Calling on all the religion experts here- what IS IT that Mormons believe again?!

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Could someone here give me the whole story? Just lay down the whole story. Cause I can't be bothered to actually read the Book of Mormon or try to make sense of the Wikipedia entry.

Please do it "what orthodox Christianity says" vs "Mormonism".

[Miss Anthrope]

Hey Eeney--

You might try PM'ing RandFan, he might be able to answer some specifics for you.

[CurtC]

This video describes it pretty accurately:
SFnanlHZQE4

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I've seen that episode and I still don't quite get it.

Ok, to start with- so Israel and the Holy Land were really in America.

Then what the hell do they think the real Israel was ?!

[slingblade]

There's already another and recent thread, still on the front page, about this. Might check that one, too.

[maddog]

As I understand it, according to the Mormons:
During the *literal* seven day period between Jesus' apparitions to the disciples after the resurrection, he went somewhere in the Americas (North or South, I'm not sure which or where) and founded his church, made appearances to and through the angel Moroni, and other such things.

Other than that, they believe in the *literal* truth of the Bible, much like the evangelical Christians (not so, generally, for Catholics, Anglicans/Episcopalians, some Lutherans, and some other branches of xtianity). The Book of Mormon is considered supplemental to, not a replacement for, the Bible; though it may be considered more important.

At least that's how I understand it, on a very basic level.

Some of their beliefs that grow out of those basics, however, like what happens after death, are far beyond the scope of what I can explain.

[thaiboxerken]

Ok, to start with- so Israel and the Holy Land were really in America.

I think America is the new Holy Land according to the Mormon book. Isrealites moved here and were bad, so they became Native Americans. Oh, and the Garden of Eden is in Jacksonville, Missouri.

I think the reason you're not getting it is because it makes absolutely no sense.

[RandFan]

A descendant of *Abraham, living in Jerusalem, was visted by god and told to leave the old world and came to America in 600 BC which he did.
He took his wife, his children (Laman, Lemuel, Nephi and Samuel) and their spouses.
These folks went forth and multiplied in America.
The descendants became two groups. Nephites (descendants of Nephi and Sam) and Lamanites (descendants of Laman and Lemuel)
Because they were wicked god turned the skin color of the lamanites dark.
Sometimes the Nephites were bad but they were usually good. Sometimes the Lamanites were good but they were usually bad.
God appears to the prophets of these people throughout their history and tells them about the coming of Christ. The prophets record their history on metal plates.
After Christ is crucified in the old world he comes to America and establishes Christianity in the New World.
Eventually the Lamanites kill all of the Nephites.
One of the last Nephites compiles all of the records into a single volume and buries them in a hill.
Many years later Joseph Smith is visited by an angel and told where to find the records.
Joseph Smith translates the records that are written on metal plates known as the gold plates and calls it the book of Mormon after one of the prophets of the BOM.
The Book of Mormon is ostensibly the history of Native Americans and explains why there were Native Americans (Indians) in the New World when Columbus arrived.
Joseph Smith is then told by god that he is to start a new church.It's all BS.

*It is the descendants of Abraham that form Judaism and Islam. Christianity, Islam and Judaism are known as Abrahamic religions.

[DOC]

I'll try to make this explanation as simple as possible.

Mainline Christianity (Catholics and Protestants) believe God (the Father) is a Spirit. Christ came out of God and is God in the flesh, but Christ is not the entire entity of God. The Holy Spirit also comes out of God and guides Christians but the Holy Spirit is also not the entire entity of God.

Supposedly St Patrick used the 3 leaf clover to try to explain the Trinity. 3 in 1.


Mormons have a very different concept of God. In Mormon theology God was at one time a regular human who became God over time by a series of holy actions. The Mormon God lives on a planet called Kolob. The Mormons believe that God exists in human form of flesh and bone. This belief that God lives on the planet Kolob in human form is not in the bible but was a revelation that a former Mormon president had. Mormons are big on ongoing revelations by their presidents.

As I stated in another forum I believe very few non-Mormons are aware of all this. And I believe Mormons do not tell new converts about their god living on another planet. Now the Mormons do do some good work and have a top notch missions program, but I believe they are not totally in touch with the true Gospel of Christ. I've heard it said that Christianity has many different "branches" or denominations but Mormonism is not a branch -- it's a whole separate and different plant from mainline Christianity (Catholics and Protestants).

[Darth Rotor]

I've heard it said that Christianity has many different "branches" or denominations but Mormonism is not a branch -- it's a whole separate and different plant from mainline Christianity (Catholics and Protestants).
So, your take is that Mormons are splitters?

DR

[CurtC]

My link to the South Park episode was probably not that helpful to understand what the Mormons actually believe, contrasted to Christianity.

RandFan explained it, but in case you got lost, the North American natives were actually descendants of the Israelites who came here in 600 BCE. They split into two groups, the bad ones and the good ones. The bad ones, of course, had dark skin. After Jesus was crucified, he visited America. The dark-skinned, bad injuns wiped out the light-skinned, good injuns, but the last survivor wrote down all that history and buried it in New York.

So all the Native Americans that were encountered here when the European settlers arrived were the bad ones. Joseph Smith happened to be the guy who discovered the writings of the last good one.

As for doctrinal differences, a key is the idea of ongoing revelation, where a church father can still get messages directly from God (as DOC described). I was unaware of the idea that God lives on the planet Kolob.

It all seems outrageously silly, but I think the main difference between our perception of that and mainline Christianity is that Mormonism is much more recent, and we expect recent events to be non-miraculous.

[RandFan]

Now the Mormons do do some good work and have a top notch missions program, but I believe they are not totally in touch with the true Gospel of Christ. I've heard it said that Christianity has many different "branches" or denominations but Mormonism is not a branch -- it's a whole separate and different plant from mainline Christianity (Catholics and Protestants).

Mormonism is a fraud DOC. A blatant fraud. Christianity is also a fraud but it is older and more accepted.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I don't get it- because it makes no sense! :D

The "history" is so full of holes and discrepancies and everything unreconcilable with the hstory of mankind, it's like my mind rejects it before I can piece it together. I can't even piece it together as a story. I can't even piece it together as a re-write of Christianity.

OK- so if the Garden of Eden was in Mississippi, how do they explain human civilization in Europe, Africa, Asia and elsewhere? Humankind all migrated out of America, leaving no one behind and later migrated again? Is this the Out of America, Back to America theory?

[RandFan]

I don't get it- because it makes no sense! :D What religion does?

The "history" is so full of holes and discrepancies and everything unreconcilable with the hstory of mankind, it's like my mind rejects it before I can piece it together. I can't even piece it together as a story.Forgive me Eeny but this seems a bit of hyperbole. What do you mean "everything"? I suspect your problem is mostly personal and not logical. This isn't to say that there are not many illogical aspects to Mormonism. There is of course just like there is a load of illogical BS in Christianity and all othe religions. However I think Mormonism in many ways is far superior to other religions. It answers a lot of questions that other religions can't and gives a far more reasonable explanation of salvation and the next life. If there was a next life that is.

OK- so if the Garden of Eden was in Mississippi, how do they explain human civilization in Europe, Africa, Asia and elsewhere? Humankind all migrated out of America, leaving no one behind and later migrated again? Is this the Out of America, Back to America theory?Great question, but then how do Christians explain human civilization and animals for that matter in America, Africa, Asia and elsewhere? Remember the Flood destroyed all living things. In a matter of a couple thousand years the descendants of the humans and animals that left the ark had to populate the entire earth. A feat that is physically impossible. A feat that is also irreconcilable with history.

But take a page from DOC and focus on Mormonism. Doing so might make it easier to swallow the mention of giants and unicorns in the bible. I'm guessing those don't make your mind do cartwheels.

[thaiboxerken]

OK- so if the Garden of Eden was in Mississippi, how do they explain human civilization in Europe, Africa, Asia and elsewhere?

Noah's ark and boat migration after many generations.

[ponderingturtle]

I am seeing interesting comparisons with scientology in theology if not history, the whole becomeing gods things and such.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Forgive me Eeny but this seems a bit of hyperbole. What do you mean "everything"? I suspect your problem is mostly personal and not logical. This isn't to say that there are not many illogical aspects to Mormonism. There is of course just like there is a load of illogical BS in Christianity and all othe religions. However I think Mormonism in many ways is far superior to other religions. It answers a lot of questions that other religions can't and gives a far more reasonable explanation of salvation and the next life. If there was a next life that is.


I'm sorry but Mormonism makes my mind do cartwheels around Christianity, history and logic.

I admit you're right though- as someone raised Catholic, I'm absolutely tickled by beliefs such as that the Garden of Eden was in Jacksonville. It's even easier for Christains to mock Mormons than for nonbelievers so I guess it's personal and logical.

I'm sorry but I think it's even more loonier than Christianity. Like Bill Maher said, it's weird even by the standards of other religions.

So tell me, what are their beliefs about the afterlife?

[Abdul Alhazred]

Mormon cosmology is the back story of Battlestar Galactica.

Really.

http://www.michaellorenzen.com/galactica.html

[SoBitter]

Hmm, I never knew much about Mormonism. I think almost all religions are 95% craziness, but a god living on another planet is a new one.

It brings up an interesting topic though, for atheists and agnostics: which religion do you think is the LEAST crazy? Has there been a thread on this?

[Bikewer]

Some years ago, I read an interesting little book on "crank" archeology in the New World. The author went through all of the bizzare notions floating around; Lost Tribes, Romans, Vikings, etc.
It was felt by early arrivals that the "primitive savages" they encountered could not possibly have made artifacts like the Mounds, and the numerous finely-crafted articles found there, so it must have been someone else. Someone a lot....whiter.
This was a prevailing notion during Smith's time, and in his original fiction (oops-transcriptions from the golden tablets) he had Jesus appearing to tribes of whites who were living in the Americas at the time.
There was no mention of Indians, or of these white guys turning dark.
It was only after no one was able to find any evidence of any white men living in the Americas that the Mormons decided to "edit" Smith a bit into the current version.
Pretty good book, wish I could remember the title. The author spent the second half of the book giving the current scientific view on the peopling of the Americas.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Hmm, I never knew much about Mormonism. I think almost all religions are 95% craziness, but a god living on another planet is a new one.

It brings up an interesting topic though, for atheists and agnostics: which religion do you think is the LEAST crazy? Has there been a thread on this?

From what I know so far of the world's religions, I'd put mainstream Christianity, Judaism and Islam at least crazy, Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism and variations at two, Mormonism at three with Scientology taking the cake.

Sorry but there's crazy and then there's crazier. Like South Park said, Scientology is more retarded than Christianity, Buddhism and others, way more retarded.

[RandFan]

I'm sorry but Mormonism makes my mind do cartwheels around Christianity, history and logic.

I admit you're right though- as someone raised Catholic, I'm absolutely tickled by beliefs such as that the Garden of Eden was in Jacksonville. It's even easier for Christains to mock Mormons than for nonbelievers so I guess it's personal and logical.

I'm sorry but I think it's even more loonier than Christianity. Like Bill Maher said, it's weird even by the standards of other religions.It's all perspective.

So tell me, what are their beliefs about the afterlife?You get to do stuff. You don't have to sit at the feet of Jesus for all eternity which is the most god awful notion I've ever heard of. After 10 trillion years of sitting at the feet of Jesus I would want to go to hell.

Mormons get to procreate other spirits and create worlds and send those spirits to live in mortal bodies to start the whole cycle over again.

Which make much more sense that a god existing forever knowing that some point along an eternal path he/she would create humans and send most of them to an eternal punishment. Which begs the question, why bother? Why did god need humans? Why did he need billions of people to suffer the most extreme pain for eternity? What's the f***ing point?

With Mormons, mortal life typifies immortal life. There are heavenly parents who have heavenly children who go to an earth to learn and be tested and then they go on to be heavenly parents, etc., etc.

It's BS but it's intelligent BS.

[RandFan]

I'd put mainstream Christianity, Judaism and Islam at least crazy...I don't think Zenu and thetans are any bit more crazy than the lunatic ideas of Christianity, Judaism and Islam. I've already listed a lot of crazy *****. You are just familiar with those so you find it crazy. People raised to believe that there god has an elephant face or 3 sets of arms don't think those ideas crazy but they do think Chistianicy crazy. That's the one critical piece you are failing at.

[Hokulele]

From what I know so far of the world's religions, I'd put mainstream Christianity, Judaism and Islam at least crazy, Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism and variations at two, Mormonism at three with Scientology taking the cake.

Sorry but there's crazy and then there's crazier. Like South Park said, Scientology is more retarded than Christianity, Buddhism and others, way more retarded.


I think your choices are due more to familiarity than with any actual evidence. What is it about Jainism you find so crazy? Granted their cosmology is a bit different, but certainly no stranger than a creator god who has hissy fits at his creations.

Also, how would one differentiate between religion and philosophy? Where would classical Taoism (the one I am most familiar with), Confucionism, or even Wiccan or pagan beliefs fit in?

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I don't think Zenu and thetans are any bit more crazy than the lunatic ideas of Christianity, Judaism and Islam. I've already listed a lot of crazy *****. You are just familiar with those so you find it crazy. People raised to believe that there god has an elephant face or 3 sets of arms don't think those ideas crazy but they do think Chistianicy crazy. That's the one critical piece you are failing at.

No, I totally get that. I know I find Christianity and the variations the least nuts cause I was raised Catholic.

You can't pretend Buddha and Jesus are equal with Xenu. That's that's pure lunacy squared. That you must be some kind of mentally ill to really believe.

It's hardly a contest, though. It's like picking between eating puke and more puke.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I think your choices are due more to familiarity than with any actual evidence. What is it about Jainism you find so crazy? Granted their cosmology is a bit different, but certainly no stranger than a creator god who has hissy fits at his creations.

Also, how would one differentiate between religion and philosophy? Where would classical Taoism (the one I am most familiar with), Confucionism, or even Wiccan or pagan beliefs fit in?

I know it's about familiarity but the question is which one I find nuts and which one nuttier so I answered honestly. On an emotional level, I find Jainism harder to believe than Christianity but I understand that for someone born and raised in India, it's the opposite.

[RandFan]

No, I totally get that. I know I find Christianity and the variations the least nuts cause I was raised Catholic.

You can't pretend Buddha and Jesus are equal with Xenu. That's that's pure lunacy squared. That you must be some kind of mentally ill to really believe.

It's hardly a contest, though. It's like picking between eating puke and more puke.I won't argue with this.

[Foster Zygote]

Some years ago, I read an interesting little book on "crank" archeology in the New World. The author went through all of the bizzare notions floating around; Lost Tribes, Romans, Vikings, etc.
It was felt by early arrivals that the "primitive savages" they encountered could not possibly have made artifacts like the Mounds, and the numerous finely-crafted articles found there, so it must have been someone else. Someone a lot....whiter.
This was a prevailing notion during Smith's time, and in his original fiction (oops-transcriptions from the golden tablets) he had Jesus appearing to tribes of whites who were living in the Americas at the time.
There was no mention of Indians, or of these white guys turning dark.
It was only after no one was able to find any evidence of any white men living in the Americas that the Mormons decided to "edit" Smith a bit into the current version.
Pretty good book, wish I could remember the title. The author spent the second half of the book giving the current scientific view on the peopling of the Americas.

It's the same with the amazing ruins of Great Zimbabwe. Many European explorers thought "These can't have been made by the native people, they're skin is way too dark". Some even concluded that it was built by King Solomon. Once, when I pointed out to someone that the pyramids at Giza had been built by Africans he tried to claim that they were actually built by Greeks.

[Foster Zygote]

I don't think Zenu and thetans are any bit more crazy than the lunatic ideas of Christianity, Judaism and Islam. I've already listed a lot of crazy *****. You are just familiar with those so you find it crazy. People raised to believe that there god has an elephant face or 3 sets of arms don't think those ideas crazy but they do think Chistianicy crazy. That's the one critical piece you are failing at.

Please do not offer my god a peanut.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Wait a sec, so what about Mormon hell? Don't they believe in hell?

[Hokulele]

I know it's about familiarity but the question is which one I find nuts and which one nuttier so I answered honestly. On an emotional level, I find Jainism harder to believe than Christianity but I understand that for someone born and raised in India, it's the opposite.


I understand that this is just your personal opinion. My issue is with the use of emotional reactions to determine the relative level of nuttiness.

[CurtC]

You don't have to sit at the feet of Jesus for all eternity which is the most god awful notion I've ever heard of. After 10 trillion years of sitting at the feet of Jesus I would want to go to hell.

Did you see the Christopher Hitches vs. Al Sharpton Smackdown (http://www.slate.com/id/2166143?nav=tap3)? In it, Hitchens compares heaven to when he visited North Korea, being forced to worship some crazy thug. But then he points out that in North Korea you can at least finally escape it by dying.

[RandFan]

Did you see the Christopher Hitches vs. Al Sharpton Smackdown (http://www.slate.com/id/2166143?nav=tap3)? In it, Hitchens compares heaven to when he visited North Korea, being forced to worship some crazy thug. But then he points out that in North Korea you can at least finally escape it by dying.Yes, Hitchens is my current hero. He savages Mormons btw in his new book. My Christian friends assure me that should I be saved that I will always want to worship at the feet of Jesus... really?

I guess heaven is the ultimate town of Stepford for men and women. It does sound like North Korea.

[RandFan]

Wait a sec, so what about Mormon hell? Don't they believe in hell?Yes but it's a bit different than the clasic idea.

Claim: "Here's what happens [in hell]. You will never again hear beautiful music. You will never again see a beautiful cloud. You will never again feel the soft touch of wind on your face. You will never again have a lover's embrace. You will never again have one moment of (inaudible). There will no moment of pleasure, not ever. Eternity rolls on. And the Bible also says you're in outer darkness, you're in (inaudible) darkness and yet in a burning fire. No one can explain that, but God can do it. He had a bush burn and not be consumed that Moses saw.

"Listen my friend, hell is so awful that when I think of hell, many, many times I've wept as I think of people going there—and Mormon friends, LDS friends, that's just the beginning. You hear of doctors treating people for depression. You'll have the worst depression the world has ever seen. Nobody will treat. No psychiatrist will be there treating you. No doctor will be giving you aspirin. No doctor will give you something to alleviate the pain. You're there. And interminably it goes on. Every day it seems to be worse than the day before. One minute is like an hour. One hour is like a week. One week is like a month. One month is like a year and still you burn and you scream like the rich man, you'd give everything you ever owned for one drop of water to cool your tongue. Oh my God, oh my God what a fool I've been. I'm in hell. I didn't believe. I knew many of the things in the Bible came true. I don't know I didn't believe hell would come true. You're in hell. You're in hell, you're abandoned by God and man." - Floyd McElveen, Author and Lifetime Evangelist

[kmortis]

Yes, Hitchens is my current hero. He savages Mormons btw in his new book. My Christian friends assure me that should I be saved that I will always want to worship at the feet of Jesus... really?

I guess heaven is the ultimate town of Stepford for men and women. It does sound like North Korea.

Well, that worked so well for me.:rolleyes:

Eeny,
If you'd like a more accessible telling of the Book of Mormon, pick up Orson Scott Card's series Homecoming Saga (The Memory of Earth, The Call of Earth, The Ships of Earth, Earthfall & Earthborn). I think it's easier to grasp the story once the "religion" aspect is stripped away and put into a pure sci-fi/fantasy setting.

As for LDS theology making sense? You're on your own there. I'm with RandFan here, no religion really makes sense objectively. You were raised Catholic, so symbolic cannibalism and a schizoid deity makes sense to you. Rand was raised Mormon, so he can understand that if a guy translates golden tablets from a hat, it's a good thing. I was raised Methodist, so I understand that church suppers should be served lukewarm. :p

[ponderingturtle]

Hmm on the idea of crazyness of religion, I am coming up with a different enterpretation of it.

All religions require strange beliefs, but some religions have a higher starting point for strange beliefs than others. You can get equaly crazy people in any religion but ones who are less crazy are not part of certain religions.

[Spiro]

Maybe this is too simple, but I regard as crazy any religion that obliges some or all of its adherents to wear silly hats.

Oh heck: that seems to cover almost all of them.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Ok, so can anyone tell me why Jacksonville, Mississippi? I've never been down there but I'm sure it's very nice...but on what basis is it the Garden of Eden? Did Moroni say so to Joseph Smith?

Also, what about the huge contradictions between the Bible and the Book of Mormon? How can they believe in both of them?

[thaiboxerken]

Also, what about the huge contradictions between the Bible and the Book of Mormon? How can they believe in both of them?


The same way christians can believe the NT even though it contradicts much of the OT.

[RandFan]

Ok, so can anyone tell me why Jacksonville, Mississippi? I've never been down there but I'm sure it's very nice...but on what basis is it the Garden of Eden? Did Moroni say so to Joseph Smith? As I remember, Joseph got that bit of wisdom directly from God. Now, when I heard that I thought "so what"? What possible difference does it make?

Also, what about the huge contradictions between the Bible and the Book of Mormon? How can they believe in both of them?You are still failing to put on your critical thinking cap. (See ken's post above.) These questions are really too easy. The bible is full of contradictions. There are websites devoted to listing bible contradictions (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html). In fact, the bible contradicts itself in the beginning, literally and metaphorically.

[Foster Zygote]

You are still failing to put on your critical thinking cap. (See ken's post above.) These questions are really too easy. The bible is full of contradictions. There are websites devoted to listing bible contradictions (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html). In fact, the bible contradicts itself in the beginning, literally and metaphorically.

Yep. New Testament contradicts Old Testament. Gospels contradict other Gospels...

[Abdul Alhazred]

So what if two authors centuries apart have differing views on something?

The Biblical contradiction problem is in considering it "one book" instead of a body of literature.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

As I remember, Joseph got that bit of wisdom directly from God. Now, when I heard that I thought "so what"? What possible difference does it make?

You are still failing to put on your critical thinking cap. (See ken's post above.) These questions are really too easy. The bible is full of contradictions. There are websites devoted to listing bible contradictions (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html). In fact, the bible contradicts itself in the beginning, literally and metaphorically.

Because the Garden of Eden being in Missouri or Mississippi or wherever is absolutely laughable.

Contradictions between the Book of Mormon and the Bible are glaring. You don't even need to be familiar with the Bible or The Book of Mormon to already have a few big ones come to mind.

I'm sorry but there's crazy and then there's crazier.

[RandFan]

Because the Garden of Eden being in Missouri or Mississippi or wherever is absolutely laughable. Why do you think so? Hey, I think the idea of a "Garden of Eden" is absolutely laughable on it's face. This is where you indocrination is keeping you from thinking critically.

If we accept that god can do anything and god's ways are mysterious then suddenly the Garden of Eden being on the moon or in the middle of the sun makes perfect sense.

It is only laughable if you A.) View the world from a counter religious view or B.) View the world from a critical thinking standpoint.

Eeney, I contend that you are not choosing B. If you did then the comparisons become silly. It's like arguing that the Hulk is more probable than Flash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superhero). Perhaps but it IS STILL MAKE BELIEVE!

Contradictions between the Book of Mormon and the Bible are glaring. You don't even need to be familiar with the Bible or The Book of Mormon to already have a few big ones come to mind. Contradictions in the bible are glaring. You don't even need to be familiar with the Bible to have a few big ones come to mind.

I'm sorry but there's crazy and then there's crazier.BFD. Christianity is still bat [rule 8] crazy.

[Cleon]

Eeney, I contend that you are not choosing B. If you did then the comparisons become silly. It's like arguing that the Hulk is more probable than Flash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superhero). Perhaps but it IS STILL MAKE BELIEVE!


For your enjoyment:

Home on the Strange #211 (http://www.homeonthestrange.com/view.php?ID=211)
Home on the Strange #212 (http://www.homeonthestrange.com/view.php?ID=212)

[l0rca]

Wow, I can't believe nobody did this yet --


So, your take is that Mormons are splitters?

DR

SPLITTER!

[thaiboxerken]

Because the Garden of Eden being in Missouri or Mississippi or wherever is absolutely laughable.

The entire garden of eden story is absolutely laughable. Where is the garden of eden supposed to be at anyway? Did it just disappear? If so, that's laughable as well. At least Missouri is a nice and green area.


Contradictions between the Book of Mormon and the Bible are glaring.

Same with the bible and itself, the OT with the NT, book of mark with book of matthew.


You don't even need to be familiar with the Bible or The Book of Mormon to already have a few big ones come to mind.

I doubt this claim.


I'm sorry but there's crazy and then there's crazier.

Agreed, but the only real think that makes the BoM more laughable is that we know the author of the BoM and his story of how he came upon it. The bible believers don't even really attempt to discuss who actually wrote the various books in the bible, they just say "god did it through men."

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Trying to articulate this- the Garden of Eden being in Missouri is nuttier than it being in heaven or in The Holy Land because the Mormons were mainstream Christians in a Christian world so coming up with something as out there squared as that Jesus was in America and the Garden of Eden was in Missouri and that God is an alien is laughable from their point of view. They were a wackjob cult to your perfectly sane, average variety churchgoer.

They took religion and made it thrice loonier.

And like Bill Maher said, they believe in things that are demonstrably untrue. That are a thousand and one percent untrue. Ok, so Jesus lived 2000 years ago and Mohammed lived at the turn of the millenium, we don't know if they really were prophets. Mormons, on the other hand, believe in things that can be disproved by a first grade history textbook.

Christianity is highly unlikely, Mormonism is demonstrably untrue. It's so ridiculous, it's indistinguishable from parody.

And in a smaller degree, I'm offended by how America-centric their religion is, to believe that Jesus was in America and that's not even enough for them but that civilization had to start in south Missouri.

At least Bill Maher and South Park agree with me. :)

[PrincessIneffabelle]

...snip...

At least Bill Maher and South Park agree with me. :)

You say that likes it's a good thing. :p

[RandFan]

Trying to articulate this- the Garden of Eden being in Missouri is nuttier than it being in heaven or in The Holy Land because the Mormons were mainstream Christians in a Christian world so coming up with something as out there squared as that Jesus was in America and the Garden of Eden was in Missouri and that God is an alien is laughable from their point of view. They were a wackjob cult to your perfectly sane, average variety churchgoer. They are a wackjob cult to non wackjobs and wackjobs alike.

I take exception to your assertion that Christianity is in any way whatsoever normal. It's normal to Christians and that's it. It's nutty. It's loony. I'm sorry but it really, really is. We can go on like this forever but you aren't going to change that. It's your kool-aid so you drink it. And I've got to say that there are things about Mormonism that are less loony tunes. Mainstream Christian notions about salvation are beyond bizarre. A good atheist will be punished the same as mass murderer. I'm sorry but that is beyond loony. Just because you don't think it is a big deal doesn't take the stink off of the [rule 8].

They took religion and made it thrice loonier.Assuming that it is so, SO WHAT?

I take exception to this kind of comparison because it gives the allusion that perhaps Christianity is normal in some way. No, no it's not. It's nutty, silly, childish and stupid. It really is. To get around all of the silly notions you have to insert god. Well, once you do that, and once you agree that god works in mysterious ways then Mormonism suddenly makes perfect sense, unless you were indoctrinated to believe that god had virtual sex with a virgin and this virgin gave birth to a deity.

Hey Eenie, here's a hint, BS. It's loony and dumb.

And like Bill Maher said, they believe in things that are demonstrably untrue. And Christians believe in things that are DEMONSTRABLY untrue.

That are a thousand and one percent untrue.Ditto Christianity.

Ok, so Jesus lived 2000 years ago and Mohammed lived at the turn of the millenium, we don't know if they really were prophets. This is supposed to prove what? Please clarify because this looks like a fallacy.

Mormons, on the other hand, believe in things that can be disproved by a first grade history textbook. Christianity can be disproved by a kindergartener. People don't walk on water.

Christianity is highly unlikely, Mormonism is demonstrably untrue. It's so ridiculous, it's indistinguishable from parody. Christianity is untrue. Period. End of of story. It's so ridiculous, it's indistinguishable from parody.

Hey, there are arguments on this forum about sites that people can't determine whether the sites are parody or serious Christian sites.

And in a smaller degree, I'm offended by how America-centric their religion is, to believe that Jesus was in America and that's not even enough for them but that civilization had to start in south Missouri. And I'm offended that Jews and Christians are so egotistical as to suppose that they have the true religion.

At least Bill Maher and South Park agree with me. :) Meh. I've concede that there is arguably a difference in degree. I don't concede that Maher or South Park take bleeding virgins (http://www.southparkstudios.com/show/display_episode.php?season=9&id1=914&id2=143) or Fatimas or any of the millions of otherinstances of stupid silly and childish BS as anything but loony.

I don't know what you think you are going to establish here but I'm perfectly happy to have the oportunity to demonstrate over and over the idiotic and silly BS from the bible. Thank you.

Christianity is loony tunes. Period. It's demonstrable BS. Bill Maher, South Park, Malcolm in the Middle, Penn and Teller, Simpsons, etc., etc., agree with me. :)

[l0rca]

I take exception to your assertion that Christianity is in any way whatsoever normal. It's normal to Christians and that's it. It's nutty. It's loony. I'm sorry but it really, really is. We can go on like this forever but you aren't going to change that. It's your kool-aid so you drink it. And I've got to say that there are things about Mormonism that are less loony tunes. Mainstream Christian notions about salvation are beyond bizarre. A good atheist will be punished the same as mass murderer. I'm sorry but that is beyond loony. Just because you don't think it is a big deal doesn't take the stink off of the [rule 8].


What an excellent diatribe. If only there was no rule 8, you'd have hit a home run.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I know that I'm never going to convince you but let me just say one last thing.

There are degrees of retarded and, yes, I think Christianity is more normal than an offshoot cult maybe if not by objective standards but just by the virtue of being part of the norm and more respected and institutionalized.

It's accepted weirdness so it's not weird to believe but a fringe religion like Scientology IS weird and you must be nuts to believe it in a way your average churchgoer isn't.

Believing in the garden of Eden- weird. Believing it was in Missouri- insanity.

I'm very sorry if I have offended you, it wasn't my intention.

[ChristineR]

Some flood-believers claim that there was only one continent before and just after the flood. The details are pretty hazy, but usually there was Pangaea before the flood and after the flood the Bering Strait was crossable for some time. If the animals can walk from Turkey to Missouri (did I mention the kangaroos hopping to Australia?), there's no reason why Adam and Eve couldn't have lived in Missouri.

So as far as objective geography, I find the Missouri claim at least as plausible as the flood claim. From a mythological point of view it makes a lot of sense. Missouri was a mysterious wilderness at the time, imagined to be wide open for exploitation. In that sense, Smith was making a comment about the nature of paradise.

[RandFan]

I know that I'm never going to convince you but let me just say one last thing. I've conceded that an argument can be made that Mormonism is in some aspects stranger so I'm not really sure what you are trying to convince me of.

There are degrees of retarded and, yes, I think Christianity is more normal than an offshoot cult maybe if not by objective standards but just by the virtue of being part of the norm and more respected and institutionalized. Which is not really saying anything other than it's a matter of preception which you and I agreed to along time ago.

Believing in the garden of Eden- weird. Believing it was in Missouri- insanity. I don't agree but it's really not important. You and I don't believe in either. You just want me to agree that Christianity is a special kind of lunacy because it is accepted by a lot of people. That's just argument ad populum.

I'm very sorry if I have offended you, it wasn't my intention.? I'm not offended. I'm not sure why you think I am. I just take exception (http://www.answers.com/topic/take-exception-to) to your arguments.

[Hokulele]

There are degrees of retarded and, yes, I think Christianity is more normal than an offshoot cult maybe if not by objective standards but just by the virtue of being part of the norm and more respected and institutionalized.


(Bolding mine.)

Beware of the fallacy of popularity. Many people once thought that having the earth revolve around the sun was completely nutty.

[streamlet]

Check out the book The Kingdom of the Cults. Your library should have it. It's a bit old, and written from a very Christian perspective, but it's a very readable explanation of the differences between Mormonism and more mainstream Christianity. (as far as I remember anyway. Been a while since I read it.)

My Mormon friend says "hell" is still way better than Earth, except that the people there don't get cool powers like time and space travel and becoming gods of their own planets.

MY cosmology comes from Doctor Who. :dalek: :dalek:

[DOC]

Christianity is also a fraud but it is older and more accepted.


Then you certainly must believe Thomas Jefferson was wrong to give his own money to 10 different Christian churches and Ben Franklin was wrong to give his own money to support a Presbyterian minister and Washington wrong to write 50 letters requesting chaplains and Lincoln was wrong to basically refer to God 11 times in his second inaugural address.

[slingblade]

Take it back to its own thread, Doc. Don't drag that smelly mess in here.

[RandFan]

Then you certainly must believe Thomas Jefferson was wrong to give his own money to 10 different Christian churches and Ben Franklin was wrong to give his own money to support a Presbyterian minister and Washington wrong to write 50 letters requesting chaplains and Lincoln was wrong to basically refer to God 11 times in his second inaugural address.I'm trying to make a rhetorical point. To the extent that Mormonism is a fraud Christianity is also a fraud. Mormons contribute to society and some people might think that is a worthy cause. Same with Christianity.

That said, the fact that Jefferson or Franklin gave money to religious organizations proves little to nothing. Both could have believed the recepients an exception.

I think Mormonism and Christianity are both, to an extent, frauds. That doesn't mean that I would never donate money to their charities. It just means that I'm less likely to do so. Both do a lot of great charity work so if I believed that the money was earmarked for some of that work then like Franklin and Jefferson I could be persuaded to give them money.

You are out of gas on that one Doc.

[Pup]

My Mormon friend says "hell" is still way better than Earth, except that the people there don't get cool powers like time and space travel and becoming gods of their own planets.

That's hell for people like us. Ask your friend about outer darkness.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I've conceded that an argument can be made that Mormonism is in some aspects stranger so I'm not really sure what you are trying to convince me of.


No! You were arguing the exact opposite! That it's no stranger.

But thank you for agreeing with me. :D

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Allright, now-

Explain to me about the holy underwear. :D

[RandFan]

No! You were arguing the exact opposite! That it's no stranger.
A.) I just said that an argument can be made. Not that I necassarily concur.
B.) I have conceded that before (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2632559#post2632559).
C.) I think an argument can be made that Christianity is just as loony if not more loony.

It depends a lot on prespective. Like I said, bleeding virgins and canablism is a bit loony for many non-Christians.




But thank you for agreeing with me. :D Where have you been (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2627557#post2627557)?

[RandFan]

Allright, now-

Explain to me about the holy underwear. :DExplain to me about the cannibalism.

[thaiboxerken]

Many ex-christian atheist think Mormonism sounds more goofy than mainstream christianity probably solely due to the fact that they've heard the claims of christianity longer than they have Mormonism.

Many christians believe jesus walked on water, make water into wine and was resurrected 3 days after death. Then when someone says jesus played guitar, they say "now that's a looney idea."

[Pup]

Allright, now-

Explain to me about the holy underwear. :D

Y'know, honestly, I think that's one of the more sensible parts of the Mormon religion. I mean, have you seen what the poor pope has to wear in public? And we won't even get into the orange robes and all that stuff that other religions dream up.

Deciding that members of the church can wear their religious garments under normal street clothes, at least shows some combination of practicality and common sense.

[slingblade]

Yes, but God should understand you need to take it off once in a while. Completely off.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Explain to me about the cannibalism.

Jeez, dude, lighten up!

Well, since you asked, it's purely symbolic. Of the Last Supper and Jesus' blood and flesh sacrifice to us. And it's a way to get a sip of wine in the morning.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Yes, but God should understand you need to take it off once in a while. Completely off.

What- you're not allowed to take it off?! You have to wear it to the beach and the pool?

[Pup]

What- you're not allowed to take it off?! You have to wear it to the beach and the pool?

They can take it off for "athletic activities." Yes, even those athletic activities (http://www.dearelder.com/index/inc_name/Mormon/title2/Mormon_Underwear) (third paragraph). It sounds like it ought to be a fertile field for finding something to ridicule, but of all the craziness, it just doesn't seem to offer as much as one would hope.

[RandFan]

Jeez, dude, lighten up!I've no idea why you think I need to lighten up. I'm contributing to the discussion. Perhaps you should ask the mods to move the thread to Humor.

FTR, I'm not upset. I'm not taking this too seriously. See When Mormons breed... (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=82875). No one makes fun of Mormons more than myself.

So chill out and stop accusing me of being upset or telling me to lighten up. It's entirely unnecessary. :)

Well, since you asked, it's purely symbolic.Not to Catholics.

Transubstantiation is the change of the substance of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ occurring in the Eucharist according to the teaching of some Christian Churches, including the Roman Catholic Church. In Greek, it is called μετουσίωσις (see Metousiosis).

[RandFan]

Yes, but God should understand you need to take it off once in a while. Completely off.There was nothing at all strange about them when they were introduced. They were just long underwear. When people started wearing less they became a bit bizarre but they were worn under the clothes but they were still long underwear. About the time I started wearing them the church released a line of two piece garments. They look like the underwear I buy now from Haynes. However they don't look anything like the underwear my wife wears.

In any event Mormons don't wear garments to the beach, the swimming pool, the gym, etc., etc.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I've no idea why you think I need to lighten up. I'm contributing to the discussion. Perhaps you should ask the mods to move the thread to Humor.

FTR, I'm not upset. I'm not taking this too seriously. See When Mormons breed... (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=82875). No one makes fun of Mormons more than myself.

So chill out and stop accusing me of being upset or telling me to lighten up. It's entirely unnecessary. :)


Maybe sarcasm and lightheartedness just doesn't always come across on the Internet but I'm the one just trying to laugh at Mormons and you're the one taking it seriously and debating me, almost as if you were offended.

Then I try to just drop the topic of Christianity vs. Mormonism with the "magic underwear" comment and you miss the tongue-in-cheekness and attack me again. The way you're talking to me, I think it is neccessary. You chill out.

Ok, misunderstanding. Let's just drop it. And explain to me about the magic underwear. Seriously. I want to know what that is about.

Do the LDS manufacture it themselves? Is it suppossed to be blessed or something? What are the chances it's just bulk bought from Walmart?

[RandFan]

Maybe sarcasm and lightheartedness just doesn't always come across on the Internet but I'm the one just trying to laugh at Mormons and you're the one taking it seriously and debating me, almost as if you were offended. Reading the OP it doesn't look like you are just trying to laugh at Mormons. You have asked some serious questions. I've tried to honestly answer those questions. I'm still not sure what you mean by "as if you were offended". I don't know how many times I can tell you that I'm not offended. Offended at what? I'm an atheist who states plainly that Joseph Smith was a fraud.

Then I try to just drop the topic of Christianity vs. Mormonism with the "magic underwear" comment and you miss the tongue-in-cheekness and attack me again. "Attack"? How did I "attack" you? I asked a question.

The way you're talking to me, I think it is neccessary. You chill out. :D Jeez. Let's get into an argument about who should chill out.

You chill out.
No, you chill out.
No, damn it, you chill out.
Listen you jerk you chill out.

Hey, let's both chill out. Of course, I was never in a state that needed chilling out but whatever.

Ok, misunderstanding. Let's just drop it. Sounds good.

And explain to me about the magic underwear. Seriously. I want to know what that is about.

Do the LDS manufacture it themselves? Is it suppossed to be blessed or something? What are the chances it's just bulk bought from Walmart?They manufacture it themselves. It's actually of very high quality. I don't think it's blessed. The underwear contains "sacred" symbols that are in fact masonic symbols.

[Kopji]

Food fight!

Exodus 31:10 ..."and the cloths of service"
Psalm 82:6 ..."Thus saith the Lord: Ye are gods and children of the Most High"

2 Sam. 12:8 ..."And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom"

Those passages are from the Bible, for benefit of the Christians who have never actualy read it.

Is the real complaint here that Mormons take the Bible too literally?

[RandFan]

One more thing, I am disappointed with people who are capable of critical thinking when it comes to the Mormon church but their faculties shut down when the critical thinking is targeted at their own silliness. The transubstantiation BS I posted above being a great example. That anyone takes seriously for one moment that a wafer turns into flesh and blood by eating it is simply beyond me. It's just a very good example of selective skepticism. If the bible wasn't chalk full of silly lunacy I wouldn't make a big deal of it but it is in fact chalk full of silly lunacy. That's not a difficult claim to substantiate.

Thanks,

Rand (not offended) Fan :)

[slingblade]

One more thing, I am disappointed with people who are capable of critical thinking when it comes to the Mormon church but their faculties shut down when the critical thinking is targeted at their own silliness. The transubstantiation BS I posted above being a great example. That anyone takes seriously for one moment that a wafer turns into flesh and blood by eating it is simply beyond me.

We got saltine crakers, broken into smaller pieces, and Welch's grape juice in tiny plastic cups. Just big thimbles, really. :)

My denomination didn't teach transubstantiation. It was purely symbolic, and no one lingered over the whole "flesh and blood" thing. It took me many years to even see the cannibalistic nature of it, at which point I was immediately disgusted and didn't do it again.

Thanks for correcting my info about the garment. I was told (many years ago by someone who said he'd been Momon) it was never to come off. That when bathing, you had to leave one leg of it looped around your ankle, hanging outside the tub. To change it, you put on one leg of a clean one before you removed the other leg of the dirty one. And I think I heard once that they had symbols embroidered on them.

Was any of that ever true?

[oxfordrocks]

The Mormon God comes from a planet called "Kolob"?
If we reverse this word, it becomes "Bolok", which I'm sure some of the British users will find amusing.

[RandFan]

Was any of that ever true? I honestly don't think so. These kind of apocryphal stories are common place though. Mormons, like most humans, can be mischievous. It's common to tell the uninitiated that the garments must be worn at all times, even during sex, and that a sheet must also be placed between the husband and wife with a small hole cut out into it.

[vexed]

I'm sorry but I think it's even more loonier than Christianity. Like Bill Maher said, it's weird even by the standards of other religions.


Bill Maher also said, if one religion is wrong they are probably ALL wrong.