Botched Execution Raises ACLU's Ire

[Mephisto]

Somehow I fail to feel any sympathy for a man who killed a fellow inmate over a chess game argument by slamming his head into the floor and stomping on his throat. He then took the time to cut a piece of his prison uniform to strangle the man. The article doesn't state why Newton was in prison in the first place:

Ohio lethal injection takes 2 hours, 10 tries

POSTED: 4:52 p.m. EDT, May 25, 2007

LUCASVILLE, Ohio (AP) -- Death penalty opponents called on the state to halt executions after prison staff struggled to find suitable veins on a condemned man's arm to deliver the lethal chemicals.

The execution team stuck Christopher Newton at least 10 times with needles Thursday to insert the shunts where the chemicals are injected.

He died at 11:53 a.m., nearly two hours after the scheduled start of his execution at the Southern Ohio Correctional Facility. The process typically takes about 20 minutes.

"What is clear from today's botched execution is that the state doesn't know how to execute people without torturing them to death," American Civil Liberties Union of Ohio attorney Carrie Davis said Thursday.

"Having one botched execution is too many; that Ohio has now had two botched executions in as many years is intolerable."

Officials said the delay was due to Newton's size -- he weighed 265 pounds. In May 2006, the execution of Joseph Lewis Clark was delayed about 90 minutes because the team could not find a suitable vein. He was a longtime intravenous drug user.

A group of Ohio inmates is suing over the state's injection method, saying it is unconstitutionally cruel, and Thursday's delay helps show that the state is unable to smoothly complete executions, said Greg Meyers, chief counsel for the Public Defender's Office.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/05/25/ohio.execution.ap/index.html


Two things I want to know; why don't they just switch to either a firing squad or hanging for fat guys who were long-time IV drug users, and

did they swab the injection site with alcohol first? ;)

[chulbert]

There is some risk of decapitation when hanging overweight individuals, which could be considered cruel and unusual in the United States.

[MelBrooksfan]

Two things I want to know; why don't they just switch to either a firing squad or hanging for fat guys who were long-time IV drug users, and

Lethal injection's the only current legal form of capital punishment in Ohio. Also, there's that thing about fat guys having their heads yanked clean off by hangings.



did they swab the injection site with alcohol first? ;)

Evidently, that's more to protect the folks performing the execution than the condemned.

[hgc]

Two things I want to know; why don't they just switch to either a firing squad or hanging for fat guys who were long-time IV drug users,


I'm opposed to judicial homocide in general, but as long as they're doing it, why not firing squad for everyone? Is there a more reliable way to kill people quickly and painlessly.

Has anyone been done in that way in the U.S. since Gary Gilmore?

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

It would seem to me that using a firearm would be fairly humane way to execute the comdemned, and would require little expertise to administer. Is there any reason why executions are not usually carried out this way in the United States? Is it the trauma factor for the executioner?

[HarryKeogh]

did they swab the injection site with alcohol first? ;)

Alcohol causes blood vessels to rise to the surface – facilitating the insertion of the needle. Obviously, not enough in this guy's case.

Also, there is a slight chance of the prisoner’s fate being delayed or overturned right up to the final moment, placing importance on the sterility of the procedure.

[Tailgater]

If a nurse not finding a vein is torture, I'm suing every hospital I've ever been too. Hell, I'm suing that cruel nurse that tortured my 1 year old a few months ago when they had trouble drawing blood. Not to mention the fact the guy stuck himself thousands of times before. Unreal.

[ponderingturtle]

If a nurse not finding a vein is torture, I'm suing every hospital I've ever been too. Hell, I'm suing that cruel nurse that tortured my 1 year old a few months ago when they had trouble drawing blood. Not to mention the fact the guy stuck himself thousands of times before. Unreal.

This is what I thought. I guess when ever anyone has trouble finding a vein it is torture and they should be charged with such. This will do wonderful things to our health care system.

[Steve]

From the article (bolding mine):

"What is clear from today's botched execution is that the state doesn't know how to execute people without torturing them to death," American Civil Liberties Union of Ohio attorney Carrie Davis said Thursday.

I suggest that Carrie Davis is guilty of a little exaggeration.
For unknown reasons medical staff always seem to find it difficult to find a vein on me to start an IV (I have never used IV street drugs). It is not uncommon, even for a routine procedure such as a colonoscopy, for the nurses to make multiple attempts before they find a suitable vein. When my wife was first nursing and needed to be certified to start IV's I used to let her practice on me - we figured that if she could routinely start one on me then the routine ones at work would be a breeze. Being poked with a needle a few times is not a big deal. I did not feel that I was being "tortured to death" and I definitely did not die from these attempts.

[timhau]

There is some risk of decapitation when hanging overweight individuals, which could be considered cruel and unusual in the United States.

Unusual, yes, but how is it cruel?

[Beerina]

There is some risk of decapitation when hanging overweight individuals, which could be considered cruel and unusual in the United States.

Quite frankly, if I were going to be hung, I'd prefer that my head be yanked off. Better than dangling there for 30 to 60 seconds dying if your neck doesn't snap.

Up until recently I thought there were 6 methods in use in the US:


Lethal injection
Hanging
Firing squad (5 bullets, 6 guns?)
Gas chamber
Electric chair
Maybe I'm confusing it with 6 ways to reach first base

Hit
Walk
Error
Fielder's choice infield fly rule
And the often forgotten dropped 3rd strike
I guess that's only five here, too. I know I'm missing at least one in one of these two lists. Wait! Hit by pitch!

[Darth Rotor]

"What is clear from today's botched execution is that the state doesn't know how to execute people without torturing them to death," American Civil Liberties Union of Ohio attorney Carrie Davis said Thursday.

"Having one botched execution is too many; that Ohio has now had two botched executions in as many years is intolerable."
1. I find this use of the word "torture" careless, having had military corpsmen and medics give me multiple jabs, frequently, when trying, and missing, veins during blood samples for the annual AIDS tests. A liar working for the ACLU, too bad, it does no credit to the ACLU to have such tripe spoken in their name.

2. "Intolerable." More hyperbole. Zero defects from the ACLU?

Granted, this is a mess, but intolerable?

Intolerable would be the capital crimes those felons committed to get the death penalty in the first place. That fits "intolerable."

DR

[EvilSmurf]

Quite frankly, if I were going to be hung, I'd prefer that my head be yanked off. Better than dangling there for 30 to 60 seconds dying if your neck doesn't snap.

Up until recently I thought there were 6 methods in use in the US:


Lethal injection
Hanging
Firing squad (5 bullets, 6 guns?)
Gas chamber
Electric chair
Maybe I'm confusing it with 6 ways to reach first base

Hit
Walk
Error
Fielder's choice infield fly rule
And the often forgotten dropped 3rd strike
I guess that's only five here, too. I know I'm missing at least one in one of these two lists. Wait! Hit by pitch!



Hmm...what about being a Pinch Runner?

[BPSCG]

Maybe I'm confusing it with 6 ways to reach first base
Hit
Walk
Error
Fielder's choice infield fly rule
And the often forgotten dropped 3rd strike
I guess that's only five here, too. I know I'm missing at least one in one of these two lists. Wait! Hit by pitch!

Balk?
Force play?
Tell her she looks really pretty?

[shecky]

I always thought guillotine would be a rather humane way to go. Seems better to have the head sliced off than yanked off, to me, at least.

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

1. I find this use of the word "torture" careless, having had military corpsmen and medics give me multiple jabs, frequently, when trying, and missing, veins during blood samples for the annual AIDS tests. A liar working for the ACLU, too bad, it does no credit to the ACLU to have such tripe spoken in their name.

Heh, I was just about to say, anyone who thinks being jabbed with a needle 10 times is cruel and unusual punishment has probably not spent much time in the military.

Which reminds me: I have to get another anthrax shot next week. Youch.

[Darth Rotor]

Heh, I was just about to say, anyone who thinks being jabbed with a needle 10 times is cruel and unusual punishment has probably not spent much time in the military.

Which reminds me: I have to get another anthrax shot next week. Youch.

I am so glad to be done with them, I got sick each time I had a booster. I almost went and got one last October, just to remenisce, but no, bad idea. :p

DR

[BPSCG]

How quickly we forget. Everyone remember Terri Schiavo? Court order allowed her husband to have her starved to death? Nobody claimed it was cruel and unusual; in fact, there were doctors claiming that starving to death wasn't painful.

Therefore, "I sentence you to be starved until you are dead." Who could have a problem with that?

[Hutch]

I always thought guillotine would be a rather humane way to go. Seems better to have the head sliced off than yanked off, to me, at least.

I agree, it's quick, efficient, and you can process what, 10-20 prisoners an hour with no problem...;)

Unfortunately,the more liberal folks don't want anybody put to death, and having your head chopped off is about as dead as you get...and the conservatives would moan that it was a French Invention and that we shouldn't be borrowing anything from the Frogs...

..Unless they can contract with Halliburtion to produce state of the art guillotines for $350,000 apiece...:cool:

[TragicMonkey]

How quickly we forget. Everyone remember Terri Schiavo? Court order allowed her husband to have her starved to death? Nobody claimed it was cruel and unusual; in fact, there were doctors claiming that starving to death wasn't painful.

Therefore, "I sentence you to be starved until you are dead." Who could have a problem with that?

If one doesn't have the awareness of pain, does the pain exist?

[fuelair]

Unusual, yes, but how is it cruel?
Good question.

[fishbob]

How quickly we forget. Everyone remember Terri Schiavo? Court order allowed her husband to have her starved to death? Nobody claimed it was cruel and unusual; in fact, there were doctors claiming that starving to death wasn't painful.

Therefore, "I sentence you to be starved until you are dead." Who could have a problem with that?

How quickly you forget. The poor woman had died long before, but modern medicine had kept her corpse animated.

[aerosolben]

Maybe I'm confusing it with 6 ways to reach first base

Hit
Walk
Error
Fielder's choice infield fly rule
And the often forgotten dropped 3rd strike
I guess that's only five here, too. I know I'm missing at least one in one of these two lists. Wait! Hit by pitch!

The missing one is catcher interference.

Hmm...what about being a Pinch Runner?
Pinch runner does not 'reach' 1st base, as such.


Balk?
Doesn't affect batter.
Force play?
That'd be an out.
Tell her she looks really pretty?
Fielder's choice.

[Darth Rotor]

How quickly you forget. The poor woman had died long before, but modern medicine had kept her corpse animated.
Need to pay for the five bedroom house and the BMW, doncha know.

DR

[UserGoogol]

How quickly we forget. Everyone remember Terri Schiavo? Court order allowed her husband to have her starved to death? Nobody claimed it was cruel and unusual; in fact, there were doctors claiming that starving to death wasn't painful.

Therefore, "I sentence you to be starved until you are dead." Who could have a problem with that?

If they could inflict massive brain damage comparable to that of Terry Schiavo in a painless way, then yes, that would work. (Ignoring that I think the death penalty itself is wrong, but that's a separate issue.) Of course, injecting the brain-damage stuff and then just leaving the body to die is a waste of time, so throwing some poison after damaging the brain is a more efficient way of doing things. Which is pretty much how lethal injections work anyway.

[Beerina]

Hmm...what about being a Pinch Runner?

The guy is already on base, so it doesn't count in that sense.

Balk?

Lets runner go to the next base, but batter does not get to go to first.

Force play?

I don't know if this is distinguishible from a hit. I also don't know if the fielder's choice infield fly rule (where the infielder chooses to drop the ball then throw the first base guy out at second, but they can't also throw out the guy at first into a double play -- that's the infield fly rule.)

So I'll drop that one too, leaving us now with five.

Tell her she looks really pretty?

That would involve getting to a different "third base" or "home".


The missing one is catcher interference.

Ya!

So, the list is now:

Hit
Walk
Error (a hit or foul that should have made an out but a defender goofs)
Catcher interference
Hit by pitch
And the often forgotten dropped 3rd strike

[hgc]

How quickly we forget. Everyone remember Terri Schiavo? Court order allowed her husband to have her starved to death? Nobody claimed it was cruel and unusual; in fact, there were doctors claiming that starving to death wasn't painful.

Therefore, "I sentence you to be starved until you are dead." Who could have a problem with that?


For a person without a functioning brain, it's not painful. (I don't mean non-functioning brain a la Paris Hilton; I mean really no brain, as in Terry Schiavo.)

[Mephisto]

I'm opposed to judicial homocide in general,

Judicial homocide? What is that . . . death by same-sex relations with a lawyer? ;)

[Mephisto]

It is not uncommon, even for a routine procedure such as a colonoscopy, for the nurses to make multiple attempts before they find a suitable vein.

Heheh, if we're talking colonoscopy, it's not the IV injection I'd be worried about. ;)

[Mephisto]

There is some risk of decapitation when hanging overweight individuals, which could be considered cruel and unusual in the United States.

I understand completely (it could be traumatic to the witnesses), but if the aim is to kill the guy what difference would it make? He wouldn't feel it for long.

[BPSCG]

Lets runner go to the next base, but batter does not get to go to first.Can there be a balk if there's no runner on base?

I don't know if this is distinguishible from a hit. I also don't know if the fielder's choice infield fly rule (where the infielder chooses to drop the ball then throw the first base guy out at second, but they can't also throw out the guy at first into a double play -- that's the infield fly rule.)
I don't think you have the infield fly rule right. When the ump calls infield fly, it means the batter is automatically and immediately out, and the runners can advance at their discretion. The purpose is to avoid "forcing" a DP by allowing the ball to drop and then throwing to second to get the lead runner. The lead runner would normally not try to advance on a short fly ball for fear of being doubled off the bag when the infielder caught it on the fly; without the infield fly rule, the infielder could double up the guy on first whether he tried to advance or not, by either letting the ball drop (if the runner was still standing on first) or catching it on the fly and throwing to first (if the runner had tried to advance).

Dunno how a fielder's choice and force play are counted for computing BA. They're clearly not hits, but the batter isn't out; I suspect they're not counted as an at-bat for BA calculation purposes.


Error (a hit or foul that should have made an out but a defender goofs)
Catcher interference
Hit by pitch
And the often forgotten dropped 3rd strikeBatter doesn't go to first on a foul.

[chulbert]

Unusual, yes, but how is it cruel?

I'm not sure how or why it's absolutely cruel, though I could speculate. Ultimately, however, I think current cultural standards in the United States generally consider death by decapitation an inhumane implementation of capital punishment.

Not the mention the mess an accidental decapitation would create. Egad.

[MilwaukeeMike]

I'm opposed to judicial homocide in general, but as long as they're doing it, why not firing squad for everyone? Is there a more reliable way to kill people quickly and painlessly.

Has anyone been done in that way in the U.S. since Gary Gilmore?

Far more torturous too. You could tease the inmates with a few blank rounds before the real one.

[strathmeyer]

I always find ACLU stances like this confusing, since it is because of the ACLU that we can't practice much more humane methods of execution, such as asking the inmate to turn around and shooting him in the back of the head with a revolver. It's even more odd because it's pretty much the only ACLU stance that I disagree with, and I know we live in an ACLU hating world.

[ponderingturtle]

I always find ACLU stances like this confusing, since it is because of the ACLU that we can't practice much more humane methods of execution, such as asking the inmate to turn around and shooting him in the back of the head with a revolver. It's even more odd because it's pretty much the only ACLU stance that I disagree with, and I know we live in an ACLU hating world.

You have to understand that the reason why the methods of execution are out of favor has as much to do with the appearance of the method as it does with effects the dieing will feel.

So it is to create the most peaceful scene for the observers.

[hgc]

I always find ACLU stances like this confusing, since it is because of the ACLU that we can't practice much more humane methods of execution, such as asking the inmate to turn around and shooting him in the back of the head with a revolver. It's even more odd because it's pretty much the only ACLU stance that I disagree with, and I know we live in an ACLU hating world.


Not that I disbelieve it outright, but do you have anything to back up the claim that the ACLU is responsible for evolving methods of execution? (Specifically away from hanging and firing squad)

Otherwise, I'll have to mark it down to another mindless anti-ACLU rant.

[aerosolben]

So I'll drop that one too, leaving us now with five.
While "infield fly" is not one of the options (as BPSCG said, the batter is always out), 'fielder's choice' is scored separately, and thus a legitimate 7th bullet.

Dunno how a fielder's choice and force play are counted for computing BA. They're clearly not hits, but the batter isn't out; I suspect they're not counted as an at-bat for BA calculation purposes.
Fielder's choice is NOT recorded as a hit, but the batter still gets the at-bat -essentially, the implication is he would have been out if the fielder had thrown it to first.

I have no idea how you're intended to use the term 'force play' in this context. Either it's a force play at first (so the batter is out), or it's a force play elsewhere, which means it's either a hit or fielder's choice. Either way, it doesn't have it's own category and is not scored separately.

The seven ways to reach first:

Hit
Walk
Hit by pitch
Error
Fielder's choice
Dropped 3rd strike
Catcher interference

[Steve]

Just wanted to say that I am thoroughly enjoying the intertwining of death and baseball in this thread.

[strathmeyer]

Not that I disbelieve it outright, but do you have anything to back up the claim that the ACLU is responsible for evolving methods of execution? (Specifically away from hanging and firing squad)

Otherwise, I'll have to mark it down to another mindless anti-ACLU rant.

Didn't you notice that they haven't exactly been promoting safe execution practices? Haven't come up with a more reasonable alternative? (Obviously, these aren't their responsibility in the current situation, but their actions reveal a greater mindset.)

[BPSCG]

Just wanted to say that I am thoroughly enjoying the intertwining of death and baseball in this thread.Then you should particularly enjoy How Life Imitates the World Series (http://www.amazon.com/Imitates-World-Penguin-sports-library/dp/0140064699/ref=sr_1_3/002-8253251-1088059?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180720721&sr=8-3), by Thomas Boswell, perhaps the best baseball writer around. He probably loves baseball more than the average mother loves her own children - and it shows.

[BPSCG]

Funny, my vet can put a cat down in a matter of seconds, and it appears to be as relaxing and painless a death as any suffering animal could desire. So why is it allegedly so difficult to do with humans?

[Kilgore Trout]

Cats aren't nearly as often intravenous drug users? Just a guess.

Also...

A batter may also be awarded first base if a fair ball touches an umpire or a runner on fair territory before touching a fielder. Rule 6.08 (d).

(The runner may or may not be out, however, based upon various things, like interference.)

[hgc]

Didn't you notice that they haven't exactly been promoting safe execution practices? Haven't come up with a more reasonable alternative? (Obviously, these aren't their responsibility in the current situation, but their actions reveal a greater mindset.)


I didn't know offhand, so I googled "aclu execution methods" and followed the first link (http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/organizations/ncadp/news.jsp?key=2909&t=). Wasn't hard at all.

What was your point about the ACLU again?

Montana's execution method may use too little of a pain-relieving barbiturate and is not necessarily conducted by a doctor, the Montana American Civil Liberties said Friday.

...

[aerosolben]

A batter may also be awarded first base if a fair ball touches an umpire or a runner on fair territory before touching a fielder. Rule 6.08 (d).
Good one, though it's "before touching a fielder or passing a fielder other than the pitcher" - otherwise it's a hit.

I don't know how these are scored, though.

[Kerberos]

1. I find this use of the word "torture" careless, having had military corpsmen and medics give me multiple jabs, frequently, when trying, and missing, veins during blood samples for the annual AIDS tests. A liar working for the ACLU, too bad, it does no credit to the ACLU to have such tripe spoken in their name.
And was the purpose of any of those jabs to kill you? If not I'd say it's not really comparable. If you aren't obsessed with making the ACLU look bad, it's much more reasonable to assume the "torture" was refering to the dragging out of the execution, not the mildly unpleasent jabs.

[Mephisto]

And was the purpose of any of those jabs to kill you? If not I'd say it's not really comparable.

Well, to be fair, and in Darth Rotor's defense, the injections were likely given by an enlisted man, and considering that he was an officer at the time . . . ;)

[Art Vandelay]

The seven ways to reach first:

Hit
Walk
Hit by pitch
Error
Fielder's choice
Dropped 3rd strike
Catcher interference

These seem like largely meaningless distinctions to me. Walk and hit by pitch, and arguably even catcher interference, should be considered the same basic category, IMO. Dropped 3rd strike should be considered an error, and fielder's choice should be considered a hit.

[BPSCG]

Walk and hit by pitch, and arguably even catcher interference, should be considered the same basic category, IMO.
Think so? Intentionally walking a batter is perfectly legal, and often a sound tactic. Intentionally hitting him with a pitch can get the pitcher thrown out of the game.

[timhau]

I'm not sure how or why it's absolutely cruel, though I could speculate. Ultimately, however, I think current cultural standards in the United States generally consider death by decapitation an inhumane implementation of capital punishment.

Not the mention the mess an accidental decapitation would create. Egad.

So... it's unusual, and cruel to sanitation workers?

If I had to choose a method for my execution, decapitation would be very close to the top. Certainly above electric chair, for example.

[aerosolben]

These seem like largely meaningless distinctions to me. Walk and hit by pitch, and arguably even catcher interference, should be considered the same basic category, IMO. Dropped 3rd strike should be considered an error, and fielder's choice should be considered a hit.
The reason they are distinguished in the fashion I used is because these are all currently scored distinctly. This is not a subjective argument about what the rules of baseball should be, this is an enumeration of what they actually are. A dropped third strike is not an error, and fielder's choice is not a hit.

[WildCat]

Maybe I'm confusing it with 6 ways to reach first base


Hit
Walk
Error
Fielder's choice infield fly rule
And the often forgotten dropped 3rd strike
I guess that's only five here, too. I know I'm missing at least one in one of these two lists. Wait! Hit by pitch!

There's one more way - catcher's interference. Though I guess this could be covered by error, since the cather will be charged with one in this case.

eta: oops, already covered. Should read the whole thread first...

[Beerina]

Can there be a balk if there's no runner on base?

I don't believe so. A balk is a feint by the pitcher to mislead the runner, to get the runner to take a few more steps towards the next base (which would be safe to do if the pitcher were actually in the process of beginning a pitch.) But if the pitcher then tries to throw him out, it becomes too easy.


I don't think you have the infield fly rule right. When the ump calls infield fly, it means the batter is automatically and immediately out, and the runners can advance at their discretion. The purpose is to avoid "forcing" a DP by allowing the ball to drop and then throwing to second to get the lead runner. The lead runner would normally not try to advance on a short fly ball for fear of being doubled off the bag when the infielder caught it on the fly; without the infield fly rule, the infielder could double up the guy on first whether he tried to advance or not, by either letting the ball drop (if the runner was still standing on first) or catching it on the fly and throwing to first (if the runner had tried to advance).

Well, the purpose of the rule is to prevent an easy double play. The runner on first cannot go to second on an infield pop-up, because the defender will catch the ball and throw him out at first. So he has to hang back at first.

But at that point, the defender could deliberatly drop the ball, then throw to second, who then throws to first, a double play!

But, the rule allows the defender to deliberately drop the ball and throw the guy out at second. They cannot continue to first for a double play. They might do this, typically, if the runner at first is a faster runner than the guy making the popup.

Batter doesn't go to first on a foul.

What about these situations:


Defender touches ball as it comes down in foul territory, and it lands in foul territory.
Defender touches ball as it comes down in foul territory, and it bounces off him and lands in fair territory.


Both cases are before it touches the ground for the first time. I presume, though fouls count as strikes for the first two strikes, that this would not count as a "dropped 3rd strike", which must be a "clean" strike dropped by the catcher.

[Kilgore Trout]

Can there be a balk if there's no runner on base?
Sort of, though it's called a "quick pitch" and the result is a ball, unless the batter gets on base otherwise. (As opposed to trying to fool a base runner into thinking it's a pitch, the pitcher tries to fool or rush the batter.)

Well, the purpose of the rule is to prevent an easy double play. The runner on first cannot go to second on an infield pop-up, because the defender will catch the ball and throw him out at first. So he has to hang back at first.

But at that point, the defender could deliberatly drop the ball, then throw to second, who then throws to first, a double play!

But, the rule allows the defender to deliberately drop the ball and throw the guy out at second. They cannot continue to first for a double play. They might do this, typically, if the runner at first is a faster runner than the guy making the popup.

To clarify a little.. It's not for a single runner on first base, but a runner on first and second, or first, second, and third. It has to be two or more forced runners (that are kept on base because of the fly) that could be thrown out if the ball is dropped. With just one (forced) runner, there is no infield fly and anything goes, however I doubt you'd see anyone intentionally drop that particular fly ball. [Baseball theories withheld; I feel enough guilt for this derail.]


What about these situations:


Defender touches ball as it comes down in foul territory, and it lands in foul territory.
Defender touches ball as it comes down in foul territory, and it bounces off him and lands in fair territory.


Both cases are before it touches the ground for the first time. I presume, though fouls count as strikes for the first two strikes, that this would not count as a "dropped 3rd strike", which must be a "clean" strike dropped by the catcher.

Foul balls are never third strikes, right. Foul-tips are third strikes, but by definition, a foul-tip is caught and not dropped.

Also, I believe a fly is ruled foul/fair when it is touched by the player, relative to the field. Where it lands (after touching a player) doesn't matter. For example, a foul ball that hits a player and lands fair, is foul. A fair ball that hits a player and lands foul, is fair.

[Tailgater]

And was the purpose of any of those jabs to kill you? If not I'd say it's not really comparable. If you aren't obsessed with making the ACLU look bad, it's much more reasonable to assume the "torture" was refering to the dragging out of the execution, not the mildly unpleasent jabs.

I agree. They should have injected him 5 minutes after sentencing.;)

[Art Vandelay]

The reason they are distinguished in the fashion I used is because these are all currently scored distinctly. This is not a subjective argument about what the rules of baseball should be, this is an enumeration of what they actually are. A dropped third strike is not an error, and fielder's choice is not a hit.At the risk of sounding pedantic, is this not an issue of the rules of baseball statistic keeping, rather than the rules of baseball itself? A batter can acquire first base through his own ability (hit), his opponents' incompetence (error/dropped strike), or by being awarded it (four balls, hit with a pitch, catcher interference). Any further subdivision is a subject matter for baseball statisticians, not baseball players, and has no effect on the game. It's like saying that in the NFL, a thrid down and fourth down conversion are different ways of getting a first down. But they both get you the exact same first down. What if I were to further subdivide the category of "hit" into "ground ball" and "home run"? Those are scored differently, too. And there's more of a pratical difference between the two and a hit and fielder's choice.

[aerosolben]

At the risk of sounding pedantic, is this not an issue of the rules of baseball statistic keeping, rather than the rules of baseball itself?
Yes. Is there something wrong with that?

A batter can acquire first base through his own ability (hit), his opponents' incompetence (error/dropped strike), or by being awarded it (four balls, hit with a pitch, catcher interference). Any further subdivision is a subject matter for baseball statisticians, not baseball players, and has no effect on the game.
You can simplify even further. The batter goes to first in danger or not in danger of being out - that's the only distinction that affects the game in play. And once the game is done, the only variable that has any effect is who won.

However, we track additional stats because they give more insight into the game, and (theoretically) have more predictive value. And because it's entertaining.

It's like saying that in the NFL, a thrid down and fourth down conversion are different ways of getting a first down. But they both get you the exact same first down.
And statistics are tracked separately for both.

What if I were to further subdivide the category of "hit" into "ground ball" and "home run"? Those are scored differently, too. And there's more of a pratical difference between the two and a hit and fielder's choice.
Except that fielder's choice is NOT a hit, and a home run is. Baseball record-keeping has rules, too.

[Kilgore Trout]

Scoring is also very important because of fans that keep their own scorecards. Being popular long before the age of ESPN, fans enjoyed being able to practically recreate a game by way of their scorecards.

[BPSCG]

But, the rule allows the defender to deliberately drop the ball and throw the guy out at second. No. When the ump calls an infield fly, the batter is immediately out (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infield_fly).

And as Kilgore Trout pointed out, it doesn't apply with only a runner on first. There has to be the possibility of a force play at third.

[AgeGap]

...and the conservatives would moan that it was a French Invention and that we shouldn't be borrowing anything from the Frogs...
They could moan it is a French invention but wikipedia says otherwise. Oh wikipedia how mighty thou art.