Does anyone else back up William Rodriguez's story?

[CHF]

As I understand it, William Rodriguez says that he felt an explosion before the plane hit and basically says there were bombs going off in the sub-levels.

Well that should be a fairly easy story to corroborate, since he wasn't the only person in that part of the building.

Does anyone else who was down there believe that bombs were going off? I haven't heard of any.

Did anyone suffer injuries from this "bomb" that were in-line with what one would expect from an explosive blast?

It would sure seem odd that bombs were detonating in the sub-levels ("for what purpose?" one wonders) and only Willy realized it.

[gumboot]

The simple answer is no.

-Gumboot

[Skeptic Guy]

Like Gumboot says...no.

[CHF]

Another silly question: do twoofers find this stunning lack of corroboration the least bit odd?

[gumboot]

Another silly question: do twoofers find this stunning lack of corroboration the least bit odd?


No.

The fact that no one collaborates it proves that everyone else has been paid off, which proves it was an inside job.

-Gumboot

[jhunter1163]

Our resident scientist, R. Mackey, has pointed out that vibrations travel about 15 times faster in steel than they do in air. So what Mr. Rodriguez claims, feeling the vibration below him BEFORE hearing the explosion, is exactly what one would expect to observe in this situation (vibrations arriving before sound waves).

This simple and logical explanation is, of course, utterly ignored by Twoofers. Their whole construct is a bunch of coincidences, irrelevant factoids, misinterpretations, erroneous early reports, quote mining, and a liberal sprinkling of outright lies. Mix thoroughly, bake for five years, and presto! A movement!

Of some kind.

[Mobyseven]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo !

[gumboot]

Our resident scientist, R. Mackey, has pointed out that vibrations travel about 15 times faster in steel than they do in air. So what Mr. Rodriguez claims, feeling the vibration below him BEFORE hearing the explosion, is exactly what one would expect to observe in this situation (vibrations arriving before sound waves).

This simple and logical explanation is, of course, utterly ignored by Twoofers. Their whole construct is a bunch of coincidences, irrelevant factoids, misinterpretations, erroneous early reports, quote mining, and a liberal sprinkling of outright lies. Mix thoroughly, bake for five years, and presto! A movement!

Of some kind.



The steel vibration theory isn't even actually necessary. We have only Mr Rodriguez's word that the second noise he heard was the aircraft impact, and given he was in an office in the basement, his opinion on this matter is worthless.

Other survivors who were much closer to the impact report feeling the impact, but not hearing it.

I think the most logical explanation is that the second sound he heard was not the impact at all, but something else. I propose that it was fuel exploding out of another elevator shaft somewhere on a floor above him, possibly the lobby.

-Gumboot

[Alzke]

xxx.youtube.com/watch?v=QlEXoY1HCWI

Peter Jennings interviews a carpenter who was in a freight elevator which was blown apart at the basement levels

and the testimony of another basement dweller

(8:47 a.m.-9:50 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Engineer Finds Major Damage in Basement and Lobby of North Tower
Mike Pecoraro. [Source: Chief Engineer]Mike Pecoraro, an engineer who is part of the crew that services the WTC complex, is at work in the mechanical shop in the second subbasement of the north WTC tower when it is hit. When the room he is in starts filling with white smoke and he can smell kerosene (jet fuel), he heads up stairs with a co-worker towards a small machine shop on the C level. Yet, he says, “There was nothing there but rubble. We’re talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press—gone!” He then heads for the parking garage, yet finds that “there were no walls, there was rubble on the floor, and you can’t see anything.” He ascends to the B level where he sees a 300-pound steel and concrete fire door, which is lying on the floor, wrinkled up “like a piece of aluminum foil.”

[Alzke]

btw I'm agnostic on the CD theories. It's just hard for me to understand how jet fuel from the impact zone so many floors above could cause such massive damage as described ?

[uk_dave]

Cool, a steel and concrete fire door!

I wonder what the rating on that was....... 10 years?:D

[3bodyproblem]

btw I'm agnostic on the CD theories. It's just hard for me to understand how jet fuel from the impact zone so many floors above could cause such massive damage as described ?

rapid expansion of a combustible in a confined space

a 50 ton(tonne?) hydraulic press isn't as big as you think, i'm guessing this is the confusion. it confused me at first.

[gumboot]

btw I'm agnostic on the CD theories. It's just hard for me to understand how jet fuel from the impact zone so many floors above could cause such massive damage as described ?


When the aircraft hit the buildings they ruptured the elevator shafts, spilling jet fuel down them. As this jet fuel mixes with the air and is exposed to heat it ignites explosively. This is called a Fuel Air Explosive (FAE). FAE's create enormous overpressure that can literally turn a person to jelly.

The injuries described by people caught in these blasts are consistent with a FAE. They are not consistent with high explosives.

-Gumboot

[boloboffin]

The steel vibration theory isn't even actually necessary. We have only Mr Rodriguez's word that the second noise he heard was the aircraft impact, and given he was in an office in the basement, his opinion on this matter is worthless.

Other survivors who were much closer to the impact report feeling the impact, but not hearing it.

I think the most logical explanation is that the second sound he heard was not the impact at all, but something else. I propose that it was fuel exploding out of another elevator shaft somewhere on a floor above him, possibly the lobby.

-Gumboot

See, this is exactly why I love this board. That's the best explanation I've heard yet. What it was we may never know. Memory plays tricks on people for a variety of reasons, especially when people are trying to make sense of a confusing situation, and then going back over it later in their mind (Norman Mineta, anyone?).

You don't happen to have the names of those above-Rodriguez witnesses, do you? If they're not handy, they are probably in Gravy's PDF.

[R.Mackey]

btw I'm agnostic on the CD theories. It's just hard for me to understand how jet fuel from the impact zone so many floors above could cause such massive damage as described ?

Kilo for kilo, Avgas contains over ten times the stored chemical energy of TNT. And there were over 25,000 kg of fuel in each crash. That's why.

[Travis]

Also keep in mind that the service elevator fell from the 40th floor and probably hit bottom a few seconds before the arrival of the jet fuel fireball. It's possible he heard or felt the elevator hit bottom and then heard the fuel explosion coming down from above.

Just speculation.

[gumboot]

See, this is exactly why I love this board. That's the best explanation I've heard yet. What it was we may never know. Memory plays tricks on people for a variety of reasons, especially when people are trying to make sense of a confusing situation, and then going back over it later in their mind (Norman Mineta, anyone?).

You don't happen to have the names of those above-Rodriguez witnesses, do you? If they're not handy, they are probably in Gravy's PDF.


This post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1907291&postcount=40) is probably a good starting point.

-Gumboot

[ref]

The burn victim coming from the elevator, Felipe David, allegedly also states something coming from below. Another survivor, Salvatore Giambanco thinks it was a bomb.

http://www.arcticbeacon.com/articles/13-Jul-2005.html

That day I was in the basement in sub-level 1 sometime after 8:30am. Everything happened so fast, everything moved so fast. The building started shaking after I heard the explosion below, dust was flying everywhere and all of a sudden it got real hot.

I threw myself onto the floor, covered my face because I felt like I was burned. I sat there for a couple of seconds on the floor and felt like I was going to die, saying to myself 'God, please give me strength.'"

Although severely burned on his face, arms and hands with skin hanging from his body like pieces of cloth, David picked himself up, running for help to the office were Rodriguez and others were gathered.

"When I went in, I told them it was an explosion," said David


Another survivor, Salvatore Giambanco, speaks of a bomb.


"We heard the explosion and the smoke all of a sudden came from all over. There was an incredible force of wind that also swept everything away. I remember hearing a scream of a woman, but I couldn't see her. I had just gotten off the elevator and I was standing by it with another man but didn't know his name.

"The doors of the elevator were still open and, I don't know why we did, but we both jumped back in maybe because of the wind whipping everything around in the hallway. "Then, suddenly, the elevator doors closed in front of us and we started going down. It all of a sudden stopped and I could see through the cracks we were between B-2 and B-3. We were both screaming and afraid. I remember seeing through the slot of the elevator and seeing other people running and screaming.

"Then water started gushing in the elevator and I remember saying, 'God, please help us.' At that point, I was resigned to the fact I was going to die

...

Reflecting back on his 9/11 near death experience, he added:

"I remember riding in the ambulance that morning and looking back, thinking it had to be a bomb.

"Later they told me it was an airplane that hit the towers, but how could it just be an airplane? I know all the newspapers were saying that, but it was just too incredible to believe if you heard and experienced what I did. It had to be a bomb."

[uk_dave]

"Later they told me it was an airplane that hit the towers, but how could it just be an airplane? I know all the newspapers were saying that, but it was just too incredible to believe if you heard and experienced what I did. It had to be a bomb."

Translation: "Though I'm not an expert in such things, my initial thought was that it was a bomb. I mean, the towers had been targeted before, right? And I didn't know at the time that a plane had hit, so to my mind it was anther bomb attack on the tower. Of course people tried to tell me afterwards that it was the impact of the plane and the jet fuel, but, you know, I kinda made my mind up there and then that a bomb had exploded and...well, like I said, I'm not an expert in these things, but it's hard for me to change my mind about this."

[ref]

One more, which actually only confirms the fire ball, rather than a bomb. This one by Jose Sanchez:

http://www.populistamerica.com/the_ghosts_of_9_11

Nobody has yet addressed the huge explosion that occurred right before the first plane hits as confirmed by Jose Sanchez (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0814798489?ie=UTF8&tag=populistparty-20&link_code=em1&camp=212341&creative=380621&creativeASIN=0814798489&adid=df41a294-1d57-4d6a-baf8-77c56466bf5e), who worked 14 years for the American Building Maintenance Co. at the WTC. He confirmed details of a basement bomb-like explosion while Rodriguez and two CNN interns, Carolina Inojosa and Evita Zerebrinsky, interviewed victims and documented information for many people having trouble getting needed government assistance after 9/11.

In the 2002 taped statement, Sanchez recalls, "It sounded like a bomb and the lights went on and off. We started to walk to the exit and a huge ball of fire went through the freight elevator. The hot air from the ball of fire dropped Chino to the floor and my hair got burned. I said 'Chino, let's go we gotta get out of here.' But Chino was wounded and told me he needed help. I remember him saying that the hot air came with such force that it broke his leg. We finally went out through another exit and his leg and knee were both broken." Sanchez helped Chino to a parking lot where Chino was driven to help.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Kilo for kilo, Avgas contains over ten times the stored chemical energy of TNT. And there were over 25,000 kg of fuel in each crash. That's why.

I asked a firefighter how hot your basic house fire can get and he told me they often reach 1700 degrees.

This is just your basic "cigarette butt dropped on the couch" scenario. No jet airliner impacts involved.

Thanks to the "cubicle farm" floorplans of modern offices, (most people don't design their living rooms to squeeze in as many wage slaves as possible to maximize the returns on their overhead) you can find all the fuels from a regular house fire (furniture, electronic items, fabrics, miscellaneous plastics, etc...) in much denser concentrations.

[gumboot]

You'd probably find an office building is also more likely to have stuff made out of synthetic material, while someone at home is more likely to have a real wool carpet and real wooden furniture. Etc.

-Gumboot

[ref]

It seems, that those three stories I posted above are the most commonly used quotes to back up William Rodriguez's story.

A recap:

One spoke of an explosion and something coming from below. He got burn injuries.

One spoke of an explosion, smoke and wind, and thought it had to be a bomb. He had no injuries.

One spoke of something that sounded like a bomb. Saw a huge ball of fire, felt hot air and his hair got burned.


I would say, not much of a case speaking for a bomb. Very much case for a fireball in the shaft.

[Travis]

Here is an account of the elevator fall preceding the fuel explosion.

"I got off [the elevator], turned the corner and opened the door to the ladies' room. I said good morning to a lady sitting at a mirror when the whole building shook. I thought it was an earthquake. Then I heard those banging noises on the other side of the wall. It sounded like someone had cut the elevator cables. It just fell and fell and fell.

I began to cry. "Oh, my God, I just got off that elevator!" I said. "That could have been me." I prayed those other people had gotten off on the 48th floor before the elevator dropped. But I didn't have much time to be upset because the building shook again, this time even more violently. The lady at the mirror grabbed onto me and held on for dear life."

Also there is this:

I saw a couple of elevators in free fall; you could hear them whizzing down and as they crashed, there was this huge explosion...

Anyway it works out there are many rational, non bomb related, scenarios that could account for what Mr. Rodriguez says he experienced.

[uk_dave]

I thought it was an earthquake. Then I heard those banging noises on the other side of the wall. It sounded like someone had cut the elevator cables.

So, by 'truther' logic what actually happened was NYC experienced an earthquake localised at the WTC site while simultaneously someone was hacking through the elevator cables in the tower.

And of course we also know that a train fell through the towers and that there was an invisible thunderstorm raging there at the time.

[MikeW]

Here's a report from someone who I believe also helped Felipe David. Although if he did then Rodriguez seems to have airbrushed him from history:

Kenneth Johannemann
36, janitor at 1 World Trade Center
My shift is 8 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. I'm always on time, but today I got lucky because I went on the 30th floor to get a cup of coffee. If I hadn't gotten that cup of coffee, I would have gotten blown up on the elevator. I was waiting by the elevator to go do the restrooms, and then there was a big bang, and the whole building shook. The elevator door flew open, and a guy stumbled out, and he was badly burned up. It seemed like he was smoldering, almost.
He was a delivery guy. The skin from his wrist was hanging down past his fingertips. He was screaming all sorts of things like, "Bombing! Please get me out of here! I'm going to die!" I took him down the hallway right around the corner to my supervisor's office. Me and another janitor grabbed the man and took him outside, one on each arm. There was an EMS truck already outside, and those guys just grabbed him and pushed us aside. I wish I knew what happened to him, but I have no idea. He was burned up bad but he was still alive. I really hope he survived.
http://web.archive.org/web/20010914225325/http://people.aol.com/people/special/0,11859,174555-3,00.html

[ref]

Here's a report from someone who I believe also helped Felipe David. Although if he did then Rodriguez seems to have airbrushed him from history:

Thanks for that, Mike. I had never heard of that one.

[ref]

There is a Youtube video of him. I just can't watch it at work. What happens there, anyone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMkyLLlowA8

[MikeW]

There is a Youtube video of him. I just can't watch it at work. What happens there, anyone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMkyLLlowA8
First he's talking about seeing the second plane hit, I think, then seeing lots of people jumping, knowing they were still alive because he could see them flailing.

Then there's a quick recap of the above story. "The elevator blew up, smoke, I dragged the man out, took him to the ambulance". That's right at the end when he wants to go so he's abbreviating it, I think. I'd go with the print version above for the fullest account.

[ref]

First he's talking about seeing the second plane hit, I think, then seeing lots of people jumping, knowing they were still alive because he could see them flailing.

Then there's a quick recap of the above story. "The elevator blew up, smoke, I dragged the man out, took him to the ambulance". That's right at the end when he wants to go so he's abbreviating it, I think. I'd go with the print version above for the fullest account.

Ok, thanks :)

[Travis]

Speaking of the elevators falling. Has there ever been an investigation into why these elevators fell? Aren't there supposed to be safety breaks that would prevent them from falling in a catastrophic event, like their cables being severed as they were on 9/11?

I mean it would, in this case, be moot as anyone in them would have been killed by the fireball, but it seems this could have implications for skyscraper safety in general. I don't recall there being anything about the elevator fall cause in the NIST report but I could be wrong as there was a heck of a lot of material to cover.

[MG1962]

Speaking of the elevators falling. Has there ever been an investigation into why these elevators fell? Aren't there supposed to be safety breaks that would prevent them from falling in a catastrophic event, like their cables being severed as they were on 9/11?


Thinking out aloud, I suspect the problem was the elevator may have been blown of it's tracks by the force of the impact. The footage I have seen from the lobby of the Tower Two shows a great deal of stress damage to the walls etc. The speed governor probably tripped, but the break clamps had nothing to get hold off

[Spins]

btw I'm agnostic on the CD theories. It's just hard for me to understand how jet fuel from the impact zone so many floors above could cause such massive damage as described ?It amazes me how so many conspiracy theorists find it difficult to understand such simple concepts. It's as if their brains are incapable of figuring out things that happen in the world without someone explaining it to them.

I'm willing to bet that most conspiracy theorists assume the jet fuel just fell down the elevator shaft then got ignited when in reality a jet fuel fire ball exploded down the elevator shaft in exactly the same way the fire ball exited the South Tower when the second plane hit. In this case though because of the confined space of the elevator shaft the explosion would have been much more violent.

It's akin to the beams imbedded into the Bankers Trust Building etc, the answer is so simple yet for some bizarre reason they seem incapable of thinking beyond bombs and "inside job".

[Panoply_Prefect]

Do I remember incorrectly, or didn't mr. Rodriguez statement change from his initial?

/S

[ref]

Do I remember incorrectly, or didn't mr. Rodriguez statement change from his initial?

/S

At first he said he heard rumble, like furniture being moved. Later he changed that to explosions, which even threw him up in the air. That would be some violent furniture moving.

[Mancman]

Speaking of the elevators falling. Has there ever been an investigation into why these elevators fell? Aren't there supposed to be safety breaks that would prevent them from falling in a catastrophic event, like their cables being severed as they were on 9/11?

I mean it would, in this case, be moot as anyone in them would have been killed by the fireball, but it seems this could have implications for skyscraper safety in general. I don't recall there being anything about the elevator fall cause in the NIST report but I could be wrong as there was a heck of a lot of material to cover.

There are a couple of accounts of elevators freefalling from the 78th floor of one of the towers, they stopped a few feet above the lobby and there were survivors.

[gumboot]

Speaking of the elevators falling. Has there ever been an investigation into why these elevators fell? Aren't there supposed to be safety breaks that would prevent them from falling in a catastrophic event, like their cables being severed as they were on 9/11?



There's different types of arresting systems, but I think the thing is the breaks don't kick in immediately - I don't know how the breaks know to trigger, but I suppose it could be if the elevator reaches above a certain speed... I dunno.

Certainly they can't stop the elevator straight away or those inside will be smeared all over the floor.

-Gumboot

[The Doc]

As far as I know, the only person to corroborate one of Rodriguez's claims was Scott Forbes. However, Rodriguez claimed a power-outage covered the entire complex, where as Scott Forbes only claimed the building was out of power on the top 50 floors of WTC2. Even so, no one in NYC has reported anything similar to either of the two men.

There is however, several explanations for Rodriguez's observations. Particularly to note is his "No one could access the 34th floor" claim, which I believe Gravy will refute in his upcoming paper, so I will not steal the thunder ;)

[Stankeye]

I don't understand why they needed to blow up the basement areas when the planes hit if the CD was going to be from the impact area down.

My script is like this though. The evil -insert group- was robbing the vaults in the basement and needed a diversionary explosion to go off at the same time as thier explosions to open the vault. I win in conspiracy theory 101.

[Mr. Skinny]

There's different types of arresting systems, but I think the thing is the breaks don't kick in immediately - I don't know how the breaks know to trigger, but I suppose it could be if the elevator reaches above a certain speed... I dunno.

Certainly they can't stop the elevator straight away or those inside will be smeared all over the floor.

-Gumboot
Gumboot, you can read about elevator safety system here: http://science.howstuffworks.com/elevator4.htm

Hope this helps!

[pomeroo]

btw I'm agnostic on the CD theories. It's just hard for me to understand how jet fuel from the impact zone so many floors above could cause such massive damage as described ?



No, you're not "agnostic" at all. When people claim that they're undecided about utter nonsense, they mean that they believe it.

[Mr.Herbert]

Do I remember incorrectly, or didn't mr. Rodriguez statement change from his initial?

/S

Yes this is true.. Willie gave an interview to CNN on September 12th 2001.

In part:

William Rodriguez worked on the basement level of the north tower and was in the building when the first plane struck his building.
"We heard a loud rumble, then all of a sudden we heard another rumble like someone moving a whole lot of furniture," Rodriguez said. "And then the elevator opened and a man came into our office and all of his skin was off."

I can't post URL's yet:

archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/11/new.york.terror/

[A W Smith]

I can remember reading somewhere about an elevator in the empire state building failing. something about it falling fast enough to float objects or people in it. Was it here at jref? a link anbody?

[gumboot]

I can remember reading somewhere about an elevator in the empire state building failing. something about it falling fast enough to float objects or people in it. Was it here at jref? a link anbody?



That would be when the B-25 hit the building - they loaded someone inot an elevator and all the cables snapped. It's the world record for the highest survived free fall in an elevator by a human.

Both the elevator and the person would be falling at 9.8ms2 so I guess they would appear to float relative to the elevator car. :)

-Gumboot

[Travis]

That would be when the B-25 hit the building - they loaded someone inot an elevator and all the cables snapped. It's the world record for the highest survived free fall in an elevator by a human.

Both the elevator and the person would be falling at 9.8ms2 so I guess they would appear to float relative to the elevator car. :)

-Gumboot

If that were me I'd need a new pair of pants afterwards.:D

I seem to recall NIST mentioning that after the 1993 bombing the emergency power supply to the elevators were relocated to the top of the buildings.

Talk about tragic fate.

[volatile]

That would be when the B-25 hit the building - they loaded someone inot an elevator and all the cables snapped. It's the world record for the highest survived free fall in an elevator by a human.

Both the elevator and the person would be falling at 9.8ms2 so I guess they would appear to float relative to the elevator car. :)

-Gumboot

Mythbusters covered this in quite some detail in Season 2, Episode 2... (video here (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkdja_mythbusters-2x02))

[FramerDave]

a 50 ton(tonne?) hydraulic press isn't as big as you think, i'm guessing this is the confusion. it confused me at first.

Part of the confusion is the fact that the 50 ton part of it describes the amount of pressure it can produce, not the weight of the machine itself. It was most likely significantly less.

Someone may have mentioned this, but I didn't read every post.

[The Demon's Head]

No.

The fact that no one collaborates it proves that everyone else has been paid off, which proves it was an inside job.

-Gumboot

Isn't that what the truth group's theories are based on?

[gumboot]

Isn't that what the truth group's theories are based on?


Pretty much.

-Gumboot

[water_bender]

marlene cruz, hursley lever, arthur del bianco, arturo griffin, and port authority transcript 49. thre are several other port authority transcripts that coorberate rodriguez as well, but i am not 100% on which of the 50 other than number 49

[MIKILLINI]

A 50-ton press is not large by any means. It would weigh about as much as the 300 lb. fire door, if not a little more.

This would be a good example; http://www2.northerntool.com/product-1/475.htm

[LashL]

marlene cruz, hursley lever, arthur del bianco, arturo griffin, and port authority transcript 49. thre are several other port authority transcripts that coorberate rodriguez as well, but i am not 100% on which of the 50 other than number 49

None of Ms. Cruz, Mr. Lever, Mr. Delbianco, or Mr. Griffith (not "Griffin") say that there were bombs or explosives emanating from the sub-basement levels, nor do any of them say that there were explosions prior to the airplane hitting the tower.

Ms. Cruz was in the elevator with Mr. Griffith. Both she and Mr. Griffith describe fire coming down the elevator shaft after the elevator fell several floors. Neither describes any explosions occurring prior to the airplane striking the tower, nor do they describe any explosions coming from below.

Mr. Delbianco was around the 70th floor when the airplane struck. He subsequently went down to the basement levels. He describes no explosions prior to the airplane striking the tower, nor does he describe any explosions coming from below.

Mr. Hursley was in the B4 level when the airplane struck, and thought that a transformer had blown up; subsequently, he encountered a "big ball of fire" which is consistent with the other accounts. He describes no explosions prior to the airplane striking the tower, nor does he describe any explosions coming from below.

Kindly provide a link to the Port Authority transcripts that you are talking about.

[uk_dave]

bump

Kindly provide a link to the Port Authority transcripts that you are talking about.

[LashL]

I just noticed an error in my prior post, but as it is too late to edit, I will post the correction here.

In the penultimate paragraph, I wrote, "Mr. Hursley" when I should have written "Mr. Lever". I had it right in the first paragraph, but for some unknown reason, transposed his first name and last name in the later reference.

[Undesired Walrus]

btw I'm agnostic on the CD theories.

Hello you!:rolleyes:

[PhantomWolf]

btw I'm agnostic on the CD theories. It's just hard for me to understand how jet fuel from the impact zone so many floors above could cause such massive damage as described ?

Here's a gif of a BLU-96 FAE (http://www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/clmf/faeseq.html), it's only 2,000lb. A 767 with half full tanks has somewhere in the range of 80,000 pounds of fuel.

[WildCat]

I'm willing to bet that most conspiracy theorists assume the jet fuel just fell down the elevator shaft then got ignited when in reality a jet fuel fire ball exploded down the elevator shaft in exactly the same way the fire ball exited the South Tower when the second plane hit.
Actually, I think it did spill down the shaft and ignite a few seconds later. NIST estimates that 1/3 of the fuel burned in the initial fireball (because the oxygen immediately available was soon depleted), leaving the rest to flow where it may and burn later.

[Swing Dangler]

Well a cave in a B-4 and the PATH plaza support Willie's statements. Not only that, a destroyed machine shop as well as a parking garage confirm it as well. Lets not forget destroyed and cracked walls as well.
Now is it not strange that a fireball traveling that far down a single shaft doesn't destroy floors,walls and shafts all the way down?

Common sense and logic will tell you that a fireball did not create the damage in the sublevels as far down as B-4. Arthuro Griffith the operator of the only elevator whose shaft reached the impact floors to the lowest part of the basement where massive damage was witnesses suffered no injuries from a fireball while in his elevator. If the fireball myth were true, he would be dead.

[LashL]

Well a cave in a B-4 and the PATH plaza support Willie's statements.
Source: Port Authority transcripts.

You'll have to be much more specific, SwingDangler.

I.e. What is this "cave in a B-4" of which you speak? How does the "PATH plaza support [Rodriguez's] statements"? And which portion of the Port Authority transcripts are you referring to?

[CHF]

Well a cave in a B-4 and the PATH plaza support Willie's statements.
Source: Port Authority transcripts.

You gonna feed that paper of yours to the lions, Swing? :D

[Swing Dangler]

You gonna feed that paper of yours to the lions, Swing? :D

Almost ready, bro! Good to see you. Do you know what the limit is on a post length?

Does anyone know if there is a source out there that can confirm the presence of 9 firefighters in B-4 level shortly after the first impact? I've searched all of the Time's FF transcripts and I can't find any comments that support 9 FF that didn't have flashlights and left a person scared ******** in the dark.

[Gravy]

Well a cave in a B-4 and the PATH plaza support Willie's statements. Not only that, a destroyed machine shop as well as a parking garage confirm it as well. Lets not forget destroyed and cracked walls as well.
Now is it not strange that a fireball traveling that far down a single shaft doesn't destroy floors,walls and shafts all the way down?

Common sense and logic will tell you that a fireball did not create the damage in the sublevels as far down as B-4. Arthuro Griffith the operator of the only elevator whose shaft reached the impact floors to the lowest part of the basement where massive damage was witnesses suffered no injuries from a fireball while in his elevator. If the fireball myth were true, he would be dead.As usual, you're missing something very big. Can you guess what it is? Perhaps you should read this (http://911stories.googlepages.com/home). All you need to know is there. You can do this. Okay, maybe you can't, but I'm an optimist.

P.S. If you doubt what Arturo Griffith and the others in the basement experienced, why don't you contact them? Will you? Yes or no?

[Swing Dangler]

You'll have to be much more specific, SwingDangler.

I.e. What is this "cave in a B-4" of which you speak? How does the "PATH plaza support [Rodriguez's] statements"? And which portion of the Port Authority transcripts are you referring to?

The events below took place prior to either collapse and after the explosion heard in the basement. This damage is inconsistent with a fireball. I do not have any figures, but I doubt the energy of the fireball could cause such destruction, hence the explosive device.
-----
PA 010 transcript.
PAPD Officer 33 responding to a Cave in at B-4
a. Location: Traveling to sub-level B-4, WTC North Tower
b. “Myself and (inaudible) to the Trade Center responding with scott packs to the B-4 Level. There’s a report of a cave-in and people trapped.”
c. PAPD Desk-“Roger, three three and eight-two Houston, World Trade responding B-4 level on a report of a cave in.
d. Officer 33- “There’s also been a cave-in at the platform of the PATH plaza…there’s a live electrical, and water running. Turn off the power in that area.
e. PAPD Desk reports to other responders-“Three-three is reporting that
there is a cave in, B-4 level, at the World Trade Center, copy? A possibility of people trapped."
---
Male caller to 310B Fire Command Radio Channel X-Security
a. Location-Near or on the Path Train
b. “Please let me get through! The PATH train, something is going on at the PATH train! Can you ask somebody to make an announcement, 310B, people are running out of the PATH train, copy!
c. Male-“Ten-four. (Inaudible) to 63.” Female-“Yes.
d. Male-“See if you can make an announcement with PAPD with regards to people panicking in the PATH trains! Female-“That’s people by the PATH train, copy.”
PA transcript 048

[CHF]

P.S. If you doubt what Arturo Griffith and the others in the basement experienced, why don't you contact them? Will you? Yes or no?

He might. But only if you find the contact info for him.

[Quad4_72]

The twoofers stand behind his story...does that count? Then again they will stand behind anything that has to do with a CT....

[Unsecured Coins]

you got a link to that? It would help a bit

[Quad4_72]

The events below took place prior to either collapse and after the explosion heard in the basement. This damage is inconsistent with a fireball. I do not have any figures, but I doubt the energy of the fireball could cause such destruction, hence the explosive device.
-----


You don't have any figures is correct. You say that you doubt the energy of the fireball could cause the destruction. What is that based on? You don't have figures, so is it personal opinion? What qualifies you to make a credible opinion?

[Gravy]

The events below took place prior to either collapse and after the explosion heard in the basement. This damage is inconsistent with a fireball. I do not have any figures, but I doubt the energy of the fireball could cause such destruction, hence the explosive device.
-----
PA 010 transcript.
PAPD Officer 33 responding to a Cave in at B-4
a. Location: Traveling to sub-level B-4, WTC North Tower
b. “Myself and (inaudible) to the Trade Center responding with scott packs to the B-4 Level. There’s a report of a cave-in and people trapped.”
c. PAPD Desk-“Roger, three three and eight-two Houston, World Trade responding B-4 level on a report of a cave in.
d. Officer 33- “There’s also been a cave-in at the platform of the PATH plaza…there’s a live electrical, and water running. Turn off the power in that area.
e. PAPD Desk reports to other responders-“Three-three is reporting that
there is a cave in, B-4 level, at the World Trade Center, copy? A possibility of people trapped."
---
Male caller to 310B Fire Command Radio Channel X-Security
a. Location-Near or on the Path Train
b. “Please let me get through! The PATH train, something is going on at the PATH train! Can you ask somebody to make an announcement, 310B, people are running out of the PATH train, copy!
c. Male-“Ten-four. (Inaudible) to 63.” Female-“Yes.
d. Male-“See if you can make an announcement with PAPD with regards to people panicking in the PATH trains! Female-“That’s people by the PATH train, copy.”
PA transcript 048There was a partial collapse in the concourse after the south tower was hit, which trapped Will Jimeno, John McLoughlin & Co. A fireball accompanied the collapse. For the blast on the B4 level, read my Rodriguez paper, particularly Ed McCabe's account, who describes it happening about 30 seconds after he noticed the movement of the building. And note the damage there across the hall from the #50 elevator.

I'm quite eager to hear your explanation of where the high explosives were that you posit, and how your theory accounts for the witness stories, damage, and fireballs. Can't wait.

Edit: Oh, and people were panicking in and near the PATH trains because of all the kerosene smoke that came down the shafts. You can read about that...ah, you know where.

(I also STRONGLY suggest that you read the south tower accounts.)

[LashL]

The events below took place prior to either collapse and after the explosion heard in the basement. This damage is inconsistent with a fireball. I do not have any figures, but I doubt the energy of the fireball could cause such destruction, hence the explosive device.
-----
PA 010 transcript.
PAPD Officer 33 responding to a Cave in at B-4
a. Location: Traveling to sub-level B-4, WTC North Tower
b. “Myself and (inaudible) to the Trade Center responding with scott packs to the B-4 Level. There’s a report of a cave-in and people trapped.”
c. PAPD Desk-“Roger, three three and eight-two Houston, World Trade responding B-4 level on a report of a cave in.
d. Officer 33- “There’s also been a cave-in at the platform of the PATH plaza…there’s a live electrical, and water running. Turn off the power in that area.
e. PAPD Desk reports to other responders-“Three-three is reporting that
there is a cave in, B-4 level, at the World Trade Center, copy? A possibility of people trapped."
---
Male caller to 310B Fire Command Radio Channel X-Security
a. Location-Near or on the Path Train
b. “Please let me get through! The PATH train, something is going on at the PATH train! Can you ask somebody to make an announcement, 310B, people are running out of the PATH train, copy!
c. Male-“Ten-four. (Inaudible) to 63.” Female-“Yes.
d. Male-“See if you can make an announcement with PAPD with regards to people panicking in the PATH trains! Female-“That’s people by the PATH train, copy.”
PA transcript 048

Oh, I see. Your typos and grammatical errors made it difficult to comprehend what you were talking about when you mentioned a "cave in a B-4" and the "PATH plaza supports [Rodriguez's] statements."

I see now that you are talking about a report of a "cave-in" at the B-4 level and I will look at the transcripts, but how do you think a report of a cave-in supports Rodriguez's (belated) assertions about explosions occurring prior to the airplane striking the north tower and of explosions coming from below his location?

And how does a report of people running from a PATH train support Rodriguez's (belated) assertions of explosions occurring prior to the plane impact and from below his location?

[Swing Dangler]

Gravy, thankyou for the research you have done. I thanked you first at SLC but you must have missed it.

Second in regards to your paper you have this in Arthuro's account.:

'I don't know who saved me. It was so black and smoky. I couldn't see nothin',' Arturo said. 'When they got me out, I told them there was someone else down there, a woman. They went back to get her. Seconds after they pulled her out, a ball of fire came down the shaft. They almost got killed.'
911digitalarchiveorgseiudetails55

I had to change the link format that you have in your paper at the end of the quote because the forum won't let me post URL's because I'm a noob.

The link takes the reader to Daria Coard who discusses getting off the elevator on the 88th floor right after impact and then the elevator falls.
She then makes her way down to the ground using the stairways. When finally able to exit the building, there was an explosion that threw Daria under a jeep. 'Bodies were dropping everywhere. Me and someone else saw a shoe under a piece of a car. So we lifted it up. And there was a leg with nothing else attached to it. There were strollers with babies in them turned on their side. I saw a rescue worker with his arm and shoulder blown off. He was screaming and running, and the policemen were trying to stop him to help him. I at first thought this explosion at ground level was the second impact, but she continues to see bodies dropping and people jumping and human damage. Also, could the second impact that far up cause her to be knocked under a jeep? I thought it might have been a collapse causing the explosion, but she mentions no collapse. Nor does she state how long it took to get to the ground from the 88th floor via the stairwell which brings the whole second impact into question. Could she be another victim of an explosive device at ground level?

Well anyway to make a long story short, I was wondering, Gravy, why you have that link with Arturo's description or was it an error?
Thanks for any response.

[Swing Dangler]

I see now that you are talking about a report of a "cave-in" at the B-4 level and I will look at the transcripts, but how do you think a report of a cave-in supports Rodriguez's (belated) assertions about explosions occurring prior to the airplane striking the north tower and of explosions coming from below his location?
And how does a report of people running from a PATH train support Rodriguez's (belated) assertions of explosions occurring prior to the plane impact and from below his location?

I'm not arguing William's timing of impacts. I'm arguing that an explosive device was used by terrorists in the basement of WTC North Tower.

[CHF]

I'm not arguing William's timing of impacts. I'm arguing that an explosive device was used by terrorists in the basement of WTC North Tower.

And by "terrorists" Swing means "US government demolition squads."

It's ok, dude...you can say it.

[Slayhamlet]

And by "terrorists" Swing means "US government demolition squads."

It's ok, dude...you can say it.

Don't leave out Israeli Mossad!

[Swing Dangler]

You don't have any figures is correct. You say that you doubt the energy of the fireball could cause the destruction. What is that based on? You don't have figures, so is it personal opinion? What qualifies you to make a credible opinion?

Sorry for the confusion, yes, a personal opinion.

Actually, I was hoping to find some figures here supporting the contention that a fireball reached the b-4 levels to cause the ammount and type of destruction to the structure and the people after ignition upon impact.

Gravy, I did read Ed's account. He was told unignited fuel traveled down the elevator shaft and a spark ignited it. However, he witnesses a door being blown off, destroyed walls, and debris, but no fireball or secondary fires. The secretaries he comes into contact with state a bomb blew up in their office.

Sorry, I can't post links yet because I'm a noob.

[Swing Dangler]

Actually CHF, I have no idea or evidence of who would have placed an explosive device in the sublevels of WTC: North Tower.

But your attempt to distract the topic at hand is noted.

[Quad4_72]

Actually CHF, I have no idea or evidence of who would have placed an explosive device in the sublevels of WTC: North Tower.

But your attempt to distract the topic at hand is noted.

Out of curiosity, do you believe that there was an explosion in the basement of the towers? If so, what purpose did it serve in the collapse of the towers, seeing as how they fell from the top down?

[Unsecured Coins]

Actually CHF, I have no idea or evidence of who would have placed an explosive device in the sublevels of WTC: North Tower.

If anything, I applaud your up-frontness. At least you admit you have a bucket of yuck when it comes to your claim, instead of screaming "IT'S OUT THERE" like every other truther out there

[Quad4_72]

Sorry for the confusion, yes, a personal opinion.

Actually, I was hoping to find some figures here supporting the contention that a fireball reached the b-4 levels to cause the ammount and type of destruction to the structure and the people after ignition upon impact.


Ah so you want to SEE figures. Why then have you formed an opinion before seeing any figures? Does that seem rational?

[CHF]

Actually CHF, I have no idea or evidence of who would have placed an explosive device in the sublevels of WTC: North Tower.

But your attempt to distract the topic at hand is noted.

Oh come on now, Swing. You're a MIHOP demolition believer. Be proud of who you are!

Given that you think the towers were demolitions done with pre-planted bombs and thermite, are you suggesting that perhaps the US government (with bombs) and jihadi terrorists (planes and an explosive device) both attacked the same building on the same day?

[Swing Dangler]

Ah so you want to SEE figures. Why then have you formed an opinion before seeing any figures? Does that seem rational?

After reading the reports from people who experienced the event in the basement levels, examining the elevator shafts in graphics and from descriptions from NIST, viewing the initial impact, and considering the historical record of terrorists attacks against the WTC, I formed my opinion. Which is why I would like to see figures supporting the contention that a fireball was responsible for the event in the basement.

[Gravy]

Daria Coard's story? She was on the street: she doesn't say how far from the building. It may well have been the south tower collapse she experienced. If not, she describes debris "falling everywhere," which was happening before and during the collapses. People were killed by it. When metal falls from a thousand feet up, it makes a mighty bang. In addition, cars and trucks were on fire and exploding in the street after the aircraft impacts.

[Swing Dangler]

CHF, again, I will not be discussing or responding to who did it or why they did it. Only that an explosive device was used in the sublevels of WTC: North Tower.

The who and why are pure speculation. You second attempt to distract from the topic is noted.

[Quad4_72]

After reading the reports from people who experienced the event in the basement levels, examining the elevator shafts in graphics and from descriptions from NIST, viewing the initial impact, and considering the historical record of terrorists attacks against the WTC, I formed my opinion. Which is why I would like to see figures supporting the contention that a fireball was responsible for the event in the basement.

Any way you could give me a couple sources for the information you used to form your opinion? Sorry I am just trying to gain a better understanding of where you are comin from.

[Swing Dangler]

Daria Coard's story? She was on the street: she doesn't say how far from the building. It may well have been the south tower collapse she experienced. If not, she describes debris "falling everywhere," which was happening before and during the collapses. People were killed by it. When metal falls from a thousand feet up, it makes a mighty bang. In addition, cars and trucks were on fire and exploding in the street after the aircraft impacts.

Is there a reason you linked to her account in Arturo's account in your paper and located her link in the Plaza, Lobby, Concourse, Basement portion in your paper?

Why do you list unknown locations in this section as well?

Also, can you provide a source for the vehicles that exploded near her which would have caused the damage to people that she witnessed?

Or you don't have to considering the topic is the basement at this point.

[CHF]

CHF, again, I will not be discussing or responding to who did it or why they did it. Only that an explosive device was used in the sublevels of WTC: North Tower.

The who and why are pure speculation. You second attempt to distract from the topic is noted.

Just trying to coax a little honesty out of you, that's all. :)

[Quad4_72]

CHF, again, I will not be discussing or responding to who did it or why they did it. Only that an explosive device was used in the sublevels of WTC: North Tower.

The who and why are pure speculation. You second attempt to distract from the topic is noted.

Ah this brings us back to my original question. What was the purpose of putting explosives in the basement? Why do that when the collapse was top down?

[Swing Dangler]

Any way you could give me a couple sources for the information you used to form your opinion? Sorry I am just trying to gain a better understanding of where you are comin from.

Sources: PA Transcripts, Eyewitness accounts in the basement as found in many media outlets, including some in Gravy's paper, and NIST.
I will provide links as soon as I can post them.

[LashL]

I'm not arguing William's timing of impacts. I'm arguing that an explosive device was used by terrorists in the basement of WTC North Tower.

Then why did you say that those vague references in your post corroborate Rodriguez' assertions? Are you saying that Rodriguez asserts that there were explosive devices planted in the basement of the north tower by terrorists?

[Swing Dangler]

Ah this brings us back to my original question. What was the purpose of putting explosives in the basement? Why do that when the collapse was top down?

I will not be respoding to the why and the who at this point. That is pure speculation. If we can agree that a fireball didn't cause the damage, and we can rule out other things that might have caused the destruction and human damage, and reach the conclusion that an explosive device was used, then we can move on to the why and the who.

The who and why only serve to distract from reaching an acceptance of the event itself.

[Swing Dangler]

Then why did you say that those vague references in your post corroborate Rodriguez' assertions? Are you saying that Rodriguez asserts that there were explosive devices planted in the basement of the north tower by terrorists?

Does Rodriguez after learning more information about what happened and talking to other victims still believe a fireball traveled down the elevator shaft to cause the destruction? No I do not think he does, despite what he stated to the NIST early on in the investigation.

Perhaps I should have started a thread on the more specific topic?

[T.A.M.]

Welcome to the Forum Swing...

I am sure you will find your visits here, interesting, if nothing more.

TAM:)

[CHF]

Quit the tap-dancing, Swing. Just say what you think happened.

You're trying to get people to accept a story without presenting any sort of logic behind it.

[Swing Dangler]

Hi Tam! Good to see you again! It's like a SLC reunion here in a very weird sort of way.

[3bodyproblem]

If we can agree that a fireball didn't cause the damage...


No

[Gravy]

After reading the reports from people who experienced the event in the basement levels, examining the elevator shafts in graphics and from descriptions from NIST, viewing the initial impact, and considering the historical record of terrorists attacks against the WTC, I formed my opinion. Which is why I would like to see figures supporting the contention that a fireball was responsible for the event in the basement.1) Many people witnessed the fireball, and described falling elevators, in the basement.

2) People, like Felipe David on B2 and Jose Sanchez on B4, suffered flash burns.

3) People, including William Rodriguez on B1 and Mike Pecoraro on B6, smelled kerosene after the blast. Do you think that's a coincidence?

4) All the explosions were reported at or near the freight elevator. People described a fast, hot wind.

5) There is no evidence of structural damage in the basement, much less damage from explosives massive enough to damage core columns. (Think of the photo I posted of the 1993 bomb damage, which did not destroy the parking garage columns.) The core walls were made of gypsum wallboard.

6) No one describes anything like a high explosive. No one was blown to pieces. High explosives do not produce persistent fireballs. The people in Turner's field office thought a bomb had gone off: a natural assumption. However, there isn't a single shred of evidence of a bomb going off, nor is it logical that a small bomb would be there. All evidence, from the impact zones down, is consistent with jet fuel igniting in the elevator shafts.

7) This happened in both towers.

[Swing Dangler]

Just say what you think happened.
Uhh, I thought I did. I think an explosive device was used in the basement of WTC: North Tower.

You're trying to get people to accept a story without presenting any sort of logic behind it.
I'm presenting facts first. Your looking for logic in motivation and purpose. And again, I just stated that I wouldn't be entertaing the motivation part of the event.

[T.A.M.]

Hi Tam! Good to see you again! It's like a SLC reunion here in a very weird sort of way.

Yes, I agree. I am sure you have been here as a lurker prior to joining, so a blurb on how things work over here is not likely needed.

Presenting evidence is the key, and presenting something new, even if insane or contraversial, will attract more attention than spewing the same old truther tripe...

TAM:)

[Quad4_72]

I will not be respoding to the why and the who at this point. That is pure speculation. If we can agree that a fireball didn't cause the damage, and we can rule out other things that might have caused the destruction and human damage, and reach the conclusion that an explosive device was used, then we can move on to the why and the who.

The who and why only serve to distract from reaching an acceptance of the event itself.

Sorry Swing but thats not the way the scientific method works. You don't start off with the conclusion. You must first explore all other options. But ok, lets assume that it was explosives in the basement. We will go by your method, and right now lets assume everything you say is true. What purpose did putting bombs in the basement of the North tower serve? The collapse was from the top down, so I fail to see the purpose of the bombs in the basement. Do you have an explanation?

[3bodyproblem]

1) Many people witnessed the fireball, and described falling elevators, in the basement.

2) People, like Felipe David on B2 and Jose Sanchez on B4, suffered flash burns.

3) People, including William Rodriguez on B1 and Mike Pecoraro on B6, smelled kerosene after the blast. Do you think that's a coincidence?

4) All the explosions were reported at or near the freight elevator. People described a fast, hot wind.

5) There is no evidence of structural damage in the basement, much less damage from explosives massive enough to damage core columns. (Think of the photo I posted of the 1993 bomb damage, which did not destroy the parking garage columns.) The core walls were made of gypsum wallboard.

6) No one describes anything like a high explosive. No one was blown to pieces. High explosives do not produce persistent fireballs. The people in Turner's field office thought a bomb had gone off: a natural assumption. However, there isn't a single shred of evidence of a bomb going off, nor is it logical that a small bomb would be there. All evidence, from the impact zones down, is consistent with jet fuel igniting in the elevator shafts.

7) This happened in both towers.

Yes

[LashL]

Does Rodriguez after learning more information about what happened and talking to other victims still believe a fireball traveled down the elevator shaft to cause the destruction? No I do not think he does, despite what he stated to the NIST early on in the investigation.

Perhaps I should have started a thread on the more specific topic?

Perhaps you should be more precise with your allegations. I say that the matters you have alluded to and that you say support Rodriguez's (belated) assertions do no such thing.

If you think that Rodriguez believes that there were bombs planted in the basement by terrorists, as you have suggested, I think you should ask him if he agrees with what you are asserting on his behalf rather than asking others what Rodriguez "believes".

As it stands, you have claimed that a report of a "cave in" on level B-4 and a report of people running from a PATH train somehow "support Rodriguez's statements". You have not shown this to be true at all, so you should either provide evidence to support your claim or retract it.

[CHF]

Uhh, I thought I did. I think an explosive device was used in the basement of WTC: North Tower.

Yeah, used by "terrorists."

Care to identify which ones you're thinking of?

[Swing Dangler]

1) Many people witnessed the fireball, and described falling elevators, in the basement.

2) People, like Felipe David on B2 and Jose Sanchez on B4, suffered flash burns.

3) People, including William Rodriguez on B1 and Mike Pecoraro on B6, smelled kerosene after the blast. Do you think that's a coincidence?

4) All the explosions were reported at or near the freight elevator

5) There is no evidence of structural damage in the basement, much less damage from explosives massive enough to damage core columns. (Think of the photo I posted of the 1993 bomb damage, which did not destroy the parking garage columns.) The core walls were made of gypsum wallboard.

6) No one describes anything like a high explosive. No one was blown to pieces. High explosives do not produce persistent fireballs. The people in Turner's field office thought a bomb had gone off: a natural assumption. However, there isn't a single shred of evidence of a bomb going off. All evidence, from the impact zones down, is consistent with jet fuel igniting in the elevator shafts.

7) This happened in both towers.

1. Nobody witnessed a fireball from the collapse zone decending all the way from the impact zone to B-4 into the Path Platform. Many did witness the fireball near the impact zone which is to be expected. How many explosions were reported? If you are burnt in an elevator shaft in the basement or, does that mean the fireball came from the impact? No.
I'm sure you are aware that No. Car 50, the only elevator to reach the impact zone to the B-4. Car 6 reached the impact zone to B-1. Considering the structural damage in B-4 had to have come from elevator 50, then Arthuro the car's operator should be dead.

2. That doesn't mean the burn came from the impact zone. Those that suffered those burns should be found near or on Car 6 at B-1 to have had injuries from the impact zone. We know there is structure damage and human damage from below B-1.

3.Marine Aviation Mechanic Rob Bishop stated that jet fuel smells like cordite. The smell of cordite was also the smell at the Pentagon if I'm not mistaken. The smell of kerosene could have come from the cars in the parking garage. In fact, Mike P. thought the smell was coming from a burning car in the parking garage above them. Again, Mike is on B-6 which could only have been reached by car 50 correct? If the fireball caused the smell, why is Arthuro alive and mentions no fireball?

4. The evidence we have is from the witnesses themselves and Port Authority Transcripts and the reaction and panic of the PATH train commuters. We do not have any pictures of course taken of the sublevels prior to the collapse that I'm aware of. However, not having a picture does not disprove the testimony or refute the descriptions or prove a fireball caused the damage.

6. To my knowledge, none of the witnesses have experience with the effects of high explosives so as to be able to state, "That was a high explosive", with the exception of the people who suffered through the 1993 truck bombing. And sure enough there are several witnesses who were reminded or outright thought what happened was another truck bombing. The secretaries stated that a bomb went off and many of them were hurt but no mention of a fireball, or secondary fires and according to the injuries, you think they would have noticed a fireball entering the room. How persistent must a fireball be to ignite on impact where the jet fuel exploded, travel down a single elevator shaft all the way to the basement and still have the overpressure to damage the levels below B-1? Ed states 30 seconds after the building shakes. Now what he was told to perhaps explain the time difference is that fuel leaked into the shaft and then ignited by a spark. I'm wondering who told him that and who saw the spark.
Unless you are qualified to speak on the fireballs created by explosive devices, the persistence of the fireball is a moot point.

7. I have yet to study the accounts of the South Tower basement levels, so I agree that impacts happened on both towers and cannot comment on the events in the South Tower basement levels.

Lastly, can you explain why you put Daria's account as a link and/or source to Arturo's account in your paper or was it an error?

[Swing Dangler]

Sorry but I must retire for the evening. I will check back tommorrow.

For those who aren't familiar with me from SLC, I have no need to lie to support my contention. I will admit if I am wrong or shown to be wrong from the evidence. Again, I have no need to lie, so there is no reason to think so.

[Unsecured Coins]

as a guy who's field is very large bullets being fired out of a very large armored vehicle, I can and will tell you that cordite and kerosene smell nothing alike.

[CHF]

Nobody witnessed a fireball from the collapse zone decending all the way from the impact zone to B-4 into the Path Platform.Well of course no one witnessed the fireball in the elevator shaft. If anyone did see it they'd be dead now.

What we do have is a) a lot of people smelling kerosene, b) a lot of burn victims, c) damage centered around the elevator shafts, d) no logical reason for a sub-level explosive being used in a top-down collapse.

I keep waiting for a twoofer to contact those burn victims and ask them what casued their burns.

I will admit if I am wrong or shown to be wrong from the evidence.

:rolleyes:

[Gravy]

Lastly, can you explain why you put Daria's account as a link and/or source to Arturo's account in your paper or was it an error?It was corrected the first day the paper was up.

[Gravy]

1. Nobody witnessed a fireball from the collapse zone decending all the way from the impact zone to B-4 into the Path Platform. Straw man. Who is claiming that that happened? (Hint: remember when I said that you're missing something big, and that it's in my paper?)

[Gravy]

2. That doesn't mean the burn came from the impact zone.Straw man.

We know there is structure damage and human damage from below B-1.We do? Please present your evidence of structural damage. I believe I've asked this of you before.

3.Marine Aviation Mechanic Rob Bishop stated that jet fuel smells like cordite. The smell of cordite was also the smell at the Pentagon if I'm not mistaken.I am aware of one person, a lawyer (Don Perkal, I believe), describing a cordite smell at the Pentagon. Many others described smelling and contacting kerosene or jet fuel. Please see the Pentagon section of the page linked in my signature.

The smell of kerosene could have come from the cars in the parking garage.Please read my paper for all the accounts of kerosene smell throughout the towers. William Rodriguez and others smelled kerosene immediately after the blast. I have seen no accounts of burning cars in the parking garages before the collapses. I have been around many burning cars and never noted a kerosene smell.

In fact, Mike P. thought the smell was coming from a burning car in the parking garage above them. Again, Mike is on B-6 which could only have been reached by car 50 correct? If the fireball caused the smell, why is Arthuro alive and mentions no fireball?I strongly suggest that you read Arturo Griffith's account again.

4. The evidence we have is from the witnesses themselves and Port Authority Transcripts and the reaction and panic of the PATH train commuters. We do not have any pictures of course taken of the sublevels prior to the collapse that I'm aware of. However, not having a picture does not disprove the testimony or refute the descriptions or prove a fireball caused the damage.Just another kerosene coincidence, I guess:
S. Alexander: My normal commute involves taking the PATH train from New Jersey to WTC in New York. I reached WTC around 8:57 am and as soon as the doors opened we were engulfed by some chemical that smelled like kerosene and smoke. Not realizing what had happened I walked up the escalator to the ground floor of the WTC where Police officers were directing all commuters to leave the building as soon as possible. Emerging outside of WTC, it looked like a bomb had exploded because there was debris everywhere, paper, fibre-glass insulation and numerous other office stationary material. In my mind I recalled the bombing from 1993 and thought this was something very similar.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/1544197.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/1544197.stm)6. To my knowledge, none of the witnesses have experience with the effects of high explosives so as to be able to state, "That was a high explosive", with the exception of the people who suffered through the 1993 truck bombing. And sure enough there are several witnesses who were reminded or outright thought what happened was another truck bombing. The secretaries stated that a bomb went off and many of them were hurt but no mention of a fireball, or secondary fires and according to the injuries, you think they would have noticed a fireball entering the room. How persistent must a fireball be to ignite on impact where the jet fuel exploded, travel down a single elevator shaft all the way to the basement and still have the overpressure to damage the levels below B-1? Ed states 30 seconds after the building shakes. Now what he was told to perhaps explain the time difference is that fuel leaked into the shaft and then ignited by a spark. I'm wondering who told him that and who saw the spark.
Unless you are qualified to speak on the fireballs created by explosive devices, the persistence of the fireball is a moot point.The witnesses are alive after being burned by fireballs from the elevator shaft. That's how we know it wasn't high explosives, my friend. Get it?

7. I have yet to study the accounts of the South Tower basement levels, so I agree that impacts happened on both towers and cannot comment on the events in the South Tower basement levels.
Actually, I don't have any accounts from the south tower basement. However, the south tower lobby accounts of the elevator mechanic and of "Tilly" are perhaps the most instructive of any witness accounts. If you come across any from the basement, let me know.

[LashL]

Sorry but I must retire for the evening. I will check back tommorrow.

No apologies necessary.

For those who aren't familiar with me from SLC, I have no need to lie to support my contention.

I am not familiar with you from SLC or elsewhere, but around here, as I'm sure you know, people are expected to support their contentions with facts and evidence, and so far, you have not done so. In fact, you have completely and utterly failed to do so. I refer you to my prior posts above, to which you have offered no meaningful response whatsoever in support of your assertions. Please do so at your earliest opportunity.

ETA: I have not seen anyone here accuse you of lying so your post (the one that I have quoted here) strikes me as a strange turn of phrase. People here do indeed expect you to back up your claims with facts and evidence rather than simply spouting uninformed opinion, but that does not equate to calling you a liar.

If and when you are in a position to offer facts and evidence in support of your assertions, it would be a good idea to point them out. (You might want to look up the meaning of "facts" and "evidence" first.)

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Actually, I think it did spill down the shaft and ignite a few seconds later. NIST estimates that 1/3 of the fuel burned in the initial fireball (because the oxygen immediately available was soon depleted), leaving the rest to flow where it may and burn later.

Relevant section of the NIST report regarding fire progression:

2.2.1.2 Fire Development
It is estimated, based on information compiled from Government sources, that each aircraft contained about 10,000 gallons of jet fuel upon impact into the buildings. A review of photographic and video records show that the aircraft fully entered the buildings prior to any visual evidence of flames at the exteriors of the buildings. This suggests that, as the aircraft crashed into and plowed across the buildings, they distributed jet fuel throughout the impact area to form a flammable “cloud.” Ignition of this cloud resulted in a rapid pressure rise, expelling a fuel rich mixture from the impact area into shafts and through other openings
caused by the crashes, resulting in dramatic fireballs.

Although only limited video footage is available that shows the crash of American Airlines Flight 11 into WTC 1 and the ensuing fireballs, extensive video records of the impact of United Airlines Flight 175 into WTC 2 are available. These videos show that three fireballs emanated from WTC 2 on the south, east, and west faces. The fireballs grew slowly, reaching their full size after about 2 seconds. The diameters of the fireballs were greater than 200 feet, exceeding the width of the building. Such fireballs were formed when the expelled jet fuel dispersed and flames traveled through the resulting fuel/air mixture. Experimentally
based correlations for similar fireballs (Zalosh 1995) were used to estimate the amount of fuel consumed.

The precise size of the fireballs and their exact shapes are not well defined; therefore, there is some uncertainty associated with estimates of the amount of fuel consumed by these effects. Calculations indicate that between 1,000 and 3,000 gallons of jet fuel were likely consumed in this manner. Barring additional information, it is reasonable to assume that an approximately similar amount of jet fuel was consumed by fireballs as the aircraft struck WTC 1.

Although dramatic, these fireballs did not explode or generate a shock wave. If an explosion or detonation had occurred, the expansion of the burning gasses would have taken place in microseconds, not the 2 seconds observed. Therefore, although there were some overpressures, it is unlikely that the fireballs, being external to the buildings, would have resulted in significant structural damage. It is not known whether the windows that were broken shortly after impact were broken by these external overpressures, overpressures
internal to the building, the heat of the fire, or flying debris. The first arriving firefighters observed that the windows of WTC 1 were broken out at the Concourse level. This breakage was most likely caused by overpressure in the elevator shafts. Damage to the walls of the
elevator shafts was also observed as low as the 23rd floor, presumably as a result of the overpressures developed by the burning of the vapor cloud on the impact floors.

If one assumes that approximately 3,000 gallons of fuel were consumed in the initial fireballs, then the remainder either escaped the impact floors in the manners described above or was consumed by the fire on the impact floors. If half flowed away, then approximately 4,000 gallons remained on the impact floors to be consumed in the fires that followed. The jet fuel in the aerosol would have burned out as fast as the flame could spread through it, igniting almost every combustible on the floors involved. Fuel that fell to the floor and
did not flow out of the building would have burned as a pool or spill fire at the point where it came to rest.

The time to consume the jet fuel can be reasonably computed. At the upper bound, if one assumes that all 10,000 gallons of fuel were evenly spread across a single building floor, it would form a pool that would be consumed by fire in less than 5 minutes (SFPE 1995) provided sufficient air for combustion was available. In reality, the jet fuel would have been distributed over multiple floors, and some would have been transported to other locations. Some would have been absorbed by carpeting or other furnishings, consumed in the flash fire in the aerosol, expelled and consumed externally in the fireballs, or flowed away from the fire floors. Accounting for these factors, it is believed that almost all of the jet fuel that remained on the impact floors was consumed in the first few minutes of the fire.

As the jet fuel burned, the resulting heat ignited office contents throughout a major portion of several of the impact floors, as well as combustible material within the aircraft itself.
A limited amount of physical evidence about the fires is available in the form of videos and still photographs of the buildings and the smoke plume generated soon after the initial attack. Estimates of the buoyant energy in the plume were obtained by plotting the rise of the smoke plume, which is governed by buoyancy in the vertical direction and by the wind in the horizontal direction. Using the Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD) fire model, Fire Dynamics Simulator Ver. 1 (FDS1), fire scientists at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) (Rehm, et al. 2002) were able to mathematically approximate the size of fires required to produce such a smoke plume. As input to this model, an estimate of the openings available to provide ventilation for the fires was obtained from an examination of photographs taken of the damaged tower. Meteorological data on wind velocity and atmospheric temperatures were provided by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) based on reports from the Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS). The information used weather monitoring instruments onboard three aircraft that departed from LaGuardia and Newark airports between 7:15 a.m. and 9:00 a.m. on September 11, 2001. The wind speed at heights equal to the upper stories of the towers was in the range of 10–20 mph. The outside temperatures over the height of the building were 20–21 °C (68–70 °F).

The modeling suggests a peak total rate of fire energy output on the order of 3–5 trillion Btu/hr, around 1–1.5 gigawatts (GW), for each of the two towers. From one third to one half of this energy flowed out of the structures. This vented energy was the force that drove the external smoke plume. The vented energy and accompanying smoke from both towers combined into a single plume. The energy output from each of the two buildings is similar to the power output of a commercial power generating station. The modeling also suggests ceiling gas temperatures of 1,000 °C (1,800 °F), with an estimated confidence of plus
or minus 100 °C (200 °F) or about 900–1,100 °C (1,600–2,000 °F). A major portion of the uncertainty in these estimates is due to the scarcity of data regarding the initial conditions within the building and how the aircraft impact changed the geometry and fuel loading. Temperatures may have been as high as 900–1,100 °C (1,700–2,000 °F) in some areas and 400–800 °C (800–1,500 °F) in others.

The viability of a 3–5 trillion Btu/hr (1–1.15 GW) fire depends on the fuel and air supply. The surface area of office contents needed to support such a fire ranges from about 30,000–50,000 square feet, depending on the composition and final arrangement of the contents and the fuel loading present. Given the typical occupied area of a floor as approximately 30,000 square feet, it can be seen that simultaneous fire involvement of an area equal to 1–2 entire floors can produce such a fire. Fuel loads are typically described in terms of the equivalent weight of wood. Fuel loads in office-type occupancies typically range from about 4–12 psf, with the mean slightly less than 8 psf (Culver 1977). File rooms, libraries, and similar concentrations of paper materials have significantly higher concentrations of fuel. At the burning rate necessary to yield these fires, a fuel load of about 5 psf would be required to provide sufficient fuel to maintain the fire at full force for an hour, and twice that quantity to maintain it for 2 hours. The air needed to support combustion would be on the order of 600,000–1,000,000 cubic feet per minute.

Air supply to support the fires was primarily provided by openings in the exterior walls that were created by the aircraft impacts and fireballs, as well as by additional window breakage from the ensuing heat of the fires. Table 2.1 lists the estimated exterior wall openings used in these calculations. Although the table shows the openings on a floor-by-floor basis, several of the openings, particularly in the area of impact, actually spanned several floors (see Figure 2-17).

Sometimes, interior shafts in burning high-rise buildings also deliver significant quantities of air to a fire, through a phenomenon known as “stack effect,” which is created when differences between the ambient exterior air temperatures and the air temperatures inside the building result in differential air pressures, drawing air up through the shafts to the fire area. Because outside and inside temperatures appear to have been virtually the same on September 11, this stack effect was not expected to be strong in this case.

Based on photographic evidence, the fire burned as a distributed collection of large but separate fires with significant temperature variations from space to space, depending on the type and arrangement of combustible material present and the available air for combustion in each particular space. Consequently, the temperature and related incident heat flux to the structural elements varied with both time and location. This information is not currently available, but could be modeled with advanced CFD fire models.

Damage caused by the aircraft impacts is believed to have disrupted the sprinkler and fire standpipe systems, preventing effective operation of either the manual or automatic suppression systems. Even if these systems had not been compromised by the impacts, they would likely have been ineffective. It is believed that the initial flash fires of jet fuel would have opened so many sprinkler heads that the systems would have quickly depressurized and been unable to effectively deliver water to the large area of fire involvement. Further, the initial spread of fires was so extensive as to make occupant use of small hose streams ineffective. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2033916#post2033916

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I will not be respoding to the why and the who at this point. That is pure speculation. If we can agree that a fireball didn't cause the damage, and we can rule out other things that might have caused the destruction and human damage, and reach the conclusion that an explosive device was used, then we can move on to the why and the who.

The who and why only serve to distract from reaching an acceptance of the event itself.

Executive Summary
The use of "explosive" and "explosion" interchangeably in discussion is erroneous; and the use of "explosions" as evidence of "explosives" is fundamentally flawed.

Loud Noises (aka bangs, booms, cracks, explosions (heard but not seen) etc)
Q. What are loud noises?
A. Within the context of this post I will be defining loud noises as "Sound or a sound that is loud, unpleasant, unexpected, or undesired." http://www.thefreedictionary.com/noise (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/noise) (def. #1)

Explosions
Q. What are explosions?
A. Wikipedia defines ExplosionsWP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosions) as "a sudden increase in volume (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volume) and release of energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy) in a violent manner, usually with the generation of high temperatures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperatures) and the release of gases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas). An explosion causes pressure waves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_wave) in the local medium in which it occurs. Explosions are categorized as deflagrations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflagration) if these waves are subsonic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsonic) and detonations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detonation) if they are supersonic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersonic) (shock waves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_wave))."

Q. What are causes of explosions?
A. The Wikipedia article on ExplosionsWP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosions) lists a number of causes of explosions:
Chemical explosions
Nuclear explosions
Steam boiler explosions
Electrical explosions
Volcanic explosions
Astronomical event explosions and
Exploding animalsExplosives
Q. What are explosives?
A. Wikipedia defines ExplosivesWP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosives) as "a material that either is chemically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemistry) or otherwise energetically unstable or produces a sudden expansion of the material usually accompanied by the production of heat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat) and large changes in pressure (and typically also a flash and/or loud noise) upon initiation; this is called the explosion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosion)."

The Logic
Argument 1
P1: If an explosive is detonated then there will be an explosion;
P2: An explosive is detonated;
C: Therefore, there was an explosion.

This is a logically sound argument. P1 is true by definition of what an explosive does and is included in the definition of things that can cause explosions.
This is known as affirming the antecedent (http://www.galilean-library.org/int16.html#affirming_the_consequent) and is expressed as:
P1: If A then B;
P2: A;
C: Therefore, B.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Argument 2
P1: If there is an explosion, then you will hear a loud noise;
P2: There was an explosion;
C: Therefore, it was heard as a loud noise.

This is a logically sound argument. P1 is true as, by definition, explosions create shock-waves. The shock-waves are heard and meet the criteria of being a loud noise.
This is known as affirming the antecedent (http://www.galilean-library.org/int16.html#affirming_the_consequent) and is expressed as:
P1: If A then B;
P2: A;
C: Therefore, B.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Argument 3
P1: If there is an explosion then you will hear a loud noise;
P2: There was a loud noise;
C: Therefore, there was an explosion.

This is not a logically sound argument as there are, by definition of what a loud noise is, causes of loud noises that are not explosions (ex. steel bar snapping, book slamming on the floor, etc).
This is known as affirming the consequent (http://www.galilean-library.org/int16.html#affirming_the_consequent) and is a logical fallacy. It is expressed as:
P1: If A then B;
P2: B;
C: Therefore, A.

The generalized expression of why it is fallacious is:
P1: If A then B;
P2: If C then B;
P3: B;
C: Therefore, A.

Expressed as such, it is clear why it is not a sound logical argument.

It can be made in to a sound logical argument with the addition of another premise (which must be shown to be true), such that:
P1: If A then B;
P2: Only A can cause B;
P3: B;
C: Therefore, A.

Therefore, we would have to be able to say:
P1: If there is an explosion then you will hear a loud noise;
P2: Only explosions can cause loud noises;
P3: There was a loud noise;
C: Therefore, there was an explosion.

This is clearly an untenable argument.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Argument 4
P1: If an explosive is detonated then there will be an explosion;
P2: There was an explosion;
C: Therefore, there was an explosive was detonated.

This is not a logically sound argument as there are, by definition of what a loud noise is, causes of loud noises that are not explosions (ex. steel bar snapping, book slamming on the floor, etc).
This is known as affirming the consequent (http://www.galilean-library.org/int16.html#affirming_the_consequent) and is a logical fallacy. It is expressed as:
P1: If A then B;
P2: B;
C: Therefore, A.

The generalized expression of why it is fallacious is:
P1: If A then B;
P2: If C then B;
P3: B;
C: Therefore, A.

Expressed as such, it is clear why it is not a sound logical argument.

It can be made in to a sound logical argument with the addition of another premise (which must be shown to be true), such that:
P1: If A then B;
P2: Only A can cause B;
P3: B;
C: Therefore, A.

This requirement means that for proponent of CD in the WTC to claim that witness reports of explosions are evidence of the use of explosives the following must be true:
P1: If an explosive is detonated then there will be an explosion;
P2: Only explosives can cause explosions;
P3: There was an explosion;
C: Therefore, there was an explosive was detonated.

This clearly runs counter to the definition of what an explosion is, and is shown to not be true by the examples cited for causes of explosions that do not fall in to the category of explosives. Therefore, this is also an untenable argument.

What does this mean for discussion?
It means that...

... if a witness reported hearing a loud noise and called it an explosion we can not conclude it was caused by an explosion
... if a witness reported seeing an explosion we can not conclude it was caused by an explosive
... the term "explosion" and "explosive" can not be used interchangeably

[Gravy]

A. The Wikipedia article on ExplosionsWP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosions) lists a number of causes of explosions:
Chemical explosions
Nuclear explosions
Steam boiler explosions
Electrical explosions
Volcanic explosions
Astronomical event explosions and
Exploding animalsHa! I told you asteriods needed consideration!

I had an English Bulldog like that once, despite many changes of diet.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Ha! I told you asteriods needed consideration!

I had an English Bulldog like that once, despite many changes of diet.
You know, when I was putting that post together originally, I knew that the asploding animals was completely irrelevant, but it was just so dang funny I couldn't force myself to take it out as a source of explosions.

[Gravy]

You know, when I was putting that post together originally, I knew that the asploding animals was completely irrelevant, but it was just so dang funny I couldn't force myself to take it out as a source of explosions.You definitely did the right thing.

[Swing Dangler]

Thursday, March 8, 2007
The Case For Explosives At The World Trade Center: North Tower Sublevel

I will not attempt the blame game with this premise. I am not a structural engineer or an explosives expert. I do have reasonable doubts about the official story. My research to this point on a personal level has been with a trained explosive expert in the U.S. military and with a construction engineer from Purdue University however I am not using their expertise in this premise as they have not allowed me to release their names.
I have read reports in support of the NIST and rebuttals to the NIST report. I have also read the NIST report summary as posted online. The reason for this hypothesis is to consider what was reponsible for the event that took place in the North Tower basement levels. The existence for this hypothesis is four-fold.

1. The NIST did not attempt to explain the reason for a global collapse nor consider the explosive device hypothesis because they saw no evidence. Does that make the existence of explosive devices(ED) invalid? No.

2. NIST provided no evidence to support their view that the collapse of upper floors led to a progressive collapse or more importantly a global collapse. We have no idea if the event in the basement assisted in the collape of the North Tower.

3. The NIST made a conscience decision not to test for explosive residue at the WTC complex despite the overwhelming evidence that something occurred in the sublevels of WTC North Tower. This would have proven one way or another whether an explosive device was used in the sublevels of the North Tower, however, no test by any Federal Agency was conducted.

4. The historical record of terrorism against America is another valid reason to explore the ED hypothesis. I'm sure you are all aware of the 1993 WTC attack using a truck bomb in the subbasement at the WTC. If terrorists could use this tactic of placing an explosive device in their target once, isn’t it reasonable to suggest they might try that tactic again, especially when combined with the use of planes? The reasonable person would think so.

Please do not confuse the use of an explosive device with controlled demolition. As Implosion World stated the collapses did not have the same characteristics of a traditional controlled demolition. With that issue, I do agree to a point. The collapse did not start at the bottom as per a traditional demolition but the attack on the structure began with the plane impact and in the basement sublevels and centered around the core where the elevator shafts were located. There is some testimony supporting an explosion taking place in the basement prior to impact, however, the timing of the event is not the premise of this examination, only the fact that an explosive event did occur that can not be attributed to a fireball from jet fuel.

My first piece of evidence for arguing for an explosive device is the logical sequence of events that followed the explosive sound. Numerous things can sound like explosions. I do not dispute this. However, it is the reaction and change of the surroundings, the injuries to people, and their reactions and thoughts following the sound of the explosion which points to a device in the basement sublevels. All of the accounts below follow this locigcal sequence.

The second piece of evidence is the damage to the structure and victims surroundings. A few examples of structural damage include: walls that are cracked or destroyed, a parking garage is obliterated , a machine shop is destroyed, failing celings, as well as a multiple cave-ins.

Numerous witnesses in the sublevels have stated on record regarding the damage in the substructure of WTC-North Tower. To avoid the accusation of cherry picking or quote mining, I have provided the relevant link after each account. Also with each witness I have tried to use their words verbatim in the description of events that they experienced.

The conclusion of the paper will show that it is impossible for a fireball from the first impact of the plane to have caused the type of personal and structural damage experienced and reported. Bsbray of studyof911.com has provided an excellent analysis refuting the fireball theory so I have no intention of reinventing the wheel.


A. Employees of WTC-North Tower Who Describe The Event In The North Tower Sub-levels

1.Mike Pecoraro, Stationary Engineer and unnamed Co-Worker
a)Location: Sub-level C
b) Sees 'lights flicker, the Asst. Engineer reports to him hearing a large
explosion,
c) Sees white smoke, and reports the smell of kerosene.
d) The smell he thought coming from perhaps a burning car in the parking garage above them.
e) Kerosene smell, not a kerosene fire. Burning Kerosene does not produce white smoke.
f) Damage after the sound of an explosion: When the two arrived at the C level, they
found the machine shop gone. "There was nothing there but rubble, "Mike said.
"We're talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press gone!"
g) Location of damage-C-level
h) The two made their way to the parking garage, but found that it, too, was gone.
i) "There were no walls, there was rubble on the floor, and you can't see anything" he said.
j) Parking garage and walls are gone.
k) As they ascended to the B Level they were astonished to see a steel and concrete fire door that weighed about 300 pounds,wrinkled up "like a piece of aluminum foil" and lying on the floor.
l)Comments, "They got us again referring to the WTC 93 bombing. He saw similar things after that bombing.
m) He was convinced a bomb had went off in the building.
n) Observes two victims, badly burned an injured.
Brief summary of experience: An explosive sound heard, followed by white smoke with massive damage on multiple floors, a parking garage destroyed, with burned and injured victims. All of this damage reported by this witness but no mention of fire damage or one iota of a fireball. There is also no soot reported in the lobby from the fireball from the plane that supposedly caused the damage. Keep in mind as you continue to read the accounts, that a single fireball from the impact zone almost 80 floors above traveled down a single elevator shaft, failed to kill or even burn the elevator operator, Arturo Griffith, but causes all of this damage in the various levels of the basement.
Source: Chief Engineer http://www.chiefengineer.org/article.cfm?seqnum1=1029

2. Jose Sanchez, Maintience Worker & co-worker, Chino
a)Location: Sublevel 4 workshop.
b) Hears the sound of an explosion,” It sounded like a bomb went off."
c) Sees lights flicker.
d) Fireball in the freight elevator.
e) Singes hair and drops co-worker Chino to his knees.
f) Room fills with smoke, "I believe it was a bomb that blew up inside the building."
g) Chino's leg and knee apparently broken. He can't walk and gets assistance from Sanchez.
h) Fireballs do not break legs, however, concussion force can and does.
i) Exits at parking level lot on sub level 4 and sees many people fleeing.
j) "It took about 15 or 20 minutes to get outside and for me it was like a bomb with huge smoke all around.”
i) Comments he is lucky to be alive because he wasn't near the stairwell.
Brief Summary: The sound of an explosion is heard, damage to a freight elevator takes place and the victim feels that a bomb caused the damage. He does experience a fireball, but it will be shown not to orginate from jet fuel at impact, but from at least the detonation of at least one explosive device.
Source: Second Janitor Story

3. Phillip Morelli, construction worker, 7 year employee at WTC 1
a) Location-4th sublevel, B-4 main freight car
b) "That is when I got blown. The impact of the explosion or whatever
happened threw me to the floor. And that’s when everything started happenin'. It knocked me right to the floor. You didn't know what it was, you just assumed something fell over in the loading dock. Something very heavy, something very big. You don't know what happened then all the sudden you just felt the floor movin' and you get up... the walls, you know now I'm hearing that the main freight car, the elevators, you know what I mean fell down so I was right near the main freight car so I assumed what that was. Then you heard that comin' towards ya. I was racing I was goin' towards the bathroom, all of the sudden I opened the door I didn't know it was the bathroom and then the big impact happened again and then all the ceiling tiles started falling down the light fixtures were falling swinging, swinging out of the ceiling. I came runnin'out of the door and everything,the walls were down and I started runnin' towards the parkin' lots."
c) Nearly 100 floors below where the first plane hit.
d) Thought a car or something exploded on B-1 or something big and heavy got delivered and fell over.
e) Knew it was something big floor was moving underneath him
f) Reports smoke and people screaming
g) Got to parking lot and describes a lot of smoke, people screaming, and helping a person with a broken leg.
h) He and others run up the ramp from 1 to 2, as you have to do that to get out of the subbasement, it happens all over again. And got thrown to the floor. But unaware of a second plane hit.
i) Walls in the basement caved in.
j) Knows people got killed, broken legs, and reconstructive surgery because the walls hit them in the face.
k) No matter where you were in the building, you weren't safe.
l) Reports no fireball as the official story proposes.
Brief Summary: An explosion throws Phillip to the ground and causes the floor to move underneath him. The explosion destroys walls and a freight elevator that he was near. He runs to the bathroom and another explosion causes damage to the ceiling and lights and injured people are seen in parking garage. All of this damage people and the structure but not a single mention of the raging fireball that NIST states caused all of this damage. Phillip attempts to escape by going to Tower 2 exit and gets thrown to the ground for a second time!
Source-NY1 News
4. Marlene Cruz, Carpenter, employee for 15 years
a) Location: elevator subbasement B, WTC 1
b) Hears an explosion that blows up the elevator, the elevator falls, and gets stuck at B level.
c) Herself and the elevator operator are injured.
d) She reports her body felt like it was run over by a truck and has a sprained leg.
e) After hearing the explosion she states, "Here we go again another bomb" in
reference to her experience with the 1993 truck bombing.
f) States seeing her friend Arthur Delbianco who was fine after she go hurt.
They hear screams. He was going around looking for other people, trying to break through doors to see who he found. She states Arthur got hurt after her. No description is given of how he was hurt. However, in Arthur's account a blast from behind them throws them 25-50 feet.
Brief Summary: Marlene hears an explosion, elevator is blown up, stops at B-1 Marlene and the elevator worker suffer injuries. She gives no mention of burns from a raging fireballf. She mentions no smoke or fire at all from a jet fuel. However, the explosion reminds her of the 1993 truck bomb and she thinks it is another bomb.
Source: ABC News Special Report with Peter Jennings

5. Arthur Delbianco-
a. gLocation: Above the basement but below the impact zone and eventually subbasement B, WTC 1
b. Aruthur after the impact, assists in taking people down to the lobby. He mentions no fire or fireball in his elevator or his elevator shaft.
c. He then travels to sub level 1 and finds his friend Marlene Cruz and Hursley Lever, a mechanic.
d. He sees sprinklers are spraying water and ceiling tiles collapsed after arrivin in the basement.
e. As the three are running through the chaos, when something occurs.
f. "The blast came from behind us and just pushed us down. We just slid for 25 or 50 feet."
g. He suffers personal injury in the form of a seperated shoulder and broken knee.
h. A fireman rescues him.
Brief Summary: Here is a man that rescues several people below the impact zone and then travels to the sub level B. All this time, no fireball is experienced or secondary fires reported. When he ends up in the sub level B, another explosion that reminded Marlene of the 1993 truck bombing takes place causing his personal injuries. Yet no mention of a fireball in the basement. Considering that the event that took place in the basement was so near the impact of the plane, when did a firefighter arrive a B level and why only one?
Source: San Fransico Chronicle, September 14, 2001

6. Felipe David, employee of Aramark Co.
a. Location-office sub level 1
b. Explosion heard below sub level 1.
c. The building started shaking.
d. Dust was flying everywhere.
e. It got real hot.
f. Reports feeling burned.
g. “I threw myself onto the floor, covered my face because I felt like I was burned.
h"I sat there for a couple of seconds on the floor and felt like I was going to die, saying to myself
‘God, please give me strength.”
i. Severely burned on his face, arms and hands with skin hanging from his body.
j. Reports to several others in an office that there was an explosion.
k. Other state that it is good he is alive despite his appearance.
Brief Summary: Explosion heard below him, feels heat and is burned severally, and reports an explosion. The event that caused personal damage was below him and reports no fireball.
Source: Colombia television programming in Spanish on the Red Continental
De Noticias (RNC) with Gurisatti a Colombian reporter as a part of
an in-depth 9/11 documentary after the foreign station spent a month
in New York in 2002 shooting the project.

7. Salvatore Giambanco, a WTC office painter, just getting off of an elevator
a. Location, sub-level 1 opposite side of Felipe David.
b. Hears an explosion, reports smoke came from all over.
c. "An incredible force of wind swept everything away."
d. Standing with another man, he hears a screaming woman.
e. As a reaction to the wind, Salavatore and the unidentified man jump back into the elevator.
f. The elevator descends to between sub-level B-2 and B-3.
g. Witnesses other people through the slot running and screaming.
h. Water begins to enter the elevator apparently from the sprinkler system.
i. Salvatore begins to fear for his life and is screaming.
j. "God, please help us.’ At that point, I was resigned to the fact I was going to die”
k. Hears William Rodriguez ask, "How many people are down there?"
l. Rodriguez rescues the two men.
m. Rides in an ambulance to the hospital.
n. “I remember riding in the ambulance that morning and looking back, thinking it had to be a bomb."
o. Upon learning an airplane had hit the tower: “Later they told me it was an airplane that hit the towers, but how could it just be an airplane? I know all the newspapers were saying that, but it was just too incredible to believe if you heard and experienced what I did. It had to be a bomb.”
Brief Summary: Salavatore hears an explosion, observes human damage from the explosion, and reacts to the environmental impact of the explosion, and believes it was a bomb. He mentions no fireball decending the elevator shaft that he jumped back into!
Source: Colombia television programming in Spanish on the Red Continental
De Noticias (RNC) with Gurisatti a Colombian reporter as a part of
an indepth 9/11 documentary after the foreign station spent a month
in New York in 2002 shooting the project.


8. Bobby Hall-ABM Engineering Employee
Location: 50 feet underground apparently B-1, possibly B-2 walking from the garage into the building to the office.
a. “We were going to our shop to make a call and find out what the first explosion was and the place just came apart on us,” “What we found out later was the hot wind was the number 50 freight car falling from the 88th floor and it just came into the area where we were and just blew us back out into the parking lot.”
b. He is thrown into a steel door.
c. Assists two other injured men after struggling to his feet.
d. He suffers an injury to his hand, numbness in his hand, and has had surgery.
Brief Summary: A key point to Bobby’s account strangely enough lacks a fireball traveling down the elevator shaft. He hears one explosion and is on the way to his office to find out what it was, and then the place came apart. The fact that he is told that wind from the elevator is what blew them back into the parking lot is strange. This elevator air does not match Arturo’s account of Number 50 freight car’s breaks stopping his elevator at floor 15 or 16. In People Magazine October 1,2001 the elevator finally comes to rest at the lobby. So it is highly doubtful it is air from an elevator that impacted Mr. Hall and his co-worker, as they were told. His account of a hot wind gust matches Salvatore Giambanco’s account of large amount of wind sweeping everything away after the explosion. In reality, in Bobby's case it appears it was the pressure force from an explosion in the sub-basement area that was separate from the plane impact that injured Bobby not wind from a elevator stopping or slowing down 15 floors above. This involuntary action of being thrown to the ground matches Phillip Morelli account of being thrown to the ground by an explosion in the sub-levels as well. Bobby's account describes two explosions, possibly one from the plane and certainly one in the subbasement. Bobby could also be one of the male caller's in the PA transcripts calling from a cell phone to report injuries to victims and/or damage to the structure.
Source: NY1 For You: Engineer Injured In WTC Attacks Still Needs Help With Surgery Costs
In Life In Limbo After Layoffs-Chicago Tribune

9. Kenny Johannemann-ABM Janitorial Services
a. Location: Awaiting the arrival of an elevator in the basement.
b. "The lift door exploded open. there was a man inside half burnt. His skin was hanging off.(Felipe David?) "I dragged him out of the lift and somebody (William Rodriguez?)helped me get him out for the building."
c. Reports no fireball exiting the elevator door when it opens or no fireball prior to the elevator arriving, and finally no fires remaining in or around the elevator.
Source: People Magazine, September 24th

10. William Rodriguez-WTC Janitor
a. Location: Office Sub-level 1
b. "When I heard the sound of the explosion, the floor beneath my feet vibrated, the walls started cracking and it everything started shaking."
c. Was huddled togther with at least 14 other people in the office.
d. States Anthony Saltamachia, supervisor for the American Maintenance Co., was one of the people in the room who stands ready to verify his story.
e. "Seconds after the first massive explosion below in the basement still rattled the floor, I hear another explosion from way above," said Rodriguez.
f. "Although I was unaware at the time, this was the airplane hitting the tower, it occurred moments after the first explosion."
g. He encounters Felipe David.
h. Felipe David stormed into the basement office with severe burns on his face and arms, screaming for help and yelling "explosion! explosion! explosion!"
i. "He (David)was burned terribly," said Rodriguez. "The skin was hanging off his hands and arms."
j. "I don't care what the government says, what scientists say. I saw a man burned terribly from a fire that was caused from an explosion below."
k. "I know there were explosives placed below the trade center. I helped a man to safety who is living proof, living proof the government story is a lie and a cover-up."

Brief Summary: William hears an explosion below him, the floor vibrates, walls
crack, and everything starts to shake. He encounters a victim who suffered the effects of the explosion, and eventually concludes bombs were placed in the basement. Originally he testified to NIST that it was a fireball in 50 freight elevator. However, reading his account, he could not have witnessed a fireball from his location, which leads me to believe he was told what happened and then repeated this to NIST. After learning more information, William changed his mind and concluded an explosion in the basement caused the destruction. William's has received substantial personal attacks from supporters of the official story for changing his story despite being honored as a hero by President Bush. One has to wonder, why those who accept the offical story as gospel would choose to attack this man's character, considering all of the testimony that collaborates the story he tells today regarding the detonation of an explosive device in the basement of World Trade Center: North Tower.
Source: WTC Basement Blast and Injured Victim Blows Official 9/11 Story Sky High

11. Edward McCabe-Engineer
a. Location: refergeration plant sub level 4.
b. He feels a shifting of the building
c. 30 seconds later,I froze right where I stood and listened....nothing.. about 30 seconds past and to my left about 30 feet from me was a stairway leading up to a door. this door explodes off its hinges and white smoke came into the plant.
Seconds later through the smoke came people who worked beyond that door for the construction company.they were all secrataries,they walked like zombies not speaking I can smell their burnt flesh.one was bleeding pretty bad and i started to walk her to path train station accross the plant. 1 woman seemed unharmed and i asked her what happened..she told me a bomb blew up their offices.when we got to the PATH platform i layed the woman down ,she thanked me,and i returned to the blown door to see if i could find anyone else.Sure enough there were more,.the smoke was being sucked up the shaft now and i can see there were no longer any walls just rubble.1 woman was under her desk refusing to come out.after a little coaxing she came and at this point a few of my colleuges,were sifting through the rubble,trying to find anybody .we did about 3 trips .everyone was out.i returned to the plant and called for ems on the radio(walky talky),I couldn't get through there was chaos on the radio.I switched on the am radio we had in the plant to the all news station and heard "ONCE AGAIN A PLANE HAS HIT THE86FLOOR OF ONE WORLD TRADE CENTER"i started running towards the area where we had brought the injured when i see about 9 fire men running my way.they approached me an asked "where are we getting all these people from." I told them over there pointing about 25yards away to the staircase with the blown door.they asked me to show them exactly where and I told them "there is no one left lets get the hell outta here",they told me to calm down and lead them to the offices beyond the blown door.I said "ok lets do this " so we start running for the stairs as we started to ascend the lights went out just the little exit signs over the doors were illuminated.I started to panic .(I found out later on the lights were lost when the second plane hit.)not one of the firemen had a freakin flashlight ,I couldn't believe it ,i guess in all this chaos they forgot them.the firemen in charge said to me,"wait here we will be right back",and just like that they all ran back the way they came .Not 1 of them stayed behind.I stood there at the bottom of those stairs scared ******** ,in the dark ,listening to the eery sound of the smoke sucking up that elevator shaft.Maybe a minute passed when I said to myself "what am I a ****in' idiot."and proceeded to run past the area where we brought the injured in path station,EMS was taking care of them and for that i was thankfull.I noticed the owner of the deli/restaurant bar was locking himself in . I guess to guard from looters.the escalator leading up to the concourse level was (believe it or not )running.AT this point i stopped and rode the escalator up. Catching my breath,when i reached the top I noticed everyone was evacuating in a calm and orderly fashion.I started to feel a little more at ease.i ran up another out of order escalator to the plaza level and started running towards daylight i noticed debris coming down.as I got closer I realized there were people hitting the ground exploding on impact among office furniture and luggage i was sickened by the sight.I waited for a lull and ran for it out the doors to the open air it was chaos fire engines all over people screaming.i looked up and saw both towers on fire,i couldn't believe my eyes .people were jumping ,I saw a couple holding hands freefalling from at least the 90 -95th floors.I ran to broadway and watched from there i still was in shock,when over the walky talky my supervisor makes a general announcement "all WTC mechanical personnel rally at the pump station".I start running back towards the pump station which is up the block accross from 1 wtc.as i pass 1wtc people are still hitting the ground ,i'll never forget the sound. when i arrive everyones hugging and happy to see each other .i lean up against the wall and slide down on my ass and look up at the towers burning people still jumping.
i will finish this some other time i'm emotionally drained just writing this..God Bless.
Edward McCabe, Story #936, The September 11 Digital Archive, 25 July 2002

Brief Summary: Astute readers of the above commentary who examine the source, will notice I left out the description of the fireball and jet fuel in the above account. I did this not due to dishonesty, but for the simple fact Edward was TOLD this to him by somebody after the event. In fact he states, "I later on found out the reason there was an explosion was the jet fuel filled the elevator shaft and seconds later a spark triggered an explosion." Not his words mind you, but someone who TOLD him the excuse that he repeats in his account. Not only that he doesn't report a fireball or secondary fires in the doorway but does describe destroyed walls and rubble. So he was not a witness to a fireball or jetfuel that was ignited by a spark. Second he describes white smoke exiting a stairwell, not black smoke as produced by burning jet fuel. Another female victim believes a bomb blew up in their office, resulting in the injury of secretaries. He mentions that the lights went out , but again learns later it was the second impact.
He also mentions no smoke or fire when he arrives on the Concourse level where people are exiting in an orderly fashion.

The one thing I find very disturbing is his encounter with 9 firemen in sublevel 4. Although we are unaware of the exact time Edward encounters them, we know it is shortly after the plane strike as announced by the radio according to his account. The firemen ask Edward where all of the people (secretaries) are coming from and he directs them to the offices beyond the destroyed doorway. All of the sudden the lights go out, leaving only the exit signs illuminated. None of the firemen have a flashlight and the firemen in charge tells Edward to "wait here, we'll be right back". All 9 firemen run off in the opposite direction from which they came as Ed is suprised and upset that not one fireman remained behind or came back for him.

My question is, how did 9 firemen get to sublevel 4 so quickly after the impact and what were they doing down there? Why did they tell Edward to "wait right here, we'll be right back" but do not return? Many people who support the official story would like to know how explosive devices were planted in the buildling basement? Was it via a delivery truck? Or were explosives placed or prepared to detonate by the terrorists ? Could terrorists have posed as firefightes in order to help facilitate the detonation of a device in the World Trade Center: North Tower basement? Could they have been the people who kept telling survivors of the basement blast that it was a fireball from jet fuel that caused the explosion, the damage, and the injuries, and not an explosive device?
If anyone could point me to a source, preferabbly from PA or Firefighter transcripts to confirm the presence of 9 firemen in the basement level 4 shortly after impact, I would greatly appreciate it and it would put my mind to ease. .


B. Police, Port Authority, etc. Transcripts In Response To An Event In The Sublevels of WTC: North Tower

The following accounts are from Port Authority transcripts that revolve around an event that took place in the basement of WTC: North Tower. Many of the callers are unidentified but could possibly be matched to some of the eyewitnesses above.

1. Unidentified Male Caller to Port Authority Police Department-
a. Location-Turner Construction right outside the 50 car, across the hall from 50 car.
b. “Officer, help.” We’re down on the B-4 level. There’s been a big explosion. We’ve got water
lines open. There seems to be smoke and steam in the area.”
c. The caller goes on to report “smoke but unsure whether it is from fire or dust” with “broken water lines and water all over”.
Brief Summary: Do you see something missing in this call to the police? If you said burning jet fuel, a fireball, or secondary fires from the fireball you would be correct.
Port Authority Transcript
Source: http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-transcript036.pdf

2. Male Caller on Portable Device call to PAPD Officer Brady
a. Location- B-1 level
b. “We had a ….minor explosion (inaudible). Or a major explosion.
Brief Summary: Again, the fireball and expected secondary fires are missing.
Port Authority Transcript
Source: http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-transcript010.pdf

3. Male Caller on Radio Channel W to Police I (it appears to be the same caller as above but recorded on a different channel)
a. Location-B-1 level, One World Trade Center
b. “(inaudible) B-1, level , One World Trade Center. It’s (inaudible),we had a minor explosion or a major explosion, something happened down here.”
Brief Summary: Another call and no mention of a fireball or secondary fire or burning fuel.
Port Authority Transcript
Source: http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-transcript047.pdf

4. Male Caller Recorded on Radio Channel X-Security
a. Location-B-2 between red and yellow lots
b. ASAP, six-three, be advised, I have to ABM workers down here on B2 ah...between the red and yellow lots. Be advised I’ve got two ABM workers hurt.”
c. “I need an ER ESP down here ASAP!”
d. After being asked where he needs assistance, the caller responds.
e. "B2 between the red lot and the yellow lot, the walkway where the ABM office is."
Brief Summary: This could be Bobby Hall's call. He was in the area described and matches his acccount of helping two individuals. He also used someone's cell phone to make a call after his experience. The person's cell phone he used was crushed by debris outside of the tower shortly after Bobby borrowed it. Yet again, we have another call to the police that reports injury but no fire, no fireball, and no burning jet fuel.
Port Authority Transcript
Source: http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-transcript048.pdf

5. PAPD Officer 33 responding to a Cave in at B-4
a. Location: Traveling to sub-level B-4, WTC North Tower
b. “Myself and (inaudible) to the Trade Center responding with scott packs to the B-4 Level. There’s a report of a cave-in and people trapped.”
c. PAPD Desk-“Roger, three three and eight-two Houston, World Trade responding B-4 level on a report of a cave in.
d. Officer 33- “There’s also been a cave-in at the platform of the PATH plaza…there’s a live electrical, and water running. Turn off the power in that area.
e. PAPD Desk reports to other responders-“Three-three is reporting that
there is a cave in, B-4 level, at the World Trade Center, copy? A possibility of people trapped."
Brief Summary: Again not only is a fire not reported, not only that no fireball is described. Officer 33 is responding to the damage that occured after the explosive device was detonated. This account is perhaps highlights largest amount of structural damage in the sub-levels recorded by the police. What is described is actually two cave-ins, one at B-4 level and one at the PATH plaza platform. You should be asking yourself, how NIST concluded an unreported fireball caused a cave in at B-4 and the PATH subway plaza platform.
Port Authority Transcript
Source: www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-transcript010.pdf

6. Male caller to 310B Fire Command Radio Channel X-Security
a. Location-Near or on the Path Train
b. “Please let me get through! The PATH train, something is going on at the PATH train! Can you ask somebody to make an announcement, 310B, people are running out of the PATH train, copy!
c. Male-“Ten-four. (Inaudible) to 63.” Female-“Yes.
d. Male-“See if you can make an announcement with PAPD with regards to people panicking in the PATH trains! Female-“That’s people by the PATH train, copy.”
Brief Summary: The device that caused the explosion apparently caused the cave in/partial collapse at B-4 basement level and the PATH Plaza platform, even to the point of causing people to panic and get off the train, resulting in the phone calls from PAPD 33 and a call to 310B Fire command. This call like the others mentions no fireball and no secondary fires.
Port Authority Transcript
Source: http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-transcript048.pdf

7. Marvin Bush, Brother of George W. Bush
a. Location: subway on the way to a meeting
b. Subway train comes to a stop, no idea what happened.
c. They were evacuated, single-file, onto a platform, and then out of the subway. No mention
of where they were evacuated.
d. Marvin said there were smoke and debris everywhere and was told to get out of there.
Brief Summary: Subway comes to a halt and is evacuated. It is unclear if the smoke and debris is in the subway or outside the subway. I'm lead to believe it was in the subway. The smoke he refers to if from the North Tower impact zone would not be everywhere but 100 plus stories high. The debris could have come from the impact but we are not told where Marvin exited the subway. However, the above PA transcript does report a cave-in which would be consistent with debris in the subway. I included this information as it supports the calls about the PATH trains that were disrupted as a result of the detonation of the explosive device. It is highly unlikely that Marvin exited on the PATH Plaza Platfrom that suffered the cave-in.
Source: Reflections: Life After The Whitehouse, by Barbara Bush

Many of the communication transcripts above follow a the same pattern of an explosion heard or reported, human injury is then reported, and finally the damage to the structure is described. The most significant damage to the structure being a cave-in at B-4 that caused the people on the PATH trains to panic and flee. This follows the logical squence that points to the sound of explosions coming from an explosive device, not a fireball as the NIST has concluded.

It is impossible for the excuse the official story holds that a jet fuel based fire ball traveled down the elevator shaft in the North Tower, into the subbasement levels, particularly sublevel 4 and the PATH Plaza, and caused the human injuries and structural damage witnessed and reported to the police. The analysis below proves without doubt that a fuel air explosive could not have been the cause of the events described above. This leads to one conclusion: terrorists used an explosive device in the sublevels of WTC: North Tower.

Aside from actually testing for explosive residue which no Federal Agency did, the above accounts and the fireball analysis below conclusively prove that an explosive device was used in the sublevel structure of World Trade Center, North Tower.

What the device was, how it was placed, and its purpose is speculation. Was it used to destroy the elevators thereby increasing the difficulty in rescue? Could it have been a “divide and conquer” tactic used to hamper firefighter’s responses by sending teams to the basements and to the point of impact? Or was it used to weaken and damage the strongest portion of the building, the 47 core columns that were anchored to the ground? As any demolition expert will tell you, if you want to assist in bringing a building down, you have to weaken or destroy its base. Because of the location of this explosive device, an investigation into the security measures, personel, and delievery schedules should have been a fundamental part of the FBI's investigation. At this point and time, I am unaware if the FBI examined this event in the basement of the North Tower.

The reader is left to hypothesis why FEMA, NIST, and the 9/11 Commission choose to ignore the evidence of an explosive device used in the basement levels of the North Tower and decided to issue forth the excuse of a fireball.

The following analysis points out in detail why a fireball from jet fuel is an impossible excuse for the testimony above.

-----
WTC1’s Main Freight Shaft Was
Not Rocked to the Basement by an FAE!
By Bsbray of studyof911.com
First, let us establish that there was only one elevator per building with access from the basement levels all the way up to the 108th floor.
From NIST NCSTAR 1-1, Design, Construction, and Maintenance of Structural and Life Safety Systems, page xxxvii (page 39 of the PDF file):


Elevators were the primary mode of routine ingress and egress from the towers for tens of thousands of people daily. In order to minimize the total floor space needed for elevators, each tower was divided vertically into three zones by skylobbies, which served to distribute passengers among express and local elevators. In this way, the local elevators within a zone were placed on top of one another within a common shaft. Local elevators serving the lower portion of a zone were terminated to return to the space occupied by those shafts to leasable tenant space. People transferred from express elevators to local elevators at the skylobbies which were located on the 44th and 78th floors in both towers. Each tower had 99 passenger and 7 freight elevators, all located within the core of the building.
From the same document, page xlviii (page 50 of the PDF file):

There were 99 passenger elevators in each tower, arranged in three vertical zones to move occupants in stages to skylobbies on the 44th and 78th floors. These were arranged as express (generally larger cars that moved at higher speeds) and local elevators in an innovative system first introduced in WTC 1 and WTC 2. There were 8 express elevators from the concourse to the 44th floor and 10 express elevators from the concourse to the 78th floor as well as 24 local elevators per zone, which served groups of floors in those zones. There were seven freight elevators, only one of which served all floors. All elevators had been upgraded to incorporate firefighter emergency operation per American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) A17.1 and Local Law 5 (1973).

From an online reproduction of a 1967 Otis Bulletin article from the Otis Elevator Company, the company contracted to install all of the WTC Tower elevators in 1967:
In addition to normal freight service one freight elevator in each of the towers will serve a total of 112 stops from the fifth basement to the 108th floor. It will rise 1,387 feet (422.8 meters) – 400 feet (122 meters) more than the former record rise in the Empire State Building.

And finally, from NIST NCSTAR 1-7, Occupant Behavior, Egress, and Emergency Communications, page 34 (page 72 of the PDF file):
In addition to the passenger elevators, there were seven freight elevators in each tower; most served a particular zone, while Car 50 served every floor.
So we conclude from all of the above only one elevator per building had access from the fifth basement level to the 108th floor, and this was Car 50. These would be the “main” freight elevators in each tower.

USA Today published an article by Gregg Zoroya titled “The Griffiths”, the online version of which was last updated September 10th, 2002, on two survivors of the WTC disaster in New York. The two survivors were husband and wife, and were also both elevator operators for the North Tower, WTC1, the same building relevant in the testimonies of Lt. Walsh, Phillip Morelli, William Rodriguez, and Mike Pecoraro.

The husband, Arturo Griffith, operated WTC1 elevator Car 50, which USA Today further describes as, “the big freight car going from the six-level basement to the 108th floor.”
[The Griffiths] were both operating elevators in the north tower on Sept. 11. Arturo was running 50A, the big freight car going from the six-level basement to the 108th floor. When American Airlines Flight 11 struck at 8:46 a.m., Arturo and a co-worker were heading from the second-level basement to the 49th floor. Like his wife, who had just closed the doors on a passenger elevator leaving the 78th floor, Arturo heard a sudden whistling sound and the impact. Cables were severed and Arturo's car plunged into free fall.
"The only thing I remember saying was 'Oh, God, Oh, God, I'm going to die,' " he says, recalling how he tried to protect his head as the car plummeted.
The emergency brakes caught after 15 or 16 floors. The imploding elevator door crushed Arturo's right knee and broke the tibia below it. His passenger escaped injury.
There is a one-story discrepancy of this elevator’s range with Otis Elevator Company’s 1967 Bulletin article (six vs. five accessible basement levels), but it remains clear that the main freight elevator is indeed the elevator relevant to this article.
Though the door to Mr. Griffith’s elevator was knocked out when the safety brakes caught the free-falling elevator, there was no fuel-air explosion (FAE) down this elevator shaft.

Remember that such an event is hypothesized to have not only traveled hundreds of feet down this elevator shaft into the basement, but to have also caused major destruction in the basement levels of WTC1 as reported by Rodriguez, Pecoraro, Morelli, and their co-workers, including a destroyed basement machine shop, and blown-out, lower-level elevators accessing the lobby.

This contrasts with the account of Mr. Griffith’s wife, Carmen:
A full elevator had just left the 78th floor, and Carmen was about to carry up six or seven stragglers. The plane struck as the doors of her elevator closed. They could hear debris smash into the top of the car; then the elevator cracked open, and flames poured in. Carmen jammed her fingers between the closed doors, pulled them partly open and held them as passengers clambered over and under her 5-foot-6 frame to escape.
Before finally throwing herself out onto the lobby floor, she glanced back to be sure the elevator was empty. That was when fire scorched her face with second- and third-degree burns, and literally welded her hooped right earring to her neck. Her hands were badly burned.
Note that Mrs. Griffith was not on the elevator that had access to the basement levels. Also note that, though she was burned, there was not a blast characteristic of an explosion that would cause such destruction as what was witnessed in the WTC1 basements, or else Mrs. Griffith surely would not have survived.

Car 6
The following excerpt comes again from NIST NCSTAR 1-7, page 34 (page 72 of the PDF file).
In addition to the passenger elevators, there were seven freight elevators in each tower; most served a particular zone, while Car 50 served every floor.
• Car #5: B1-5, 6, 9-40, 44
• Car #6: B1-5, 44, 75, 77-107 (Dual-use express, see below)
[…]
There were two express elevators (#6 and #7) to Windows on the World (and related conference rooms and banquet facilities) in WTC 1 and two to the observation deck in WTC 2. There were five local elevators in each building: three that brought people from the subterranean levels to the lobby, one that ran between floors 106 and 110, and one that ran between floors 43 and 44, serving the cafeteria from the skylobby. All elevators had been upgraded to incorporate firefighter emergency operation requirements.
So we see that another elevator, Car 6, ran from the impacted floors of WTC1 to sublevel B1, but no further.

From page 122 of the same document (page 160 of the PDF file):
For an elevator’s cables to be cut and result in dropping the car to the bottom of the shaft, the cables would need to have been in the aircraft impact debris path, floors 93 through 98 in WTC 1 or floors 78 through 83 in WTC 2. Inspection of the elevator riser diagram and architectural floor plans for WTC 1 shows that the following elevators met these criteria: cars 81 through 86 (Bank B) and 87 through 92 (Bank C), local cars in Zone III; car 50, the freight elevator, and car 6, the Zone III shuttle. … Cars 6 and 50 could have fallen all the way to the pit in the sub-basement level, and car 50 in WTC 1 was reported to have done so.


Here, NIST states explicitly that elevator Car 6, along with Car 50, were the sole elevators of WTC1 with access to the basements from the impacted floors of WTC1. And as noted in the previous excerpt from NCSTAR 1-7, Car 6 only reached sublevel B1, the uppermost basement level, while explosions and other destructive events were observed on B1 as well as below B1, on B2 and possibly lower (see the above testimonies of Rodriguez and Pecoraro).

Conclusions:
All of the above information should bring us to the logical conclusion that a fuel-air explosion did not travel hundreds of feet down the main freight elevator shaft of WTC1, from the impacted floors to the basements, to cause structural damage to the basement floors and lobby. Car 50 was the only elevator with access from the impacted floors of WTC1 to the sublevels B2 and below, and its operator survived, having experienced no explosions or fireballs down the main freight shaft.
That such a fireball could have traveled down Car 6 has not specifically been ruled out by the above information, but it could not have extended beyond sublevel B1, whereas explosive events caused much destruction on lower floors.
Also, considering an FAE traveling down this shaft sufficient in strength to destroy a machine shop in the basement levels (as per Pecoraro’s testimony), even if this elevator had access to this floor, and cause elevators servicing the lowest floors to blow out (as per Walsh’s testimony), as well as additional structure damage in the basements including multiple cave-ins, it seems extremely unlikely, if not impossible, that the shaft itself, and neighboring floors all the way down would not be similarly destroyed by the massive overpressures accompanying this FAE down the building. Put simply, an FAE moving down an elevator shaft and causing severe damage in basement levels with massive force, could also be expected to destroy the shaft itself, especially since this shaft would be a very confined area, and its wall supposedly not reinforced by any concrete in the walls or etc.
The visible fuel-air explosions caused by the impacts visibly failed to destroy even the outer perimeter columns of the impacted floors, or to even remove their aluminum cladding, which was only fastened on and not solidly connected. Only the plane impacts themselves severed perimeter columns or caused such damage to the aluminum cladding. There is no evidence of great overpressures from the fireball itself if it traveled down the shafts either in the interior or exterior.
How, then, could a fireball that failed to remove this aluminum cladding in its immediate blast, travel down over a thousand feet of an unprotected elevator shaft and maintain sufficient overpressures to shatter concrete and steel fire doors, and cause a cave in at level B-4 and a cave in in the PATH plaza platform?
It has already been shown that the operator of elevator 50, the main freight, did not even experience a fireball, let alone life-threatening overpressures. This fits logically with the lack of exterior damage shown above.

More realistic explanations of the WTC1 basement events, including the use of secondary explosive devices, should be considered.

[10] This document is hosted by NIST at http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-1.pdf. Alternately, a cache of the document is hosted at Studyof911.com at http://www.studyof911.com/cached/NIST/NISTNCSTAR1-1.pdf.
This page can be found at http://www.otis.com/otis150/section/1,2344,ARC2495_CLI41_RES1_SEC5,00.html. A cache is hosted at Studyof911.com at http://www.studyof911.com/cached/1,2344,ARC2495_CLI41_RES1_SEC5,00.html.
This documented is hosted by NIST at http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-7.pdf. A cache of this document is hosted at Studyof911.com at http://www.studyof911.com/cached/NIST/NISTNCSTAR1-7.pdf.
This page can be found at http://www.usatoday.com/life/sept11/2002-09-10-surivivor-griffiths_x.htm. A cache is hosted at Studyof911.com at http://www.studyof911.com/cached/2002-09-10-surivivor-griffiths_x.htm.
Source: “bsbray” of Studyof911.com, Oct. 31, 2006. Last updated Feb. 17, 2007 (added photos and more technical data). Drawn heavily from the research of AboveTopSecret.com forum member “Valhall”, with additional helpful feedback from “ashm"

Rebuttals to the above account must be prepared to show how a fireball had enough explosive energy after impact to travel as far as down as sublevel 4 and cause the damage witnessed to the surroundings and the people and yet not kill Arturo Griffith and his wife in two seperate elevators. Arturo was in elevator car 50 the only elevator that traveled the from the impact zone to the deepest part of the basement. His wife's elevator traveled to the impact zone down to Sub level B-1. She was terribly burned in her elevator but it was very near the impact zone. In all of his accounts, he does not mention being burned nor does he witness any fireball. I've found only one referennce to a fireball from Arturo but it is unsourced. If the reader has access to this source, the author would greatly appreciate it.

[JimBenArm]

Holy crap! Is this "post the longest thing you can find" day on the forum? Every other post seems to be 300 paragraphs long.

[CHF]

Swing, do you plan on asking any of those burn victims what they were burned by?

[Kent1]

Swing, do you plan on asking any of those burn victims what they were burned by?

There are also some good videos that would also help provide more detail to the discussion. I would recommend Trapped in the Towers: The Elevators of 911

http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=77404

[Gravy]

Swing, before I proceed with my critique, I'm going to ask two things of you.

1) Please define "structural damage."

2) Please justify this statement of yours. I have twice called it a straw man. Do you know why?

"Keep in mind as you continue to read the accounts, that a single fireball from the impact zone almost 80 floors above traveled down a single elevator shaft, failed to kill or even burn the elevator operator, Arturo Griffith, but causes all of this damage in the various levels of the basement."



Oh, I will add this point while I'm here. You said,

c) Sees white smoke, and reports the smell of kerosene.
d) The smell he thought coming from perhaps a burning car in the parking garage above them.
e) Kerosene smell, not a kerosene fire. Burning Kerosene does not produce white smoke.



I sure wish you had read the other accounts of white smoke, or otherwise done your homework. Kerosene vapors are white.

You can easily tell if your stove is too hot to light with kerosene. If you put kerosene in the burner and it vaporizes making a lot of white smoke, then DON'T LIGHT IT! That white smoke is explosive. http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me12.html



87th floor: Jet fuel on floor
It was pandemonium and total confusion for the occupants and visitors on the 87th floor. Bright white smoke was filling the hallways and liquid sparks were snaking along the floor – the jet fuel that had not exploded. http://brainmind.com/AmericaAttacked1.html


87th- 85th floors: heavy white smoke
Adam Mayblum: 87: We checked the halls. The smoke was thick and white and did not smell like I imagined smoke should smell. ...On the 85th floor a brave associate of mine and I headed back up to our office to drag out my partner who stayed behind. There was no air, just white smoke.
http://www.greatdreams.com/trade_day9.htm



EDIT: I forgot Ed McCabe's account of the white smoke:

B4 level: blast 30 seconds after building movement.

Edward McCabe, building engineer, describes blast at Turner Construction's Field Office in the tower core.

I was in the refrigeration plant in tower 1 sub basement 4. I was passing through when I felt a slight shifting of the building. I froze right where I stood and listened....nothing.. about 30 seconds past and to my left about 30 feet from me was a stairway leading up to a door. this door explodes off its hinges and white smoke came into the plant.

And in the south tower:

68th floor Charles Caraher
Then I headed for the other emergency exit. I reached another door and, as I started to touch the handle to check for heat, I realized I could just barely see through the window on the door. What I saw was a lot of debris and a thick white mist. http://911digitalarchive.org/stories/details/20315

61st floor
Linda Raisch-Lopez
I reached the 61st floor when there was a tremendous explosion. The building swayed back and forth. I can't even describe the terror I felt as I was thrown into the wall. I screamed and screamed and screamed. A man grabbed me and held me until I calmed down. The lights flickered, there was white smoke everywhere and I saw that a large piece of concrete had fallen on the stairway landing. ...I knew it would collapse. It was inevitable. The building was vibrating and I ran faster and faster. http://www.911digitalarchive.org/stories/details/9348

[Calcas]

Swing, do you plan on asking any of those burn victims what they were burned by?

Irrelevant.

(In my best Lyte Trip voice)

"They were mistaken."

Or even worse.

"They were fooled."

[T.A.M.]

Swing:

Just a note...I think it is poor form to try to dictate what a rebuttal must contain or accomplish unless you are the one providing the rebuttal.

TAM:)

[Gravy]

Holy crap! Is this "post the longest thing you can find" day on the forum? Every other post seems to be 300 paragraphs long.Don't worry. It's astonishing how many facts he got wrong even after I provided them in my paper. He simply didn't pay attention at all. That's quite disappointing. He clearly doesn't give a damn about wasting people's time.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Thursday, March 8, 2007
The Case For Explosives At The World Trade Center: North Tower Sublevel

<snip>
1. The NIST did not attempt to explain the reason for a global collapse nor consider the explosive device hypothesis because they saw no evidence. Does that make the existence of explosive devices(ED) invalid? No.
If there is no evidence of explosive devices, it is reasonable to exclude them from consideration. Consider "The NIST . . . nor consider the Invisible Pink Unicorn hypothesis because they saw no evidence. Does that make the existence of Invisible Pink Unicorns invalid?" All that can be said is that there is no evidence to support the explosive device hypothesis, as attempting to prove a negative is generally a logical fallacy.

2. NIST provided no evidence to support their view that the collapse of upper floors led to a progressive collapse or more importantly a global collapse.
This is trivial to support on your part; show that global collapse would not result from the collapse of the upper floors. Please show your work.

We have no idea if the event in the basement assisted in the collape of the North Tower.
This is begging the question. You are assuming that there was a seperate event in the basement that may have contributed to the collapse.

3. The NIST made a conscience decision not to test for explosive residue at the WTC complex
How do you know they did not do so?

despite the overwhelming evidence that something occurred in the sublevels of WTC North Tower.
This is begging the question. You are assuming that there was a seperate event in the basement that may have contributed to the collapse.

<snip>
4. The historical record of terrorism against America is another valid reason to explore the ED hypothesis. I'm sure you are all aware of the 1993 WTC attack using a truck bomb in the subbasement at the WTC. If terrorists could use this tactic of placing an explosive device in their target once, isn’t it reasonable to suggest they might try that tactic again, especially when combined with the use of planes?
Is there any evidence suggesting that any methods of attack, aside from the planes, were employed that day?

<snip>and in the basement sublevels and centered around the core where the elevator shafts were located.
Begging the question, as above.

There is some testimony supporting an explosion taking place in the basement prior to impact,
Please see post #111 in this thread.

however, the timing of the event is not the premise of this examination, only the fact that an explosive event did occur that can not be attributed to a fireball from jet fuel.
Begging the question, and please review post #111 in this thread.

My first piece of evidence for arguing for an explosive device is the logical sequence of events that followed the explosive sound. Numerous things can sound like explosions. I do not dispute this. However, it is the reaction and change of the surroundings, the injuries to people, and their reactions and thoughts following the sound of the explosion which points to a device in the basement sublevels. All of the accounts below follow this locigcal sequence.
Please see post #111, it addresses not only that loud noises are not necessarily explosions, but also that explosions are not necessarily cause by explosive devices.

<snip>
Numerous witnesses in the sublevels have stated on record regarding the damage in the substructure of WTC-North Tower. To avoid the accusation of cherry picking or quote mining, I have provided the relevant link after each account. Also with each witness I have tried to use their words verbatim in the description of events that they experienced.
Anecdotal evidence is trumped by empirical evidence.

<snip>
Brief summary of experience: An explosive sound heard, followed by white smoke with massive damage on multiple floors, a parking garage destroyed, with burned and injured victims. All of this damage reported by this witness but no mention of fire damage or one iota of a fireball. There is also no soot reported in the lobby from the fireball from the plane that supposedly caused the damage. Keep in mind as you continue to read the accounts, that a single fireball from the impact zone almost 80 floors above traveled down a single elevator shaft, failed to kill or even burn the elevator operator, Arturo Griffith, but causes all of this damage in the various levels of the basement.
Source: Chief Engineer http://www.chiefengineer.org/article.cfm?seqnum1=1029
A FAE does not cause damage by fire, as with any explosion it causes damage by overpressure.

<snip>
All of this damage people and the structure but not a single mention of the raging fireball that NIST states caused all of this damage.
To reiterate, a FAE is an explosion, this is functionally different from a large ball/plume/cloud of flame.

You really need to read up on what an FAE is and re-evaluate the evidence you are presenting in that light.

[beachnut]

I'm not arguing William's timing of impacts. I'm arguing that an explosive device was used by terrorists in the basement of WTC North Tower.
You have zero evidence. You have no concussion damage to humans. You know, blast effects. You know, William would be dragging out people with lung blast problems, abdominal hemorrhage and perforation, eye rupture, concussion. Where are the people damaged by a blast.

Explosions in confined spaces, like a Building, are associated with greater morbidity and mortality. Oh. Got some dead people from blast effects in the confined space of the basement? Or do you have damage that is due to a very large aircraft impact?

Just a question. Is it required that all truthers have zero ability to reserach?

[Quad4_72]

Thursday, March 8, 2007
2. Male Caller on Portable Device call to PAPD Officer Brady
a. Location- B-1 level
b. “We had a ….minor explosion (inaudible). Or a major explosion.
Brief Summary: Again, the fireball and expected secondary fires are missing.
Port Authority Transcript
Source: http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-...nscript010.pdf (http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-transcript010.pdf)



I randomly went to the middle of your novel and took a look at the first quote I saw. Do you have any idea the context behind this quote? You are using it as evidence that there was no fireball but you don't know the context of the quote. How do you know it was not someone just reporting what another person told him? Maybe he just saw a little bit of the aftermath and assumed explosion? How do you know that he was in any position whatsoever to make a valid assumption? Did he SEE the fireball or explosion? Swing, all of your eyewitness reports are like this. The ones Gravy uses in his paper are from people who were actually there and saw the fireball. Plus there injuries are consistent with a fireball. It is actually a little dishonest that you would take those port authority quotes and try to use them as evidence that there was a bomb in the basement.

[bje]

Sorry but I must retire for the evening. I will check back tommorrow.

For those who aren't familiar with me from SLC, I have no need to lie to support my contention. I will admit if I am wrong or shown to be wrong from the evidence. Again, I have no need to lie, so there is no reason to think so.


But there is every reason to ask you why you have changed your story from the chat room session of the Rob Bishop show the other night. Then, you were going to tell us how the whole plot transpired.

Rather curious change, SwingDangler, wouldn't you agree?

[CHF]

But there is every reason to ask you why you have changed your story from the chat room session of the Rob Bishop show the other night. Then, you were going to tell us how the whole plot transpired.

I think he's trying to appear rational here and so he doesn't wanna jump right into the complete twoofer nuttiness.

That's why he's saying the basement bomb was set off by "terrorists" yet refuses to say who he thinks those terrorists are.

[Quad4_72]

I think he's trying to appear rational here and so he doesn't wanna jump right into the complete twoofer nuttiness.

That's why he's saying the basement bomb was set off by "terrorists" yet refuses to say who he thinks those terrorists are.

I have to say I am with you on this one CHF. I am pretty sure that Swing is FULL BLOWN twoofer and has yet to admit it to us. We have seen it time and time again. A twoofer will come in and pretend that they are on the fence and "Just asking questions". Of course when the answers are presented, the twoofer ignores them and his full blown woo shows through.

[CHF]

I have to say I am with you on this one CHF. I am pretty sure that Swing is FULL BLOWN twoofer and has yet to admit it to us. We have seen it time and time again. A twoofer will come in and pretend that they are on the fence and "Just asking questions". Of course when the answers are presented, the twoofer ignores them and his full blown woo shows through.

I'm not pretty sure. I know. He's a regular on SLC. Demolitions, chem-trails, JFK...you name it.

I dunno why he's so reluctant to just come out and say what he thinks.

[Quad4_72]

I'm not pretty sure. I know. He's a regular on SLC. Demolitions, chem-trails, JFK...you name it.

I dunno why he's so reluctant to just come out and say what he thinks.

Whats his name on there? I am a regular on SLC.

[JimBenArm]

Whats his name on there? I am a regular on SLC.
The same. I've seen him in the comments over there. Not sure if he's on the forums there or not. I hazarded that place just a few times, then came back here. It's a little too wild-west for me there!

[Quad4_72]

The same. I've seen him in the comments over there. Not sure if he's on the forums there or not. I hazarded that place just a few times, then came back here. It's a little too wild-west for me there!

Haha. It definitely is an anything goes forum! But I thought CHF was refferring to him being on the forums cause I have never seen him in there.

[pomeroo]

Just trying to coax a little honesty out of you, that's all. :)



People who have caught Swingie's act on SLC are ROTFLTAO.

[pomeroo]

[quote=Gravy;2632158]Swing, before I proceed with my critique, I'm going to ask two things of you.

1) Please define "structural damage."

2) Please justify this statement of yours. I have twice called it a straw man. Do you know why?





Oh, I will add this point while I'm here. You said,





I sure wish you had read the other accounts of white smoke, or otherwise done your homework. Kerosene vapors are white.



EDIT: I forgot Ed McCabe's account of the white smoke:



And in the south tower:





You forgot to ask Swing Dumpster what cordite does. He loves that question so much that he just can't bear to answer it.

[Swing Dangler]

Evidence: the logical squence of events pointing to an explosive device: explosive sound/human damage/ structure & environment damage/historical tactics of terrorists around the globe/ and the event reminded many witnesses of 1993 attack/
. Is there any evidence suggesting that any methods of attack, aside from the planes, were employed that day?
Aside from a survivor actually seeing a bomb or any agency testing for explosive residue, there is no direct evidence.
However, the FBI apparently thought differently. The FBI's working hypothesis: at the same time two planes hit the buildiing that the FBI most likely thinks a car or truck packed with explosives underneath the buildings which also exploded at the same time brought the buidlings down. That is the working theory at this point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGE6GNKNpPA
A very interesting newsreport indeed.

You are using it as evidence that there was no fireball but you don't know the context of the quote. That is the problem with pulling something randomly out of the paper. The transcripts are used to support the logical sequence of events that occured in the basement as well as point out damage that a fireball supposedly caused.

You have no concussion damage to humans. You know, blast effects. You know, William would be dragging out people with lung blast problems, abdominal hemorrhage and perforation, eye rupture, concussion. Where are the people damaged by a blast. You understand the assumptions you are making correct? Such as the type of device, the relative location of the device to victims, rooms, walls, equipement, etc in the impacted levels, etc. If we had those answers, then your statement might have relevance to the topic. Perhaps you should read all of the accounts from as many sources as possible before commenting on the damage to humans.

FAE does not cause damage by fire, as with any explosion it causes damage by overpressure.
From an expert:
Weapons Aspects of thermobaric weaponry
Dr Anna E Wildegger-Gaissmaier, PhD
Target effects and countermeasures
"Box 2 shows the injury mechanisms for detonation of an explosive charge in the open. The mechanisms are the same for high explosives and thermobaric explosives. Thermal injuries usually occur close to the origin of the explosion. The lethal range for burn injuries is defined by the size of the fireball. The lethal area for blast injuries overlaps and exceeds the area of thermal injuries. As pressure effects decline over distance, the blast injury lethality also decreases. The lethal range for fragment/blunt trauma events extends far beyond the lethal range for blast. "
I think you understand now that FAE does cause damage by fire.

Anecdotal evidence is trumped by empirical evidence.
I would accept this if you can show that fire after detonation upon impact traveled down the shaft with car 50A to level 4 to cause a cave in at B-4 and on the PATH Plaza platform but not kill Arturo Griffith in the elevator car. Not only that, provide the figures to support the overpressure and the
And show that a fire traveled down shaft 6 to b-1 and cause the damage there but not kill Aruturo's wife.
And if not fire then a kerosene vapor cloud...In the NIST snip below I didn't read where they determined what the % of vapor to air was to ignite a vapor cloud so far below the towers.
1. Is that somewhere in the report to support the fire or vapor explosion from jet fuel in the basement as far as B-4?

This is trivial to support on your part; show that global collapse would not result from the collapse of the upper floors. Please show your work. Trivial of course is an opinion as New Structural Engineer called for that work to show global collapse. The event did assist in the collapse. How little or how great of assistance would depend upon computer models that take into consideration an explosive event in the basement, and we all know NIST isn't entertaing that idea despite the FBI's original working hypothesis.

This is begging the question. You are assuming that there was a seperate event in the basement that may have contributed to the collapse. The premise is that the event was an explosive device. The event you are supporting is either a fireball or vapor event. Depending on which you choose to accept, the event did contribute to the collapse. How much or how little is dependent upon anaylysis by a controlled demolition specialist or a structural engineer. After all, multiple cave ins, rooms destroyed, and walls that are destroyed do reduce resistance no matter how insignificant.

Please see post #111, it addresses not only that loud noises are not necessarily explosions, but also that explosions are not necessarily cause by explosive devices. Had you read my post in full, you would already know that I agree about sounds equating to explosions etc. But you cherry picked a quote to make this point yet again. Although I do appreciate the logical squence you posted, it was completely unnecessary because in the analysis you left out multiple parts to the whole.

Please read my paper for all the accounts of kerosene smell throughout the towers. Thankyou I have and I'm only interested in the sublevels. We both know Mike Pecoraro thought it was from a car in the garage above him. Also notice the sequence of events. After smelling the kerosene, he reports NO EXPLOSION but does witness destruction of the machine shop.
In Ed's account notice the squence: he sees the white smoke after the explosion in the stairwell. But reports no explosion from the white smoke after the explosion. Yet you contend it is kerosene vapor which is on the verge of exploding. Your own source on "white smoke" states that if you see white smoke, don't light the kerosene heater because it is kerosene vapor and it will explode. Yet in the two above accounts, they see white smoke after an explosion.
2. What event heated the basement elevator, shafts, and stairwells as far as B-4 to the point of turning kerosene to vapor, ie. white smoke? I would be anxious to hear your answer for this.

I do not think you can use "white smoke" in the basement as evidence of kerosene vapor traveling down the shafts unignited AFTER explosions.

t's astonishing how many facts he got wrong even after I provided them in my paper. He simply didn't pay attention at all. That's quite disappointing. He clearly doesn't give a damn about wasting people's time.
3. If you get time, could you please list what facts I got wrong so that I may correct them in my research? A sort of adhoc peer review? And I'm serious on this issue despite the bickering witnessed at SLC comments as I do respect your body of knoweldge and research despite our opposing view points on certain issues.

If so , I would be happy to do the same to your own paper which has several errors as well.
Swing, all of your eyewitness reports are like this. The ones Gravy uses in his paper are from people who were actually there and saw the fireball.
If you read my anaysis you will see that we use many of the same witnesses. As I've already stated, I would be more than happy to list the errors I've found in the testimony segement alone. I won't of course list them, unless they need to be listed as my point here is not to attack other people's work, but to have my own work attacked.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Aside from a survivor actually seeing a bomb or any agency testing for explosive residue, there is no direct evidence.
However, the FBI apparently thought differently. The FBI's working hypothesis: at the same time two planes hit the buildiing that the FBI most likely thinks a car or truck packed with explosives underneath the buildings which also exploded at the same time brought the buidlings down. That is the working theory at this point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGE6GNKNpPA
A very interesting newsreport indeed.
Since, apparently, the blatently obvious needs to be stated for you; a news report, on 9/11, discussing a working hypothesis by the FBI does not consistute empirical evidence that other methods of attack were employed that day.

From an expert:
Weapons Aspects of thermobaric weaponry
Dr Anna E Wildegger-Gaissmaier, PhD
Target effects and countermeasures
"Box 2 shows the injury mechanisms for detonation of an explosive charge in the open. The mechanisms are the same for high explosives and thermobaric explosives. Thermal injuries usually occur close to the origin f the explosion. The lethal range for burn injuries is defined by the size of the fireball. The lethal area for blast injuries overlaps and exceeds the area of thermal injuries. As pressure effects decline over distance, the blast injury lethality also decreases. The lethal range for fragment/blunt trauma events extends far beyond the lethal range for blast. "
I think you understand now that FAE does cause damage by fire.

1. Source? Actual link that is.
2. You do understand that at any point close enough for fire damage to occur there must be overpressure damage and that overpressure damage "extends far beyond the lethal range" of the blast?

I would accept this if you can show that fire after detonation upon impact traveled down the shaft with car 50A to level 4 to cause a cave in at B-4 and on the PATH Plaza platform but not kill Arturo Griffith in the elevator car. Not only that, provide the figures to support the overpressure and the
And show that a fire traveled down shaft 6 to b-1 and cause the damage there but not kill Aruturo's wife.
And if not fire then a kerosene vapor cloud...In the NIST snip below I didn't read where they determined what the % of vapor to air was to ignite a vapor cloud so far below the towers.
1. Is that somewhere in the report to support the fire or vapor explosion from jet fuel in the basement as far as B-4?
Stop trying to shift the burden of proof. Provide empirical evidence supporting your interpretation of the quotes you provide.

Trivial of course is an opinion as New Structural Engineer called for that work to show global collapse. The event did assist in the collapse. How little or how great of assistance would depend upon computer models that take into consideration an explosive event in the basement, and we all know NIST isn't entertaing that idea despite the FBI's original working hypothesis.
So, your can not, or will not, do the work?

The premise is that the event was an explosive device. The event you are supporting is either a fireball or vapor event. Depending on which you choose to accept, the event did contribute to the collapse. How much or how little is dependent upon anaylysis by a controlled demolition specialist or a structural engineer.
Okay, so where's the analysis by your structural engineer?


Had you read my post in full, you would already know that I agree about sounds equating to explosions etc. But you cherry picked a quote to make this point yet again. Although I do appreciate the logical squence you posted, it was completely unnecessary because in the analysis you left out multiple parts to the whole.
No, the point needed to be made again, because, apparently, it still hasn't sunk in to your skull yet. You are making illogical leaps in reasoning, and you are not substantiating your interpretation of witness testimony with empirical evidence.

[CHF]

However, the FBI apparently thought differently. The FBI's working hypothesis: at the same time two planes hit the buildiing that the FBI most likely thinks a car or truck packed with explosives underneath the buildings which also exploded at the same time brought the buidlings down. That is the working theory at this point.

When is the video clip from? What's the date?

I see nothing of the sort on USAToday or the FBI's site.

[Gravy]

Still no response to my post, Swing?

[Gravy]

Bump.

[Swing Dangler]

Since, apparently, the blatently obvious needs to be stated for you; a news report, on 9/11, discussing a working hypothesis by the FBI does not consistute empirical evidence that other methods of attack were employed that day.


1. Source? Actual link that is.
2. You do understand that at any point close enough for fire damage to occur there must be overpressure damage and that overpressure damage "extends far beyond the lethal range" of the blast?


Stop trying to shift the burden of proof. Provide empirical evidence supporting your interpretation of the quotes you provide.


So, your can not, or will not, do the work?


Okay, so where's the analysis by your structural engineer?


No, the point needed to be made again, because, apparently, it still hasn't sunk in to your skull yet. You are making illogical leaps in reasoning, and you are not substantiating your interpretation of witness testimony with empirical evidence.


As far as empirical evidence goes, it was destroyed on 9/11/01, so I am using the empirical method to arrive at my hypothesis. I am also using assumptions in my of analysis much like NIST did when the evaluated the fire damage to the interior of the towers. There is absence of empirical evidence because it was destroyed, however, that does not disprove the theory.

1. The WTC had a parking garage under WTC: North Tower
2. The damage was in the basement and destroyed a parking garage as well as multiple cave ins.
3. The working hypothesis of the FBI was a car or truck bomb packed with explosives underneath the towers.
4. The witness suffered human injury consistent from an explosive device of unknown origin and location.
5. Therefore I assume that a car or truck was a method of attack.
I can't do the work as I am not qualified to do the work. I will wait for the engineering community to validate or invalidate the computer models of global collapse if ever created and released.
6. The I can't find the link, however, if you google her, you can find the paper she wrote.
7. Please point out where arriving at an explosive device for the destruction of the basement is an illogical leap in reasoing considering the logical sequence of events witnesses experienced, the historical record of terrorism against, and the lack of empirical evidence supporting the fireball theory, not only that, empirical evidence supporting the lack of a fireball with such destructive capabilities.

Now may I ask:
Question for all:

8. What would it take to convince you that an explosive device was used in the sublevels of the basement of WTC: North Tower?

[gumboot]

8. What would it take to convince you that an explosive device was used in the sublevels of the basement of WTC: North Tower?


Eye witness testimony that supports the contention.

Assuming you're talking explosive device at moment of collapse, an explanation for how an explosion in the basement managed to cause the tower to collapse without destroying the lower core, and and explanation for why this explosion was not captured on the multitude of video cameras recording in the area.

Forensic evidence of explosives.

An explanation for how an explosion in the basement produced phenomena seen on 9/11 as part of the collapse sequence (a sequence that is not speculative, but supported by primary evidence (both physical and eyewitness) as well as forensic evidence and modelling evidence).

-Gumboot

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

<snip>
4. The witness suffered human injury consistent from an explosive device of unknown origin and location.
No, the most you can say is that they suffered injury consistent with an explosion. Go reread post 111.


5. Therefore I assume that a car or truck was a method of attack. Which introduces confirmation bias and starts you down the path of logical fallacies. Have you bothered to follow up with the FBI and ask them why they dropped their working hypothesis you outlined above?

7. Please point out where arriving at an explosive device for the destruction of the basement is an illogical leap in reasoing considering the logical sequence of events witnesses experienced, the historical record of terrorism against, and the lack of empirical evidence supporting the fireball theory, not only that, empirical evidence supporting the lack of a fireball with such destructive capabilities.
Go reread post 111.

Now may I ask:
Question for all:

8. What would it take to convince you that an explosive device was used in the sublevels of the basement of WTC: North Tower?

Witness testimony describing observing an explosive device prior to it detonating
Remnants of an explosive device
Data that is inconsistent, that is to say would falsify, the FAE theory

[Swing Dangler]

Gravy can you ask again, I've lost the question in the discussion. Sorry.
Thanks!
The structural damage I was referring to was the basement levels, offices, parking garage, walls, ceiling, PATH Plaza, etc. Was that the post you were referring to?

[Swing Dangler]

* Witness testimony describing observing an explosive device prior to it detonating
* Remnants of an explosive device
* Data that is inconsistent, that is to say would falsify, the FAE theory

1. Would terrorists have placed a device in a location to be witnessed by anyone? I doubt it. Would a witness know what an explosive device looks like if not trained in that field? I doubt it. Unless of course we are talking Hollywood types of devices with the red and blue wires and the clock ticking down. If a car or truck as a possible method of delivery be able to be described with explosives in it by a passive observer?
2. Would there be any evidence left after a global collapse of two towers?
3. What data IYO would falsify the fireball? Other than the Griffith's accounts
of survival?
4. What empirical evidence did NIST provide to support their contention that a fireball caused the damage? I found none. I've only found assumptions made by the authors whose evidence they used to arrive at their conclusion was pictures, video, and eyewitness statements.
I applaud your willingness to accept that a device could be used, however, at least two of your requirements are nearly impossible if not impossible to provide.

Gumbot-The premise at this point is not on timing of detonation in relation to the impacts or its effect on the collapse sequence.

[Swing Dangler]

No, the most you can say is that they suffered injury consistent with an explosion. Go reread post 111.

This in incorrect. The explosive device at this point is either jet fuel in whatever form, or some other type of device.

Post 111 does not consider the entire sequence of events that were experienced by victims. Post 111 leaves out the resulting damage to the environment, injuries other than burns, and the first thoughts of those victims.

Call To All, especially Gravy:
Gentlemen in Ed Mcabe's account, he mentions 9 unprepared firefighters that he has encountered. In his accounts he meets these firefighters in Sub-4 after what the first impact and the lights go out. However, and this is what bothers me, all 9 firemen leave Ed behind in the darkness, and as far as we know, do not return. Not a single firefighter has a flashlight. Ed is upset that not even 1 firefighter is remains behind and he assumes the firefighters return to get flashlights but doesn't state they did for sure. It is an assumption on his part.. After reading the accounts of firefighters, this is contradictory to what woudl be expected of firefighters.
The request: has anyone been able to confim these 9 firefighters as being in the basement? Or is there another source that can place 9 firefighters in this basement shortly after the first impact?

explanation for why this explosion was not captured on the multitude of video cameras recording in the area.

Forensic evidence of explosives.

To my knoweldge, all video evidence from the surrounding area was destroyed by the three collapses.
Can you elaborate on forensic evidence as this is a very broad statement?
Thanks.

[gumboot]

There's no evidence whatsoever of any explosive devices being detonated at the WTC on9/11. None. There is ample evidence that a fuel-laden jetliner was deliberately flown into both WTC1 and WTC2.

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

To my knoweldge, all video evidence from the surrounding area was destroyed by the three collapses.


Garbage. There are countless videos of the collapses. None captured explosives (videos that have been poorly faked by Conspiracy Theorists don't count).



Can you elaborate on forensic evidence as this is a very broad statement?
Thanks.


Explosives leave forensic evidence. Residue, remains of devices, distinct damage marks, etc. Forensic teams sifted through 1.4 million tonnes of debris by hand, looking for anything like this. They found none.

-Gumboot

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

No, the most you can say is that they suffered injury consistent with an explosion. Go reread post 111.

This in incorrect. The explosive device at this point is either jet fuel in whatever form, or some other type of device.
A FAE resulting from the aerosolizing of the jet fuel is not an "explosive device", an explosive device clearly implies a device designed to explode.

Post 111 does not consider the entire sequence of events that were experienced by victims. Post 111 leaves out the resulting damage to the environment, injuries other than burns, and the first thoughts of those victims.
Let me spell this out very slowly for you; you can not assume because there was an explosion that it had to come from an explosive device, bomb, ied, etc.


Can you elaborate on forensic evidence as this is a very broad statement?
Thanks.
Chemical residue of explosive, detcord, inition device, etc

[Alt+F4]

1. Would terrorists have placed a device in a location to be witnessed by anyone? I doubt it. Would a witness know what an explosive device looks like if not trained in that field? I doubt it. Unless of course we are talking Hollywood types of devices with the red and blue wires and the clock ticking down. If a car or truck as a possible method of delivery be able to be described with explosives in it by a passive observer?

Since the 1993 bombing every vehicle that entered the WTC Truck Dock was inspected and sniffed by a PAPD exposives detection dog.

[gumboot]

It's worth point out that after the 1993 WTC Bombing, security at the WTC was significantly increased, especially for trucks etc. entering the sub-levels. I find it highly unlikely that anyone could have got an explosive into those parking garages a second time.

One would also have to wonder why anyone attempting to destroy the WTC with explosives would use an FAE. Not only are they relatively complicated weapons, but they're pretty useless for building demolition, and you'd need a very big bomb to do any serious damage.

The injuries suffered by victims of the attack are consistent with a FAE. They are not even remotely consistent with any other sort of explosive device.

And even then, their wounds are not consistent with a FAE detonated very close to them. If a FAE was detonated in the basement, they would all have burned to death or asphyxiated.

-Gumboot

[Gravy]

Gravy can you ask again, I've lost the question in the discussion. Sorry.
Thanks!Evasion noted. How many times do I have to ask the same questions? Please stop wasting my time.

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2632158&postcount=119

I'd also like you to comment on the white kerosene smoke, which you said didn't exist. Do you now agree that it is consistent with jet fuel vapors?

The structural damage I was referring to was the basement levels, offices, parking garage, walls, ceiling, PATH Plaza, etc. Was that the post you were referring to?The structure is that which makes the building remain standing: what structural engineers design, and what would need to be severely damaged in order to weaken the building. I have seen no accounts that indicate structural damage after the north tower elevator shaft blast.

So you can't say you missed it again, here it is again. http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2632158&postcount=119

[MRC_Hans]

Well a cave in a B-4 and the PATH plaza support Willie's statements. Not only that, a destroyed machine shop as well as a parking garage confirm it as well. Lets not forget destroyed and cracked walls as well.
Now is it not strange that a fireball traveling that far down a single shaft doesn't destroy floors,walls and shafts all the way down?

Common sense and logic will tell you that a fireball did not create the damage in the sublevels as far down as B-4. Arthuro Griffith the operator of the only elevator whose shaft reached the impact floors to the lowest part of the basement where massive damage was witnesses suffered no injuries from a fireball while in his elevator. If the fireball myth were true, he would be dead.A fuel-air explosion (FAE)would send an accelerating shockwave down the shafts. The reason FAEs seem less violent that high explosives (HE), despite their much higher energy content, is that their shockwave is subsonic (as opposed to the supersonic shockwave of HE). However, when confined in a shaft, the FAE will accelerate the shockwave as the hot gasses expand behind it, and it will very likely make more damage near the end of the shaft, where the speeding column of air is stopped by the end and forced to expand to the sides. As the gas expands, it cools off so while more violent at the end of the shaft, it will be less hot.

So, according to logic and common sense, not the mention physics, an FAE fits the testimony very well, indeed.

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

Uhm, sorry, my post above was in reply to something on page two. I didn't realize how far the thread had moved, Anywayz, it still stands,

Hans

[Swing Dangler]

Since the 1993 bombing every vehicle that entered the WTC Truck Dock was inspected and sniffed by a PAPD exposives detection dog.

Source and empirical evidence, please?

Explosives leave forensic evidence. Residue, remains of devices, distinct damage marks, etc. Forensic teams sifted through 1.4 million tonnes of debris by hand, looking for anything like this. They found none.
Source? And sifting equates to chemical testing now?

Garbage. There are countless videos of the collapses.
How many videos captured the event in the basement during or after impact? How many videos captured the first impact?

Not a diversion, Gravy, why is it a strawman? Is that the question your accusing me of avoiding? Or you could just come out again and state the question again.

White smoke in the tower's basement is now kerosene vapor according to you, or at least your expert, Roger Sanders, Waste Oil Heater article. Well if you want to use Roger Sanders as an expert on JetA fuel vapor, that is your choice. Why you would choose to do so is beyond me. An explanation for the white smoke, I presume. Who is Roger Sanders anyway and how does a waste oil heater prove anything in relation to the topic?

So I decided to take a look at the worst case scenario: A Review of the Flammability Hazard of JetA Fuel Vapor In Civil Transport Aircraft Fuel Tanks. (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:OFclwGGrHiYJ:www.tc.faa.gov/its/worldpac/techrpt/ar98-26.pdf+what+is+the+color+of+jet+fuel+vapor%3F&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=us&client=firefox-a) And to my suprise, there is not a single mention of JetA fuel vapor in a white smoke form. Well to give you the benefit of the doubt I decided to check out Shepherd, J. E., Explosion of Aviation Kerosene (Jet A) Vapors, CIT Presentation at
NTSB Meeting, October 7, 1997, NTSB Docket No. SA-516, Exhibit No. 20F. (http://www.galcit.caltech.edu/EDL/projects/JetA/reports/EX_20F.PDF)
And to my suprise again, not a single mention of jetA fuel vapors being white.
So to answer your question after doing some homework, I'm confident that the white smoke observed in the basement or anywhere for that matter was not JetA fuel vapor as you contend.
Have you changed your mind regarding what the "white smoke" might be?

I have seen no accounts that indicate structural damage after the north tower elevator shaft blast.

Of course that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Were there structural engineers in the sublevels during the first impact?

So, according to logic and common sense, not the mention physics, an FAE fits the testimony very well, indeed.
I have seen no emperical evidence to support the fireball theory. I have only seem assumptions made by NIST. Assumptions on the fuel that ignited and assumptions on the fuel remaining. NIST to my knowledge has shown no calculations supporting the assumption that a fireball in the basement caused the damage witnessed there.

[Swing Dangler]

Let me spell this out very slowly for you; you can not assume because there was an explosion that it had to come from an explosive device, bomb, ied, etc.

Again, you leave out the logical order of events. Sound/Human injury/environmental damage/first thoughts of victims and FBI hypothesis.

In the same way that NIST assumed a fireball created the damage in the basement without empirical evidence, I can assume an explosive device caused the damage. The conclusion is reached through empirical method as you know.

[Swing Dangler]

A FAE resulting from the aerosolizing of the jet fuel is not an "explosive device", an explosive device clearly implies a device designed to explode.

Now your getting into semantics and straying off topic.

Back to English 101 I guess...
Dictionary.com:

Device-a thing made for a particular purpose
Thing-a material object without life.
Fuel-Something consumed to produce energy
Explosion-the burning of the mixture of fuel and air.

I will repeat the question for the 5 posters of have ignored it:
So therefore, jet fuel does serve as an explosive device. I await your retraction.

What would it take to convince you an explosive device other than jet fuel was used in the basement of WTC: North Tower?

[CHF]

What would it take to convince you that an explosive device was used in the sublevels of the basement of WTC: North Tower?

Let's start with a logical reason for a seb-level explosive being used in a top-down collapse.

And don't say "to cut the core so that the top would collapse a friggin' hour later."

[Swing Dangler]

Still no response to my post, Swing?

As I responded to yours, will you be pointing the errors out in my work that you state are there?

[Quad4_72]

As I responded to yours, will you be pointing the errors out in my work that you state are there?

Is there any chance that you could point out ONE error in Gravy's paper? Just out of curiosity.

[Alt+F4]

Source and empirical evidence, please?

From PAPD Officer David Lim's testimony to the 9/11 Commission:

I am a Police Officer in the employ of the Port Authority of NY & NJ. I have been such for the greater part of the last 23 years. On Sept. 11th, 2001, our Police Department suffered the greatest single day loss in Law Enforcement history @ the World Trade Center. 37 Officers from every rank (Superintendent to Police Officer) as well as my partner, explosive detector K-9 Sirius were killed in the attack. Many would ask what the PAPD was doing in the World Trade Center. A little known fact was that we were always there. Since the Port Authority owned the buildings, we (the Police) were responsible for the public safety therein. We were there in 93' as well as on 9/11. We were in fact the first responders to this tragedy & in conjunction with the NYPD, FDNY, EMS & other Emergency Service Units actively participated in the greatest rescue effort this city had ever seen.

On that fateful day, my job was checking vehicles that were entering the WTC Truck Dock for possible explosives.

Bolding mine.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing1/witness_lim.htm
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2002/america.remembers/stories/heroes/lim.html
http://www.panynj.gov/AboutthePortAuthority/PortAuthorityPolice/K-9Unit/
http://www.portauthoritypolicememorial.org/Sirius%20press_clipping.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Authority_Police_Department#K-9_Unit

[LashL]

From PAPD Officer David Lim's testimony to the 9/11 Commission:



Bolding mine.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing1/witness_lim.htm
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2002/america.remembers/stories/heroes/lim.html
http://www.panynj.gov/AboutthePortAuthority/PortAuthorityPolice/K-9Unit/
http://www.portauthoritypolicememorial.org/Sirius%20press_clipping.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Authority_Police_Department#K-9_Unit

The Port Authority spent some $60 million in security upgrades at the WTC after the 1993 bombing. More sources here:

http://www.securitymanagement.com/library/000852.html

http://www.100share.com/World-Trade-Center.htm

[qarnos]

Oh, I will add this point while I'm here. You said,

c) Sees white smoke, and reports the smell of kerosene.
d) The smell he thought coming from perhaps a burning car in the parking garage above them.
e) Kerosene smell, not a kerosene fire. Burning Kerosene does not produce white smoke.

I sure wish you had read the other accounts of white smoke, or otherwise done your homework. Kerosene vapors are white.

Here's a nice example of white smoke from burning kerosene:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/26434659f59a5335c.jpg

[gumboot]

Source and empirical evidence, please?


Se previous posts.



Source? And sifting equates to chemical testing now?


Curiously, do you actually know anything about 9/11? You seem grossly ignorant.

FBI Article on Evidence Teams at Fresh Kills (http://www.fbi.gov/page2/nov03/nyhs112703.htm)

Statement for the Record of Michael E. Rolince, Acting Assistant Director in Charge, Federal Bureau of Investigation (http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2003_hr/062503rolince.html)

Sorry it was 1.8 million tonnes of debris.




How many videos captured the event in the basement during or after impact? How many videos captured the first impact?


Cameras did not have to be in the basement. Any explosion in the basement would have been heard far and wide, and captured by dozens and dozens of cameras. There was a camera recording in the lobby of WTC1 from moments after the first impact until after the collapse of WTC2. Not a single explosion captured.




White smoke in the tower's basement is now kerosene vapor according to you, or at least your expert, Roger Sanders, Waste Oil Heater article. Well if you want to use Roger Sanders as an expert on JetA fuel vapor, that is your choice. Why you would choose to do so is beyond me. An explanation for the white smoke, I presume. Who is Roger Sanders anyway and how does a waste oil heater prove anything in relation to the topic?


You do realise that both oil from heaters and Jet-A fuel are kerosene, right?




And to my suprise, there is not a single mention of JetA fuel vapor in a white smoke form. Well to give you the benefit of the doubt I decided to check out Shepherd, J. E., Explosion of Aviation Kerosene (Jet A) Vapors, CIT Presentation at
NTSB Meeting, October 7, 1997, NTSB Docket No. SA-516, Exhibit No. 20F. (http://www.galcit.caltech.edu/EDL/projects/JetA/reports/EX_20F.PDF)
And to my suprise again, not a single mention of jetA fuel vapors being white.


Is there any reason why they should mention the colour of Jet A vapour?




I have seen no emperical evidence to support the fireball theory. I have only seem assumptions made by NIST. Assumptions on the fuel that ignited and assumptions on the fuel remaining. NIST to my knowledge has shown no calculations supporting the assumption that a fireball in the basement caused the damage witnessed there.


Empirical evidence for the WTC events is not possible, unless one were to entirely rebuilt the entire site, rig it with thousands of cameras and sensors, and ram airliners into it.

-Gumboot

[Swing Dangler]

Is there any chance that you could point out ONE error in Gravy's paper? Just out of curiosity.
Arturo Grffith, elevator operator, in freight car 50A with carpenter Marlene Cruz:
Arturo Griffith, a Panamanian, was in a lift at the time of the impact. The whole car shook and juddered as he heard an ominous noise from above. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20010918/ai_n14406873
The actual quote from source mentions no presence of Marlene Cruz in the elevator.


ALTF4, How many times do you have to be told, eyewitness testimony is not empirical evidence.
Again, do you have any empirical evidence that every vehicle entering the garage and basement levels since 1993 was sniffed by bomb sniffing dogs? Alt, you realize that this eyewitness helps my case, correct? The PA was there in 1993 as he states and still a truck bomb was detonated in the basement. Also, the individual in the report was in the South Tower area, not the North Tower.
Not only that, you may want to examine the article below of how Middle Eastern man who attempted to get a fake driver's license had access to the 6 sub levels of the towers.

Security Problem at WTC Towers?
A photo ID pass for Sept. 5 found on one of the men charged with fraudulently obtaining a Tennessee driver's license from a Memphis woman gave him access to the six underground levels of the One World Center building.But which tenant hired Sakher 'Rocky' Hammad, 24, to work on its sprinklers is lost, said Port Authority of New York and New Jersey spokesman Alan Hicks on Friday. Hammad told federal authorities that he was working on the sprinklers six days before the twin towers were brought down by terrorists, court testimony revealed this week. But Hicks said the Port Authority, which owned the building, did its own sprinkler work, and that any other work involving sprinklers would have been arranged by an individual tenant.
"We don't know (which one) because all our records were destroyed in the World Trade Center, as were some of the people who know that," Hicks said.
Small details about the five Middle Eastern men arrested Feb. 5 with Tennessee driver's license examiner Katherine Smith are slowly surfacing. Smith died Sunday in a fiery car crash, a day before she was to appear in court. It appears that Khaled Odtllah of Cordova shared the same 2840 Morning Lake Drive address at different times over the past year with Rocky Hammad, according to an online people finder database. More at the
source: Here (http://www.gomemphis.com/mca/local_news/article/0,1426,MCA_437_989113,00.html)
You may want to read more into the details as the Port Authority explains that individual tentents may outsource work. This is yet another way terrorists could have gained access to the interior of the towers bypassing security. Granted it isn't a truck or car entering a garage, however, it is interesting to read how a Middle Eastern man had access to the sublevels of WTC without the Port Authority's knowledge.

Here's a nice example of white smoke from burning kerosene: Smoke from burning kerosene is not the same thing as kerosene vapor. You may want to read how kerosene vapor is formed.
And you are aware that that highly refined kerosene is being mixed with liquid oxygen and ignited, aren't you? So in support of Gravy's position, you stating that there was vast amounts of liquid oxygen present in the basement of WTC: North Tower? No wait, in order for Gravy's position to be correct, the fuel had to reach the basement that is already hot enough to produce the vapor in white smoke form and then ....not ignite. I'm sorry but the picture you presented only helps to refute the premise that kerosene vapor is the white smoke in the basement or anywhere else in the towers. I grew up in a house that used a kerosene heater. And strangely enough, not a single time that we lit the heater was white smoke produced. If we reduced the flame in the heater, vast amounts of BLACK smoke was produced, but never white smoke.

Is there any reason why they should mention the colour of Jet A vapour?
Perhaps you should ask them. If it were white, that would be a sure fire way to alert mechanics to not ignite anything near the white smoke.

Gumbot-FBI Article on Evidence Teams at Fresh Kills
FBI Article on Evidence Teams at Fresh Kills
Statement for the Record of Michael E. Rolince, Acting Assistant Director in Charge, Federal Bureau of Investigation
You asked if I were ignorant of 9/11 and of course I'm not. However, I will reflect the same question upon you. In both of those sources, there is not a single mention of the FBI testing for explosive residue. Was that an error on your part or dishonesty?

[B]My question still stands which none have answered:
What would it take to convince you an explosive device was used in the basement?

[3bodyproblem]

[I]
My question still stands which none have answered:
What would it take to convince you an explosive device was used in the basement?

A logical explanation for its purpose and timing. (at least)

[Swing Dangler]

A logical explanation for its purpose and timing. (at least)

If you can tell me what would convince you that an explosive device was used in the sublevels, then I may attempt to answer you question.

[Swing Dangler]

Let's start with a logical reason for a seb-level explosive being used in a top-down collapse. And don't say "to cut the core so that the top would collapse a friggin' hour later."

If you could repost those 3 things from SLC that would convince you there was an explosive device in the basement, then we can move on to speculation.;)

[3bodyproblem]

If you can tell me what would convince you that an explosive device was used in the sublevels, then I may attempt to answer you question.

I'm a little newer to the forum so I jump hoops more readily than the rest. I just want a working theory as to why this device was planted and set off. I'm giving you that one went off.This is a big stretch on my part, but i assume that you already believe one was detonated. I didn't see CHF's post, but I like the way he thinks.

[bje]

If you can tell me what would convince you that an explosive device was used in the sublevels, then I may attempt to answer you question.


We already did.

As always, the answer was inconvenient, therefore denied.

Any further questions?

[Swing Dangler]

I'm a little newer to the forum so I jump hoops more readily than the rest. I just want a working theory as to why this device was planted and set off. I'm giving you that one went off.This is a big stretch on my part, but i assume that you already believe one was detonated. I didn't see CHF's post, but I like the way he thinks.

Although I appreciate your statement, please don't give me anything. I'm asking you what it would take to convince you that an explosive device was used in the sublevels of the North Tower: Sublevels absent empirical evidence that would have been destroyed in the collapse?

[Swing Dangler]

We already did.

As always, the answer was inconvenient, therefore denied.

Any further questions?

BJE, I don't recall you offering any answer to the question.

[CHF]

Swing,

are you gonna explain the point of this basement bomb?

Or is it one of those questions (like "who are the terrorists?") that you'd rather not address?

[CHF]

What were my 3 requirements again?

IIRC:

- Structural damage consistent with a bomb
- Engineers who back the idea
- Injuries consistent with a bomb blast

And I really would like a reason for this basement bomb being there, if its not too much to ask.

[kookbreaker]

SD's refusal to talk about who planted his alleged explosives is a classic case of why Occam's razor is a needed tool for logical thought. The concept that entities should not be expanded beyond necessity is being patently violated here. The existance of explosives in the basements adds, at a bare minimum, the entities of who put them there, and how did they get them there. These are entities must be addressed, yet Swing insists that Occam be bypassed for his exercise of trying to prove one thing is another. That is intellectual cowardice, not science.

[qarnos]

Speaking for myself, there is no single piece of evidence which would convince me of anything from a scientific point of view. There are, however, things which would make me seriously entertain the idea of bombs in the basement, such as:

* The detection of explosive residue - which could have only come from explosives.
* Damage to the steel remains consistent with a bomb blast.
* A general scientific consensus that there were bombs in the basement.
* Witness reports for which the simplest explanation is bombs in the basement.
* One of the people who planted the bombs to come forward and say, "Hey, guess what I did?!"

That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure I could add more if I tried.

[LashL]

<snip>
Arturo Grffith, elevator operator, in freight car 50A with carpenter Marlene Cruz:
Arturo Griffith, a Panamanian, was in a lift at the time of the impact. The whole car shook and juddered as he heard an ominous noise from above. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20010918/ai_n14406873
The actual quote from source mentions no presence of Marlene Cruz in the elevator.

But she was, indeed, in the elevator with Arturo Griffith. There are several sources that confirm this.


<snip>Again, do you have any empirical evidence that every vehicle entering the garage and basement levels since 1993 was sniffed by bomb sniffing dogs?

That is not what Alt+F4 said, SwingDangler. You should read more carefully, and for comprehension.

And you might wish to read these as well, while you're at it.

http://www.securitymanagement.com/library/000852.html

http://www.100share.com/World-Trade-Center.htm

[Swing Dangler]

Swing, are you gonna explain the point of this basement bomb? Or is it one of those questions (like "who are the terrorists?") that you'd rather not address?
Well CHF, we are back at the same point we were at SLC when you were wanting me to have my paper torn apart by the regulars. So far I've got a kerosene heated stove from some no-name to prove white smoke was kerosene vapor in the basement and elsewhere which is bunk.
I've got a paper referenced to that has many errors and outright distortions for whatever reason.

I've got a bunch of folks that demand empirical evidence for an explosive device but will accept a fireabll excuse without empirical evidence and with plenty of assumptions, and god-like miracles for the excuse to be valid.

I've got many witnesses who were TOLD what they experienced.

I've got many witnesses who thought it was a bomb or were reminded of the 1993 attacks.

I've got a method of delivery conversation used to distract from the facts and testimony.

So far, CHF, I'm not too impressed. I was hoping to come away from here convinced it wasn't an explosive device, but instead I'm even more convinced!

Stay tuned for the speculation part that you are asking for. Some interesting details have just been discovered that make a method of delivery even more plausible.

[kookbreaker]

So far I've got a kerosene heated stove from some no-name to prove white smoke was kerosene vapor in the basement and elsewhere which is bunk.


What the hell is your problem with this? Are you suggesting that it is impossible to have both unburned kerosene (producing the smell) as well as burned kerosene (producing the white smoke).

An amazing world you must live in where all combustion reactions are 100% efficient with all materials in the area.

[Swing Dangler]

But she was, indeed, in the elevator with Arturo Griffith. There are several sources that confirm this.

The source used in the paper does not confirm that. And I'm sure you will provide the source that will confirm this so I can retract my statement.


The source that you use in regards to the security operations is not empirical evidence. It is a survey. I'm asking for empirical evidence.

[QUOTE]Here you go Kook:
One suspect of who could have been involved in the basement:
Sakher 'Rocky' Hammad. He had access to all 6 sublevels. He stated he was working on sprinklers, yet Port Authority states they do all of the sprinkler work, but he could have been hired from a tenet. Hammad was busted in a Federal sting for trying to obtain a fake driver's license in Tennessee.
I will post the whole story involving this man if requested.

[Swing Dangler]

What the hell is your problem with this? Are you suggesting that it is impossible to have both unburned kerosene (producing the smell) as well as burned kerosene (producing the white smoke).
An amazing world you must live in where all combustion reactions are 100% efficient with all materials in the area.

One, there is no need to get upset.
Two, lets rid state that nothing is impossible and get that detraction out of the way. You may want to read how kerosene vapor is formed.
Also, you may want to catch the entire thread's comments.

[beachnut]

Although I appreciate your statement, please don't give me anything. I'm asking you what it would take to convince you that an explosive device was used in the sublevels of the North Tower: Sublevels absent empirical evidence that would have been destroyed in the collapse?
Wrong again

[kookbreaker]

One, there is no need to get upset.
Two, lets rid state that nothing is impossible and get that detraction out of the way.

What post were you replying to?

You may want to read how kerosene vapor is formed.

This is something special in your world? Leave kerosene out and you will get kerosene vapors. Spill it and you get vapors. Geez.


Also, you may want to catch the entire thread's comments.

I have. You were claiming earlier that Kerosene smoke is not white.

[gumboot]

My question still stands which none have answered:
What would it take to convince you an explosive device was used in the basement?


Your question has been answered repeatedly.

But for your benefit, I'll give you the short answer.

Evidence.

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

One, there is no need to get upset.
Two, lets rid state that nothing is impossible and get that detraction out of the way. You may want to read how kerosene vapor is formed.
Also, you may want to catch the entire thread's comments.


I'm sorry, did you just say nothing was impossible?

-Gumboot

[Swing Dangler]

What post were you replying to?
Yours.

This is something special in your world? Leave kerosene out and you will get kerosene vapors. Spill it and you get vapors. Geez.
What colors are the vapor? Something special in my world? Now, now lets not attack the person as the moderators have asked, but instead attack the arguement. See you have missed part of the discussion. You need to read Gravy's source on white smoke in relation to kerosene.

Gumbot-Empirical evidence? I can't provide any of that as if there were it was destroyed in the collapse. However, if empirical evidence is your response, why then do you accept a fireball without empirical evidence?

[qarnos]

-Empirical evidence? I can't provide any of that as if there were it was destroyed in the collapse. However, if empirical evidence is your response, why then do you accept a fireball without empirical evidence?

A fireball is the simplest explanation for all the observed facts, requiring the fewest assumptions.

[LashL]

The source used in the paper does not confirm that. And I'm sure you will provide the source that will confirm this so I can retract my statement.

Yes, just as soon as you read for comprehension what Alt+F4 said and understand how the sources provided do, in fact, confirm what Alt+F4 said.

The source that you use in regards to the security operations is not empirical evidence. It is a survey. I'm asking for empirical evidence.


No, the sources (plural) that I provided are not "a survey" but are further evidence of the measures that were undertaken after the 1993 bombing at the WTC. Once you have completed step 1 above (reading for comprehension and understanding what you have mischaracterized about Alt+F4's prior post), then you should complete step 2 and read the sources Alt+F4 posted and the additional ones that I posted.

Only then will you be ready to discuss further. You have to understand the basics first, and so far, it appears that you are missing the basics.

[gumboot]

-Empirical evidence? I can't provide any of that as if there were it was destroyed in the collapse. However, if empirical evidence is your response, why then do you accept a fireball without empirical evidence?



Did you see me use the word "empirical"?

There is not, and cannot be empirical evidence for the WTC collapses. To produce it, you would have to rebuild the entire towers, load them with sensors and cameras, and ram fuel-laden airliners into them. Something I have already pointed out to you.

The reality is you have no evidence whatsoever of a bomb detonating in the basement of the WTC.

-Gumboot

[3bodyproblem]

Although I appreciate your statement, please don't give me anything. I'm asking you what it would take to convince you that an explosive device was used in the sublevels of the North Tower: Sublevels absent empirical evidence that would have been destroyed in the collapse?

A piece of cheesecake. Now that we have that taken care of, lets talk about WHY. I'll sit here quietly and eat my cake while you tell me your theory. Although a theory requires proof, so let's call it your "suppositions"

[kookbreaker]

Yours.

Something special in my world? Now, now lets not attack the person as the moderators have asked, but instead attack the arguement. See you have missed part of the discussion. You need to read Gravy's source on white smoke in relation to kerosene.


There's this bit of nonsense from you:


We both know Mike Pecoraro thought it was from a car in the garage above him. Also notice the sequence of events. After smelling the kerosene, he reports NO EXPLOSION but does witness destruction of the machine shop.

So far, nothing big.


In Ed's account notice the squence: he sees the white smoke after the explosion in the stairwell. But reports no explosion from the white smoke after the explosion. Yet you contend it is kerosene vapor which is on the verge of exploding. Your own source on "white smoke" states that if you see white smoke, don't light the kerosene heater because it is kerosene vapor and it will explode. Yet in the two above accounts, they see white smoke after an explosion.

You realise that you are automatically assuming that kerosene vapor will result in an instant explosion, right? Well, let's say you hav an ingition source, but is your oxygen percentage enough to cause a burn?

You premise seems to be that the existance of white smoke, if it is not burnt Kerosene, must automatically explode. That's a false assumption.

[Gravy]

Originally Posted by Swing Dangler http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2630852#post2630852)
1. Nobody witnessed a fireball from the collapse zone decending all the way from the impact zone to B-4 into the Path Platform.

... "Keep in mind as you continue to read the accounts, that a single fireball from the impact zone almost 80 floors above traveled down a single elevator shaft, failed to kill or even burn the elevator operator, Arturo Griffith, but causes all of this damage in the various levels of the basement."
I have repeatedly asked you to justify these statements, and have repeatedly called them straw man arguments. I'm asking you to think about what you write.

Final time: do you understand why these are straw man arguments?

[hard lines]

Kilo for kilo, Avgas contains over ten times the stored chemical energy of TNT. And there were over 25,000 kg of fuel in each crash. That's why.

There was no avgas in the WTC

[hard lines]

Also keep in mind that the service elevator fell from the 40th floor and probably hit bottom a few seconds before the arrival of the jet fuel fireball. It's possible he heard or felt the elevator hit bottom and then heard the fuel explosion coming down from above.

Just speculation.

The service elevator (50a) didn't hit the bottom

[hard lines]

Here's a report from someone who I believe also helped Felipe David. Although if he did then Rodriguez seems to have airbrushed him from history:

Quote:
Kenneth Johannemann
36, janitor at 1 World Trade Center
My shift is 8 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. I'm always on time, but today I got lucky because I went on the 30th floor to get a cup of coffee. If I hadn't gotten that cup of coffee, I would have gotten blown up on the elevator. I was waiting by the elevator to go do the restrooms, and then there was a big bang, and the whole building shook. The elevator door flew open, and a guy stumbled out, and he was badly burned up. It seemed like he was smoldering, almost.
He was a delivery guy. The skin from his wrist was hanging down past his fingertips. He was screaming all sorts of things like, "Bombing! Please get me out of here! I'm going to die!" I took him down the hallway right around the corner to my supervisor's office. Me and another janitor grabbed the man and took him outside, one on each arm. There was an EMS truck already outside, and those guys just grabbed him and pushed us aside. I wish I knew what happened to him, but I have no idea. He was burned up bad but he was still alive. I really hope he survived.

This quote is interesting, it describes what appears to be David Felipe stepping out of an elevator car. Although David Felipe himself says he was only in front of the car, if he were in the car, which lift car would it be? Car 50 was occupied by Griffith, and according to NIST 6 & 7 were out of order. There were no other cars which extended to the impact zone, and therefore could not have been a route for the fireball.

[hard lines]

A 50-ton press is not large by any means. It would weigh about as much as the 300 lb. fire door, if not a little more.

This would be a good example; www2.northerntool.com/product-1/475.htm

Actually that is a poor example. The image you linked to is a light weight domestic type. I have personally installed a industrial 10 ton press much bigger than that, and whilst a 50 ton press doesn't weigh 50 tons, they aren't some light weight piece of equipment.

[hard lines]

None of Ms. Cruz, Mr. Lever, Mr. Delbianco, or Mr. Griffith (not "Griffin") say that there were bombs or explosives emanating from the sub-basement levels, nor do any of them say that there were explosions prior to the airplane hitting the tower.

Ms. Cruz was in the elevator with Mr. Griffith. Both she and Mr. Griffith describe fire coming down the elevator shaft after the elevator fell several floors. Neither describes any explosions occurring prior to the airplane striking the tower, nor do they describe any explosions coming from below.



A. GRIFFITH: Well, I was on my way from B-2 to 49th floor. And as I took off, it was amount it was a matter of seconds -- five, six, seven seconds, I don't know. And there was a loud explosion and the elevator dropped. And when the elevator dropped there was a lot of debris and cables falling on top of the elevator. And I just -- I just put my hand over my said and I said, oh God I'm going to die. But I didn't know what was happening.

When the elevator finally stopped, they had an explosion that bring the doors inside the elevator, and I think I'm sure that that was what broke my leg. And then they had another explosion and the panel that threw me, you know, against the wall, and I guess I was unconscious for a couple of minutes because somebody else was in the elevator with me, and they say that they was trying to get my attention and they didn't get no response from me.
transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0110/06/lklw.00.html

[hard lines]

Well a cave in a B-4 and the PATH plaza support Willie's statements. Not only that, a destroyed machine shop as well as a parking garage confirm it as well. Lets not forget destroyed and cracked walls as well.
Now is it not strange that a fireball traveling that far down a single shaft doesn't destroy floors,walls and shafts all the way down?

Common sense and logic will tell you that a fireball did not create the damage in the sublevels as far down as B-4. Arthuro Griffith the operator of the only elevator whose shaft reached the impact floors to the lowest part of the basement where massive damage was witnesses suffered no injuries from a fireball while in his elevator. If the fireball myth were true, he would be dead.

Actually, although cars 6 & 7 only serviced to B1, their shafts extended to B4

[Gravy]

There was no avgas in the WTCJet-A fuel, which is essentially kerosene. You aren't disputing that there was a lot of it in the towers after the plane impacts, are you?

Also, if you're just trolling, you should stop. It isn't funny or mature.

[gumboot]

Technically he's right, although I am sure it's very obvious R.Mackey meant Jet-A fuel.

-Gumboot

[Gravy]

Actually that is a poor example. The image you linked to is a light weight domestic type. I have personally installed a industrial 10 ton press much bigger than that, and whilst a 50 ton press doesn't weigh 50 tons, they aren't some light weight piece of equipment.You do understand that the descripton of the press being destroyed could simply mean it was knocked over or buried by debris, right? Are you arguing for explosives planted in the towers? If so, will you be presenting any evidence?

[bje]

BJE, I don't recall you offering any answer to the question.


I rest my case.

[hard lines]

There was a partial collapse in the concourse after the south tower was hit, which trapped Will Jimeno, John McLoughlin & Co. A fireball accompanied the collapse. For the blast on the B4 level, read my Rodriguez paper, particularly Ed McCabe's account, who describes it happening about 30 seconds after he noticed the movement of the building. And note the damage there across the hall from the #50 elevator.


Whilst McCabe describes an explosion about 30 seconds after he notcied the building moving, he does not see a fireball.

On the other hand we have an account from Griffith who did see a fireball, not 30 seconds after impact....
But after his elevator car had fallen and come to a halt, after he had experienced 2 explosions, after (he believes) he was unconscious for a couple of minutes, after he was rescued, after he told his rescuers their was another person in the car, after his rescuers had rescued Marlene Cruz, and the finally seconds after Cruz is rescued he witnesses a fireball.

Griffith was located within seconds of this fireball and did not describe being blown away by it. McCabe was in a refrigeration plant, nowhere near this freight elevator and witnesses a door being blown off.

[hard lines]

Jet-A fuel, which is essentially kerosene. You aren't disputing that there was a lot of it in the towers after the plane impacts, are you?

Also, if you're just trolling, you should stop. It isn't funny or mature.

Which is essentially less volatile than avgas.

Just stating the facts.

[Gravy]

This quote is interesting, it describes what appears to be David Felipe stepping out of an elevator car. Although David Felipe himself says he was only in front of the car, if he were in the car, which lift car would it be? Car 50 was occupied by Griffith, and according to NIST 6 & 7 were out of order. There were no other cars which extended to the impact zone, and therefore could not have been a route for the fireball.Or it could have been someone else. Or perhaps Johannemann thought David had come from the elevator, but he saw him stumbling near it after being burned. (In another quote he describes dragging the man out of the elevator, so I don't think that's the case.)

You make the same mistake as Swing Dangler when you speak about cars 6&7 and the fireball traveling down the elevator shaft. It's a straw man argument. Do you know why? Also, have you read my paper (http://911stories.googlepages.com/home) on this subject? It may clear up some misconceptions of yours.

[Gravy]

Which is essentially less volatile than avgas.

Just stating the facts.Do you dispute that there was jet fuel in the elevator shafts, and that people in the basements (and on many other levels) smelled kerosene and saw white smoke immediately after the blast? Can you present any fact that is inconsistent with the basement blasts being caused by the jet fuel?

[hard lines]

Or it sould have been someone else. Or perhaps Johannemann thought David had come from the elevator, but he saw him stumbling near it after being burned.

You make the same mistake as Swing Dangler when you speak about cars 6&7 and the fireball traveling down the elevator shaft. It's a straw man argument. Do you know why? Also, have you read my paper on this subject? It may clear up some misconceptions of yours.

Can you explain how the jet fuel poured down the elevator shafts besides 6, 7, and 50?

I have read some of your paper (including your elevator shaft continuity), you've done some nice work.

From the elevator shaft continuity section,

Several of the large express passenger elevators, which service the sky lobbies, plunged to the main lobby level. At least one of those falling elevators was accompanied by a huge fireball that burst into the lobby and concourse levels. Only four people are known to have survived in the south tower express elevators.

Do you have a source?
Or can you explain how elevator shafts that were below impact zone plunged to the main lobby?

[gumboot]

Can you explain how the jet fuel poured down the elevator shafts besides 6, 7, and 50?

I have read some of your paper (including your elevator shaft continuity), you've done some nice work.

From the elevator shaft continuity section,



Do you have a source?
Or can you explain how elevator shafts that were below impact zone plunged to the main lobby?



Er... because the aircraft hit the floors with all of the machinery that operated them...

-Gumboot

[hard lines]

Do you dispute that there was jet fuel in the elevator shafts, and that people in the basements (and on many other levels) smelled kerosene and saw white smoke immediately after the blast?
No

Can you present any fact that is inconsistent with the basement blasts being caused by the jet fuel?


see post #202

[hard lines]

South tower, yes.

[gumboot]

One thing that's important to point out, because a lot of newer poster here seem to be making this mistake...

The fuel did not explode into a fireball, and then that fireball went down the elevator shafts.

The evidence suggests (and it is NIST's conclusion) that the jet fuel spilled down elevator shafts and then ignited once in the shafts.

There is no reason to think it all ignited at exactly the same time.

Kerosene will not fireball unless it aerosols into a very narrow range of fuel-air ratio.

-Gumboot

[Gravy]

Hard Lines, I apologize for suggesting that you may be a troll. When I saw your avgas comment I thought you were about to argue that there was no aviation fuel in the towers. That's my hasty reaction after dealing with a troll in another thread.

I spent a lot of time on the Rodriguez paper. The answers to your questions are in it, but you have to read it to find them. I'm not going to waste my time responding to people who haven't read the whole thing. I'll be glad to answer any questions if there are issues you don't understand after you've read it.

[Gravy]

One thing that's important to point out, because a lot of newer poster here seem to be making this mistake...

The fuel did not explode into a fireball, and then that fireball went down the elevator shafts.

The evidence suggests (and it is NIST's conclusion) that the jet fuel spilled down elevator shafts and then ignited once in the shafts.

There is no reason to think it all ignited at exactly the same time.

Kerosene will not fireball unless it aerosols into a very narrow range of fuel-air ratio.

-GumbootDingDingDingDing!

Gumboot has correctly answered my "straw man" accusation, although I was hoping that SwingDangler or Hard Lines would think about it, read about it, and come up with the answers themselves. (Or read my paper.)

[Gravy]

McCabe was in a refrigeration plant, nowhere near this freight elevatorYour evidence that he was nowhere near the elevator shafts, please.

[hard lines]

One thing that's important to point out, because a lot of newer poster here seem to be making this mistake...

The fuel did not explode into a fireball, and then that fireball went down the elevator shafts.

The evidence suggests (and it is NIST's conclusion) that the jet fuel spilled down elevator shafts and then ignited once in the shafts.

There is no reason to think it all ignited at exactly the same time.

Kerosene will not fireball unless it aerosols into a very narrow range of fuel-air ratio.

-Gumboot

If Griffith's account is accurate, then the fireball he witnessed came much later than many other witness accounts of explosions. The fuel fireball came minutes after impact.

[hard lines]

Hard Lines, I apologize for suggesting that you may be a troll. When I saw your avgas comment I thought you were about to argue that there was no aviation fuel in the towers. That's my hasty reaction after dealing with a troll in another thread.

I spent a lot of time on the Rodriguez paper. The answers to your questions are in it, but you have to read it to find them. I'm not going to waste my time responding to people who haven't read the whole thing. I'll be glad to answer any questions if there are issues you don't understand after you've read it.

No offense taken.

I have read what i believe to be, the relevant areas of your paper.

[hard lines]

Your evidence that he was nowhere near the elevator shafts, please.

Please refer to the recently released blueprints and the location of the refrigeration plant room on B4

[Gravy]

Please refer to the recently released blueprints and the location of the refrigeration plant room on B4See, that's what you get for not reading my paper. McCabe said that just beyond the door that blew was Turner's field office, where several workers were burned. And where was Turner's field office? Across from the freight elevator.

[CHF]

So far, CHF, I'm not too impressed. I was hoping to come away from here convinced it wasn't an explosive device, but instead I'm even more convinced!

Right. Cuz you're a zealot.

Let's try again, shall we?

What was the point of this basement bomb?

Who planted it?

[hard lines]

I maintain that McCabe witnessed a door blown off whilst McCabe was nowhere near the freight elevator.

McCabe himself, if he was in the refrigeration room, was outside the footprint of WTC 1. Despite the fact that the door opened to an office which inturn opened to the area of the freight elevator. The door in question was located on the perimieter of the WTC 1 footprint.

In comparison with where Griffith was (within visual of the fireball), McGrabe was miles away.

[Gravy]

I maintain that McCabe witnessed a door blown off whilst McCabe was nowhere near the freight elevator.

McCabe himself, if he was in the refrigeration room, was outside the footprint of WTC 1. Despite the fact that the door opened to an office which inturn opened to the area of the freight elevator. The door in question was located on the perimieter of the WTC 1 footprint.

In comparison with where Griffith was (within visual of the fireball), McGrabe was miles away.You can maintain all you want. If you choose to believe that McCabe was in the portion of the refrigeration plant that was outside the building, as opposed to the part the was inside the building, then you've got some reading comprehension problems.

1) McCabe says he was in tower 1.
2) McCabe says he was about 30 feet from the door that blew.
3) McCabe says that just beyond that door was the field office.
4) McCabe says that the people in the field office were burned: "I can smell their burnt flesh."
5) McCabe says that smoke was being drawn up the elevator shaft: "the smoke was being sucked up the shaft now" I think you know that the elevators were in the center of the building, not outside it.
6) The field office was across from the freight elevator.

Sorry, but we have more than enough conspiracists here who "maintain" whatever strikes their fancy, the evidence be damned. Please take that sad act elsewhere. As I said, this information is in my paper. I can't make you read it, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't waste people's time like this.

[hard lines]

No need for insults, i believe my reading and comprehension is just fine.

According to the blueprints, the portion of the refrigeration plant that was outside the building, was the entire refrigeration plant.

If my reading and comprehension is lacking, would you kindly point out to me, where the portion of the refrigeration plant within the footprint is located.

[Gravy]

Holy crap, man, did you not read my previous post? And do you not understand that the towers had refrigeration equipment in their basements? You can even find photos of them on the internet.

We're done. Your reading comprehension is abysmal.

[gumboot]

no blueprints from the WTC have ever been released, unless I am very much mistaken.

The recently released drawings were architectural plans.

-Gumboot

[hard lines]

Holy crap, man, did you not read my previous post? And do you not understand that the towers had refrigeration equipment in their basements? You can even find photos of them on the internet.

We're done. Your reading comprehension is abysmal.

I can see perfectly well where the refrigeration plants are in the basement. They are located between WTC 1 & 2.

Please refer to the "architectural plans" titled, "FloorPlanAtElevations250And253B5Level", "FloorPlanAtElevation264B4Level", and "FloorPlanAtElevation274B3Level"
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/plans/frames.html

I don't doubt there are photos of the refrigeration plant.

Evidence that there were refrigeration plant/s within the footprint of B4?

[Gravy]

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2638339&postcount=220

Welcome to ignore.

[Alt+F4]

How many times do you have to be told, eyewitness testimony is not empirical evidence.
Again, do you have any empirical evidence that every vehicle entering the garage and basement levels since 1993 was sniffed by bomb sniffing dogs? Alt, you realize that this eyewitness helps my case, correct? The PA was there in 1993 as he states and still a truck bomb was detonated in the basement. Also, the individual in the report was in the South Tower area, not the North Tower.
Not only that, you may want to examine the article below of how Middle Eastern man who attempted to get a fake driver's license had access to the 6 sub levels of the towers.

I stand corrected, the K-9 Explosive Unit was not formed until 1996.

If you want to know if every truck that entered the WTC truck dock was inspected and sniffed by a dog, why don't you contact the Port Authority Police Department and ask them? Being a police department I'm sure they keep all sorts of records and reports. Or are you the type of "truther" that only investigoogles?

In regard to the "Sakher 'Rocky' Hammad" story, there was no proof of any terrorist activity on his part. Do you think his presence in the building was suspcious just because he is Middle Eastern? He had a visitor's pass, thousands of people obtained them everyday. Where's the evidence of a connection between 9/11 and the fraudulent driver's license case?

Hammad's trouble began when FBI agents received a tip that Katherine Smith, a local DMV employee, would be selling fraudulent driver's licenses to some Middle Eastern men who had driven there from New York. (Tennessee, which does not require applicants to provide Social Security numbers, has become a favorite destination for people in search of false IDs.) On Feb. 5, the agents swooped in on Hammad and his colleagues, who were in the process of applying for licenses at the Memphis testing station where Smith worked.


Virtually all of the government's suspicion about Hammad's possible terrorist links revolved around a single piece of paper found in his wallet: a visitor's pass for the World Trade Center dated Sept. 5. FBI agent Bolds says the finding was "startling." The New York Times called it "alarming." Again and again investigators and journalists used the pass to prop up the story, without ever explaining why the pass would be of any real importance.

[LashL]

transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0110/06/lklw.00.html

Yes, like I said...

None of Ms. Cruz, Mr. Lever, Mr. Delbianco, or Mr. Griffith (not "Griffin") say that there were bombs or explosives emanating from the sub-basement levels, nor do any of them say that there were explosions prior to the airplane hitting the tower.

Ms. Cruz was in the elevator with Mr. Griffith. Both she and Mr. Griffith describe fire coming down the elevator shaft after the elevator fell several floors. Neither describes any explosions occurring prior to the airplane striking the tower, nor do they describe any explosions coming from below.



The quote you cited does not contradict what I wrote.

[tsig]

Yours.

Something special in my world? Now, now lets not attack the person as the moderators have asked, but instead attack the arguement. See you have missed part of the discussion. You need to read Gravy's source on white smoke in relation to kerosene.

-Empirical evidence? I can't provide any of that as if there were it was destroyed in the collapse. However, if empirical evidence is your response, why then do you accept a fireball without empirical evidence?

Because we know that jets carry jet fuel.

[CHF]

Swing, since you refuse to listen to any of us, maybe you need to hear it from one of your own.

http://www.911review.com/errors/wtc/basementbombs.html

See? Even a twoofer can spot the idiocy of basement bombs in a top-down collapse.

[qarnos]

Technically he's right, although I am sure it's very obvious R.Mackey meant Jet-A fuel.

-Gumboot

Yup. AVGAS is aviation gasoline. Jet fuel is AVTUR.

[Swing Dangler]

There's this bit of nonsense from you:
You realise that you are automatically assuming that kerosene vapor will result in an instant explosion, right? Well, let's say you hav an ingition source, but is your oxygen percentage enough to cause a burn? You premise seems to be that the existance of white smoke, if it is not burnt Kerosene, must automatically explode. That's a false assumption.
White smoke according to Gravy was kerosene vapor. Vapor in order to form, has to have a surfact hot enough to place kerosene on it to form a white vapor. According to Ed, the explosion took place, a stairwell door blew open and out rolled white smoke with no further explosion from the theory that the smoke is kerosene vapor, as per Gravy's paper. Apparently you ignored both articles that mention nothing of white color in regards to jet fuel vapor. How does an explosion in a stairwell supposedly from kerosene vapor, create keroesene vapor???

Because we know that jets carry jet fuel. Yes, and two miracles have to happen for that jet fuel to reach the basement to cause the damage witnessed and described. You believe in miracles in regards to this event, and I don't.


1) McCabe says he was in tower 1.
2) McCabe says he was about 30 feet from the door that blew.
3) McCabe says that just beyond that door was the field office.
4) McCabe says that the people in the field office were burned: "I can smell their burnt flesh."
5) McCabe says that smoke was being drawn up the elevator shaft: "the smoke was being sucked up the shaft now" I think you know that the elevators were in the center of the building, not outside it.
6) The field office was across from the freight elevator.
And you forgot those workers, secretaries to be exact, said a bomb went off in their office. Did you leave that portion out of his account by accident or on purpose? Perhaps you could provide a graphic of the sublevels and place on the plan where you think all of the witnesses were located.

I have repeatedly asked you to justify these statements, and have repeatedly called them straw man arguments. I'm asking you to think about what you write. Here is how I justify the statement. You contend that people who saw a fire ball near the impact level prove a fireball traveled to the basement to cause the destruction there. You content that people who saw a fireball in the basement support that a fireball came from the impact zone. Correct me if I'm wrong so far. Therefore, I'm asking did anyone see the fireball from the impact zone that traveled to the sub-levels? To my knowledge, no. Your assumption, unless I'm mistaken, is that because people saw a fireball near the impact zone and people saw a fireball in the basement, that the fireball came from the same source. In order for that to happen, two miracles have to take place. Arturo Griffith lived and is not burnt by the fireball that traveled down Car 50 to the basement below sub-1. And his wife lived so that a fireball could do the damage in sub-1. Not only that, there is no calculation provided by NIST or any other expert agency that proves a fireball caused the damage. No ratio of air to fuel. No psi calculations, just assumptons. In fact, they made lots of assumptions to determine how much fire burned off and how much didn't in the original impact.
If you want to know if every truck that entered the WTC truck dock was inspected and sniffed by a dog, why don't you contact the Port Authority Police Department and ask them? According to the story below, all documents and records were destroyed.

Gravy, I've repeatedly asked you to point out the errors that you stated I made in my analysis. Will you be doing that anytime soon?
In regards to your strawman:
Gravy since Gumbot got to the claimed straw before me:
Let me see if I understand your position:
So jetfuelA travels all the way the way to the basement in Car 50 shaft to at least sub-4 after impact and initial explosion. Jetfuel travels all the way down Car 6's shaft after the impact and initial explosion.
All of this occurs after the initial impact explosion and remains unignited?
The fuel remains in liquid form even after Mrs. Arturo's terrible burning experience in her elevator car 6 and travels down the shaft unignited. Somehow the shafts are already hot enough to produce kerosene vapor in the form of white smoke but still doesn't ignite. The kerosene vapor travels out of the shaft and into a stairwell to be witnessed by Ed after the door explodes open.
Somehow, it ignites more than once with enough energy to cause two partial collapses at B-4 and the PATH plaza, destroys a parking garage, destroys an office room, knocks people down, burns people, reminds people of the 1993 truck bombing or bombs, and apparently the cause for the FBI's initial working hypothesis that terrorists used a car or truck packed with explosives. That is your excuse for calling stawman? Can anyone say "Razor"?

See? Even a twoofer can spot the idiocy of basement bombs in a top-down collapse. Strawman! Your including the event in the basement near impact time with the top down collapse. I've yet to state I think it caused the collapse initiaition which of course I don't content that. Some twoofers contend that a beam weapon brought down the towers to, that doesn't mean I agree with them.

In regard to the "Sakher 'Rocky' Hammad" story, there was no proof of any terrorist activity on his part. Do you think his presence in the building was suspcious just because he is Middle Eastern? He had a visitor's pass, thousands of people obtained them everyday. Where's the evidence of a connection between 9/11 and the fraudulent driver's license case?
Obtaining a driver's license is not a terrorist activity to my knowledge.
You need to read the multiple press reports on Rocky. A suitable question would be who signed his work pass that allowed him access to all sublevels. He was working for Magic Plumbing or at least that was what his business card had on it. He stated he was working on sprinkler systems on September 5th. However, PA states that they work on the sprinkler systems so he could have been working for a tenet. They have no record of Rocky's presence in the building do to the collapse. His ethnic profile fits that of the terrorists that attacked the building in 1993 and 2001. He also had a cousin with him during his arrest for the driver's license fraud. The woman accused of helping him had apparently help the men obtained man licenses for "cousins" of Rocky's. And she was murdered in a fiery crash before serving as a witness.

You do understand that the descripton of the press being destroyed could simply mean it was knocked over or buried by debris, right? A press that is knocked over doesn't mean it is destroyed. Have you contacted him to determine what exactly he meant, instead of interpeting his statment?
Gravy in your paper you felt the need to interpet the statements regarding the press and insert them into the witness account. Is there any reason why you did that instead of letting the statement stand as is? Was it to try to lessen the extent of damage for the reader?

What was the point of this basement bomb?
Who planted it? In theory alone as I'm not an expert I suggest to weaken the core, to reduce resistance of the sublevels, to try to kill as many people as possible, to hamper fire rescue operations, to split rescue response, to destroy evacuation routes.
Who planted it? So far the only possible suspect is Sakher 'Rocky' Hammadly that I've come across and perhaps his relatives.

[gumboot]

NIST or any other expert agency that proves a fireball caused the damage. No ratio of air to fuel. No psi calculations, just assumptons. In fact, they made lots of assumptions to determine how much fire burned off and how much didn't in the original impact.



NIST wrote an entire paper in which they calculated how much fuel was burned in the fireball from UA175's impact.

Th explosions in the basement were not from a conventional bomb. The injuries and damage reported are not consistent with a bomb. They are consistent with a FAE. You can assume that terrorists planted a FAE in the elevator shafts of the basement, and just happened to detonate it at the same time as the aircraft impacts (roughly), or you can choose to apply Occam's Razor, realise that jet-liner fuel explosions were reported around elevators at dozens of levels in the building, and conclude that the basement explosions were also caused by jetliners.

One of these conclusions is scientific. One is not.

-Gumboot

[hard lines]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]
1) McCabe says he was in tower 1.



[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]
1) McCabe says he was in tower 1.


This is your only evidence that McCabe was in a refrigeration plant within the footprint of WTC 1?

If you note that the big refrigeration plant on B4 has a doorway on the perimeter of WTC 1, would it not be likely that once you step through that door from WTC 1, that you would still refer to that plant room as a WTC 1 plantroom?

Are people who describe parking in the WTC 1 car park mistaken? Should that be evidence that their are car parks within the WTC 1 footprint?

Your evidence is, McCabe says he was in tower 1.


Floor plans show the refrigeration plant room was outside the footprint of WTC 1. Floor plans show no refrigeration plant in the WTC 1 footprint.

McCabe describes going up and down stairs to the plantroom. Besides the fire stairs, there are no stairs anywhere near freight car 50. McCabe does not describe going between floors to the plantroom, he describes the office and the plantroom as being on B4, therefore we must assume their is a split level on the same floor. The large refrigeration plant outside the WTC 1 footprint has a different level than B4 accessed by stair K-13.

McCabe describes walking office workers through the plant to the PATH platform. This can be done via the refrigeration platform outside the WTC 1 footprint. Regardless, if you wish to assume there is another plantroom within the footprint of WTC 1, which is not shown on the floor plans, then you must also assume it is adjoining the PATH platform. There is no such place.

[Swing Dangler]

Yes, just as soon as you read for comprehension what Alt+F4 said and understand how the sources provided do, in fact, confirm what Alt+F4 said. No, the sources (plural) that I provided are not "a survey" but are further evidence of the measures that were undertaken after the 1993 bombing at the WTC.

Your first source:
Security Management surveys high-profile properties to find out.
It included a nice table at the end showing the survey's results as well. I await your retraction or greater reading comprehension on your part.

Here is snip from the other article.
recorded by surveillance cameras; * detected by vehicle ground loop detectors; * controlled by manned, bullet-resistant guard booths, motorized gate arms and anti-ram barriers; and * read by proximity card and electronic vehicle identification (EVI) tag readers. And that's just for starters. If a vehicle stalls, or fails to arrive at its assigned parking space within a predetermined amount of time, a special program will alert the main security command station as well as satellite command centers. If the vehicle proceeds right to its assigned parking area, it will pass still a third security station and another EVI reader that regulates parking lot capacity loading and vehicle reallocation when one lot is full. If the security system picks up an irregularity, the vehicle will not be able to enter or exit the underground parking complex.
So a truck or car packed with explosives can make its way into the sublevels as long as it isn't acting or doing anything "suspicious". Although I'm not sure of the location, we know that bomb sniffing dogs were abruptly removed from
the complex. The World Trade Center was destroyed just days after a heightened security alert was lifted at the landmark 110-story towers, security personnel said yesterday. Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone threats. But on Thursday, bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed.
"Today was the first day there was not the extra security," Coard said. "We were protecting below. We had the ground covered. We didn't figure they would do it with planes. There is no way anyone could have stopped that."NewYork Newsday (http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/attack/nynewsday_wtcdogs.html)

This abrutp removal of bomb sniffing dogs began the day after Rocky has his visitor/work pass to work on sprinklers.

[Swing Dangler]

NIST wrote an entire paper in which they calculated how much fuel was burned in the fireball from UA175's impact.
-Gumboot

The discussion at this point is centered on WTC 1 not WTC 2. But thanks for the input! What I find interesting about their anaysis in regards to WTC 1 and fuel burned is this assumption directly from NIST:
Start by assuming that the only air available for burning was already present when the aircraft struck. This is a plausible assumption given
the short time period available.
They calculated the amount of air on a single floor and multiplied it by 4 floors.

Do you see anything that NIST left out of the assumption in regards to the amount of available oxygen for fuel? The left out the oxygen source from the ENTIRE HOLE FROM THE PLANE. I'm not an expert, but I find this a terrible assumption to calculate the amount of fuel was burned.

[pomeroo]

The discussion at this point is centered on WTC 1 not WTC 2. But thanks for the input! What I find interesting about their anaysis in regards to WTC 1 and fuel burned is this assumption directly from NIST:

They calculated the amount of air on a single floor and multiplied it by 4 floors.

Do you see anything that NIST left out of the assumption in regards to the amount of available oxygen for fuel? The left out the oxygen source from the ENTIRE HOLE FROM THE PLANE. I'm not an expert, but I find this a terrible assumption to calculate the amount of fuel was burned.



Always the same assumption: hundreds of professional scientists and engineers overlook something so obvious that a scientific illiterate can spot it at a glance. What enables you to excel so many highly intelligent and superbly educated people? Do your insights spring from a natural or a supernatural source?

[3bodyproblem]

They calculated the amount of air on a single floor and multiplied it by 4 floors.

Do you see anything that NIST left out of the assumption in regards to the amount of available oxygen for fuel? The left out the oxygen source from the ENTIRE HOLE FROM THE PLANE. I'm not an expert, but I find this a terrible assumption to calculate the amount of fuel was burned.

I'm gonna say the jet wake would effectively close that hole. There might even be reason to believe 4 floors of air was an overestimate. Take a closer look at how the fire ball erupts from the South tower.

[kookbreaker]

White smoke according to Gravy was kerosene vapor. Vapor in order to form, has to have a surfact hot enough to place kerosene on it to form a white vapor. According to Ed, the explosion took place, a stairwell door blew open and out rolled white smoke with no further explosion from the theory that the smoke is kerosene vapor, as per Gravy's paper. Apparently you ignored both articles that mention nothing of white color in regards to jet fuel vapor. How does an explosion in a stairwell supposedly from kerosene vapor, create keroesene vapor???

Again, you make too many assumptions. The smoke could have been from burned kerosene, it could have been from kerosene vapor. Without photos or really detailed descriptions we will never know for certain.

Let's look at both posibililties:

The Smoke Was From Burned Kerosene: This seems to have not even been considered by you. Why is that? Kerosene smoke is especially produced when it is not conbusted at higher temperatures (such as in a jet engine). The kerosene explosion would very likely not have been anywhere near 100% efficiency, would leave both smoke from the burned kerosene, and odor from the unburned kerosene.


The Smoke Was Kersone Vapor: Your complaint here would seem to be that since the Kerosene Vapor had just ignited, that therefore no further Kerosene Vapor could be in the stairwell. This is faulty thinking. It assumes that the Kerosene explosion was 100% efficient which is extremely unlikely. A kerosene explosion would be enough to cause the door to burst open, and would easily heat a remainder to a vapor without automatically igniting it (due to low oxygen supply, lack of heat or other conditions). Given the random nature of the FAE in the shafts, this is a posibility.

These circumstances are not only possible, but probable. Certainly they are much more likely than your complaints, which assume a 100% efficient consumption of the fuel.

[PhantomWolf]

JUst out of curiosity, what sort of explosive device creates a fireball anyway? I know that they do on TV and in movies, but that's because they use gasoline. I mean a real explosive device like is being claimed to have been used in the WRC basement.

[CHF]

Strawman! Your including the event in the basement near impact time with the top down collapse. I've yet to state I think it caused the collapse initiaition which of course I don't content that. Some twoofers contend that a beam weapon brought down the towers to, that doesn't mean I agree with them.

I never said you claimed it was the collapse initiation, Swing. I merely point out that a basement bomb is pointless. You prove this here:

In theory alone as I'm not an expert I suggest to weaken the core, to reduce resistance of the sublevels, to try to kill as many people as possible, to hamper fire rescue operations, to split rescue response, to destroy evacuation routes.

Weaken the core - You mean the same core that stood after the collapse? The area where survivors were found?

Reduce resistance of the sublevels - so the bad guys were afraid the collapse would not proceed past ground level? Is that what you're saying?

Kill people - yet it burned them instead. And smelled like kerosene.

Hamper rescue ops - so you also think the bad guys will kill thousands with planes yet are gonna throw in a risky basement bomb for the sake of a few more???

No wonder you tried to avoid presenting a logical reason for this basement bomb.

Who planted it? So far the only possible suspect is Sakher 'Rocky' Hammadly that I've come across and perhaps his relatives.

I'd have a lot more respect for you if you just stated what you think. Be a man and say it, Swing: government demolition squads blew up the WTC sub-levels. Why this childish reluctance on your part?

[kookbreaker]

JUst out of curiosity, what sort of explosive device creates a fireball anyway? I know that they do on TV and in movies, but that's because they use gasoline. I mean a real explosive device like is being claimed to have been used in the WRC basement.

All explosions make some sort of fireball. Its just a question of how large it is and how much effect it will have compared to its other devastating effects. If you are in the fireball range of High Explosives, you are going to be torn apart by the blast rather than be burnt. FAEs sort of work the same way. Low explosives (such as fertilizer bombs) are more likely to have a fireball that can burn a person, but they are somewhere around the fourth order of damaging factors.

What often happens, and is mistaken for bomb damage, is that fuel gets tossed by the blast and ignited. This can happen, especially if someone deliberately puts fuel around the bomb. But strictly speaking it is not bomb damage.

[CHF]

If you are in the fireball range of High Explosives, you are going to be torn apart by the blast rather than be burnt.

Exactly! We've got people walking around with their flesh hanging off for Christ's sake. How on earth does the fire from an explosive do that and yet leave them alive with all their limbs attatched?

[PhantomWolf]

All explosions make some sort of fireball.

All explosives I have seen create a flash rather then a fireball. Granted a diesel fertiziler might because the diesel may vapourize to some extent, but even the one explosion I have seen using that had a limited fireball that was extigushed by the blast. I'm looking for something that could funnel a fireball up the elevator shafts and cause the burns that were reported.

eta: BTW the explosives I have seen include. Gunpowder, C4, Blasting Gel, TNT, Dynamite, and Diesel/Fertiliser. Explosive devices include land mines, mortor rounds, artillery shells, and blasting caps. I haven't seen any that produce an explosive fire ball that would burn a victim like the witnesses recalled in the WTC.

[LashL]

Your first source:
Security Management surveys high-profile properties to find out.
It included a nice table at the end showing the survey's results as well. I await your retraction or greater reading comprehension on your part.

No, I will not be offering a retraction, and my reading comprehension is perfectly fine.

You conveniently left out the fact that your post was, in fact, incorrect as written; you still do not understand what Alt+F4 wrote or what I cited; you have still not figured out what it is that you are missing, whether because of a legitimate reading comprehension issue or wilful blindness, I cannot tell; and you haven't completed steps 1 and 2 as set out previously.

For ease of reference, I will reproduce my prior post for your convenience:

No, the sources (plural) that I provided are not "a survey" but are further evidence of the measures that were undertaken after the 1993 bombing at the WTC. Once you have completed step 1 above (reading for comprehension and understanding what you have mischaracterized about Alt+F4's prior post), then you should complete step 2 and read the sources Alt+F4 posted and the additional ones that I posted.

Only then will you be ready to discuss further. You have to understand the basics first, and so far, it appears that you are missing the basics.

[beachnut]

Source and empirical evidence, please?

So I decided to take a look at the worst case scenario: A Review of the Flammability Hazard of JetA Fuel Vapor In Civil Transport Aircraft Fuel Tanks. (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:OFclwGGrHiYJ:www.tc.faa.gov/its/worldpac/techrpt/ar98-26.pdf+what+is+the+color+of+jet+fuel+vapor%3F&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=us&client=firefox-a) And to my suprise, there is not a single mention of JetA fuel vapor in a white smoke form. Well to give you the benefit of the doubt I decided to check out Shepherd, J. E., Explosion of Aviation Kerosene (Jet A) Vapors, CIT Presentation at
NTSB Meeting, October 7, 1997, NTSB Docket No. SA-516, Exhibit No. 20F. (http://www.galcit.caltech.edu/EDL/projects/JetA/reports/EX_20F.PDF)
And to my suprise again, not a single mention of jetA fuel vapors being white.
Wrong. I have seen Jet fuel dumped, it is white in the day, it looks like a cloud, not sure why the truth movement gets every single fact wrong. You should have asked a pilot what color the fuel vapor appears to be. Like a cloud, white. Next.

[beachnut]

Which is essentially less volatile than avgas.

Just stating the facts.but more energy, and your point?

[beachnut]

There was no avgas in the WTCBut you forgot to point out that jet fuel has even more energy than avgas. 315 tons of TNT energy in the jet fuel, was that right? Is that per jet?

[gumboot]

Wrong. I have seen Jet fuel dumped, it is white in the day, it looks like a cloud, not sure why the truth movement gets every single fact wrong. You should have asked a pilot what color the fuel vapor appears to be. Like a cloud, white. Next.


I knew we should have asked beachnut. If anyone would know what colour jet fuel vapour is, it would be a KC-135 Stratotanker instructor.

-Gumboot

[hard lines]

but more energy, and your point?

A highly volatile fuel is more likely to form an explosive mixture with air. Avgas opposed to jet fuel is more likely to form an explosive mixture with air.

[Swing Dangler]

Wrong. I have seen Jet fuel dumped, it is white in the day, it looks like a cloud, not sure why the truth movement gets every single fact wrong. You should have asked a pilot what color the fuel vapor appears to be. Like a cloud, white. Next.

You do know the difference between a liquid and a gas correct?
Where was the fuel dumped? Besides, we are talking about the jetfuel vapor (gas form), not the fuel itself (liquid form). So according to you, the jet fuel placed in the jet is white to begin with? Everytime I filled the old kerosene heater, the kerosene was clear liquid form.
No, I will not be offering a retraction, and my reading comprehension is perfectly fine.
The funny thing is, you said your source wasn't a survey, and I just showed you that it was. What is your pointing in arguing this any further?

Weaken the core - You mean the same core that stood after the collapse? The area where survivors were found?
The terrorists weren't pefect you know! They were 3 for 4 overall and about missed the South Tower, so there is room for error in the event itself.

Reduce resistance of the sublevels - so the bad guys were afraid the collapse would not proceed past ground level? Is that what you're saying?
No even OBL said they didn't expect a global collapse. Perhaps that is why they did it.

Kill people - yet it burned them instead. And smelled like kerosene.
Explosions burn people, yes. And One witness who smelled the kerosene thought it was coming from a vehicle in the parking garage.


Hamper rescue ops - so you also think the bad guys will kill thousands with planes yet are gonna throw in a risky basement bomb for the sake of a few more???
Hey if your willing to risk hijacking multiple airliners, sneaking weapons on board, and flying extended routes away from the target, I have no problem with a risk factor. The whole operation was a huge risk factor.

Again, you make too many assumptions. The smoke could have been from burned kerosene, it could have been from kerosene vapor. Without photos or really detailed descriptions we will never know for certain.
I've burned kerosene many times. Never was white smoke produced. I've seen the results of many airline crashes and no white smoke produced from the kerosene.

Why this childish reluctance on your part
I'm viewing the event within the official story. I could say that but can I prove that? No. I have already listed a potential suspect below.

Your complaint here would seem to be that since the Kerosene Vapor had just ignited, that therefore no further Kerosene Vapor could be in the stairwell.
No, I'm stating there wasn't kerosene vapor at all and that kerosene smoke when burnt is not white.
The Smoke Was From Burned Kerosene: This seems to have not even been considered by you. Why is that? Kerosene smoke is especially produced when it is not conbusted at higher temperatures (such as in a jet engine). Kerosene when burnt is dark and black not white. I know you have seen the impact videos. Where is the white smoke? Where is the white smoke in the lobby from the Naudet Brother's film? With the amount of damage in the basement, one would expect to see large amounts of white smoke in and around the lobby's or at least coming out of the garage areas near ground level.

Exactly! We've got people walking around with their flesh hanging off for Christ's sake. How on earth does the fire from an explosive do that and yet leave them alive with all their limbs attatched?
Did you consider other combustibles that may have ignited from the initial explosion?

POM-What enables you to excel so many highly intelligent and superbly educated people?
I don't think I excel so many highly educated people. I read the relevant section in the NIST report to analyse how they determined the remaining fuel left in the building. I posted the relevant information. Have you read that section or did you ignore that portion of my post?
Start by assuming that the only air available for burning was already present when the aircraft struck. This is a plausible assumption given
the short time period available.-NIST