Using the twoof to escape justice

[rwguinn]

All I can say is:
Oh, boy
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5550777,00.html

[Pardalis]

Should I say pathetic, or is this too redundant?

[jaydeehess]

While there is not enough information in the article to determine his guilt or innocence in his wife's murder, how he could write a 12 page letter without being at all specific is certainly odd.

Basically he is stating that he noticed that in the aftermath of the destruction that there were unspecified objects that were missing and which could only have been removed by truck. He does not say how he knew that said object would have been in the offices, or when he first became aware that it had been in the office, prior to 9/11, nor does he say anything that would explain why it should not have been removed for any other purpose. This just might cast suspicion upon the administration if such details were known.

However he then goes on to state that files were removed, supposedly secret, irreplacable files. With that, one has to wonder how he could be sure that a file, a specific file was not in the rubble of the buildings at the WTC? Why would a videographer know of the existance of such a file?

So it certainly seems that he is following a common CT path in coming up with details that make no sense while not having the details that would really make a difference in determining the veracity of his statements. Given then, that his statements concerning 9/11 cast a severe doubt on his truthfullness, it colours his statements about his innocence in regards to his wife's death. If he is indeed innocent but making stuff up about 9/11 in order to garner asylum from the Argentine gov't, then he is his own worst enemy, IMHO.

[VespaGuy]

"As soon as I returned home (to Denver) after the charge was dismissed and I was released from jail, I began to be harassed constantly. Cars often followed me wherever I drove. Men parked in front of my house for hours. I discovered doors to my house unlocked. Even my outdoor security lights were unscrewed."

Sorry, folks. This was my fault. The big guys spent so much money on the 9/11 operation that they had to hire my low budget NWO agent operation for coverup duties. We've got a pretty good crew, but I can't tell you how many times I had to tell them, "Look, when you're done snooping in somebody's house, re-lock the doors!".
And the security light thing? That's news to me. That must have been Moe. He's new, too. We didn't even plant any bugs in the lights, Moe just likes to unscrew stuff. I'll talk to him.
And the parking in front of the house thing? Yeah. That was us. You know, sometimes you forget that just because you work for an invisible, imaginary orginization, it doesn't mean you actually are invisible.

I think I really learned something here:
Re-lock doors.
Screw lights back in.
Park around corner instead of directly in front of house.

We'll try to do better next time.

[capracus]

Why would an organization that was willing to murder tens of thousands on 9/11 resort to the legal system to silence a potential threat? Would you feel any safer in Argentina? Mr. Sonnenfeld appears to be hiding something and I don't think it has anything to do with 9/11.

[TellyKNeasuss]

deleted

[chipmunk stew]

One of the following coincidences is significant. The other is meaningless.

The RMN story also neglects to mention that his deceased first wife had file for legal separation and had obtained a court order ordering him to vacate their house on New Year's Day 2002, which just coincidentally happened to be the day she died.

Sonnenfeld said he was arrested by Interpol agents on the new Denver charges a week after delivering a demo video of 9/11 footage to a TV producer in Argentina.

"I find that extremely coincidental," he said.

I leave it as an exercise to the interested student to work out which is which. Keep your irony meters handy, kids.

[rwguinn]

It's not for nothing that the Rocky Mountain News is often called the Rocky Mountain Scandal Sheet. Note that they neglected to talk to anyone in the District Attorney's office. Though the RMN story says that the sole reason for re-filing the murder charge against Sonnenfeld was the claims of 2 inmates, this old article from a TV station says that additional forensic evidence was collected:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/3703110/detail.html (http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/3703110/detail.htm)

The RMN story also neglects to mention that his deceased first wife had file for legal separation and had obtained a court order ordering him to vacate their house on New Year's Day 2002, which just coincidentally happened to be the day she died.
:confused: Why did you bring the strawman in from the cornfield?
I lived in Denver for 20 years. The thread here is about the use of CT (9-11 specifically) to avoid having to face the justice system. It is not whether he is guilty or not. Please stick to the subject.

[rwguinn]

One of the following coincidences is significant. The other is meaningless.





I leave it as an exercise to the interested student to work out which is which. Keep your irony meters handy, kids.

Ohhh--OOh! maybe one of them isn't actually a coincidence? Could that actually be possible?

[ob986s]

Why would an organization that was willing to murder tens of thousands on 9/11 resort to the legal system to silence a potential threat? Would you feel any safer in Argentina? Mr. Sonnenfeld appears to be hiding something and I don't think it has anything to do with 9/11.

Right?

The guys spends 7 months in an Argentinian Prison and walks out alive because the NWO would rather bring him to Denver on false charges than to simply have him killed in a Prison known as "darkest penal hellhole in all Argentina." The NWO certainly works in mysterious ways

Jon

[8den]

Its always amazing how someone in the truth movement can manage to defy expectations and plumb new depths of contemptable behaviour.

[qarnos]

Its always amazing how someone in the truth movement can manage to defy expectations and plumb new depths of contemptable behaviour.

I don't know if I'd say he's "in" the truth movement - he's just using it to his advantage, knowing that all the kooks will jump on board to defend him without giving it a seconds thought.

If Argentinians are stupid, he might even get away with it.

[8den]

I don't know if I'd say he's "in" the truth movement - he's just using it to his advantage, knowing that all the kooks will jump on board to defend him without giving it a seconds thought.

If Argentinians are stupid, he might even get away with it.

Fair point, we don't know if was always a hardcore truther, or just using it to his advantage.


Hey just like Dylan and Co!

[qarnos]

Fair point, we don't know if was always a hardcore truther, or just using it to his advantage.


Hey just like Dylan and Co!

The same thought crossed my mind! :D

But clearly this guy doesn't believe what he is saying. Whether Dylan does or not is at least debatable.

[Skiltch]

I have a dumb legal question -- it says the charges were dismissed once a suicide note was found, then reinstated once some other guys said they heard the truther confess. Doesn't taht violate double jeopardy?

[slyjoe]

I have a dumb legal question -- it says the charges were dismissed once a suicide note was found, then reinstated once some other guys said they heard the truther confess. Doesn't taht violate double jeopardy?

No - double jeopardy says you can't be judged guilty or innocent at trial and be retried for the same crime.

[ktesibios]

I have a dumb legal question -- it says the charges were dismissed once a suicide note was found, then reinstated once some other guys said they heard the truther confess. Doesn't taht violate double jeopardy?

No. If he were tried and acquitted and then charged and tried again for the same crime, that would violate the part of the 5th amendment which reads:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

The lawyers among us can doubtless provide more detail, but the simple filing and withdrawing of criminal charges doesn't meet that standard.

[jaydeehess]

And the security light thing? That's news to me. That must have been Moe. He's new, too. We didn't even plant any bugs in the lights, Moe just likes to unscrew stuff. I'll talk to him.
.

Unscrewing security lamps is a common thing for a B&E theif to do. People mount security lights so that when the lamp burns out it will be easy to reach and change. Well if you mount it within easy reach then a burglar need not carry a ladder with him to defeat your "security" lights.

No - double jeopardy says you can't be judged guilty or innocent at trial and be retried for the same crime.

Indeed, he never went to trial and therefore jepardy is not attached. The case would have been dismissed "without prejudice" IIRC (ask LashL to confirm, but I believe that is the term used to denote that the charge can be brought again by the D.A. , at a later date.)

[Alzke]

Hey guys, great work "debunking" this mans claims of innocence.

You fellas sure can be some shameless hypocrites! :)

[qarnos]

:tr:

[rwguinn]

Hey guys, great work "debunking" this mans claims of innocence.

You fellas sure can be some shameless hypocrites! :)

No one here has judged him on guilt or innocence regarding the murder charge. What we have judged is his willingness to use 9-11 CT to avoid the process where guilt might be established. The story he is using plays into the hands of the CTers, and casts some doubt on his veracity. Since Argentina does not like us (or rather, their leaders do not), and trial in abstentia is pretty much a no-no here, there is no closure for anybody.
"The guilty flee...."

[LashL]

I have a dumb legal question -- it says the charges were dismissed once a suicide note was found, then reinstated once some other guys said they heard the truther confess. Doesn't taht violate double jeopardy?

It's not a dumb question, Skiltch. See below.

No - double jeopardy says you can't be judged guilty or innocent at trial and be retried for the same crime.

Not quite, but see below.

No. If he were tried and acquitted and then charged and tried again for the same crime, that would violate the part of the 5th amendment which reads:

Yes, double jeopardy would certainly apply in those circumstances.

The lawyers among us can doubtless provide more detail, but the simple filing and withdrawing of criminal charges doesn't meet that standard.

That is correct.

Indeed, he never went to trial and therefore jepardy is not attached. The case would have been dismissed "without prejudice" IIRC (ask LashL to confirm, but I believe that is the term used to denote that the charge can be brought again by the D.A. , at a later date.)

You are correct that as the charges were dismissed before trial, jeopardy had not attached. Jeopardy does not attach with regard to criminal charges until
(a) if a jury trial, when the jury is sworn;
(b) if a bench trial, when the first witness is sworn and the court begins to hear evidence.

You are also correct that as he never went to trial, and the indictment was simply dismissed, it would have been "without prejudice" to the prosecution's right to later try him on charges arising out of the same events, as jeopardy had not yet attached.

[chipmunk stew]

Hey guys, great work "debunking" this mans claims of innocence.

You fellas sure can be some shameless hypocrites! :)
Eh?

[mortimer]

While this guy sounds nutty, I have a real problem using jailhouse snitches as witnesses in a murder trial...

[LashL]

While this guy sounds nutty, I have a real problem using jailhouse snitches as witnesses in a murder trial...

Agreed. In Canada, this is recognized judicially to the extent that specific jury instructions are given about the dangers of accepting jailhouse informant testimony in such instances, but that is a separate issue outside of the parameters of this thread in this sub-forum, so I'll leave it at that for now :)

[Gravy]

Does anyone know what this strange man claims to have seen in the smoldering ruins? The face of the devil, perhaps? "9/11" in the smoke?

District Attorneys deal with even more excuses than we do:

"I have heard that nonsense from him . . . but then he has nothing to back it up," she said."

[Skiltch]

Thanks, everyone.

[Slayhamlet]

Hey guys, great work "debunking" this mans claims of innocence.

You fellas sure can be some shameless hypocrites! :)

Your 9/11 agnosticism is shining through bright and clear for all to see.