Malachiville vs. Shanektown

[Jude]

Pretend there was no moderation for a moment. If you had to decide between living in a nationstate that adheres to Malachi151's or shanek's ideals; which would it be? I shouldn't need to explain their ideal societies, as they are two of the most prominent thread starters in PCE&H.

[Suddenly]

Planet X. Also known as "Shempville"

[jj]

Shempville for me.

[no one in particular]

This is much nicer than my Who is the idiot? (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23499) poll.

[Jude]

While we're at it, we should brainstorm country names. Malachiville and Shanektown are rather drab. Malachina? Afshanekstan?

[Mahatma Kane Jeeves]

A nice little Cape on Curly Street, Shempville USA

[shuize]

One of the biggest drawbacks to living in Malachiville would be the 10,000 page newspaper editorials.

[davefoc]

This is an easy choice for me.

Although, I realize Shanek's views are a little out there by some people's standards, I think that a stable, peaceful society can be built around them. However even if there was a group of people that understood and believed in Shanek's ideas who founded a country, as a practical matter, there would be a gradual drift away from the pure libertarian ideal, towards a system where the government, particularly local governments provided some services.

From what I understand of Malachi151's views the situation is very different because:

1.The centralization of power leads almost immediately to tremendous instability as the system swings to the whims of a few people.
2. Ignoring the importance of the law of supply in demand inevitably leads to shortages and supply disruptions as the unintended consequences of the planned economy come into play.
3. The disastrous results of the attempts to implement Malachi's paradise leads, almost immediately, to widespred unrest, which the government either because they are true believers or because they are psychopathic jerks will attempt to control with various brutal totalitarian techniques.

So Malachi151's paradise will never see the light of day for various practical reasons and what will be created instead is a brutal, despotic dictatorship.

[davefoc]

shuize said:
One of the biggest drawbacks to living in Malachiville would be the 10,000 page newspaper editorials.

:)

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by davefoc
1.The centralization of power leads almost immediately to tremendous instability as the system swings to the whims of a few people.
2. Ignoring the importance of the law of supply in demand inevitably leads to shortages and supply disruptions as the unintended consequences of the planned economy come into play.
3. The disastrous results of the attempts to implement Malachi's paradise leads, almost immediately, to widespred unrest, which the government either because they are true believers or because they are psychopathic jerks will attempt to control with various brutal totalitarian techniques.


You dont think that in Shanek's model, there would be a massive centralization of power towards the extremely rich and wealthy. Bill gates would effectively become King(tm) of the MSolarSystem (tm)and CHAOS WILL REIGN!!!!!

We will all be fed an oversupply of crappy MSWindows(tm) software that doesnt work leading to dire shortages of anything that actually is usefull, works and is smaller than 250 gigabytes(tm).

The disasterous results of MSWorld(tm) will lead to widespread unrest which the psycopathic bastard Gates will respond to with various brutal MSTotalitarianCnut(tm) techniques.

[Malachi151]

LOL, silly poll, especially since there is no information on what the policies of saidplaces would be :p

[WildCat]

Malachiville already exists, it's called North Korea.
Come to think of it, so does Shanektown, it's called Somalia. ;)

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by WildCat
Malachiville already exists, it's called North Korea.
Come to think of it, so does Shanektown, it's called Somalia. ;)

Yeah right, if there were some magical place where I set the rules it would essentially be:

A capitalist economy with a progressive tax structure with no stupid loop holes for special interests.

No income tax at all on the bottom half of income earners.

Property tax would be a more significant element of the tax system and income tax would be a less prominate tax for all tax brackets. Inheritance tax would be higher as well.

A public investment program whereby everyone pays a flat tax on all income of 5% which is then pooled into an investment portfolio for every worker.

Recreational drugs would be legal, manufactured for the state by private industry, but dispensed by state clinics. This would be take focus away from the profit motive and instead focus on viewing recreational drug users as medical patients.

Marijuana would not be considered a controlled drug, it would like alcohol, able to be sold and marketed by private industry.

Prostitution would be legal, with a state licensing system to ensure safety.

Education would be the number one priority, with a focus on the sciences.

There would be freedom of religion, but no state acknowledgement of religion in any way and all religious institutions would be taxed just like any other entity.

Mandatory military service for 1 year when you graduate highschool for both boys and girls, and no way to get out of it except for medical reasons, meaning that you can't buy your way out.

No laws against public nudity.

There would be capital punishment, and castration for repeat rape offenders.

Total openess of government, no secretive agencies at all.

More restrictions on advertising to ensure that advertising can't be deceptive in nature.

Junk food would be lightly taxed and healthy food would be lightly subsadized.

There would be a public healthcare system, but private healthcare would still be encouranged. The public system would just be one level of care and would not provide all services, just the most essential.

Politicians would be required to use only public funds to campaign. There would be no PACs at all or any legal way for anyone to contribute money to politicans.

A news organization like the BBC would be created to off of state funds, but with minimal control by the state.

A state agency like NASA, but who's focus was not just space, but all science. The focus of the agency would change depending on need, but now it would focus on alternative energy.

More city planning would take place, through the use of town hall meetings and internet interaction, to design cities based on public ideas. In other words instead of some zoning board just zoning areas, and making streets there would be an effor to design cities more as works of art, based on the input from the public about how they want the city to be. Cities would be more functional in design and built to reduce traffic and take advantage of mass transit. There would be a mix of public and private mass transit.

[KelvinG]

I need a similar list from shanek before I decide where to move.

I don't mind the sound of Malachiville in many ways, but that 1 year of mandatory military service has me cringing.

[Diamond]

"Politicians would be required to use only public funds to campaign. There would be no PACs at all or any legal way for anyone to contribute money to politicans"

I worry about this one.... :rolleyes:

[Mr Manifesto]

And theeeey're neck and neck! (at time of writing anyway: 11-all)

[Jude]

If shanek wants to draw up a short summary of his ideal society, it'd be appreciated.

[Upchurch]

I once drove through Billieburg. Very strange place. A lot of mysterious disapperances.

[BillyTK]

I'll stick with the anarcho-socialist republic of Billyshire thank you very much (also known as the narky-socialists county of Yorkshire, but we're working on seceding from the union...)

[Hexxenhammer]

I'm moving to Anvilania.

"Oh the anvils shine
In my old Anvilanian home."

[shemp]

Originally posted by jj
Shempville for me.

Thank you (and Suddenly too) for the endorsement. Extra fried chicken and ice cream for you every Tuesday!

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by KelvinG
I need a similar list from shanek before I decide where to move.

I don't mind the sound of Malachiville in many ways, but that 1 year of mandatory military service has me cringing.

I think it would be good. The good thing about making it mandatory is that you can't be at a disadvantage for going to the military, in other word you won't be behind others that chose to go to college since everyone has to go.

The other thing is that I would then want a smaller standing army and a smaller overall military budget which can be compenstated for by having a moderatly tranied civilian population so that in a time of need military demands can be met, but outside of need there isn't as big a need to have a full time miltiary. Obviously you still have a standing army, just a smaller one.

Plus everyone would have a more realistic understanding of the military and would have aquired some good skills that are not the type you get in school.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Malachi151


I think it would be good. The good thing about making it mandatory is that you can't be at a disadvantage for going to the military, in other word you won't be behind others that chose to go to college since everyone has to go.
What's the point of sending everyone off to college?

The other thing is that I would then want a smaller standing army and a smaller overall military budget which can be compenstated for by having a moderatly tranied civilian population so that in a time of need military demands can be met, but outside of need there isn't as big a need to have a full time miltiary. Obviously you still have a standing army, just a smaller one.

Plus everyone would have a more realistic understanding of the military and would have aquired some good skills that are not the type you get in school.

Sounds like someone has been reading Soviet methodology.

[Dancing David]

Shempvillie or Postopia for me, I did vote for malachiville because then I can continue to be employeed, same reason I vote for Republicans at times!

Malachania?
The Free Republic Of Shane?

[Valmorian]

The two most important things that keep me voting for Malachiville are:
1. Mandatory Military service.
2. Capital Punishment.

The first is far too coercive for me, the second too barbaric.

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by Grammatron

What's the point of sending everyone off to college?


Sounds like someone has been reading Soviet methodology.

No actually that comes from the American fouders. The founders opposed a standing army and promoted a milita. I would not consider the civilian population a militia, but its the same idea as the founders were talking about, having an civilian population that knows how to take care of itself.

It takes the power out of the hands of the state in the form of a standing army and into the hands of the people.

The Soviets and places like Korean all have large standing armies. The purpose here would be to reduce the standing.

Its not really that big an issue, just what I would do if it were all up to me. If its something that every hads to do then I think it would be accepted as quite normal. In fact they do this in the Netherlands.

[davefoc]

Jon_in_london said:
You dont think that in Shanek's model, there would be a massive centralization of power towards the extremely rich and wealthy.

This is a common argument against libertarian approaches to government. Milton Friedman makes a good case (I think) that it doesn't happen. Instead, the monopolies that are created are actually government enforced monopolies and private monopolies without government protection are soon destroyed by greedy capitalists who are trying to horn in on the private monopoly's markets.

In practice what does happen at times, is that people use the concentration of wealth to buy protection for their businesses from politicians. The old ICC (interstate commerce commission) is the classic example, but today we have government mandated cartels for various forms of agriculture (milk and hops to name a few), government protection of the steel industry, etc.

Your referene to Microsoft is interesting, in that I think it is a little different than the kinds of businesses that Friedman was theorizing about when he claimed that private monopolies were always destroyed by the market. The difference, I see, is that Microsoft has a monopoly not through the standard means of controlling production by conspiring with other producers but rather by control of an industry standard. Sort of like there was only one company that could lay rail road track of the standard guage. Even here, even if we except the idea that Microsoft is an example of a private monopoly it still has produced some very useful products that are distributed at a relatively small price to the users.

[slimshady2357]

Originally posted by Valmorian
The two most important things that keep me voting for Malachiville are:
1. Mandatory Military service.
2. Capital Punishment.

The first is far too coercive for me, the second too barbaric.

And yet they are the two most important things that keep you voting for Malachiville? :confused:

So you're telling us you're coercive and barbaric? :D

Btw, I haven't seen shanek's summary yet, but I like Malachiville.

So until I see something better from shanek, I'm going with Malachiville!

Adam

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Jude
While we're at it, we should brainstorm country names. Malachiville and Shanektown are rather drab. Malachina? Afshanekstan?
I must modestly point out that the names for one of these towns has already been suggested. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1869919022&highlight=republicrat#post1869919022)
---
Originally posted by Tricky
Shanektady - A small town in New York where all the services are pay-for-use, smoking is allowed everywhere, and the two parties are Libertarian and Republicrat.

[JAR]

I chose Shanektown, of course.

In view of the fact that most of my ancestry is English, I'd have to be a stupid white liberal to find Malachi151's "The English are worthy of any form of persecution" philosophy appealing.

[Tony]

Gee, slavery or freedom?


I choose freedom.

[davefoc]

Has Malachi151 released his policy statement to mark a major move to the middle and thereby capture the undecided vote here?

[JAR]

Originally posted by Malachi151


I think it would be good. The good thing about making it mandatory is that you can't be at a disadvantage for going to the military, in other word you won't be behind others that chose to go to college since everyone has to go.

The other thing is that I would then want a smaller standing army and a smaller overall military budget which can be compenstated for by having a moderatly tranied civilian population so that in a time of need military demands can be met, but outside of need there isn't as big a need to have a full time miltiary. Obviously you still have a standing army, just a smaller one.

Plus everyone would have a more realistic understanding of the military and would have aquired some good skills that are not the type you get in school.
Ha, Ha!!

I knew it. Malachi151 likes the military draft. The reasons for me to not like Malachi151 just keep mounting. And I thought leftists were against the military draft. Obviously Malachi151 is not one those peace loving leftists. He comes from the more dangerous breed that favors using tyranny, war and totalitarianism to achieve ends.

[JAR]

Before you people choose Malachiville, take into consideration that when Malachi151 criticizes the U.S. for being inhumane(example: criticizing the U.S. for using capital punishment on children), he is being hypocritical. Malachi151 has nothing against tyranny, slavery, and genocide, as long as it is used to get rid of or enslave people of English ancestry and to bring the world closer to world communism.

[shanek]

Originally posted by davefoc
Although, I realize Shanek's views are a little out there by some people's standards, I think that a stable, peaceful society can be built around them. However even if there was a group of people that understood and believed in Shanek's ideas who founded a country, as a practical matter, there would be a gradual drift away from the pure libertarian ideal, towards a system where the government, particularly local governments provided some services.

Why do you conclude that?

Although I will say I'm more sanguine about local government involvement than state or Federal. People have greater control over their local governemnts, and they're also more easily avoided. Not that I'd prefer that to a completely libertarian society...

[shanek]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
You dont think that in Shanek's model, there would be a massive centralization of power towards the extremely rich and wealthy.

Why would there be?

Bill gates would effectively become King(tm) of the MSolarSystem (tm)and CHAOS WILL REIGN!!!!!

How would he be able to force himself on others?

[shanek]

Originally posted by WildCat
Come to think of it, so does Shanektown, it's called Somalia.

How is Somalia in any way, shape, or form Libertarian?

[shanek]

Originally posted by KelvinG
I need a similar list from shanek before I decide where to move.

http://www.lp.org/issues/
http://www.lpnc.org/documents/platform.html
http://lincoln.lpnc.org/lincoln/issues.html

I don't mind the sound of Malachiville in many ways, but that 1 year of mandatory military service has me cringing.

Oddly enough, it does sound preferable to the current state of affairs...

[shanek]

Originally posted by Hexxenhammer
I'm moving to Anvilania.

"Oh the anvils shine
In my old Anvilanian home."

Anvilaaaaaa-niaaaaaaaaaa.... Anvilaaaaaaa-niaaaaaaaa.... Anvilaaaaa-aaaa-aaaaaaaaaaa, niaaaaaaaa-aaaaaaa, aaaaaaaaa!

[Mr Manifesto]

Still neck-and-neck!

23:23 at time of posting.


Let's face it, kids... this is a bi-polar forum.

[gnome]

(in response to Anvilonia theme song)

:o
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Seriously though, the poll is light... we need a big poll with lots of options from our biggest political squawkers (I include myself in that)...

Stuff like Shempville and Billieburg indeed...

plus maybe the Gnomic Republic, Rikvilla, and any other ghastly puns we can think of...

I welcome a new name for my republic, it just came off the top of my head.

[gnome]

Oh, and by the way, my vote was for Shanektown...

Not particularly into either choice, but Shanektown seems more likely to change for the better. :)

[WildCat]

Originally posted by shanek


How is Somalia in any way, shape, or form Libertarian?
1. A non-existent or weak central gov't.
2. No gun control at all, anyone can own one of these babies! (http://membres.lycos.fr/France40/photos/benz2.jpg)
3. No income taxes!
4. No interest at all in the world outside of Somalia.
5. No public schools.
6. All the legal quat you can chew. :)
7. No power, phone, gas, oil monopolies.

And lighten up Shanek, it was only a joke, that's what the
;) was for!

Edited to remove pic and insert link instead, my apologies to all you dial-up users!

[shanek]

Originally posted by WildCat

1. A non-existent or weak central gov't.
2. No gun control at all, anyone can own one of these babies! (http://membres.lycos.fr/France40/photos/benz2.jpg)
3. No income taxes!
4. No interest at all in the world outside of Somalia.
5. No public schools.
6. All the legal quat you can chew. :)
7. No power, phone, gas, oil monopolies.

No government AT ALL to protect the rights of the people... Effective clan rule of the country... No legal system... even the Supreme Court is nonfunctional...

And this is all thanks to the US "liberating" it.

(And yes, I know it was meant to be a joke, but even jokes need some semblance of reality...)

[Grammatron]

Since I had the honor of living in a Marxist "paradise" that Malachiville is bound to become, I think I'll go for Shanektown.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Malachi151


Yeah right, if there were some magical place where I set the rules it would essentially be:

A capitalist economy with a progressive tax structure with no stupid loop holes for special interests.

No income tax at all on the bottom half of income earners.

Property tax would be a more significant element of the tax system and income tax would be a less prominate tax for all tax brackets. Inheritance tax would be higher as well.



In your perfect world, there is no fundamental right of privacy. Income and property taxes are violations of that right.

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by corplinx


In your perfect world, there is no fundamental right of privacy. Income and property taxes are violations of that right.

Umm.. we have income and property taxes now in the US incase you hadn't noticed :p Far as I know every country on earth has them.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Malachi151
Umm.. we have income and property taxes now in the US incase you hadn't noticed

Oh, I've noticed...I've also noticed us losing our privacy rights...

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Malachi151

Politicians would be required to use only public funds to campaign. There would be no PACs at all or any legal way for anyone to contribute money to politicans.


very good idea.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by davefoc
Jon_in_london said:


This is a common argument against libertarian approaches to government. Milton Friedman makes a good case (I think) that it doesn't happen.

Whatever Friedman said. It obviously does happen.

It happens because of intellectual property rights. No one else can muscle in on microsoft because they have the most expensive lawyers (and thus the best) and the law on therefore the law on their side.

But then I guess a true libertarian would despise something as regulatory as patents............? Shanek?

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by shanek


Why would there be?


How would he be able to force himself on others?

because the very wealthy would become the very powerfull and therefore the de facto governing class.

Gates would be able to force himself on others because he would be the richest and most powerfull and could then do whatever be wants. What would stop him.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
very good idea.

No, it's not. It would just make incumbents that much harder to unseat. They would still enjoy all of the benefits of the free press throughout their term of office and would come in to the election with an enormous advantage that no one would be able to raise enough money to defeat.

It's only a "very good idea" to someone who already holds office. To someone trying to unseat them, it's crippling.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
But then I guess a true libertarian would despise something as regulatory as patents............? Shanek?

Patents are a government-sponsored monopoly and as such should be abolished.

I can see the wisdom of a patent-like structure where a company could stop competitors from releasing derivative products, for a very limted time, if it could be proved that it was, in fact, derivative. If someone works completely on their own and invents the same thing independently, they should be allowed to do so; they aren't under the current system. It should also apply only to product inventions. Mathematical formulae, laws of nature, etc. should not be at all patentable. And certainly not if it's something that existed before.

This would have allowed Westinghouse to market his light bulb, which he had just as much of a right to as Edison. It also would have prevented Alvan Clark from patenting the telescope hundreds of years after Galileo published how one works.

The problem is, I can't think of a way to introduce such a scheme so that it won't be expanded by politicians right back into the current scheme we now have.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
because the very wealthy would become the very powerfull and therefore the de facto governing class.

How? What would be the source of thier power? Don't just restate the assertion; explain how!

[peptoabysmal]

Yeesh, is it too late to defect to the Soviet Union?

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Malachi151


Umm.. we have income and property taxes now in the US incase you hadn't noticed :p

Yep, I noticed. Interestingly enough, the federal goverment has no property tax on citizens (sorta). In actuality, the fed government pays your property taxes for you since any money you pay your state/county/city is deductible from your federal income tax. In other words, its a middle man scheme that pumps money from the fed directly to the regional goverments. Its the sorta of inefficient channeling of funds only a democrat could love. (sorry, cant help but be partisan here even though im reluctantly republican)

The income tax of course was added through a constitutional amendment. However, since it violates privacy, equal protection, and so many other fundamental principles of our republic I am not sure how long it will be around.

[shanek]

Originally posted by corplinx
Yep, I noticed. Interestingly enough, the federal goverment has no property tax on citizens (sorta).

They can't. The Constitution forbids direct taxes unless they're apportioned to the population.

In actuality, the fed government pays your property taxes for you since any money you pay your state/county/city is deductible from your federal income tax.

Huh? How is that the Feds paying for your property taxes? It's YOUR money! They just condescend not to take it from you if you've already given it to another government.

The income tax of course was added through a constitutional amendment. However, since it violates privacy, equal protection, and so many other fundamental principles of our republic I am not sure how long it will be around.

Hopefully not much longer. But it's not as if the only libertarian in Congress (Ron Paul) has had much luck getting rid of it, although he does get "A's" for effort and persistence. Unfortunately, the rooster's in charge of the henhouse.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by shanek

Huh? How is that the Feds paying for your property taxes? It's YOUR money! They just condescend not to take it from you if you've already given it to another government.


Technically of course you are right. However, it is interesting to note that when your property taxes go up its the fed government who really gets the bump since thats lost federal tax revenue.

[Dancing David]

You can only deduct your local and states taxes if you itemise, am I right? And there is little benefit for many people to do that. I always thought that you should be able to take all other taxes out of the federal taxes.

I will vistit Shaneketedy often, maybe live there but I will have to commute to work in Malacianian, but I will pay income tax in Malacianian but just user fees in Shanektedy.

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by shanek


Oh, I've noticed...I've also noticed us losing our privacy rights...

In case you hadn't noticed American have no privatcy at all anymore, but it has nothing to do with the government.

The private sector knows more about everyone than any public sector, and in fact the private sector can do things that the government is not allowed to do.

Data mining is a growing industry in America, and its a private industry of collecting, storing, and cross referenceing information on individuals. Profiels are built of every person that has any kind of accounts or whatever. The phone comapny sells your informaiton, your bank, your credit cards, your grocery store discount tag things, internet companies, etc.

Databased are compinled and profiles are created, and then those profiles are used to sell you name to different groups.

A comapny can ask for the names and contact info for people likely to buy dog soap, they get the list, then the mass mail to them. But, the info can be used for anything, and now there is a move in Florida to allow teh state to use these database to profile people. Private industry is lobbying for it because then they get to sell the info to the state.

Yes, we are losing privacy, but its the private insutry that is the one taking it away.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Dancing David
You can only deduct your local and states taxes if you itemise, am I right? And there is little benefit for many people to do that. I always thought that you should be able to take all other taxes out of the federal taxes.

I will vistit Shaneketedy often, maybe live there but I will have to commute to work in Malacianian, but I will pay income tax in Malacianian but just user fees in Shanektedy.

If you own a home, then most likely the mortgage and property taxes combined are more than the standard deduction.

The tax system is being setup in such a way as to spur the housing the market and the nuclear family. Simply put, a middle income family with a house note and a few kids will pay no federal income taxes anymore. How do you like your social engineering this week?

[shanek]

Originally posted by Dancing David
I will vistit Shaneketedy often, maybe live there but I will have to commute to work in Malacianian, but I will pay income tax in Malacianian but just user fees in Shanektedy.

Whose retirement plan would you go for?

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Malachi151


Databased are compinled and profiles are created, and then those profiles are used to sell you name to different groups.


You can prevent all 3 of the big credit bureaus from sharing your information with a phone call to each. That is the largest breach of your privacy.

Aside from that, use a bank with a good privacy policy.

Yes government privacy invasion is worse.

[Valmorian]

Originally posted by slimshady2357


And yet they are the two most important things that keep you voting for Malachiville? :confused:

So you're telling us you're coercive and barbaric? :D



Damn, I missed the 'from'. I'm sure most people understood what I meant, though. ;)

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by shanek


Whose retirement plan would you go for?

Depends, I would assume that what little is left after I pay income tax in Malchanaia I can invest if mutual funds in Shanektedy.

(I used to like The American MF, but the they switched to MFS, now I have AXA, I use an employer 401k)

[JAR]

Originally posted by Grammatron
Since I had the honor of living in a Marxist "paradise"
[snip].
What place is that?