The ultimate source of energy

[3point14]

During my incredibly boring journey to work this morning (which I'm brightening up by reading 'The Planets' by Sobel which is perfect reading when you're not quite 100% awake) I realised the following (which is probably patently obvious to everyone who'se ever thought about it but me)


All energy is a prouct of gravity.


Not the most stunning revelation, I'm sure, but I figured if I put it up here, I'd soon find out if I were wrong.

[yairhol]

All energy is a prouct of gravity.

I don't think so. electricity does not follow the rules of gravity. electrons and protons attract each other not because of gravity but because of the electrical forces between them. Where there is force there is energy. Also the atom force (strong force) between the nucleus of an atom and its surrounding particles is also not gravity associated.

Regards,
Yair

[3point14]

I don't think so. electricity does not follow the rules of gravity. electrons and protons attract each other not because of gravity but because of the electrical forces between them. Where there is force there is energy. Also the atom force (strong force) between the nucleus of an atom and its surrounding particles is also not gravity associated.

Regards,
Yair

Trying to think my way through something I'm not familiar with.

Are those bonds not created in the heart of a star by being compressed by gravitational forces? Or have I got it arse about face again?

[cloudshipsrule]

I don't think electromagnetic forces stem from the gravity either.

[Roboramma]

Not sure I get it. There has always been the same amount of energy in the universe (at least since the big bang). That's obvious from the law of conservation of energy.

Are you saying (maybe) that all forms of energy that aren't gravatational were converted from gravitation? I guess that works for radioactivity - the energy that was stored in heavy atoms being there because of the gravity of stars...

What about kinetic energy, and by association, heat energy? The early universe was very hot, after all. How is that related to gravitation?

Or maybe your ideas are deeper than I'm capable of following at the moment. I await the arrival of those more educated than myself.

[Cuddles]

All energy is a prouct of gravity.

Two points. Firstly, there are four fundamental forces - strong, weak, electromagnetic and gravity. These are not related to each other at the energy levels of this time (and while they merge into each other at higher lenergy levels, it could not be described as being "gravity", just a combination of forces). Secondly, forces are not energy. As Roborama says, energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted from one form to another (including mass as a form of energy and within the constraints of the uncertainty principles). Energy can be stored in a gravitational field (or any other force field), but the field is not the source of the energy.

Edit : Incidentally, while I have never heard of any theory that says gravity is the source of any other force, there is at least one theory that says gravity is simply a consequence of the electromagnetic force.

[3point14]

Not sure I get it. There has always been the same amount of energy in the universe (at least since the big bang). That's obvious from the law of conservation of energy.

Are you saying (maybe) that all forms of energy that aren't gravatational were converted from gravitation? I guess that works for radioactivity - the energy that was stored in heavy atoms being there because of the gravity of stars...

Yeah, that's kind of where I was headed.


What about kinetic energy, and by association, heat energy? The early universe was very hot, after all. How is that related to gravitation?


Really not sure, I was hoping that someone else might help me out with that :)


Or maybe your ideas are deeper than I'm capable of following at the moment.

Very unlikely I'm afraid. Quite the reverse is far more probable.


I await the arrival of those more educated than myself.

As do I, but I've a feeling they might shoot me down in a horrible burning mess.

[Thabiguy]

All energy is a prouct of gravity.

Okay, here are my 2 cents on the subject. And for the sake of explanation, I will try to keep it simple and easily visualized, so I hope experts will excuse that.

The question, I believe, can be rephrased as, "Does all energy ultimately come from gravitational potential energy, liberated as things fall towards each other?"

I think there are two aspects of this question:

1. Does energy that does come from gravitational potential energy ultimately come from gravitational potential energy?

I believe the answer is no. When things fall together, they can liberate gravitational potential energy - you can easily verify that by picking up a hammer from the floor and dropping it on your toe. But in this hammer case, the gravitational field just acts as a temporary storage of energy, not its origin. Originally, there was no extra energy in the hammer as it lay on the floor. The energy that got liberated actually came from your muscles and got stored in the hammer as you lifted it off the floor.

In the general case of the universe, when things fall together and they liberate energy, we can ask: was the energy always there to begin with? And the answer is no; things weren't always far away to be able to fall together. Something pulled them apart, thus storing the energy in the gravitational field that can now be liberated as they fall back together. The energy that is liberated as, for example, interstellar clouds of hydrogen condense and warm up, ultimately comes from the Big Bang, not gravity.

2. Even if gravity isn't the ultimate source of energy, isn't it the universal common source of energy? In other words, has all energy that we encounter today been stored in the fom of gravitational potential energy at some point since the Big Bang?

And I believe the answer is again no. Take the energy of burning fossil fuel, for example. As fossil fuel burns, energy is liberated from molecular bonds (chemical potential energy). Where does this energy come from and how did it get stored there? Well, prehistoric plants captured sunlight by photosynthesis and stored the energy in the molecular bonds.

Okay, so where does the energy of sunlight come from? Didn't it come from hydrogen falling together? No. The gravitational collapse of hydrogen did liberate a lot of energy, but the radiated energy of sunlight is much greater than that and comes not from gravitational collapse but from nuclear fusion of hydrogen nuclei. It is energy liberated from the field of strong nuclear force; the hydrogen nuclei have greater nuclear potential energy than the fusion products. Gravitational collapse helped liberate it as it warmed up the core of the star to ignite fusion, but is not its source.

Okay, so how did this nuclear potential energy get stored in hydrogen nuclei? In other words, what made matter in the universe consist of high-energy hydrogen, and not from low-energy iron, for example? The answer is the ultimate energy source, the Big Bang.

So it would seem that much of the energy of fossil fuels (and other forms of energy that come from sunlight) has actually never been stored in a gravitational field since Big Bang.

Hope that helps a little, and if I oversimplified things too much, I'm sure others will point that out.

[3point14]

Okay, here are my 2 cents on the subject. And for the sake of explanation, I will try to keep it simple and easily visualized, so I hope experts will excuse that.

The question, I believe, can be rephrased as, "Does all energy ultimately come from gravitational potential energy, liberated as things fall towards each other?"

I think there are two aspects of this question:

1. Does energy that does come from gravitational potential energy ultimately come from gravitational potential energy?

I believe the answer is no. When things fall together, they can liberate gravitational potential energy - you can easily verify that by picking up a hammer from the floor and dropping it on your toe. But in this hammer case, the gravitational field just acts as a temporary storage of energy, not its origin. Originally, there was no extra energy in the hammer as it lay on the floor. The energy that got liberated actually came from your muscles and got stored in the hammer as you lifted it off the floor.

In the general case of the universe, when things fall together and they liberate energy, we can ask: was the energy always there to begin with? And the answer is no; things weren't always far away to be able to fall together. Something pulled them apart, thus storing the energy in the gravitational field that can now be liberated as they fall back together. The energy that is liberated as, for example, interstellar clouds of hydrogen condense and warm up, ultimately comes from the Big Bang, not gravity.

2. Even if gravity isn't the ultimate source of energy, isn't it the universal common source of energy? In other words, has all energy that we encounter today been stored in the fom of gravitational potential energy at some point since the Big Bang?

And I believe the answer is again no. Take the energy of burning fossil fuel, for example. As fossil fuel burns, energy is liberated from molecular bonds (chemical potential energy). Where does this energy come from and how did it get stored there? Well, prehistoric plants captured sunlight by photosynthesis and stored the energy in the molecular bonds.

Okay, so where does the energy of sunlight come from? Didn't it come from hydrogen falling together? No. The gravitational collapse of hydrogen did liberate a lot of energy, but the radiated energy of sunlight is much greater than that and comes not from gravitational collapse but from nuclear fusion of hydrogen nuclei. It is energy liberated from the field of strong nuclear force; the hydrogen nuclei have greater nuclear potential energy than the fusion products. Gravitational collapse helped liberate it as it warmed up the core of the star to ignite fusion, but is not its source.

Okay, so how did this nuclear potential energy get stored in hydrogen nuclei? In other words, what made matter in the universe consist of high-energy hydrogen, and not from low-energy iron, for example? The answer is the ultimate energy source, the Big Bang.

So it would seem that much of the energy of fossil fuels (and other forms of energy that come from sunlight) has actually never been stored in a gravitational field since Big Bang.

Hope that helps a little, and if I oversimplified things too much, I'm sure others will point that out.

Not too simple for me by miles.

The bit I've bolded is where I was sort of starting from. Erroneously, as it turns out.

Thank you.

[SirPhilip]

Not the most stunning revelation, I'm sure, but I figured if I put it up here, I'd soon find out if I were wrong. Not quite. Gravity is essentially the opposite of energy - it exists as a fundamental, real dualism found throughout nature. Matter of course, is only created at the big bang (s?). The matter in the universe appears fixed, and matter and gravity separate, only because it is in a locked-in state over time. Creating energy is a genuinely supernatural event, it is absolutely impossible to do with matter interaction. The only conceivable way to interact or bend the rules would lie in some type of mathematical or geometric arrangement existing outside of everything, in which case you would be practicing sorcery, not science.

[Roboramma]

I like this thread.

Thought of an interesting way of addressing the question:
Imagine that gravitation didn't exist - would there still be energy?
It seems to me that there would.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.