How bad is Teflon... really?

[mylfmyhnr]

I keep hearing about how bad Teflon/non-stick coating is, how it breaks down at high temps, how it kills birds... But is it really so bad as to be carcinogenic? Or is this just more hype on the "everything gives you cancer" bandwagon? Do I really need to get rid of all my pans? I heard a lot about this when silly enough to think Dr. Mercola was sane, but I've come across other sites as well. This (http://www.tuberose.com/Teflon.html) one seems fine for this page, if a bit alarmist, but the site itself is a holistic site that also denounces Fluoride. ARGH! I'm tired of everything being bad, but I do acknowledge that some things are, legitimately, bad. Thoughts? Suggestions? Should I switch to cast iron and fight the "you'll get iron poisoning" instead? Or spend a butt-load and get the fancy enameled cast iron and pretend to be a great French chef? HELP!

[Terry]

So far as I can tell, Teflon is pretty safe provided you don't overheat it. So don't overheat it then...

[andyandy]

how can something that reduces the time spent washing up be bad? :D

[mylfmyhnr]

So, what is overheating? In the oven? Preheating a pan to high? Medium? Is high alright, but only if you have food in the pan? Please define overheating.

[Ziggurat]

I keep hearing about how bad Teflon/non-stick coating is, how it breaks down at high temps, how it kills birds... But is it really so bad as to be carcinogenic?

Teflon breaks down at temperatures far higher than you are likely to be using it, unless you do something stupid like stick it in the oven or on a barbecue. Under its intended use conditions (in other words, not burning your food), there is no threat of this happening. And it's easy to stay within these conditions: just don't put an empty pan on the stovetop, and don't burn your food, and you'll know that you aren't getting hot enough.

Or is this just more hype on the "everything gives you cancer" bandwagon?

Pretty much. For something like this, which has been in widespread use for a long time, don't believe any cancer warnings that come from testing lab animals at high doses. Only an epidemiological study of actual teflon pan users would have any merit

Do I really need to get rid of all my pans?

No, you don't need to get rid of anything. You might want to consider other alternatives to Teflon when your current pans wear out (I'm a fan of anodized alluminum myself), but the primary motivation there should be durability. The only significant problem I know of with Teflon is that it doesn't last very long.

[parrotslave]

Teflon has been associated with some pretty severe birth defects in the children of workers who make the stuff. If you google "birth defects and teflon" you should get a bunch of sites.

Polymer fume fever or teflon flu can result from inhaling the gas released by overheated teflon. The flu-like symptoms are much worse in smokers and is fatal in birds.

This article has a decent summary of some of the problems associated with teflon.


http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=4716

[Rob Lister]

Agree with Zig.
Question: how many deaths can be attributed to Teflon use in the home?
Probable Answer: 0

[mijopaalmc]

So, what is overheating? In the oven? Preheating a pan to high? Medium? Is high alright, but only if you have food in the pan? Please define overheating.

Heating the pan so hot you can see "vapors" rising off it. (As you can see, I don't treat my cookware very well:rolleyes:). Usually, this means between the boiling point of water and the smoke point of most cooking oils.

[Mr. Skinny]

Back in the late '70's I worked for a company that made some teflon parts for the chemical process industry.

Some of our workers reported a high rate if illness, so we had NIOSH come in an do a study. The found that some of our employees were breathing in teflon vapors from, among other things, small bits of teflon being pyrolized on the ends of cigarettes, high tool bit speeds when machining teflon parts, etc. We made a lot of changes (especially banning smoking in the plant), and the illness rates dropped dramatically, as did teflon by products in urine samples from employees.

You might want to google "teflon fever".

Hope this helps.

ETA: parrotslave beat me to it, and yes, polymer fume fever is an even better name.

[parrotslave]

In the 20/20 report on teflon from a few years ago they fried a piece of bacon on the stove and the pan got over the danger point before the bacon was done.

I threw out all the teflon when I got birds and now use anodized aluminum and stainless steel pans for cooking.

Also, overheating cooking oil in a non-teflon pan can release fumes that are harmful to birds. Best to not have the birds in the kitchen when cooking and use a ventilation fan.

According to wikipedia the danger point starts between 300 °C and 450 °C.

[mylfmyhnr]

Okay, that all helps a bit. So I: won't buy new non-stick, but won't get rid of my old stuff. Will: use non-stick to scramble eggs and heat tomato sauce, but something else to brown and cook bacon. Well, stuff you cook at a higher temp. So, anything at the boiling point or below, okay, anything above that, no go.
So much out there is so hard to distinguish from good science. It sounds right, it looks right, but generally something about it doesn't feel right.

[Mr. Skinny]

It appears the consensus so far is: Don't be worried unless you have birds? :confused:

[Mr. Skinny]

Okay, that all helps a bit. So I: won't buy new non-stick, but won't get rid of my old stuff. Will: use non-stick to scramble eggs and heat tomato sauce, but something else to brown and cook bacon. Well, stuff you cook at a higher temp. So, anything at the boiling point or below, okay, anything above that, no go.
So much out there is so hard to distinguish from good science. It sounds right, it looks right, but generally something about it doesn't feel right.
Sounds entirely reasonable to me.

[Fnord]

A company called "Platinum Professional" falsely tells its customers that Teflon is made from formaldehyde, which is a known carcinogen. Thus, they reason, Teflon causes cancer.

Coincidentally, Platinum Professional sells stainless-steel cookware.

My only beefs with Teflon is that (1) it has an unappetizing color*, and (2) when scratched, it exposes the underlying aluminum.

Now, the effects of aluminum on the human body may be debatable, but cooking food with aluminum cookware tends to add an unpleasant metallic flavor* to the food.

(* - Subjective opinions only. Your tastes may vary.)

[Mr. Skinny]

Teflon has been associated with some pretty severe birth defects in the children of workers who make the stuff. If you google "birth defects and teflon" you should get a bunch of sites.

Polymer fume fever or teflon flu can result from inhaling the gas released by overheated teflon. The flu-like symptoms are much worse in smokers and is fatal in birds.

This article has a decent summary of some of the problems associated with teflon.


http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=4716
That was an interesting link, parrotslave. Hadn't really considered all the teflon containing sprays, these days. I don't use them much.

Given that we were talking pots and pans though, and that your link mentioned >550F temps, I think the OP is making a good decision.

[Mr. Skinny]

Now, the effects of aluminum on the human body may be debatable, but cooking food with aluminum cookware tends to add an unpleasant metallic flavor* to the food.

(* - Subjective opinions only. Your tastes may vary.)
Most of the food I cook has an unpleasant taste, so the cookware doesn't matter much. :)

I use stainless steel and cast iron mostly. Never noticed a metallic taste from either.

[parrotslave]

What bothers me is that they use it to coat carpets where babies crawl. And it is on stain resistant clothing, in cleaning products and coats some light bulbs. Some stoves have the burners and grills coated with it. And it was a challenge to find a toaster oven that wasn't coated with it. There is even a dental floss that is coated with it. It seems like it is everywhere.

Once I got my pans seasoned and learned to preheat the skillet I didn't have problems with sticking. It just took a short while to relearn how to cook.

[epepke]

Note that teflon is used as insulation in plenum because it is much safer at high temperatures than other materials.

It is extremely safe at room temperatures and cooking temperatures. It's very inert. Eat it and it just passes right through you.

It can be dangerous if you let a pan go dry on the stove and the pan gets red hot. So try to avoid that.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Isn't aluminum cookware associated with Alzeihmer's Disease?

But what do I know about toxic chemicals?
<----- I do this.

[Numenaster]

I like OP's idea of what to cook in what pan: I got a great stainless steel saute pan to replace my badly scarred Teflon frypans, and I've been delighted with the results on everything EXCEPT eggs. But for the first time ever I was able to get onions to actually turn golden brown, and "fond" to form during saute-ing, and meat to actually brown prior to going in the stew. If you put the pan in the sink right after use, while it's still hot, and run water in it right away nearly everything comes off just fine. Plus I don't have to worry about grabbing the non-scratching, flimsy useless spatulas any more.

[joobz]

Teflon is a highly fluorinated carbon chain. It has, what is known as, CO2-philic character. It is both hydrophobic and lipophobic, but possesses solubility similar to liquid and supercritical CO2.

Interestingly, fluorinated solvents (smaller molecule cousins of teflon) have high oxygen solubility (if you seen the abyss, it's that stuff), and emulsions of it is used as a blood substitute.

Also, there are a goodly number of implants that contain teflon and teflon surfaces. It is, indeed, a rather(everything has limits) safe molecule.

the concern (like almost all polymers) are the degradation products and or the synthesis agents (which can remain behind during production).

[ponderingturtle]

I keep hearing about how bad Teflon/non-stick coating is, how it breaks down at high temps, how it kills birds... But is it really so bad as to be carcinogenic? Or is this just more hype on the "everything gives you cancer" bandwagon? Do I really need to get rid of all my pans? I heard a lot about this when silly enough to think Dr. Mercola was sane, but I've come across other sites as well. This (http://www.tuberose.com/Teflon.html) one seems fine for this page, if a bit alarmist, but the site itself is a holistic site that also denounces Fluoride. ARGH! I'm tired of everything being bad, but I do acknowledge that some things are, legitimately, bad. Thoughts? Suggestions? Should I switch to cast iron and fight the "you'll get iron poisoning" instead? Or spend a butt-load and get the fancy enameled cast iron and pretend to be a great French chef? HELP!

If over heated it will emit toxic vapors but there is one easy way to not over heat it, never heat it with out some oil in it, the oil will smoke first and be a good warning.

Stainless is good, cast iron is perfectly healthy enameled or not, it just can make food taste funny if it is acidic but is great for many things.

There is no one pot or pan type that is perfect for everything, some things you really want non stick, others you want it to stick and brown the food better.

[ponderingturtle]

Heating the pan so hot you can see "vapors" rising off it. (As you can see, I don't treat my cookware very well:rolleyes:). Usually, this means between the boiling point of water and the smoke point of most cooking oils.

No it is over the smoke point of cooking oil. It is something like 550 degrees f

[ponderingturtle]

From Alton Brown


SCENE 9
The Kitchen
Myth #2
Fumes from overheated non-stick cookware can be fatal to birds?
[AB tests the temperature of a non-stick skillet on the burner]
The experiment continues ...

AB: [to Assistants] Wow. 490 degrees. After only 3 minutes. Kill it.

Another minute and the birds would be in serious trouble. And maybe the people too. See, some new research has shown that these fumes can cause flu-like symptoms that can last up to a couple of days in people. The key here, of course, is to not leave a non-stick vessel over or under high heat while it's empty. When there's food in the pan, of course, there's someplace for all that excess heat to go, so it's okay.
Still, at my house I've got a few rules. I don't use non-stick for any cooking method requiring a super-hot pan. I don't sear in it. I don't blacken in it. I don't even like to sauté in non-stick. And I sure as heck would never broil anything on a non-stick surface. Still, I own a lot of it. I like it. I've got muffin tins, cake pans. Heck, I've even got a nice griddle here that I use for nothing but making pancakes. But I never use it over anything but medium heat, okay?
So what does it come down to here? Well, if the old sailor had preferred his meat fried, rather than blackened, Polly would still be sitting on his shoulder.

ASSISTANT #1: It's the truth.
ASSISTANT #2: It's factual.
AB: So, pan fumes kill bird? This is no myth. This is a stone-cold food fact.


Good eats fan page, see the mythsmashers episode ("http://www.goodeatsfanpage.com/GEFP/index.htm)

[ponderingturtle]

I like OP's idea of what to cook in what pan: I got a great stainless steel saute pan to replace my badly scarred Teflon frypans, and I've been delighted with the results on everything EXCEPT eggs. But for the first time ever I was able to get onions to actually turn golden brown, and "fond" to form during saute-ing, and meat to actually brown prior to going in the stew. If you put the pan in the sink right after use, while it's still hot, and run water in it right away nearly everything comes off just fine. Plus I don't have to worry about grabbing the non-scratching, flimsy useless spatulas any more.

That is why you don't want all pans to be any one substance. Stainless browns better, but for some things non stick is much better.

I will say that I have stainless with nice heavy bottoms of sandwiched aluminum is what I have and I like and recommend it for most things, with a healthy supplement of cast iron frying pans. and one or two teflon pans.

[Chris Haynes]

Okay, that all helps a bit. So I: won't buy new non-stick, but won't get rid of my old stuff. Will: use non-stick to scramble eggs and heat tomato sauce, but something else to brown and cook bacon. Well, stuff you cook at a higher temp. So, anything at the boiling point or below, okay, anything above that, no go.
So much out there is so hard to distinguish from good science. It sounds right, it looks right, but generally something about it doesn't feel right.


We wore out the older teflon pans we used... and did buy some better new ones. Generally those are only used for foods that should not be burned. They are good for eggs, crepes and grilled cheese sandwiches. I sometimes will make a saute sauce with them, and they are very nice for Hollandaise sauce. They should never, ever be put into the oven.

For things that need a good deal of heat and a nice sear... we go for the cast iron pan. They are also good for putting into the oven. One thing I do is sear something like a pork tenderloin, and then put it into the oven to finish cooking. Another thing I do is roast a chunk of beef in the oven, and then after removing it from the oven, I let the roast rest on the cutting board while I make a gravy in the cast iron skillet.

As usual, always cook with good ventilation. Plus keep the birds out of the kitchen.

Teflon is also used in many other applications... like Gore-Tex and some medical devices.

[Mongrel]

. If you put the pan in the sink right after use, while it's still hot, and run water in it right away nearly everything comes off just fine. Plus I don't have to worry about grabbing the non-scratching, flimsy useless spatulas any more.

That's a really good way to deform the metal of the pan ;) Let it cool down a little and boil some water in the pan with a bit of detergent, silicon spatulas are surprisingly good at scraping the bits off

[Cuddles]

I'd never really thought of Teflon as dangerous. Does this mean Teflon lubrication sprays aren't such a good idea? They're so much tidier and more convenient than oil (for bikes and things), but presumably I end up inhaling some of it. How much Teflon do you need to be bad for you?

[casebro]

Give me a black cast iron pan anyday. Teflon sucks for frying. The only teflon I use is the pancake griddle in the stove, and since oil runs right off, the pancakes won't get that brown crust I love.

I do believe that cast iron pans work better with good old lard, or other saturated fats. Saturated fats are so much more stable that they season the pan better, and still prevent sticking when hot. Stainless won't season at all, everything sticks. Nothing will make a sunnyside-up egg like iron with lard, or coconut oil.

Teflon just was not neccessary until the veggie oil fad started.

Lard is the largest source of the healthy mono-unsaturated fats, at 40%, and it's ubiquitousness.

No. you don't want to steam clean the oils out of your cast iron. Nor wash with caustic detergents. I like those stainless spirally pads to act as zillions of scrapers. Once you get a good seasoning, it will clean up easily- until you burn the darn thing. Pay attention in the kitchen, for cast iron or teflon.

[Ziggurat]

Isn't aluminum cookware associated with Alzeihmer's Disease?

There's been some suggestion that aluminum is linked to Alzheimer's, but I think it might be more of a symptom than a cause, and cookware isn't the only possible source. Aluminum salts appear in antiperspirants, for example. I use hard anodized aluminum cookware, and as long as the surface doesn't get scratched (which is much harder to do than to teflon, though it's possible with sharp steel utensils), none of the aluminum is going to get absorbed into the food.

[Numenaster]

Oh, and OP mentioned "iron poisoning" from cast iron. Since iron is an essential mineral in your diet (unlike aluminum), you can deal with a substantial amount of it quite well. Anemia (shortage of iron) is a common problem, and most multivitamins contain iron to help combat this, but only up to 100% of the RDA for men (which is only about 2/3 of the RDA for menstruating women).

I used to be anemic myself, in fact. Of course I used to live on microwave popcorn, too. :blush:

[mhaze]

I keep hearing about how bad Teflon/non-stick coating is, how it breaks down at high temps, how it kills birds... But is it really so bad as to be carcinogenic? Or is this just more hype on the "everything gives you cancer" bandwagon? Do I really need to get rid of all my pans? I heard a lot about this when silly enough to think Dr. Mercola was sane, but I've come across other sites as well. This (http://www.tuberose.com/Teflon.html) one seems fine for this page, if a bit alarmist, but the site itself is a holistic site that also denounces Fluoride. ARGH! I'm tired of everything being bad, but I do acknowledge that some things are, legitimately, bad. Thoughts? Suggestions? Should I switch to cast iron and fight the "you'll get iron poisoning" instead? Or spend a butt-load and get the fancy enameled cast iron and pretend to be a great French chef? HELP!

I'll give you an alternative point of view, as related to the welding of teflon. This is essentially done in a special room with a big smokestack taking fumes way away from the people doing the work. The reason is hydrogen flouride, which is one of the most poisonous gases around and which is given off by burning teflon. That's worse than say, burning polyethylene or various other plastics.

Not that one ought to be particularly proud of inhaling any of them...

[casebro]

The link of aluminum to health issues has been de-bunked, long since. Aluminum is the most common metal in the earth's crust, we would not be sensitive to it. Except maybe as a required element. Hmmm, is it so ubiquitous that we don't even know how much we need? Frinstance, it is in every bit of pottery. Clay. Dust. Sea Salt..... Do all machinists get Altzheimers? Welders? Potters? How about all those ant-acids and buffers in our pills? Ever heard of Maalox? Alumina, or aluminum oxide. One pill would have as much as years of cooking in a pot.

[Fnord]

I have two Teflon-coated appliances, and both were given as gifts by 'loving' relatives. One is a George Foreman grill, and the other is a waffle iron. Useful in their own right, but with somewhat specialized.

[Mongrel]

I'll give you an alternative point of view, as related to the welding of teflon. This is essentially done in a special room with a big smokestack taking fumes way away from the people doing the work. The reason is hydrogen flouride, which is one of the most poisonous gases around and which is given off by burning teflon. That's worse than say, burning polyethylene or various other plastics.

Not that one ought to be particularly proud of inhaling any of them...


"All substances are poisons; there is none which is not a poison. The right dose differentiates a poison…." Paracelsus (1493-1541) (http://learn.caim.yale.edu/chemsafe/references/dose.html)