Loss of libido - any advice, please? [Archive]

EvilBiker

21st May 2007, 06:00 AM

Please excuse the long post - I really need some help here....

My wife has now finally come out and said that she does not enjoy sex - in fact, she goes as far as to say that it repulses her. Even French kissing is a turnoff.

This started around about the time we got married. Before then, we had a very active sex life, for roughly 3 years. I suppose I cannot take this into account, really, due to it being the honeymoon period of the relationship. I do find the complete turnaround disconcerting.

We attended sex therapy sessions together for roughly 8 months, from around October 2005. Therapist concluded that I had a normal, active sex drive, that the wife was not contributing to the relationship at all sexually, recommended that I walk away from the relationship. This was quite a mindf**k, I thought sex therapists were supposed to HELP.

At that stage, the wife was on the pill (not sure which type). Her mood swings were extreme, and she used to verbally attack me nearly every day. A friend suggested she change the type of pill she was on, as it had (in the friend's case) made a huge difference to her moods. Also taken into account was the fact that the wife used to get severe cramps during her period, to such an extent that she used to have morphine shots to alleviate the pain.

So, after some investigation, she decided to have an IUD fitted, namely a Mirena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IntraUterine_System). At the same time she went onto Cipralex, an Escitalopram SSRI. Results looked promising from the drug, she mellowed out somewhat, and the verbal attacks stopped. (I won't go into the Mirena saga, it's just a side issue, I believe). Cipralex was chosen by her GP as the SSRI of choice as it was believed at that stage to have the least effect on libido...

During the declining period, we tried MDMA, more out of curiosity than anything else (we have a lot of rave culture friends). It actually worked out nicely - we had great sex, although the after effects of the drug meant that the next day was a bit of a waste - we spent most of the time sleeping the effects off.

Thing carried on going from bad to worse. With the SSRI now in full effect, the wife could not take MDMA anymore, as the effects were totally squashed by the Cipralex. Normal sex was a non-event. We had sex maybe 4 times in 2006, only once normally, and there was no involvement from the wife's side, in effect. I felt like I was, to put it bluntly, forcing myself on her.

This year the situation is worse. We last had sex in February. I eventually cracked and gave over an ultimatum - either investigate and find a solution, or prepare for divorce.

I had been looking into the effects of Cipralex to try figure out if there was any contribution from the SSRI to the percieved increasing decline of libido. I did find that the initial studies on the effect of Cipralex on the libido were highly underrated. During the course of my investigations, I looked at other SSRIs and alternatives like Wellbutrin, etc. etc. I did not believe that Cipralex was the inital cause of the wife's loss of interest, as this had started occurring before she went onto the SSRI, but I did feel that maybe the drug was further suppressing whatever libido she had left.

Armed with a myriad of facts on SSRIs, various agonists, MAOIs, etc. I visited her GP and had a free and frank discussion on possible ways forward. Heh, he was actually quite taken aback by the fact that a mere engineer knew more about the subject than he did! Anyway, he agreed with me on the effects of Cipralex, and after some discussion with colleagues, decided to try the Wellbutrin approach. I must add here that he was not at all aware that we were having any sexual problems - the wife never mentioned it to him.

Now, Wellbutrin has some small effect on dopamine production (increases it slightly), and does not affect libido. We thought this would help to some extent. So far, two months down the line, there has been no change. Of course, along with the change in medication, it was recommended that the wife consult a psychiatrist, to see if there were perhaps some underlying reason for the lack of interest.

In the interim, we heard about a product called Scentuelle, which apparently enhanced libido to some extent. I did some investigation, but could not find any proper studies done on it. However, desperate as I was, I bought a month's supply, even though I suspected the placebo effect had a lot to do with the product. It does not seem to be doing anything for the wife.

I must state here that the wife has been trying as hard as I am to find a solution. We both love each other, she wants to spend the rest of her life with me, but she realises that I am not happy with the current situation.
This weekend she broached the subject with me again, I suspect after being egged on by here psychiatrist to report back to me. According to the psych, there is no apparent cause for her lack of libido. So, in effect, I cannot realistically hold out any hope of a change to the situation any time soon, and perhaps never.

Also, according to the psych, the majority of women suffer from lack of libido, and in most cases they are prepared to compromise to some extent to make the marriage work (ie. engage in sex with their spouses even though they don't particularly feel like it). My wife is not prepared to compromise. In her words, she cannot face "being raped" by me, that is how strong her feelings are against sex right now.

So, the alternatives:

1. I must compromise and never again have normal sex with her. She is open to maybe taking Ecstacy once a month, as she enjoys sex on the drug, as long as she is convinced there are no long term effects from the use thereof. I don't like this idea, to be honest. Firstly, the drug is illegal, which means the only supply is erratic in terms of quality, and secondly, I believe it is basically papering over the problem.

2. Get divorced.

So far, it looks like I get divorced. I must say, even though I do not like the Ecstasy idea, I'm leaning towards it, because I do not want to lose this woman. We fit together in all other areas of our lives and we both love each other. I am at a total loss as to what to do further to prevent us seperating - it's tearing me apart.

I would welcome any advice on the matter. Am I flogging a dead horse? Is there an avenue I have neglected to cover?

Depressingly,
EB.

Taffer

21st May 2007, 06:22 AM

Dancing David

21st May 2007, 06:36 AM

Tough situation.

There are effects of SSRIs on all sorts of systems, including the libidinal. I am not a sex therapist, nor do I have any experience in sexual counseling.

There are a couple things I can think of:

1. Hormone levels, they effect libidinal energy in both men and women.

2. Other SSRIs or antidepressants, they may have less of an effect, if that is the cause. I don't know about wellbuproprion.

3. She may have depression at this time and the ahedonia associated with it.

4. Maybe talk to another psyciatrist, I have had some wierd experiences with them where someone is having an obvious side effect but the doc insists that it just can not be.

5. Did the sex therapist engage in romance therapy? In that for women there are different triggers for arousal than most men. I imagine that there may be some cognitive behavioralk issues involved.

I am very sorry to hear about this. It sounds strangely reminiscent of my first marriage with a lot of other issues as well.

I have a lot of emotional flattening from antidepressants but given the nature of my anxiety and obsessions that is a good thing. But the falttening of the painful emotions does aloow the more pleasant ones to come through. I prefer to be on treatment but for me there is just this feeling of dullness at first (lasted about two years) as I adjusted to having less reactive emotions and less intrusive thoughts of an emotional nature.

I don't know if the depression or the antidepressant if flattening your partners libido. I do suggest talking with as many knowledgeable people as possible. And beware taking any authority too seriously unless you know the basis for thier thoughts, especialy a psychiatrist.

Puppycow

21st May 2007, 06:45 AM

http://www.nbc11.com/2007/0509/13286264_240X180.jpg

Since you didn't mention kids I assume there are none. I think you need to get a divorce. I absolutely would in that situation. The sooner the better. There are plenty of other people out there for each of you. I mean "being raped"? Come on. You can't have a worthwhile marraige if that's how she feels.

I also recommend not looking to find a solution in some drug. Getting her on just the right combination of meds doesn't sound like a good plan to me. Start looking at dating sites on the Net if you need some encouragement. And don't feel sorry for her. Life's too short. Get a divorce.

NeilC

21st May 2007, 06:53 AM

Clearly taking ecstasy is not a viable long term proposition. It's illegal for starters.

SSRIs are famous for causing loss of libido. But seeing as a therapist has pointed out character/relationship/behaviour problems it doesn't see that you can blame that alone or maybe even at all.

It sounds like she needs more therapy or you two need relationship counciling. Sounds like something is wrong there. I've gone though periods of not wanting sex (funnily enough the french kissing was the first thing to go and the most "painful" for me that time) and I've gone through periods of my wife not being too keen. We've always got over them. I discovered that I need to be feeling confident in other areas of my life to be happy in bed - e.g. if I'm down about work I'm not up for it in the sack. So depression is one area to investigate. Other things we've noticed is lack of affection and 1-to-1 focus leg to problems. I.e. when the snuggling and kissing and talking frankly etc drop so does the sex. And to a certain extent lack of respect came into things. After a few years it can easy to take people for granted and not spend much time thinking about how you can make them happy on a minute by minute basis - you'd rather let her do the washing up cos your tired instead of doing more than your fair share because it makes them happy - you get the idea. For us this sort of slightly selfish (well not selfless anyway) attitude creates a mini battle/competition instead of harmony. All these things always led to less sex and worse sex. Obviously I've no idea if this applies to you but if she's being treated for depression I'm guessing some of it might - depressed people are not always fun to be with as a rule.

I wonder if the heavy periods and pill problems indicate hormonal problems?

I don't like the sound of this shrink. WTF is with "women suffer from lack of libido, and in most cases they are prepared to compromise to some extent to make the marriage work". I'm not sure that is even true, plenty of women moan about not getting enough sex for starters. And even if it is, there is huge difference between compromising a bit when you're not 100% hot to trot and feeling like you are being raped when your loving husband makes advances to you.

Re: divorce....if you don't have kids and you ain't happy it's got to be worth considering.

EvilBiker

21st May 2007, 07:39 AM

Thank for the reponses!

1. Hormone levels, they effect libidinal energy in both men and women.

2. Other SSRIs or antidepressants, they may have less of an effect, if that is the cause. I don't know about wellbuproprion.

3. She may have depression at this time and the ahedonia associated with it.

4. Maybe talk to another psyciatrist, I have had some wierd experiences with them where someone is having an obvious side effect but the doc insists that it just can not be.

5. Did the sex therapist engage in romance therapy? In that for women there are different triggers for arousal than most men. I imagine that there may be some cognitive behavioralk issues involved.

1. She has had hormone level tests, specifically for testosterone. All normal.

2. Yup, the effects vary from one to the other but on the whole any SSRI decreases libido, it seems. Wellbuproprion does not, and in fact, is used to treat the loss of libido in some cases. From Wikipedia:

Several studies have indicated that bupropion also relieves sexual dysfunction among non-depressed patients. After a 12-weeks course in a mixed male/female double-blind study, 63% of subjects on bupropion rated their condition as improved or much improved vs. only 3% of subjects on placebo.[24]

Two studies, one of which was placebo-controlled, demonstrated efficacy of bupropion for women with hypoactive sexual desire[25][26] resulting in significant improvement of arousal, orgasm and overall satisfaction.

Bupropion also showed promise as a treatment for sexual dysfunction caused by chemotherapy for breast cancer[27] and for orgasmic dysfunction.[28]

As with the treatment of SSRI-induced sexual disorder, a higher dose of bupropion (300 mg) may be necessary, since a randomized study, which employed a lower dose (150 mg), failed to find any significant difference between bupropion, sexual therapy or combined treatment.[29] Interestingly, bupropion does not affect any measures of sexual functioning in healthy males.[30]

3. This is true. We are hoping that the Wellbutrin will treat this without the loss of libido..

4. I'm considering another psych, but the wife is pushing back, as with every new one she has to go through the whole introduction cycle again, which is pretty traumatic.

5. Yes, we did engage in romantic therapy - we know the buttons to push. The problem is that at this stage there are such levels of guilt and apprehension involved, it can get pretty hard to follow through with. My aim at this stage is to promote the seperation of affection from sex - the wife is at the moment scared stiff of offering any affection because she believes it will lead to intercourse in all cases.

I am trying to cover all bases here before taking the divorce decision. I've been searching again today, and have found out about a new drug currently undergoing trials, which could be of some use - Bremelanotide. It looks promising, though I'm not sure when it will be out on the market.

EvilBiker

21st May 2007, 07:49 AM

It sounds like she needs more therapy or you two need relationship counciling. Sounds like something is wrong there. I've gone though periods of not wanting sex (funnily enough the french kissing was the first thing to go and the most "painful" for me that time) and I've gone through periods of my wife not being too keen. We've always got over them. I discovered that I need to be feeling confident in other areas of my life to be happy in bed - e.g. if I'm down about work I'm not up for it in the sack. So depression is one area to investigate. Other things we've noticed is lack of affection and 1-to-1 focus leg to problems. I.e. when the snuggling and kissing and talking frankly etc drop so does the sex. And to a certain extent lack of respect came into things. After a few years it can easy to take people for granted and not spend much time thinking about how you can make them happy on a minute by minute basis - you'd rather let her do the washing up cos your tired instead of doing more than your fair share because it makes them happy - you get the idea. For us this sort of slightly selfish (well not selfless anyway) attitude creates a mini battle/competition instead of harmony. All these things always led to less sex and worse sex. Obviously I've no idea if this applies to you but if she's being treated for depression I'm guessing some of it might - depressed people are not always fun to be with as a rule.
One of the problems which has manifested itself due to the lack of intimacy is that I have been overeacting the other way, effectively smothering her with attention, which I think has actually pushed her away more. This came out of our initial therapy session. Trust me, taking her for granted has definitely never been on the cards in my case. I appreciate your insight, though :)
I wonder if the heavy periods and pill problems indicate hormonal problems?
Apparently not, according to the tests, which showed normal hormonal levels. Frankly, I was surprised that the doc had not done hormone tests before putting her on an SSRI. I insisted on hormone tests before recommending any medication changes.
Regarding the cramps, subsequent to the IUD insertion, she had a laparoscopy done and some traces of endimetriosis were found and dealt with. The periods have lessened now too.

I don't like the sound of this shrink. WTF is with "women suffer from lack of libido, and in most cases they are prepared to compromise to some extent to make the marriage work". I'm not sure that is even true, plenty of women moan about not getting enough sex for starters. And even if it is, there is huge difference between compromising a bit when you're not 100% hot to trot and feeling like you are being raped when your loving husband makes advances to you.
I'm also a bit wary of this shrink, frankly, especially when she first mentioned regression therapy. However, she comes very highly recommended...
Re: divorce....if you don't have kids and you ain't happy it's got to be worth considering.
Yes, it is an option, but really, it is a last resort. Maybe I'm being stupid, but what is keeping me trying is the fact that besides the physical, we have an outstanding relationship.

EvilBiker

21st May 2007, 07:53 AM

Since you didn't mention kids I assume there are none. I think you need to get a divorce. I absolutely would in that situation. The sooner the better. There are plenty of other people out there for each of you. I mean "being raped"? Come on. You can't have a worthwhile marraige if that's how she feels.

I also recommend not looking to find a solution in some drug. Getting her on just the right combination of meds doesn't sound like a good plan to me. Start looking at dating sites on the Net if you need some encouragement. And don't feel sorry for her. Life's too short. Get a divorce.

At this stage, even though it is quite a way down the line, I still feel like divorce is essentially giving up. Don't get me wrong, I've been divorced before, and know the ins and outs. It's just that in this case, the attraction in all other areas is still there...

tkingdoll

21st May 2007, 07:57 AM

I am sorry to hear about your problems. But...for all the medical solutions you are seeking, could it not just simply be that she's not attracted to you any longer?

I was in a celibate relationship for a few years, we wanted to stay together because we had everything in common, and although we started off with a normal sex life, after a while I just stopped finding him physically attractive. And, sorry to say, but it's very unpleasant to have sex with someone to whom you are not attracted. Anyway, we tried to pretend it was OK to not have sex but actually it wasn't, and we split when I met someone I was very attracted to, who is now my husband.

There is a difference between not being attracted to anyone, and not being attracted to you specifically. Could it be that she has a libido, but not for you?

I hope you can work things out though, you sound like a very caring guy.

Have you discussed experimenting with an open relationship? You get to keep the love but your sexual needs are fulfilled elsewhere? I've never tried it and not sure how it works long-term but if you want the love and companionship from each other and can separate the sex, it might be something to consider. There is at least one person on this forum in a successful open relationship, I believe.

NeilC

21st May 2007, 08:02 AM

One of the problems which has manifested itself due to the lack of intimacy is that I have been overeacting the other way, effectively smothering her with attention, which I think has actually pushed her away more. This came out of our initial therapy session. Trust me, taking her for granted has definitely never been on the cards in my case. I appreciate your insight, though :)

I didn't mean to imply it was from your direction but more a whole-relationship thing. In my case it was ME not making the effort but still ME losing interest. I found I had to make more effort in other areas to regain my ador. Not entirely sure why.

Maybe it is just some chemical thing curable by pills but that you had a therapist say she's not giving enough and to leave her implies that the relationship is not working perfectly in all areas other than sex. Unless of course she has some deep psychological problem connected to sex that are only just coming out now - you know like child abuse or something?

CynicalSkeptic

21st May 2007, 08:05 AM

I'm in a similar situation, though not quite as bad. Sex went from nearly daily, to about 1/month seemingly overnight. There is/was also verbal (and sometimes physical) abuse. She has said that sex maybe twice a month would be ok with her, of course I'm thinking more like 3-4 times per week.

Like you, I gave her an ultimatum of either seek help, or divorce, which she did (this was more for the abuse then the lack of sex), and now we're actually in couples counseling as well as individual counseling. We had been to marriage counseling previously, but moved away from our first one, and had a lousy second one. Now we've found a very good psychologist, and we're dealing with real issues that go back to childhood.

Also, like your situation even when she does agree to sex, she often doesn't enjoy it, but merely tolerates it to try to appease me, but that is a thoroughly unsatisfying experience, and has actually led to more fights. Also like you, she enjoys it more when using drugs (weed in our case, haven't tried ecstasy, wouldn't even know where to get it (she's hinted at that as she used to be into the rave scene)).

One of the issues that she actually acknowledges is her weight. She gained a lot during her pregnancy, and has not lost it in the two+ years since. She doesn't feel good about her body so sex is uncomfortable for her psychologically and physically.

Another issue that has only surfaced in counseling has to do with our daughter. She has a medical condition, and it impacts my wife much more emotionally than it does me. Because I rationalize everything, my wife doesn't think I care or feel as deeply as she does about our daughter's situation, so she doesn't feel as connected to me, so that's another sexual turn-off for her.

Finally, she's also on an SSRI, but I think right now the other issues play more of a role than the drugs.

I have also seriously considered divorce, but since we have a child, that's really a last resort option for me. However, if things continue the way they are I'll seriously have to consider it again.

I would recommend couples counseling again and finding a different doctor for her. My wife had also gotten a GP to prescribe her SSRIs in the past, but she wasn't being monitored or doing any talk therapy, so it was pretty ineffective. We're finally making progress with our current situation, but it's a long bumpy road. Changing your doctor/therapist is one option that may be better than divorce.

NeilC

21st May 2007, 08:06 AM

could it not just simply be that she's not attracted to you any longer?

This is obviously a valid question but out of interest, what does that mean for all of us as we age? There are not many attractive 60 year old women who've had say 2 kids. Not really. I imagine perceived attractiveness between married couples involves some self delusion.

CynicalSkeptic

21st May 2007, 08:11 AM

the wife is at the moment scared stiff of offering any affection because she believes it will lead to intercourse in all cases.

I know exactly what you're talking about. She will literally freeze up, or push me away when I try to hug/kiss her, and this is leads to feelings of rejection for me (can you say downward spiral). BTW, we've been seeing our currently psychologist for about 6-7 months, and he sent her to a psychiatrist for meds almost immediately, he just recently did the same for me, so I'm also now taking an SSRI.

One of the problems which has manifested itself due to the lack of intimacy is that I have been overeacting the other way, effectively smothering her with attention, which I think has actually pushed her away more.
Same here. Well, I don't think I'm being overly affectionate, but she claims I'm smothering her (her exact words) when I'm just trying to be a loving caring husband. But since she thinks that it means I'm wanting sex, she won't accept my affection.

tkingdoll

21st May 2007, 08:17 AM

This is obviously a valid question but out of interest, what does that mean for all of us as we age? There are not many attractive 60 year old women who've had say 2 kids. Not really. I imagine perceived attractiveness between married couples involves some self delusion.

There's no single answer to this. A 60-year-old guy and woman might be desperately, clothes-rippingly attracted to each other.

Often we're sexually attracted to someone just because they're new.

What's that old psychology? Romantic love lasts 3 years? Which I assume is a euphemism for sexual attraction.

Interestingly, my husband is the only man I've ever been attracted to for more than 2 years. No idea if we got married because we're hot for each other, or if some subconcious mechanism causes us to remain attracted to each other because we know we're married.

I don't know if I'm being wildly unfair here, but it seems to me far more likely that a woman is simply no longer attracted to a man than there being some underlying medical or psychological issue. But for the man, it's the hardest to accept, for good reason.

Puppycow

21st May 2007, 08:21 AM

At this stage, even though it is quite a way down the line, I still feel like divorce is essentially giving up. Don't get me wrong, I've been divorced before, and know the ins and outs. It's just that in this case, the attraction in all other areas is still there...

Well I guess it depends on how important sex is for you. How about taking a vacation from each other? I'm not sure exactly why you need to be married if you don't have and aren't planning to have kids. In fact you said that getting married was about the point when the relationship began to head south. "Giving up" doesn't seem like a big problem if there are no kids. You are both adults, and you just need to meet someone else and try again. Time will heal the heart, but first you have to make a clean break.

Crazycowbob

21st May 2007, 08:43 AM

...One of the issues that she actually acknowledges is her weight. She gained a lot during her pregnancy, and has not lost it in the two+ years since. She doesn't feel good about her body so sex is uncomfortable for her psychologically and physically...

I'd be carefull of this personally, because in my experience with my ex-wife this was an excuse. She lost the weight, got lots of confidence in her body, but still no change to the lack of a sex life.

I know exactly what you're talking about. She will literally freeze up, or push me away when I try to hug/kiss her, and this is leads to feelings of rejection for me (can you say downward spiral)...

EvilBiker:

I can vouch for this as well, though it may not be because she associates it with sex, and more just that she is not attracted. It's tough to try and make the decision on divorce though, I know. Sex isn't everything, and if that's the only thing wrong, there may be a way to make things work still. But with me and my wife, the lack of sex was really more of an indicator of a lot of other problems that we had tried to ignore.

I can't really advise you on what direction you should go with this, other than to say look at everything and try to find the cause. One thing to consider, does she still mastrubate? If not, then there possibly is something up physically or psychologically, and not just disinterest in you. If she does, then there's a more than fair chance she just doesn't get excited by you specifically.

Dancing David

21st May 2007, 09:10 AM

Thank for the reponses!

1. She has had hormone level tests, specifically for testosterone. All normal.

2. Yup, the effects vary from one to the other but on the whole any SSRI decreases libido, it seems. Wellbuproprion does not, and in fact, is used to treat the loss of libido in some cases. From Wikipedia:

Sure, SSRIs effect people differently as well, and different SSRIs have different effects. I take sertraline (Zolfot) at times it will increase my arousal, at others it inhibits the erection. But in general my libido follows my mood.

3. This is true. We are hoping that the Wellbutrin will treat this without the loss of libido..

4. I'm considering another psych, but the wife is pushing back, as with every new one she has to go through the whole introduction cycle again, which is pretty traumatic.

Yes it is, the main thing is that she find a psych that she trustss, preferably who works with a therapist she trusts.

5. Yes, we did engage in romantic therapy - we know the buttons to push. The problem is that at this stage there are such levels of guilt and apprehension involved, it can get pretty hard to follow through with. My aim at this stage is to promote the seperation of affection from sex - the wife is at the moment scared stiff of offering any affection because she believes it will lead to intercourse in all cases.

Yes intimacy should not always lead to sex, I note the use of language which would imply anxiety and cognitive conflicts. Which makes me wonder if she is having symptoms and cognitions that are part of this process. Perhaps some cognitive behavioral approaches of desensitization and identification of triggers.

I am trying to cover all bases here before taking the divorce decision. I've been searching again today, and have found out about a new drug currently undergoing trials, which could be of some use - Bremelanotide. It looks promising, though I'm not sure when it will be out on the market.

Divorce is painful, if you both want to stay married, I would try some CBT and maybe some other medications, as well as an examination of lifestyle choices. But it is up to your wife which path she follows. I also wonder why the XTC is effective, I don't recomend it as a course of action. But it makes me to wonder.

Good luck. I tried very hard to not be divorced, my ex-wife was not willing to participate in staying together.

Dancing David

21st May 2007, 09:14 AM

I'm also a bit wary of this shrink, frankly, especially when she first mentioned regression therapy. However, she comes very highly recommended...

Back up slowly, do not make eye contact, when the beast can no longer see you then run like heck.

DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER!

Get away from that psychiatrist as fast and as long as possible, as soon as possible. WOO WOO WOO WOO.

Of course that is your wife's decision.

Regression therpay , bad. Psychodynamics bad. CBT good.

CynicalSkeptic

21st May 2007, 09:22 AM

I am sorry to hear about your problems. But...for all the medical solutions you are seeking, could it not just simply be that she's not attracted to you any longer?
...
There is a difference between not being attracted to anyone, and not being attracted to you specifically. Could it be that she has a libido, but not for you?

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but...
Well, that is something that has gone through my head as well. In fact, I wonder if she's only staying with me so I'll support her while she's in school and help with the kid, then she'll divorce me when she graduates and starts making real money. That's certainly not good for the ego, nor the feelings about the future of the relationship.

My wife has never had a relationship last over 2-3 years before our marriage, and that's about when ours started to really head south. So all these things hit at roughly the same time (birth of child / weight gain / 2 year milestone / moving to a new city & starting school).

casebro

21st May 2007, 09:44 AM

Isn't there a specific drug marketed as "Viagra for Women"?

Miss Anthrope

21st May 2007, 10:17 AM

Hi EB--

Well, first of all, a giant hug to you because this is a very difficult situation. I'm very sorry.

I read your post earlier and have been mulling it for a little bit. I think you've been making the efforts necessary to try and resolve this. While marriage is a relationship that transcends sex, sex is still important. And it seems like sex isn't the only major issue going on here. The comment about rape really struck me.

Issues of libido aside, sexual contact can be a loving, intimate way to connect. On a regular basis I provide sexual favors for my husband when I am not in the mood, simply because he is stressed, or just because I love him so damn much I want to do something that makes him very happy. If I can't find the drive to get in the mood, then my mood is one of love and sharing. A truly good marriage involves not just the relationship of lovers, but as PARTNERS, BEST FRIENDS, the two of you being one unit facing the world. Basic empathy is important. When my husband is hurting, it hurts my heart. When I have it in my power to make him happy or do something nice for him, it brings me joy. When I hurt him it crushes me, I feel absolutely awful. He behaves exactly the same toward me. This most definitely works all the way into the bedroom.

From the description of how the issues are flowing, that this is situation where you can't do anything right. Yes, through couples therapy you can find a nice middle ground. A good question is, are BOTH parties willing to get beyond their issues and meet on that middle ground? Is there enough humility on both sides to really see where the other partner is coming from? For the record, I see a lot of empathy from you, a sincere willingness to look for non-blaming causes for the problems. I know in a lot of relationships, some people are so caught up in their own hurt that they can't step out and realize that the other partner has needs and pain, too. If there is no willingness to do this, then little actual improvement can occur.

It seems to me you have the sex therapist and a psychiatrist telling you she's not going to improve in this department. The fact she uses the term rape, as well as the history of verbal abuse, tells me she is has some very deep, complex issues that may not just relate to brain chemistry, but a possible personality disorder that needs to be addressed. This requires a strong desire to work through it, and fearless explorations on her part. I'm not getting that she's ready for that from what you tell me, but I really couldn't know.

If I were in your shoes, the question I would be asking myself is if I am going to spend much more time waiting for her to work out her own issues. Does she truly empathize with my situation in this relationship, does she truly care about my hurt and frustration? Can she go into therapy and really work on herself in a truly productive way?

For some people I would suggest an open marriage, but I see this as absolutely disasterous for the situation.

I certainly, with all sincerity, wish you the best in this painful and complicated situation. I know there is much hard work and healing ahead of you, no matter what route you take. I apologize if anything in my reply mischaracterizes your situation.

Warmest thoughts-
MA

RenaissanceBiker

21st May 2007, 11:47 AM

IF you get divorced (I'm not advising you either way there), trade your sportbike in on a Harley Davidson TC-96. Your problem will solve itself.

MrMonty

21st May 2007, 12:38 PM

Quinn

21st May 2007, 12:50 PM

Hey EB,

I've been in a similar situation -- wife had zero interest in sex, or in any show of affection for fear it would lead to sex, constantly pushed me away, etc. Tried altering the meds, tried therapy, tried an open relationship. Although the divorce was possibly the most difficult and painful thing I've done, I can honestly say I'm much happier now. [ETA: And so is she.] That doesn't mean I'm telling you that's what you should do, as that's a call only you can make. But I am telling you that as horrible as it seems, it is possible to get through it and end up better off.

Ironically, my next serious relationship developed the exact opposite problem: it got to the point where the sex was the only good thing about it, and any time we weren't ***********, we wanted to kill each other. For future reference, that's no good either.

CynicalSkeptic

21st May 2007, 02:27 PM

IF you get divorced (I'm not advising you either way there), trade your sportbike in on a Harley Davidson TC-96. Your problem will solve itself.

??? 'Cuz it'll vibrate his nuts off and kill his Libido too?

Charles Livingston

21st May 2007, 02:34 PM

The Central Scrutinizer

21st May 2007, 02:39 PM

So, the alternatives:

1. I must compromise and never again have normal sex with her. She is open to maybe taking Ecstacy once a month, as she enjoys sex on the drug, as long as she is convinced there are no long term effects from the use thereof. I don't like this idea, to be honest. Firstly, the drug is illegal, which means the only supply is erratic in terms of quality, and secondly, I believe it is basically papering over the problem.

2. Get divorced.

3. Get a girlfriend for booty calls

Seriously.

tkingdoll

21st May 2007, 02:40 PM

If I had any idea how, I would nominate this. Very well said. While I understand why tkingdoll suggested it, I agree with Miss A that an open relationship could spell trouble for this situtation.

Yeah, I think Miss A's post was very well-thought out and reasonable. I was just throwing suggestions out there because I hate to see a marriage fail, but on reflection there could be underlying emotional issues which would render that a bad idea. I guess I was working on the assumption that Mrs EvilBiker was emotionally balanced - if that's not the case then even suggesting an open marriage could be a disaster. My understanding is that one requires a stable emotional foundation. If that's not present in this case then I would consider my suggestion the wrong one.

ETA: I also thought of nominating Miss A's post but I wasn't sure it was very tactful given the nature of the thread.

Charles Livingston

21st May 2007, 02:47 PM

Yeah, I think Miss A's post was very well-thought out and reasonable. I was just throwing suggestions out there because I hate to see a marriage fail, but on reflection there could be underlying emotional issues which would render that a bad idea. I guess I was working on the assumption that Mrs EvilBiker was emotionally balanced - if that's not the case then even suggesting an open marriage could be a disaster. My understanding is that one requires a stable emotional foundation. If that's not present in this case then I would consider my suggestion the wrong one.

ETA: I also thought of nominating Miss A's post but I wasn't sure it was very tactful given the nature of the thread.

Your suggestion was my initial thought too. Well, at least after I read your initial post.

ETA: Good point about the nature of the thread.

skeptifem

21st May 2007, 03:03 PM

EvilBiker

21st May 2007, 10:09 PM

Thanks for all the responses. Although this may sound like a really crappy thing to say, I'm glad that others have had the same problems I have. I think you get what I mean by that.

I'll try and respond to all of you - please forgive if I miss anybody out.

I am sorry to hear about your problems. But...for all the medical solutions you are seeking, could it not just simply be that she's not attracted to you any longer?
I can't really advise you on what direction you should go with this, other than to say look at everything and try to find the cause. One thing to consider, does she still mastrubate? If not, then there possibly is something up physically or psychologically, and not just disinterest in you. If she does, then there's a more than fair chance she just doesn't get excited by you specifically.
She is still attracted to me - this is actually something the sex therapist brought up. She could not believe that my wife was not getting nookie somewhere else. This is definitely not the case. It is just that the wife does not have any interest in sex right now. She does not masturbate either.

Have you discussed experimenting with an open relationship? You get to keep the love but your sexual needs are fulfilled elsewhere? I've never tried it and not sure how it works long-term but if you want the love and companionship from each other and can separate the sex, it might be something to consider. There is at least one person on this forum in a successful open relationship, I believe.
3. Get a girlfriend for booty calls
Seriously.
The open relationship idea was floated briefly, but it didn't fly. Regarding a girlfriend, I cannot consider that - my conscience would drown me in guilt.

EvilBiker

21st May 2007, 10:17 PM

Well I guess it depends on how important sex is for you. How about taking a vacation from each other? I'm not sure exactly why you need to be married if you don't have and aren't planning to have kids. In fact you said that getting married was about the point when the relationship began to head south. "Giving up" doesn't seem like a big problem if there are no kids. You are both adults, and you just need to meet someone else and try again. Time will heal the heart, but first you have to make a clean break.
We are considering a seperation, but not in the formal sense. We recognise the need for time alone, something which our daily lives has not really allowed us. It's a fine balance between spending quality time together (weekends away, etc.) and having time for ourselves. Our weeks are hectic, we only really get to connect on weekends. Tricky one, but something we need to sort out.

Regarding marriage sans kids. It's more of a protection issue, I suppose. Common law marriage in this country is still sort of rough around the edges when it comes to estate issues after death. Considering that I am 16 years older than my wife, I am pretty much assured of kicking the bucket before her, and I don't want her to have to deal with all sorts of legal issues.

EvilBiker

21st May 2007, 10:20 PM

EvilBiker

21st May 2007, 10:25 PM

Isn't there a specific drug marketed as "Viagra for Women"?
I've found nothing that is not doused in woo at this stage. As I mentioned in my initial post, I looked at Scentuelle, which has no proper test data (tried it anyway), and the only other one that looks like having some credence attached is Bremelanotide (http://www.palatin.com/products/bremelanotide/overview.asp). The drug is currently in Phase 2b clinical trials - not sure when it will be released.

EvilBiker

21st May 2007, 10:29 PM

IF you get divorced (I'm not advising you either way there), trade your sportbike in on a Harley Davidson TC-96. Your problem will solve itself.
Ah, now I get the username. Does Renaissance refer to the era when your machinery was produced? :)
Just kidding, mate. I'm not the cruiser type, I prefer the speed.
??? 'Cuz it'll vibrate his nuts off and kill his Libido too?
:D

Brian Jackson

21st May 2007, 10:48 PM

I just came from a similar situation. My ex had no desire for intimacy whatsoever and it made the relationship boring. So I left. Anybody that tells you sex isn't that important is attempting to justify why they aren't gettin' any. Granted there's more to a marriage than sex, but when that valve is turned off... It's kinda like vitamin C: you don't need much, but without that daily dose we get scurvy.

EvilBiker

21st May 2007, 10:49 PM

I'm in a similar situation, though not quite as bad. Sex went from nearly daily, to about 1/month seemingly overnight. There is/was also verbal (and sometimes physical) abuse. She has said that sex maybe twice a month would be ok with her, of course I'm thinking more like 3-4 times per week.

Like you, I gave her an ultimatum of either seek help, or divorce, which she did (this was more for the abuse then the lack of sex), and now we're actually in couples counseling as well as individual counseling. We had been to marriage counseling previously, but moved away from our first one, and had a lousy second one. Now we've found a very good psychologist, and we're dealing with real issues that go back to childhood.

Also, like your situation even when she does agree to sex, she often doesn't enjoy it, but merely tolerates it to try to appease me, but that is a thoroughly unsatisfying experience, and has actually led to more fights. Also like you, she enjoys it more when using drugs (weed in our case, haven't tried ecstasy, wouldn't even know where to get it (she's hinted at that as she used to be into the rave scene)).

One of the issues that she actually acknowledges is her weight. She gained a lot during her pregnancy, and has not lost it in the two+ years since. She doesn't feel good about her body so sex is uncomfortable for her psychologically and physically.

Another issue that has only surfaced in counseling has to do with our daughter. She has a medical condition, and it impacts my wife much more emotionally than it does me. Because I rationalize everything, my wife doesn't think I care or feel as deeply as she does about our daughter's situation, so she doesn't feel as connected to me, so that's another sexual turn-off for her.
CS, you are hitting the right points here. You seem to have exactly the same sort of situation - thanks for sharing.

I'll touch on two points:

1. On your daughter and the connection issue. When we first met, the wife was quite involved with the Wiccan philosophy - as a skeptic, I at first was pretty off-handed about it, which did, for a time, lead to some serious friction. I believe we have moved past that point, but it may have left scars. For a long time, she felt that we were not "connecting", because she could not believe I saw the world as she did. Sexual turnoff, definitely.

2. Weight - my wife has also put on weight, not much, about 8 kgs or so. She is actively trying to lose it, but it does affect how she feels. In my case, however, when she did lose weight in the last cycle (about 2 years ago), and looked smoking hot, it didn't do anything to her sex drive, and I ended up getting even more frustrated - I mean damn, how would you feel if you had this utter babe lying next to you and you could not do anything??? Argh.

I'll bring up some more on the issues in a summary post later on. On the good side, it seems like you are finding solutions?

EvilBiker

21st May 2007, 10:53 PM

Ironically, my next serious relationship developed the exact opposite problem: it got to the point where the sex was the only good thing about it, and any time we weren't ***********, we wanted to kill each other. For future reference, that's no good either.
Been there! One of my previous relationships was very sexual, but nothing else. The extremes on both sides suck.

Glad you are happier now!

EvilBiker

21st May 2007, 10:56 PM

there is some research going on to see if the use of the pill can have a permanent effect on libido. I know the pill killed my sex drive.

There are physical reasons the libido can dissapear as well though. Maybe she should get a gynological exam of some sort or just a normal physical to see if there is something else causing the problem.
I've seen a lot of stuff on the effect of the Pill, especially on the point of it killing off sex drive. I wish they would tell young women this when they start out using it.

Regarding gynae exams, she's been down that road - there are no physical problems.

Slimething

21st May 2007, 11:03 PM

EB, I feel your pain. I"ve been there and miscalculated badly. I don't offer personal advice to anyone, nor should anyone let others decide what to do in such matters. It's a painful decision you must make.

My ex started off much like yours after our first child. What I first thought was her not liking sex turned out to be a protracted nervous breakdown. She got better for a while and we had a second child. (dum-dum-dum) Then she took up weed and vodka and, after 18.5 y of marriage, greeted me when I got home with the news that she had retained a lawyer. The poor woman is basically a see-through cutout of what she had once been. I am attracted to strong, intelligent women and the one I married couldn't be topped. In the end, I tried to save her but it was beyond my ability. No winners.

So, you have no kids but you love and want to help your wife. Divorce won't be difficult, comparatively. Walking away will be, though. I have no idea which path you'll take but I wish both of you the very best possible outcome.

Zep

21st May 2007, 11:14 PM

Sounds to me like there is something else REALLY bothering her, to the point it drives everything else out of her mind. Is there anything else in her life that seems to occupy her time and interest REALLY intensely?

autumn1971

21st May 2007, 11:31 PM

I swear after reading this post that I will no longer joke about the decrease in sexual activity that has occured since my marriage and the subsequent birth of my son (preceeded by two stepsons from my wife's first marriage).
I was actually planning to make a snarky comment about having a kid, so no opportunity for sex ever presents itself again, but reading the entire post leaves me both sad for EvilBiker and his spouse, and newly grateful for my own marriage.
I hate to pull happiness for myself out of another's pain, but EvilBiker, as well as the other posters who have had similar problems, should know that I will reference this thread for the infinitude of married couples who imagine that their time-management difficulties rise to the level of true sexual discord.

calebprime

21st May 2007, 11:47 PM

Back up slowly, do not make eye contact, when the beast can no longer see you then run like heck.

DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER!

Get away from that psychiatrist as fast and as long as possible, as soon as possible. WOO WOO WOO WOO.

Of course that is your wife's decision.

Regression therpay , bad. Psychodynamics bad. CBT good.

:) You know, some of my skepticism rubbed off on my wife. She was the one who went "Regression therapy? Bleah! Woo!" when it was first mentioned by the psych. I gather the psych got the point, and didn't mention it again.

I just came from a similar situation. My ex had no desire for intimacy whatsoever and it made the relationship boring. So I left. Anybody that tells you sex isn't that important is attempting to justify why they aren't gettin' any. Granted there's more to a marriage than sex, but when that valve is turned off... It's kinda like vitamin C: you don't need much, but without that daily dose we get scurvy.

right on, BJ. I totally agree. You don't need that much, but you've got to have some.

my opinion: again, DD is right. Get away from that shrink. Get your wife away from that shrink. I've seen too many shrinks damage relationships with bad advice in my time.

2) Wellbutrin not an SSRI. maybe someone else said this. used for smoking cessation, also. short acting. fast washout. about as close to cocaine as you can get, legally. up and down in a few hours. no horrible withdrawal like Paxil. shouldn't depress libido that much. ironic that one drug was traded for another completely different drug.
it's the common approach to medication these days: see what sticks.

3) impossible for me to be aroused without my partner being aroused. (if we're in the same room, that is) so if she isn't, then it makes sense that you wouldn't be.

4) I've always had approximately 14 times the sex drive of any woman I've known, but that has changed as I hit middle age. I've always thought sex drive per se is more or less directly related to testosterone. (yes, women have some of that.)

5) open marriage only works for a tiny minority of (straight) people. almost no one can handle it without jealousy. not a good idea, unless you are a veteran at handling the feeling. A good analogy: some people enjoy overriding their fear of heights--but most people don't. I'm saying that jealousy is natural, but can be overriden for excitement, like you can learn to enjoy mountain climbing.

6) does she masturbate? that's a good thing. I'm with DJJ on that one.:D her lack of sex drive is probably not your fault. masturbation could teach her how to enjoy sex. good orgasms are a matter of concentration.

7) relax about linkage between love and sex. you love each other. sex does not have to be a direct expression of that love.

8) sex a great way for a married couple to make up after a fight. and a great way for a married couple not to kill each other. it's that "oh, yeah, I remember what I'm doing here" thing. but,

9) solo sex for you always a viable option...

10) MDMA? no. bad idea. phony closeness.

11) this is pretty good:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/555706_2

EvilBiker

21st May 2007, 11:48 PM

OK, now for this post...
Hi EB--
Well, first of all, a giant hug to you because this is a very difficult situation. I'm very sorry.

I read your post earlier and have been mulling it for a little bit. I think you've been making the efforts necessary to try and resolve this. While marriage is a relationship that transcends sex, sex is still important. And it seems like sex isn't the only major issue going on here. The comment about rape really struck me.

Issues of libido aside, sexual contact can be a loving, intimate way to connect. On a regular basis I provide sexual favors for my husband when I am not in the mood, simply because he is stressed, or just because I love him so damn much I want to do something that makes him very happy. If I can't find the drive to get in the mood, then my mood is one of love and sharing. A truly good marriage involves not just the relationship of lovers, but as PARTNERS, BEST FRIENDS, the two of you being one unit facing the world. Basic empathy is important. When my husband is hurting, it hurts my heart. When I have it in my power to make him happy or do something nice for him, it brings me joy. When I hurt him it crushes me, I feel absolutely awful. He behaves exactly the same toward me. This most definitely works all the way into the bedroom.

From the description of how the issues are flowing, that this is situation where you can't do anything right. Yes, through couples therapy you can find a nice middle ground. A good question is, are BOTH parties willing to get beyond their issues and meet on that middle ground? Is there enough humility on both sides to really see where the other partner is coming from? For the record, I see a lot of empathy from you, a sincere willingness to look for non-blaming causes for the problems. I know in a lot of relationships, some people are so caught up in their own hurt that they can't step out and realize that the other partner has needs and pain, too. If there is no willingness to do this, then little actual improvement can occur.

It seems to me you have the sex therapist and a psychiatrist telling you she's not going to improve in this department. The fact she uses the term rape, as well as the history of verbal abuse, tells me she is has some very deep, complex issues that may not just relate to brain chemistry, but a possible personality disorder that needs to be addressed. This requires a strong desire to work through it, and fearless explorations on her part. I'm not getting that she's ready for that from what you tell me, but I really couldn't know.

If I were in your shoes, the question I would be asking myself is if I am going to spend much more time waiting for her to work out her own issues. Does she truly empathize with my situation in this relationship, does she truly care about my hurt and frustration? Can she go into therapy and really work on herself in a truly productive way?

For some people I would suggest an open marriage, but I see this as absolutely disasterous for the situation.

I certainly, with all sincerity, wish you the best in this painful and complicated situation. I know there is much hard work and healing ahead of you, no matter what route you take. I apologize if anything in my reply mischaracterizes your situation.

Warmest thoughts-
MA

Firstly, thank you for a most insightful and caring post. I'm overwhelmed.

To sort of pull everything together here, let me give you some background - I know a lot of you will say "Ah! There's the problem!" It's not really that simple, though:

My wife lost her mother at 14 years old (bleeding on the brain - one day a headache, next day dead), and had to deal with a father who went over the edge - he hit depression, started drinking, threatened more than a few times to commit suicide and take her with him. A couple of years later, she was raped by a school friend.

She is highly intelligent perfectionist, and has a touch of OCD as well. She excelled at music, and played lead oboe for one of the city orchestras out here. Did a drama degree at University, and then lost direction, not knowing what to do after she graduated - a drama degree does not exactly set you up for life. When I met her, she was working as a waitress.

Since then, I have helped her get a career, and have supported her right through the process. It's been difficult, to say the least, but finally she is in a position career-wise where she is happy, and she is literally flying up the ladder. In 3 years she went from being a wine tasting assistant to being one of the top production planners in the wine industry, and she is still going up. I am extremely proud of her :)

After her rape, she received some rudimentary councelling. I thought initally that this was one of the reasons for the problem, but it appears that this is not the case. Of course, this depends largely on the type of psychologist she sees, I suppose.

One thing that therapy did highlight was that she has this problem with long relationships - after roughly 18 months she loses interest. Admitting to this was a big step forward. She is committed to finding a solution to the problem.

Regarding our relationship, she has said time and again that she wants it to work. She wants to spend the rest of her life with me, she is happy, but she knows she is hurting me. This last weekend, the subject of divorce was brought up because she could not see any other solution, from the answers that the therapist gave her.

(Your comment on best friends. We ARE best friends - funnily enough, I see that as a problem to some extent. I understand and agree that we should face the world untied, and we do. However, I am her ONLY best friend - she does not have anybody else to confide in - she is not very good at making friends, being somewhat introverted, and choosing to remain childless of course means that as her friends entered that mode of operation, she fell out of their social loop.)

So, I have the commitment from her side, which is a good thing.

Yesterday, when I found out about Bremelanotide, it gave me some hope again. OK, it may not necessarily be the answer, but it does say to me that science is working on a solution to a world-wide problem, so maybe one day soon there will be a workable solution. In the interim, however, we decided on the following:

I will step back a little. One of the major issues here (as CynicalSkeptic pointed out again), is that every advance of mine leads to fear of intercourse on the wife's side, and as she knows she cannot deal with that now, she rejects any and all forms on intimacy. I have suggested that we set aside a specific day for sex, starting at once a month. We will probably use X initially, but I have stressed that this is not a long term solution - I'm looking here at a period of maybe 4 - 6 months max.

I have assured her that I will not demand sex if she starts being intimate. I want her to feel she can do small things that titillate me, without the fear of it leading to intercourse. Hopefully this will lessen her guilt and apprehension, and will eventually lead to a normal sex life.

We will set aside specific times during the week just for talking, not about work, but about our feelings. We will also plan to get out of town at least once a month, just to get away from the everyday homeowner-type problems.

We will attend couple therapy, not with the aim of delving deep into each others souls, but to address communication issues. At the same time, she will continue to go to therapy by herself. I will be keeping in touch with her doctor on the subject of any possible medical solutions like Bremelanotide.

It's going to take some serious dedication, not to mention money (damn therapists are NOT cheap), but I sincerely believe she is worth it.

OK, now you can all call me a fool for fighting a lost cause.

skeptifem

22nd May 2007, 12:20 AM

Thank for the reponses!

1. She has had hormone level tests, specifically for testosterone. All normal.

just fyi ive heard testosterone tests are notoriously tricky and sometimes have to be done multiple times/at basal state in order to get an accurate reading.

EvilBiker

22nd May 2007, 12:21 AM

right on, BJ. I totally agree. You don't need that much, but you've got to have some.

my opinion: again, DD is right. Get away from that shrink. Get your wife away from that shrink. I've seen too many shrinks damage relationships with bad advice in my time.

Opinion noted, thanks! Now tell me: how the hell do you tell a good shrink from a bad one??

2) Wellbutrin not an SSRI. maybe someone else said this. used for smoking cessation, also. short acting. fast washout. about as close to cocaine as you can get, legally. up and down in a few hours. no horrible withdrawal like Paxil. shouldn't depress libido that much. ironic that one drug was traded for another completely different drug.
it's the common approach to medication these days: see what sticks.
Yep, know it's not an SSRI. Interestingly enough, I found out just the other day how similar it is to cocaine in terms of its effect. Both are dopamine reuptake inhibitors.

3) impossible for me to be aroused without my partner being aroused. (if we're in the same room, that is) so if she isn't, then it makes sense that you wouldn't be.
I wish. I sometimes get aroused just by looking into her eyes. There's an interesting little titbit on info behind that too - apparently when eye contact is made, even across a room with a total stranger, the result is an increase in dopamine production in the male. We are just wired for sex, it seems. Pity that women are wired a little differently. :p

4) I've always had approximately 20 times the sex drive of any woman I've known, but that has changed as I hit middle age. I've always thought sex drive per se is more or less directly related to testosterone. (yes, women have some of that.)
Yes, testosterone is related to sex drive in both males and females, hence the reason for checking testosterone levels under this sort of circumstance.

6) does she masturbate? that's a good thing. I'm with DJJ on that one.:D her lack of sex drive is probably not your fault. masturbation could teach her how to enjoy sex. good orgasms are a matter of concentration.
Not anymore, she doesn't. She used to, but not frequently. What's funny is that she used to seriously enjoy sex, and still does, when under the influence - orgasms are not a problem for her, either. *licks eyebrows with tongue*

7) relax about linkage between love and sex. you love each other. sex does not have to be a direct expression of that love.
No, but it does help affirm it. Something the sex therapist brought up: sex is essential for bonding in a relationship. To get chemical, read up on oxytocin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxytocin)

EvilBiker

22nd May 2007, 12:23 AM

just fyi ive heard testosterone tests are notoriously tricky and sometimes have to be done multiple times/at basal state in order to get an accurate reading.

Now that is news to me. I'll look into it, thanks!

calebprime

22nd May 2007, 06:05 AM

No, but it does help affirm it. Something the sex therapist brought up: sex is essential for bonding in a relationship. To get chemical, read up on oxytocin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxytocin)

yeah. in my fatigue last night, "oxytocin" kept turning into "potosin" or whatever the stuff is that causes uterine contractions. so i didn't put it in.

I once had to score a film about birthing called "Hello Baby", in which I had to write music for a petosin (sp?) drip. good film, still shown in hospitals.
the wife and i had to watch it ourselves. bad music.:o

this morning, after a little sleep, the word popped into my head.

so, in a chemical sense, i was leaving out the hugging stuff.

you're right--i was being a little hard-nosed.

and while i'm at it, the people who have stressed, well, stress & anxiety & relationship issues need to be heeded, too..:)

NeilC

22nd May 2007, 06:08 AM

With that history of slight neurosis, depression and rape this is something that would be very hard to pick apart I suspect. I really can't see there being a simple chemical resolution to this. I hope there is since it's obviously the simplest thing but it's seems too likely to be psychological. Good luck with that mate and do think of you own future and happiness in all of this. I personally think one has a duty to your other half but only to a degree.

Zep

22nd May 2007, 06:44 AM

I tend to agree with Splossy - there's a lot more going on psychologically there than merely dosing with various chemicals can deal with adequately.

I'd go find a real psychologist, not this woo person. Dealing with issues like rape can be a life-long psychological struggle for a woman. Anything could happen, so really solid professional help is the best bet for all concerned.

And can I suggest that hopping and skipping between drugs at such short intervals is not going to be too successful a plan. I expect some of these drugs require many months of careful monitored use to become effective, and shouldn't be used like a short course of headache tablets. That's if they are even needed in the first place. I'd suggest let the professionals sort that out for you both - that's what they are there for.

Good luck to you both!

baskett_case

22nd May 2007, 07:15 AM

I don't want to add confusing ideas, but I suffered with this problem with my marriage. I lost all libido and didn't want any affection. My problem was due to being sexually molested as a child. I would suspect this situation with your wife, as every woman I have met who has had this experience (at least in my group therapy and my friends) has had very similar situations come up in their relationships.

I lost my sex drive because someone had used me sexually, and so I associated sex with a power struggle. My poor husband went through it with me, but thanks to therapy, my sex drive returned and I do not view my husband's sexual drive as him attempting to gain pleasure at my expense.

FYI, women can masturbate without their partners knowing. Many women (and men for that matter) are extremely embarrassed by their masturbation, and by the time they are adults, are extremely adept at doing so without any sounds, etc. Just a heads up.

CynicalSkeptic

22nd May 2007, 07:22 AM

CS, you are hitting the right points here. You seem to have exactly the same sort of situation - thanks for sharing.

...

I'll bring up some more on the issues in a summary post later on. On the good side, it seems like you are finding solutions?
Ehh, we're making progress. We're a long way from a solution, but therapy is deintely helping (but we also have more issues than sex).

And now that I've read more of your posts, you guys have more issues as well. A ********** up childhood does not make for a mentally healthy adult.

baskett_case

22nd May 2007, 07:53 AM

Sorry, I missed one of your posts where you discuss your wife's rape. Her behavior makes sense. Therapy (NOT regression) is the only option IMHO that will help her. Medications can only do so much, unless they can erase traumatic memories. They help stabilize emotions, but cannot help her deal with her experience. I would demand she find a therapist/psychiatrist to start dealing with these issues, or she may never do so.

Dumbledore

22nd May 2007, 08:12 AM

supercorgi

22nd May 2007, 08:13 AM

Is it intercourse that scares your wife or other sexual activity as well? I think you said she's afraid of intimacy because she's afraid that will lead to intercourse. If it's intercourse alone, I would suggest swearing off intercourse for awhile - make a mutual commitment that intercourse will not be part of your sex life for say 6 months or so. Pleasure each other in other ways such as mutual masterbation, oral sex, use sex toys, etc. Refocus sexual activity as something pleasurable without the end goal of intercourse. You're probably already doing this, but I thought I would make the suggestion. Removing intercourse as an objective may take a lot of pressure off and allow you both to relax.

I would recommend not taking drugs during sex. If you had a normal sex life and had sex both with and without drugs, I would say it's probably OK. But associating sex ONLY with drugs can make you psychologically dependent on drugs in order to enjoy sex. You don't need to add any more psychological hurdles to a healthy sex life at this point.

Best of luck to you in resolving this problem. I hope for the best.

Dancing David

22nd May 2007, 08:32 AM

This is a great discussion, thanks to everyone who's contributing. Always encouraging to know there are others out there with similar problems, solutions, and methods of coping.

My wife had similar problems to EvilBiker's, just not as bad. Heavy periods and cramping. Her loss of libido happened after her OB got her on depo-provera. For 2 years we dealt with the same stuff you had to deal with, only not as bad I guess. Alcohol was my wife's best route to non-agonizing sex. Getting her off depo and me getting my vasectomy was the best thing we'd done for our marriage.

We've seen some counselors for couples and individually. I don't know if it's just bad luck but none of them seemed that good. I don't put much credence in their profession anymore.

Good luck.

I agree that much counseling can be useless. I recond that people work only with professionals who use a cognitive behavioral approach.

Questions to ask:

1. Are you a cognitive behavioral counselor/therapist?
2. What are the goals?
3. How will we measure progress towards the goals?
4. Will this take more than twelve weeks?

It may take more than twelve weeks due to scheduling but each goal should take no more than twelve weeks to accomplish. The goals should be clear and outcome based.

If they give you vauge answers:

"It will improve your sex life."

instead of

"First we will reduce the anxiety you both have about sexual intimacy. And get you comfortable with physical contact that does not lead to sex."

then they are not the people I would recomend.

calebprime

22nd May 2007, 09:24 AM

And now that I've read more of your posts, you guys have more issues as well. A ********** up childhood does not make for a mentally healthy adult.

??

care to elaborate?

Or maybe not, since it's EvilBiker's thread.

I suggest only you try to unpack that word "healthy"--see if it means anything more than "good".

calebprime

22nd May 2007, 10:17 AM

cp speaking here: strangely, i couldn't get back to this site.

so i'm posting the relevant portion, which is somehow in my web browser.

****mods, please remove if this is too long.****

i'm not sure what the limits are, and it's relevent.

from Medscape:

How Should We Evaluate the Patient With Female Sexual Dysfunction?

As always, a good history and physical exam is essential. The clinician should determine whether there is a history of chronic illness, depression, and use of medications (eg, pyschotropics, particularly selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors [SSRIs]), and the patient's hormonal status should be evaluated. In addition, any complaints of pain, both sexual and nonsexual, should be assessed. Other factors must be probed, such as family and spousal relationships and possible stressful life factors. A detailed genital exam is also essential to help identify reasons for possible sexual aversions as well as to educate the patient about her body.
What Treatments Are Available in the Treatment of Female Sexual Dysfunction?

Education
By far the most important role that a physician can play when seeing a patient with female dysfunction is as an educator. The Basson model normalizes many complaints that a patient might have.
Treatment of Underlying Affective Disorders
Depression can often manifest as a lack of sexual desire. This is further complicated by the fact that many of the medications can also affect sexual desire.

New Devices
The EROS-CTD is a vacuum that stimulates the clitoris, which results in filling the clitoral cavernosa with blood. This device may be helpful in allowing women to realize what clitoral engorgement feels like, a sensation they then correlate with subjective sexual arousal. Furthermore, it may be used to enhance arousal and orgasm.

Medical Therapy
Oral estrogen therapy. Although oral estrogen does have beneficial effects for treating urogenital atrophy, unopposed oral estrogen can create a hypoandrogenic state. This occurs because oral estrogen increases hepatic production of sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), which binds testosterone and thus lowers the free testosterone level. This effect is minimized when progestin is added or when the estrogen is administered transdermally. It is important to assess a time sequence in a patient with new onset of sexual dysfunction who has recently started hormone replacement therapy. If there is an obvious relation between onset of symptoms and commencement of estrogen replacement therapy, androgen replacement may be warranted.

Testosterone therapy. Several studies have shown some benefit with use of testosterone supplementation. Sherwin and associates[5] showed that a large single dose in hysterectomy patients enhanced motivation. Schreiner-Engel and coworkers[6] linked testosterone with increased sexual arousability. Sarrel and colleagues[7] showed that women on estrogen/testosterone therapy had greater sexual sensation and desire. Two formulations of hormone replacement with testosterone are currently on the market: Estratest (esterified estrogen 1.25 mg + methyltestosterone 2.5 mg) and Estratest HS (esterified estrogen 0.625 mg + methyltestosterone 1.25 mg). The label indication is for treatment of vasomotor symptoms.

Barrett-Connor and colleagues[8] studied patients on estrogen alone vs those on estrogen plus testosterone. The investigators noted that (1) the combination decreased high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol and triglyceride levels, (2) after 2 years of therapy, 20% of those continuing on the combination reported hirsutism, and (3) compared with estrogen alone, the combination does not suppress hot flushes. Therefore, before choosing to prescribe this medication, one should assess baseline laboratory values (including cholesterol, HDL, LDL) and coronary risk factors to help select out patients who may not be appropriate candidates for this therapy. Also, it appears that as one gets closer to an effective dose, there are increased side effects such as acne and hirsutism.

ClintonHammond

22nd May 2007, 10:44 AM

"Many women (and men for that matter) are extremely embarrassed by their masturbation"
With no good reason for it....

Miss Anthrope

22nd May 2007, 11:11 AM

EB--I'd never call you a loser or say it's a "lost cause". You're a good man, period. Each relationship is unique and none of us know first hand anything about the depth of your love and commitment to each other.

If it is going to work out, I'd say you're on the right path to doing what you can to make it so. You have my utmost respect and encouragement.

CynicalSkeptic

22nd May 2007, 11:18 AM

??

care to elaborate?

I was referring to this post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2621994&postcount=44)

calebprime

22nd May 2007, 11:43 AM

coolness. i'm a little paranoid even without the sleep deprivation.

also, i'll read the post.

and remain silent, no matter what i think.:)

Tsukasa Buddha

22nd May 2007, 02:35 PM

I have also seriously considered divorce, but since we have a child, that's really a last resort option for me. However, if things continue the way they are I'll seriously have to consider it again.

Statistically, children of parents who "stayed together for the children" have the same incidence of mental health issues as children whose parents had gotten a divorce.

However, depending on the age of the child, the amount of distress caused by divorce can be minimalized. There are usually fewer issues for the youngest (0-2) and oldest (moved out) age groups.

However, the two of you will always have a statistically higher chance of mental health issues in the future...

Just giving you some helpful info from my Psychology class :) . Hope things work out the best they can for you!

EvilBiker

23rd May 2007, 01:42 AM

There is a reason I am being harsh. Before I get to that though I like to say that I have a world of sympathy for you, having trouble in your marriage with someone you truly love is one of the most excrutiating pains in the world. Now for the harsh part, I speak plainly so there can be no confusion. You wife is obviously using sex for something else than intimacy, hence she had sex with you regularly for three years before you were married. Why did none of these issues come up before you were married, I urge you to deeply ponder this question. Sadly so many women are raped and molested in this country it is rare to meet one who is not, however if she is not willing to do the work to deal with this issue there is little you can do, she has to want to get better. Drugs will not fix her problems with rape and intimacy, serious therapy and a deep commitment to getting better will. You wife is clearly dependent on you, this not the sign of a healthy relationship, I understand that you love her, clearly despite your pleas otherwise you enjoy the relationship, the question is why. Do you want to stay with someone who is wholly dependent on you but will not be intimate with you, do enjoy the endless problems that she has, the nonstop excuses with no real solutions that she presents? You need to deeply exam why you are so willing to stay with her, this goes beyond saying that you love her or any other simple answer, what do you get from this relationship? There must be some aspect of this relationship, including the lack of intimancy and the endless problems with it that you enjoy.

Good insightful post, and not as harsh as you think!

Regarding the dependency issue - this has been a concern of mine for a while. I'll give you the feedback the sex therapist gave us: my wife lost her mother at an early age, the father effectively rejected her at the time (although now the relationship has improved immensely). In short, she had no real family after her mother's death. She may have seen me as the father she desired when she was younger, although this feeling may have been masked at the time by the lust of a new relationship. On ensuring that she was comfortable and in a stable environment, her outlook changed - she now did not want to lose the independence that was forced on her by the traumatic childhood. In effect, she did not want to lose her sense of self in the marriage. She had this idea that by giving herself totally over to being one part of a couple, she would lose her own identity.

The therapist pointed out that she wanted to have her cake and eat it too, something that was unfair on me. For example: during our therapy, my wife decided that she would like some time alone away from me, and so acquired an apartment in another town, for a period of 3 weeks. Her idea was that she wanted to be independent in her own space, and I was now supposed to come and "date" her, to try and rekindle the romance of the first days. Effectively she was trying to push me away and keep me close at the same time - talk about mixed signals.

It didn't work. I did not contact her for 3 days, as I believed that she wanted time alone. I got a rocket for not contacting her, I was supposed to have organised all these amazing dates, wined and dined her, etc. etc., all this on top of doing a full time job. She just could not understand why I could not drive 80 km out to meet her after work, after arranging reservations and special circumstances, have a date, and then drive 80 km back home to get up at 5 am to go to work the next day. It was not a good time, to put it mildly. We had a couple of meetings, but I was too tired and stressed, and they generally ended up in tears and anger.
We have got over that now. Although she still has some dependency issues, they have lessened considerably, and I am still working to reduce them more. A big plus of the incident was that it forced us to look at ourselves in depth, and with the help of the therapist, we finally understood where we were each coming from and realised what we were doing wrong on a communications basis. She was always attacking me, and I was backing down and letting her get away with it. We realised the need for each other's space as well (my bad - I was overcompensating for the loss of intimacy, yadayada).

Anyway, let me not ramble on on this point. Suffice it to say that yes, she is dependent on me, but it is something we both recognise and are actively working on. We are making progress on this front as well.

Now, why do I stay around? Well, I have given this one a lot of thought over the last couple of years. Emotionally, I'm a giving person, and I like to spoil people. I suspect that I saw a person in need, and reacted like a father figure to some extent. (This fitted directly into her wants, as I said previously.) Making somebody happy makes me happy, so to speak. Is that a good enough reason? The crux of it is that in this case the giving is not being returned anymore, and therein lies the problem, and hence the thread. Besides that:

She is extremely intelligent, something I value highly in a partner. We love the same things: cats, wine, books, movie types, food, nature, biking, music. We share the same world view and have the same goals in life. She supports me when I need her (in all other departments besides sexual, at this stage). She's a babe! (argh argh argh). She has the same sense of humour I do.

I could go on, but I'd rather just say that she is my companion and best friend. Good enough?

EvilBiker

23rd May 2007, 02:06 AM

cp speaking here: strangely, i couldn't get back to this site.
so i'm posting the relevant portion, which is somehow in my web browser.

Thanks for that! Noted for reference.

I agree that much counseling can be useless. I recond that people work only with professionals who use a cognitive behavioral approach.
Questions to ask:

Thanks DD, that's a start. Any info on weeding the good from the bad would be greatly appreciated. If anybody knows of a VERY good shrink who can nominate one out here of the same calibre through their contacts, that would be gold.

I am busy collating info from this thread, and will be bringing up various points with her doc and shrink, as well as looking out for a new one.

Oh, by the way, I may be the thread starter, but seeing as this issue seems to be pretty widespread in one form or another, I don't mind others bringing up their issues. I feel that any sharing on this topic can only be good in the long run. It has honestly been an informative experience so far. You guys rock, my heartfelt thanks. It is truly an honour and a privilege to be part of this forum.

Capsid

23rd May 2007, 04:20 AM

TriangleMan

23rd May 2007, 04:23 AM

Evilbiker, I'm not sure if this point of Dumbledore's was examined:
You wife is obviously using sex for something else than intimacy, hence she had sex with you regularly for three years before you were married. Why did none of these issues come up before you were married, I urge you to deeply ponder this question.

Reading your posts in this thread I was wondering the same thing. If much of the problem is related to significant psychological problems based on childhood trauma etc, where were they during those three years when your sex life was fine?

EvilBiker

23rd May 2007, 04:42 AM

Evilbiker, I'm not sure if this point of Dumbledore's was examined:

Reading your posts in this thread I was wondering the same thing. If much of the problem is related to significant psychological problems based on childhood trauma etc, where were they during those three years when your sex life was fine?

That, my friend, is the $1M question. The only response I have had from shrinks and the wife is that period is the typical "honeymoon period" of a relationship, where feelings of lust dominate.

If sex is being used as a weapon here, then why the apparent willingness of my wife to sort out the problems when confronted with divorce? Window dressing, or an honest desire to get things righted?

At a loss.

Dancing David

23rd May 2007, 04:52 AM

Someone mentioned it before, but could your wife have a personality disorder such as NPD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_Personality_Disorder)or HPD (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrionic_personality_disorder)?

I would be reluctant to look at those, the DSM states very clearly that personality disorders shall not be diagnosed in the precense of symptoms of an Axix I disorder.

So in the precense of depression and anxiety they are not to be considered.

Dancing David

23rd May 2007, 05:08 AM

That, my friend, is the $1M question. The only response I have had from shrinks and the wife is that period is the typical "honeymoon period" of a relationship, where feelings of lust dominate.

If sex is being used as a weapon here, then why the apparent willingness of my wife to sort out the problems when confronted with divorce? Window dressing, or an honest desire to get things righted?

At a loss.

And this is the peril of psychodynamic thinking. One tries to attribute past and current trends to inner workings that can not be readily assesed.

Behaviorism takes everybody off the hook, there is no need to worry about the 'why' so much as the 'what'.

Take the issue of intimacy. Yes trauma will effect intimacy and treating the trauma will help the individual health, but won't always change thier issues of intimacy. (I do recomend addressing the trauma however.) Or if there is a 'dependancy' issue, they are like the basis of most relationships. Partners usualy are dependant upon each other.

So it is easier to say

1. Partner A has a perception and anxiety reaction regarding physical intimacy that might lead to sex. Identify the antecedants and behaviors that support the anxiety and fear response.

2. Pratner B has a perception and anxiety reaction regarding the rejection (perception) of physical intimacy. Identify the antecedants and behaviors that support the anxiety and fear response.

3. Both partners work on thier individual triggers to reduce the anxiety and fear reaction, reduce supporting and triggering behaviors and replace them with new behaviors.

4. After the targets have been reached, new patterns of behavior are identified and modifications are begun on them. Especialy patterns of expectations and comuunication, after working through the rest of intimacy, romance and sexual arousal/safety perceptions.

Now I will grant that this is not everyone's cup of coffee, some people want to explore thier childhoods and past relationships that created the conditioned responses and patterns. They are useful to identify as antecedant events to the conditioned behavior. Some people want to heal the relationship and traumas that are part of thier psyche, and they should do so if that is thier desire. However they should not do so as part of changing behaviors involving intimacy with thier partners because that just boogers that up.

many people have a natural aversion to the behaviorist/reductionist approach. However it is very effectives, for thiose who are interested I recommend looking at Burn's Feeling Good as an example of how cognitive behavioral therapy works.

With one major caveat, you can't force another person to do CBT is thier desire is something else. Some people don't like the reductionist model at all.

EvilBiker

23rd May 2007, 05:09 AM

I would be reluctant to look at those, the DSM states very clearly that personality disorders shall not be diagnosed in the precense of symptoms of an Axix I disorder.

Care to elaborate the bolding?

So in the precense of depression and anxiety they are not to be considered.

I was getting worried there for a minute. The problem with those disorders (I was busy reading up on them) is that with a little paranoia on my part, any of them could be made to fit the situation.

69dodge

23rd May 2007, 07:54 AM

He meant "Axis I", presumably.

EvilBiker

23rd May 2007, 08:04 AM

He meant "Axis I", presumably.

Yeah, I assumed that - I was just trying to get some info from DD in terms understandable to the layman, ie. me.

...although with the amount of research into this I'm currently doing, I should be able to apply for my sex therapy practice licence in, oh, about another 10 minutes.:)

Dumbledore

23rd May 2007, 08:26 AM

I am glad you did not take my post as harsh, but as helpful which was my intention. My question for you is, what is she doing about her problems? You seem to be going to great lengths to save this relationship with no real help in return, as you stated before. In my experience people who are unwilling to do the work to make and support a relationship, do not spontaneously start doing so. It sounds like you will always be lost in a maze of psychological and medical problems that you will never escape as long as you are with her. Also there are many people in this world who say they want help with their problems, and the do not. It really comes down to one simple fact, does she really want to get better and deal with her problems, this means that she needs to do the work to do so. I know you love her, but your help can do little for her problems, she is the one that has to do the hard work of getting better no one else. Again I do not say this to be harsh, but to point out what might be really going on.

69dodge

23rd May 2007, 08:28 AM

Yeah, I assumed that - I was just trying to get some info from DD in terms understandable to the layman, ie. me.

Oh. Can't help you there. This layman's knowledge doesn't extend very far beyond knowing how to spell it...

Best of luck to you and her.

calebprime

23rd May 2007, 08:35 AM

These "avoids" are all from my personal experiences.

Again, when it comes to his field of expertise, DD is de man.

I'm thinking back on all the experiences I've had, or my family and close friends have had.

Avoid anyone with woo theories--Rolfing, Primal Scream, hard-core Freudians, Multiple Personality Disorder, hypnotists, even (cp ducks) feminists if they are the kind of feminists who blame men in general for everything (Bad Patriarch feminists), Dissociative Disorder therapists.

Avoid anyone who is too damn charismatic. You're not there to join a cult, or give up your possessions, or be entertained, or be transformed into a new butterfly.

Avoid therapists who won't answer questions about their theories or methods or who become defensive when asked (polite) questions.

Avoid therapists who mix religion and therapy unless they are very gentle and pragmatic about it and their religious outlook matches yours.

Avoid therapists who call you persistently after one session.

Avoid therapists who try to convince you that you are really screwed up and probably should take out a loan to deal with your problem.

Avoid anyone who wants to medicate you after talking to you for 10 minutes or after you've merely filled out a checklist.

Avoid therapists who see whatever problem they have everywhere and in everything.

Avoid therapists who seem to say that whatever ails you can certainly be fixed, or altered.

Avoid therapists who aren't covered by your insurance:D

Avoid therapists who accept presents from you, or fall in love with you, or want to have sex with you.

Avoid therapists for couples therapy who are clearly loyal--for whatever reason--to one of you or the other.

That being said, I know a very good woman therapist (I've never referenced her before in any of my previous rants here) who my wife and I have been seeing on and off together and separately for years. (That in itself might be considered a no-no, but it's ok--she doesn't take sides.)

She cuts to the chase, gives good practical advice. Reduces her fee to what we can afford. Listens. Knows when to keep it simple. (As in--"Don't kill yourself") Knows when to engage with you in complexity.

Yet, I wouldn't trust her advice about medication. I know more about it than she does, and I'm not on anything. Just interested in the subject.

Many of these can only be discovered after the fact--so I'm being only a little facetious. But all these behaviours I have observed, and more.

caleb

oh, one more. recent case. avoid therapists who just plain seem like idiots. (I'm thinking of one psychiatrist who I now refer to as "George Costanza".

Dancing David

23rd May 2007, 08:43 AM

He meant "Axis I", presumably.

OOOOOOPS!

Me and my spelling....

Kariboo

23rd May 2007, 08:47 AM

Care to elaborate the bolding?

I was getting worried there for a minute. The problem with those disorders (I was busy reading up on them) is that with a little paranoia on my part, any of them could be made to fit the situation.

For goodness sakes, don't try to diagnose someone over the internet or by proxy. What will happen is the same that happens when teaching students about these disorders, everyone reads up on them and thinks either they or someone close is suffering from it (this will also happen when teaching med students about rare disorders.... headache? must be a brain tumor). If you read the DSMIV everyone will recognize themselves in a lot of the disorders, doesn't mean you have them.

Also please remember that the reason there is a DSM is that it is easier to communicate between diagnosticians. So If I say you have disorder X someone on the other side of the globe will understand what I mean by that (less confusion about what does "depressed" means). That is the reason the DSM keeps changing, we figure out new things as we go along. What used to be a disorder (homosexuality) is no longer one, and what didn't used to be is now (nicotine/caffeine addiction). That's it, it's a language for diagnosticians, don't make more out of it than that.

Having said all that, even if you can find the spitting image of what is ailing you in a diagnostic manual, it gives no solutions. So what if you can out a label on yourself but don't know how to feel better? Especially personality disorders (Axis II) are very tricky. Personality disorders describe a combination of personality traits and say: if you have these you have a disorder. This is done by consensus. Personality disorders are notoriously difficult to treat since you are basically saying: it's your person that is a problem.

I think it is hard for us to not know what is going on and we would like a problem to be set up in the if A then B then C way. So we think that if you dig deep enough you will find the "start" of the problem and it will be easy to work back form there. Unfortunately in reality that is not the case. I have seen a lot of people spending months or years in therapy trying to find the "cause". In the mean time they are stagnant and will put a lot of things off until they will reach what they think will be the answer to the question. So what if you never find that?

It's easy for people on a forum to react to something you write and go AHA , that it. Usually people on a forum know that they are dealing with too little information to make a sound judgment. Psychologists and the like suffer from the same problem, they can only work with what information is given to them, unfortunately a lot of them don't know that that is usually not enough to make a sound judgment either and start spouting their opinion as fact. It might be that you will never find out the how or why in your wife's case (more importantly she might never find out either)

The question is how much time and money are you willing to fork over to keep digging? And then what? Why not try to define (maybe with the help of a therapist) and here are mu $2 cents: what it is that you both want, how does that look? In you case what does sex/sexuality/intimacy look like? What does independence in an intimate relationship look like? Are the both of you willing and trusting enough to try and figure it out together? IS the relationship still what both of you want if the dynamics (concerning independence, roles, emotions) change? what time frame? what is needed to get there? where are you now with these goals? how will you know you are working in the right direction? Maybe you need some medication in order to support your plan,? can you get the two of you and your therapists to work together? Do you really want to change together or are you afraid of the consequences if you split? and so on.....

OR maybe you just need to do different to feel different? Sometimes talking helps, sometimes it only keeps you in a rut of rehashing.

I hope you and your wife are able to find a solution together and feel comforted by the thought that you are doing this together instead of both of you fending for your own. It's a difficult road the two of you are traveling and I am wishing you all to best

Kariboo

calebprime

23rd May 2007, 08:51 AM

a few more, then gotta fly, as DJJ like to say.

avoid therapists who minimize side-effects of medications, or deny them

don't get medicated by a GP, unless he/she knows you well and YOU;VE done the research

avoid therapists, Dr.'s who want to change some medication you're already on without a taper-off period, and without extreme caution

avoid any shrink who wants to hospitalize you because you say you're hearing voices---this is not self-reference--but from a recent N.Y.T article

Dancing David

23rd May 2007, 08:56 AM

Yeah, I assumed that - I was just trying to get some info from DD in terms understandable to the layman, ie. me.

...although with the amount of research into this I'm currently doing, I should be able to apply for my sex therapy practice licence in, oh, about another 10 minutes.:)

A brief digression

the DSM is charaterised as a multi-axis system

AxisI:the commonly defined mental illnesses and stress reactions also the developmental disorders.

Axis II: the alleged personality disorders

Axis III: medical issues

Axis IV: stressors

Aixs V: Global Assesment of Functioning

The personality disorders are a wierd thing because they actualy are like someone who has limited personality or coping skills so they are more like a partial personality .

If I remember the Cluster A of PDs is the ones that are like schizophrenia light, in that each one is like a partial manifestation of schizophrenia.

Cluster B is the one that is a red flags Borderline, Histronic/Nassicistic, AntiSocial and Dependant

I can't remember Cluster C

The issue is at the top of the section on personality disorders it states very clearly that personality disorders are not to be assesed in th precense of active symptoms of an Axis I disorder. In layman's term, a person who syill has symptoms of anxiety, depression, schizophrenia... etc. is not supposed to be diagnosed with a Axis II personality disorder.

So while it might be useful to state someone has poor coping skills and tends to use a strategy of 'dependant type', 'histrionic/narcissistic' to cope with interpersonal and intrapersonal issues, it is very stigmatizing. The issue is that someone can not have avoidant personality if it manifests in the precense of anxiety of panic attacks. Just as someone with PTSD should not be diagnosed with Borderline PD.

They are not really useful except when you encounter a person who really is dependant, they can not make a choice without excessive worry and support from others, but they have no mental illness.

The other issue is that I have yet to meet someone who manifests a PD (except for antisocial) that is not a big time substance abuser or dependant on substances. That also falls under Axis I.

So given the level of overgeneralization and stigma associated with the personailty disorders they are not really that usefull.

Kariboo

23rd May 2007, 09:23 AM

The personality disorders are a wierd thing because they actualy are like someone who has limited personality or coping skills so they are more like a partial personality .

If I remember the Cluster A of PDs is the ones that are like schizophrenia light, in that each one is like a partial manifestation of schizophrenia.

Cluster B is the one that is a red flags Borderline, Histronic/Nassicistic, AntiSocial and Dependant

I can't remember Cluster C

The DSM-IV lists ten personality disorders, grouped into three clusters. The DSM also contains a category for behavioral patterns that do not match these ten disorders, but nevertheless exhibit characteristics of a personality disorder. This category is labeled Personality Disorder NOS (Not Otherwise Specified).

Cluster A (odd or eccentric disorders)

* Paranoid personality disorder
* Schizoid personality disorder
* Schizotypal personality disorder

Cluster B (dramatic, emotional, or erratic disorders)

* Antisocial personality disorder
* Borderline personality disorder
* Histrionic personality disorder
* Narcissistic personality disorder

Cluster C (anxious or fearful disorders)

* Avoidant personality disorder
* Dependent personality disorder (not the same as Dysthymia)
* Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (not the same as Obsessive-compulsive disorder)

steverino

23rd May 2007, 09:40 AM

Regarding the dependency issue - this has been a concern of mine for a while.

she had no real family...
She may have seen me as the father...
she desired...
she was younger...
she was comfortable and in a stable environment...
she now did not want to lose the independence...
she did not want to lose her sense of self in the marriage...
She had this idea that by giving herself totally over..
she wanted to have her cake and eat it too...
she would like some time alone away from me...
she wanted to be independent in her own space...
she was trying to push me away and keep me close...
she wanted time alone...
She just could not understand why I could not drive 80 km...
she still has some dependency issues...
She was always attacking me, and I was backing down ...
she is dependent on me...

Now, why do I stay around?

Why indeed.

The above are all clips from a single post of yours. I was engaged to an alcoholic. Like your wife, it was all about "she," I mean, her. She too had daddy-issues, depression, abandonment issues, and was intelligent-had a fine food and wine business. She finally found comfort, not through me, but through AA. I found out I was a "rescuer." That means I also had serious issues, and was codependent. IOW, I derived satisfaction trying to cure her, and while doing so avoided my own issues.

Let's not talk about my ex-fiancee. Let's not talk about your wife. Let's talk about you. I feel you should go to a therapist yourself. Give yourself permission to let go and enjoy your own life, with her, or without her. If you get a divorce, a therapist will urge you to avoid another woman needing rescuing. Otherwise you will repeat this behavior with the next patient.

Fnord

23rd May 2007, 09:49 AM

Four key statements in th OP caught my attention:

1) “This started around about the time we got married.”

2) “Her mood swings were extreme, and she used to verbally attack me nearly every day.”

3) “…there is no apparent cause for her lack of libido.” (according to her psychiatrist.)

4) “In her words, she cannot face 'being raped'” by you.

My opinions:

1) Welcome to married life. You've been suckered in to a 'permanent' relationship with a woman who used sex as a lure to catch you as her financial provider.

2) She appears to have some form of bipolar disorder. I am not a medical professional, but this is my opinion nonetheless.

3) More evidence that the field of psychiatry attracts people who have no idea what they're doing -- just like every other profession. She needs a new psychiatrist.

4) She associates sex with rape ... hmm ... I wonder why?

Since there are no children involved (and who would want to have their kids raised by a frigid manic-depressive with suppressed memories of being raped?), your own best option is divorce. Give her the house, the car, and half of your savings, and run far, far away.

Madalch

23rd May 2007, 11:04 AM

calebprime

23rd May 2007, 11:43 AM

brief digression for Madalch.

While I--at least in principle--agree with your sig, I feel that it is too general and possibly reckless advice.

You would deprive us of the Great One's version of Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds. :(

http://www.dafyd.me.uk/blog/docs/****_lsd.mp3

dig the muted brass--maybe Harmon mutes...

steverino

23rd May 2007, 12:28 PM

Lucky. My wife's libido started decreasing as soon as I proposed.

I am very surprised, assuming your avatar is an actual portrait of you.

Ivor the Engineer

23rd May 2007, 12:42 PM

You're an engineer right? Try this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepford_Wives):)

Or perhaps you did and it went terribly wrong:eek:

Madalch

23rd May 2007, 01:43 PM

You would deprive us of the Great One's version of Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds.

For humanity's sake, that's the whole idea.

thaiboxerken

23rd May 2007, 01:53 PM

Isn't it weird that "Married with Children" portrayed the man as being the one that loses the libido when it's usually the other way around?

Silly Green Monkey

23rd May 2007, 03:29 PM

Why is sex a deal-breaker? Why is it so important?

Beth

23rd May 2007, 04:19 PM

Why is sex a deal-breaker? Why is it so important?

Because it just is to most people. Personally, I think we're hard-wired to want it. But I'm not sure if there is any scientific evidence to back up that claim :)

ponderingturtle

23rd May 2007, 04:53 PM

Why is sex a deal-breaker? Why is it so important?

Why does it matter why it is important? If it was kids would it be more acceptable? The issue is can these people find a way to live where they are both happy and together, and at least for EB the happy requires a certain amount of sex.

What is a deal breaker is going to vary with every person, trying to say that one persons wants are inapropraite is silly when those wants do not harm another.

steverino

23rd May 2007, 05:06 PM

Why is sex a deal-breaker? Why is it so important?

Because in the case of their marriage her lack of libido is a manifestation of pain in her past, and of her inability to express intimacy in the present.

Miss Anthrope

23rd May 2007, 05:37 PM

Why is sex a deal-breaker? Why is it so important?

This has been answered well in many ways by the posts above. But if you want to get down to it, why do men produce so many sperm each day? That in itself is a look into basic biology.

Fordama

23rd May 2007, 06:15 PM

So many deep answers--I'll go for the more shallow (but time tested.)

What about a mistress or a "professional?" It is not a new solution. Men have been doing it since, well, probably since monogamy took form. Now maybe the basic dishonesty puts you off (that's really probably a good thing) but it seems that somehow you are going to have to compromise something. It's an accommodation with one's conscience that many men are seemingly able to make.

I don't think I'd take my own suggestion, but then again I am fortunate enough not to be in that position.

Just spitballing, that's all.

Fordama

69dodge

24th May 2007, 01:50 AM

Why is sex a deal-breaker? Why is it so important?

One could as easily ask why not having sex is so important to her. Or why him not having sex with anyone else is so important to her.

Not really the kinds of question that have an answer. People are the way they are.

Dumbledore

24th May 2007, 10:40 AM

Sex is only as important as it is important to the partners in the relationship. If one partner wants sex and the other doesn't you have a problem. Hence the problem in the relationship we are discussing, she had sex with him nonstop for three years before they were married and then stopped cold turkey once they were married. He still wants to have sex, she doesn't, hence problem.

Fnord

24th May 2007, 05:40 PM

Why is sex a deal-breaker? Why is it so important?

Because it's only when a woman has sex with a man that he really feels that she loves him.

No ... I don't mean that old "If you love me, you'll let me" kind of crap.

I mean that your average man expresses his love for a woman through actions. Doing her laundry, cooking her supper, and washing her car (without being asked or nagged), for example, are done to express love. Thus men, being men, relate love to performing an activity for another person, and relate a person performing an activity for them as an expression of love for them, as well!

No ... holding hands while watching a 2-hour chick-flick doesn't count. Neither does forcing a man to endure listening to a 20-minute narrative about the angst of dealing with bad hair. Such things are passive, and do not involve any real activity.

(Hint: If a woman thinks that a man seems to not love her, then it's most likely just a sign that he is bored. And if he's bored, he will seek excitement. If not at home, then elsewhere. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. Some of us even get away with it...)

Does a woman want her man to think she really loves him? Then she should learn to like: (1) team sports, (2) power tools and other gadgets, (3) auto/boat racing, (4) hunting/fishing, (5) scream-and-grab-the-headboard sex, or (6) all of the above.

It's just that simple.

steverino

24th May 2007, 06:22 PM

Fnord- There's been no sign of EvilBiker. I think we may have scared him away.:p

Morrigan

24th May 2007, 07:47 PM

Fnord, could you be more caricatural?

Fnord

24th May 2007, 07:55 PM

Fnord, could you be more caricatural?

No, I think that's as about as far as my opinions will go. The sad thing about caricatures, is that they are based on actual, observable behaviors.

The nice thing is that they are somewhat less harmful than stereotypes.

Again, I expressed opinions, which are subjective and not necessarily reflective of objective reality, so yours are likely to be different.

I'd like to see what a degreed professional in this field -- a behavioral psychologist, for example -- would post as a learned and informed response.

Any takers?

steverino

24th May 2007, 09:12 PM

I'd like to see what a degreed professional in this field -- a behavioral psychologist, for example -- would post as a learned and informed response.

Any takers?

The last therapist I saw wasn't getting any from his wife, either.:p

thaiboxerken

25th May 2007, 01:17 AM

I think this situation is somewhat unique in that the wife feels that having sex is equivalent to rape. That, in itself, shows something is seriously wrong. Many couples have less sex after marriage, but if one party or another is so disgusted by sex that they feel molested or raped by intimate touch, it's probably time to call it quits.

There is a difference between losing sexual interest and being disgusted by the thought of having sex with the spouse.

EvilBiker

25th May 2007, 01:26 AM

Fnord- There's been no sign of EvilBiker. I think we may have scared him away.:p

Pfft - no, I'm still around, my day job hamster wheel has just been spun up a bit.

Thanks for the comments - I'll address them all over the weekend.

ponderingturtle

25th May 2007, 10:02 AM

Does a woman want her man to think she really loves him? Then she should learn to like: (1) team sports, (2) power tools and other gadgets, (3) auto/boat racing, (4) hunting/fishing, (5) scream-and-grab-the-headboard sex, or (6) all of the above.

I have to wonder how many of these can be worked into one activity.

a_unique_person

25th May 2007, 10:10 AM

There's no single answer to this. A 60-year-old guy and woman might be desperately, clothes-rippingly attracted to each other.

Often we're sexually attracted to someone just because they're new.

What's that old psychology? Romantic love lasts 3 years? Which I assume is a euphemism for sexual attraction.

Interestingly, my husband is the only man I've ever been attracted to for more than 2 years. No idea if we got married because we're hot for each other, or if some subconcious mechanism causes us to remain attracted to each other because we know we're married.

I don't know if I'm being wildly unfair here, but it seems to me far more likely that a woman is simply no longer attracted to a man than there being some underlying medical or psychological issue. But for the man, it's the hardest to accept, for good reason.

Yep, it's all in her head. The sex therapist got it right in the first place, you just couldn't face up to it then, but it sounds like now you can. Classic case of "If you love something set it free...". I now apologise for quoting a tea towel, but in this case I think it applies.

Fnord

25th May 2007, 11:44 AM

I have to wonder how many of these can be worked into one activity.

Well ... I'm told that certain videos exist that demonstrate the use of both (1) and (2) with (5), but I couldn't swear to it myself...

:whistling

ponderingturtle

25th May 2007, 11:59 AM

Well ... I'm told that certain videos exist that demonstrate the use of both (1) and (2) with (5), but I couldn't swear to it myself...

:whistling

1, 2 and 5 are easy, I have heard of such video's myself, and 1 or 2 and 5 is even easier. It is getting 3 and 4 in there that I am wondering about.

Mabey in a fashion like chess boxing you go from one activity to the other...

egslim

25th May 2007, 01:19 PM

I have to admit I'm thoroughly unqualified to offer any marriage advice, so please take my comments with a grain of salt. I do have some experience about dealing with new girls, and perhaps some of that applies to your situation as well.
One of the problems which has manifested itself due to the lack of intimacy is that I have been overeacting the other way, effectively smothering her with attention, which I think has actually pushed her away more. This came out of our initial therapy session.
Your comment on best friends. We ARE best friends - funnily enough, I see that as a problem to some extent. I understand and agree that we should face the world untied, and we do. However, I am her ONLY best friend
In my experience women feel attracted to men who a) take the lead and b) they have to "work" a little for. Smothering her with attention and supporting her as a best friend goes against point b), which I believe is the problem in your situation.
I seriously suggest you talk to her about finding a prostitute. That would satisfy your sexual needs, while she doesn't have to worry about you getting into a relationship.
The second step should be to pull yourself away from her a little. Stop giving her as much attention as she wants and avoid any physical contact she would perceive as dangerously intimate.
Then hopefully after a while she will discover she needs you, and try to draw your attention. By dressing sexy, cooking something you especially like, offering to do something for you - it can really be anything. At that point it is up to you to "reward" her by giving her some attention.

calebprime

26th May 2007, 04:55 AM

All this advice we're giving is great--mine included--as long as you don't act on any of it.:eek:

Fnord

26th May 2007, 11:20 AM

D-I-V-O-R-C-E

Simple, quick, and efficient.

baskett_case

26th May 2007, 05:31 PM

I agree with the divorce notion, either she seriously applies herself to getting better, read you are not doing the work for her, or you get divorced. It will hurt and be difficult, but in the long run it is for the best, I also recommend getting a therapist to get to the bottom of why you have chosen to be in such a self destructive relationship.:cool:

Pidge

1st June 2007, 12:25 AM

Roboramma

1st June 2007, 03:15 AM

Regarding the suggestion of getting a girlfriend on the side - it seems like that's not viable for you. But you don't have to go that far - I had a bit of a similar situation in my last relationship and a bit of flirtation with girls that I was attracted to (even though i knew nothing would come of it) took a lot of the pressure off. It made me feel more confident, realising that even if this girl wasn't that interested in having sex with me any more, plenty of others were, and less worried about sex, which is turn made her a little more aroused.
Telling her about the girls that I was flirting with was a bonus as well. A little jelousy can be a serious turn on - and so long as she still knows that she can trust you, I don't think it has to become a problem for the relationship.

But that's just something that worked (briefly) for me. Certainly don't expect it to do so for everyone - just thought I'd throw it out there.

mhaze

1st June 2007, 05:13 AM

Divorce the shrink.

bruto

11th June 2007, 10:28 PM

Some of this sounds painfully familiar. My first marriage lasted 13 years, but the last two were pretty awful, and I spent much of that time being told the 1001 reasons why she couldn't love me, because I did/was/didn't/wasn't something or other. One could go on and on. We had counseling, etc. Many of the words and phrases appearing in this thread appeared here too. At some point the counselor suggested we stop trying to make the marriage work and instead make the divorce work. A few years later, she came out as a lesbian (though not directly to me). When the question came up once during the bad times of the marriage, she had expressed shock and disgust at the very idea. I'll never know how much she was aware of or acknowledged to herself during our marriage, but it certainly explains a lot in retrospect. This is not to say she wasn't also a difficult person with some other problems as well, but a shift of orientiation trumps them all.

I'm not saying it's necessarily the case here, but I haven't seen any mention of it yet, and it seems worth considering. If what she's really feeling is that she does not want to be in a relationship with a man, then sex with you will always feel to her like a violation, and it doesn't matter how long you wait, how many marriage restoring exercises you attempt, how many times you serve breakfast in bed.

The Grave

12th June 2007, 04:32 PM

A man & wife having problems with sex go to see a counsellor...:(

Man:"No matter what I do, I can't seem to satisfy her, doctor".:blush:

Doc:"There's a new therapy out. Go home and try this, tonight. After a warm bath to heat up, take a 10p coin and balance it on your right shoulder. While rhythmically moving in-out-in-out chant...10 pence-10pence-10pence.":boggled:

Later chanting - 10pence - 10 pence....

Next week.

Doc:"Ok, so it didn't work. Now try a 10p on both shoulders".

Later chanting - 10pence/10pence - 10pence/10pence....

A week later.

Doc:"Still no luck? Now we elevate to experienced! Balance the 2, 10p's as before and this 50p coin on your head".

Later chants - 10p/10p/50p - 10p/10p/50p....

A month later.

Doc:"Ok. This is the advanced treatment. I've never tried it out yet. Do as before, but now balance this £1 coin on the end of your penis, and chant 10p/10p/50p-a £1, over and over".

Later at home in the bedroom....

Chants - 10p/10p/50p/ a £1 - 10p/10p/50p/ a £1 - 10p/10p/50p/ a £1....

Man:"Ahhh bollocks...£1.70 - £1.70 - £1.70...............:D

Griff.

The Grave

12th June 2007, 04:44 PM

A sad story (no names mentioned!)...:(

While out with a friend, I was introduced by him to his mate like this....

My mate:"You think my marriage was bad. Listen to this.":eek:

New friend:"My wife came home and we argued. She told me she wanted to try something new as our marriage was boring. So I took her to concerts, wined & dined her, spoilt her etc...But she still wasn't satisfied. So I asked her what she wanted....Her reply was --3 in a bed, with a friend of hers {female}, to which I (he) replied no-way! {he was a really nice down to Earth guy!}. To which she said that she wanted a divorce!":jaw-dropp

He was devastated.

It later transpired that 'she' and 3 out of 4 of her sisters had recently joined the "women's rugby team" that (he) had been coaching. But what (he) didn't know was that there was more than soap being passed around in the changing room! And they were all "helping each other out" - if you get me!

Griff...Lesbee friends?;)

SirPhilip

12th June 2007, 05:01 PM

Please excuse the long post - I really need some help here.... Have to admit, it's pretty huge.

My wife has now finally come out and said that she does not enjoy sex - in fact, she goes as far as to say that it repulses her. Even French kissing is a turnoff. It is.

This started around about the time we got married. Before then, we had a very active sex life, for roughly 3 years. How roughly.

I suppose I cannot take this into account, really, due to it being the honeymoon period of the relationship. I do find the complete turnaround disconcerting. A lot of people don't like being turned around. It makes them feel bent over backward, and by bent over backward I mean placed in an odd, uncomfortable position. This is the wrong forum if you don't like that sort of thing by the way.

We attended sex therapy sessions together for roughly 8 months, from around October 2005. Therapist concluded that I had a normal, active sex drive, that the wife was not contributing to the relationship at all sexually, recommended that I walk away from the relationship. This was quite a mindf**k, I thought sex therapists were supposed to HELP.Every (the)rapist says that. It's a long running scam. They need to be debunked hard.

At that stage, the wife was on the pill (not sure which type). Her mood swings were extreme, and she used to verbally attack me nearly every day. Flimflam. Women with mood swings are the best, and by best I mean the worst.

(I won't go into the Mirena saga, it's just a side issue, I believe). Cipralex was chosen by her GP as the SSRI of choice as it was believed at that stage to have the least effect on libido... A negative integer value by any other name.

Armed with a myriad of facts on SSRIs, various agonists, MAOIs, etc. I visited her GP and had a free and frank discussion on possible ways forward. Heh, he was actually quite taken aback by the fact that a mere engineer knew more about the subject than he did! Anyway, he agreed with me on the effects of Cipralex, and after some discussion with colleagues, decided to try the Wellbutrin approach. I must add here that he was not at all aware that we were having any sexual problems - the wife never mentioned it to him. I hate to be oversimplistic here, but the addage "Hugs not drugs" seriously applies here. Perhaps I'm a typical Italian, but affection and sex are what rock and roll is about.

I must state here that the wife has been trying as hard as I am to find a solution. We both love each other, she wants to spend the rest of her life with me, but she realises that I am not happy with the current situation.
This weekend she broached the subject with me again, I suspect after being egged on by here psychiatrist to report back to me. According to the psych, there is no apparent cause for her lack of libido. So, in effect, I cannot realistically hold out any hope of a change to the situation any time soon, and perhaps never. If she doesn't have any medical condition that clearly identifies what is causing a negation of 'libido', and illicit drugs only solve the problem superficially, it's psychological.

Also, according to the psych, the majority of women suffer from lack of libido, and in most cases they are prepared to compromise to some extent to make the marriage work (ie. engage in sex with their spouses even though they don't particularly feel like it). My wife is not prepared to compromise. In her words, she cannot face "being raped" by me, that is how strong her feelings are against sex right now. Now that's bad mojo, If you are committed, I would simply suck it up (sic) until she's interested.

..I believe it is basically papering over the problem. It indeed is.

So far, it looks like I get divorced. I must say, even though I do not like the Ecstasy idea, I'm leaning towards it, because I do not want to lose this woman. We fit together in all other areas of our lives and we both love each other. I am at a total loss as to what to do further to prevent us seperating - it's tearing me apart. Seriously, if you tell a woman that you will willingly abstain from sex for her, how is that not conducive to willing intimacy?

I would welcome any advice on the matter. Am I flogging a dead horse? Is there an avenue I have neglected to cover? It seems psychological - to use a bad manly analogy, like a football player who has no love for the game, but feels burdened by an strong obligation to play.