Silverstein to get $2 Billion More

[parky76]

http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?stid=1&aid=70000

Thats in addition to the $2.4 Billion he has already received. Thats a grand total of $4.2 billion in insurance money from the WTC. How does this compare to new building costs and the amount of money being forked over by the governmant for construction?

Is Mr. Silverstein at a loss..or gain?

[Rob Lister]

[URL]
Is Mr. Silverstein at a loss..or gain?

yes

[Alt+F4]

I'd say at a loss. From today's New York Times article on the same topic:

The Port Authority and Mr. Silverstein had to relinquish their claim that the insurance companies owed in excess of $500 million in interest relating to delays in making the payments.

Linky:http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/23/nyregion/23cnd-insure.html?hp

[jhunter1163]

The Freedom Tower is gonna cost $12 billion. I'd venture that, even with some public money added, he's going to end up taking on a good deal more debt before all is said and done.

[firecoins]

So when is Silverstein going to "pull" the money in?

[rymdman]

"Pull zhe strings! Pull zhe strings!"

I have never managed to recover the original frame of reference for the word "Pull" after Bela Lugosi repeatedly knuckled it in my mind in 'Glen or Glenda' (Ed Wood, 1953).

"Bevare! Bevare! Bevare of the big green dragon that sits on your doorstep. He eats little boys! Puppy dog tails and big, fat snails! Bevare! Take care! Bevare!"

[Mince]

...even with some public money added, he's going to end up taking on a good deal more debt before all is said and done.


Maybe he should have thought of that before he decided to kill three thousand people.















I'm kidding truthers...I'm kidding.

[PhantomWolf]

He'll just blow up the news ones to pay off the debt for rebuilding them.

[Kryptos]

$2 billion more than what? He's not getting anything more than what the 2004 court settlement specified. Now the insurance companies are finally paying the balance.

The insurance policy was $3.5 billion, though he tried to argue the attacks were two events (e.g. he should get $7 billion). The 2004 court settlement was that the insurance companies owed a maximum of $4.6 billion. Up to this point, the insurance companies had paid out $2.55 billion. They are finally paying out the rest of the settlement (not quite the $4.6 billion, but close). And the Port Authority is getting $870 million of this $2 billion.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/24/nyregion/24insure.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2007/05/23/79970.htm

Silverstein has paid hundreds of millions of dollars in legal expenses. He is also paying $100 million/year in base rent, even though he has no buildings (no revenue) on the WTC site. Estimated costs for rebuilding the site are $7 billion, which well exceeds the $4.6 billion he and the Port Authority are receiving in insurance money. The Port Authority will finance part of the costs of the Freedom Tower with bonds (as they financed the WTC in the 1960s), but Silverstein is still short on costs to build the rest of the WTC site. Also, is $7 billion realistic? In the 1960s, the WTC ended up costing 2-3 times original cost estimates to build.

[LashL]

$2 billion more than what? He's not getting anything more than what the 2004 court settlement specified. Now the insurance companies are finally paying the balance.

The insurance policy was $3.5 billion, though he tried to argue the attacks were two events (e.g. he should get $7 billion). The 2004 court settlement was that the insurance companies owed a maximum of $4.6 billion. Up to this point, the insurance companies had paid out $2.55 billion. They are finally paying out the rest of the settlement (not quite the $4.6 billion, but close). And the Port Authority is getting $870 million of this $2 billion.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/24/nyregion/24insure.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2007/05/23/79970.htm

Silverstein has paid hundreds of millions of dollars in legal expenses. He is also paying $100 million/year in base rent, even though he has no buildings (no revenue) on the WTC site. Estimated costs for rebuilding the site are $7 billion, which well exceeds the $4.6 billion he and the Port Authority are receiving in insurance money. The Port Authority will finance part of the costs of the Freedom Tower with bonds (as they financed the WTC in the 1960s), but Silverstein is still short on costs to build the rest of the WTC site. Also, is $7 billion realistic? In the 1960s, the WTC ended up costing 2-3 times original cost estimates to build.


Quite right. As noted in the previous threads here about the insurance issues, the various settlements and the two trial judgments set out the maximum limits that each of the numerous insurers were liable for and, where there remained issues of how much of the maximums the insurers were liable for (in some instances, this was not at issue), the next step was for them to go through a process by which it would be ascertained the precise figures that the insurers would be required to pay pursuant to the policies and the judgments.

ETA: And when all is said and done, no, I doubt that the $7b rebuilding figure is realistic. I suspect that it will cost significantly more than that.

[knot]

Has anyone ever thought that they were considering "pulling" the building since the building was unsafe. Perhaps it was coincidence the building came down on it's own.

[Gravy]

The Freedom Tower is gonna cost $12 billion. I'd venture that, even with some public money added, he's going to end up taking on a good deal more debt before all is said and done.Silverstein isn't building the Freedom Tower, which will cost somewhere between 2 and 3 billion. That's a Port Authority project. He is building three other superskyscrapers on the site. Lots more info here (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/rebuildingtheworldtradecentersiteandenvi2).

[Gravy]

Has anyone ever thought that they were considering "pulling" the building since the building was unsafe. Perhaps it was coincidence the building came down on it's own.1) They were referring to pulling the firefighting operation.

2) Pull isn't used in demolitions circles to mean "demolish with explosives."

3) How would they do that? See here (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/introduction) for more info.

[Rahne Everson]

Silverstein isn't building the Freedom Tower, which will cost somewhere between 2 and 3 billion. That's a Port Authority project. He is building three other superskyscrapers on the site. Lots more info here (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/rebuildingtheworldtradecentersiteandenvi2).

Towers 2, 3, and 4? (Plus he has the new WTC 7 building)

[Quad4_72]

1) They were referring to pulling the firefighting operation.

2) Pull isn't used in demolitions circles to mean "demolish with explosives."



Do you ever get tired of explaining that?

[knot]

Yet another possible truther angle shot down.

[knot]

1) They were referring to pulling the firefighting operation.

2) Pull isn't used in demolitions circles to mean "demolish with explosives."

3) How would they do that? See here (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/introduction) for more info.

Who cares? That's what most of the truthers, that believe in the controlled demolition, think. I think.

The fact is, it came down on it's own due to severe damage.

[Gravy]

Towers 2, 3, and 4? (Plus he has the new WTC 7 building)Yep. They're the three to the right. The tallest will be taller than the Empire State Building.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/87904611258ea0558.jpg

[PhantomWolf]

Are the two squares in the front of the image memorials for victims where the original towers were?

[Gravy]

Are the two squares in the front of the image memorials for victims where the original towers were?Yes, those are the footprints of the towers. Here's a slide show of how the memorial should look (http://www.renewnyc.com/images_WMS/memorial_final/slides/slide1.asp).

[Arus808]

yup. representation of their actual placement in that area.

[JamesB]

The post on this at 911 blogger is full of angry denunciations of his profiteering and fraud. I asked them why they didn't contact the insurance companies with all of their foolproof evidence of massive insurance fraud, the potential rewards could run into the hundreds of millions.

Needless to say, I have not received a response.

[ref]

Silverstein isn't building the Freedom Tower, which will cost somewhere between 2 and 3 billion. That's a Port Authority project. He is building three other superskyscrapers on the site. Lots more info here (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/rebuildingtheworldtradecentersiteandenvi2).

How long did it take for you to build those sites of yours? I mean, there is so much info there it's unbelievable.

[Gravy]

How long did it take for you to build those sites of yours? I mean, there is so much info there it's unbelievable.Much more time than you might think, because in December I had two hard drives fail: one with all the links that I had meticulously categorized since last April, and another with the backup of those links. I had to rebuild everything from square 1, starting with 911myths.com.

[ref]

Much more time than you might think, because in December I had two hard drives fail: one with all the links that I had meticulously categorized since last April, and another with the backup of those links. I had to rebuild everything from square 1, starting with 911myths.com.

Hard drive failures are the worst. A friend of mine nowadays saves all his important stuff to gmail, because there so much storage space there and he can always retrieve the files later, even if everything fails. I think that's quite a good backup to have. Glad you took time to rebuild :) May the force be with the hard drives from now on.

[MG1962]

Yes, those are the footprints of the towers. Here's a slide show of how the memorial should look (http://www.renewnyc.com/images_WMS/memorial_final/slides/slide1.asp).

Man the hair stood up the back of neck when watched the slides on the memorials, breathtakingly simple yet incredibly elegent.

[stilicho]

It was a while ago on another forum that I posted numerous links to insurance industry trade papers about all this. Likely, none of the "truthers" could believe that insurance consortiums could be suing the "evil Larry Jewish-Surname" and lose without some kind of monkey business going on. I've even seen "truthers" claim that New York and American taxpayers will be out of pocket for the settlements to "Jew Larry".

There is an enduring myth that he paid $100,000 to the Port Authority, got a risk-free lease, and blew up his assets to profit, first, $3.5 billion and then doubled it because he suckered Swiss Re and about 24 other insurers out of it by manipulating the courts.

None of this passes even the most casual test. And, when presented by industry trade papers explaining otherwise, "truthers" just ignore them and focus on New York State bonds raised to rebuild and figure that must cover the whole cost.

Frankly, I would not envy "Pull-It-Larry" at all in these circumstances. Simply raising capital or finding fresh insurers must be a terrible burden on a rather courageous entrepreneur. Plus, dealing with idiots carrying megaphones on the perimeter of his properties.

[SezMe]

If I was a New York company, I would not rent space in the Freedom Tower or the nearby buildings on the theory that they are THE prime target for the next attack. Have there been any credible analyses of the "rentability" of the proposed buildings?

[Kryptos]

If I was a New York company, I would not rent space in the Freedom Tower or the nearby buildings on the theory that they are THE prime target for the next attack. Have there been any credible analyses of the "rentability" of the proposed buildings?

The federal government, along with the New York State government, will be occupying a large portion of the Freedom Tower. The Port Authority will occupy space in Tower 4.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

The federal government, along with the New York State government, will be occupying a large portion of the Freedom Tower. The Port Authority will occupy space in Tower 4.

1st thought: Oh gawd, the twoofers are gonna be all over that like stink on a guy living in his parents basement who hasn't showered in a week.

2nd thought: Is there anyone who could rent floor space in the new WTC that the twoofers wouldn't collectively soil their panties over?

[pgwenthold]

The post on this at 911 blogger is full of angry denunciations of his profiteering and fraud. I asked them why they didn't contact the insurance companies with all of their foolproof evidence of massive insurance fraud, the potential rewards could run into the hundreds of millions.

Needless to say, I have not received a response.


What insurance company is this that will pay out more than the cost of the actual loss? I know that whenever I have damage and am trying to get the insurance to cover it, the best I can do is to get them to cover the cost of auto repair. When I had to do home repairs or replace a totalled vehicle, they came in way under what they should have (in terms of the vehicle, they gave us the price of the cheapest comparison they could find after scanning the nationwide websites).

Who in the heck is making a profit from insurance coverage? I'd really love to to use their insurance company.

[JonnyFive]

What insurance company is this that will pay out more than the cost of the actual loss? I know that whenever I have damage and am trying to get the insurance to cover it, the best I can do is to get them to cover the cost of auto repair. When I had to do home repairs or replace a totalled vehicle, they came in way under what they should have (in terms of the vehicle, they gave us the price of the cheapest comparison they could find after scanning the nationwide websites).

Who in the heck is making a profit from insurance coverage? I'd really love to to use their insurance company.

I'll tell you: None of them. As I explained in my insurance fraud thread, it's about compensating people for loss, not ensuring they get a healthy profit, or else the companies wouldn't be in business. Insurance is a mechanism used to spread concentrated risk out over time in the form of insurance premium payments. You transfer your risk to the insurance company, and pay them to take it.

Anyhow, it sounds like the final judgement is a little over a hundred million less than the original judgment. I saw a blurb in the paper about it. Between Silverstein and the PA, about four and a half billion are being paid out. They originally sought over 7 billion, but that didn't happen.

Apparently, the money is in fact going right back into construction of the new Freedom Tower.

I've noticed that lately the Truthers are moving away from the original "insurance for profit" claims and more into "destroyed the building to replace it because it was a white elephant" claims. I see this as progress. They're increasingly being forced from stupid theory to stupid theory as the original theories are shown to be ludicrous ($160 billion in gold). They move into the "seems plausible" margins, like claiming the WTC was a nearly-condemned building that wasn't worth saving, so it had to be demolished (never mind the obvious and numerous issues with this variation on the old insurance fraud claim).

Unfortunately for them, this involves increasing levels of technicality and specificity, and the Truthers aren't doing a very good job of arguing on those levels. They need generality and vagueness to make their theories seem semi-plausible.

[geni]

Who in the heck is making a profit from insurance coverage?


Insurance companies


I'd really love to to use their insurance company.

A lot of insurance fraud is based on being able to liquidise assets rather than make an actual profit.

[JonnyFive]

Insurance companies

:D

ETA: Of course, there is always the alternative of bearing the risk without help from the insurance companies. That happens from time to time with self-insurance systems, but it's rare to see it outside of very large companies at all. The truth is that most people and companies can't afford the risk involved with not having the insurance, which is why they purchase it.

In the WTC case, there were many companies involved in spreading the risk. Each would be responsible for a few million dollars of coverage, in various layers. Large cases are almost always cases in which reinsurance is used. It's a very specialized, highly profitable market, but one that invovles huge potential risk if it isn't underwritten with care.

A lot of insurance fraud is based on being able to liquidise assets rather than make an actual profit.

Sure, that's true of property/casualty and life insurance (killing someone for their life insurance could be considered "liquidating" an asset, I suppose). With disability and health insurance, you see false claims and exaggerated claims being filed instead, as there aren't tangible assets being covered.

The other type of fraud that can be done with P&C lines is obtaining excessive coverage for something before you intentionally destroy it.

In any case, when the amount of money is large, the insurance companies will always be more diligent with investigating it, and we will investigate suspicious acitivity. My company had a case last year where the company was making disability claims for employees they claimed weren't eligible for coverage, and therefore they weren't paying for them. Riiiiight.

I think this is why the CTists have moved away from the "Silverstein profitted" theory. They seem to feel that the theory of the WTC as a white elephant that would be better off destroyed is more plausible. Then the insurance just becomes a cherry on top to help Silverstein and the PA rebuild. There are other reasons that theory doesn't work, but it gives the CTists some "wiggle room."