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headscratcher4
15th August 2003, 09:56 AM
Large chunks, though not the complete piece, of an interesting editorial by Nicholas Kristof in today's NY.Times.

The link to the full piece is at the bottome (though you will likely need to register for the NYTimes to open it).....



August 15, 2003
OP-ED COLUMNIST
Believe It, or Not
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF




Today marks the Roman Catholics' Feast of the Assumption, honoring the moment that they believe God brought the Virgin Mary into Heaven. So here's a fact appropriate for the day: Americans are three times as likely to believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus (83 percent) as in evolution (28 percent).
So this day is an opportunity to look at perhaps the most fundamental divide between America and the rest of the industrialized world: faith. Religion remains central to American life, and is getting more so, in a way that is true of no other industrialized country, with the possible exception of South Korea.
Americans believe, 58 percent to 40 percent, that it is necessary to believe in God to be moral. In contrast, other developed countries overwhelmingly believe that it is not necessary. In France, only 13 percent agree with the U.S. view. (For details on the polls cited in this column, go to www.nytimes.com/kristofresponds.)
The faith in the Virgin Birth reflects the way American Christianity is becoming less intellectual and more mystical over time. The percentage of Americans who believe in the Virgin Birth actually rose five points in the latest poll.
My grandfather was fairly typical of his generation: A devout and active Presbyterian elder, he nonetheless believed firmly in evolution and regarded the Virgin Birth as a pious legend. Those kinds of mainline Christians are vanishing, replaced by evangelicals. Since 1960, the number of Pentecostalists has increased fourfold, while the number of Episcopalians has dropped almost in half.
The result is a gulf not only between America and the rest of the industrialized world, but a growing split at home as well. One of the most poisonous divides is the one between intellectual and religious America.
Some liberals wear T-shirts declaring, "So Many Right-Wing Christians . . . So Few Lions." On the other side, there are attitudes like those on a Web site, dutyisours.com/gwbush.htm, explaining the 2000 election this way:
"God defeated armies of Philistines and others with confusion. Dimpled and hanging chads may also be because of God's intervention on those who were voting incorrectly. Why is GW Bush our president? It was God's choice."
The Virgin Mary is an interesting prism through which to examine America's emphasis on faith because most Biblical scholars regard the evidence for the Virgin Birth, and for Mary's assumption into Heaven (which was proclaimed as Catholic dogma only in 1950), as so shaky that it pretty much has to be a leap of faith. As the Catholic theologian Hans Küng puts it in "On Being a Christian," the Virgin Birth is a "collection of largely uncertain, mutually contradictory, strongly legendary" narratives, an echo of virgin birth myths that were widespread in many parts of the ancient world.
Jaroslav Pelikan, the great Yale historian and theologian, says in his book "Mary Through the Centuries" that the earliest references to Mary (like Mark's gospel, the first to be written, or Paul's letter to the Galatians) don't mention anything unusual about the conception of Jesus. The Gospels of Matthew and Luke do say Mary was a virgin, but internal evidence suggests that that part of Luke, in particular, may have been added later by someone else (it is written, for example, in a different kind of Greek than the rest of that gospel).
Yet despite the lack of scientific or historical evidence, and despite the doubts of Biblical scholars, America is so pious that not only do 91 percent of Christians say they believe in the Virgin Birth, but so do an astonishing 47 percent of U.S. non-Christians.



http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/15/opinion/15KRIS.html

The Mad Linguist
15th August 2003, 10:15 AM
Yet despite the lack of scientific or historical evidence, and despite the doubts of Biblical scholars, America is so pious that not only do 91 percent of Christians say they believe in the Virgin Birth, but so do an astonishing 47 percent of U.S. non-Christians.

That wouldn't be the Muslim contingent, would it?

The Don
15th August 2003, 10:50 AM
Wheras not even all bishops believe in a literal virgin birth

http://www.afa.net/journal/september/2002/don.asp

or...

http://www.lifebpc.com/resources/sermon/polm14.htm

"Two or three years ago I remember the Bishop of Durham denying the Virgin Birth on the BBC to the chagrin of faithful Anglicans. The irony of it all was when a Synod of Bishops was called soon after the Bishop of Durham’s denial, of fifty English Bishops the vote was taken with forty-five of them supporting the renegade Bishop. Ninety per cent therefore of the leadership of the Church of England are also deniers of the Virgin Birth of Christ. "


Way to go Church of England !!!!

I'll_buy_that
15th August 2003, 11:26 AM
what a sickening site this is: http://dutyisours.com/gwbush.htm

sick sick sick sick.

Daniel 2:21 He (God) changes times and seasons; he sets up kings and deposes them. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning.

with their argument...

I guess it was god's will for Saddam to remain in office for 30 years until someone like GW can come along and get his armies to dispose of him. the millions killed along the way are just details.

Ipecac
15th August 2003, 12:37 PM
I was just coming here to post about that article.

Very, very depressing. People are idiots. Maybe I should amend that to Americans are idiots. :(

Sindai
15th August 2003, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Ipecac
I was just coming here to post about that article.

Very, very depressing. People are idiots. Maybe I should amend that to Americans are idiots. :(

Hey! All generalizations are incorrect, you jerk. :p

Charlie Monoxide
15th August 2003, 01:27 PM
My heart goes out to Joseph. Imagine being cuckolded by god.

Charlie (Jesus's brother Bob - Arrogant Worms) Monoxide

I'll_buy_that
15th August 2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Charlie Monoxide
My heart goes out to Joseph. Imagine being cuckolded by god.

Charlie (Jesus's brother Bob - Arrogant Worms) Monoxide


"YOU HAD SEX WITH WHO!!!!!!" :eek:

Yahweh
15th August 2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by Ipecac
I was just coming here to post about that article.

Very, very depressing. People are idiots. Maybe I should amend that to Americans are idiots. :(
Not all of them, just that huge 91% majority... that doesnt say a whole lot toward inspiration, does it...

Correa Neto
15th August 2003, 06:33 PM
How many people were killed by wars and conflicts that started due to religion, started by people who belive in God? More than those in the conflicts started by scientific discusions... Never found any records of wars started by divergent schools of physycs, astronomy, geology, etc.

Scientific (creationist) explanations for the virgin birth:

1- Mary was an amoeba (therefore Jesus was an amoeba too- but an amoeba could not be nailed on a cross)
2- Partenogenesis (if a lizzard can do it, a human can do it better)
3- Mary was hemaphrodite and... Whoops! It would be like masturbation, and its a sin!
4- Mary took a bath on a river. Above current someone was commitinf the same sin Onan commited and produced a spermatozoid that was a very good swimmer. So, Jesus was the product of a sin.

So, the remaining option is 2.

Satan has a place in Hell reserved for me...

headscratcher4
16th August 2003, 09:51 AM
One interesting aspect of this phenomenon is the co-mingling of catholic and protestant beliefs. By this I mean, the article notes that belief in "virgin" birth -- while not necessary to either Catholic or Protestant tradition -- is growing in both branches of christianity. The Pope, in particular, has placed great emphasis on Mary and the "Marian" tradition (going so far as to consider Mary a "co-redeemer" along with Jesus). Now, too, evangelical Protestants have elevated Mary (not unlike "Creationist" science, as a foundation for their own fundamentalist beliefs.

The thing is that Mary, while important to Jesus, is from my reading of the Bible, is pretty neigh on irrelevant to the story of Jesus and his redemption of humanity.

Correa Neto
16th August 2003, 09:56 AM
Yep, you got a point. My sarcasm regarding to "virgin birth" doctrine is partially based on the implications it has for women's behavior, as seen according to the catholic church doctrines.

A lot of oppresion has been justified inthis way, and when protestants start to use this dogma, in a world that is becoming increasingly conservative, bad things can result...

as always, edited to correct some typos

Cleopatra
16th August 2003, 01:50 PM
Yet despite the lack of scientific or historical evidence, and despite the doubts of Biblical scholars, America is so pious that not only do 91 percent of Christians say they believe in the Virgin Birth, but so do an astonishing 47 percent of U.S. non-Christians.

Ok I understand that the Christians believe in the Virgin Birth but what about this 47% of the non-Christians that believe in the same thing.

How can this be? How you explain it? Is there any possibility that the poll is not accurate? It must not be accurate, I cannot explain it otherwise.

Cleopatra
16th August 2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Ipecac


Maybe I should amend that to Americans are idiots. :(

You sound like a Greek communist now :)

Maybe you should start wondering what makes so many people religious.

The Mad Linguist
16th August 2003, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Cleopatra
but what about this 47% of the non-Christians that believe in the same thing.How can this be? How you explain it? Is there any possibility that the poll is not accurate? It must not be accurate, I cannot explain it otherwise.

Muslims?

Cleopatra
16th August 2003, 02:18 PM
Do you mean that Muslims believe in the Virgin Birth ? Do you think that it would make sense if Muslims believed in the "Christian miracles"?

Cleopatra
16th August 2003, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by headscratcher4

The thing is that Mary, while important to Jesus, is from my reading of the Bible, is pretty neigh on irrelevant to the story of Jesus and his redemption of humanity.

I am not sure about that. I mean, in order to have the Son,they needed a female figureas well. The pattern of Father -Mother- Son is very ancient in religions of Middle east.It's believed that YHWH's "mother" was Asherah and under the assyrian influence the gnostics elevated " wisdom" --Pistis Sofia in Greek-- to a important female figure. Now, it's seems that those who really created mainstream Christianity, fulfilled the female presence they needed,with Mary.

So, theologically speaking, at least the way I understand it, Mary is an important figure to the history of Jesus.

Yahweh
16th August 2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Cleopatra
Ok I understand that the Christians believe in the Virgin Birth but what about this 47% of the non-Christians that believe in the same thing.

How can this be? How you explain it? Is there any possibility that the poll is not accurate? It must not be accurate, I cannot explain it otherwise.
The Christian faith isnt the only one that has its very own "born of a spotless virgin" story (see Egyptian, Macedonian, etc. for more examples).

Some people might believe in their own personal gods (that may or not be similar to the Christian God), they could believe events inexplicable by science can and do happen.

Then you got that statistical percentage of the population who are just "very very optimistic".

Or perhaps if they put some thought in their decision, they might have reasoned that a virgin could technically become artificially impregnated in a clinic. It is a virgin birth of unremarkable and fairly explainable happenings (then again if they've reasoned this far, it wouldnt apply the Virgin Birth of Christ).

Edited to correct funky grammar.

The Mad Linguist
16th August 2003, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by Cleopatra
Do you mean that Muslims believe in the Virgin Birth ? Do you think that it would make sense if Muslims believed in the "Christian miracles"?

Well, Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet sent by Allah. Seems logical Allah would send a miracle or two. Anyway, yes, I'm sure I recall that Muslims believe in the Virgin Birth.

Cleopatra
17th August 2003, 02:28 AM
Yes, indeed (http://www.islam-101.org/)

The question regarding what makes so many people believe in such stories, remains.

The Mad Linguist
17th August 2003, 06:10 AM
I'd be wary of that site if I were you, Cleopatra. It presents itself as Muslim but looking down it seems to be pretty anti-Muslim. My "dodgy" meter was buzzing at level 10.

Correa Neto
17th August 2003, 08:11 AM
A little OT, but if I recall correctly, the church once discussed (before or at the begginig of the Middle Ages) if the Virgin continued a virgin AFTER Jesus was born... And they decided for a yes:rolleyes: ...

Cesarian, maybe...

The Mad Linguist
17th August 2003, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by Correa Neto
A little OT, but if I recall correctly, the church once discussed (before or at the begginig of the Middle Ages) if the Virgin continued a virgin AFTER Jesus was born... And they decided for a yes

Makes you wonder how on earth he acquired brothers.

Cleopatra
17th August 2003, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by The Mad Linguist
I'd be wary of that site if I were you, Cleopatra. It presents itself as Muslim but looking down it seems to be pretty anti-Muslim. My "dodgy" meter was buzzing at level 10.

:eek:

You see how evil this God of Google is?? If I had access to my Koran in print I wouldn't need a site.Maybe I should have known by the lay-out of the page...

But the reference seems valid though.Thanks for pointing it out.

evildave
17th August 2003, 09:51 AM
Then stick a shortcut to this in your browser.

Various sacred texts.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm

Correa Neto
18th August 2003, 03:25 AM
Originally posted by The Mad Linguist


Makes you wonder how on earth he acquired brothers.

Complacent himen. Very complacent.