Noah's Flood - finally some science?

[UnrepentantSinner]

I found this post by a guy who constantly talks about flood models, YECs doing science and peer review and he has no idea how out his ass he's talking when he does this, but he finally posted a series of links to IRC pages concerning "flood modeling" and I was wondering of the physicists, geologists and generally intersted in C/IDism folks could take a look at them.

ICR has bought a small computer cluster and is definitely working on flood modeling projects:

COMPUTER MODELING OF THE LARGE-SCALE TECTONICS ASSOCIATED WITH THE GENESIS FLOOD (http://icr.org/research/index/researchp_jb_largescaletectonics/)

COMPUTER MODELING OF THE LARGE-SCALE TECTONICS ASSOCIATED WITH THE GENESIS FLOOD ( (http://icr.org/research/index/researchp_jb_largescaletectonics_figs/)Figures) (http://icr.org/research/index/researchp_jb_largescaletectonics_figs/)

(I believe the computer modeling for this next one is just getting underway)
CATASTROPHIC PLATE TECTONICS: A GLOBAL FLOOD MODEL OF EARTH HISTORY (http://icr.org/research/index/researchp_as_platetectonicsl/)

PATTERNS OF OCEAN CIRCULATION OVER THE CONTINENTS DURING NOAH'S FLOOD (http://icr.org/research/index/researchp_jb_patternsofcirculation/)

PATTERNS OF OCEAN CIRCULATION OVER THE CONTINENTS DURING NOAH'S FLOOD (figures) (http://icr.org/research/index/researchp_jb_patternsofcirculation_figs/)

Numerical Climate Modeling at ICR
(http://icr.org/research/index/researchp_misc_climate_modeling/)
Alexander V. Lalomov, Ph.D. Geology (http://icr.org/research/index/research_physci_lalomov/)

[MRC_Hans]

Seems to be an example of massive application of Skinner's Constant.

(Skinner's Constant is the number you add, subtract, multiply, or divide into your observed data to get a result that fits your hypothesis).

Hans

[Didaktylos]

Seems to be an example of massive application of Skinner's Constant.

(Skinner's Constant is the number you add, subtract, multiply, or divide into your observed data to get a result that fits your hypothesis).

Hans

I'd always thought that it was called Finagle's Constant (http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mader/delta/deltoidslist/1998-06/msg00121.html).

[PixyMisa]

YEC plate tectonics! Love it!

He's got the continents moving at about two miles an hour. In yer face, Wegener!

[MRC_Hans]

Yes, and he has to jump through hoops to keep the temperature to come out below the boiling point. Yet, we are to believe that a group of total landlubbers sailed a large and heavily laden wood vessel unscathed through it all.

Hans

[PixyMisa]

Let's see:
The volcanism associated with rapid tectonics would have been of unprecedented magnitude and worldwide extent, but concentrated in particular zones and sites. At spreading centers magma would rise to fill in between plates separating at meters per second, producing a violent volcanic source tens of thousands of kilometers in length [7].
Yup, yup. And killing every living thing on the planet.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

When I was a child, I used to write these long, rambling, scientific-sounding papers full of nonsense. I even invented new terms such as flase. I would type these on my typewriter, tapping away, spewing forth papers as long as 10 pages.

Thank God I never came to the conclusion that the content was anything other than gibberish, or that I should present the papers as theological apologetics.

~~ Paul

[PixyMisa]

He's got things running on the order of a billion times their current speed. That would imply a billion times current levels of volcanic and earthquake activity. You'd have volcanic eruptions on the level of Tambora or Krakatoa every three or four seconds.

Not an environment through which I'd choose to sail a rickety boat packed with thousands of panicky animals.

[Megalodon]

However, it seems to be easier to model a world evolving at such pace then to model a wooden ark, of the reported dimensions, that would actually float.

No, as debris doesn't count...

[PixyMisa]

Does it change your calculations at all if the boat was floating in a boiling ocean covered in several metres of pumice and ash?

[Megalodon]

Since it would, at least, break in half as soon as it'd hit the water... I really don't think so...

It might burn down before it hit, but other than that...

[fuelair]

I found this post by a guy who constantly talks about flood models, YECs doing science and peer review and he has no idea how out his ass he's talking when he does this, but he finally posted a series of links to IRC pages concerning "flood modeling" and I was wondering of the physicists, geologists and generally intersted in C/IDism folks could take a look at them.
If during the Flood ocean water covered the continents, farming would have been a major problem for some time following (SALT in the soil is what we agricultural types like to call "really bad stuff").

[Fronzel]

If during the Flood ocean water covered the continents, farming would have been a major problem for some time following (SALT in the soil is what we agricultural types like to call "really bad stuff").

If god wanted crops to grow under an inch of salt, he could. Why do atheists not see this simple fact? Sure, it may violate every rule of nature and counter every precedent and god may have a success rate of 0.1% but that just means he doesn't want to do it, not that he can't.

The evidence is clear.

[Locknar]

If god wanted crops to grow under an inch of salt, he could. Why do atheists not see this simple fact? Sure, it may violate every rule of nature and counter every precedent and god may have a success rate of 0.1% but that just means he doesn't want to do it, not that he can't.

The evidence is clear.

Ah..."Gods will"; well that is a well thought out arguement - not.

[PixyMisa]

That's what it all comes down to, every time.

[pseudoscientific apologetic babble]

"But that's impossible, for these seventeen reasons."

"Goddidit."

[Cainkane1]

Theres so many reasons that Noahs flood was impossible that it staggers the imagination how anyone in this day and time in the western world could believe that nonsense. This is a creationist story and it has no credibility whatsoever.

[UnrepentantSinner]

If god wanted crops to grow under an inch of salt, he could. Why do atheists not see this simple fact? Sure, it may violate every rule of nature and counter every precedent and god may have a success rate of 0.1% but that just means he doesn't want to do it, not that he can't.

The evidence is clear.

I appreciate the responses, but if I could request "godditit therefore problem X is resolved" not be included in them it will help filter the scientific evisceration of these decidedly ad hoc "models" which YECs are suggesting are scientific. It's not that I don't appreciate them, but I've got a TE ally who was the OPer of the thread I got the links from and he's serious about using science to demolish YEC claims about "flood models" rather than usual atheist arguments.

[Fronzel]

Theistic escape artists will rationalize it the same way "Oh, you changed the data to not include god's majesty" or some such nonsense.

I think Talk Origins (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html) addresses the claims well.

[sir drinks-a-lot]

When I was a child, I used to write these long, rambling, scientific-sounding papers full of nonsense. I even invented new terms such as flase. I would type these on my typewriter, tapping away, spewing forth papers as long as 10 pages.

Thank God I never came to the conclusion that the content was anything other than gibberish, or that I should present the papers as theological apologetics.

I know someone who might be interested. (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/42384)

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Wouldn't it be easier simply to decide that a "day" in the Old Testament is longer than a standard Earth-rotation day? All kinds of problems would disappear.

~~ Paul

[ilikefrogs]

If during the Flood ocean water covered the continents, farming would have been a major problem for some time following (SALT in the soil is what we agricultural types like to call "really bad stuff").

(sarcasm) That much water would have deluted the salt concentration to such a low level that it would not have affected agriculture. And then god used his Wet-Vac to soak up all the salt water before the water evaporated and salt began settling out. (/sarcasm) :rolleyes:

[The Atheist]

When I was a child, I used to write these long, rambling, scientific-sounding papers full of nonsense. I even invented new terms such as flase. I would type these on my typewriter, tapping away, spewing forth papers as long as 10 pages.

Thank God I never came to the conclusion that the content was anything other than gibberish, or that I should present the papers as theological apologetics.

~~ Paul


But I bet you're sick when you wake up and check your bank balance then compare it to what it might have been if you'd used that gibberish as religious text, opened a church and got those thousands of gullible dicks who came to hear you read the gibberish, tithe 10% of their wages to you!

[The Atheist]

I found this post by a guy who constantly talks about flood models, YECs doing science and peer review and he has no idea how out his ass he's talking when he does this....

I was talking to a YEC the other day, quite friendly-like, until he told me how he was conducting "scientific research" into The FloodTM and I burst out laughing.

He didn't think it was that funny.

[UnrepentantSinner]

I was talking to a YEC the other day, quite friendly-like, until he told me how he was conducting "scientific research" into The FloodTM and I burst out laughing.

He didn't think it was that funny.

I was thinking about this last night at work. One of the YECs on CF makes repeated mention of putting gravel or something in a container, mixing it with water, shaking it up and then watching how the settlement of solids exactly replicates what one would expect in Noah's Flood. My questions were, did he include plankton and bacteria for the formation of chalk and varves, a dead clam, fish, lizard and mouse to see if they striatified according to "flood models", pollen which only wound up in pre-Tertiary strata, raindrop and insect burrow fossils in "flood strata", etc. etc. etc.

For some reason a lot of YECs have a hard time understanding that science is sometimes larger than making a papier mache volcano with baking soda and vinegar.

[The Atheist]

For some reason a lot of YECs have a hard time understanding that science is sometimes larger than making a papier mache volcano with baking soda and vinegar.

Yeah, funny how easy it is to reach the right conclusion when you start with the conclusion and use only evidence which supports it.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Yeah, funny how easy it is to reach the right conclusion when you start with the conclusion and use only evidence which supports it.

Modus operandi


Interesting article:
http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/node/13465/print

If I'm reading it right, this may give some support to my viewpoint that variations within limits are one thing, and beyond certain limits are quite another thing entirely. I also wondering if Behe's new book, which I hope to get for Father's day will support this as well.

My viewpoint (on which I'm willing to be shown wrong) is that there is a range of variation which is easy to have. One dog breed breeding with another breed and producing a whole new breed. But -- always a new dog, not a new cat.

It seems like post flood, there would have been huge variations show up from the limited # of critters carried on the Ark. But if they are allowed variations within each kind, then its a lot easier to understand and accept.

[MortFurd]

Wouldn't it be easier simply to decide that a "day" in the Old Testament is longer than a standard Earth-rotation day? All kinds of problems would disappear.

~~ Paul

And as many more new ones would appear.

That would automatically lengthen the lives of those for whom the bible gives ages.

Wasn't Noah supposedly 800 years old? Make the days longer, and man does he get OLD.

[Mashuna]

And as many more new ones would appear.

That would automatically lengthen the lives of those for whom the bible gives ages.

Wasn't Noah supposedly 800 years old? Make the days longer, and man does he get OLD.

Well, if you've already accepted 800 years as gospel, what's a few millenia between friends?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Note to self. Dig around some of laptoppop's greatest hits because some of his claims about the "science", "research" and "modeling" being done by YEC "scientists" are priceless.

[Moufflon]

[archaeological derail]

Also, when were these flood events? As far as I remember, Noah et al. were around in cities. The earliest Mesopotamian cities appear in the southern alluvium is around 3600BC (though that's relying on calibrated radiocarbon dates, which are, I suppose, the devil's work). Unfortunately, even in relative stratigraphic terms there is no evidence at sites like Eridu, Ur, or Uruk/Warka -- the earliest cities in the south -- of catastrophic flood-related abandonments. Doesn't work. The flaming volcanos and whatnot should surely have left some tefra? We find it elsewhere...

[/archaeological derail]