Telling the Truth in Iraq

[Tony]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/17/nyt.friedman/index.html ..full article

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- I got a tour the other day of Baghdad's rebuilt airport, which is now quite beautiful, but still hasn't opened out of security concerns. Our tour guides even took us through passport control to show off their new computers that will check for incoming terrorists. As they showed us around, a question occurred to me that I posed to them: "What happens if someone gets off a plane with an Israeli passport?" After all, Iraq under Saddam Hussein not only didn't have diplomatic relations with Israel, it considered itself at war with Israel.

All of the officials present shrugged their shoulders and agreed that they hadn't thought about it -- and that's one of the most interesting things about Iraq today. It is the only Arab country where the Arab-Israeli conflict is not the first topic of conversation with intellectuals and media elites. Make no mistake, the average Iraqi dislikes Israel and sympathizes with the Palestinian cause as much as any Saudi or Egyptian. This is an Arab country -- never forget that.



I think its good to hear that there is optimism in Iraq, hopefully it wont devolve into an Islamic dictatorship. Time will tell.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Tony

I think its good to hear that there is optimism in Iraq, hopefully it wont devolve into an Islamic dictatorship. Time will tell. I'm curious what the title has to do with the quote you posted.

Further, I'm curious why you describe this as optimistic. It seems to me that the Iraqis are at best indifferent to Isreal, primarily because they've got bigger, closer to home, problems to deal with.

[Tony]

Did you read the article?

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Tony
Did you read the article? Nope, just that which you deemed important enough to post.

edited to add: Which gives the title of the thread, but doesn't answer the other question I asked.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Nope, just that which you deemed important enough to post.

Please read it.

The only reason I posted this quote was because it was the opening of the article (thats how I always do it).

[Mr Manifesto]

"That's why there is a dramatic gulf now between Iraqis and a lot of other Arabs. Young people here want to move on. In 10 years, this will be a very different place. If I can be a part of it, it will be like Hong Kong or Korea -- but with an Iraqi face."

Are these the same young people who keep blowing up the oil pipelines and have started to move on to the water pipelines?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


Are these the same young people who keep blowing up the oil pipelines and have started to move on to the water pipelines?


No

[Malachi151]

I have alwsy contended that the threat of Iraq going into an Islamic Fundamentlaist state is very small. I think its a case of setting low goals by the administration. There is no real threat of it, so they say that it is a good possibilty, then when it does not happen they can say they were successful.

[Mr Manifesto]

Moqtada Sadr is one 30 year old who isn't pleased with the American prescence. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4453-2003Aug16.html)

[Mr Manifesto]

US hasn't grasped dept of resistance in Iraq (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/15/1060936052309.html)

[Crossbow]

Tony:

Do you think the war was justified?

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by Crossbow
Tony:

Do you think the war was justified?

Justified? No. Justifiable? Yes.

War with Iraq COULD have been justified, but it was not, and still is not.

[Jon_in_london]

The truth is that a cameraman was shot dead by US troops today. They thought his camera was an RPG.

The truth is that US troops have no idea of how to keep order without shooting first and asking questions later.

The truth is the US is becoming more and more hated by ordinary Iraqis with each passing day, with each passing death.

The truth is that the US is as completely unable to prevent major acts of sabotage as it is unable to prevent its finest young men coming home in plastic bags.

The truth is that the US is out of its depth and is struggling to keep its head above water.

Its just a matter of time before Powell comes crying to the UN, asking for a bail out.

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by Tony


Please read it.

The only reason I posted this quote was because it was the opening of the article (thats how I always do it).


they can't read it, because it doesnt follow their politics.

regardless of what is actually happening, they will not acknowledge it because they're afraid of offending their political clique.

just look at crossbow's reply......it's a really sad situation.

it's part of the reason reading and posting here has become a waste of time for me.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser

they can't read it, because it doesnt follow their politics.Really? At what are my politics, exactly?
it's part of the reason reading and posting here has become a waste of time for me. And yet, here you are.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser



they can't read it, because it doesnt follow their politics.

regardless of what is actually happening, they will not acknowledge it because they're afraid of offending their political clique.

just look at crossbow's reply......it's a really sad situation.

it's part of the reason reading and posting here has become a waste of time for me.




In the first place, I did read the article.

In the second place, I have no political clique to offend.

In the third place, I was simply asking Tony for clarification on an issue he raised.

In the fourth place, if you want to leave then do so.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser




it's part of the reason reading and posting here has become a waste of time for me.




What a sad little troll.......

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser

it's part of the reason reading and posting here has become a waste of time for me.


Oooh! Does that mean you're leaving?

http://216.40.249.192/s/contrib/chapel/bigfrogs/biglaugh.gif

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser



they can't read it, because it doesnt follow their politics.

regardless of what is actually happening, they will not acknowledge it because they're afraid of offending their political clique.

just look at crossbow's reply......it's a really sad situation.

it's part of the reason reading and posting here has become a waste of time for me.




Oh, spare us NWT. You are one of the most politcally biased posters on this board.

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by KelvinG


Oh, spare us NWT. You are one of the most politcally biased posters on this board.


you wish it was that easy, as if you arent biased and predictable.

no Im not leaving, I just find most of you predictable and boring (like most bulletin board systems these days), so Im not here that much anymore....doesnt mean Im gone or Im sad and "burdened" by the elite goons here. I never said I was leaving...but yet again...thats just another example of how dumb you are.....reading and comprehension skills are gutter level....LDs abound.

You're mostly just lame, its that simple.

now go play with your smileys and conspiracies. Maybe one day they'll come closer to helping you deal with reality.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser



you wish it was that easy, as if you arent biased and predictable.

no Im not leaving, I just find most of you predictable and boring (like most bulletin board systems these days), so Im not here that much anymore....doesnt mean Im gone or Im sad and "burdened" by the elite goons here. I never said I was leaving...but yet again...thats just another example of how dumb you are.....reading and comprehension skills are gutter level....LDs abound.

You're mostly just lame, its that simple.

now go play with your smileys and conspiracies. Maybe one day they'll come closer to helping you deal with reality.

Lol.... what a dufus.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser



you wish it was that easy, as if you arent biased and predictable.

no Im not leaving, I just find most of you predictable and boring (like most bulletin board systems these days), so Im not here that much anymore....doesnt mean Im gone or Im sad and "burdened" by the elite goons here. I never said I was leaving...but yet again...thats just another example of how dumb you are.....reading and comprehension skills are gutter level....LDs abound.

You're mostly just lame, its that simple.

now go play with your smileys and conspiracies. Maybe one day they'll come closer to helping you deal with reality.

Let this be a lesson to all: Don't post while drunk.

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by KelvinG


Let this be a lesson to all: Don't post while drunk.


don't be so quick to reveal your personal problems by projecting them onto others.

[KelvinG]

But, back to the topic of this thread, I read the article Tony posted and all I can say is that if the author's observations are true, then that is mostly a good thing.
I don't think you'll find anyone, no matter where they stand on the issue of the war that will have a problem with citizens in Iraq enjoying more freedom and less repression. (Of course, this is but one author's observations. It is by no means the end all be all).

However, that doesn't mean that I'm naive enough to read one such article and blindly say "Gosh, George Bush was right all along." I'm not buying that. I don't believe the war was ever about helping the people in Iraq. It's now being showcased as the main reason because the US government has been trying to save face since no WMD have been found.

As has been said time and time again, the end doesn't justify the means.

If it did, search warrants wouldn't be necessary to root through the house of a suspected drug dealer. The police would just say in court "Well, sure we didn't have a search warrant, but we found drugs so its all OK."

This was an illegal war waged by a dishonest administration with suspect motives.
Just my humble opinion.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser



don't be so quick to reveal your personal problems by projecting them onto others.

Like this for example?

[Mr Manifesto]

Lay off him, C-bow. It took him 3 months to photoshop that.

[Crossbow]

Well that would explain why he has posted to at least three different threads so far!