Drop the voting age to at least 15 in USA

[Dave1001]

It doesn't seem reasonable to deny people like this the right to vote, simply because they're not 18:

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post_group/ObamaHQ/CrKs

[HarryKeogh]

But what about the 15-year-olds who are still lighting their farts on fire?

[Fronzel]

I've seen plenty of 18 year olds I wish couldn't vote.

[NeoRicen]

15 is too low.

[Mobyseven]

Let me guess - you're an Obama supporter, and these kids are just showing incredible logic and reasoning in deciding to take a stand for him?

Please. One group of politically minded 15 year olds does not a representative sample make.

[NeoRicen]

In a non-compulsory voting country it might be Ok (I'd draw the line at 16 probably), but here in Australia where it's compulsory I'd oppose this.

[aggle-rithm]

It should be raised to 21, since the frontal lobes don't finish developing until then. Up to that point, people have a lot of difficulty separating logic from emotion.

Of course, it's smooth sailing after that... ;)

[Damien Evans]

In a non-compulsory voting country it might be Ok (I'd draw the line at 16 probably), but here in Australia where it's compulsory I'd oppose this.

there wouldn't be any point here anyway, they'd all just donkey vote

Nope, sounds like a terrible idea to me

[BPSCG]

But what about the 15-year-olds who are still lighting their farts on fire?Hey, I still do that! Don't you try to disenfranchise me! Count every vote! No justice, no peace! If it doesn't fit, you must acquit!

BTW, thinking back to when I was 15, if a girl who looked like that had approached me with a petition to sign, (they didn't have facebook back then - hell, we barely had a color TV) you can bet your next ten paychecks I would have signed, even had the petition's opening words been, "Whereas BPSCG is the Biggest Douche in the Universe..."

[KingMerv00]

Yea...brilliant idea.

Timberlake/Kutcher '08

[Skibum]

Yea...brilliant idea.

Timberlake/Kutcher '08

How much worse than Bush/Cheney could that be?

[ImaginalDisc]

Voting is an adult responsability. It's not child's play. If the age of majority were 15, I'd say make the voting age 15, but it's not.

[KingMerv00]

How much worse than Bush/Cheney could that be?

"Mr. Putin, your country has insulted the United States for the last time! I am excercising my nuclear opinion! Moscow will be no more!"

*Hangs up*

10 Minutes pass.

*Calls back*

"YOU'VE BEEN PUNKED!!!"

[corplinx]

Why am I not surprised that 15 year olds love a guy who does the political speech equivalent of what pro-wrestlers call "cutting a promo"?

[Bob Klase]

It doesn't seem reasonable to deny people like this the right to vote, simply because they're not 18[/url]

What about all the 14 years olds? You'd still deny them the right to vote? And if you give it to the 14 year olds then what the 13's, then the 12's...?

I was like 'wow, he wants to unify America, not justify its wrongs.' It's was such a refreshing way to see things.

Like wow! A politician who says he wants to unify America. Finally, someone with the courage to say what they really think!

[ImaginalDisc]

Why am I not surprised that 15 year olds love a guy who does the political speech equivalent of what pro-wrestlers call "cutting a promo"?


"Can you smell what the Obama is cooking? The Obama is not willing to play to the interests of powerful lobbies. The Obama serves the American people. Lobbyists, the Obama is going to crush you when he wins this election in a landslide!"

Seriously, what candidate doesn't do what you describe?

[Miss Anthrope]

Ummm, how about no.

[geni]

Voteing age should not fall below the age of the end of compulsory schooling (otherwise political campaining in classrooms would get a lot worse).

[MelBrooksfan]

I grew up in a pretty conservative neighborhood, and Republican household too... Rush Limbaugh was always on the radio. It was all I knew.

This has got to be child abuse.

[IXP]

Not a good idea:

Dad: You voted that that idiot?

Teen: Damn right I did.

Dad: Your grounded!

Teen: Can I go back and change my vote?

IXP

[corplinx]

"Can you smell what the Obama is cooking? The Obama is not willing to play to the interests of powerful lobbies. The Obama serves the American people. Lobbyists, the Obama is going to crush you when he wins this election in a landslide!"

Seriously, what candidate doesn't do what you describe?

Every candidate has their stump speeches with slogans their fans will recognize. And of course, you can't make a Obama-wrestling comparison without someone mention the Obama-Rock youtube video.

The video makes a good point though, Obama is cutting promos. He does it much better than the other candidates. He also does it like 99 percent of the time. Even Hillary isn't that overboard. Kucinich doesn't just cut promos (but hey, he doesn't count).

You give Obama 2 minutes to speak in a debate, and he cuts a promo. I'm telling you, the guy missed his calling. He's great on the stick.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Before dropping the age to 16 some questions should be addressed:
* Why was the historic age of suffrage 21?
* Why was it dropped to 18 in 1971 (in the US)?
* Is the reasoning for dropping it from 18 to 16 the same? Does it hold true?

Age
Despite the best of universal suffrage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_suffrage), all modern democracies require voters to meet age qualifications to vote and deny the right to vote to individuals below the voting age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_age). Often overlooked, young people under the voting age make up 20-50% of the population in some countries, and have no political representation. Worldwide voting ages are not consistent, fluctuating between countries and indeed within countries, usually between 15 (currently only in Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Iran#Executive_branch)) and 21.
In all democratic countries, young people are excluded from voting in local and national elections, though the voting age is set generally at 18. The option of qualifying by 'rite of passage' tests to certify a person's competence to vote responsibly is yet to be widely debated. One analogy is this: the 'right' to drive a motor vehicle is taken for granted, but few advocate that people of any age should be free to drive motor vehicles on public roads without first demonstrating practical skills and theoretical knowledge.
There have been proposals to lower the national voting age to 16 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Votes_at_16) in the United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom), one of the arguments for which being that, as people of 16 can marry, smoke, join the Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army) and pay taxes, for example, they should be allowed a say in the country's running. A similar argument supported the passage of the 26th Amendment to the United States Constitution in 1971, which lowered the voting age from 21 to 18. The argument stated that 18-year-olds were subject to the military (Vietnam-era) draft and that if one was expected to possibly die for one's country then one should certainly be permitted to help choose its leader. suffrage voting age

[Art Vandelay]

If she's 15 now, that means she was 12 when Obama made his 2004 speech. She's basing her support on her impressions of a single speech that she heard when she was 12. She was 8 when Bush was elected. She wasn't even born when Iraq invaded Kuwait. What persepective can she have on politics? How informed of a perspective on the war against Iraq can she have, when she wasn't even alive during the beginning, and small child through most of it?

[slingblade]

Never mind family "ballot-stuffing," as it were, because your parents make you vote their way.

Voters should at least be legally adult.

[Admiral]

This is familiar- http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=60954

My argument today is similar to what it was when I wrote that post then, so I'll just copy/paste it:

There is no group in America that is legally discriminated against as much as children. 17 year olds have interests and needs, 16 year olds pay taxes (sales taxes and, for many, income taxes, which they had no representation in determining), 15 year olds will be affected by who wins elections in which they have no voice... So why keep the voting age at 18? (Note to forum members from other countries: while I'm using the US for my current argument, most other nations are just as guilty.)

There are many, many counter-arguments, but each relies on undemocratic principles. For example-

Minors aren't intelligent or responsible enough to vote, since they haven't fully matured yet. No test of intelligence or aptitude is required for adults to vote, and nor should there be. This logic would indicate that the government should prevent individuals with mental disorders or with below-average IQs from voting. We can't use statistics, even scientifically sound statistics, to exclude groups of people from democracy.

Children would just vote along with their parents- they might even be coerced into voting certain ways by their parents or others. The same exact logic was used to prevent women from voting just a century ago, since people assumed they'd be influenced by their husbands. Instead, once women gained suffrage they were able to assert their independence.

Those are just a few examples, but no other arguments are convincing either (but just try me). The real reason that the voting age will never be lowered is that to the vast majority of people (and every single voter, by definition) it doesn't matter. They've passed the age, they're in the "club." Allowing more voters into the pool would just dilute their vote.

However, as skeptics, you should surely see that this age is arbitrary. What's more, there are huge advantages to lowering the voting age. Millions of Americans have interests that aren't represented by politicians, including education and civil rights. Lowering the voting age would help improve voter turnout, by instilling good habits into teenagers. And don't forget that as the system is now, people could be drafted by a President who won an election in which they couldn't vote. (Hypothetically, of course.)

As for me? I just turned 18 this year, and registered to vote not long after. But I have no intention of ignoring millions of unrepresented Americans just because it's no longer my problem.

Can anyone come up with a single decent, rational argument for not lowering the voting age?

Interestingly, geni used the same argument then that he does now, which, to be honest, I still find sort of ridiculous- roughly equivalent to the "We can't let women have the vote because voting occurs in bars, and it might be dangerous"- disenfranchisement based on circumstantial situations that can very easily be altered.

[KingMerv00]

This is familiar- http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=60954

My argument today is similar to what it was when I wrote that post then, so I'll just copy/paste it:



Interestingly, geni used the same argument then that he does now, which, to be honest, I still find sort of ridiculous- roughly equivalent to the "We can't let women have the vote because voting occurs in bars, and it might be dangerous"- disenfranchisement based on circumstantial situations that can very easily be altered.

Do you think there should be an age limit at all? If so, how do you justify that particular age?

[Lonewulf]

Hell, I know several 40 year olds that I wouldn't want to see voting. Or 50 year olds. Or 60. Or 30. Or 20.

Not because they necessarily disagree with me, but because many of them are very ignorant as to the issues at hand. I think we need more political education before we need to lower the age of voting; I consider the former to be more of a priority.

[Alt+F4]

I remember a few years ago there was a German Family group that proposed suffrage from birth. Parents would have a proxy vote until the child was a certain age. The reasoning behind it was to counter balance the huge senior vote.

[MelBrooksfan]

If she's 15 now, that means she was 12 when Obama made his 2004 speech. She's basing her support on her impressions of a single speech that she heard when she was 12. She was 8 when Bush was elected. She wasn't even born when Iraq invaded Kuwait. What persepective can she have on politics? How informed of a perspective on the war against Iraq can she have, when she wasn't even alive during the beginning, and small child through most of it?

Well, she can read, can't she? She may've gone and researched it.

[Darth Rotor]

Drop the voting age to at least 15 in USA

From your suggestion, I derive that you want Bart Simpson to win in a write in campaign, or that you wish to add to the volume of gullible people who pull the handle, hang the chad, fill in the mark sense, or touch the screen and hit enter.

How does this improve the process, other than to reduce the need for informed debate on issues?

DR

[aggle-rithm]

Around the time I went to the University of Texas, they elected a dog as student government president. A few years later, they elected a comic strip character that was the hallucination of another comic strip character.

Shows what happens when most of the voters are in the 18-22 demographic.

[Cheesejoff]

Around the time I went to the University of Texas, they elected a dog as student government president. A few years later, they elected a comic strip character that was the hallucination of another comic strip character.

Shows what happens when most of the voters are in the 18-22 demographic.

True, but look at the adult voters in the United States. They elected Bush, then a few years later elected him again!

[rtalman]

Let's lower the voting age to 14. Then life can imitate art.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0063808/

[slingblade]

You know, toddlers with pocket change have to pay sales tax, too.

And nine-year-olds who run lemonade stands have to report their income.

The voting age wasn't lowered because of who pays taxes.
It was lowered because 18-year-olds were being sent to war, where they might die, and yet had no say in choosing the leaders who sent them to war.

Slightly different reasoning.

[MelBrooksfan]

You know, toddlers with pocket change have to pay sales tax, too.

And nine-year-olds who run lemonade stands have to report their income.

The voting age wasn't lowered because of who pays taxes.
It was lowered because 18-year-olds were being sent to war, where they might die, and yet had no say in choosing the leaders who sent them to war.

Slightly different reasoning.

But there's that whole taxation without representation spiel that was part of the U.S.'s founding.

[skeptifem]

I would say I feel uncomfortable with a 15 year old voting, but then again I have met informed/smart 15 year olds and also uninformed illogical adults who love to vote. I feel like some sort of proccess to weed out the uninformed people would be the best solution rather than relying on age alone.

[ImaginalDisc]

We should let minors vote because it's arbitrary and unjustified to deny them representation in government when they are effected by government? That argument doesn't hold water. Minors cannot enter into contracts, be tried as adults without special rulings, and are denied a laundry list of rights, responsibilities, and privileges that are part of adulthood. 18 is a completely arbitrary age to declare a person an adult, I grant you, but you're asking for an adult right to be given to people who pay no taxes and thus don't have a say in how that money is spent. This is as absurd as parents that let themselves be outvoted on money decisions by their own brood. If you think making the voting age 18 is arbitrary and therefore wrong, what age would you choose that is not arbitrary?

[MelBrooksfan]

who pay no taxes and thus don't have a say in how that money is spent.

But, they do pay taxes. Minors can work, therefore some minors pay taxes. So, do we extend the vote to all tax-paying citizens?

[ImaginalDisc]

But, they do pay taxes. Minors can work, therefore some minors pay taxes. So, do we extend the vote to all tax-paying citizens?

Touche. Even non-citisens can work. I withdraw that arguement. The bit about minors not having *any* adult rights or responsailbities still stands. Making an exception for voting makes no sense.

[Admiral]

Do you think there should be an age limit at all? If so, how do you justify that particular age?

Forgive me for reusing another old post.

You're right that the law draws an arbitrary line. But do you really think that 18 is, in any way, a decent age? If what you want is an argument that directly addresses why it's a bad age to choose, then OK.

Teenagers can get working papers, depending on the state, starting at some age from 14-16 (some states earlier, probably, but I'm concerned with once people are 16). Many, many 16-year-olds, therefore have jobs- mostly part-time jobs, but some full-time. This brings in dozens of effects that the government has over them- taxation, minimum wage, job creation, unionization, worker's rights, economic policy. At this age, they're capable of going out and getting a job. How can you say that they're not capable of representing their own interests where that job is concerned?

Also, consider that the age where people can be drafted is 18 (if there were a hypothetical draft). This might make it seem logical that the age is 18. Except that presidents are elected for four year terms. If someone is 17 when an election is held, they're going to spend about 3 and a half years during which they can be drafted by an administration that they didn't help select. And don't get me started on the election of senators- individuals that are 17 when an election is held spend five and a half years as an adult who didn't help select one of his representatives in the senate. It's just not rational to prevent 17-year-olds and 16-year-olds from electing someone that will govern them both when they're a minor and when they're an adult. The draft is just one example- consider that they have no say in helping determine tax policy for when they enter the working world. So many of their important interests are being squelched. (I know that you'd say this is also an issue that affects 15 year olds, and for that matter people younger than them, but the effect is less, as you know, and for now I'd be willing to lower the age to 16.)

As another reason, setting the voting age at this point is an extremely bad strategy for improving voter turnout. An important reason that voters are so disillusioned with the system is that they didn't "get to them" when they were young enough. As I remember hearing once from one pundit or another- "The church gets them young, why shouldn't we?" Lowering the voting age and giving young people the chance to make a difference in their early lives would greatly improve civic pride. As it is, setting the age at 18 just creates hassle and inconvenience- many students are moving around the country, either to college or to other jobs, and they're just forced to reregister. It's not a good age to try and set good voting habits.

Finally, the age of 18 is not the long-recognized marker of adulthood that many claim it is. As I mentioned earlier, the voting age was decreased from 21 to 18 only 35 years ago. And, more interestingly, many cultures have very different views of when one becomes an adult. Many Hispanic countries focus largely on the age of 16. Judaism sets the age of 13 for the transition into adulthood. Marraige used to be possible between 12-year-olds in various other countries. 18 is nothing but a phase that should be shifted to adapt to the political needs of minors today.

I have more reasons, but I'll have to give them later. Check this link, though:

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/4/7/222553/0462

[JamesDillon]

But, they do pay taxes. Minors can work, therefore some minors pay taxes. So, do we extend the vote to all tax-paying citizens?

Conversely, citizens over 18 have the right to vote even if they don't pay income taxes (because their income is too low or they just haven't been convicted of tax evasion yet). So the argument that voting is a right that comes with contributing to the commonwealth doesn't really work.

That said, 18 sounds about right to me; if anything, the voting age should be raised a few years, rather than lowered. I note that Dave1001 hasn't appeared in this thread to defend his suggestion since opening the discussion, but I suspect he must be aware that we can't make decisions affecting the entire population on the basis of a handful of extraordinary individuals. No doubt there are some 15-year-olds who are sufficiently mature and informed to handle the responsibility that comes with voting-- and there are a lot of 30-year-olds who aren't. But concededly arbitrary lines must be drawn somewhere, and it would take a lot more than a handful of precocious kids to persuade me that the voting age should be set any lower than it currently is.

[Miss Anthrope]

But, they do pay taxes. Minors can work, therefore some minors pay taxes. So, do we extend the vote to all tax-paying citizens?

Minors who are still in school are almost always exempt.

[SezMe]

Sling hit it from my perspective. If you're old enough to be drafted and be killed in service to your country, you're old enough to vote. I'm open to sliding the age at which both events occur, but both have to be the same.

[Miss Anthrope]

Sling hit it from my perspective. If you're old enough to be drafted and be killed in service to your country, you're old enough to vote. I'm open to sliding the age at which both events occur, but both have to be the same.

I've absolutely nothing to say but that this is fair. (Though I DESPISE the notion of a draft with the slightest possible consideration to exception in the event of local invasion). I also think if you can die for your country you should be considered not so much a child that you can't buy a beer.

[SezMe]

I also think if you can die for your country you should be considered not so much a child that you can't buy a beer.

Absolutely.

[ImaginalDisc]

I've absolutely nothing to say but that this is fair. (Though I DESPISE the notion of a draft with the slightest possible consideration to exception in the event of local invasion). I also think if you can die for your country you should be considered not so much a child that you can't buy a beer.

I thought that 18-20 year olds could buy alcohol if they show a military ID, as some sort of strange inducement to join up, I suppose.

[MelBrooksfan]

I thought that 18-20 year olds could buy alcohol if they show a military ID, as some sort of strange inducement to join up, I suppose.

Though many establishments will serve alcohol to those with military ID, I don't believe it is legal for them to do so.

[Alt+F4]

Sling hit it from my perspective. If you're old enough to be drafted and be killed in service to your country, you're old enough to vote. I'm open to sliding the age at which both events occur, but both have to be the same.

I get your point, but what about those 18 year-olds due to physical limitations, would never be able to do military service? Do we deny them the vote.

I agree with other posters that 18 is an arbitrary age, perhaps a graduated system towards adult responsibility. I say 16 for voting, 17 for driving, 18 for everything else.

By age 16 a person can be charged as an adult for most crimes and get a job "on the books". In addition, by age 16 most kids have had a civics/government class in high school and is probably more informed then the average 30 year-old. Here's a sample of government questions 16 year-olds are required to know in New York State:

http://www.regentsprep.org/Regents/core/questions/question.cfm?Course=USHG&TopicCode=2b&QNum=1&Wrong=0

Is there any other country on earth that has a 21 year-old drinking age? Ridiculous! Why do you think there is so much irresponsible drinking among young people? It's because they aren't taught from a young age to drink responsibibly. A glass of wine with dinner, not a hard hat with two beer cans and two straws attached. Binge drinking is caused by the fear of getting caught, so drink it all right now, really, really fast.

[SezMe]

I get your point, but what about those 18 year-olds due to physical limitations, would never be able to do military service? Do we deny them the vote.
No, the criterion would be the AGE at which one is eligble for military service, not the fact of military service itself.

[strathmeyer]

Minors who are still in school are almost always exempt.

Sorry, Miss A, but sales taxes get everyone.