those elevator cars may have been the only ones to service floors from below grade to above 78, but the shafts housing several other elevator cars also extended from below grade to above 78.
LASHL, are you suggesting that all of the elevator shafts extended to the impact zone to the sub basement levels? Several graphics have been posted showing the length of the shafts. You may want to revisit those graphics.

What damage in the basement? Exactly what damage was caused, and how much energy did it require to do?
You should read the accounts of the victims that has been laid out earlier in the thread. A Cave in at B-4, a cave in at the PATH Plaza level, a machine shop destroyed, an office area blown up, parking garage and walls destroyed, additional walls destroyed.
I would like to the answer to the second question you pose as well. How much energy would it take to cause the environmental damage witnessed in the time period it was experienced.

Yes you lost, jet fuel looks white when it is disperse in tiny droplets.
Are you talking about jet fuel dumped out of planes at high altitudes intermixed with water vapor in comparison to white smoke in a basement or kerosene vapors from smoke machines. LOL! Oh god not this issue again.

Why would terrorist plant explosives in the WTC when they are running jets into the damn things?
I just love this question. Sorry if I missed it earlier in the thread.
Well you first assumption would be that the terrorists somehow knew they would be 100% successful in their hijacking plan and the ensuing collapses. We now know they weren't of course.
That is a pretty huge assumption to make to disprove an explosive device.
Why would they use an explosive device in the subbasement?

1. If they are intercepted and diverted, they have the device.

2. If they are shot down, they have the device.

3. If they encounter struggles on the plane, they have the device.

4. If they miss the flight, they have the device.

5. If they miss the target, they have the device.

6. If the plane has mechanical problems, they have the device.

7. If terrorists have second thoughts and change their mind about dying, they have the device.

The goal was a terrorist attack on American targets, not a global collapse of the structures.
A two pronged terrorist attack on the towers, ensures a near fail-proof attack on the structures and was successful.

[Gravy]

What's the next step, Swing? What are you going to do with this theory of yours?

Second, is there anything that can make you believe that the damage on the lower levels was caused by jet fuel and falling elevators?

[CHF]

Please show me where terrorists thought they would achieve a top down collapse as you state they wanted one. According to an OBL tape, they didn't think a global collapse would take place by the plane's impact.

CHF, are you looking for that grand unified theory again? Sorry. I don't have it.

I didn't say the terrorists wanted or expected a top-down collapse. I'm simply trying to figure out what your claim is.

You stated that the basement bomb was the work of Al Qaeda. Yet you also stated on SLC that the towers were demolitions, with explosives planted throughout the building.

I'm trying to get you to reconcile one claim with the other.

Your theory has a plane impact and a basement bomb being the work of Islamic terrorists. So who planted the demolition charges in the rest of the building? Surely you must have some idea.

[Civilized Worm]

The basement bombs were planted by...


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_16445466026aad260d.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6100)

[LashL]

LASHL, are you suggesting that all of the elevator shafts extended to the impact zone to the sub basement levels?

No, Swing. Perhaps you should read more slowly, and for comprehension.

Here is what I said:

Just because an elevator does not travel below a certain floor does not mean that the shaft does not continue below the level that the elevator services. There are elevator pits below, which means that, of necessity, the shafts extend below the level that the elevator actually services.

Similarly, the shafts also extend above the top floor that an elevator actually services. In the WTC, for instance, the shafts for the large express elevators to the 78th floor skylobby extended to the 80th floor.

So, every one of the shafts housing the large express elevators to the 78th floor skylobby extended from at least floor 80 to below ground level.



See my post above. Those elevator cars may have been the only ones to service floors from below grade to above 78, but the shafts housing several other elevator cars also extended from below grade to above 78.

Note that the post immediately above was in response to hardlines' post about elevator cars 6, 7, and 50.

Note also that "several" does not mean "all" and I even spelled out which shafts were the several that I was referring to - that is, the shafts housing the large express elevator cars that serviced up to the 78th floor. Those shafts ran from below-grade to above the 78th floor in addition to the ones mentioned by hardlines.

[beachnut]

Are you talking about jet fuel dumped out of planes at high altitudes intermixed with water vapor in comparison to white smoke in a basement or kerosene vapors from smoke machines. LOL! Oh god not this issue again.
LOL, read carefully. Not water vapor, pure fuel dumped looks like a white cloud. I am not talking about jet exhaust, the jet fuel is gone in jet exhaust, the fire in a jet engine burns at 700 degree C, the fuel turns into water and CO2, that looks white, pure fuel looks white when it is a cloud of fuel. Fuel, with no water vapor still looks white, like a cloud; questions? Please stop making simple mistakes, pay attention.

Your seven step summary is funny stuff. Far out.

[R.Mackey]

I just love this question. Sorry if I missed it earlier in the thread.
Well you first assumption would be that the terrorists somehow knew they would be 100% successful in their hijacking plan and the ensuing collapses. We now know they weren't of course.
That is a pretty huge assumption to make to disprove an explosive device.
Why would they use an explosive device in the subbasement?

1. If they are intercepted and diverted, they have the device.

2. If they are shot down, they have the device.

3. If they encounter struggles on the plane, they have the device.

4. If they miss the flight, they have the device.

5. If they miss the target, they have the device.

6. If the plane has mechanical problems, they have the device.

7. If terrorists have second thoughts and change their mind about dying, they have the device.

The goal was a terrorist attack on American targets, not a global collapse of the structures.
A two pronged terrorist attack on the towers, ensures a near fail-proof attack on the structures and was successful.

You just refuted yourself comprehensively. This "device" you're talking about could, by itself, ensure a "near fail-proof" attack.

In the scenario you just outlined, the airliners offer no advantages, and only risk -- in particular, the risk that someone might notice what a bizarrely complex plan they'd implemented. Since you seem to be one who "noticed," and you have only the barest access to evidence, I submit this was virtually guaranteed to occur.

You might enjoy my "WWaEGD" post (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2446470#post2446470) explaining how all such theories are patently absurd, because anyone who could implement such a plan would also be capable of a far more successful one.

[Gravy]

Why would they use an explosive device in the subbasement?

1. If they are intercepted and diverted, they have the device.

2. If they are shot down, they have the device.

3. If they encounter struggles on the plane, they have the device.

4. If they miss the flight, they have the device.

5. If they miss the target, they have the device.

6. If the plane has mechanical problems, they have the device.

7. If terrorists have second thoughts and change their mind about dying, they have the device.

The goal was a terrorist attack on American targets, not a global collapse of the structures.
A two pronged terrorist attack on the towers, ensures a near fail-proof attack on the structures and was successful.A device that produces a kerosene fireball that burns people and doesn't cause structural damage? Please explain the purpose of such a device. This is a fascinating theory.

No "Plan B" devices went off in the Pentagon. I wonder why.

No plane hit the Capitol building, yet no Plan B devices were set off there, or anywhere else in D.C. by the terrorists. I wonder why.

Finally, do you know the first rule of holes?

[Gravy]

You might enjoy my "WWaEGD" post (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2446470#post2446470) explaining how all such theories are patently absurd, because anyone who could implement such a plan would also be capable of a far more successful one.Seconded! Also, Swing, here's a whole page (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/thebasic%3Acriticalthinking%2Clogic%2Cscientif) of resources to help with your critical thinking skills, logic, differentiating between bunkum and fact, understanding confirmation bias, 9/11 motives, Occam's razor, falsifiability, and why the 9/11 conspiracy theories are nonsense.

[Swing Dangler]

What's the next step, Swing? What are you going to do with this theory of yours? Second, is there anything that can make you believe that the damage on the lower levels was caused by jet fuel and falling elevators?
Well yes there are, unlike 2 people who have commented they could be convinced there was a device in the basement when others take a religious approach to the topic:

1. I would like to see the possible route taken by the fuel that lead to the basement sub-levels.
2. I would like to see evidence in the North Tower that the elevators caused the damage and how that corresponds with the eyewitness accounts and descriptions in the basement of the North Tower.
3. Which elevator or elevators and what shafts were responsible for the damage?
4. Which of the three elevators caused the damage in the North Tower?
5. I would like to see the calculations associated with the energy necessary to account for the damage that the victims witnessed in comparison to the energy available.
6. It would have been nice if NIST would have used that big hole in the building as a source of oxygen when calculating the amount of fuel remaining in the structure. In my unprofessional opinion, I think this is a huge oversight.
7. I would like to see the placement of the victims in the basement in relation to the events and damaged they experienced.
8. I would like to see the evidence that NIST used to arrive at their conclusion.

RMackey, I assume this is the portion you were pointing to.
767's Couldn't Have Destroyed The Towers4
This argument supposes that the Evil Genius would know this ahead of time, and would thus have to have weakened the buildings or employed a secondary attack to finish them off -- because the towers did in fact fall, eventually.
Rubbish. A true Evil Genius would simply upgrade to 747's. Why not?
This is a poor example to refute the hypothesis. How can anyone claim to know the mind and resources of an "evil Islamic genius" and his cohorts?
Upgrade the weapon of attack to refute the hypothesis? This is comical. Perhaps the evil genius already considered the greatest 'upgrade' available and found it to be too risky or unavailable .
Perhaps the EG does not have the operating knowledge or access to the greatest 'upgrade' available.
Trying to use logic to determine the mind and method of an evil genius is illogical itself.

In the scenario you just outlined, the airliners offer no advantages, and only risk -- in particular, the risk that someone might notice what a bizarrely complex plan they'd implemented.
Yes, and various intel agencies did notice, correct? Hence the numerous warnings including George Tenet's presentation to Condi Rice?
Yes and the scenarios were worst case examples, especially if the hijacking was averted and the plane landed safely. Even this worst case scenario offers a psychological and 'lesson learned' advantage to the terrorists.
That of course makes you wonder, why would terrorists use such a risky method of attack in the form of planes in the first place.

because anyone who could implement such a plan would also be capable of a far more successful one.
Of course there is no logical proof for this statement only assumption. The implementation of a one plan is different than the success rate of a different plan. To judge the success rate of the plan, you have to know the goal and objectives and the benefits.
What was the goal of 9/11? What were its objectives? How do the terrorists define success in relation to the 9/11 attacks?
And how did the terrorists benefit from its success if they considered it a success? I'm not aware if the terrorists have provided concrete answers to any of these success rate questions.
If the ultimate goal of Al-Q and OBL is the removal of forces from the Islamic holy lands and the Middle East in general as well as the elimination of material and financial support to the state of Israel and governments that are repressive to Muslims, then the 9/11 attacks were not successful at all. The attacks indeed had the opposite effect. So in regards to the success of one plan versus the capability of a far more successful one indeed is irrelevant to the discussion of an explosive device in the basement and/or in the towers in general.


No "Plan B" devices went off in the Pentagon. I wonder why.
No plane hit the Capitol building, yet no Plan B devices were set off there, or anywhere else in D.C. by the terrorists. I wonder why.
Pentagon, Gravy? LOL! Yeah, Gravy, I wonder why there wasn't one at the Pentagon? Do you think they might have a little tougher time infiltrating the headquarters of the strongest military power in the world as opposed to a civilian target?
What terrorists claimed the Capitol building was a target on that day? Because anything else is sheer speculation and pointless in the point your trying to make. Again, your using yet another false analogy anyway. You may want to reexamine the site you posted an refresh your memory on what a false analogy is.

Beachnut, what does Jet fuel look like a ground level? Is it white? Is it clear? Is a dyed color? Please explain, because your completely ignoring the altitude issue in regards to fuel dumps and the white smoke below ground.

GravyA device that produces a kerosene fireball that burns people and doesn't cause structural damage?
Interesting. You ignored the environmental destruction yet again and fail to demonstrate what shafts and the route the jet fuel and/or fireball took in your sarcastic comment. Your position is that it was a fireball or jet fuel or a combination of both, which is fine.
Nor have you demonstrated the required energy available nor the energy needed to cause the destruction in the basement areas.

Gravy, here are some more errors from you paper.
That empty elevator probably plummeted 14 floors into a pit on the 77th floor. Wertz and Lawrence evacuated safely down the stairs, as did 18 other people from the 91st floor.
Not an error but is there any reason why you suspect the emergency breaks didn’t catch as they did in Arturo's account? Is there any reports of an elevator crashing on the 77th floor?

88th floor
“Roz”: ...an explosion of great magnitude blew off the entrance door through which I had just previously walked. It knocked us both down in her cubicle. http://www.servenyc.org/survivor_stories.htm
Dead Link, unable to verify the account.

87th floor: Jet fuel on floor
It was pandemonium and total confusion for the occupants and visitors on the 87th Floor. Bright white smoke was filling the hallways and liquid sparks were snaking along the floor – the jet fuel that had not exploded.
Carmen Griffith, who had been standing next to the elevator when the jet had hit, was engulfed by burning jet fuel that erupted through the elevator doors. Carmen was on fire, her skin peeling from her body.

There is no documented eyewitness to this account in the source, only the author’s words. Not only that, the author is completely wrong about Carmen’s account about being next to the elevator when in fact she was in the elevator.
Why Gravy, are you using this paper as a source is beyond me when the simple facts are wrong and were not checked for accuracy when writing your paper.:mgduh

[beachnut]

Beachnut, what does Jet fuel look like a ground level? Is it white? Is it clear? Is a dyed color? Please explain, because your completely ignoring the altitude issue in regards to fuel dumps and the white smoke below ground.
Swing Dangler, what does water look like at ground level? Is it white? Is it clear? Is it a dyed color? Please explain, because you completely fail to accept the fact jet fuel can look like a white cloud, which can look like white smoke and smell like jet fuel.

Water is clear but it can be, fog = white smoke = water, or it can be a, cloud = white smoke = water. I will save you the time to think about water. You could answer you own question, I have told you, people have showed you, and you still fail to get it. If you can not get the tiny stuff right, you may have problems with the big stuff.

You know water vapor and jet fuel vapor can hide, and be clear too. It all depends. It is a mystery.

Did someone see white clouds and smell jet fuel on 9/11? How will you prove there was a giant bomb in the basement? Who did it? I give up on the fuel, you are not taking to learning very well. You lost, just accept it. I am sure, any post now, you will let loose the evidence for the basement bomb. Will it be this year? We have waited for 5 plus years, when will it come?

[Swing Dangler]

Alleged plot's damage would have been limited
Jet fuel doesn't explode easily, experts say, and fire would not have spread along airport pipelines.
By Megan Garvey, Times Staff Writer
June 3, 2007

The premise is right out of a disaster movie: Ignite the massive fuel tanks required to keep an international airport up and running each day, stand back, and watch a chain reaction of explosions throughout the labyrinth of pipelines running underneath the tarmac.

But aviation experts cautioned Saturday that the alleged plot targeting John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York would have faced many hurdles, not least of which is the fact that jet fuel does not easily explode.

"The level of catastrophe that may be created is much more limited than most people would expect," said Rafi Ron, former head of security at Tel Aviv's Ben Gurion International Airport. "The fuel that we are talking about is mostly jet fuel, which, unlike the gasoline most people put into their cars, is not that susceptible to explosion."

That difficulty apparently concerned one of the alleged plotters — an engineer who, federal authorities said in their complaint, explained to his associates that the tanks at JFK would probably require two explosions to provide enough oxygen to ignite the fuel.

But even then, aviation security experts said, fire would not have spread through the pressurized pipelines that bring fuel out to airplanes parked at gates.

"The probability that an explosion would travel through the pipeline and destroy targets along the tarmac is almost nil," said Ron, now president of New Age Security Solutions in Rockville, Md. "The exception would be pipelines that are not in use and contain vapor."

Jet fuel is similar to kerosene and, unlike gasoline, requires very high temperatures to burn. Unless it is in vapor or mist form — which can occur in a plane crash — jet fuel does not explode.[/B] Additives raise the flashpoint of jet fuel, further reducing the likelihood that it will burn, experts said.
Source: LA TIMES (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-fuel3jun03,1,754605.story?track=rss)

Jet fuel is similar to kerosene, NOT kerosene.
So much for jet fuel exploding and causing the damage in the basement.
That leaves only jet fuel vapor or mist, which there is no proof that jet fuel vapor or mist was in the basement and white smoke could have been produced by many items burning in the building.
And again, in order to produce the vapor in white smoke form, the surface has to be heated enough prior to contact with the jet fuel in the first place.
However, this portion of the argument is pointless, as kerosene and jetfuel A are not the same thing. See below.
No plausible explanation of how this process was conducted in the North Tower to arrive at the necessary energy levels for destruction has been offered by NIST or by visitors to this thread. If Occam's Razor is a suitable counter-argument, then it should be easy to explain this vaporization/explosion process.

Notice that the article does not mention vapor or mist form which can occur after a plane crash but IN a plane crash and we saw that in the initial impact of the jet with the building.

More on the color of jet fuel and jet fuel vapor, take note that there is NO mention of the color of jetfuel A vapor however the color of jetfuelA in its liquid state is clear, not white:

Source: SINCLAIR
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET
SINCLAIR JP-8, JET A, TURBINE FUEL, AVIATION
FUEL MSDS NO. 62 (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:9PgWVDmOcrAJ:zenstoves.net/MSDS/JetFuels.pdf+jet+fuel+vapor+damage&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&client=firefox-a)

PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL PROPERTIES
APPEARANCE/PHYSICAL STATE:
Liquid, Colorless
SPECIFIC GRAVITY (g/ml):
0.77-0.84
VAPOR DENSITY (air=1):
4.5
VAPOR PRESSURE:
<1 PSIA

ENGINEERING CONTROLS:
Provide ventilation sufficient to prevent exceeding recommended exposure limit or build-up of explosive concentrations of vapor
in air.

Considering there was a huge gaping hole in the tower, open air office space as part of the design, and elevator shafts and stairwells that extended various levels of the building that were not sealed in a vacuum, it appears the environment was not suitable to allow a build-up of explosive concentrations of vapor.

Which brings us to the explosive device or devices in the subbasement of the North Tower. If the device or devices of whatever nature were centered around the core to assist in the tower's destruction, one would expect the type of injuries suffered in the elevator as they were within the core itself.

A hazardous vapor concentration is present when a fuel vapor reaches a level known as the lower flammability limit (LFL) or lower explosive limit (LEL). These limits are usually expressed as a percentage by volume. Fuels below the LFL/LEL are considered too lean to burn. If the fuel vapor concentration exceeds the upper flammability limit or upper explosive limit, the fuel is considered too rich to burn. A fuel vapor concentration between these two limits is considered to be in its flammable range and will ignite and burn if exposed to an ignition source. Source: Boeing (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_04/textonly/s01txt.html)
NIST nor any visitor has not provided any data to my knowledge proving the EEL, and if they did it was eventually based upon the only available oxygen to determine the fuel remaining being in a single room.

Beachnut, tell me again how I've lost?

[Swing Dangler]

Beach-Swing Dangler, what does water look like at ground level? Is it white? Is it clear? Is it a dyed color? Please explain, because you completely fail to accept the fact jet fuel can look like a white cloud, which can look like white smoke and smell like jet fuel.


No, I fail to accept your statement based upon the material data sheet listed below and simple fact. The data sheet referenced below states that JetFuelA is colorless, not white. When dumped at altitude it is under high pressure and forced through a very small opening. Why do you think it is white, when it begins clear? Simply the refraction of light by the liquid at altitude gives it the white color.

[CHF]

Swing,

I'm honestly quite confused as to why your story has changed so much.

Over on SLC you made the claim that the basement bomb was designed to somehow aid the collapse by weakening the core. Your claim, as I understood it, was that the black ops people of the US government were behind this.

Now you're claiming what? That it was an Al Qaeda back-up plan??? A back-up plan that was launched as the plane hit? A plan that didn't even do its job?

And I notice that you refuse to say who rigged up the towers themselves.

C'mon Swingy, you'll have to tell us sooner or later.

[beachnut]

No, I fail to accept your statement based upon the material data sheet listed below and simple fact. The data sheet referenced below states that JetFuelA is colorless, not white. When dumped at altitude it is under high pressure and forced through a very small opening. Why do you think it is white, when it begins clear? Simply the refraction of light by the liquid at altitude gives it the white color.You mean like water?
Ah, but what about Water? Darn, you have still lost. Try again. I looked up the data sheet on water, it says it is clear too. I guess those clouds to day were not water. What about fog? What color would you say fog was? Looks white. Fuel cloud, looks white. I have said no more, or less.

I know jet fuel in a jar seems to be clear like water, and what do you know, it the sky it is white like water under certain conditions, sort of like water. Clear, in sky like a cloud. Wow. Still wrong, but you are saying the right things you just can not say you are wrong. Certain conditions will let you say you are wrong, like be humble. But jet fuel looks like a cloud under certain conditions. You once said it was white. I have to tell you jet fuel as you finally found out is clear, but like water it looks white when it is found under certain conditions, no it does not have to be trough some tiny hole, we used a 4 inch nozzle, not a tiny hole. Try again.

Under certain condition jet fuel appears like a white cloud. Several times people have shown you jet fuel in a white cloud and I have described first hand the white cloud jet fuel can be. I have done it my self, and witnessed it from my buddies jet. I have reports of white clouds of fuel leaking from my wing from a fighter next to me, he drove me crazy and scared my crew. The crew was worried about the wing integrity with the leak. We could not see the leak on our gages. But the F-15 could see a big cloud of fuel leaving our jet, from the wing (our vent system had flooded. White, like a cloud. Now I have told you first hand I have made jet fuel make a white cloud, my buddy did it right next to me, and a jet fighter witnessed it, feet away from my jet.

Try again. Say yes, I know jet fuel can exist in a state that appears like cloud or fog. Then you can say you learned something today. Truthers need to get some humble pie and eat it too.

To tell you the truth, if you waste this much time messing up jet fuel, how can anyone take your ideas seriously?

Beachnut, tell me again how I've lost?You seem to be in the 9/11 truth movement. That was an easy question.

Are you trying to say the big fire ball explosion we saw on 9/11 was not JET fuel? You do understand Jet fuel contains more energy than gasoline?

[Swing Dangler]

Beach, answer me this question and stop avoiding it, the jetfuelA which is of course different that the military grade jet fuel you are experienced with, was it white at altitude or on the ground or below the ground? And why are you trying to compare military grade jet fuel with passenger jetfuel, anyway?
When you watched or put the jet fuel into the airplanes tanks, was it white or clear?

Under certain condition jet fuel appears like a white cloud.
Under what conditions, Beach? At altitude? I was shown how kerosene smoke machines can turn kerosene fuel white. On my own research, I've seen jetfuelA in white form at altitude as it was forced through a small nozzel under high pressure conditions, and even then it has something to do with the spectrum of light.

Beach, please explain why clouds or fog for that matter are white? Are they born white? Are they white like the background I'm typing in? I know the answer, I'm waiting to see how you will answer.

CHF, I think that the explosion in the basement was done to weaken the core in the attempt to help assist in the collapse. Whether it did or not, no one is really certain as we have no empirical evidence to examine and only the video footage of the day to rely upon.

I listed two possible suspects. I've already stated that I think individuals within the U.S. government assisted in this entire attack. I've also stated that American citizens have assisted in this attack. One citizen, although not involved with 9/11 to my knowledge, was assisting one of the possible suspects. I would suggest examining the 1993 attack and the FBI's involvement with that endeavor as a starting point for my suspicions.

Why would I try to argue sheer speculation at JREF, when only factually supported positions are accepted?

[DavidJames]

I listed two possible suspects. I've already stated that I think individuals within the U.S. government assisted in this entire attack. I've also stated that American citizens have assisted in this attack. One citizen, although not involved with 9/11 to my knowledge, was assisting one of the possible suspects. I would suggest examining the 1993 attack and the FBI's involvement with that endeavor as a starting point for my suspicions. I will ask you the same thing I ask all the CTists.

1. How would you like to be accused of complicity in mass murder with the same level of speculation and innuendo as you so easily accuse others? The darker side of me wishes you would become a victim of the someone like yourself, someone who anonymously accuses others of murder.

2. What are you going to do with your "evidence"? Are you going to hide behind the Internet and take pot shots and accuse innocent people of mass murder or are you going to be an adult and seek out the proper authorities to achieve justice?

Why would I try to argue sheer speculation at JREF, when only factually supported positions are accepted?Good question, why do you do it?

[twinstead]

Speaking of sheer speculation, how could anybody base an opinion of something on sheer speculation? The reason JREF deals with positions based on fact is because that's the ONLY way to really be sure of something.

There are people out there who base their entire world view on speculation and on things they suspect to exist, and nothing more; they are no less 'sheeple' than anybody else.

[CHF]

CHF, I think that the explosion in the basement was done to weaken the core in the attempt to help assist in the collapse. Whether it did or not, no one is really certain as we have no empirical evidence to examine and only the video footage of the day to rely upon.

I listed two possible suspects. I've already stated that I think individuals within the U.S. government assisted in this entire attack. I've also stated that American citizens have assisted in this attack. One citizen, although not involved with 9/11 to my knowledge, was assisting one of the possible suspects. I would suggest examining the 1993 attack and the FBI's involvement with that endeavor as a starting point for my suspicions.

Why would I try to argue sheer speculation at JREF, when only factually supported positions are accepted?

Hmmmm....

You apparently still won’t say how the US "assisted" the attack or explain who rigged up the towers.


Assuming that your SLC position is still held (that secret demolition squads rigged up the towers) I’ve pieced together your theory as follows:

- The US government sent demolition agents to rig up the WTC towers with bombs knowing that Al Qaeda would attempt an attack with hijacked planes

- Al Qaeda terrorists planted a bomb in the sub-levels of the North Tower as a back-up plan in case the hijacking doesn’t work

- On 9/11 Al Qaeda terrorists hijacked two planes and slamed them into the WTC towers

- The plane impact and resulting fires did not significantly damage the charges planted by US agents

- At almost the exact same time as the plane hits the North Tower, the back-up device was detonated in order to weaken the core and aid in a collapse that Al Qaeda wasn’t expecting

- An hour or so later the demolition charges were detonated resulting in a collapse from the impact zone

- Even though the Al Qaeda basement bomb weakened the core, part of the core remains briefly standing after the collapse

:confused:

That about cover it, Swing?

[uk_dave]

William Rodriguez:

4. I am in the No-fly list, I have been investigated, I have been vilified from BOTH sides and at the end, this is my mission, movement or not, to find out what really happened.

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=10411&st=0&#last

He must have used the Google driving directions to get to the UK for his recent tour.

[beachnut]

Beach, answer me this question and stop avoiding it, the jetfuelA which is of course different that the military grade jet fuel you are experienced with, was it white at altitude or on the ground or below the ground? And why are you trying to compare military grade jet fuel with passenger jetfuel, anyway?
When you watched or put the jet fuel into the airplanes tanks, was it white or clear?

Under what conditions, Beach? At altitude? I was shown how kerosene smoke machines can turn kerosene fuel white. On my own research, I've seen jetfuelA in white form at altitude as it was forced through a small nozzel under high pressure conditions, and even then it has something to do with the spectrum of light.

Beach, please explain why clouds or fog for that matter are white? Are they born white? Are they white like the background I'm typing in? I know the answer, I'm waiting to see how you will answer.


You are talking to a pilot with only 34 years of experience with flying and fuels. You made a mistake. I have flown and used JP4, JP5, JP8, JP7, JetA1 (and real live commercial jet fuel) (i have even used other fuels). Darn, they all make a cloud as I have said, over and over again. I have refueled my own jet (I have take fuel samples, there are sumps on all my tanks; your welcome). I have flown one jet which had JP7, JP4, and JetA1 all in a few days. The fuel the airliners use, gave me the best milage, JP5 was close. But they all fog up like a cloud, see for yourself. (exmaples of jet fuel, all kinds can be found making clouds, and even others have shown you fuels like the jet fuel on 9/11 can make a cloud many different ways)

http://www.sonnyradio.com/F15.wmv like a cloud, cool airplane.

Explain why clouds are white, god did it, water or fuel, blame god, or nature, I am sorry you need help, you believe in fiction, why not believe in nature. Nature is real, 9/11 truth is fiction. You need to change your mind. You are trying to make up stuff by twisting the evidence to fit your made up stories.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/faeanim.gif http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJAs_3MiV00

Clouds, they are real, your ideas on 9/11 are not real.

[notheist]

Wow looks looks like that F-15 was creating a very nice Chemtrail.

And Swing sure believes in chemtrails.

[Alt+F4]

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=10411&st=0&#last

He must have used the Google driving directions to get to the UK for his recent tour.

Yeah, and if he is on the "no fly list" how was he able to get to Venezuela last month?

[notheist]

This silly idea Swing has that only a certain type of jet fuel can explode is ridicules.

Just about anything that will burn can if vaporized or made into a fine enough dust will rapidly burn, aka explode. Even grain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_elevator
"An interesting problem the old elevators had was that of silo explosions. Fine powder from the millions of grains passing through the facility would accumulate and mix with the oxygen in the air. A spark could spread from one floating grain to the other creating a chain reaction that would destroy the entire structure. (This dispersed-fuel explosion is the mechanism behind fuel-air bombs.) To prevent this, elevators have very rigorous rules against smoking or any other open flame. Many elevators also have various devices installed to maximize ventilation, safeguards against overheating in belt conveyors, legs, bearing, and explosion-proof electrical devices such as electric motors, switches and lighting."

[notheist]

"please explain why clouds or fog for that matter are white? Are they born white? Are they white like the background I'm typing in? I know the answer, I'm waiting to see how you will answer."

The "whiteness" has nothing to do with what the vapor is made of but is the fact the tiny droplets of liquid or dust scatter the light reflected thru it. You can have a cloud of water vapor, or jet fuel vapor or paint thinner for that matter, and turpentine vapor will explode.

I imagine comparing JP7,jet fuel and JetA1 is like comparing premium gas to regular. Both will explode and burn with the same ferocity under same conditions.

But Swing has to create a controversy where there is none, Well because that is all he has. No real facts, No real logic, No real experts to back him up. Just a blind religious faith to the cause.