No Israeli "False-Flag" to Destroy Palestine?

[Thunder]

If the Israelis are soo keen to create false-flags, such as the USS Liberty, the Lavon affair, 9-11, and the anthrax attacks, why haven't the Israelis created a false-flag that would give them the domestic and international support required to destroy Hamas, Fatah, and maybe even remove the Palestinians?

The Palestinians have been a thorn in the side of Israel since 1948. And unlike in countries where ethnic cleansing is a reality, the Palestinian population has increased tremendously. From 100,000 in 1948 to 800,000 Israeli Arabs today..and who knows how many more in the West Bank and Gaza. There have been countless suicide and other terror attacks, killing hundreds of Israelis, many of them innocent civilians.

So why hasn't Israeli created a false-flag that would justify getting rid of them? Like a chemical attack at an airport or bus terminal, killing hundreds of israelis. Or a biological attack at Yad Vashem, infecting people as they visit the Holocaust museum. Such an act would seem so heinous that any Israeli response would seem legit, including deporting all Palestinian leaders and reoccupying the entire West Bank.

But this has not happened. For all of Israel's "sinister" intentions, they have failed to create a false flag that would supposedly justify their "ultimate" dream of removing the Palestinians.

This is why the whole idea of Israel being responsible for 9-11 or the anthrax attacks are truly stupid. Israel's greatest pain in the ass are the Palestinians, not Iraq or Iran. If Israel was really going to stage a false attack, it would be to frame the Palestinians, not random unaffiliated Arabs. With Saddam gone, the Palestinians are still there. If Iran is attacked, the Palestinians will still be firing rockets and sticking their tounges at Israel.

[Architect]

I hate to think what the super-right wing's explanation for this will be......

[CHF]

Cuz the Jews love to carry out black ops plans that are a million times more complicated and ridiculous than they need to be.

Duh!

[Azure]

I thought Hezbollah was their greatest threat.

[Thunder]

Naa...Hezbollah barely killed anyone in the last war. The Palestinians are the major head ache, and Israel seems unwilling to stage a false flag to frame them. I wonder why.

[Comsat Angel]

The Palestinians are a consistent, but not potentially fatal, threat to Israel. Their militias are containable, and currently fighting one another.
In fact, a large Palestinian population co-existent with Israel may potentially deter any aggressor wishing to destroy Israel with a nuclear attack <coughcoughIran>.

[JQH]

A bit of a derail, but whenever the news broadcasts talk about Palestinian "refugee camps" what they show loos like a proper town with brick houses, paved streets, TV aeriels etc. To me, "refugee camp" means a tent city as in Dafur. For some reason the Arab world doesn't bang on about Dafur, wonder why that is?

[gumboot]

That's because it's Muslims who are responsible for Darfur.

-Gumboot

[David Swidler]

One could also argue that it's Muslims who are responsible for the Palestinians in refugee camps for almost 60 years now, but that doesn't stop them from making noise.

[gumboot]

There's no handy Jews living in Darfur though, so it's a little harder to ignore the fact that they're doing it to themselves.

-Gumboot

[PhantomWolf]

One could also argue that it's Muslims who are responsible for the Palestinians in refugee camps for almost 60 years now, but that doesn't stop them from making noise.

Muslim countries won't take in refuges.

[mailman]

One could also argue that it's Muslims who are responsible for the Palestinians in refugee camps for almost 60 years now, but that doesn't stop them from making noise.

Well think about it though...if you were Egypt would you want a terrorist piece of scum like Arafat in your country?

Of course not and none of the other religion of peace countries want the terrorist scum that makes up the palestinian population in their countries as well simply because of the destabalising influence that influx would have.

Im sure we can find an excuse to blame Israel for that too! :D

Mailman

[David Swidler]

Well think about it though...if you were Egypt would you want a terrorist piece of scum like Arafat in your country?

Of course not and none of the other religion of peace countries want the terrorist scum that makes up the palestinian population in their countries as well simply because of the destabalising influence that influx would have.

Im sure we can find an excuse to blame Israel for that too! :D

Mailman

Let's be clear on this: The Palestinian population, whether in Israel, as citizens of other countries or as refugees denied such citizenship, is not "made up of terrorist scum". The refugees are primarily poor pawns in regional politics with little or no recourse to remedy their situation.

[Mobyseven]

The Palestinians are a consistent, but not potentially fatal, threat to Israel.

Given the current rate of population growth, there will be in the foreseeable future more non-jews than jews living in Israel.

That could cause a ruchus...

[Thunder]

This is why a Palestinian state is essential for the future of a Jewish state. there are already as many jews and arabs betwen the sea and the river. the only way israel will remain a jewish state if if they:

a. form an arab state next to it.
b. annex the west bank and gaza and strip the arabs of civil rights.
c. forceably remove all the arabs from between the river and the sea.

clearly b and c are not going to happen...so a will be the most likely outcome.

[MaGZ]

If the Israelis are soo keen to create false-flags, such as the USS Liberty, the Lavon affair, 9-11, and the anthrax attacks, why haven't the Israelis created a false-flag that would give them the domestic and international support required to destroy Hamas, Fatah, and maybe even remove the Palestinians?

The Palestinians have been a thorn in the side of Israel since 1948. And unlike in countries where ethnic cleansing is a reality, the Palestinian population has increased tremendously. From 100,000 in 1948 to 800,000 Israeli Arabs today..and who knows how many more in the West Bank and Gaza. There have been countless suicide and other terror attacks, killing hundreds of Israelis, many of them innocent civilians.

So why hasn't Israeli created a false-flag that would justify getting rid of them? Like a chemical attack at an airport or bus terminal, killing hundreds of israelis. Or a biological attack at Yad Vashem, infecting people as they visit the Holocaust museum. Such an act would seem so heinous that any Israeli response would seem legit, including deporting all Palestinian leaders and reoccupying the entire West Bank.

But this has not happened. For all of Israel's "sinister" intentions, they have failed to create a false flag that would supposedly justify their "ultimate" dream of removing the Palestinians.

This is why the whole idea of Israel being responsible for 9-11 or the anthrax attacks are truly stupid. Israel's greatest pain in the ass are the Palestinians, not Iraq or Iran. If Israel was really going to stage a false attack, it would be to frame the Palestinians, not random unaffiliated Arabs. With Saddam gone, the Palestinians are still there. If Iran is attacked, the Palestinians will still be firing rockets and sticking their tounges at Israel.

I think the reason why the Israelis have not created a false-flag operation to deal with the Pals. is because most of the world–especially the countries in Europe–are now wise to something like that. Israel has few cards to play.

[The Great Hairy One]

I think the reason why the Israelis have not created a false-flag operation to deal with the Pals. is because most of the world–especially the countries in Europe–are now wise to something like that. Israel has few cards to play.


Uh, what?? That's just crazy talk.

Cheers,
TGHO

[MaGZ]

Muslim countries won't take in refuges.

That’s not true. There are Palestinian refuges in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan. They are refuges because of the actions of Israel.

[MaGZ]

Well think about it though...if you were Egypt would you want a terrorist piece of scum like Arafat in your country?

Of course not and none of the other religion of peace countries want the terrorist scum that makes up the palestinian population in their countries as well simply because of the destabalising influence that influx would have.

Im sure we can find an excuse to blame Israel for that too! :D

Mailman

Arafat was born in Egypt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat

[MaGZ]

Let's be clear on this: The Palestinian population, whether in Israel, as citizens of other countries or as refugees denied such citizenship, is not "made up of terrorist scum". The refugees are primarily poor pawns in regional politics with little or no recourse to remedy their situation.

The Palestinians have no recourse because there is no country in the world that will champion their cause and stand up to International Jewry.

[MaGZ]

Given the current rate of population growth, there will be in the foreseeable future more non-jews than jews living in Israel.

That could cause a ruchus...

That is why the Jews do not want a single state solution to the ‘problem.’

[Slayhamlet]

The Palestinians have no recourse because there is no country in the world that will champion their cause and stand up to International Jewry.

Iran and Syria don't champion their cause?

[MaGZ]

This is why a Palestinian state is essential for the future of a Jewish state. there are already as many jews and arabs betwen the sea and the river. the only way israel will remain a jewish state if if they:

a. form an arab state next to it.
b. annex the west bank and gaza and strip the arabs of civil rights.
c. forceably remove all the arabs from between the river and the sea.

clearly b and c are not going to happen...so a will be the most likely outcome.

I think the ruling Israelis have chosen:


d. Keep the current situation. As long as the US and rest of the world don’t complain, what is the problem?

[MaGZ]

Iran and Syria don't champion their cause?

Yes they do.
I was referring to major powers. An example in the past would have been the Soviet Union.

[KoihimeNakamura]

Iran isn't a major power? Seriously, if that's true, why did the US favor a peace settlement in the 1970's? While it's true that the US no longer wants peace with the current power of Hamas... you'd think "International Jewry" (which doesn't exist..) would have more sway than that!

rest of the world don’t complain

The UN has.

[The Great Hairy One]

I'm just sitting here, shaking my head in amazement at MaGZ's posts. Wow.

Cheers,
TGHO

[MaGZ]

Iran isn't a major power? Seriously, if that's true, why did the US favor a peace settlement in the 1970's? While it's true that the US no longer wants peace with the current power of Hamas... you'd think "International Jewry" (which doesn't exist..) would have more sway than that!



The UN has.


International Jewry does exist. It is called Zionism and it has America under its thumb.

A major power today would be the European Community, the UK, Russia, China and the US.
You can forget about the US standing up to Israel and I do not see in the immediate future any other nation doing so.

I take it your 1970's reference is to 'Camp David' facilitated by Jimmy Carter, who perhaps is the only major political figure today that is concerned with the plight of the Palestinians--a political figure who is no longer in power.

[The Great Hairy One]

International Jewry does exist. It is called Zionism and it has America under its thumb.


Define "international jewry" please. All Zionism is, is the support for the right for Israel to exist as a state and a nation. Nothing more than that.

If you mean by "under it's thumb" that the US supports the right for Israel to exist, like the US supports the right for China, Zimbabwe, Pakistan, Iran, etc., to exist, then yes, what you are saying is correct. Otherwise, you're just making stuff up.

Cheers,
TGHO

[gumboot]

International Jewry does exist. It is called Zionism and it has America under its thumb.


Are you aware that this is a conspiracy theory shared by Nazis and Radical Islam?

-Gumboot

[Slayhamlet]

Are you aware that this is a conspiracy theory shared by Nazis and Radical Islam?

-Gumboot

Of course he is. That's why he believes it, after all.

[PhantomWolf]

That’s not true. There are Palestinian refuges in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan. They are refuges because of the actions of Israel.

No, they herd them into refuge camps rather then actually taking them in and letting them intergrate and live in the country, becoming residents and citizens, like the western countries do. Same in Pakistan and other muslim countries.

[mailman]

Let's be clear on this: The Palestinian population, whether in Israel, as citizens of other countries or as refugees denied such citizenship, is not "made up of terrorist scum". The refugees are primarily poor pawns in regional politics with little or no recourse to remedy their situation.

You make the point much more elegantly than me. The countries around the area dont want the "refugees" simply because of the destabilising influence it would have on their countries security.

I mean honestly, would you want an armed bunch of scum called Hamas suddenly rocking up and becoming part of your population...who's only real skill seems to be able to destabalise regional affairs?

I dont blame countries like Egypt, Syria, Lebanon et al wanting to keep these people out. But then Palestinians dont help themselves by detonating on public transport or electing scum like hamas (and to a certain extent hisbulla) in to power.

Mailman

[Chaos]

If the Israelis are soo keen to create false-flags, such as the USS Liberty, the Lavon affair, 9-11, and the anthrax attacks, why haven't the Israelis created a false-flag that would give them the domestic and international support required to destroy Hamas, Fatah, and maybe even remove the Palestinians?

The Palestinians have been a thorn in the side of Israel since 1948. And unlike in countries where ethnic cleansing is a reality, the Palestinian population has increased tremendously. From 100,000 in 1948 to 800,000 Israeli Arabs today..and who knows how many more in the West Bank and Gaza. There have been countless suicide and other terror attacks, killing hundreds of Israelis, many of them innocent civilians.

So why hasn't Israeli created a false-flag that would justify getting rid of them? Like a chemical attack at an airport or bus terminal, killing hundreds of israelis. Or a biological attack at Yad Vashem, infecting people as they visit the Holocaust museum. Such an act would seem so heinous that any Israeli response would seem legit, including deporting all Palestinian leaders and reoccupying the entire West Bank.

But this has not happened. For all of Israel's "sinister" intentions, they have failed to create a false flag that would supposedly justify their "ultimate" dream of removing the Palestinians.

This is why the whole idea of Israel being responsible for 9-11 or the anthrax attacks are truly stupid. Israel's greatest pain in the ass are the Palestinians, not Iraq or Iran. If Israel was really going to stage a false attack, it would be to frame the Palestinians, not random unaffiliated Arabs. With Saddam gone, the Palestinians are still there. If Iran is attacked, the Palestinians will still be firing rockets and sticking their tounges at Israel.

The one CT answer to this I can come up with (and it is not *truly* CT because it sort of makes sense) is that, if Israel (it *never* "Israel" in CT, it is "The Jews (tm)") were to manufacture a terrorist attack that would give it justification to do whatever they want, the first thing CT´ers (uh... I mean, "alert citizens concerned about the Zionist menace" or something like that) would claim is that this attack was manufactured by The Jews (tm) to give Israel a free hand against the Palestinians.

On the other hand, CT´ers *always* claim that The Jews (tm) did it, so that wouldn´t be a difference...

[brodski]

Naa...Hezbollah barely killed anyone in the last war. The Palestinians are the major head ache, and Israel seems unwilling to stage a false flag to frame them. I wonder why.

Have you ever considered that there is no Palestinian terrorism at all, and that every so called “attack” against Israel is a false flag op, designed to gain sympathy for Jews and Israelis, and to secure more US aid and soft loans?

No me neither, but then that’s because we’re not paranoid anti-Semitic nuts. :D

[MaGZ]

No, they herd them into refuge camps rather then actually taking them in and letting them intergrate and live in the country, becoming residents and citizens, like the western countries do. Same in Pakistan and other muslim countries.

I think the Palestinians are fairly integrated in Jordan.

[MaGZ]

You make the point much more elegantly than me. The countries around the area dont want the "refugees" simply because of the destabilising influence it would have on their countries security.

I mean honestly, would you want an armed bunch of scum called Hamas suddenly rocking up and becoming part of your population...who's only real skill seems to be able to destabalise regional affairs?

I dont blame countries like Egypt, Syria, Lebanon et al wanting to keep these people out. But then Palestinians dont help themselves by detonating on public transport or electing scum like hamas (and to a certain extent hisbulla) in to power.

Mailman

Why do you consider Hamas to be scum?

Shouldn’t they be considered a legitimate resistance group against Israeli oppression?

[NeoRicen]

Why do you consider Hamas to be scum?

Shouldn’t they be considered a legitimate resistance group against Israeli oppression?
Umm, NO. They suicide bomb innocent people.

You can argue for the existance of a palestinian state but advocating the suicide bombings of innocent people because of the alleged actions of their government has no definition other than evil.

[Liszt]

International Jewry does exist. It is called Zionism and it has America under its thumb.



Zionism is a political stance, supported by the cash from Christian churches in the US. (billions? I don´t know how much) and some Jews do not support Israel anyway. It also, again, confuses race with religion.

This is a really interesting thread to read, thanks to all concerned :)

[Liszt]

Umm, NO. They suicide bomb innocent people.

You can argue for the existance of a palestinian state but advocating the suicide bombings of innocent people because of the alleged actions of their government has no definition other than evil.

the death rate is about 9:1, with Palestine having far more deaths, especially children, than Israel

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

[NeoRicen]

the death rate is about 9:1, with Palestine having far more deaths, especially children, than Israel

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

That doesn't justify anything? Are the palestinian deaths a direct result of bombins by non-military/government Isreali citizens?

[Liszt]

That doesn't justify anything? Are the palestinian deaths a direct result of bombins by non-military/government Isreali citizens?

I know it doesn´t, it was just a FYI

Frankly, a dead human is a dead human. Israel should stop bombing Palestine, and Palestine should stop sending suicide bombers into Israel. If only it were that simple.

[JC Fla]

the death rate is about 9:1, with Palestine having far more deaths, especially children, than Israel

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

After a little research, the article you listed, and the site it is connected to, seems to be nothing more than a pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel site. The site and the articles on it seem to miss the fact that many Palestinian leaders call for the eradication of Israel, not a fair peace. Seems more like a front than an actual news or information outlet.

http://www.merip.org/index.html

[Slayhamlet]

Zionism is a political stance, supported by the cash from Christian churches in the US. (billions? I don´t know how much) and some Jews do not support Israel anyway. It also, again, confuses race with religion.

This is a really interesting thread to read, thanks to all concerned :)

Christian churches in America don't give millions of dollars, much less billions, to Israel. Where did you get this idea?

[Liszt]

After a little research, the article you listed, and the site it is connected to, seems to be nothing more than a pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel site. The site and the articles on it seem to miss the fact that many Palestinian leaders call for the eradication of Israel, not a fair peace. Seems more like a front than an actual news or information outlet.

http://www.merip.org/index.html

You are right, the site has a strong bias, but the figures are still accurate. People like john Pilger will back it up, or Robert Fisk. Or Israelis such as Israel Shamir.

On a side note, I know many Israelis, but no Palstinians. This should make me biased towards Israel, shouldn´t it?

[Liszt]

Christian churches in America don't give millions of dollars, much less billions, to Israel. Where did you get this idea?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=israel+donations+christian

1.3 million hits, which I do not want to read.

I was asking, not informing, sorry. Is it true? I know that the big Christians, Robertson, Falwell, Graham etc are/were strong supporters. financial support?

My point was that Isreal has more support from Christians than Jews, numbers (if not percentage) wise.

But even that might not be true. Frankly, it is a pain in the arse to double check every fact. I thought that was what you guys were for.

[MaGZ]

Umm, NO. They suicide bomb innocent people.

You can argue for the existance of a palestinian state but advocating the suicide bombings of innocent people because of the alleged actions of their government has no definition other than evil.

I am not in favor of suicide bombs. Israeli missiles kill innocent civilians when they assassinate Hamas personal.

[Liszt]

I am not in favor of suicide bombs. Israeli missiles kill innocent civilians when they assassinate Hamas personal.

Jack Straw said this about Yassin´s assasination

"All of us understand Israel's need to protect itself - and it is fully entitled to do that - against the terrorism which affects it, within international law. But it is not entitled to go in for this kind of unlawful killing and we condemn it. It is unacceptable, it is unjustified and it is very unlikely to achieve its objectives."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Yassin

Hellfire missiles are probably overkill for a guy in a wheelchair.

[MaGZ]

Jack Straw said this about Yassin´s assasination

"All of us understand Israel's need to protect itself - and it is fully entitled to do that - against the terrorism which affects it, within international law. But it is not entitled to go in for this kind of unlawful killing and we condemn it. It is unacceptable, it is unjustified and it is very unlikely to achieve its objectives."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Yassin

Hellfire missiles are probably overkill for a guy in a wheelchair.

I agree with Jack Straw and I understand his is Jewish.

[gumboot]

Jack Straw said this about Yassin´s assasination

"All of us understand Israel's need to protect itself - and it is fully entitled to do that - against the terrorism which affects it, within international law. But it is not entitled to go in for this kind of unlawful killing and we condemn it. It is unacceptable, it is unjustified and it is very unlikely to achieve its objectives."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Yassin

Hellfire missiles are probably overkill for a guy in a wheelchair.



The Brits and Americans had no problem dropping two bombs on Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. The heaviest Hellfire warhead is 20lbs. The Americans used two 500lb bombs.

-Gumboot

[boloboffin]

Israel has very few cards left to play, but no one will stand up to International Jewry?

[brodski]

Jack Straw said this about Yassin´s assasination

"All of us understand Israel's need to protect itself - and it is fully entitled to do that - against the terrorism which affects it, within international law. But it is not entitled to go in for this kind of unlawful killing and we condemn it. It is unacceptable, it is unjustified and it is very unlikely to achieve its objectives."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Yassin

Hellfire missiles are probably overkill for a guy in a wheelchair.

Can you think why Straw may possible have wanted to appeal to an anti-Isreali sentiment?
There are similar reasons why Meacher found it politically prudent to support 9/11 LIHOP theories.

[Liszt]

The Brits and Americans had no problem dropping two bombs on Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. The heaviest Hellfire warhead is 20lbs. The Americans used two 500lb bombs.

-Gumboot

joking, right? Yassin was also blind. They could have just dug a hole in front of him.

What happened to special ops? No, it is one guy and a weapons catalogue (thanks bill hicks)

[Liszt]

Can you think why Straw may possible have wanted to appeal to an anti-Isreali sentiment?
There are similar reasons why Meacher found it politically prudent to support 9/11 LIHOP theories.

i understand what you mean about Meacher, but not Straw. Straw seem to really mean it at the time, and there was no reason for him to pander to anti Israel sentiment in the UK.

[gumboot]

joking, right? Yassin was also blind. They could have just dug a hole in front of him.

What happened to special ops? No, it is one guy and a weapons catalogue (thanks bill hicks)


Hollywood is a wonderful thing, but in reality important terrorists aren't that easy to reach using a small covert team.

Are you familiar with the activities of Task Force Ranger in Somalia during 1993?

-Gumboot

[brodski]

I agree with Jack Straw and I understand his is Jewish.

Straw has some Jewish ancestry, but he does not identify as such either religiously or culturally. He has however faced some anti-Semitic political smears in the past- which had the potential to be very damaging to his political popularity in his constituency.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I am not in favor of suicide bombs. Israeli missiles kill innocent civilians when they assassinate Hamas personal.
Argumentum ad hominem tu quoque.

[brodski]

i understand what you mean about Meacher, but not Straw. Straw seem to really mean it at the time, and there was no reason for him to pander to anti Israel sentiment in the UK.

Blackburn (Straws constituency for those playing outside of the UK) is an area with strong neo-nazi groups as well as many radical (anti-semetic) Muslim groups. Straw has faced smears that he’s part of some ultra secret Jewish cabal controlling the Blair cabinet, criticizing Israel in this way whilst defending her right to self defence is classic dog whistle politics.

[MaGZ]

The Brits and Americans had no problem dropping two bombs on Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. The heaviest Hellfire warhead is 20lbs. The Americans used two 500lb bombs.

-Gumboot

I think the difference is one was a religious leader whereas the other was a terrorist in a war zone.

[Liszt]

Hollywood is a wonderful thing, but in reality important terrorists aren't that easy to reach using a small covert team.

Are you familiar with the activities of Task Force Ranger in Somalia during 1993?

-Gumboot

You mean this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_%281993%29

It was also book and a film, seven sylables, your time starts...now.

No, I don´t know anything about it, but it looks facinating and pretty terrible. Thanks for the link (wait, I put the link up)

Oh, for any soldiers out there, the person responsible for cooking the chicken often has sex with it first. Well, I know a few soldiers who did it. (when they were "found out" - or actually, owned up, they all just laughed. Yuk.)

[Liszt]

Blackburn (Straws constituency for those playing outside of the UK) is an area with strong neo-nazi groups as well as many radical (anti-semetic) Muslim groups. Straw has faced smears that he’s part of some ultra secret Jewish cabal controlling the Blair cabinet, criticizing Israel in this way whilst defending her right to self defence is classic dog whistle politics.

I stand corrected. Also, I remember Craig Murray saying something similar in his blog once.

[gumboot]

I think the difference is one was a religious leader whereas the other was a terrorist in a war zone.

He was the co-founder of Hamas - a terrorist organisation. And in case you've missed it, Israel has been a war zone for at least 50 years.

The stupid old fool taunted Israel for not responding strongly enough to their suicide attacks. He was a piece of scum and he got what he deserved.

Personally I think the ridiculous overkill of using hellfire missiles was done intentionally, for PR purposes, in response to his taunts.

Reminds me of a Marine officer I read about in a book who was very popular with the troops. During an exercise he opted to take out an annoying enemy sniper with a TOW missile.

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

You mean this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_%281993%29

It was also book and a film, seven sylables, your time starts...now.

No, I don´t know anything about it, but it looks facinating and pretty terrible. Thanks for the link (wait, I put the link up)

Oh, for any soldiers out there, the person responsible for cooking the chicken often has sex with it first. Well, I know a few soldiers who did it. (when they were "found out" - or actually, owned up, they all just laughed. Yuk.)



If you're familiar with it you're also well aware of just how difficult it is to take out important enemy leaders with even the most highly trained soldiers.

-Gumboot

ETA. I'm not only talking about the Battle of Mogadishu (and "Black Hawk Down" has three syllables, not seven), I'm talking about the entire two months of Operation Gothic Serpent.

[Slayhamlet]

Oh, for any soldiers out there, the person responsible for cooking the chicken often has sex with it first. Well, I know a few soldiers who did it. (when they were "found out" - or actually, owned up, they all just laughed. Yuk.)

What are you talking about? :boggled:

[JC Fla]

You are right, the site has a strong bias, but the figures are still accurate. People like john Pilger will back it up, or Robert Fisk. Or Israelis such as Israel Shamir.

On a side note, I know many Israelis, but no Palstinians. This should make me biased towards Israel, shouldn´t it?

No necessarily. A strong bias makes the figures suspect. "Cooking" the numbers to achieve a desired effect is quite common.

How many Israelis you know has no effect on your opinion or bias. A strawman, if you like. I do not need to know a certain number of flat earthers or astronomers to be able to decide if the earth is flat.

As to figures, well evidence backs them up, not the word of any one person. I take these figures with the same grain of salt I do the "Iraqi's killed by the US" figures I see. I assume a agenda or bias behind them.

[Liszt]

What are you talking about? :boggled:

there was no irony, hidden meaning or sarcasm in the post. They really did have sex with the food, purely for kicks.

This was during the Falklands, and I think it also happened in Northern Ireland. Drunk kids, too young to be soldiers really, trying to make light of their situation.

but I also knew someone who would go into the MDs office and urinate in the coffee pot. Perhaps it is just my friends who are wierd. Oh yes, and another guy, who refuses to get a letter box because "people piss through them" Who? Well, he did. God, I just thought of some more, but they are too horrible to even think about.

[Liszt]

No necessarily. A strong bias makes the figures suspect. "Cooking" the numbers to achieve a desired effect is quite common.

How many Israelis you know has no effect on your opinion or bias. A strawman, if you like. I do not need to know a certain number of flat earthers or astronomers to be able to decide if the earth is flat.

As to figures, well evidence backs them up, not the word of any one person. I take these figures with the same grain of salt I do the "Iraqi's killed by the US" figures I see. I assume a agenda or bias behind them.


Here is a list of the names of the dead children

http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2007.html

you do of course make valid points. Who to trust? The Red Cross? They underestimated deaths in both the Holocaust and the Dresden bombings by many, many multiples (250,000 for the Holocaust, 25,000 for Dresden. This is from the top of my head, so if you know for sure the historical RC figures, please post them).

Which is why, as most people here know, it is vital to get as much information before investing any "belief" in anything. I sit on the fence on practically every contraversial (ie conspiracy) issue.

[JC Fla]

The names of the children do not prove how they died.

It is unfortunate that they are dead, don't get me wrong, but the listings contain assumes, alleges and in short, lack of proof. You are using the same website to "prove" what they had previously had claimed. Almost a circular argument.

[MaGZ]

He was the co-founder of Hamas - a terrorist organisation. And in case you've missed it, Israel has been a war zone for at least 50 years.

The stupid old fool taunted Israel for not responding strongly enough to their suicide attacks. He was a piece of scum and he got what he deserved.

Personally I think the ridiculous overkill of using hellfire missiles was done intentionally, for PR purposes, in response to his taunts.

Reminds me of a Marine officer I read about in a book who was very popular with the troops. During an exercise he opted to take out an annoying enemy sniper with a TOW missile.

-Gumboot

So, your position is that anyone who is a member of Hamas should be killed on site.

Would you apply this same standard to the IRA?

Should the Gestapo have arrested the members of the French Resistance or killed them on site?

Got any answers?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

So, your position is that anyone who is a member of Hamas should be killed on site.
Sweeping generalization. Gumboot spoke specifically of one of the co-founders of Hamas.

Would you apply this same standard to the IRA?
Red herring; this is not relevant to the discussion.

Should the Gestapo have arrested the members of the French Resistance or killed them on site?
Red herring and Godwin's Law.

[MaGZ]

Sweeping generalization. Gumboot spoke specifically of one of the co-founders of Hamas.


Red herring; this is not relevant to the discussion.


Red herring and Godwin's Law.

Let gumboot speak for himself.

If you find these questions too difficult to give well reasoned answers, then just say so.

[brodski]

So, your position is that anyone who is a member of Hamas should be killed on site. Which site do you mean?


Would you apply this same standard to the IRA? the IRA where effectively contained with a policing operation- Israel does not have this option with Hammas as the sovereign nations they operate from won’t allow them to.

Should the Gestapo have arrested the members of the French Resistance or killed them on site? Is this the same site that Hammas leaders were on?
Where is this site, and what effect does it have on military policy?

[beachnut]

So, your position is that anyone who is a member of Hamas should be killed on site.

Would you apply this same standard to the IRA?

Should the Gestapo have arrested the members of the French Resistance or killed them on site?

Got any answers?
Sight? What would a neoNazi do?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Let gumboot speak for himself.

If you find these questions too difficult to give well reasoned answers, then just say so.
If you only want one person to answer, send a PM. Your questions are invalid. The appropriate response is to point out why they are invalid. The only appropriate answer is, "Mu."

[Liszt]

Let gumboot speak for himself.

If you find these questions too difficult to give well reasoned answers, then just say so.

lol

while I don´t agree with MaGZ most of the time, he does a good job, ON HIS OWN, of standing up to all you guys, and he (or she) occasionally makes good points.

Yeah, let Gumboot speak for himself.

Anyway, british did kill IRA members http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoot-to-kill_policy_in_Northern_Ireland

there is a whole lot more where that came from. It is wrong, of course, all of it is.

Joke -
Q why did you shoot the suspect fifteen times?
A Becasue I ran out of bullets

(not funny, because it´s true)

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

lol

while I don´t agree with MaGZ most of the time, he does a good job, ON HIS OWN, of standing up to all you guys, and he (or she) occasionally makes good points.

Yeah, let Gumboot speak for himself.
<snip>
1. No one is preventing Gumboot from answering the post, or not, in whatever manner he sees fit.
2. This is a public discussion forum.
3. This isn't a diplomatic round-table, or a formal debate, where strict rules of discussion are the norm.

[Liszt]

chill out Arkan

Here´s more off topic stuff on Brits shooting Irish

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29

Everyone knows U2´s song, Sunday Bloody Sunday. How many know it is about this?

(my guess, more than 50% here, less than 50% out on the street with all the scum)

[Gravy]

lol

while I don´t agree with MaGZ most of the time, he does a good job, ON HIS OWN, of standing up to all you guys, and he (or she) occasionally makes good points.

Yeah, let Gumboot speak for himself.

Anyway, british did kill IRA members http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoot-to-kill_policy_in_Northern_Ireland

there is a whole lot more where that came from. It is wrong, of course, all of it is.

Joke -
Q why did you shoot the suspect fifteen times?
A Becasue I ran out of bullets

(not funny, because it´s true)If by "standing up to" you mean repeatedly ranting about missiles hitting WTC 7, I agree with you. Standing up to reason with absurdity doesn't take any courage though. It takes not giving a damn, or simply being disconnected from reality.

[MaGZ]

Sight? What would a neoNazi do?


Question for you beachnut,

What rights should neoNazis have in America?

Don’t you claim to be one of those military guys defending American freedoms?

[JimBenArm]

Question for you beachnut,

What rights should neoNazis have in America?

Don’t you claim to be one of those military guys defending American freedoms?
They have the same rights as everyone else. That's what I defended when I was in. They have the right to be obnoxious fools. I also have the right to point out they are obnoxious fools. Just like you are.

[Liszt]

If by "standing up to" you mean repeatedly ranting about missiles hitting WTC 7, I agree with you. Standing up to reason with absurdity doesn't take any courage though. It takes not giving a damn, or simply being disconnected from reality.

Freedom of speach is so important, we have to accept that there will be bonkers bits.

MaGZ could easily go into the LCF and have people agree with him, but he chooses to test himself here (I think.)

Missile hitting WTC7? wow.

But not as bonkers as say, writing a book about how Mark Hamil (aka Luke Skywalker) is a time and space traveller, but if you ask him, he´ll deny it, becasue there are multiple Marks.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Music-Time-Preston-B-Nichols/dp/0967816203

I have this book. Read it and weep.

[Gravy]

Huh? What is the test? MaGZ isn't examining his absurd beliefs. He's simply asserting them again and again and again. He started five threads about a goddamn missile hitting WTC 7. Do you really admire an an anti-Semite who spouts pure idiocy and is immune to reason?

[Liszt]

Huh? What is the test? MaGZ isn't examining his absurd beliefs. He's simply asserting them again and again and again. He started five threads about a goddamn missile hitting WTC 7. Do you really admire an an anti-Semite who spouts pure idiocy and is immune to reason?

I don´t read 911 stuff here, so I missed his stuff on WTC7.

OK, the reason I am here is to examine my absurd beliefs, and sometimes assume that other people do the same. Someone has a quote in his sig that says something like "I like to be proved wrong, becasue it reminds me that there is still so much to learn" or something similar. Intelligent people love to challenge their beliefs. Once I spent months reading nothing but Chritian books, just to try and understand what it is like to twist your beliefs. It is healthy. Sadly, many people spend their lives merely confirming what they already believe. MaGZ spends time reading stuff (your posts) which conflict with his beliefs.

I find all this very interesting, but then again, I have a degree in Psychology and love thinking about this sort of stuff.

And it would be nice to be able to convince MaGZ to say "Zionsists" instead of "Jews", don´t you think?

[chipmunk stew]

And it would be nice to be able to convince MaGZ to say "Zionsists" instead of "Jews", don´t you think?
Not really. Most antisemites these days are using the word "Zionists" in lieu of "Jews" and it's having the intended effect: people are much more susceptible to antisemitic propaganda that begins with "I'm not anti-Jewish but I am anti-Zionist. The Zionists..." than that which begins with "The Jews..." And yet, the message that follows each case is identical.

So no, I'd much rather he just come right out and say what he means.

[JC Fla]

Liszt, having a healthy debate and hearing other peoples views is what we are all about here...but after hearing the same answers, the same statements, the same outlandish claims, well, even the most well meaning person grows a bit tired of it...and tends to lash out at the 4,356th person who begins a post with "I bet you guys don't know this..." or debates with false premise or unreasonable and/or hateful arguments.