Why I may or may not be a christian.

[Jesse2]

I am a christian. I may be getting closer to a point of no longer being a christian. I am uncertain. I'll explain my reasons for being one.

When I would occasionally go to my grandfather with a problem, he would give advice in some form. Always with my grandfather was the notion that "Jesus is the answer." Coming from him, this was very powerful for me. He's passed away now and with his passing away this notion carries an even greater power and significance for me. I wish to show honor and respect to his memory.

More recently, I've had some emotional upheavals, and during those moments when I would dwell on my past mistakes and what I call 'falls into temptation', of which I have had many, I would become overwhelmed with my own mistakes - others would call these things "sin". I couldn't hack it. I couldn't forgive myself for f**king things up with my ex-girlfriend, for one. So I felt the desire to do what had always been told to me that I should do when thinking of my own 'sin'. I 'reached out' for the forgiveness offered me by Jesus Christ. I believed, because I needed to believe, that Jesus lifted from me the burden of these past mistakes. And afterwards, after much sobbing and other such things, I felt better. There's nothing necessarily supernatural here, and the experience could easily be explained via psychology or common sense.

I'm not looking for either side to 'convert' me. I'm not exactly sure why I'm choosing this forum as the place to be saying this. One thing I do know is this: The only thing I need to believe in order to be a christian is that Jesus Christ died for my sins.

I don't have to convert people.
I don't have to believe in hell or any afterlife.
I'm allowed to believe in dinosaurs.
I'm allowed to believe the bible is myth and fabrication.
etc... and so on...

I think many christians are duped into thinking they have to buy all the rest of the crap that often comes with christianity, like the 'young earth' creationism, or the idea that the bible is the divine and inspired word of God, or any of that catholic jazz: Original sin, the immaculate conception, the transubstantiation of wafers and wine and into body and blood of christ, etc...

I guess I just want to be honest.


Jesse

[Yahweh]

The only thing I need to believe in order to be a christian is that Jesus Christ died for my sins.
Plenty of people have died defending their country.

Plenty of people have died saving others.

Plenty of people have died innocently for no apparent reason.

Plenty of people have died for lost causes.

Plenty of people have died in the field of Law Enforcement.

Plenty of people have died because they couldnt get food.

Plenty of people have died for their own children.

Plenty of people have died giving birth to children.

Plenty of people have died in terroristic attack.

Plenty of people have died having been mistakenly imprisoned.

Plenty of people have died in the name of science and space exploration.

Plenty of people have died in POW and Concentration camps.

Plenty of people have died of natural causes.

If I ever had to, I'd die for my own wife.

Too many people look at this "died for our sins" thing and drag it entirely out of proportion. I'm not sure why Jesus is the most reveled martyr of our time, and the rest of those people I mentioned above are barely given a second thought...

[Jesse2]

I totally respect what you are saying. What I am referring to in this instance is a release from overwhelming guilt feelings. Thinking about what so many people have done for us... for me... and thinking about the others who have died... might actually make me feel more guilty. Maybe I should feel more guilty. You think?

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Jesse2
I totally respect what you are saying. What I am referring to in this instance is a release from overwhelming guilt feelings. Thinking about what so many people have done for us... for me... might actually make me feel more guilty. Maybe I should feel more guilty. You think?
No reason to feel guilty at all. I consider so many of those Catholic sins to be incredibly petty. And a lot of them are strangely centered around sex. For instance masturbation is as serious a sin as killing a person. No sex for pleasure. Sex should only be for procreation, man on top, woman on the bottom, the man should do all the work (this is where we get then name "Missionary style" from). Wow, those Catholics sure do know how to spoil a good time dont they (by threatening eternal damnation).

You cant stop yourself from having "dirty" thoughts. Its normal.

There is no reason you should feel guilty for indulging yourself in all life has to offer (as long as its legal, consentual, and responsible) . Although I'm an atheist, I'm willing to accept that I may be wrong, but if I'm right, I'll make the most out of what I got (and I wont feel guilty for a second because I make responsible decisions and still manage to have fun).

Guilt is an annoying little emotion. It tends to be temporary (unless you've done something terribly bad).

[Cleopatra]

I think that these things need time. You don't decide overnight what you are.

I strongly believe that religious faith depends on one's needs, experiences and social environment.I left church when I started practicing Law, before that, I have decided --after exhausting reading --that Jesus didn't exist and the world wasn't created by his father but I still attended the church.

Although my mom never took me to a synagogue, since my jewish grandmother died- a person that I adored- I go to the synagogue of Athens very often, I sit to a corner and do nothing. I stay for a while and then I leave.

I think that as long as you don't try to impose your Faith to anybody you have the right to feel as you wish. Time,your experiences and reading will determine whether you will stay a Christian or not.

Just a question. What did you have in your mind when you started this thread. Do you wish that people try to persuade you that you must not be a Christian or you just wanted to share your feelings?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Jesse2
I totally respect what you are saying. What I am referring to in this instance is a release from overwhelming guilt feelings. Thinking about what so many people have done for us... for me... and thinking about the others who have died... might actually make me feel more guilty. Maybe I should feel more guilty. You think?

Why we should feel guilty for the things people have done for us and not feel just grateful?

[calladus]

Originally posted by Jesse2
I totally respect what you are saying. What I am referring to in this instance is a release from overwhelming guilt feelings. Thinking about what so many people have done for us... for me... and thinking about the others who have died... might actually make me feel more guilty. Maybe I should feel more guilty. You think?

This struck a chord with me, Jesse - I call myself 'deconverted' from Christianity, a process that was long and fairly painful for me.

My beliefs were a dichotomy - on one hand I sincerely believed in my religion, prayed often, studied hard, and felt soothed, comforted, cared for by my church and my beliefs.

On the other hand, I was told that young earth creationism was true, that the bible was either 'just a guide' or 'literally true'. That miracles were commonplace and accepted by science - I had a hard time swallowing this, and it got worse as I learned more about science and the scientific method.

When I started questioning religions in general, and my own in particular, I felt bad. I REALLY wanted my religion to be able to easily fend off my questions. I loaded the dice, rooted for the champion, and still easily shot him down with questions.

I felt so guilty - I've read where someone said that it felt like spitting on your grandmother - yea, like that kind of guilty. From your post, I can't help but wonder if this is what you are feeling, and if it isn't what is keeping you in.

If guilt is the only thing keeping you in your religion, then I would suggest that you are on the edge of deconverting.

Unearned guilt is nothing more than a sort of 'emotional blackmail', a method of control. Personally, when I realized that it was not my fault that my religion couldn't stand up to a few questions, I no longer had a reason to feel guilty.

[triadboy]

You seem to be saying you believe in Jesus' life and that he 'died for your sins'. Yet the other stuff in the bible can be believed or not.

What are the 'sins' Jesus died for? Aren't they the sins imprinted on every baby born - by Adam and Eve commiting the first sin?

If you do the begatting and go back in history using the bible as your measuring stick - Adam and Eve were alive in ~4004BC. Obviously this is a load of crap. Adam and Eve are blatent myths. (Egypt and China were thriving in 6000BC)

Now - if there was no Adam, why do we need Jesus?

Once you investigate further - Jesus becomes historically slippery as well.

Step back from the bible and try to look at it again without faith-eyes.

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Jesse2
I totally respect what you are saying. What I am referring to in this instance is a release from overwhelming guilt feelings. Thinking about what so many people have done for us... for me... and thinking about the others who have died... might actually make me feel more guilty. Maybe I should feel more guilty. You think?

Guilt is the business of religion.

In my own case, I felt a wave of guilt/tension/stupidity release from me once I realized the bible is myth. There is no hell. There is no heaven. There is no god. There are no angels watching over you. There is no devil or demons.

We are just extremely fortunate, intelligent 'bacteria' living on the third planet from a sun located on the outskirts of the Milky Way Galaxy. There are billions of stars in this galaxy and there are billions of galaxies around us.

We don't have answers to all the questions, but assigning these unknown to 'God' is ridiculous...and yes, stupid.

The only way you will rid your guilt is study on your own. Read Asivmov's Guide to the Bible. Read Joseph Campbell. Steve Allen has a couple of easy reads on the bible. There is a red book called "The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read" Read that! Russell's book, "Why I'm not a Christian" is good. Just get out of the bible and look around.

[Jesse2]

Originally posted by Yahweh
Guilt is an annoying little emotion. It tends to be temporary (unless you've done something terribly bad). 'terribly bad' depends on the context and who is considering the act(s). In my own self-esteem, cheating on my girlfriend while pushing her out of my life was terribly bad especially because in retrospect she was such a great woman. And now I have nobody. Maybe this is just a pity party. I dunno. I was taught to feel a lot of guilt by my mother at a very early age.
Originally posted by Cleopatra
Just a question. What did you have in your mind when you started this thread. Do you wish that people try to persuade you that you must not be a Christian or you just wanted to share your feelings? Well, it's possible I'm looking for a way out. I don't know yet. I knew that most of of the responses would be angled away from christianity. I hoped I would'nt find any personal attacks. I've found no such attacks, which is good. When writing this, I suppose I just needed to get it off my chest, and I hate the idea of writing to myself. Maybe this is a process that takes time. My own christian belief was born out of a certain type of fear. A fear that my own guilt would overwhelm me. Another reason I wanted to share it is out of a sense of honesty. I want to make sure people know exactly where I am coming from. Originally posted by Cleopatra
Why we should feel guilty for the things people have done for us and not feel just grateful? You're right. We should just be grateful (for some). I wonder how best I could express my gratitude (for those who specifically died for my freedoms and my country) I am especially grateful towards those who died in certain American wars such as World War II.
Originally posted by triadboy
In my own case, I felt a wave of guilt/tension/stupidity release from me once I realized the bible is myth. There is no hell. There is no heaven. There is no god. There are no angels watching over you. There is no devil or demons. In about the eighth grade I got fed up with christianity. I had been going to a school called Trinity Lutheran since the first grade, and christianity just didn't make sense. I had a major lsd trip (only time ever taking lsd) when I was 17, and that's when I started getting into western and eastern philosophy. I only became a christian recently, when becomming overwhelmed with my own guilt over my own actions.
Originally posted by triadboy
The only way you will rid your guilt is study on your own. Read Asivmov's Guide to the Bible. Read Joseph Campbell. Steve Allen has a couple of easy reads on the bible. There is a red book called "The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read" Read that! Russell's book, "Why I'm not a Christian" is good. Just get out of the bible and look around. Thanks for the references. Another book I've only paged through is Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason" Which I was told was a book of refutations of the bible.

I thank everyone thusfar with responding with these insights.

[Dymanic]

The rules covering 'disconversion' from Christianity are unclear.

The sole requirement for 'becoming a Christian' is believing bla bla bla, but nothing is said about what margin of doubt may be tolerated. Is the human mind capable of absolute, total belief in anything? Like what we percieve, what we believe is a composite of outputs from numerous cognitive sub-processes over which we have (at best) limited control. If even one of these sub-processes rings in with a confidence rating of less than one hundred percent, that blemish is enough to pull the totality of 'what we believe' down below 'completely'. Is 'being a Christian' (or an atheist) really something you do, or something that just sort of happens to you?

Is 'doubt' is a sin? Evidently so, and one serious enough to carry a heavy penalty -- eternal damnation, despite whatever good things one may have done, or evil things abstained from.

Might one not be forgiven for having doubt? But how can that work if it prevents one from meeting the minimal requirement necessary to qualify for salvation: believing bla bla bla? In order to get forgiven for doubting, wouldn't it one have to first quit doubting, meaning that one no longer needed forgiveness for it? (Or maybe it's that you have to beat that one on your own, but as a bonus you get forgiveness for all the rest of the stuff thrown in?)

If you're just 'pretty sure', is that good enough? How about 'willing to consider it'? If you used to believe completely, but later quit believing, does that mean you are no longer saved? So salvation is subject to flickering on and off dependent upon your belief? Or maybe having once met the belief requirement, you're on the bus for keeps (unless of course you ever commit the one unforgivable sin of blasphemy against the holy ghost, whatever that means). Or are there degrees of salvation that rise and fall along with your belief level?

I never could work that stuff out, but here's something I feel pretty sure of: whenever I see someone who is real enthusiastic about 'being a Christian', who feels a need to share it at every opportunity, who has the bumper stickers and the T-shirts and the coffee mugs -- that's a person who is tormented by doubt. His own. The TV evangelist who stomps up and down across the stage thumping that bible and gesticulating theatrically -- his real audience is himself. His performance is for the benefit of that part of him that says the whole thing is bull (well, ok so it might be partly for the money and recognition, too).

On the other hand, there are a lot of Christians I admire a great deal, and it may have something to do with their having come to terms with their own doubts. (Not saying they don't have doubts, just that they accept that as part of being human. Makes them a lot easier to get along with.) These are the ones who don't worry a lot about saving anybody, but just quietly go about the business of living life with compassion and respect for others; genuinely interested in others, and willing to work to make a difference.

[evildave]

Use guilt. Don't wallow in it.

Try to improve yourself in some way that will make the events that make you feel guilty impossible.

Learn.

Or pretend you don't need to learn, and you're "forgiven" for not learning, and rely on this "forgivenness" being delivered in regular installments in the future.

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by Jesse2
The only thing I need to believe in order to be a christian is that Jesus Christ died for my sins.

Not quite. You also need to believe that you have sins that require dying for, and that there is reason why somebody's death would matter. You have to think that forgiviness comes from an supernatural source, which of course implies that the criminal nature of your sins is also supernatural.

It is possible to decide that the ordinary mistakes all humans make are just that, mistakes, that it is inevitable that we will make mistakes and therefore it is forgivable, that the solution to making mistakes is to learn from them and try harder next time.

[Jesse2]

Originally posted by Dymanic
The rules covering 'disconversion' from Christianity are unclear.
Well, thanks for pointing out the lack of logic in this whole belief system. I suppose I needed some kind of belief to lean on to be able to forgive myself for my mistakes. Perhaps this leaning is only temporary and my doubt can, now that I'm stronger, come back to the foreground. I am more comfortable with doubt now than before.

I suppose when I believe in Jesus, I'm turning off that part of my mind which wishes to doubt the whole thing. Perhaps I've been using it as a kind of 'mental crutch' to get me through a time when I'm being overwhelmed with thoughts of my own past mistakes. The overwhelming aspect is gone.

[Jesse2]

Originally posted by Yahzi
Not quite. You also need to believe that you have sins that require dying for, and that there is reason why somebody's death would matter. You have to think that forgiviness comes from an supernatural source, which of course implies that the criminal nature of your sins is also supernatural.

It is possible to decide that the ordinary mistakes all humans make are just that, mistakes, that it is inevitable that we will make mistakes and therefore it is forgivable, that the solution to making mistakes is to learn from them and try harder next time. You're right, of course. I'm not going to get too deep into this, but there recently came a time, during an emotional crisis brought about by losing my girlfriend and my job around the same time. Some people turn to alcohol or drugs in sitautions like this. In fact, I first turned to marijuana. Then, during and after another episode of sorts, I turned to Jesus.

[calladus]

Jessie,
You called religion a 'mental crutch', and that you were trying to turn to something. Drugs, then Jesus. You've had problems - your girlfriend, your job. You've had a bad shot of life.

You are not alone - many of us have had bad (or nightmare-like) life altering events. You CAN get through this. Maybe you need some friends, or a little help. Maybe you need some trained help - I dunno. I'm just a guy, not a psychologist, ya know?

I do know that if you don't get what you need, then it doesn't matter who you turn to - religion or non. It won't help you feel better. Anaesthesia, in the form of drugs or religion, won't help if your basic need is still there.

Maybe you need someone to say this - or maybe I'm completely off base, but I think you would benefit from counseling. A non secular counselor would be good, but I don't think it matters if it comes from a religious person, as long as that person has the training in psychology to back 'em up, and can help you out without putting a religious price tag on it.

Just my $0.02 - and my concern.

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by Jesse2
during an emotional crisis
Everybody needs a break from reality once in a while. I don't mind whatever crazy fantasy you believe in: as long as you know it's not real.

When I go into the bedroom with my wife, I'm convinced I'm the hottest thing since Richard Gere. But I don't think that the rest of the day.

[Jesse2]

Originally posted by calladus
Maybe you need someone to say this - or maybe I'm completely off base, but I think you would benefit from counseling. A non secular counselor would be good, but I don't think it matters if it comes from a religious person, as long as that person has the training in psychology to back 'em up, and can help you out without putting a religious price tag on it.
Thank you for your kind words. Also, it was astute of you to notice the correlation I made between religious beliefs and drugs/booze. I am seeking counseling already and I belong to a great support group. I think it's just a matter of time, perhaps only hours or days now, before I declare that I no longer need to believe in the divine power of Jesus' death and resurrection. In fact, I'm not sure why I haven't done that already.

[Roadtoad]

I'm there myself, Jesse. This ain't no easy road. There's potholes, and a few hairpin turns on this highway. Not to mention a few speed traps here and there that make things interesting.

I'm fighting my way through this, and dealing with family members who are absolutely aghast that I'm even DARING to question Scripture. My answer is: How can I NOT question Scripture? If you have any intellectual honesty, how can you simply, blindly, accept the Book without question. That's not faith, that's idiocy!

I don't have the answer you're looking for. You've got to find that one yourself. But you've been given some pretty good reading to go through. (Steve Allen's pieces are actually quite good, particularly since they're from a layman's point of view.) Go for it.

[nightwind]

I know that their is no real evidence of a God or an afterlife. And if you think about it, beliefs such as this are beyond bizarre.

However, I still feel that I need to believe, just in case. :confused:

[jj]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I think that these things need time. You don't decide overnight what you are.

I strongly believe that religious faith depends on one's needs, experiences and social environment.I left church when I started practicing Law, before that, I have decided --after exhausting reading --that Jesus didn't exist and the world wasn't created by his father but I still attended the church.


Cleo, did you ever examine the influence of Constatine on the
"church", the effects on "scripture", etc?

It's very, um, interesting...

[Jesse2]

Originally posted by jj
Cleo, did you ever examine the influence of Constatine on the
"church", the effects on "scripture", etc?
In a nutshell, what were these effects?