John Taylor Gatto

[Liszt]

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/

Does anyone know this man´s work? He is my absolute hero, by a huge margin. His writing is magnetic and unique, and he should be President of the USA.

Anyone who works in education should read his stuff (and give some feedback here please).

[Rob Lister]

I have nothing of value to contribute but just wanted to be post number two of a multi-page thread.

[Liszt]

I had to laugh at that, but I don´t think he is well known enough. But he should be.

[ERGONER]

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/

...He is my absolute hero, by a huge margin.


Please be more specific.

What does he say that so appeals to you ?

[ingoa]

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/

Does anyone know this man´s work? He is my absolute hero, by a huge margin. His writing is magnetic and unique, and he should be President of the USA.

Anyone who works in education should read his stuff (and give some feedback here please).

Which writing? There is no writing on the web page. :confused:

You have very low standards for heros. :eye-poppi

I work in education and that was my feedback.

[Liszt]

fair points, sorry. I seemed a bit over excited in my first post, not sure what that was about

Also, I havn´t checked out his website. Terrible or what?

He has written several books, Dumbing Us Down (1992) and The Underground History of Education (2001) being the best.

He was named NYC teacher of the year 3 times. His themes are pretty conspirational at times. Deliberate bumbing down, so people would be happy to work manual labour jobs (during the beginings of the industrial revolution), manipulation of testing, and pavlov style lessons (complete with a ringing bell!) Stuff like that.

[ERGONER]

...

He has written several books, Dumbing Us Down (1992) and The Underground History of Education (2001) being the best..



Gatto is a very strong critic of the American public {government} school system. Do you agree with him ?

Do you think truancy laws are a valid exercise of legal authority by state & local governments ?

[RSLancastr]

I once heard Gatto give the keynote speech at a homeschoolers' convention.

He's a pretty interesting guy.

[Wavicle]

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/

Does anyone know this man´s work? He is my absolute hero, by a huge margin. His writing is magnetic and unique, and he should be President of the USA.

Anyone who works in education should read his stuff (and give some feedback here please).

Yes, I read much of his work and find him to be illogical and fueling the flames of his own ego. I can typically find one or two errors per chapter that indicate a profound lack of knowledge of subject matter he passes himself off as expert in.

I know he is popular, and I do not necessarily disagree with all his conclusions. But his reasoning is flawed. Next time he perks up and starts writing, he should make sure to use source texts that are not only old, but not in project Gutenberg. It seems rather silly for him to talk about some knowledgeable writer and then you go and read the source material and realize the writer was just being melodramatic.

I mean, this guy actually thinks that reading used to be easy and everyone 'just picked it up.' Give me a break. Do some research. This one is pretty easy to debunk.

[Liszt]

good replies

ERGONER
"Gatto is a very strong critic of the American public {government} school system. Do you agree with him ?

Do you think truancy laws are a valid exercise of legal authority by state & local governments ?"

The truency laws in the UK are way too strict, and take too much power away from parents. The US? not sure. It is usually pretty good on stuff like this. I agree that government education is really setting the stage for a life of non thinking. It doesn´t work too well, because humans are fairly uncontrollable (thankfully)

RSLancastr

"I once heard Gatto give the keynote speech at a homeschoolers' convention.

He's a pretty interesting guy."

Interesting, contraversial, basically a very good topic for discussion here.

Wavicle

"Yes, I read much of his work and find him to be illogical and fueling the flames of his own ego. I can typically find one or two errors per chapter that indicate a profound lack of knowledge of subject matter he passes himself off as expert in.

I know he is popular, and I do not necessarily disagree with all his conclusions. But his reasoning is flawed. Next time he perks up and starts writing, he should make sure to use source texts that are not only old, but not in project Gutenberg. It seems rather silly for him to talk about some knowledgeable writer and then you go and read the source material and realize the writer was just being melodramatic.

I mean, this guy actually thinks that reading used to be easy and everyone 'just picked it up.' Give me a break. Do some research. This one is pretty easy to debunk."

No need to be rude, just because you have cool screen name. Gatto really is an expert. 3 times NTC teacher of the year? What have you got? Are you even a teacher? Please point out the 600 errors Gatto has made in each of his books.

And Gatto is "popular"? I don´t think so. And "debunk"? Wrong forum pal, this isn´t "conspiracy theories".

[Wavicle]

No need to be rude, just because you have cool screen name. Gatto really is an expert. 3 times NTC teacher of the year? What have you got? Are you even a teacher?


I'm stating my opinion after substantial reading and using my powers of reason. I'm not a teacher. I'm aware of his accolades, and if I was reading a book on how to teach a classroom full of kids, I might tend to respect his authority. His book "Underground History of American Education" is not writing about teaching, it is writing about historical and scientific aspects of American education, a subject for which his expertise is not apparent. Now there is nothing wrong with writing on something you are not expert in, but you need to carefully cite your sources - something which Gatto is completely lax in.


Please point out the 600 errors Gatto has made in each of his books.


No. You can find a few in this very forum in other posts I've made.


And Gatto is "popular"? I don´t think so.

Then you need to get around more in circles that do not hold the NEA in high regard. Anywhere you look for people investigating alternatives to or better forms of mainstream education, you'll find people bringing up Gatto. Like I said, I don't necessarily disagree with some of his conclusions, but I will not condone using bad history, bad science and bad mathematics to argue it.

And "debunk"? Wrong forum pal, this isn´t "conspiracy theories".

debunk
Function: transitive verb
: to expose the sham or falseness of <debunk a legend>

[Liszt]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touche_Turtle

Well said, I suppose, and I think we can agree that we disagree on some of this. But it is the very notion of "bad history, bad science" that I sometimes argue about in the first place. These subjects can be so subjective that it is impossible to reach a consensus.

I expect even the term "substantial reading" is subjective too, but this is not the place for "my library is bigger than yours" rows :)

[ERGONER]

.. I mean, this guy actually thinks that reading used to be easy and everyone 'just picked it up.' ..


Reading was and is relatively "easy", except in American government schools.

Alexis de Tocqueville marveled at how literate the common American people were ... even in Colonial Times. Many black slaves somehow learned to read in the most primitive of conditions.

Contrast that now with our vast government/public school empire... where most black & latino 4th Graders can NOT read at even a basic level.


According to the Federal 2005 National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) 'The Nation's Report Card' on reading assessment --

59% of Black 4th Graders and 56% of Latinos can NOT read -- even at a basic level.
For white 4th Graders, 25% can not read.

By 8th Grade, 49% of Blacks and 45% of Latinos still cannot read. For whites, 19% can't read by 8th Grade.

http://www.nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2006451

That should be a national scandal... but, of course, it doesn't cause a ripple in our noble government education bureaucracy.

Public schools should at least be able to teach kids how to read (especially our poor & under-privileged kids), even if the schools do nothing else.

Humans worldwide have learned to read for centuries -- without government pedagogues or facilities... it's not all that difficult.

[Wavicle]

Reading was and is relatively "easy", except in American government schools.

Alexis de Tocqueville marveled at how literate the common American people were ... even in Colonial Times. Many black slaves somehow learned to read in the most primitive of conditions.

How many areas of the world can you name today with "primitive" conditions, but a high literacy rate? Look outside the US borders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Literacy_rate_world.PNG). Our relatively wealthy neighbor to the north, Canada, enjoys a very high literacy rate. South of us things get very bad very quickly.

Consider central and south america: Most of them speak Spanish. Spanish is a much easier language to be literate in (than English). Vowels are fairly fixed in their sounds, groupings of letters don't suddenly drastically change the sounds they produce (like good ol' English: tough plough through though). Yet their literacy rates are low.


59% of Black 4th Graders and 56% of Latinos can NOT read -- even at a basic level.
For white 4th Graders, 25% can not read.

This doesn't argue that reading was easy until school came along. (I also cannot find that data specifically in the report cited) Links off of that report do, however, show a general improvement in reading performance of students over the last 35 years.


Humans worldwide have learned to read for centuries -- without government pedagogues or facilities... it's not all that difficult.

Yet wherever we look around us, in places lacking government oversight of education, pedagogues or facilities... we see high illiteracy.

So... what was magical back then? The simplest explanation would be that nothing was magical back then, literacy wasn't very high except in areas where it needed to be, and writers tended to highlight exceptional conditions.

[fuelair]

Gatto is a very strong critic of the American public {government} school system. Do you agree with him ?

Do you think truancy laws are a valid exercise of legal authority by state & local governments ?

A) on what?

B)Yes. The government has a legitimate interest in being sure all are educated to a level necessary to function in the society - up to the age determined by other legal/financial constraints.

[ERGONER]

JOHN Taylor Gatto attracted his fair share of attention in three decades teaching in some of New York's toughest schools.

In 1991 he was named 'New York Teacher of the Year', making even bigger headlines when he used his acceptance speech to resign from the profession.

But it's in his retirement that the former English teacher has generated the most interest, traveling the world speaking out against compulsory schooling.

...If Mr Gatto had his way, schooling would be voluntary and more children would be home-schooled, with curriculums tailored for individual students.

He says the primary flaw of the conventional school system is that it teaches children to remember information rather than understand it, which does not produce critical thinkers.

"Schools basically teach nothing at all except obedience" ....
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/schools-out-and-homes-in-says-education-rebel/2007/06/04/1180809426589.html