Oh, those patriots at LCF [Archive]

rightshu

20th May 2007, 10:06 AM

I often wonder how these people say that the world sees them as the greatest country...when they themselves don't like it.
They're not patriots, they're just bored and found this to fill in their time.
What makes a coutry great anyway?

My general criteria are:
Property rights. By establishing that a person has an intrinsic right to the fruits of his labor, and by severely circumscribing the privilege of government to take from those fruits without reasonable justification (something that would stand up in a court challenge; see #2, below), you give a citizen the desire to succeed and the means to maintain his success.
Rule of law. By making sure that every citizen has "equal protection under the law", and by codifying the government's submission to its own laws, a nation protects its citizenry from the vagaries and whims of its governors. Let's face it -- politicians and apparatchiks are just people, like you and I are. If you gave me unlimited power, I'd build a rocket-powered hovercraft that was packed to the brim with cocaine and hot gymnasts. With an independent judiciary, these urges can be checked by giving citizens a recourse to have their grievances redressed.
A free press. In forcing the government to keep its hands off the media (or at least to intervene as little as possible), nations can ensure that their citizenry is informed as accurately as possible on the behavior of their government.These things form my "holy triad". Each is interdependent upon the others, and each reinforces the strength of the others. Nations that have these three things to some greater or lesser extent, also tend not to suffer famines, at least according to Nobel laureate Amartya Sen.

America has all this psycopaths and serial killers and kids shooting other kids in schools and 300 channels on christianity and evangelism.
We dont' have that kind of stuff in Portugal...or Europe for that matter.O RLY?

France
Michel Fourniret - confessed to 9 murders; allegedly killed 10 more
Hélène Jegado - domestic servant who poisoned at least 23 people between 1833 and 1851; executed in 1852
Henri Désiré Landru - killed 11 people; inspired the character of Monsieur Verdoux played by Charlie Chaplin
Émile Louis - preyed on young handicapped women
Marcel Petiot - doctor who killed 63 would-be refugees from the Nazis; executed in 1946
Gilles de Rais - 15th century demonolator and child-killer
Joseph Vacher - aka The French Ripper; 19th century serial killer of 11 individualsItaly
Luigi Chiatti - aka the Monster of Foligno; victims were children
Leonarda Cianciulli - aka Soap-Maker of Correggio; murderess of 3 women
Pietro Pacciani - aka the Monster of Florence; victims were young couples
Roberto Succo - murdered at least five individuals, including his parentsLatvia
Kaspars Petrovs - convicted of murdering 13 elderly Riga women in 2005; confessed to killing 38Netherlands
Lucia de Berk - nurse, convicted of killing at least 7 and attempting 3 murders in the 2000s
Maria Swanenburg - killed 27 with arsenic in the 1880s

Face it. People are bad everywhere. People are good everywhere. Saying that America is bad because we've had serial killers is just as ridiculous as saying that Europe is bad because you had Hitler.

Hourglassmemory

20th May 2007, 10:17 AM

I am in no way saying that Europe doesn't have serial killers or isn't bad.
America just seems a country more susceptible to events such as school shootings and evangelical channels. Because of this, it probably isn't the most balanced country in the world.
Yes, freedom of speech. We also have that in Portugal and the rest of Europe, you just don't see people making conspiracy movies and tele-evangelists taking away your money. Not in the numbers you see in America anyway.

JAStewart

20th May 2007, 10:30 AM

We dont' have that kind of stuff in Portugal...or Europe for that matter.

kid theft is pretty bad.

rightshu

20th May 2007, 10:39 AM

I am in no way saying that Europe doesn't have serial killers or isn't bad.

America has all this psycopaths and serial killers and kids shooting other kids in schools and 300 channels on christianity and evangelism.
We dont' have that kind of stuff in Portugal...or Europe for that matter.

Please don't backpedal. You said that Europe doesn't "have that kind of stuff".

Also please note that I didn't say that Europe did not have freedom of speech. I said that a free press is one of my three criteria for a great country. I lived in Germany for a few years and I loved Europe. I had a great time and got to know many great people. I think that most of Europe is made up of great countries. I think there are a few (primarily formerly Soviet Bloc countries) that have made astounding strides in the past 20 years considering their starting positions.

Too, wasn't one of the early no-plane Pentagon proponents French? Thierry Meyssan, right? Didn't he kind of get the ball rolling?

As for the televangelists, no, you don't have as many televangelists (indeed, I don't remember seeing any in the early 1990s). On the other hand, I think you may believe that there are more televangelists here in America than is actually the case. On my cable provider (Cox Digital), we have by my count three religiously-oriented channels: one public-access channel (full of kooks and woos from all across the religious spectrum -- including non-Christian religions), one Protestant channel (Trinity Broadcast Network), and one Catholic channel (EWTN). This out of 300+ channels. I can live with 1% of my television channels being religious, when far greater than 1% of the populace is.

I'm not saying America is perfect. But I also don't believe that it's any worse (or any better) than most European nations. Each has areas in which they succeed; each has its failures.

Thus endeth my rant.

Hourglassmemory

20th May 2007, 10:48 AM

Each has areas in which they succeed; each has its failures.

Yes, each has its failure and successes.
We'll leave it at that.

Sword_Of_Truth

20th May 2007, 12:46 PM

Hey Hourglass, you read european history much?

Comunism, naziism, ethnic cleansing, concentration camps, gulags, mobile gas chambers, racial purity laws, murder mechanized with 20th century technology and applied on a scale never before seen in history... all bearing the "Made in Europe" label.

And evangelical channels? What of them? People pushing their religion on TV air time that they paid for themselves is a far cry from the Spanish Inquisition.

I'm not an American, but the fact remains that the alleged cultural superiority of europe is a blood-soaked myth.

jhunter1163

20th May 2007, 01:40 PM

And evangelical channels? What of them? People pushing their religion on TV air time that they paid for themselves is a far cry from the Spanish Inquisition.

I didn't expect that in a thread about patriotism, but then no one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

firecoins

20th May 2007, 01:46 PM

My general criteria are:

Property rights. By establishing that a person has an intrinsic right to the fruits of his labor, and by severely circumscribing the privilege of government to take from those fruits without reasonable justification (something that would stand up in a court challenge; see #2, below), you give a citizen the desire to succeed and the means to maintain his success.
Rule of law. By making sure that every citizen has "equal protection under the law", and by codifying the government's submission to its own laws, a nation protects its citizenry from the vagaries and whims of its governors. Let's face it -- politicians and apparatchiks are just people, like you and I are. If you gave me unlimited power, I'd build a rocket-powered hovercraft that was packed to the brim with cocaine and hot gymnasts. With an independent judiciary, these urges can be checked by giving citizens a recourse to have their grievances redressed.
A free press. In forcing the government to keep its hands off the media (or at least to intervene as little as possible), nations can ensure that their citizenry is informed as accurately as possible on the behavior of their government.These things form my "holy triad". Each is interdependent upon the others, and each reinforces the strength of the others. Nations that have these three things to some greater or lesser extent, also tend not to suffer famines, at least according to Nobel laureate Amartya Sen.

Mine are:

1. Separation of Church and State: A secular government is necessary part of freedom of religion or freedom to not have a religion. Religious authorities have no place in government.

2. Freedom of Speech, Assembly, Press, Religion: Reasons already stated. I particularly need freedom of expression for artisitic and political purposes.

3. Separation of Economy and Government: Same as private property rights as far as I am concerned. This is the ability to pursue happiness without interference of the government as long as one does not impose on other people.

HannibalGroup

20th May 2007, 02:37 PM

I didn't expect that in a thread about patriotism, but then no one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

That's because their chief weapon is surprise.

The Silver Shadow

20th May 2007, 02:39 PM

mortimer

20th May 2007, 04:01 PM

That's because their chief weapon is surprise.

And fear.

Sword_Of_Truth

20th May 2007, 04:09 PM

And fear.

And ruthless efficiency.

Foolmewunz

20th May 2007, 04:45 PM

And ruthless efficiency.

Has Ruth been banned?

Mr.D

20th May 2007, 05:00 PM

The truthers are just kids. They claim hate for their country because it's a form of rebellion, a way to make themselves feel important and right. Many will grow up and not think of conspiracies anymore.

Bolding mine.

On the other (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_Lindh) hand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unibomber) ...

MG1962

20th May 2007, 05:01 PM

I wonder how many of them have actually been out of the country they are bellyaching about. When I was in the US the only thing I thought sucked about the country was the coffee.

But seriously you can't appreciate the positves and negatives of your own country till you have experienced others. I love Australia dearly, but do have to say the US impressed the pants off me. If it is the worst country, I would love to know the best lol

T.A.M.

20th May 2007, 05:02 PM

The truthers are just kids. They claim hate for their country because it's a form of rebellion, a way to make themselves feel important and right. Many will grow up and not think of conspiracies anymore.

Exactly...in 10 years, Luke, Korey, Dylan, Jason, and all their teen and twenty something followers will have wives, kids, dogs, picket fences, and the crap that is the 9/11 truth movement will be a distant, forgotten memory.

TAM:)

sivazh

20th May 2007, 05:24 PM

But, I thought they loved America and were only seeking the troof to protect us all?

Damn, I'm so disillusioned right now...

MarkyX

20th May 2007, 05:26 PM

Did someone screenshot the poll?

Foolmewunz

20th May 2007, 05:56 PM

Did someone screenshot the poll?

I asked the same question. Apparently not.
As I remember the last time I viewed it they had 12 votes USA, 10 for Israel, about 6 for UK, and the rest were onesies and twosies. There were only a total of 36 votes so the top three encompassed a little more than 75% of the total.

T.A.M.

20th May 2007, 06:38 PM

Be nice to hand a screen shot of this to Hannity and Colmes, for their rant on Rosie and Dylan...

TAM:)

Stellafane

20th May 2007, 08:47 PM

The truthers are just kids. They claim hate for their country because it's a form of rebellion, a way to make themselves feel important and right. Many will grow up and not think of conspiracies anymore.

Bingo. I see this contempt for the USA not as a genuine philosophical/political position, but rather as a phase, sort of a continuation of their rebellion against their parents. It's an attempt to try on adulthood and establish an identity of their own. Of course, they don't quite have the individualism and sophistication to really stand for anything, so they do the next best thing: they define themselves by what they don't stand for. And the more ambitious of them go all out and claim to reject the United States itself. Of course, sooner or later they usually mature enough to recognize that it's easy to criticize, but much, much harder to actually formulate creative and workable alternatives. So at that point they "put away childish things" and get on with the task of actually living a real life. Those unable to make the transition, however, are probably doomed to end up bitter and marginalized.

Slayhamlet

20th May 2007, 08:50 PM

I'm not sure why everbody's acting so surprised about this. The poll results are the natural consequence of their delusions, after all.

WildCat

20th May 2007, 09:33 PM

I wonder how many of them have actually been out of the country they are bellyaching about. When I was in the US the only thing I thought sucked about the country was the coffee.
You have to add the whiskey yourself here.

MG1962

20th May 2007, 09:44 PM

Single or double malt?

Unsecured Coins

20th May 2007, 10:07 PM

Single or double malt?

that's a personal preference. But me, I like to go with a 182 year old oak barrelled aged special family recipe sipping whiskey

WildCat

20th May 2007, 10:23 PM

Single or double malt?
Jameson's works for me.

Mashuna

21st May 2007, 12:15 AM

Single or double malt?

You're adding it to coffee, does it really matter?

NickUK

21st May 2007, 03:12 AM

I'm glad they didn't see fit to choose any countries that execute homosexuals, starve their population to death, have the same leader for decades, chop people's heads off in public, sponsor worldwide terrorism or legally treat women as second class citizens.

I'm glad they chose that bastards who can't spell 'colour' correctly.

:D

Just shows again that perspective isn't exactly their strong point.

Travis

21st May 2007, 03:54 AM

Mobyseven

21st May 2007, 05:21 AM

Slight derail, on the subject of European views of the US.

When I was in college we had one student from The Netherlands who openly despised the US. She always called it the "Land of the un-Free." She was the very first Conspiracy Theorist I actually met. This was before 9/11 so her pet conspiracy theory was that Apollo was hoaxed. Her Reason? "Americans are too stupid to do anything right." I always wondered why, if Americans are so stupid, she was going to college in the US? I never got to ask her that.

We had a gal from Australia too. She was really neat, and I think every guy on campus asked her out at least twice (including me, I'm a sucker for the Aussie accent).

July 5th, 2001

CHENEY: Sir, this just in - apparently Australian girls are attractive. One agent even described them as being "Smoking Hot".

BUSH: Hmm...we must have this precious natural resource all to ourselves. But how...?

CHENEY: We could organise a false-flag terrorist operation, striking at the economic and military heart of our own country. A few years down the track, we'll use contrived evidence to invade a country completely unrelated to the 'terrorist' attacks, and form a 'coalition of the willing' to follow us in. The Australians will join, because ever since we brainwashed their Prime Minister he's had an unnatural fixation on you. The war will significantly weaken the Australian military, and will cause unrest in a population that for the most part does not support it. Then, while Australia is weakened, we withdraw from the war we got them into and invade their country, sending all the sexually active males to a military prison in another country...perhaps Cuba? With all the males out of the way...

BUSH: ...the chicks will be ours! Brilliant plan, Cheney! Call Satan will you, cancel my two o'clock lunch.

As Cheney exits the room, Bush puts on The Flight of the Valkeries and practises his maniacal, evil villian laugh, before settling down to a brunch of human liver and small kittens...

Par

21st May 2007, 05:28 AM

Mobyseven: C- Must do better.

Stellafane

21st May 2007, 07:07 AM

Slight derail, on the subject of European views of the US.

When I was in college we had one student from The Netherlands who openly despised the US. She always called it the "Land of the un-Free." She was the very first Conspiracy Theorist I actually met. This was before 9/11 so her pet conspiracy theory was that Apollo was hoaxed. Her Reason? "Americans are too stupid to do anything right." I always wondered why, if Americans are so stupid, she was going to college in the US? I never got to ask her that.

We had a gal from Australia too. She was really neat, and I think every guy on campus asked her out at least twice (including me, I'm a sucker for the Aussie accent).

I once went on a business trip to Germany. My hosts couldn't possibly have been nicer to me personally, taking my coworkers and me out to fancy dinner and showing us the sights. However, they made no bones about the fact that they considered the standard of living in America to be very low. "Just look at South Bronx" one of them said matter-of-factly, as though South Bronx typified the entire US. They did this with no apparent animosity or self-consciousness whatsoever, as though we were discussing a self-evident fact, like the sky being blue.

I don't know whether this constitutes anti-Americanism per se, but I think it does demonstrate that at least some Europeans are willing to make sweeping generalizations about the US, which may or may not be entirely accurate. (At least we got off better than the Swiss, whom my German hosts dismissed as "a bunch of racists.")

Spindrift

21st May 2007, 07:32 AM

Not sure I'd make to much out of this. If they had a poll of the best country in the world, the USA would probably "win" that as well. Doesn't really prove much either way.

Mobyseven

21st May 2007, 07:51 AM

Mobyseven: C- Must do better.

...ouch.

Not even any constructive criticism? What are you, the English teacher from hell?

The Doc

21st May 2007, 07:56 AM

...ouch.

Not even any constructive criticism? What are you, the English teacher from hell?

Is there any other form of English teacher?

;)

Mobyseven

21st May 2007, 08:06 AM

Is there any other form of English teacher?

;)

I once had an English teacher who set "The Simpsons" as a comprehension exercise.

He was pretty cool.

aggle-rithm

21st May 2007, 08:08 AM

As Cheney exits the room, Bush puts on The Flight of the Valkeries and practises his maniacal, evil villian laugh, before settling down to a brunch of human liver and small kittens...

...with fava beans and a nice Chianti.

The Doc

21st May 2007, 08:08 AM

I once had an English teacher who set "The Simpsons" as a comprehension exercise.

He was pretty cool.

Touché, Moby. Touché.

Mobyseven

21st May 2007, 09:15 AM

...with fava beans and a nice Chianti.

Implicit in the text, of course.

Mobyseven

21st May 2007, 09:21 AM

Touché, Moby. Touché.

I had another one once who started the class with what was meant to be a short demonstration on how to storyboard. He asked for a topic, and the class smartarse yelled out, "Your life story!"

70 minutes later we had a storyboard on the whiteboard depicting from his earliest memory to his second year as a teacher. Was a pretty cool lesson.

Same teacher was notoriosly absent minded too. I was called away suddenly to South Africa on family business for a few weeks in the middle of term. I told him of this in advance, but about a week and a half into my absent he looked at the roll and asked, "Where is Richard? He's been absent for some time."

When informed I was in South Africa, he reportedly said, "Oh. Well I hope he doesn't get murdered," and continued on teaching the class.

Unsecured Coins

21st May 2007, 09:44 AM

I had another one once who started the class with what was meant to be a short demonstration on how to storyboard. He asked for a topic, and the class smartarse yelled out, "Your life story!"

70 minutes later we had a storyboard on the whiteboard depicting from his earliest memory to his second year as a teacher. Was a pretty cool lesson.

Same teacher was notoriosly absent minded too. I was called away suddenly to South Africa on family business for a few weeks in the middle of term. I told him of this in advance, but about a week and a half into my absent he looked at the roll and asked, "Where is Richard? He's been absent for some time."

When informed I was in South Africa, he reportedly said, "Oh. Well I hope he doesn't get murdered," and continued on teaching the class.

I had a teacher my 2nd senior year of high school (way to go, state of florida for losing my north carolina transcripts) who among other things used to sing in class about being a perky turkey and drew silly cartoons before the start of class. He was also dorking one of my classmates but I give him credit for waiting until AFTER she graduated before he started laying the pipe to it, anyway... I digress. I was alread in the Army Reserves at this time and since I was held back due to the screw up with my out of state transcripts I had completed both basic training and AIT. Ergo, I was a fully trained soldier, and then this thing with Haiti flared up. My unit was getting conflicting reports on if we were going or not, and I felt it was my duty to inform my school that i could be deployed in mid-pop quiz. His reply - "send a card once a week. That's 90% of your grade if you go"

My unit didn't go, so I had to actually study that semester.

jujigatami

21st May 2007, 09:51 AM

Slight derail, on the subject of European views of the US.

When I was in college we had one student from The Netherlands who openly despised the US. She always called it the "Land of the un-Free." She was the very first Conspiracy Theorist I actually met. This was before 9/11 so her pet conspiracy theory was that Apollo was hoaxed. Her Reason? "Americans are too stupid to do anything right." I always wondered why, if Americans are so stupid, she was going to college in the US? I never got to ask her that.

We had a gal from Australia too. She was really neat, and I think every guy on campus asked her out at least twice (including me, I'm a sucker for the Aussie accent).

My company has an office in the Netherlands, when I was there, I met a few people that are very anti-American, and surprisingly many that were rabidly PRO-America. One of the women in the office owns a 1942 GMC army truck (a true remnant of WW2). She inherited it from her dad when he passed. She keeps it in a warehouse owned by a guy that has Tons of WW2 vehicles meticulously restored. It was a heck of an experience to go to that place. Her dad LOVED America.

Anyway, she introduced me to some of her dads friends and they ALL LOVED America. Every year in their town they have a liberation day parade where the entire town waves American flags. They try to bring American soldiers that were there in WW2 to be the grand marshals. Its really something.

Architect

21st May 2007, 09:51 AM

In the Scottish Higher English exam the year I did it, part of the reading comprehension was a particularly humorous piece by tv critic Clive James on (if I recall correctly) the Incredible Hulk. So who says examiners don't have a sense of humour!?!

Architect

21st May 2007, 09:53 AM

Anyway, she introduced me to some of her dads friends and they ALL LOVED America. Every year in their town they have a liberation day parade where the entire town waves American flags. They try to bring American soldiers that were there in WW2 to be the grand marshals. Its really something.

In my experience older citizens of the Low Countries are very good to British, Canadian, and Americans of a certain generation (depending on who liberated where) but this is not necessarily reflected in the younger parts of community. Which is what you would expect, really.

jujigatami

21st May 2007, 10:37 AM

In my experience older citizens of the Low Countries are very good to British, Canadian, and Americans of a certain generation (depending on who liberated where) but this is not necessarily reflected in the younger parts of community. Which is what you would expect, really.

Yeah, it is to be expected, but it seemed to me that they taught their kids to respect America too. As Heidi, the woman in in my office , was very Pro America too, as were her friends.

Somewhere it got lost though.

Par

21st May 2007, 10:47 AM

...ouch.

Not even any constructive criticism? What are you, the English teacher from hell?

Apologies for my unkind forthrightness. I had just rolled out of bed and the sun had disappeared behind a cloud.

Incidentally, my English teacher was legendary. Something that makes my remark even less excusable, I suppose!

Travis

21st May 2007, 11:55 PM

July 5th, 2001

CHENEY: Sir, this just in - apparently Australian girls are attractive. One agent even described them as being "Smoking Hot".

BUSH: Hmm...we must have this precious natural resource all to ourselves. But how...?

CHENEY: We could organise a false-flag terrorist operation, striking at the economic and military heart of our own country. A few years down the track, we'll use contrived evidence to invade a country completely unrelated to the 'terrorist' attacks, and form a 'coalition of the willing' to follow us in. The Australians will join, because ever since we brainwashed their Prime Minister he's had an unnatural fixation on you. The war will significantly weaken the Australian military, and will cause unrest in a population that for the most part does not support it. Then, while Australia is weakened, we withdraw from the war we got them into and invade their country, sending all the sexually active males to a military prison in another country...perhaps Cuba? With all the males out of the way...

BUSH: ...the chicks will be ours! Brilliant plan, Cheney! Call Satan will you, cancel my two o'clock lunch.

As Cheney exits the room, Bush puts on The Flight of the Valkeries and practises his maniacal, evil villian laugh, before settling down to a brunch of human liver and small kittens...

If I hadn't seen the picture you're referencing that ending wouldn't have been nearly as hilarious as it was.

gumboot

22nd May 2007, 12:09 AM

I'm not surprised that they voted the USA as worst nation in the world. They also think the USA is a police state.

Personally I don't think the USA is the best country (New Zealand is, duh) but anyone who thinks it's the worst, or even amongst the bad ones, seriously needs to learn a bit about the world around them.

It's an insult to those who actually do have to suffer living in horrible countries, just as calling the USA a police state is an insult to those who survived Nazi Germany or the Soviets.

Frankly, the differences between various western nations is somewhat a matter of taste, and you could argue which is "better" for ever. But I hope we can all agree that USA, Portugal, New Zealand and Italy are all better than say, Swaziland, whose death rate is almost FOUR TIMES the world average, or perhaps Angola where the infant mortality rate is nearly 1/5.

Or how about any number of Middle Eastern countries where you get killed BY YOUR OWN FAMILY for allowing yourself to get raped.

-Gumboot

gumboot

22nd May 2007, 12:14 AM

Yeah, it is to be expected, but it seemed to me that they taught their kids to respect America too. As Heidi, the woman in in my office , was very Pro America too, as were her friends.

Somewhere it got lost though.

Maybe you get that youth rebellion thing...

In the same way, the older generation, having been faced with the threat of Nazi Germany, are often a bit more supportive of pre-emptive military action overseas, where as people of my generation, who have only ever experienced war on CNN, are quite universally anti-war, regardless of circumstances.

-Gumboot

Travis

22nd May 2007, 12:18 AM

I once went on a business trip to Germany. My hosts couldn't possibly have been nicer to me personally, taking my coworkers and me out to fancy dinner and showing us the sights. However, they made no bones about the fact that they considered the standard of living in America to be very low. "Just look at South Bronx" one of them said matter-of-factly, as though South Bronx typified the entire US. They did this with no apparent animosity or self-consciousness whatsoever, as though we were discussing a self-evident fact, like the sky being blue.

I don't know whether this constitutes anti-Americanism per se, but I think it does demonstrate that at least some Europeans are willing to make sweeping generalizations about the US, which may or may not be entirely accurate. (At least we got off better than the Swiss, whom my German hosts dismissed as "a bunch of racists.")

I think that kind of attitude isn't the problem in and of itself. The problem is that once you accept ideas like a low standard of living the USA as being self-evident you're open to accept a lot of other things about the US that may not be true. If they get enough of these ideas and pretty soon their image of America could be diametrically opposite of the reality. Then real problems might arise.

I once talked to a German tourist while I was myself a tourist in Jackson, Wyoming. He said he was surprised most Americans made enough money to own cars. Prior to his trip he had gotten the idea (in college according to him) that the USA was a vast wasteland with 99% of the people impoverished and scraping for food with 1% living spectacularly on vast estates. At least he made the trip and realized that notion was wrong. However I wonder how many hold notions like that but will not make the trip and thus hang onto those ideas and even propagate them.

gumboot

22nd May 2007, 12:24 AM

For what it's worth, the living standards of the average American are about the same as the living standards of a Roman Emperor.

-Gumboot

Travis

22nd May 2007, 12:25 AM

My company has an office in the Netherlands, when I was there, I met a few people that are very anti-American, and surprisingly many that were rabidly PRO-America. One of the women in the office owns a 1942 GMC army truck (a true remnant of WW2). She inherited it from her dad when he passed. She keeps it in a warehouse owned by a guy that has Tons of WW2 vehicles meticulously restored. It was a heck of an experience to go to that place. Her dad LOVED America.

Anyway, she introduced me to some of her dads friends and they ALL LOVED America. Every year in their town they have a liberation day parade where the entire town waves American flags. They try to bring American soldiers that were there in WW2 to be the grand marshals. Its really something.

I seem to remember her mentioning something about Liberation Day. She hated it and had to leave town with her friends while the old people celebrated a nation she despised.

I often wondered if she wasn't some sort of iconoclast who simply hated what those around her liked.

Travis

22nd May 2007, 12:30 AM

For what it's worth, the living standards of the average American are about the same as the living standards of a Roman Emperor.

-Gumboot

Then there are those who hate America because of those high living standards.

Some think America is too religious while the Middle East says America is Godless!

If you really want to hate someplace you'll find a reason to.

gumboot

22nd May 2007, 12:33 AM

Then there are those who hate America because of those high living standards.

Some think America is too religious while the Middle East says America is Godless!

If you really want to hate someplace you'll find a reason to.

Exactly,

People hate America, because it's the superpower, and no one likes superpowers. People will cite all sorts of seemingly justified reasons for their hatred, but they're in the end just excuses.

I will never forget the video in which the head of Hizbollah blames the USA for the trouble Muslim women have finding someone to marry.

-Gumboot

Mobyseven

22nd May 2007, 12:43 AM

If I hadn't seen the picture you're referencing that ending wouldn't have been nearly as hilarious as it was.

Yeah. It inspired me. :p

For what it's worth, the living standards of the average American are about the same as the living standards of a Roman Emperor.

-Gumboot

I'm curious - based on what? How was the comparison made? Hygiene/running water/etc?

gumboot

22nd May 2007, 12:51 AM

I'm curious - based on what? How was the comparison made? Hygiene/running water/etc?

I believe it was basically a study of the services etc. available to the average American household, and an assessment of what you'd need in Roman times to achieve the same or comparable.

For example, having an electric stove and microwave is the equivalent of having a kitchen staff ready 24/7 to cook u a meal, with, at minimum, a fire constantly burning, ready to be stoked.

Likewise having light immediately available, and readily available hot water would require teams of slaves. Having a car would require stables, horses, etc...

Having a CD player and CDs is like having your own personal entertainers...

Also, hygiene, general health, access to medicine, quality and accessibility of food...

Basically once you added it all up, only an Imperial household had the resources and number of slaves you would need to provide this level of lifestyle.

On the one had it's kind of obvious, but on the other hand, once you start thinking about it, you begin to appreciate just how good we have it (and the Roman Empire provided the best lifestyle in the western world for at least a couple of thousand years...)

-Gumboot

Minadin

22nd May 2007, 01:15 AM

Every place has its own plusses and minuses. I've lived in several countries, on 3 continents, and the USA is my favorite . . . but I was born here, so I am probably biased. There are certainly a wide variety of things that I liked better in other countries, but in retrospect, some of those things might not have been as attractive if I had know that I was going to be staying there permanently.

Variety is the spice of life, as they say. I think that the US does one of the better jobs of trying to take the good elements out of each culture, but we've still got a lot to learn, certainly. Also, it's necessary to maintain some of those local oddities if you are even going to have that diversity - that is what makes it fun and interesting to visit other places.

slingblade

22nd May 2007, 01:23 AM

If it makes anyone feel any better, we were pretty pissed off at our country and government, oh....40 years ago or so?

Still standing, I see. ;)

rightshu

22nd May 2007, 05:10 AM

They also think the USA is a police state.

That's my favorite statement from student radicals. :)

Here's my one-afternoon litmus test for determining whether or not you live in a police state: Find a nice, well-trafficked intersection. Find a place to stand where you are conspicuous without blocking traffic. Now stand in that place holding a sign that says, "This nation is a police state run by fascists!" If you don't get tossed into prison (for peacefully announcing your belief; all bets are off if you block traffic or slug a cop), you're not living in a police state.

I'm sure that some wonderfully pedantic soul will link to descriptions of a police state and explain why I'm completely wrong, but that's my standard, anyway.