"I Helped The U.S. Army Plan The 9/11 Attacks"

[Dog Town]

Never heard this one! Anyone else?
From ATS, sounds suspect in sooo many ways.

Email Newsletter Special Feature
May 22, 2007
By ATS Member, Timothy S. McNiven

C-Battery 2/81st FA, US Army 1975-76 Where are you?

In 1976 Congress commissioned a plan to determine how terrorists could attack the World Trade Center under the guise of an "airport security" study. The theoretical (at the time) plan specified how the towers might be felled using commercial aircraft hijacked with nothing more than "box cutters." The exercise, run by the Pentagon and the Central Intelligence Agency, made use of specialists in C-Baterry 2/81st Field Artillery, U.S. Army stationed in Strassburg, Germany. I was one such specialist, I participated in these events was and then went on to work for Army Intelligence and the Department of Defense.

My story is one of frustration, harassment, stress, and desperation as I try to communicate my ordeal to any who will listen.


http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread283741/pg1

[Unsecured Coins]

old news. he got talked about for a few weeks over at Woo World and then went the way of Crystal Pepsi

[JamesB]

Never heard this one! Anyone else?
From ATS, sounds suspect in sooo many ways.



http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread283741/pg1

That has been out there some time. It seems rather bogus. For starters, why would an artillery battery (which he can't even spell) be put in charge of something like this?

[Unsecured Coins]

the thing is, I was JUST asking about him yesterday at the SLC forums. Good to see that the NWO didn't beat him up too badly

[Unsecured Coins]

oh yeah, I just ran a check on the notary public that notarized his sworn statement. No NP by the name of Debbie Leigh Crofutt in the state of Washington.

[Brainster]

Heheh, now Cynthia McKinney is involved in the coverup?

In the Spring of 2002, Cynthia McKinney came on US National TV and cried out for US Government 9-11-01 prior knowledge information. Within days of her crying out for US Government 9-11-01 prior knowledge information I faxed to her Georgia and Washington, DC offices the information about the 1976 US Military Study to Improve US Air Travel Security and received No reply.

In August 2002 I once again faxed the 1976 US Military Study information to her Georgia and Washingto,DC Offices with a note that I would hand-deliver a copy, if that is what it took to get a reply. Her staff sent me a one-line political party reply; McKinney has 'refused' to have any contact with me at all; the US Defense Department Agent who sent her the US Government 9-11-01 prior knowledge information- she came on American National TV and cried out for; "why?"

You know how it is; if it's too wacky for McKinney, it is wacky indeed.

[Unsecured Coins]

whoops. no recollection of a 2/81 FA in germany either.

[Arus808]

sounds like another "Mike the EMT" kinda of thing, with a borderline Christophera quality. Definitely not one person to take seriously; just enjoy how many people buy into this insane statements and eat popcorn.

[Dog Town]

Yes this is Chritophera quality gibberish. I had not seen it till today. I come and go from the whack a mole, conspiracy sites. I did find this reply from Gottago quite telling.http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread283741/pg#pid3212679

Um, just a simple question.

I just read through the affidavit.

On page four, you mention that--during your work in Germany in 1976--you had predicted that Bill Clinton would be the president who would be "hamstringing" the next administration with an impending disaster. You say you even did an imitation of him as a teenager for your superiors, when he shook JFK's hand.

Well, the question is, how did you know that Bill Clinton would be president in 1976? And that he'd met with JFK and had his picture taken?

Are you also the world's foremost clairvoyant?

The last line says it all! Thanks for the input. I was sure it was hogwash, seems I was right. Along with the rest of the wack a mole players.

[Comsat Angel]

Specialist? If he was a gunner he'd specialise in stuff like ballistics, counter-battery tactics, munitions, etc. etc. Not in how to operate covertly and hijack aircraft. Why would the Pentagon import soldiers from Germany when they and the CIA have plenty of staff on the ground in the USA? If Congress authorised this exercise, won't there be an enormous paper trail to follow and exhibit?

Following in the footsteps of Mike the EMT and Lauro Chavez, I'd say.

[gumboot]

Yes, Gunners know all about ramming airliners into buildings... that's their primary area of expertise... :rolleyes:

-Gumboot

[Björn Toulouse]

(Dog Town beat me to it while I was opening a beer and thought I had already clicked "post", referring to the Clinton thing.)

[parky76]

Right. And I was warned not to go to the WTC during Sabbath services on Friday, 9-7-01.

[HeyLeroy]

If he really helped plan it in '76, he can tell us where the explosives were planted, right?

[StoneWT]

Pull string, go boom.

[WildCat]

oh yeah, I just ran a check on the notary public that notarized his sworn statement. No NP by the name of Debbie Leigh Crofutt in the state of Washington.
How did you check this?
whoops. no recollection of a 2/81 FA in germany either.
You checked records and found that there was no such artillery in Germany in 1975-76?

Just asking because I need to get this straight on another forum.

[fezzic]

Signs of the existence of the 2d BN 81st FA

Newsletter Commanders Update (http://sill-www.army.mil/famag/1976/JAN_FEB_1976/JAN_FEB_1976_PAGES_59_61.pdf)

Lists (Jan-Feb 1976 reference or edition)

LTC Robert N. Morrison
2d Battalion, 81st Field Artillery

This biography (http://www.ngb.army.mil/ngbgomo/library/bio/fletcher_je.htm) (National Guard Bureau)

BRIGADIER GENERAL JAMES E. FLETCHER

[he was 2LT then]
Mar 77 - Jan 78, Forward Observer, Battery C, 2nd Battalion, 81st Field Artillery, 8th Infantry Division (Mechanized) Idar-Oberstein, Republic of Germany

===============

I do find it hard to believe that a Field Artillery Battery would be the scene for a "think tank" operation even on an ad hoc basis.

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

There is plenty of evidence that at least the 81st FA Regiment existed.

The Institute of Heraldry's page on the 81st FA Regiment (http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/FA/81FieldArtilleryRegiment.htm)
Testing of the Pershing nuclear MRBM. (http://www.astronautix.com/sites/capllc16.htm) Interestingly, the C & D Batteries, 1/81st FA were involved in testing the Pershing in 1974, though in Cape Canaveral.
Ferris Barracks, Germany (http://www.ferrisbarracks.com/). Lists the 81st FA as having been stationed there. Doesn't list the year though.
56th FA BDE site (http://www.usarmygermany.com/units/FieldArtillery/USAREUR_56th%20FA%20Bde.htm). the 56th was part of 7th Army in Germany. It lists only the 1st BN/81st FA as having been in Germany. They fielded the Pershing MRBMs, which is consistent with the other link above.

I can't find much of anything at all on the 2/81st FA, aside from websites about this conspiracy theory.

They do have a Unit Page on Military.Com (http://unitpages.military.com/unitpages/unit.do?id=102230)with about 20 alumni listed, so I am sure the unit existed, and it does appear to have been in Germany.

Of course, none of this proves much of anything, other than that there was a 2nd BN, 81st FA in Germany. When I read the story, I didn't much doubt that such a unit existed. It still remains to be seen why they would yank a line battery from a field artillery unit to do a study on hijacking airplanes.

[Brainster]

Yeah, this guy will probably end up like Jesse MacBeth. I love the whole bit about how he must be a federal agent because otherwise Ashcroft would have had him arrested (probably slamming on the cuffs personally, if he didn't have to fly commercial).

In fact, it reads pretty much like a Nigerian scam letter. I would be wary of the claim about the Notary, though; that seal looks genuine and it's nothing to get a document notarized; all she's certifying is his signature.

[gumboot]

The simple fact is you just would not use artillery personnel for such a study. If you used military personnel at all (which I doubt), they'd be either engineers, or something like military intelligence, specialising in terrorism.

The very fact that he specifically mentions boxcutters calls BS to me. CTers do this all the time with their invented confessions - they always make their stories too closely fit the crime, an obvious sign that it was created after the fact.

-Gumboot

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

From the link I am with three decades in Services to the DoD. This is not the sentence structure of someone who is a native English speaker.

(NOTE: I can not attest to the computer safety of the following link) http://www.davidcorn.com/archives/2006/01/alito_the_enden.php has the same letter:

Title: 1976 military planners knew hijacked aircraft alone wouldn't bring down WTC quickly enough
Source: Awoken Research Group
URL Source: http://valis.cjb.cc/
Published: Jan 12, 2006
Author: ARG

Codename Grillfire
I am United States Defense Department Intelligence Operative "Grillfire" aka US Government Federal Agent Timothy S. McNiven; in 1976 I took part in a Democratic - Republican Political Party US Congressional Commissioned Military Study to Improve US Air Travel Security while stationed on Strassberg Kasern in Idar-Oberstein,W.Germany assigned to C-Battery 2/81st FA, US Army 1975-76. The purpose of the Study was to Identify Security Lapses and Submit Corrective Actions to the US Congress; on September 11,2001 the Security Lapses that were used to carry out the Attacks were the same ones that were submitted to the US Congress for Correcting "25 Years" before.
As I stated I was an Enlistedman in the Army durring this Study, so I am able to provide you with the information that Enlistedmen were given (I have been asked about information that was part of the Sargents and Officers Duties in the Study; this information will have to come from the Sargents and Officers who took part.) and my own personal activities durring the Study. There were about 100 People from my Unit, I am just one of the Enlistedmen who took part; so I can confirm that this Democratic - Republican Political Party US Congressional Commissioned Military Study took place, what Questions I and the others were asked when I was present and the Non-Resindable Orders that I was given to get this information to the American People if the World Trade Center Twin Towers was ever Attacked in the Manner in which we discussed in the Study.
I explain these Orders in my Affidavit that I gave for the RICO Lawsuit that was filed for Ellen Mariani against the Bush Administration in November 2003 as well as in my WWU Presentation Video.
The information that you need to take away with you is that the Democrats and the Republicans Knew that US Air Travel Security needed to be Improved in 1976 when They conducted this Study to do just that, Improve US Air Travel Security in 1976; They had sufficient information to Remedy the Identified and Known Security Lapses with the Corrective Actions that were sent to the US Congress; and that They had Billions of Dollars in US Tax Payer's Money and 25 Years to "Just Begin" to Implement the Security Upgrades and Improvements from Their Own Study to Improve US Air Travel Security. And, "After all, 25 Years is; a Quarter of a Century" and if the Democrats and Republicans couldnot Act upon Their #1 US Governmental Priority "National Security" in that amount of Time, It is "Not" an International Legal Reason for any Military Action let alone a Democratic - Republican Political Party 100 Year World War.
-------------
They had no way of predicting this attack eh?
The link in that http://valis.cjb.cc/ is now 404.
Earlier reference to McNiven here: http://www.arcticbeacon.com/articles/31-Jul-2005.html

[Unsecured Coins]

How did you check this?
I called the state of washington's information registry and there was no notary listed by that name on his affadavit


You checked records and found that there was no such artillery in Germany in 1975-76?

http://www.usarmygermany.com/Units/FieldArtillery/USAREUR_FieldArty%201.htm#1970s

I even e-mailed the guy who runs this site as well as asked a few military historians. I didn't get an answer from the historian folks yet but I should get something by tomorrow

[WildCat]

The very fact that he specifically mentions boxcutters calls BS to me.
Did they even make those plastic-handled ones in the 1970's?

[WildCat]

I called the state of washington's information registry and there was no notary listed by that name on his affadavit




http://www.usarmygermany.com/Units/FieldArtillery/USAREUR_FieldArty%201.htm#1970s

I even e-mailed the guy who runs this site as well as asked a few military historians. I didn't get an answer from the historian folks yet but I should get something by tomorrow
Thanks Sergeant! Let us know what you find out.

[GwionX]

Did they even make those plastic-handled ones in the 1970's?

Yeah, that is one thing that struck me as well. I looked around and-- Exacto did have the first patent on a plastic handled utility knife back in 1958.
They were not widely used.

This guy is a nut case though..IMNSHO

[Comsat Angel]

Who can't even spell "Sergeant" properly. Not to mention "during".

[Travis]

so I can confirm that this Democratic - Republican Political Party US Congressional Commissioned Military Study took place,

Who in the world would structure a sentence like that? Why include both party names? Why use a Field Artillery unit for this study? Why use a FA unit in Germany? Why would this unit hit upon using boxcutters when, in 1976, they still let you use and bring knives on board? Why would a study to improve airline safety in general have an actual specific target (that being the WTC) as part of the study? If the government used their plan to execute such a momentous crime why weren't these guys "eliminated" before they could reveal the plan publicly? This entire thing stinks of BS to the extreme.

[gumboot]

Who can't even spell "Sergeant" properly. Not to mention "during".


I noticed that...

The whole "I'm a US DoD Intelligence Operative with this cool codename and I was an enlisted man with an artillery unit, and I can't spell 'sergeant'" thing just reeks of Truther BS to me.

-Gumboot

[stilicho]

Did they even make those plastic-handled ones in the 1970's?
I remember using one in the last years of that decade on a summer job. Damn near cut one of my fingers to the bone too! And that finger I managed to hit with a ten-pound sledge the same summer.

That hand looked like it belonged to a cricket player by the time I went back to college.

[stilicho]

I noticed that...

The whole "I'm a US DoD Intelligence Operative with this cool codename and I was an enlisted man with an artillery unit, and I can't spell 'sergeant'" thing just reeks of Truther BS to me.

-Gumboot
Not to mention, if it was a "Democratic Republican Political Party" Congressional study it ought to be easy enough to identify. I wonder what committee commissioned it? This "specialist" ought to at least be able to tell us who the committee chairman was.

[stilicho]

Yeah, this guy will probably end up like Jesse MacBeth. I love the whole bit about how he must be a federal agent because otherwise Ashcroft would have had him arrested (probably slamming on the cuffs personally, if he didn't have to fly commercial).

In fact, it reads pretty much like a Nigerian scam letter. I would be wary of the claim about the Notary, though; that seal looks genuine and it's nothing to get a document notarized; all she's certifying is his signature.
Not just that, Brainster, but it's no big deal (at least in Canada) to obtain the office of Commissioner of Oaths--the same thing as a Notary Public:

http://www.justice.gov.ab.ca/official/commisioner.aspx?id=1534

The first person I ever met who I knew was a Commissioner of Oaths was a retail clerk with purple hair and pierced eyebrows.

[gumboot]

What does a Notary Public do?

-Gumboot

[Comsat Angel]

I raised the issue of this unit over on the Yahoo ToE group, and they confirmed that it actually existed, and was in Germany. However, there was no location called "Strassburg" in West Germany. The nearest is Straussberg - which was in East Germany, or Straussberg Kaserne. The unit seems to have been actually based at Idar-Oberstein. It was a tube artillery unit unlikely to have any knowledge of aircraft. It's parent formation, rather than sending members on sooper seekrit missions, it was heavily involved in testing Pershing missiles up until 1978. The general attitude of the ToE members, many of whom are ex-service personnel, was "BS big-time"

[jhunter1163]

The capitalization says "native German-speaker" to me. The content says "BS".

[Hans]

There was a 2/81 Armor but it was located at the US Armor School during that time frame.

C 1/81 was, as was stated above, a Pershing unit and I had some dealing with that unit in 1979-1982 when I was in the FA at Baumholder. It was I believe in New Ulm, Germany.

As the others said above - sounds bogus.

[Unsecured Coins]

There was a 2/81 Armor but it was located at the US Armor School during that time frame.

It's still there. I graduated from D co 2/81 Armor in 1998 over at Disney Barracks.

[WildCat]

It's still there. I graduated from D co 2/81 Armor in 1998 over at Disney Barracks.
I bet Disney Barracks was loads of fun. I hear that General Mickey Mouse and Lieutenant Goofy are big jokesters.

[Rob Lister]

What does a Notary Public do?

-Gumboot

the NP job is to ensure that the person signing the document is actually the person that's supposed to sign a document -- the document is signed in their presence and the notary countersigns it.

They are licensed by the state.

[Unsecured Coins]

I bet Disney Barracks was loads of fun. I hear that General Mickey Mouse and Lieutenant Goofy are big jokesters.


you should have heard the laughs from the troops after they said "6 mile run"

[Carnivore]

What does a Notary Public do?

-Gumboot

Administer oaths, notarize documents, perform weddings. Similar to a NZ JP but not involved with matters of criminal justice.

Humourist Dave Barry is one, as is male stripper, butler and handy man NakeDan.

With regards to Agent Grillfires affadavit, my brain hurts.

Clinton was in on it to hamstring poor Bush, but the DOD told young enlisted artilleryman McNiven that Clinton should never be elected to public office because of the crimes he commited in England? HM Government had not charged Clinton for his unspecified crimes because they thought he was going to be a used car salesman?! The army is aware of the 9/11 plot in 1976 and orders McNiven to blow the whistle if the WTC is attacked because the "security improvements" are not made? He implicates Jimmy Carter for not instituting the "security improvements"? His artillery battery had access to the "Stargate" remote viewing program? WTF?

Theres hardly a single sentence in there that isnt risible.

[Unsecured Coins]

Well, the unit is valid. I don't think I looked in ALL the places I should have, so I apologise if I was misleading. Got this from Walter Elkins this morning.


At first glance, I can verify that the unit existed: 2nd Battalion, 81st Field Artillery was located at Strassburg Kaserne in Idar Oberstein in 1976. The battalion was an M-109mm SP howitzer unit and was part of 8th Infantry Division Artillery.
Hope this helps.


Now all I gotta do is find out if Timmy was a part of the unit. This could take a while.

[Pope130]

You can add to the list of EASL (English as a second language) items:
Enlistedmen as one word, and, making a distinction between "Enlistedmen" and "Sargents". A US military man would refer to 'Junior Enlisted' or 'Privates' as distinct from 'NCOs' (rather than Sergeants).

Robert

[defaultdotxbe]

You can add to the list of EASL (English as a second language) items:

Robert

its just ESL, no A, unless its different in the UK or something (my grandmother is an ESL instructor at a local community college)

[Travis]

I would like to point out that Mr. McCallum did not get into Political trouble like the 'German woman Government Official' who compared Bush to Hitler and was forced to resign...

'German woman government official' has to be clunkiest way of phrasing that that can be devised. I'm with the others in that this has to be from someone not fluent in English Grammar.

And if she did make that kind of comparison she should have resigned.


...instead he was named the Canadian Government's Official Announcer for the Rolling Stones' Concert that was broadcast Live from Toronto to the US and Canadian Troops in Afghanistan and then was Promoted to Canadian Minister of Finance.

So was being the announcer for the Rolling Stones a reward or punishment?

[firecoins]

Why is Cynthia McKinney's corporation media supporter calling me 'racial slurs' that are as offensive as the 'N-word' comment made by Michael Richards?


I have trouble with this question. The N-Word is the offensive comment made by Richards. In fact offensive as the N-Word would have been enough. Only someone not from the US or possibly Canada would need to clarify how offensive the N-Word is.


Following the FBI leaving I contacted the ACLU who refused to provide me with legal services.


boo hoo

[Hellbound]

First, let me make clear that I have no doubt this person is a fake.

That being said, the ESL hints don't mean they couldn't have been in the U.S. Army. You don't have to be a U.S. Citizen to serve, and service is one way to get your citizenship quicker.

Again, though, service members who are not citizens generally don't have high securoty clearances, or work on top secret black ops.

:D

[Unsecured Coins]

First, let me make clear that I have no doubt this person is a fake.

That being said, the ESL hints don't mean they couldn't have been in the U.S. Army. You don't have to be a U.S. Citizen to serve, and service is one way to get your citizenship quicker.

Again, though, service members who are not citizens generally don't have high securoty clearances, or work on top secret black ops.

You're right about the citizenship stuff, but you have to have at least filed for it before you can go in. I'd have to do some looking to see what the standards were in the 1970's. His SSN number he provided does go back to a washington state issued number, but right now I don't have the resources to get any info on that. If I can get someone on the phone from Veteran's Affairs it'd make my life alot easier as well.

[SkepticGuy]

We initially thought this story was interesting, and would likely spark productive conversations... which it has.

The opening post of this story has been refined to include:
Topic Update
ATS Members have discovered previously unpublished information that places the credibility of this story in serious doubt.
"ID Badge" Discovery (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread283741/pg3#pid3213264)
ID Badge & Photo Compare (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread283741/pg4#pid3213372)
ID Badge Bogus Barcode (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread283741/pg5#pid3213535)
We have not yet heard from the author.

That horribly bogus "ID badge" is not directly linked anywhere in his material, however, we discovered it being used in a few old pages from other domains via the Google Cache... so clearly, he was using it at one point to buttress his story.

The author agree to be active in the thread and respond to member questions. However, he's yet to show up or respond to my emails.

We believe this may be the first deliberately hoaxed 9/11 conspiracy story (other than simply bad theories or ideas based on flawed interpretations of "evidence"), and represents the standard progression of the evolution of large-scale "conspiracy" topics. For example, hoaxing is regularly rampant in the "UFO field".

[Eckolaker]

Regardless of your view's. I would not trust anything off of abovetopsecret.com.

[SkepticGuy]

Regardless of your view's. I would not trust anything off of abovetopsecret.com.
You don't "trust" that ATS members discovered concrete proof of a "conspiracy theory" hoax, where others like Alex Jones swallowed this story with gusto?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Dog Town]

You don't "trust" that ATS members discovered concrete proof of a "conspiracy theory" hoax, where others like Alex Jones swallowed this story with gusto?

:confused: :confused: :confused:


Are you Skepticoverlord?

[GwionX]

Alex Jones will swallow anything with "gusto" if it will tie into his agenda.

And "Mike the EMT" was a hoax as well..Before this softball of a "shocking tale"

[chipmunk stew]

We initially thought this story was interesting, and would likely spark productive conversations... which it has.

The opening post of this story has been refined to include:
Topic Update
ATS Members have discovered previously unpublished information that places the credibility of this story in serious doubt.
"ID Badge" Discovery (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread283741/pg3#pid3213264)
ID Badge & Photo Compare (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread283741/pg4#pid3213372)
ID Badge Bogus Barcode (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread283741/pg5#pid3213535)
We have not yet heard from the author.

That horribly bogus "ID badge" is not directly linked anywhere in his material, however, we discovered it being used in a few old pages from other domains via the Google Cache... so clearly, he was using it at one point to buttress his story.

The author agree to be active in the thread and respond to member questions. However, he's yet to show up or respond to my emails.

We believe this may be the first deliberately hoaxed 9/11 conspiracy story (other than simply bad theories or ideas based on flawed interpretations of "evidence"), and represents the standard progression of the evolution of large-scale "conspiracy" topics. For example, hoaxing is regularly rampant in the "UFO field".
That's pretty damning.

Without forcing me to dig through the whole thread, how in the hell did someone find that Woodstock guy's picture?

The Lauro Chavez hoax was deliberate. I'll dig up our deconstruction of it if you like. EDIT: linky (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=64837)

[SkepticGuy]

Are you Skepticoverlord?
Yes indeed. I am the one and only friendly neighborhood skeptical conspiracy theorist. ;)

[Pardalis]

Good work Skeptic Guy.

[Dog Town]

Yes indeed. I am the one and only friendly neighborhood skeptical conspiracy theorist. ;)

No you are another version of Do Over Dylan. You make money from your little den of CT loons. You try to keep the den quiet, you ban dissenters and erase posts. Nice to see you in the light of day. You tried to keep this little lie going as long as you could. DISGUSTING!

[SkepticGuy]

Without forcing me to dig through the whole thread, how in the hell did someone find that Woodstock guy's picture?

The guys website doesn't have any protection against directory browsing:
http://www.codenamegrillfire.com/images/

There are a few images in the directory not used in his material.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Regardless of your view's. I would not trust anything off of abovetopsecret.com.
Don't be too fast with a sweeping condemnation; I've referred to this thread several times in the past: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pentagon_757_plane_evidence.html

[SkepticGuy]

Good work Skeptic Guy.
My only part in this was in presenting the story to our members. I was certain they would uncover any issues if issues were to be found. Thank them.


No you are another version of Do Over Dylan.
I'm not sure I know what that is? :confused:

You make money from your little den of CT loons.
Enough to keep the lights on, we get a lot of traffic.

you ban dissenters and erase posts.
Sounds like maybe you had an unfavorable experience. For that I'm sorry. The only people we ban are those unable to participate in a civilized and polite way (we don't have many "Truthers" it seems). The only posts we erase are those from people who are unable to participate in a civilized and polite way. The site isn't for everyone.

You tried to keep this little lie going as long as you could. DISGUSTING!
This person's story has been a (small) part of 9/11 conspiracy mythos for over three years, and supported/discussed by several of the "big names" in "Conspiracy Profiteering." In less than seven hours, our members discovered irrefutable evidence of fabrication. I'm not seeing your point.

[jaydeehess]

It strikes me that this guy( refering to the OP) sounds a bit like Phil Schneider who supposedly fought the aliens at Dulce Base. I would lay even odds on a small bet that this new loon has taken his inspiration from Schneider's ravings.

[Dog Town]

@Skepguy

You defended that story till you could no longer. Now you come over here to pat your den on the back. You are dishonest at best! I have seen your work over there, it is shameful./derail


ETA: I would love to see you, try and ply your wares here!

[Pardalis]

@Skepguy

You defended that story till you could no longer. Now you come over here to pat your den on the back. You are dishonest at best! I have seen your work over there, it is shameful./derail

To be fair, SkepticGuy may have a penchant for conspiracy theories, he may want them to be true, but at least he's honest enough to admit when the evidence shows that there is none.

Twoofers never do that.

[SkepticGuy]

You defended that story till you could no longer.
You're wrong.
I only have seven posts in that thread... the first was to confirm that site admin/owners have no "editorial opinion" on the submission... the second was to congratulate the member who discovered the fake ID badge.

We refined the opening post with all the solid hoax evidence before the submission was 10 hours old.

[Dog Town]

To be fair, SkepticGuy may have a penchant for conspiracy theories, he may want them to be true, but at least he's honest enough to admit when the evidence shows that there is none.

Twoofers never do that.

He is only doing it to claim, they proved "the first hoax" uncovered! BS!
He e-mailed it to all his members, and tried to keep it alive. He is another Do Over! Enough, i have a meeting to attend.


Have a nice day,

DT

[chipmunk stew]

The guys website doesn't have any protection against directory browsing:
http://www.codenamegrillfire.com/images/

There are a few images in the directory not used in his material.
Geez. All that effort to secure the front door and he leaves the back window open.

You say the folks at ATS consider this perhaps the first deliberate 9/11 conspiracy hoax. Do you mean first initiated or first discovered?

What is your view of the Lauro Chavez story (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=64837)?

[SkepticGuy]

he may want them to be true,

I would like nothing more than to see all the conspiracies be proven false.

[SkepticGuy]

What is your view of the Lauro Chavez story (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=64837)?
Honestly, I've not looked into it much (most of my time is spent running the community, not participating). The evidence for fabrication of aspects of the discharge papers is compelling.

I can only find one thread on ATS where Lauro Chavez is mentioned:9-11 Truth Movement or 9-11 Cult? (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread230814/pg1), and it's not very favorable. So I would imagine our members didn't think much of him from the beginning.

[Eckolaker]

Don't be too fast with a sweeping condemnation; I've referred to this thread several times in the past: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pentagon_757_plane_evidence.html

I have seen those same images used to support/debunk 9/11 theories since 02'. Same pictures, different write-up. Specifically the wheel hub images, engine flanges, etc.

[firecoins]

I would like nothing more than to see all the conspiracies be proven false.
so look at the facts and they will.

[Alzke]

It's interesting how "fakes" like this seem to get attention while more interesting and believable stories like this seem to fly under the radar...


"What I saw at certain moments and in certain places...is very frightening, I don't know who to put it in words, what I saw leads me to the terrible conclusion that there was foreknowledge of what was going to happen. The precautions that were taken to save certain things that the authorities there considered irreplaceable or invaluable. For example, certain things were missing that could only have been removed with a truck, yet after the first plane hit one of the towers, everything in manhattan collapsed and no one could have gotten near the towers to do that."

Kurt Sonnenfeld, (former) Federal Emergency Management Agency videographer


hxxp://xxx.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5550777,00.html

[Mr. Skinny]

It's interesting how "fakes" like this seem to get attention while more interesting and believable stories like this seem to fly under the radar...


"What I saw at certain moments and in certain places...is very frightening, I don't know who to put it in words, what I saw leads me to the terrible conclusion that there was foreknowledge of what was going to happen. The precautions that were taken to save certain things that the authorities there considered irreplaceable or invaluable. For example, certain things were missing that could only have been removed with a truck, yet after the first plane hit one of the towers, everything in manhattan collapsed and no one could have gotten near the towers to do that."

Kurt Sonnenfeld, (former) Federal Emergency Management Agency videographer


hxxp://xxx.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5550777,00.html
Looks like it hit the radar at 1253 hrs DST here at the JREF Conspiracy Theories subfourm.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=82923


Oh, welcome to the forum, Alzke.

[gumboot]

Fabricating evidence certainly isn't new to the "Truth Movement". There's the Chavez thing, Mike the EMT, not to mention countless videos which have had explosions added.

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

It's interesting how "fakes" like this seem to get attention while more interesting and believable stories like this seem to fly under the radar...


"What I saw at certain moments and in certain places...is very frightening, I don't know who to put it in words, what I saw leads me to the terrible conclusion that there was foreknowledge of what was going to happen. The precautions that were taken to save certain things that the authorities there considered irreplaceable or invaluable. For example, certain things were missing that could only have been removed with a truck, yet after the first plane hit one of the towers, everything in manhattan collapsed and no one could have gotten near the towers to do that."

Kurt Sonnenfeld, (former) Federal Emergency Management Agency videographer


hxxp://xxx.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5550777,00.html



I can't believe anyone would be stupid enough to actually believe any of this. A FEMA videographer simply would have no idea what should or shouldn't be in the rubble of WTC1, 2, and 7. It's somewhat hilarious that he honestly thinks anyone would be fooled into thinking he would have any idea.

-Gumboot

[beachnut]

I would like nothing more than to see all the conspiracies be proven false.
There are zero 9/11 truth movement conclusions that are true. I expect education can help people see there are zero facts and evidence behind the insinuations of the 9/11 truth movement. Have you found the ability for truth movement leaders, experts, and followers to use logic, is nil?

Which 9/11 CT do you believe? And why? What facts and evidence back it up?

[SkepticGuy]

There are zero 9/11 truth movement conclusions that are true.
"9/11 Truth" is rarely about "conspiracy theory" and most often about a venue for angry activism in search of a reason to be angry. And lately, a backdrop for conspiracy profiteering.


Which 9/11 CT do you believe? And why? What facts and evidence back it up?
I don't think we need to travel down this confrontational dead-end side street again. ;)

I popped in to this thread to provide an update that seems to have been overlooked. In some conspiracy circles, "truth" means reality... no matter what happens to pet theories.

[hellaeon]

You have to wonder how many times a ridiculous lie and load of garbage can be posted by the cult leaders and those reading dont kind of click and start sifting the bs in it? I mean come on...how many of these 'smoking guns' is there? Are the readers who cling on smokey after smokey that desperate?
EVERY SINGLE ONE has faded into nothingness. So if these big massive revelations dont do anything and fade away, what the RULE 8 are you truthers waiting for? Face it, you got nothing. NOTHING!

[hellaeon]

I would like nothing more than to see all the conspiracies be proven false.


I take it your not sick to death of smoking gun after smoking gun after smoking gun just fading into the distant junk heap of your evidence?

I mean come on...what happened to Mike of EMT? The blueprints? this bloke? dont you ever step back and think about why these massive revelations just fade away?

Man, stop doing this to yourself. If you want complete tabloid stuff read 'Thats life'

[Skibum]

You have to wonder how many times a ridiculous lie and load of garbage can be posted by the cult leaders and those reading dont kind of click and start sifting the bs in it? I mean come on...how many of these 'smoking guns' is there? Are the readers who cling on smokey after smokey that desperate?
EVERY SINGLE ONE has faded into nothingness. So if these big massive revelations dont do anything and fade away, what the RULE 8 are you truthers waiting for? Face it, you got nothing. NOTHING!

Honestly, I wouldn't classify SepticGuy as truther. I could be wrong, but I just haven't seen it in the years iIve been frequenting his site.

[SkepticGuy]

I take it your not sick to death of smoking gun after smoking gun after smoking gun just fading into the distant junk heap of your evidence?
Uh... it ain't my evidence.

Please don't mistake me for a "Truther." While I've been an intense student of conspiracy theories for a long time, I'm certainly not in the "Truth Movement."

I'm just as concerned with disproving bogus conspiracy theories as most of the participants in this forum (except for those who derive entertainment value from the practice). However, I'm also equally concerned with increasing awareness of theories that have merit, and promoting them via intelligent debate.

[Slayhamlet]

It's interesting how "fakes" like this seem to get attention while more interesting and believable stories like this seem to fly under the radar...


"What I saw at certain moments and in certain places...is very frightening, I don't know who to put it in words, what I saw leads me to the terrible conclusion that there was foreknowledge of what was going to happen. The precautions that were taken to save certain things that the authorities there considered irreplaceable or invaluable. For example, certain things were missing that could only have been removed with a truck, yet after the first plane hit one of the towers, everything in manhattan collapsed and no one could have gotten near the towers to do that."

Kurt Sonnenfeld, (former) Federal Emergency Management Agency videographer


hxxp://xxx.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5550777,00.html

A guy seeking asylum from being tried for the possible murder of his wife? Not very convincing. Surely if he had compelling evidence he would have revealed it by now.

[hellaeon]

Uh... it ain't my evidence.

Please don't mistake me for a "Truther." While I've been an intense student of conspiracy theories for a long time, I'm certainly not in the "Truth Movement."

I'm just as concerned with disproving bogus conspiracy theories as most of the participants in this forum (except for those who derive entertainment value from the practice). However, I'm also equally concerned with increasing awareness of theories that have merit, and promoting them via intelligent debate.

* whoops *
My apologies, I should have written pile of the CT evidence, I know its certainly not yours and I definately agree your not on the same level as some of the idjits.

Cheers

[Dog Town]

I would like nothing more than to see all the conspiracies be proven false.

Yet... this is you, correct?
I know one thing... there is only one way to break through and reach "joe six pack", and that is to mimic consumer advertising.

If 9/11 conspiracies were a product, how would we brand it?

Once we have a brand, how do we communicate it?

And once we communicate and have awareness, how do we "sell it"?

And these are the things I can help with.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread262290/pg1

Pfft...
I got more, but this says it all! This guy is a sham. No more, will I derail, or waste time on this person, I swear.

[uk_dave]

A guy seeking asylum from being tried for the possible murder of his wife? Not very convincing. Surely if he had compelling evidence he would have revealed it by now.

Of course not! It makes perfect sense to keep quiet for six years about your knowledge of 'strange goings on' on 9/11. You never know when that sort of information might come in handy. When claiming political asylum, for example..... ;)

[stilicho]

What does a Notary Public do?

-Gumboot
If you have Commissioners of Oaths in NZ as we have in Canada, they do the same thing. And you would have to interview the Commissioner in court action to determine anything evidentiary about the proceedings. Commissioners of Oaths are often summoned by estate executors here but not as often for criminal proceedings.


My point is that it doesn't take much to become one and they would have to supply their own credentials in case anything went to court over their authorisations. It doesn't surprise me that one couldn't find the Notary Public since that office has an expiration date.

[gumboot]

It looks like a Notary Public is essentially the same as a Justice of the Peace in New Zealand, which as you say, is no big deal at all.

Every Citizen's Advice Bureau has set days that local JPs attend, and they're most often used for certifying photocopies as genuine for things like birth certificates, CVs, etc.

-Gumboot

[chipmunk stew]

Yet... this is you, correct?


Pfft...
I got more, but this says it all! This guy is a sham. No more, will I derail, or waste time on this person, I swear.
Hmmm...

SkepticGuy, what is it that you found "impressive" about NY 9/11 Truth?
I had an opportunity (finally) to attend a meeting of the local 9/11 Truth chapter here in New York, NY 9|11 Truth (http://www.ny911truth.org/), with whom I've been impressed.
These guys are "impressive"?
5004042232637229146

[SkepticGuy]

SkepticGuy, what is it that you found "impressive" about NY 9/11 Truth?

-bleh-
That was before the local political mayhem... and it seems the usual suspects of odd theories were either not in attendance, or quiet for the meeting.

When I suggested that the "Truth Movement" should gain distance from the extreme theories, focus on a handful of "cocktail party safe" issues, eliminate the angry activist rhetoric, and find a way to communicate like "mainstream media" there was a room full of nodding heads. This was the source of my positive impression. As we now know, none of this has been embraced.

I've long since communicated to the "leaders" that we're not interested given the existing state of affairs.


Yet... this is you, correct?
Yes... that's me. Someone needed to try and improve the state of affairs. What's wrong with trying to inspire a level of critical thought?

[Pardalis]

What do you mean by "the state of affairs"?

[SkepticGuy]

What do you mean by "the state of affairs"?
Jeezuz.... that's a loaded question.

There's a broad spectrum of issues from poor research on key "theories" to political infighting to downright churlishness that are tearing apart the so called "Truth Movement." I thought it was rather obvious to those who participate here.

[Pardalis]

Oh, OK, you mean the state of affairs in the Truth Movement.

Why would you want to improve what's clearly going nowhere?

[SkepticGuy]

Why would you want to improve what's clearly going nowhere?
It's not just me. There are several dozen (if not more) people who are members of ATS who are deeply interested in critical examination of 9/11-related conspiracies. The angry rhetoric, poor research, sensationalist ideas, and thuggish behavior we experienced from "truthers" sent our members down this path of considering how things could be improved. But that was a few months ago.

[jaydeehess]

-bleh-
When I suggested that the "Truth Movement" should gain distance from the extreme theories, focus on a handful of "cocktail party safe" issues, eliminate the angry activist rhetoric, and find a way to communicate like "mainstream media" there was a room full of nodding heads. This was the source of my positive impression. As we now know, none of this has been embraced.



Taking a chance, I made suggestions to "Pilots for 911 Truth" as to ways that they could get their message out to the public and thereby put pressure on gov't agencies to look into their questions about Flight 77.

I suggested writing up a detailed paper and submitting it to mainstream magazines such as "Aviation Week and Space Technology", Scientific American" , or even "Time" etc. I suggested that they not have any suggestion of wrong doing by anyone in that paper and simply focus on the idea that the FDR data does not match the supposed flight path.

JDX, Rob Balsamo himself, called the suggestion down. They were absolutly not interested, choosing instead to continue the course they have been taking, that of demanding answers, in basically cold calls to the NTSB, of including suggestions, implications or outright accusations of wrongdoing by the NTSB or others and of actual threats (including death threats) to posters on his forum who dare to question his work.

There seems to be little desire for reasoned discussion in many CT circles.

[JamesB]

Wow, I just got around reading this guy's website, he is a whole 'nother level of moonbat. He is just up the road here in Bellingham too. The guy is barely literate, I think he set a record for the most different ways of spelling "kaserne". He also has a habit of just randomnly capitalizing words. Bizarre.

[hellaeon]

-bleh-
That was before the local political mayhem... and it seems the usual suspects of odd theories were either not in attendance, or quiet for the meeting.

When I suggested that the "Truth Movement" should gain distance from the extreme theories, focus on a handful of "cocktail party safe" issues, eliminate the angry activist rhetoric, and find a way to communicate like "mainstream media" there was a room full of nodding heads. This was the source of my positive impression. As we now know, none of this has been embraced.

I've long since communicated to the "leaders" that we're not interested given the existing state of affairs.





So you want to Market the theories better?

So really it about marketing the same ol 'asking questions and demanding answers' of which you either wont understand or wont accept.

Marketing truth? Marketing the same silly accusations and invalid calculations? Who do you think will suddenly listen? Is that what your about?
How does having more people 'believe' something make it more truthful?

Your non truthyness is hard to see...


Wow, I just got around reading this guy's website, he is a whole 'nother level of moonbat. He is just up the road here in Bellingham too. The guy is barely literate, I think he set a record for the most different ways of spelling "kaserne". He also has a habit of just randomnly capitalizing words. Bizarre.


I swear I can feel braincells jumping ship as I read....

[SkepticGuy]

Marketing truth? Marketing the same silly accusations and invalid calculations?

You're jumping to a broad range of conclusions based on a very limited exposure to my posting history.

No... silly accusations and invalid calculations are not wanted, ever.

I've constantly, repeatedly, rehashed the simple statement over, and over, and over again... "9/11 Truthers" (or "twoofers") and "conspiracy theorists" (or CTers) are two different things. One seeks to prove an agenda, the other seeks answers. One prefers angry activism, the other research. One needs to blame someone, the other needs resolution.

There were tidbits of interesting conspiracy angles prior to "9/11 Truth" splashing onto the scene with great fanfare and furious rhetoric. Those tidbits are long lost in the chaos of seething zealotry and fractured pandemonium that gave birth to dozens of Profiteering mongrels.

[Dog Town]

You're jumping to a broad range of conclusions based on a very limited exposure to my posting history.

<snip>

There were tidbits of interesting conspiracy angles prior to "9/11 Truth" splashing onto the scene with great fanfare and furious rhetoric. Those tidbits are long lost in the chaos of seething zealotry and fractured pandemonium that gave birth to dozens of Profiteering mongrels.

I know I said no more, but this profiteering chap bugs me! All the quotes of Skep, are from Jan,2007.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread262290/pg2
Skepti@ATS
So I and many old-fart conspiracy thinks knew that something was funny on 9/11/2001. At first I wasn't convinced that nefarious factions within the government had direct involvement (the history of real conspiracies would tell us otherwise), but now I'm leaning more toward some level of direct hands-on involvement.

You are a twoofer! Why so much denial?

[Gravy]

I would like nothing more than to see all the conspiracies be proven false.Last I checked, the burden was solely on the conspiracists to prove their claims true. Do you disagree?

I had an opportunity (finally) to attend a meeting of the local 9/11 Truth chapter here in New York, NY 9|11 Truth (http://www.ny911truth.org/), with whom I've been impressed.Yoiks! They are the most ignorant, the nastiest, and the kookiest people I've ever been around, by far.

[orphia nay]

For example, hoaxing is regularly rampant in the "UFO field".

Funny you should say that. I've sometimes thought that this guy, Mike the EMT, Lauro Chavez etc could possbily be hoaxes done by people such as crop circle makers in their spare time.


It looks like a Notary Public is essentially the same as a Justice of the Peace in New Zealand, which as you say, is no big deal at all.

Every Citizen's Advice Bureau has set days that local JPs attend, and they're most often used for certifying photocopies as genuine for things like birth certificates, CVs, etc.

-Gumboot

In Australia, Notary Publics charge a lot of money to witness documents, as far as I know. I.e. about $175.

[SkepticGuy]

Last I checked, the burden was solely on the conspiracists to prove their claims true. Do you disagree?
Certainly. However, we reserve the right to enage each other in collaborative discussion in an effort to prove them true... just as many here engage in discussion to prove them wrong. We need both speculation and skepticism to find plausible conclusions. (And please let's not see anyone respond by lumping me into a predefined "twoof" stereotype and attributing silly theories.)

Yoiks! They are the most ignorant, the nastiest, and the kookiest people I've ever been around, by far.
Read above to see my response on this.

[SkepticGuy]

You are a twoofer! Why so much denial?
I suppose in the broad and narrow-minded stereotype you apply to anyone who deals in "conspiracy theory," I can see how your reaction might be that way.

My specific ideas are less important to me than supporting a free and open environment where those who are highly speculative and those who are intensely skeptical can collaborate on provocative topics in a civilized way. If we're speculating on "conspiracies," we need to embrace an ability to encourage harsh critical analysis in an effort to understand reality.

The subject of this thread is an example. A reasonably long-standing conspiracy theory, promoted by several sources, favored by many "CTers", (despised by "twoofers" it seems) and a classic "dark op" tale (if not poorly told) was ripped to shreds by conspiracy theorists. If we blindly follow your stereotype, this should have been embraced in a twoof-fest... instead, it was rejected... within hours of exposure.

The point is... not all "CTers" are the same.

[SkepticGuy]

Funny you should say that. I've sometimes thought that this guy, Mike the EMT, Lauro Chavez etc could possbily be hoaxes done by people such as crop circle makers in their spare time.
Was the "Mike" hoax confirmed, or is it still just strongly suspected? I lost track of that one. (This is the "first-responder" letter to Dylan, right?)

There are elaborate UFO-related hoaxes on a monthly, if not weekly basis. Some are on a grand scale, like "Project Serpo", others are more subtle, like simple photo manipulations.

Here's the latest:
UFO pics on C2C (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread281345/pg1)
New Drone, Similar to C2C (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread283514/pg1)
There are multiple images of this "object" in different settings, but using the exact same handful of angles and lighting. Most have written this off as a viral marketing effort for the Transformers movie.

[Gravy]

Was the "Mike" hoax confirmed, or is it still just strongly suspected? Confirmed as a hoax by being laughably wrong, yes.

[Dog Town]

I suppose in the broad and narrow-minded stereotype you apply to anyone who deals in "conspiracy theory," I can see how your reaction might be that way.


The point is... not all "CTers" are the same.

No, some are not 911 twoofers! You , by your own account, are!
Why the denial? I have seen the "brush strokes" of your "art"!

[SkepticGuy]

Confirmed as a hoax by being laughably wrong, yes.
How was that confirmed?

[Gravy]

How was that confirmed?By the idiot not doing his homework. For instance, he stated that 10 minutes before the south tower collapsed, a 30-foot section of the concourse blew up into the air.

Um, no it didn't.

He said he saw molten steel running down I-beams in the basement. Oh? No one else did, nor were there fires that could have caused that to happen.

He said people (at least one with a bullhorn) were "counting down" the last 20 seconds to the WTC 7 demolition, and that they said they were going to "pull" the building. Um, no one else, anywhere, said that.

Just a disturbed fraud who mocks the suffering of the people who were there.

[CHF]

He said people (at least one with a bullhorn, IIRC) were "counting down" the last 20 seconds to the WTC 7 demolition, and that they said they were going to "pull" the building.

That "pull" remark jumped out at me when I first read it. If "Mike" were smart he would have tried to sound a little less twooferish since no one but da twoofers thinks "pull" translates into "demolish with explosives."

[Brainache]

Was the "Mike" hoax confirmed, or is it still just strongly suspected? I lost track of that one. (This is the "first-responder" letter to Dylan, right?)

<snip>


Yeah, but did anyone ever debunk this guy?:

Dear Dylan,

Firstly let me say I think you are a very courageous young man and I admire the way you have made a stand against oppression. I have seen your movie and it is very good, but I feel I have to let you know that you have got a few things wrong.

Before I get down to specifics I suppose I should tell you a little about myself. I am a Senior Constable in the Australian Federal Police. I cannot give you my name for obvious reasons, but I have been troubled for a long time by what I know happened on 11/09/01 and feel that I have to unburden my conscience.

On that day I was part of a security detail assigned to protect Prime Minister John Howard who was in the US to meet with President Bush. According to our itinerary we were scheduled to meet with Mr Bush that afternoon.

At 6.45am I was waiting for Mr Howard in his hotel suite when the phone rang and I answered it. The caller was an officer of the USSS who told me that Mr Bush would not be able to meet Mr Howard because of "unforeseen" difficulties. I protested that Mr Howard had only a limited time in Washington and that he should be given a better explanation. The caller sounded exhausted and more than a little flustered when he replied: "There is going to be a goddamn war starting today so F*** you buddy!" and then he hung up.

I was shocked by this behaviour and decided to report it, but just then Mr Howard emerged from the bathroom dressed and ready for his morning jog. I started to tell him what I had just heard when the phone rang again and Mr Howard answered it.

I had to stand by cooling my heels as I listened to Mr Howard's end of this call. I believe he was talking to Mr Bush because he called him George. I can't quote it verbatim, but it started friendly and ended well, strangely. I recall the phrase "Of course I understand George, you have to do what you have to do. Just let me know what Australia can do to help". After he hung up the phone the Prime Minister fixed me with his steely glare and said, "You didn't hear that". I could only nod agreement.

Remember all of this took place hours before any of the "hijackings". There are other things about that US trip that don't add up, but I don't have time to relate them here. I have a very detailed diary of these events which I have left with my solicitors on the understanding that should anything happen to me, they will know what to do.

Yours sincerely

Snr Cnst. X


Looks pretty authentic to me.:hypnodisk

[SkepticGuy]

Confirmed as a hoax by being laughably wrong, yes.
Is this true?
http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/index.php?showtopic=1804
I wouldnt expect to hear from Mike the EMT, since he was a jrefer just trying to wind dylan up.

[Unsecured Coins]

that's p-doh for ya. oddly enough, I was just about to post that here for you.

p-doh is known for outlandish off the cuff remarks. I'd take him about as seriously as I do my next door neighbor's grandmother beating me in a mexican knife fight

[SkepticGuy]

hrm...

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2622763
My job is to watch all of you.
Gravy, get your feet off the desk and go back to writing letters from Mike The EMT to Dylan. Ref, get me coffee. and Gumboot... um... work on those waffles.

[Slayhamlet]

Is this true?
http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/index.php?showtopic=1804

What do you think? :rolleyes:

[SkepticGuy]

What do you think? :rolleyes:
I'm not sure what to think... which is why I'm asking.

[Slayhamlet]

hrm...

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2622763

You're joking with us, right? Please tell me you are.

[Unsecured Coins]

hrm...

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2622763

Oh, well, if you can't take anything with a grain of salt, I suggest you do NOT watch my Unsecured Coins videos. They are packed full of more truth than the law allows

[SkepticGuy]

So... you guys created the "Mike the EMT" hoax? You're certainly not saying you didn't.

[Unsecured Coins]

I didn't, that's for damn sure. Although I can't speak for the rest of the people that post here, I'd fall onto my camo pant clad ass in disbelief if such behavior was perpetrated by someone here.

[Brainache]

So... you guys created the "Mike the EMT" hoax? You're certainly not saying you didn't.

Why would you believe us if we denied it?

AFAIK Mike was not a JREFer. There was at least one thread here devoted to finding out who he was, try seaching.

We did have a humorous thread called "Dylan Avery's most exciting email ever ever" which was a response to the LC forum's excitement over "Mike the EMT".

[Slayhamlet]

So... you guys created the "Mike the EMT" hoax? You're certainly not saying you didn't.

I can now see why you're a Conspiracy nut.

[SkepticGuy]

I'd fall onto my camo pant clad ass in disbelief if such behavior was perpetrated by someone here.
There appears to be a lot of fingers pointing in this (JREF) general direction that claim "JREFers" either created the original story as a hoax (seems unlikely) or "JREFers" posing as "Mike the EMT" for follow-up mayhem (seems more likely).

[Unsecured Coins]

if you hadn't noticed, we have also been blamed for LC getting taken off Virgin Airways's in flight movie list, the cancelled Parliment screening, the postponement of Dylan being on the View, and we have been personally held responsible for the death of Dale Earnhardt

[Slayhamlet]

There appears to be a lot of fingers pointing in this (JREF) general direction that claim "JREFers" either created the original story as a hoax (seems unlikely) or "JREFers" posing as "Mike the EMT" for follow-up mayhem (seems more likely).

Posing as "Mike the EMT" where?

[SkepticGuy]

if you hadn't noticed, we have also been blamed for LC getting taken off Virgin Airways's in flight movie list...
If that's true, then fantastic.

Now... back to someone from here (JREF) pretending to be "Mike the EMT"? Lots of various conversations about that.

[Unsecured Coins]

and how do we know that SkepticGuy is not really Mike the EMT?

ze plot, zey say, theeekens

[Unsecured Coins]

Lots of various conversations about that.

where they be?

[SkepticGuy]

where they be?
Already posted two... previous page of this thread.

Another...
http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/lofiversion/index.php?t1661.html

[Unsecured Coins]

yeah, but I'm lazy.

[Slayhamlet]

Hey Skepticguy, I just found incontrovertible proof that Dick Cheney, Vice President of the United States and NWO evil mastermind, is a contributor to this very forum under the guise of the seemingly down-to-earth personality of Stellafane! Wow, we JREFers really are a sneaky lot to keep this under wraps for so long.

Take a look (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2331804&postcount=35).

[kookbreaker]

Already posted two... previous page of this thread.

Another...
http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/lofiversion/index.php?t1661.html

The source in these cases is Pdoherty, who blames JREF for month old milk being sour in his fridge.

I don't know what point you are trying to make or why his ravings should be considered at all?

[Hamradioguy]

In Australia, Notary Publics charge a lot of money to witness documents, as far as I know. I.e. about $175.

Hmmmm, maybe I'm living in the wrong country. I was a Notary for several years back whan I was the HR Manager for the State Welfare Dept. Never charged a penny to notarize any documents. And after my Mom died I had to get a couple dozen claims to replace lost stock certificates notarized. The lady in the department where I worked never charged me anything, either.

Yes, A Notary here in Vermont CAN charge a minimal fee- a few dollars or so, but they rarely do. The unofficial policy is that you don't charge for notarizing something if you don't use an official seal (It's not required for documents that will be used for in state matters), and do charge if you use a seal (Which each Notary pays for out of his or her own pocket.) Almost all Notarys here don't have a seal BTW.

There- more than you'd probably want to know about Notarys Public in Vermont.

[SkepticGuy]

The source in these cases is Pdoherty
Hey... I don't know the personalities involved. I suppose that clears it up. :rolleyes:

It seems more like this "Mike" was a simple quick-shot fraud than hoaxer. Certainly a pile of crap.

But I tend to qualify hoaxes as more elaborate, with fabrication of "evidence," (like the subject of this thread) rather than someone just spewing idiocy on a message board. ;)


I'm not Mike, and the previous poster is wrong, I'm Mr. Cheney.

[Unsecured Coins]

Hey... I don't know the personalities involved. I suppose that clears it up. :rolleyes:

It seems more like this "Mike" was a simple quick-shot fraud than hoaxer. Certainly a pile of crap.

Whatever/whoever he was, it was enough to give Dylan a raging hard on from the likes of which sailors on shore leave have never seen. Ask him about it now, and I doubt you'll get a response

[Brainache]

Hey... I don't know the personalities involved. I suppose that clears it up. :rolleyes:

...

I'm not Mike, and the previous poster is wrong, I'm Mr. Cheney.

Mind if we call you Dick?

[Gravy]

There appears to be a lot of fingers pointing in this (JREF) general direction that claim "JREFers" either created the original story as a hoax (seems unlikely) or "JREFers" posing as "Mike the EMT" for follow-up mayhem (seems more likely).Or, immature truthers are, as they do every single day, making unfounded accusations. They don't exactly have a track record of honesty, SkepticGuy. Why is anyone giving this story any attention? A sick fraud is a sick fraud, whichever "side" he's on.

[Unsecured Coins]

by the way, I'd like to add that I only said "Gravy, write more letters to Dylan as Mike The EMT" because he demolished Dylan so bad, Ol' AVery made an avatar of Gravy kicking his own ass since Dylan obviously wasn't in the same league as him, and therefore, unable to do it himself.

I am NOT implying Gravy is, was, or ever will be Mike.

The fact is, Dylan will listen to ANY woo as evident of the e-mail exchanges I had with him.

[kookbreaker]

Hey... I don't know the personalities involved. I suppose that clears it up. :rolleyes:

Just pointing out that your sources laed to one poster on SLC.


It seems more like this "Mike" was a simple quick-shot fraud than hoaxer. Certainly a pile of crap.


Indeed. And yet Dylan fell for it. Completely. One thing I should point out about the personality of the 'blamer' mentioned above is that he is an agressive apologist of the worst order. Dylan falls for something because he didn't do basic fact checking? Must be JREF's fault! The list of his antics goes on and on and gets worse.

What I am saying is: Know what your source is, and which orifice it is pulling 'facts' from.

[uk_dave]

There appears to be a lot of fingers pointing in this (JREF) general direction that claim "JREFers" either created the original story as a hoax (seems unlikely) or "JREFers" posing as "Mike the EMT" for follow-up mayhem (seems more likely).


The 'truthers' always look to blame someone else when things don't go their way.

If their 'movement' attracts idiots who spout even more absurd theories, then in 'truthers' eyes it's not because that is the nature of their movement and beliefs, it is because the evil govt has set a cointelpro/disinfo agent within their midst.

And if an email arrives which confirms everything they want to believe about 9/11, but is then found to be fake, they don't look to their own fellow believers as being the culprit, but instead they once again look to blame someone from outside of their movement.

This pattern of behaviour is clear to see, correct?

So, extrapolate this back to the 911 conspiracy itself.

A shocking event occurs, carried out by extremists from another country.

People are scared, including the 'truthers'

They don't like being scared. They want certainty and order. Foreign extremists with a different belief system bring uncertainty and disorder into their lives. So, they look to blame someone else for the attacks.

To the 'truthers' steel framed structures just shouldn't be vulnerable to fire, and shouldn't collapse so violently and quickly as they did on 9/11, so the 'truther' looks for an alternative which, whilst still extreme, is more palatable to their world view, i.e preplanted explosives.

To the 'truther' aircraft just can't be taken over by people with little knives, let alone flown with a degree of precision into buildings. So better that they believe in drones or remote controlled takeover.

Of course the rational person would ask how these alternative scenarios can be better or more comforting to the 'truther' than the reality.

But so long as it is the US govt or shadowy secret cult/organisation they can attempt to understand the means and motives of the conspirators. This understanding provides the comfort they need. It also means that they can 'fight' the evil doers, without having to invade another country and face the religious fanatacism which caused 9/11.

The 'truthers' have created a bogeyman (you know, just like they accuse the US govt of doing with AQ. Funny how the 'truthers' always manage to do precisely what they believe others are capable of) which they can acheive a nefarious thrill from seeming to oppose. They lack empathy with reality and so are vulnerable to belief in the fantastical.

[stilicho]

There appears to be a lot of fingers pointing in this (JREF) general direction that claim "JREFers" either created the original story as a hoax (seems unlikely) or "JREFers" posing as "Mike the EMT" for follow-up mayhem (seems more likely).
This kind of thing is interesting.

Conspiracy theorists tend to make allegations based on anonymous sources. Yet they are uniformly and rigidly critical of authoritative sources because "they're all in on it".

This fails all the tests of logic.

It's why most of us, casual observers here and in life, would tend to accept "official stories" and commission reports (along with the vegetable soups of ASCE, NIST, FEMA, NORAD, etc.) instead of things we see on internet forums.

The thing that makes Gravy's documentation convincing, for example, is his employment of "official sources" against people calling themselves "Killtown" and "Web Fairy". Real conspiracies, such as Watergate and Iran-Contra, were exposed by actual human beings, with names and credentials, doing real investigative work and not by anonymous bloggers.

I am pretty certain that the whole "Mike the EMT" thing is a hoax just because it has no coin whatsoever in the "mainstream press". And most of the people I've seen here (and whose work I've read and used to help those only exposed to "da twoof") are far too busy to invent phantoms when folks like Meyssan, Zwicker, Ruppert, and Von Kliest are still peddling unsupportable opinions to the unsuspecting.

[Darat]

There appears to be a lot of fingers pointing in this (JREF) general direction that claim "JREFers" either created the original story as a hoax (seems unlikely) or "JREFers" posing as "Mike the EMT" for follow-up mayhem (seems more likely).

As Admin:

Please correct your future terminology - there are no "JREFers" - there are merely people who are Members of the JREF Forum (as you are).

Members of the JREF Forum do not represent the JREF or the JREF Forum.

ETA: If you have evidence that people are claiming they represent the JREF or Randi please copy it to Jeff Wagg (jeff@randi.org) the General Manager of the JREF who can take appropriate action.

[SkepticGuy]

Please correct your future terminology - there are no "JREFers"
That's why I used "quotation marks." The reference of "JREFers" was shown to be taken from other sources.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

So, how does one tell the difference between a hoax and a fraud if the perpetrator never steps forward?

[Dog Town]

Skeptioverdone@ATS:
Yes... excellent catch. We had at least eight moderators looking through his site. This should prove interesting. I'd like to hear our author's response.

At 10 hours!
Hm... since the ID badge is not linked in his "story," I suppose we may want to reserve some level of judgement until we hear from McNiven.

It would be irreversibly damning if he offered that up as evidence in his documentation. As it is, it's still reason for doubt.


Yet more!
Help me here members...

On the balance, this does appear to be very "hoaxish," to say the least. While we can certainly consider that McNiven has a sense of humor and created that ID for a purpose other than telling his tale... a fabricated "anything" in relation to his story is not a good sign.

That being the case, if this proves to be an elaborate hoax... is this the first such hoax in 9/11 conspiracy lore? (Other than simply bad theories)

If it is... two things come to mind...

1) It signals the maturity of the topic, as hoaxes are rampant in the UFO subculture.

2) It's disgusting, as thousands of people have not been murder by UFO's.

Given #2, maybe we should back off on our glee of discovery, and let this topic settle down until/if we hear from McNiven.

I'll refine the opening post to link to the evidence you have discovered.

10 HOURS IN? YOU ARE DISGUSTING!
My Fave,
He had some reasonable independent press coverage, including Alex Jones. , we thought it valuable to create an environment where our members could interact with him.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread283741/pg5

Done!

[SkepticGuy]

Skeptioverdone@ATS:
10 HOURS IN? YOU ARE DISGUSTING!


Now I understand your ire, you were banned from ATS some months ago.

Here's a couple of my responses to your posts:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread220901/pg1#pid2412809
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread219930/pg1#pid2395453
You never really responded, and instead left in a hissy-fit with an insulting over-the-top post that needed to be removed, and resulted in a posting-ban applied to your account.

As I've said before, ATS is not for everyone. It can be very difficult for those who are passionate about their ideas to understand the need to maintain polite civility. We regularly encounter this problem from both "truthers" and "skeptics" (though to be fair, we see it much more often from "turthers" than "skeptics").

It's clear that this JREF environment suits your interests better than ATS, and it's good that all has worked out for the best.

As to the comment here, in this thread... I don't follow you. What are you implying?

[Dog Town]

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread220901/pg1#pid2412809
Sketicoverlord@ATS
That's the key. Many people confuse my chosen site name as someone who is skeptical of conspiracy theories... far from it... I'm skeptical of everything, including overly vocal conspiracy speculators. We need harsh criticism and analysis of 9/11 conspiracy ideas, but that criticism must come from years of experience in conspiracy research, not from a desire for morbid entertainment.

So your YEARS of research, had you mail this "HOAX" to every member at ATS, as a "News Letter"! Nice... I detest your morbid entertainment! I know who to avoid. You are a sad, sad person! Does ATS pay your bills? Tell the truth.

[SkepticGuy]

I detest...

I see you're still angry over the action our moderators took against your "Duhh (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/mem/Duhh)" account for your impolite behavior. If you're truly "disgusted" with us, then why the indignation of their decision?

While I do indeed often refer back to my previous experience on "conspiracy-related" topics, it's impossible to pay attention to every detail on such a large site (I'm just one of three owners), and much is handled by our staff. Regarding this particular topic, you seem to have missed this post:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread283741/pg2#pid3213065
(5 hours after the original post)
This began as a guest submission to the Newsletter Special Feature (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/email_submission.php) form. Many of our staff, including our newsletter editorial chief, William One Sac, reviewed the submission and felt it was interesting enough to publish and that it would certainly likely spark quality discussion.

>snip<

On a personal note, I think it's refreshing (as well as important) to discuss 9/11-related issues that are potential precursors to 9/11/2001... even if the originating source causes skepticism.

The decision to go forward with this particular piece involved several people, including the person assigned to pick newsletter articles.


In this thread, your behavior is mirroring "twoofers" to a significant degree. You're selecting choice tidbits out of context, and using these limited pieces of information to help support a predefined supposition of your own seemingly to satisfy a pre-existing compulsive rage.
("Twoofers" being born of compulsively angry anti-establishment activists, who pick and choose 9/11 "evidence" to fuel their tempestuousness.)

[Caper]

Just a quick question..... Is Timothy McNiven even real?

I got linked this letter by a truther..... and before I explode on him I want to confirm if the guy is real or not.

http://www.codenamegrillfire.com/docs/affidavit.pdf

[fezzic]

No idea.

I would point out that a notarized statement means that the guy was confirmed by the Notary as being the one who signed the affidavit. I understand that the Notary is supposed to also administer an oath to the signer regarding the statement being true (though that seems to be rare) but the Notary would have no independent means of knowing whether the actual statements made were, in fact, true or not. I don't know if lying in a notarized affidavit would have any adverse legal consequences.

[LashL]

deleted - no point in prolonging this thread

[jaydeehess]

Just catching up on this thread...

Laying cards on the table I admit it ,,, I am NOT "Mike the EMT".

Anytime the TM finds something that does not fit their particular view of how things went down on 9/11 it is labled disinfo. In the same fashion when certain stories are shown to be probable hoaxes they then lay the blame as far away from their own movement as possible. thus when Mike is shown to be a probable hoax they blame the easy target, some anonymous JREF member, for the hoax. It could as easily have been a TM believer attempting to bolster his cause in an end-justifies-the-means fashion.

[fezzic]

Caper,

Might want to check out posting #48 and #57 (I think those are the right ones) on page 1 or 2 of the thread. It may be useful.