High School Lecture on 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

[Brainster]

Here is a lecture that I delivered to two high school classes this morning. A friend of mine teaches history to teens (my impression is that the youngsters in this class were about 15 years old or so).

I tried to weave in some multimedia and was able to use Google Video to good effect. YouTube is a little more picky if you want to skip ahead to a particular point in a video. I had the entire presentation on a CD Rom, with the text in Word format, and a set of a couple dozen photographs. I had copied all the links from the lecture over to a Word document file so I could quickly go to the websites that I needed to show the information.

It's geared more towards innoculation than anything else; I'll cheerfully admit that I was not trying to give a balanced presentation.

Feel free to make suggestions and use the material. I will probably be giving this presentation again in the future. I'd love to get more amusing stuff in here as well; the kids definitely loved Sophia's clunkety-clunk bit and the South Park clip (the segment I showed was the White House scene where President Bush explains the plot). It ran about 40 minutes, which allowed 10 minutes for questions.

Greetings, fellow guardians of history. I hoped to get a little laughter out of that line, and to be honest with you, a year and a half ago, I would never have considered myself to be a guardian of history either. But life has many surprises for us along the way, and that’s turned out to be one of my duties.

Let’s talk about some famous dates in recent history:

December 7, 1941: Pearl Harbor Attacked

November 22, 1963: President Kennedy Assassinated

September 11, 2001: Terrorist Attacks on New York and Washington DC

Famously disastrous days in the history of the United States.

Also famously days subject to conspiracy theories.

Pearl Harbor conspiracy theory: That FDR knew the Japanese plan and allowed the attacks to happen to draw us into war.

JFK conspiracy theory: There are many but most say that JFK was killed because he was standing in the way of something that Lyndon Johnson did, with escalation of the Vietnam War a common belief.

9-11 conspiracy theory: Bush administration planned and executed the 9-11 attacks or allowed them to happen without planning them.

Common aspects of all three conspiracy theories:

All claim that the government is an all-knowing and all-powerful force, which cannot have failed without failing intentionally.

All seize on minor differences between official reports and newspaper accounts at the time, while ignoring similarities.

All seek to absolve the real perpetrators and to blame others, usually political or other opponents.

Let’s focus on 9-11-01. I’m sure that most of you can remember where you were and what you were doing that day a whole lot better than you can remember 9-21-01 or 9-1-01. This is because 9-11-01 was an extraordinarily significant day in world history, and you witnessed it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJig1wj7oLI

(Cut at 50 seconds)

There is a basic story of 9-11 as most of us understand it. We know that 19 hijackers who were members of Al Qaeda took over four passenger jets and directed them at targets including the Twin Towers and the Pentagon and succeeded in hitting those buildings. The fourth jet, which was intended to crash into another landmark, but this plan was foiled by the heroism of the passengers on Flight 93.

But there is also another story out there that may be more compelling to some. It says that 9-11 was an inside job, that the US government under President Bush and Vice President Cheney either orchestrated the attacks or allowed them to happen. Their goals were to convince the American people to support the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Now, I want to emphasize here that you can be opposed to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq without believing in the conspiracy theory. You can believe that Bush and Cheney planned to attack Iraq all along and that 9-11 gave them an excuse, without believing in the conspiracy theory. In fact, some of the fiercest opponents of the Bush Administration do not believe in the conspiracy theories. Not a single Democrat currently in Congress who has endorsed the claim that 9-11 was an inside job.

Let’s talk very briefly about the difference between legitimate investigations and conspiracy theories. If you’re legitimately interested in investigating responsibility for 9-11, you’d pretty quickly come to the conclusion that it was Al Qaeda based on the following facts:

1. Phone calls from passengers reported Arabic-looking men had hijacked the planes.
2. 4-5 men with Arabic-sounding names on each flight.
3. One man with an Arabic-sounding name and a pilot’s license on each flight.
4. Ties between the men with Arabic-sounding names and each other and Al Qaeda.
5. History of Al Qaeda terrorist attacks against US targets including USS Cole bombing in 2000 and US embassy bombings in Africa in 1998.

On the other hand, if you’re a conspiracy theorist, you start with the conclusion (Bush/Cheney did it) and sift backwards through the evidence looking for information that supports that “theory”.

This is an extremely difficult task, if you think about it for a second. We can believe that radical Islamic militants would be willing to kill themselves for their cause as there are many examples of them doing that: Palestinian suicide bombers, the July 7, 2005 London subway bombers, etc. But what would motivate the pilots of four US airliners to crash themselves into buildings, thereby killing not only lots of other people, but themselves?

So the theorists concoct elaborate theories. Maybe the US military hijacked the planes with commandos disguised as Arabs, rendered the passengers and pilots unconscious, set the planes on remote control, and parachuted to safety. Or they might propose that the original planes were landed at an Air Force base and substitute unmanned planes were sent to the targets. Here’s a good summary of a conspiracy theory from the show South Park:

(start at 14:41)

You can see how elaborate the scheme has to be to get around the actual facts. And, that is only one “theory” among many. The so-called 9-11 Truth Movement has more flavors than Baskin-Robbins. Some people think the Israelis did it, some say that there were no planes used at all, just computer graphics inserted into our TVs that looked like planes. Some say there were Arab hijackers, but they were just fall guys for the real plotters.

A particularly popular conspiracy theory movie right now is Loose Change. Loose Change claims that all four planes were diverted to an Air Force base somewhere and the passengers were all loaded onto Flight 93, which was diverted to Cleveland, where the passengers were herded into a NASA building and presumably executed. The World Trade Center Towers were hit by Air Force refueling tankers made to look like passenger planes, the Pentagon was hit by a cruise missile, and the cellphone calls were faked using voice morphing software.

This is pretty crazy stuff, but Loose Change has a catchy, hip-hop soundtrack, some interesting computer animation, and it throws supposed facts at you so quickly that you don’t have time to think much about what they’re saying. It’s also blatantly dishonest and manipulative. Let’s take a look at one particularly outrageous example. Talking about Shanksville, Pennsylvania, where Flight 93 crashed, Dylan Avery, the filmmaker, tries to make it sound like the local coroner didn’t believe that a plane had crashed there:

(Show LC2 at 57:50)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2301934902458285549&q=Loose+Change&hl=en

However, if you look at the article this quote was pulled from, you get quite a different impression:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A56110-2002May8

Miller was among the very first to arrive after 10:06 on the magnificently sunny morning of September 11. He was stunned at how small the smoking crater looked, he says, "like someone took a scrap truck, dug a 10-foot ditch and dumped all this trash into it." Once he was able to absorb the scene, Miller says, "I stopped being coroner after about 20 minutes, because there were no bodies there. It became like a giant funeral service." As a funeral director, Miller says, he is honored and humbled to preside over what has become essentially an immense cemetery stretching far into the scenic wooded mountain ridge. He considers it the final resting place of 40 national heroes.

Now, would you agree that the movie created a false impression of what Wally Miller felt, by carefully snipping out that last part of his quote about “It became like a giant funeral service.”? This is a technique the conspiracy theorists use known as quote-mining.

Here’s another trick used in Loose Change. When discussing the size of the hole in the Pentagon (to show that it was hit by a cruise missile):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2301934902458285549&q=Loose+Change&hl=en
(Show LC2 at 21:44-22:05, pause at that point)

Note that the fire truck spraying foam in this shot obscures the entire first floor of the Pentagon. When we look at pictures showing the Pentagon before the fire truck arrives, we get a very different idea:

(Show Pentagon Hole Photograph)

Note as well (flip back to LC2E) that the fire truck appears to be spraying foam on the fire. Why is that significant? Because firemen use foam on gasoline and jet fuel fires, not on the kind of fire you’d get from a cruise missile hit, which would be battled with water.

If you take the time to examine all the claims in Loose Change as I have done, you will see these types of dishonest tricks used over and over again.

What’s it all about?

(Show Money 1 and Money 2 )

For the people at the top, it’s all about money. There is a lot of money to be made in conspiracy theories these days. For the successful movie director or book author there are direct sales of the video or book, additional sales of tee shirts and other items. There are conferences where the attendees may spend up to $60 a day just to attend.

That’s not to say that everybody’s motivation is purely greed. There are many members of the so-called “Truth Movement” who sincerely believe that exposing 9-11 as an inside job will get rid of other things they may not like, like the Bush/Cheney Administration, the Iraq War, the Patriot Act and other things that have come about as a result of 9-11.

Do these people really care about the victims of 9-11? I’ll let you judge for yourselves. Here’s radio talk show host Alex Jones talking about how respectful they’re going to be at Ground Zero last September 11.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1287461440043399975&q=Mark+Iradian&hl=en

(start at 1:24)

As you can see, their rhetoric fell a little short of reality. Thousands of people were at the WTC site to pay their respects to family members who died in the buildings. Shouting over a bullhorn at those people was completely inappropriate.

Let’s take a look at some of the sillier ideas that 9-11 Conspiracy Theorists have come up with.

One experimenter decided to try to replicate the fires in the World Trade Center, but since he didn’t have a 110-story building handy, he had to make do with what was available:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=56836&mesg_id=56836

As you can see, he cut the fencing to simulate the plane crashing into the building, poured some kerosene on an old newspaper, and burned it as part of his “scientific” approach.

Another 9-11 Conspiracy Theorist, this one actually a professor at a major university, compared the two towers to a tree:

“And recently I gave a talk at an engineering conference where I showed some diagrams of the buildings being built and I showed, “If this were a tree and the Keebler elves cut out this big chunk out of the side here, for their little house, where their dwelling is. Would that affect the towers?” And everyone in the room could see, that no, the way the structure is designed, it can’t bring it down.”

(show Keebler photo)

But perhaps my favorite crazy thing said by a 9-11 Conspiracy theorist was by a movie director named Sofia who came up with this explanation for why the Twin Towers should not have collapsed so quickly:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6243624912447824934

(start at 2:34:00)

Why she thinks she should be able to say clunkety clunk for every floor collapsing is not explained.

Let me conclude here by noting that you have to be very careful when doing your own research into 9-11. The conspiracy theorists have been around for a long time and so their websites commonly come up first when you Google 9-11 related material. For example, here’s a sign that the 9-11 people use to entice people into the movement:

(show Google WTC 7 picture)

Why do you think they suggest people Google WTC-7? Because when you do, 9 of the top 10 and 17 of the top 20 websites that Google gives you belong to conspiracy theory proponents. Always be a careful consumer of information. The internet is terrific if you want to quickly look up who was the 26th president of the United States, but on any issue with any kind of controversy, you need to be very cautious about which sites you accept information from. Of course, sometimes books are no better; here’s a book I found in the Phoenix Public Library called “Flight 93 Revealed”. One of the things I like to do with these conspiracy theory books is see how long it takes them to make a major mistake or lie. This one might just set the record with a glaring error in the very first sentence:

“The official story of Flight 93 tells of four men who checked in at the United Airlines ticket counter at Boston Logan airport on 11 September 2001 bound for Los Angeles on United 93, a Boeing 757 airliner.”

Of course, if they did the person at the ticket counter would have informed them, “I’m sorry sirs, but your plane isn’t leaving from Boston Logan, it’s leaving from Newark, New Jersey.”

I have a handout sheet that lists some reputable websites where you can learn more about these topics.

Now, let’s go to questions and answers. (Wing it!)

Quick wrap-up: I talked a little bit at the beginning about how we’re all guardians of history. Each of us makes our own conclusions about what to believe happened on 9-11 based on what we’ve seen, what we’ve read, and what we’ve watched. I hope that all of you will reach the right conclusion, because that conclusion will guide you in making other decisions about the future as you get older and become involved citizens. Thank you.

[Gravy]

Excellent, excellent!

[uk_dave]

Nice work.

What was the response from the kids?
Were any already aware of LC or 911 ct in general?

[Brainster]

I had the definite impression that a few (maybe 5 out of 60) of the kids had heard of the CTs but only one kid specifically mentioned knowing about Loose Change. He was apparently an Immortal Technique fan and told me that IT thinks the Loose Change boys went too far.

[GwionX]

Fantastic! I admire your initiative.

I think your presentation is spot-on for your audience.

Great job!

[LashL]

Excellent, indeed, Brainster.
















(Your bonus cheque from the NWO is in the mail :D)

[MG1962]

Quick wrap-up: I talked a little bit at the beginning about how we’re all guardians of history. Each of us makes our own conclusions about what to believe happened on 9-11 based on what we’ve seen, what we’ve read, and what we’ve watched. I hope that all of you will reach the right conclusion, because that conclusion will guide you in making other decisions about the future as you get older and become involved citizens. Thank you.

Fantastic wrap up there............ Guardians of history...love it!!!!

[Regnad Kcin]

A laurel and hearty handshake, Brainster!

[JamesB]

Now oddly enough I seem to remember a thread in the LCF angrily attacking Brainster for this, but it seems to have disappeared.

And like that, he's gone...

[Dave Rogers]

Excellent work, Brainster. You're complimenting their intelligence where the conspiracy theorists would insult it - a good way to bring your audience on board. I'm extremely impressed.

Dave

[Aggs]

That's pretty awesome Brainster!

I'm wondering, would you ever consider conducting an exercise with the kids that is more personal to them so that they can get a better appreciation of the methods of deception?

Like, take a recent important event that occurred at the school and manipulate. Maybe if the football team lost the big game, you could say that the quarterback intentionally lost because he had money on it (getting his cooperation beforehand of course). Then create a story that was full of innuendo and suggestion, like that he drives an expensive car and used to go to the other school, and ask for a show of hands of people who find the story believable.

Just a thought, but it could be effective....

[Travis]

BRAVO!

Because both my parents worked in local schools I know most of the teachers around and I've been thinking of doing a presentation similar to this. Trying to introduce the idea of critical reasoning would be the emphasis with the 9/11 conspiracy theories as the example.

Ah heck I'll shout it again.
BRAVO!

[Alt+F4]

I had the definite impression that a few (maybe 5 out of 60) of the kids had heard of the CTs but only one kid specifically mentioned knowing about Loose Change.

I've been a NYC public high school teacher for 13 years and boy have kids come to me with some weird ideas ("Yo Miss, did you know that Hillary Clinton wants to be President so she can cheat on Bill!") but only 2 of the thousands I've taught since 9/11 have ever mentioned Loose Change.

[Quad4_72]

Excellent work! I am impressed.

[kimota]

Great job Brainster.

I'd like to pitch in a suggestion. Since you've addressed high school students with this (and hopefully will again), there's something I think is worth adding under the "What's it all about?" section and it might be more relevant to young people.

And it may go a little something...like this (pivots, facing away from the audience, then pivots back):


...and other things that have come about as a result of 9-11.

A lot of people, particularly young people, subscribe to conspiracy theories because is gives them a sense about themselves. It may be a feeling of intellectual superiority, because they pieced together information and came up with a different conclusion, maybe something they think they're not supposed to know. Or, perhaps a sense of moral superiority, that they have conviction to these theories and refuse to compromise. Some think of themselves as rebellious, that they're standing up against the government or other authorities. Others may get a sense of community because their friends believe the theories or they've made new friends in conspiracy groups.

Do these people really care about the victims of 9-11? I’ll let you judge...



On a side note, thanks to your link to the video of Alex Jones bullhorning 9/11 victims, I watched the full thing for the first time. Damn, but my blood was boiling at the scene towards the end of the video, where Alex Jones was harassing Marines at a restaurant. My admiration to those servicemen and women, who, with an amazing show of self-restraint, merely walked away, even though that blowhard followed them down the block. My mind was filled with all sorts of rule8 words about Jones and I know those Marines were sorely tempted to shut him up, quickly, efficiently and permanently.

[Brainster]

A lot of people, particularly young people, subscribe to conspiracy theories because is gives them a sense about themselves. It may be a feeling of intellectual superiority, because they pieced together information and came up with a different conclusion, maybe something they think they're not supposed to know. Or, perhaps a sense of moral superiority, that they have conviction to these theories and refuse to compromise. Some think of themselves as rebellious, that they're standing up against the government or other authorities. Others may get a sense of community because their friends believe the theories or they've made new friends in conspiracy groups.

That's an excellent suggestion, I will definitely add a paragraph along those lines.

On a side note, thanks to your link to the video of Alex Jones bullhorning 9/11 victims, I watched the full thing for the first time. Damn, but my blood was boiling at the scene towards the end of the video, where Alex Jones was harassing Marines at a restaurant. My admiration to those servicemen and women, who, with an amazing show of self-restraint, merely walked away, even though that blowhard followed them down the block. My mind was filled with all sorts of rule8 words about Jones and I know those Marines were sorely tempted to shut him up, quickly, efficiently and permanently.

I hate to say it but in New York they're probably used to being harassed at times. It took me a couple watches of that video (believe it or not, it's one of Dylan's vanity videos from last September) to catch the whole sequence. The doorman actually pointed out the military members to Jason and Alex. I was amused at Jones' claim that he freaked them out because he knew the NORAD codes or something of the kind.

[A-Train]

I'll cheerfully admit that I was not trying to give a balanced presentation.


At least you're honest about it. It's unfortunate that when ordinary people are introduced to the 9/11 debate, it is usually at the hands of someone, like yourself, who is a defender of the official story.

Nonetheless, I will try to counter your arguments and give the other side of the story that the high school kids should have, but probably have never, been exposed to.

Let’s talk about some famous dates in recent history:

December 7, 1941: Pearl Harbor Attacked

November 22, 1963: President Kennedy Assassinated

September 11, 2001: Terrorist Attacks on New York and Washington DC


Pearl Harbor doesn't really belong with the other two. No one disputes who bombed Pearl Harbor. It was the Japanese. Many respectable historians have assembled the case that the Roosevelt administration badgered the Japananese into a corner, hoping for just such a reaction, then remained silent in the hours immediately before the attack in hopes of promoting their agenda of war in Europe.

By contrast, in the other two incidents, it is alleged that the purported culprits-- Lee Harvey Oswald and al-Qaeda respectively-- were actually patsies set up to take the blame for a crime committed by a third party.

9-11 conspiracy theory: Bush administration planned and executed the 9-11 attacks or allowed them to happen without planning them.


With this sentence you have deliberately distorted what the 9/11 truth movement is all about. The theme of the movement can be summed up simply: 9/11 was an inside job. That does not necessarily imply Bush had anything to do with the attacks.

You present two scenarios: that the Bush administration planned and carried out the attacks; and that al-Qaeda carried out the attacks while the Bush administration was complicit. You have not considered that the attacks were planned and carried out by a third party altogether, namely an intelligence agency of a foreign nation, who used their contacts within the Bush administration to facilitate the attacks, and meanwhile framed al-Qaeda Arabs as the assailants.

This is the most likely scenario, and under it it is completely plausible that our President was and is completely oblivious of what really happened. The greatest part of his administration is likewise also mostly innocent, with the exception of a small group of collaborators who worked with the outside group to pull of the attacks.

In effect, you have created a double straw man. You have limited your analysis to two scenarios, both of which are false. You then have the very easy job of knocking down these straw men, meanwhile avoiding the reality of an inside job pulled off by a third party.

We know that 19 hijackers who were members of Al Qaeda took over four passenger jets and directed them at targets including the Twin Towers and the Pentagon and succeeded in hitting those buildings.


No, we don't know that at all. We have no idea who the men were that commandeered the jets. The official story says they were 19 al-Qaeda operatives; but no hard evidence has ever shown that these men were the actual hijackers.

1. Phone calls from passengers reported Arabic-looking men had hijacked the planes.
2. 4-5 men with Arabic-sounding names on each flight.
3. One man with an Arabic-sounding name and a pilot’s license on each flight.
4. Ties between the men with Arabic-sounding names and each other and Al Qaeda.
5. History of Al Qaeda terrorist attacks against US targets including USS Cole bombing in 2000 and US embassy bombings in Africa in 1998.


Let's confront these points one by one.

1. None of the phone calls used the term "Arabic." The term used was "Middle-Eastern looking." This is undoubtedly accurate. The men were Middle Eastern, but that does not mean they were Arabs. They just as easily could have been men from another Middle Eastern country portraying themselves as Arabs, for the purpose of framing Arabs.

For example, they may have looked like this man, who is obviously no Arab:

http://www.scar.utoronto.ca/~msa/issues/Palestine/MultiMedia/pictures/crimes/crazy_israeli_soldier_look_into_eyes.jpg (http://www.scar.utoronto.ca/%7Emsa/issues/Palestine/MultiMedia/pictures/crimes/crazy_israeli_soldier_look_into_eyes.jpg)

He is no Arab, but he could pass for one if he wanted to. This technique of using dark skinned Israeli agents to represent Arabs to fool the West is a common technique used in Israel. Here is an example of what I mean:

http://home.att.net/~kimmel_a/Master_Israel/Star_of_david_on_terrorist.jpg (http://home.att.net/%7Ekimmel_a/Master_Israel/Star_of_david_on_terrorist.jpg)

Keep that photo in mind next time you see some sinister looking "Palestinian militants" on your TV screen.

2. Arabic names on the flight lists mean nothing. Names didn't hijack the planes; men did.

3. How do you know the man on the flight corresponds with the name given? Ever heard of identity theft?

4. see #3

5. But if 9/11 may have been an inside job/false flag, how do we know these other events, taking place in faraway lands, were not more of the same? And what about the USS Liberty, the Lavon Affair, and the King David Hotel bombing?

On the other hand, if you’re a conspiracy theorist, you start with the conclusion (Bush/Cheney did it) and sift backwards through the evidence looking for information that supports that “theory”.

No, you start with the evidence and find that Bush/Cheney did not do it.


So the theorists concoct elaborate theories. Maybe the US military hijacked the planes with commandos disguised as Arabs, rendered the passengers and pilots unconscious, set the planes on remote control, and parachuted to safety.


Let me clarify for you. Mossad commandos, some posing as Arabs, commandeer the plane. They kill the pilots with the guns noted by Tom Burnett and Betty Ong. The passengers are herded to the back of the plane, while the planes are set for remote navigation. The commandos may or may not have parachuted to safety. Such a procedure is commonly done from airliners by the Navy Seals and other commando outfits, as I demonstrated previously on this forum:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2339966#post2339966

Elaborate? Yes, but these guys are professionals.

If you take the time to examine all the claims in Loose Change as I have done, you will see these types of dishonest tricks used over and over again.


Who cares what Loose Change says? They are frauds. Yet another straw man for you.

"Excellent, excellent!"

-GravyAh, yes. What high school gathering would be complete without a cheerleader?

[Thunder]

There were men with Arabic names on the planes. Several of them got their FAA licenses. They rented cars, rented apartments, bought tickets for the airplanes. What reason do you have to believe that these men were anything other Arab men..other then your wish to believe that this is just a plot to fram Arabs?

As to your photo of the "terrorist" wearing the supposed Star of David, where was this photo taken? What organization is he supposed to be a member of? And most importantly, do you think the Mossad is stupid enough to have a Stat of David clearly visible when they are trying to pose as Arab terrorists?

Funny how you think the Israelis ars such masterminds at deception, but he was too forgetful to remove his Magen David. Maybe its not even a star of david.

[Corsair 115]

Pearl Harbor doesn't really belong with the other two. No one disputes who bombed Pearl Harbor. It was the Japanese. Many respectable historians have assembled the case that the Roosevelt administration badgered the Japananese into a corner, hoping for just such a reaction, then remained silent in the hours immediately before the attack in hopes of promoting their agenda of war in Europe.The bolded portion is why it fits - the U.S. government allegedly knew the attack on Pearl Harbor was coming, and did nothing to warn its military commanders there. In other words, the administration deliberately sacrificed its battleships, aircraft, and personnel.

That the assertion is unsupported by anything approaching reliable evidence doesn't stop some people from believing the U.S. government allowed its battleships to be attacked...

[gumboot]

A-Train,

It took you a while, but I'm glad you finally stopped the allusion and hinting and just came out and admitted you were claiming those filthy Jews committed 9/11. The Fuhrer would be so proud.

I think you're right; elite Israeli commandos purposefully hijacked the planes and framed the attacks on nineteen Radical Islamic Terrorist who just happened (by sheer coincidence) to be members of Al Qaeda planning their own suicide hijacking mission.

What are the odds?

And of course the ultimate plan behind all of this was for Israel to finally convince the USA to come to their aid and invade and destroy the surrounding nations so bent on wiping Israel off the map. Hence why immediately after 9/11 the USA simultaneously invaded Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, Iran...

oh...

wait...

-Gumboot

[knot]

Very good. There are so many liberal CT kids parroting their liberal CT teachers on Myspace political forums it's sickening.

[A-Train]

A-Train,

It took you a while, but I'm glad you finally stopped the allusion and hinting and just came out and admitted you were claiming those filthy Jews committed 9/11. The Fuhrer would be so proud.

I find the use of terms like "filthy Jews" to be offensive. So I don't use them. You shouldn't either.

Stick to the facts, gumboot.

I think you're right; elite Israeli commandos purposefully hijacked the planes and framed the attacks on nineteen Radical Islamic Terrorist who just happened (by sheer coincidence) to be members of Al Qaeda planning their own suicide hijacking mission.


Well now, if the men hijacking the planes were not really Arabs, perhaps the men running around the US supposedly planning their suicide mission were not Arabs either. Perhaps they were agents as well, who had assumed the identities of Arabs who had their wallets stolen in the past. That would explain so many of the inconsistencies, like the "Arabs" drinking and getting lap dances, or the fact that several of the Arabs arrived in the US when "they" were already here.


At least six people with no connections to one another later claim they recognize hijackers Satam Al Suqami and Salem Alhazmi living in San Antonio, Texas, until this month. The management of an apartment building says the two men abandoned their leases at about this time, and some apartment residents recognize them. However, all the witnesses say that Suqami was going by Alhazmi’s name, and vice versa! One pilot shop employee recognizes Alhazmi as a frequent visitor to the store and interested in a 757 or 767 handbook, though he also says Alhazmi used Suqami’s name. The apartment-leasing agent also recalls a Ziad Jarrah who once lived there in June 2001 and looked the same as the hijacker. Local FBI confirm that a Salem Alhazmi attended the nearby Alpha Tango Flight School and lived in that apartment building, but they say he is a different Salem Alhazmi who is still alive and living in Saudi Arabia. However, that “Salem Alhazmi” says he has never been to the US and has proven to the authorities that he did not leave Saudi Arabia in the two years prior to 9/11. The FBI does not explain Satam Al Suqami’s presence. Neither hijacker is supposed to have arrived in the US before April 2001. -The Complete Terror TimelineHijackers Hamza Alghamdi and Mohamed Alshehri rent a post office box in Delray Beach, Florida. The timing is uncertain. Some reports indicate this occurs in January, which would be several months before they arrive in the US according to the FBI and 9/11 Commission . However, a document used as evidence at the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui will say the mailbox is actually rented on July 28, 2001. -The Complete Terror Timeline


The whole thing is a big comedy, these Israelis running around the US, pretending to be fanatical Islamics planning a big terrorist attack. They couldn't pull it off, they were too cynical-- so they did things like getting drunk and shacking up with prostitutes and hanging out on on Jack Abramoff's cruise boat.

I encourage you to read the whole account on the The Complete Terror Timeline. It's quite amusing once you know what's actually going on.

And of course the ultimate plan behind all of this was for Israel to finally convince the USA to come to their aid and invade and destroy the surrounding nations so bent on wiping Israel off the map. Hence why immediately after 9/11 the USA simultaneously invaded Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, Iran...


Speaking of knowing what's going on, you need to brush up on your geopolitics.

Palestine and Lebanon don't need to be invaded. Palestine has already been invaded-- by Israel. Lebanon is a weakling state, incapable of any threat against Israel. Syria and Iran are independent countries that Israel wants the US to destroy. If you've been paying attention, you know that US military action against Iran is a distinct possibility in the near future. And if Iran goes down, Syria would fall like a domino.

The fallout from 9/11 has been a pipe-dream for the ultra-Zionists in Israel and around the world.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

A-train, please dump your crap in the existing thread you have discussing it rather than thread-gulling this one.

[A-Train]

And most importantly, do you think the Mossad is stupid enough to have a Stat of David clearly visible when they are trying to pose as Arab terrorists?

Funny how you think the Israelis ars such masterminds at deception, but he was too forgetful to remove his Magen David. Maybe its not even a star of david.

No, they aren't stupid. They're smart. But even smart people make mistakes.

But they're smart enough to know the media is mostly controlled by people firmly on their side. This photo was posted on either Google or Yahoo Photos-- then was quickly removed. By whom?

[Arus808]

sorry a-train, you can parrot your insane theories all you like; until you have proof (confession, facts, evidence) your claims are as flimsy as Alex Jones' backbone.

[gumboot]

I encourage you to read the whole account on the The Complete Terror Timeline. It's quite amusing once you know what's actually going on.


I have. It's terrible. I'm ashamed that Paul Thompson has decided to live in my country. The entire nation's value has been lowered by his presence.

-Gumboot

[Thunder]

If 9-11 was really carried out by the Israelis, some of the hijackers would have been either Palestinian, Iraqi, or Iranian. But none of them were. Instead, they were Saudi...a big embarrassment for Bush.

If 9-11 was carried out by Israel, they would have used it as an justification to get rid of the Palestinians..which they did not do. Instead they now have Hamas incharge of the Palestinian governmant and rockets falling on their heads.

I love how anti-Semites assume that Jews and Israel are capable of such amazing feats, but they are also incapable of defeating a rag tag army of suicide bombers and thieves.

So which is it A-Train, are the Israelis and Jews great conspirators and planners or are they unorganized nitwits who can't defeat morons with Kassam rockets? They cant be both.

[JamesB]

If 9-11 was really carried out by the Israelis, some of the hijackers would have been either Palestinian, Iraqi, or Iranian. But none of them were. Instead, they were Saudi...a big embarrassment for Bush.

If 9-11 was carried out by Israel, they would have used it as an justification to get rid of the Palestinians..which they did not do. Instead they now have Hamas incharge of the Palestinian governmant and rockets falling on their heads.

I love how anti-Semites assume that Jews and Israel are capable of such amazing feats, but they are also incapable of defeating a rag tag army of suicide bombers and thieves.

So which is it A-Train, are the Israelis and Jews great conspirators and planners or are they unorganized nitwits who can't defeat morons with Kassam rockets? They cant be both.

Thomas Friedman, the NY Times columnist, was in Israel when the attacks occurred. He went and talked to some people in the IDF and asked them if Arab terrorists could have carried out the attacks, they said absolutely, that Arab terrorists carried out sophisticated coordinated attacks all the time. He then travelled to Saudi Arabia and a few other Arab countries, where everyone he talked to said that there was no way a bunch of Arabs could have done that, that it was too complicated. He commented on the amusing irony that the only people who thought that Muslims were smart, were the Jews.

[Slayhamlet]

What were the nationalities of all the hijackers? The majority were Saudi, I know, but there were a few others including the Egyptian Atta. Were there no Palestinians?

[gumboot]

What were the nationalities of all the hijackers? The majority were Saudi, I know, but there were a few others including the Egyptian Atta. Were there no Palestinians?


No. Fifteen Saudis, two from the UAE, one from Egypt, and one from Lebanon.

-Gumboot

[SpitfireIX]

Hello, all--I thought this would be an appropriate thread for my first post here at JREF, because the potentially corrosive effect of conspiracism on impressionable young minds is a particular concern of mine. I have a BA in American History, and I've been familiar with Pearl Harbor and JFK conspiracy theories for as long as I can remember. I always thought the moon hoax claims were just something that could be found on the covers of supermarket tabloids--until I saw a news item about Buzz Aldrin's punching Bart Sibrel in 2002. This piqued my interest, so I started reading a few things online about fake moon landings, and lurking on BadAstronomy.com. Then, on February 1, 2003, the day Columbia was lost, I had a high-school history teacher tell me he sometimes has students ask if the moon landings were faked. Obviously, that was not the day I wanted to hear that. :mad: So I decided to join BadAstronomy.com and become a debunker.

However, my disgust and anger with the moon hoax and other conspiracy theories soon paled next to the utter revulsion and loathing I felt when I first discovered the September 11 "truth" movement. :jaw-dropp :curse

Sadly, BAUTForum has recently banned discussion of non-space conspiracy theories, :( so I've decided to start posting here.

So Brainster, let me add to the chorus of "well done."

[Alt+F4]

Hello new person, welcome!

[PhantomWolf]

Pearl Harbor doesn't really belong with the other two. No one disputes who bombed Pearl Harbor. It was the Japanese. Many respectable historians have assembled the case that the Roosevelt administration badgered the Japananese into a corner, hoping for just such a reaction, then remained silent in the hours immediately before the attack in hopes of promoting their agenda of war in Europe.

You obviously don't know your Conspiracy Theories very well. There are people that claim that it was the US that bombed Pearl, painting up US planes to look like Japanese bombers so that the US could enter the war. True more PH CT's are LIHOP, but there are a number of MIHOP's.

No, we don't know that at all. We have no idea who the men were that commandeered the jets. The official story says they were 19 al-Qaeda operatives; but no hard evidence has ever shown that these men were the actual hijackers.

Let's confront these points one by one.

1. None of the phone calls used the term "Arabic." The term used was "Middle-Eastern looking." This is undoubtedly accurate. The men were Middle Eastern, but that does not mean they were Arabs. They just as easily could have been men from another Middle Eastern country portraying themselves as Arabs, for the purpose of framing Arabs.

Hmm, so we have middle eastern me with middle eastern names on the flight manifests.....

2. Arabic names on the flight lists mean nothing. Names didn't hijack the planes; men did.

Middle eastern looking men...

3. How do you know the man on the flight corresponds with the name given? Ever heard of identity theft?

Ever heard of them shown on airport security cameras, the ticket counter personnel identifying them as the men that arrived with those tickets, that several of the various drivers licences, ID cards and passports which survived the crashes belonged to the men that were indentified with those names and by the cameras and by the ticket counter staff. And yes other people's ID survived the crashes too, not just the hijackers. For a number of photos of things that survived the crashes look through the Zacharias Moussaoui trial exhibits.

4. see #3

See answer to #3

5. But if 9/11 may have been an inside job/false flag, how do we know these other events, taking place in faraway lands, were not more of the same? And what about the USS Liberty, the Lavon Affair, and the King David Hotel bombing?

So what you're saying is that Islamic terrorism doesn't actually exist and that all so called attacks are just the PTB trying to make people think it does? Okay......:boggled: I think you need to get some fresh air....

No, you start with the evidence and find that Bush/Cheney did not do it.

No you start with the evidence that the men identified by the check in staff, the airline stewardesses and passangers, and who are on the airport survailence, the CVR and left a trail of connecting evidence a mile wide did it. Oh an the fact that since then Al Qaeda has released their Martyrdon tapes...

Let me clarify for you. Mossad commandos, some posing as Arabs, commandeer the plane. They kill the pilots with the guns noted by Tom Burnett and Betty Ong. The passengers are herded to the back of the plane, while the planes are set for remote navigation. The commandos may or may not have parachuted to safety. Such a procedure is commonly done from airliners by the Navy Seals and other commando outfits, as I demonstrated previously on this forum:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2339966#post2339966

Hmm, mossad agents that looked exactly like the claimed hijackers, who OBL handpicked (his words), who recorded their martyrdom videos to be released by AQ..... I bet I have more evidence of 19 AQ highly trained opperatives doing 9/11 than you do for Mossad agents.

Elaborate? Yes, but these guys are professionals.

And Al Qaeda isn't?

Who cares what Loose Change says?

You mean except 90% of the so called Truthers out there?

They are frauds.

Well I guess we do agree on something

Ah, yes. What high school gathering would be complete without a cheerleader?

True, but then so does every neo-nazi rally so I hear.

[PhantomWolf]

Sadly, BAUTForum has recently banned discussion of non-space conspiracy theories, :( so I've decided to start posting here.

heya Spitfire, welcome to the Darkside. I think half of BAUT's going to be here soon, lol. :)

[A-Train]

Ever heard of them shown on airport security cameras, the ticket counter personnel identifying them as the men that arrived with those tickets, that several of the various drivers licences, ID cards and passports which survived the crashes belonged to the men that were indentified with those names and by the cameras and by the ticket counter staff. And yes other people's ID survived the crashes too, not just the hijackers. For a number of photos of things that survived the crashes look through the Zacharias Moussaoui trial exhibits.

You are just flat out wrong, or misinformed at best. None of the surveillance video that should have been shot at the four boarding gates at the three airports has been submitted to the public. In fact, there is no evidence that any of this surveillance video was filmed at all. That means that someone with very deep connections at the three airports was determined that we not know who actually boarded those planes on that day. That someone was able to make sure that those cameras were turned off at the critical moments.

You have apparently been fooled by the appearance of video of Mohammad Atta at an airport that was bandied about by our media in the weeks after 9/11. They didn't bother telling us that that footage had been filmed at the Portland, ME airport, not Boston Logan.

The non-existence of boarding gate surveillance video is one of the smoking guns that 9/11 was an inside job pulled off by a powerful, state-sponsored conspiracy.

[JimBenArm]

The non-existence of boarding gate surveillance video is one of the smoking guns that 9/11 was an inside job pulled off by a powerful, state-sponsored conspiracy.
Oh, is that what that is? Exactly how do you get from "no video" to "inside job" without any other evidence? Seems to me a lack of video is just that, and not indicative of anything else unless you have some other evidence to point you in some direction. That is, unless you have a built-in paranoid bias that makes you manufacture bizzare, fantastic plots. But, YMMV.

[Corsair 115]

Sadly, BAUTForum has recently banned discussion of non-space conspiracy theories, :( so I've decided to start posting here.Welcome aboard. And may I say you and I may have to engage in a virtual dogfight of some sort so we can settle which of our fighter monickers was indeed the superior fighter aircraft... :D

[PhantomWolf]

You have apparently been fooled by the appearance of video of Mohammad Atta at an airport that was bandied about by our media in the weeks after 9/11. They didn't bother telling us that that footage had been filmed at the Portland, ME airport, not Boston Logan.

So your claim is that while Mohammad Atta and Abdulaziz al-Omari, having tickets from Portland to Boston and then on to LA, boarded the flight from Portland to Boston, then gave their tickets to someone else who got on Flight 11? Even though they were identified by the check in staff at both Portland and Boston (they had to re-check in at Boston because Michael Tuohey refused to book them right through based on a bad feeling he had about them) as being the ones that checked in, you still think it wasn't them on the planes? Heck the girl that rechecked them in in Boston was so upset about it she commited suicide. You want to go to her family and tell them that she killed herself over nothing because she didn't really let Atta and co on the plane at all?

[Slayhamlet]

So your claim is that while Mohammad Atta and Abdulaziz al-Omari, having tickets from Portland to Boston and then on to LA, boarded the flight from Portland to Boston, then gave their tickets to someone else who got on Flight 11? Even though they were identified by the check in staff at both Portland and Boston (they had to re-check in at Boston because Michael Tuohey refused to book them right through based on a bad feeling he had about them) as being the ones that checked in, you still think it wasn't them on the planes? Heck the girl that rechecked them in in Boston was so upset about it she commited suicide. You want to go to her family and tell them that she killed herself over nothing because she didn't really let Atta and co on the plane at all?

She was "suicided" by the NWO. Trainee here will be sure to tell her parents the Truth, I'm sure.

[PhantomWolf]

Welcome aboard. And may I say you and I may have to engage in a virtual dogfight of some sort so we can settle which of our fighter monickers was indeed the superior fighter aircraft... :D

I'll take the both of you in a Phantom (http://archive.cs.uu.nl/pub/AIRCRAFT-IMAGES/F4-Phantom-formation.jpg). ;)

[PhantomWolf]

None of the surveillance video that should have been shot at the four boarding gates at the three airports has been submitted to the public. In fact, there is no evidence that any of this surveillance video was filmed at all. That means that someone with very deep connections at the three airports was determined that we not know who actually boarded those planes on that day. That someone was able to make sure that those cameras were turned off at the critical moments.

Prove that there were cameras at the boarding areas for footage to be released? There were cameras at the security areas of Dulles and Portland, both of which have been released.

[PhantomWolf]

She was "suicided" by the NWO. Trainee here will be sure to tell her parents the Truth, I'm sure.

let me guess, she was about to change her original story and claim that she'd been forced to identify the hijackers as the people that got on, so the NWO and Mossad had to do her in before she split the beans. Just like they have killed everyone else that has announced publically that they think that 9/11 was an inside job.

[Corsair 115]

I'll take the both of you in a Phantom (http://archive.cs.uu.nl/pub/AIRCRAFT-IMAGES/F4-Phantom-formation.jpg). ;)In the interests of fairness, I suppose we should set some timeframe constraints on the eligible participants, lest you win in a cakewalk. ;)

[PhantomWolf]

In the interests of fairness, I suppose we should set some timeframe constraints on the eligible participants, lest you win in a cakewalk. ;)

Aww come on, it'd be 2 on 1, that would mean I'd have to fire at least twice. :p

[SpitfireIX]

That the assertion is unsupported by anything approaching reliable evidence doesn't stop some people from believing the U.S. government allowed its battleships to be attacked...

It's not even really supported by the non-reliable evidence. For example, intercepted pre-attack radio transmissions allegedly from the Japanese Strike Force (Kido Butai) do not match the positions indicated in the ships' logs.

[Mr. Skinny]

heya Spitfire, welcome to the Darkside. I think half of BAUT's going to be here soon, lol. :)
Welcome, Spitfire.

Any chance you can get Jay Utah to sign up over here? I loved watching him rip new a-holes at the BAUT Conspiracy Theory subforum.

Plus, we've always had Phil, CharlieinDayton, Wolverine, etc., etc. You guys are takin' over the place. :)

[SpitfireIX]

heya Spitfire, welcome to the Darkside.

Thanks--I've been wanting to join for a while, but I'd been quite busy with work and school, and then my first attempt didn't work right.

I think half of BAUT's going to be here soon, lol. :)

Jay made a comment a few weeks ago that he saw something interesting here, and needs to come hang out more often. Maybe he'll even join, which, of course, would be A Good ThingTM. (For those unfamiliar, Jay Windley is to the moon hoax what Gravy is to the September 11 "truth" movement. But Jay is also quite capable of debunking a lot of "truther" garbage, especially on engineering- and photography-related subjects.)

I was more active on ApolloHoax for a couple of months, but there's not much non-moon hoax activity there (plus I needed a break from turbonium--he really got my goat with one of his replies, and I haven't had the time or mental energy to devote to a proper response).

[edited to add: Mr. Skinny posted while I was writing this--must mean I'm clarivoyant. Do I win the million dollars? :D]

[Mr. Skinny]

[edited to add: Mr. Skinny posted while I was writing this--must mean I'm clarivoyant. Do I win the million dollars? :D]

You're not clairvoyant, I am! I foresaw that you would post about Jay Utah!

Pah! I get the million.

[SpitfireIX]

Welcome aboard. And may I say you and I may have to engage in a virtual dogfight of some sort so we can settle which of our fighter monickers was indeed the superior fighter aircraft... :D

Thank you. It would be my great pleasure to do so, though I have to concede that you would probably have the edge (though I'm sure I can find some things that the SpitIX was better at). BTW, what's the significance of 115? I found two possible references--Corsair 115 from HMS Formidable, and VMF-115. Or is it something else alltogether?

[Alareth]

heya Spitfire, welcome to the Darkside. I think half of BAUT's going to be here soon, lol. :)

Well why not? Phil's here already ;)

[SpitfireIX]

In the interests of fairness, I suppose we should set some timeframe constraints on the eligible participants, lest you win in a cakewalk. ;)

I once read a rather forgettable novel (set in the early 1980s, IIRC) where a retired Spitfire pilot learns of a plot to stage a terrorist attack in London. The attack was to be made using an airliner supposedly carrying a delegation of Palestinians to some meeting in Britain, and because of security concerns, the airliner was to be escorted on its last leg by RAF Phantoms. The pilot managed to secure some cannon ammunition for a restored Spitfire, and attempted to shoot down the airliner. As I recall, the Phantoms couldn't get any decent shots because the Spitfire was much more maneuverable.

[Alareth]

In the interests of fairness, I suppose we should set some timeframe constraints on the eligible participants, lest you win in a cakewalk. ;)

I once read a rather forgettable novel (set in the early 1980s, IIRC) where a retired Spitfire pilot learns of a plot to stage a terrorist attack in London. The attack was to be made using an airliner supposedly carrying a delegation of Palestinians to some meeting in Britain, and because of security concerns, the airliner was to be escorted on its last leg by RAF Phantoms. The pilot managed to secure some cannon ammunition for a restored Spitfire, and attempted to shoot down the airliner. As I recall, the Phantoms couldn't get any decent shots because the Spitfire was much more maneuverable.

The F4 Phantom was refered to as the Flying Brick for a reason.

[Mr. Skinny]

The F4 Phantom was refered to as the Flying Brick for a reason.
I knew a Lt. Col that flew them, and IIRC, he said they were kinda' "fuel hungry" (in addition to calling it a Flying Brick).

[Helpless Kitten]

Brainster, thanks...

These things need to be said. These people hold this warped "truth" to be more important than anything, even those who have lost loved ones.

By the way, I have heard the theory that there were bombs in the buildings. I worked as a volunteer at the Echange Place docks where many of the construction workers who were on the cleanup were ferried to and from. After looking in thier eyes...I know that if they had seen ANYTHING strange in that rubble, any evidence of intentional distruction (and these are profesionals, they would know) they would not have remained silent. They saw too much to say nothing.

[Gorgonian]

I think half of BAUT's going to be here soon, lol.

I'm here from the same places for the same reasons. I mostly lurk on both places but I have a few posts at BAUT and apollohoax. Both places have gotten kind of boring. It's a hive of activity here, but I'm personally more interested in the Apollo stuff. I have learned a lot from debunkers of both of the conspiracy theories, but I'm just more interested in what I've learned about Apollo. I have to say that this one makes me more angry.

[SpitfireIX]

You're not clairvoyant, I am! I foresaw that you would post about Jay Utah!

Pah! I get the million.


How about we split it? :)

[Mr. Skinny]

How about we split it? :)
Well, I'm forum god, so I don't have to if I don't want to, but I'm in a good mood today, so, OK. :)

[JimBenArm]

Well, I'm forum god, so I don't have to if I don't want to, but I'm in a good mood today, so, OK. :)
YOU'RE forum god? I'm telling Belz...!

[PhantomWolf]

JayUtah has sais recently that he has thought about coming over to JREF, but at the same time I doubt that he will. He's pretty much decided that in the interests of time and his own sanity, he's just going to stick with Apollo for the time being.

[Corsair 115]

BTW, what's the significance of 115? I found two possible references--Corsair 115 from HMS Formidable, and VMF-115.It's the former - a tribute from me to Robert "Hammy" Hampton Gray, VC, DSC.

As I recall, the Phantoms couldn't get any decent shots because the Spitfire was much more maneuverable.If the U.S. experience in the Pacific theatre during WWII is any guide, greater maneuverability means much less than greater speed and climbing ability. The Phantoms ought to have been able to use their superior speed and climb to conduct what are sometimes referred to as "boom-and-zoom" attacks. Make a diving pass on the Spitfire, then climb away before it can retaliate. Repeat as necessary until some cannon shells finally take down the Spitfire.

[JimBenArm]

It's the former - a tribute from me to Robert "Hammy" Hampton Gray, VC, DSC.

If the U.S. experience in the Pacific theatre during WWII is any guide, greater maneuverability means much less than greater speed and climbing ability. The Phantoms ought to have been able to use their superior speed and climb to conduct what are sometimes referred to as "boom-and-zoom" attacks. Make a diving pass on the Spitfire, then climb away before it can retaliate. Repeat as necessary until some cannon shells finally take down the Spitfire.
Unfortunately, the F-4 Phantom had one major flaw. It didn't carry any cannon. Just missiles. This was corrected in later generation aircraft, but it was a big problem during Viet Nam.

[Corsair 115]

Unfortunately, the F-4 Phantom had one major flaw. It didn't carry any cannon. Just missiles. This was corrected in later generation aircraft, but it was a big problem during Viet Nam.Well, I was presuming the cannon-armed version. I thought cannon-armed F-4s were introduced during the latter stages of the Vietnam War.

[PhantomWolf]

I was thinking that 2 AIM-4's should do the trick. Or if they have too much trouble locking on, perhaps AIM-7's.

[stilicho]

At least you're honest about it. It's unfortunate that when ordinary people are introduced to the 9/11 debate, it is usually at the hands of someone, like yourself, who is a defender of the official story.
This is where you start going wrong, in the last sentence of your first paragraph. "Defender of the official story" is a term of derision that presupposes a lot more than the short epithet would suggest.

There is no such thing as "the official story".

There is, however, a mass of evidence collected by a number of unconnected sources and occasionally compiled or summarised (either here, in books, or other media). The Kean Commission is not the SEC. The New York Times is not the NTSB. The FBI is not the ASCE. Moreover, each of these organisations or institutions is composed of individuals rather capable of critical thought. In fact, they were likely employed to investigate what happened on 9/11 because of that quality.

I have asked before, of obviously intelligent observers such as yourself, to bring forward a single professional association in any discipline relevant to the events of 9/11 (architecture, engineering, political science, commerce, etc), that officially denies the commonly-held understanding of who perpetrated the incident.

This has not happened...yet. There may be hope for you some day, but that hope is dwindling into nothingness. Now deniers have splintered into literally hundreds of contradictory factions. Unlike Meyssan and Ruppert, in fact, they frequently have no thesis whatsoever, but cling to favourite pieces of the sinking ship HMCS Conspiracy.

Part of the problem with denying the evidence of 9/11 is that it involves or involved far more pieces than, for example, the JFK assassination. Putting together a thesis worth defending is simply beyond the capacity of most of the amateurs trying to create an alternative to actual events.

I wish you the best of luck putting together your own thesis but I imagine it can't approach the completeness of Meyssan's and Ruppert's (both of which have been extensively debunked).

[SpitfireIX]

It's the former - a tribute from me to Robert "Hammy" Hampton Gray, VC, DSC.

Interesting--according to a VC web site, only one fighter pilot was so decorated (when wounded and about to bail out, he climbed back into his burning Hurricane and shot down an ME-110). I'll have to email them and tell them to amend that to "one RAF fighter pilot." :)

The Phantoms ought to have been able to use their superior speed and climb to conduct what are sometimes referred to as "boom-and-zoom" attacks. Make a diving pass on the Spitfire, then climb away before it can retaliate. Repeat as necessary until some cannon shells finally take down the Spitfire.

This would work if the Phantoms were merely intercepting the Spitfire, but they also had to protect the airliner (a 737, IIRC), which was caught low and slow on final approach. I'll use a spoiler in the unlikely event anyone wants to read it (I don't even remember the name, though, and I really wouldn't recommend it).

The pilot is able to maneuver for a shot at the airliner, just as his engine conks out from redlining and violent aerobatics, but being so many years removed from combat he mistakenly triggers his empty machine guns rather than his loaded cannons. He bails out of the disabled plane, but then watches an F-4 destroy the airliner with cannon fire, as the British government finally catches on to the terrorist plot.