My favourite homoeopathic remedies

[Yuri Nalyssus]

Just thought I'd post some of my favourite homoeopathic provings and remedies, gleaned after years of idle surfing. If anyone needed a reminder of how screamingly bonkers homoeopathy is just add these links to your favourites list and look at them whenever you need a humourous reality check:

The Berlin wall (http://www.biolumanetics.net/tantalus/Cases/BerlinWall.htm)
The Peregrine falcon, sparrows, swans, condoms and dreams (http://www.hominf.org/proving.htm)
Antimatter (http://www.hominf.org/posi/posiintr.htm)

This is class stuff - enjoy.;)

Yuri

[Soapy Sam]

Antimatter.

Well, it's certainly available in the right sort of quantity.

I knew they were loopy.
Hell, I knew they were quantum loopy.
But I never appreciated the cosmic scale of superstring loopiness till now.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Okay, that's just utterly, stunningly, ****ing nuts. Where's the dark matter preparation?

And why don't they tell us what these preparations are good for? Is it obvious to the right sort of screaming-whacko-woojob?

~~ Paul

[ChristineR]

I made positronium in graduate school. :D It's half life is about 121 nanoseconds. Plus it's not antimatter; it's an unstable molecule of antimatter and matter (an electron and a positron). There was no positronium in their vial, I'm sure.

Antimatter (positrons) is not that hard to come by, you use radioactive sodium chloride. I don't recommend drinking it, or even holding it in your hand while you shake it though. This raises an interesting question though, as the antimatter in question only lasts a few nanoseconds before it annihilates. The NaCl keeps making more as it decays, so that at any given moment you have plenty to work with.

Their vial had no direct contact with the radioactive NaCl, so they were in no danger, assuming the person who set the experiment up was trained in proper handling.

[Civilized Worm]

Surely those are parodies?

[sinclairmcevoy]

Surely those are parodies?
Surely. I wish.

[Michael C]

And why don't they tell us what these preparations are good for? Is it obvious to the right sort of screaming-whacko-woojob?

It's easy: just take one of the substances in undiluted form and see what happens to you. That's the "proving". The symptoms that you experience will be cured by the homeopathic dilution of that same substance, so there's nothing to worry about ;)

[Mojo]

I knew they were loopy.
Hell, I knew they were quantum loopy.


Quantum loopy (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16868363&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum)!

[Rolfe]

It's easy: just take one of the substances in undiluted form and see what happens to you. That's the "proving". The symptoms that you experience will be cured by the homeopathic dilution of that same substance, so there's nothing to worry about ;)No, these pages are describing homoeopathic provings of the substances. Mostly at 30C potency, which is how homoeopathic provings are done, in spite of what the Janet-and-John explanations say.

Mojo, which installment is that? I see even Peter Fisher has stopped publishing the series - I think even he knows when reality has been left behind in this case.

Rolfe.

[Mojo]

Mojo, which installment is that? I see even Peter Fisher has stopped publishing the series - I think even he knows when reality has been left behind in this case.


The 11th, I think: I posted them in an appropriate thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2663791#post2663791) the other day.

For example:

"'Laser-like' action of the homeopathic therapeutic encounter as predicted by a gyroscopic metaphor for the vital force." :boggled:

[Mojo]

BTW, did you see Lionel Milgrom - Quality Homeopathic Debate (http://www.badscience.net/?p=341) over at badscience?

[Michael C]

Here are some more:

Venus (http://www.btinternet.com/~wellmother/venusbase.htm)
A storm (http://uk.geocities.com/veryscarymary/stormremedy1.html)

[Michael C]

I can't resist: here's another one.

Seahorse (http://www.nyhomeopathy.com/seahorsesum.htm)

[Yuri Nalyssus]

BTW, did you see Lionel Milgrom - Quality Homeopathic Debate (http://www.badscience.net/?p=341) over at badscience?Excellent and well balanced article. It's good to see an actual picture of Milgrom after reading so much of his nonsense and trying to imagine the face behind the woo. Those bolts must be quite uncomfortable though.

Yuri

[Yuri Nalyssus]

Here are some more:

Venus (http://www.btinternet.com/~wellmother/venusbase.htm)
A storm (http://uk.geocities.com/veryscarymary/stormremedy1.html)Yah beauty!

Whilst I don't think that the symptoms that can be cured by this remedy will be ones caused by exposure to the light of Venus, it is possible that individuals who have these symptoms are sensitive or susceptible to it.Some individuals are susceptible to the light of Venus?!

Not that surprising really, homoeopathy is heavily influenced by Uranus after all, as I've said to many a homoeopath in the past.

Yuri

[fuelair]

I made positronium in graduate school. :D It's half life is about 121 nanoseconds. Plus it's not antimatter; it's an unstable molecule of antimatter and matter (an electron and a positron). There was no positronium in their vial, I'm sure.

Antimatter (positrons) is not that hard to come by, you use radioactive sodium chloride. I don't recommend drinking it, or even holding it in your hand while you shake it though. This raises an interesting question though, as the antimatter in question only lasts a few nanoseconds before it annihilates. The NaCl keeps making more as it decays, so that at any given moment you have plenty to work with.

Their vial had no direct contact with the radioactive NaCl, so they were in no danger, assuming the person who set the experiment up was trained in proper handling.
Perhaps they are trying to mix one Hydrogen ion in a liter solution with Helium II. Call it Preparation H+ cause it'll climb in your rectum and freeze the s88t out of you!!!

[Eos of the Eons]

I just took a St. John's Ambulance First Aid course at their building in town here. The ex-cop teaching the course said we shouldn't take meds prescribed from the hospital. Instead you should use Arnica to help heal the set broken bones, etc. He encouraged us to self educate via the net.

:boggled:

I'm all for not Oding yourself on pain meds, but sheesh, you know.

[Nancarrow]

The Berlin wall (http://www.biolumanetics.net/tantalus/Cases/BerlinWall.htm)
The Peregrine falcon, sparrows, swans, condoms and dreams (http://www.hominf.org/proving.htm)
Antimatter (http://www.hominf.org/posi/posiintr.htm)

Yuri

Har! Great stuff. I couldn't help noticing that one of the substances being proved in the second link was LSD.

I'd like to get a sample of that. The, er, "weakest" preparation, natch.

[Mobyseven]

Antimatter.

Well, it's certainly available in the right sort of quantity.

I knew they were loopy.
Hell, I knew they were quantum loopy.
But I never appreciated the cosmic scale of superstring loopiness till now.

This is a pure M-Theory no-braner.

[drsabbylewis]

I agree with the fact that there is a lot of stupidity going on in the name of Homoeopathy but I request you all not to get carried away with all this stupidity. I wish to say that there is some substance in this system and it would be advisable not to get carried away just because there are people who are interested in making a fast buck or easy publicity.

[Rolfe]

I wish to say that there is some substance in this system ....


No, there really isn't!

I would caution you against assuming that anyone here is unfamiliar with the homoeopathic literature, or the strengths and weaknesses of its claims. If you intend to try to demonstrate that the remedies have any physiological effect over and above what one would expect of the carrier material, be prepared for some well-informed argument.

Rolfe.

[In My Spare Time]

You guys just reminded me:
I haven't taken my homeopathic remedy in a week!
I'm gonna overdose!
(call a doctor)

[geni]

I agree with the fact that there is a lot of stupidity going on in the name of Homoeopathy but I request you all not to get carried away with all this stupidity. I wish to say that there is some substance in this system and it would be advisable not to get carried away just because there are people who are interested in making a fast buck or easy publicity.

From what I've seen berlin wall has some followers.

These gutys have always appeared to be serious:

http://www.tanasen.com/Forum/default.asp

And are pretty pro non standard homeopathic forumaltions and remedy machines.

[Mojo]

Some more remedies here (http://uk.geocities.com/veryscarymary/remedy-corner.html).

ETA: "Tempesta (http://uk.geocities.com/veryscarymary/stormremedy1.html)" looks pretty good. Check out the testimonials (http://uk.geocities.com/veryscarymary/tempesta.html)!

[Zep]

You guys just reminded me:
I haven't taken my homeopathic remedy in a week!
I'm gonna overdose!
(call a doctor)This has already been done many times, including a few well-published "mass suicides by homeopathic sleeping pill".

Aka: sugar highs.

[drsabbylewis]

No, there really isn't!

I would caution you against assuming that anyone here is unfamiliar with the homoeopathic literature, or the strengths and weaknesses of its claims. If you intend to try to demonstrate that the remedies have any physiological effect over and above what one would expect of the carrier material, be prepared for some well-informed argument.

Rolfe.
I have been reading posts in this forum for some time and I know that you people do have a good knowledge about Homoeopathy . The only thing that I want to say you are clubbing everyone together.Like if someone is just going to prove the Berlin wall it cannot reflect on the entire system.The remedies mentioned above were never heard by me or any of my colleagues and we have been practicing for the past ten years.I understand the scientific approach that you take and I firmly believe that Homoeopathy stands upto it.There certainly are deficiencies but the general philosophy is not something that is illogical.

[Eos of the Eons]

I firmly believe that Homoeopathy stands upto it

How.

[geni]

I have been reading posts in this forum for some time and I know that you people do have a good knowledge about Homoeopathy . The only thing that I want to say you are clubbing everyone together.Like if someone is just going to prove the Berlin wall it cannot reflect on the entire system.The remedies mentioned above were never heard by me or any of my colleagues and we have been practicing for the past ten years.I understand the scientific approach that you take and I firmly believe that Homoeopathy stands upto it.There certainly are deficiencies but the general philosophy is not something that is illogical.

The generaly philosophy of most forms of homeopathy would have not problem with berlin wall as a remedy. It has been through a proveing what more do you want?

[bruto]

I agree with the fact that there is a lot of stupidity going on in the name of Homoeopathy but I request you all not to get carried away with all this stupidity. I wish to say that there is some substance in this system and it would be advisable not to get carried away just because there are people who are interested in making a fast buck or easy publicity.

If there is substance in the system itself, can you tell us what the failings of the homeopathic provings cited here were, in homeopathic terms? What homeopathic principles did they violate? What did they do wrong that is wrong in homeopathy, to disqualify them from being legitimate in the context of homeopathy? If you cannot find a fault in the provings within the contextual rules of homeopathy, I think it's fair to question the substance of the system itself.

[Mojo]

I have been reading posts in this forum for some time and I know that you people do have a good knowledge about Homoeopathy . The only thing that I want to say you are clubbing everyone together.Like if someone is just going to prove the Berlin wall it cannot reflect on the entire system.The remedies mentioned above were never heard by me or any of my colleagues and we have been practicing for the past ten years.I understand the scientific approach that you take and I firmly believe that Homoeopathy stands upto it.There certainly are deficiencies but the general philosophy is not something that is illogical.


Are you suggesting that the remedies mentioned in this thread (e.g. the thunderstorm one) do not actually have the effects claimed?

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

I have been reading posts in this forum for some time and I know that you people do have a good knowledge about Homoeopathy . The only thing that I want to say you are clubbing everyone together.Like if someone is just going to prove the Berlin wall it cannot reflect on the entire system.The remedies mentioned above were never heard by me or any of my colleagues and we have been practicing for the past ten years.I understand the scientific approach that you take and I firmly believe that Homoeopathy stands upto it.There certainly are deficiencies but the general philosophy is not something that is illogical.

I do hope you are not going to be another fly-by-night homeopath who runs at the first sign of a tricky question that highlights the internal inconsistencies in their belief system.

Try answering geni, bruto and Mojo's questions. There are of course plenty more, but start with those.

Over to you.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

No, I can't resist.

drsabbylewis, do airport X-ray scanners inactivate remedies? Yes or no. Give the reasons for your answer.

[Rolfe]

BSM, you are a Bad Person. That's official.

Rolfe.

[Mashuna]

No, I can't resist.

drsabbylewis, do airport X-ray scanners inactivate remedies? Yes or no. Give the reasons for your answer.

What happens if you take a proving from an X-ray, create a remedy from it then take that remedy through an X-ray scanner?

[jsiv]

I can't resist: here's another one.

Seahorse (http://www.nyhomeopathy.com/seahorsesum.htm)


Okay, I can't be bothered to read all the text, so someone please just tell me what ailments seahorses cause.

Like cures like, right?

Thanks.

[steenkh]

Well, perhaps it helps if you are a little hoarse?

[Pipirr]

Male pregnancy?

[Zep]

I would like to see a remedy made on STEAM. I can barely figure out what it might be good for! :boggled:

[drsabbylewis]

The generaly philosophy of most forms of homeopathy would have not problem with berlin wall as a remedy. It has been through a proveing what more do you want?
I read the proving of the berlin wall.To begin with a proving is only a collection of symptoms that are obtained when a specific drug is given to a healthy person,I don't understand how you can get a symptom of Those who suffer from family strife and oppression, often from childhood.This is an opinion of the person who conducted the proving( the practitioner) and not that of the prover(i.e. the person who took the drug.The remaining symptoms listed are also on the same lines. I hardly see a symptom that can qualify as a true symptom.

[drsabbylewis]

Are you suggesting that the remedies mentioned in this thread (e.g. the thunderstorm one) do not actually have the effects claimed?
I really don't see the effects in terms of symptoms.These have come more from the head of the person who has put them on the net

[drsabbylewis]

No, I can't resist.

drsabbylewis, do airport X-ray scanners inactivate remedies? Yes or no. Give the reasons for your answer.
Sir I frankly do not know the effect of these X-rays on homoeopathic medicines

[Mojo]

How would you go about finding out? In these days of international travel and airport security, surely this is an important matter?

[Mojo]

I really don't see the effects in terms of symptoms.These have come more from the head of the person who has put them on the net


So you don't think these are actual proving symptoms? Perhaps you could take that up with her over at otherhealth, where she's currently complaining (http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?t=8986) about this forum attacking homoeopathy, and about "negative opinions" of homoeopathy generally. I doubt that she'd take much notice of anything said by a "skeptic".

[shpalman]

A question I tried to ask her, before she left the badscience.net forums (http://badscience.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2746) was: at what point in the history of homeopathy did people start proving with homeopathic doses?

[drsabbylewis]

How would you go about finding out? In these days of international travel and airport security, surely this is an important matter?
I have no intention of finding out in the near future.The medicines that I use in my clinic are manufactured locally and do not pass thru any X-ray scanner.I may think about it at some time when it becomes significant.

[drsabbylewis]

So you don't think these are actual proving symptoms? Perhaps you could take that up with her over at otherhealth, where she's currently about this forum attacking homoeopathy, and about "negative opinions" of homoeopathy generally. I doubt that she'd take much notice of anything said by a "skeptic".
I intend to do that

[drsabbylewis]

A question I tried to ask her, before she left the badscience.net forums[/url] was: at what point in the history of homeopathy did people start proving with homeopathic doses?
I do not know exactly at what point he took to proving with dilutions but I have the fifth and the sixth edition of the Organon. In the fifth edition he advises the initiation of the proving at the thirtieth dilution and gradually reducing the dilutions till the appearance of symptoms.Secondly I wish to say that the term Homoeopathic dose means a medicine chosen which is similar to that of the disease, it does not mean a dilution which probably you are suggesting

[steenkh]

I have no intention of finding out in the near future.The medicines that I use in my clinic are manufactured locally and do not pass thru any X-ray scanner.I may think about it at some time when it becomes significant.
OK, so none of your patients take their remedies with them through airport x-ray scanners. But I am sure you accept that this happens, and that it is important for the patients to know if their remedies are invalidated.

How do you think this could be tested?

[drsabbylewis]

I think we were discussing provings how did this topic change suddenly .Regarding the X-ray part I have frankly not given much thought to it as it hardly affects me .Hardly four or five patients travel by air every year and these patients are always advised to consult a local physician in case they fall sick, so at this moment it is hardly of much importance.

[steenkh]

Actually, we were discussing our favourite homoeopathic remedies. And we are concerned if they would stop working if put through a scanner.

Now, the question for you - as the resident homoeopath of this thread - is how would homoeopaths go about testing this? It is not important if your own patients do not travel by air; it is an important question for homoeopaths in general because lots and lots of homoeopath patients travel by air in the developed world. Some homoeopaths claim that X-ray scanners destroy the remedy, and other claim that there is no effect on the remedy. How come that homoeopath researchers have not performed any test to see what is right? Surely, homoeopaths do perform research, hmm?

[shpalman]

I do not know exactly at what point he took to proving with dilutions but I have the fifth and the sixth edition of the Organon. In the fifth edition he advises the initiation of the proving at the thirtieth dilution and gradually reducing the dilutions till the appearance of symptoms.Secondly I wish to say that the term Homoeopathic dose means a medicine chosen which is similar to that of the disease, it does not mean a dilution which probably you are suggesting

Sorry, I wished to find an economical way to say "a dose of substance diluted well past the Avogadro limit such as is commonly used in homeopathic therapy."

Thanks for your reply.

[elevatedsteve]

I would like to see a remedy made on STEAM. I can barely figure out what it might be good for! :boggled:

burns?

[Retrograde]

One classified black, male, sea horse, from the Indian Ocean, was sent to Michael Quinn at Hahnemann Pharmacy to be potentized.

Whatever that means, it doesn't sound good for the seahorse. Does PETA know about this?

Historically, I believe there were valid reasons for taking homeopathic cures: since they were essentially just water, at least they weren't going to actively harm you, as opposed to the then mainstream medicines. Mercury, anyone?

[drsabbylewis]

Actually, we were discussing our favourite homoeopathic remedies. And we are concerned if they would stop working if put through a scanner.

Now, the question for you - as the resident homoeopath of this thread - is how would homoeopaths go about testing this? It is not important if your own patients do not travel by air; it is an important question for homoeopaths in general because lots and lots of homoeopath patients travel by air in the developed world. Some homoeopaths claim that X-ray scanners destroy the remedy, and other claim that there is no effect on the remedy. How come that homoeopath researchers have not performed any test to see what is right? Surely, homoeopaths do perform research, hmm?

Well the easiest way to test such a thing would be to conduct a proving of that substance before and after passing through a scanner

[Blue Wode]

Welcome back, Drsabbylewis. In My Spare Time has a question for you which you can find here:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=89373&highlight=drsabbylewis

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

I have no intention of finding out in the near future.The medicines that I use in my clinic are manufactured locally and do not pass thru any X-ray scanner.I may think about it at some time when it becomes significant.

I find your closed-mindedness and blithe disregard of such a potential problem to be quite disconcerting.

Let's posit a parallel diaglogue with a proper doctor.

"Doctor, I've been told that airport Xray scanners will inactivate my insulin"

"I only work with diabetic patients who don't travel. Also I really don't care whether such a thing happens. Why should I be bothered if it does and some dumb-schmuck of a patient goes into a coma because we doctors can't be bothered to find out whether this happens or not. Now kindly leave my office I do not wish to be disturbed by awkward questions"

I think any citizen having such a conversation reported to them would rightly be outraged.

But that's the joy of homeopathy. You can earn a living free from any obligation to show that your sugar and water do what they are supposed to do. It really is a quite excellent scam.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

p.s. Isn't it amazing what a deeply incurious bunch homeopaths turn out to be given their self-proclaimed status as iconoclasts and free-thinkers.

In truth I have never met a more dogmatic and narrow-minded group of people outside the world of religious fundamentalism. Which, demands, yet again the obvious inference that homeopathy really is nothing more than an incoherent and wilfully blinkered form of religion.

[steenkh]

Well the easiest way to test such a thing would be to conduct a proving of that substance before and after passing through a scanner
Excellent!

Why do you think that this simple test has not been performed long ago?

[drsabbylewis]

I find your closed-mindedness and blithe disregard of such a potential problem to be quite disconcerting.

Let's posit a parallel diaglogue with a proper doctor.

"Doctor, I've been told that airport Xray scanners will inactivate my insulin"

"I only work with diabetic patients who don't travel. Also I really don't care whether such a thing happens. Why should I be bothered if it does and some dumb-schmuck of a patient goes into a coma because we doctors can't be bothered to find out whether this happens or not. Now kindly leave my office I do not wish to be disturbed by awkward questions"

I think any citizen having such a conversation reported to them would rightly be outraged.

But that's the joy of homeopathy. You can earn a living free from any obligation to show that your sugar and water do what they are supposed to do. It really is a quite excellent scam.
You are exaggerating this, all that I said was that air travel is not frequently used in our country. It is mostly used only when a person is traveling out of the country.Such trips are for long durations and the patient always has to be advised to consult a local physician in case of ill-health, so the question of any of my patient asking this question in the near future is pretty remote.I assure you by the time this question becomes significant to me I will surely have the answer to it,till that time I do not wish to give an answer about which I am not sure.To tell you frankly I became aware of this issue only when you asked me about it and frankly I thank you for it.

[drsabbylewis]

Excellent!

Why do you think that this simple test has not been performed long ago?
I do not know why this was not done but from our side the only thing that I can say is that the resources available to us are limited and the type and scale of research that the allopaths can take up will be impossible for us to duplicate and therefore at least our group in Mumbai would intend to take up research that would be more relevant to us.

[Macoy]

I do not know why this was not done but from our side the only thing that I can say is that the resources available to us are limited and the type and scale of research that the allopaths can take up will be impossible for us to duplicate and therefore at least our group in Mumbai would intend to take up research that would be more relevant to us.

Does the government of Mumbai support homeopathy?

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

You are exaggerating this, all that I said was that air travel is not frequently used in our country. It is mostly used only when a person is traveling out of the country.Such trips are for long durations and the patient always has to be advised to consult a local physician in case of ill-health, so the question of any of my patient asking this question in the near future is pretty remote.I assure you by the time this question becomes significant to me I will surely have the answer to it,till that time I do not wish to give an answer about which I am not sure.To tell you frankly I became aware of this issue only when you asked me about it and frankly I thank you for it.

And yet we are often invited of share in horror at conventional medicine's allegedly poor handling of small risks posed by its drugs.

Like all other homeopaths I have met, you seem to lack either the intellectual tools or the basic curiosity to see that there is a problem and also to see that there is a very simple solution.

[bruto]

Does the government of Mumbai support homeopathy?

Mumbai is what we call Bombay in India, is it not? I think homeopathy is pretty well established in India and enjoys some government support.

[Macoy]

Mumbai is what we call Bombay in India, is it not? I think homeopathy is pretty well established in India and enjoys some government support.

You're quite right. I became confused with Myanmar, whose government policies towards homeopathy I suddenly became curious about, knowing little of their antics.

[drsabbylewis]

sorry a mistake

[drsabbylewis]

And yet we are often invited of share in horror at conventional medicine's allegedly poor handling of small risks posed by its drugs.

Like all other homeopaths I have met, you seem to lack either the intellectual tools or the basic curiosity to see that there is a problem and also to see that there is a very simple solution.

is this the only reason why you think homoeopathy does not work.

[drsabbylewis]

Does the government of Mumbai support homeopathy?

Mumbai is erstwhile Bombay and there is no government funding

[Rolfe]

Presuming for a moment to speak for Badly Shaved Monkey, no.

Rolfe.

[shpalman]

is this the only reason why you think homoeopathy does not work.

I know that homeopathy doesn't work because of everything I know about physics, chemistry, biology and medicine. (I've also tried it, and it didn't work).

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

is this the only reason why you think homoeopathy does not work.

As Rolfe has just said, "No". To which I might add, "Don't be silly".

The lack of engagement with the evident problems of homeopathy by homeopaths is just one more depressing feature of the whole charade.

Let's give you another chance:-

Why do you think some homeopaths think it is OK to put their remedies through X-ray scanners yet others are adamant that this must not be done?

[JJM]

{snip} Why do you think some homeopaths think it is OK to put their remedies through X-ray scanners yet others are adamant that this must not be done?Presuming for a moment to speak for sabbylewis, because when you are selling nonsense- it's all good.

[drsabbylewis]

As Rolfe has just said, "No". To which I might add, "Don't be silly".

The lack of engagement with the evident problems of homeopathy by homeopaths is just one more depressing feature of the whole charade.

Let's give you another chance:-

Why do you think some homeopaths think it is OK to put their remedies through X-ray scanners yet others are adamant that this must not be done?

Actually you have been continuously asking me about an issue which as of now does not have much significance in my country.Homoeopaths in my country do not have to advise about air travel because it is that rarely used.I agree this issue may be important in your country but the onus lies at the moment on Homoeopaths from your country to find these answers.I have already promised you an accurate answer in the near future.If Homoeopaths in your country have not shown the inclination to find out the truth about something that is really significant to them then it would be a failure on their part and not of Homoeopathy as a system.

[JJM]

Actually you have been continuously asking me about an issue which as of now does not have much significance in my country...You have been continuously dodging a very simple question. Countries don't matter, much, these days- you are using the "World" Wide Web. What would you tell a customer who asks this question- you are not interested? How long would it take you to come up with an answer? In the USA dotors don't say "I am sorry; but we don't see enough malaria (cholera, whatever) to help you."

You are an unartful dodger.

[Rasmus]

Actually you have been continuously asking me about an issue which as of now does not have much significance in my country.

You are a disgrace tro the medical profession just for that alone.

Homoeopaths in my country do not have to advise about air travel because it is that rarely used.

But surely not "never", right?

So, what will you do if one of your patients ever asks you that same question? You can whine all you want here about not needing to know, but that won't help you if a patient of you ever asks.

Suggesting that a patient consult a local doctor doesn't cut it, either. If a doctor elsewhere tells me to take medication X, I will not always have to buy new supplies. Especially not if I was already being treated before I started a journey!

Since I do ocasionally fly - does anyone here know if it is a common problems with real medication?

[Mojo]

Why do you think some homeopaths think it is OK to put their remedies through X-ray scanners yet others are adamant that this must not be done?Actually you have been continuously asking me about an issue which as of now does not have much significance in my country.Homoeopaths in my country do not have to advise about air travel because it is that rarely used.I agree this issue may be important in your country but the onus lies at the moment on Homoeopaths from your country to find these answers.I have already promised you an accurate answer in the near future.If Homoeopaths in your country have not shown the inclination to find out the truth about something that is really significant to them then it would be a failure on their part and not of Homoeopathy as a system.


The question isn't whether or not the remedies are inactivated by the scanners. The question is: why is there disagreement between homoeopaths about this? If the remedies have any detectable effect, it should be perfectly simple to test whether the effect is still present after they've been through a scanner. Why have homoeopaths been unable to resolve this one way or the other?

[bruto]

The question isn't whether or not the remedies are inactivated by the scanners. The question is: why is there disagreement between homoeopaths about this? If the remedies have any detectable effect, it should be perfectly simple to test whether the effect is still present after they've been through a scanner. Why have homoeopaths been unable to resolve this one way or the other?
The sample is too large and needs to be diluted before it is powerful enough to provide certainty. When they achieve zero instances of remedies going through scanners then they'll be able to provide a definitive answer.

[Deetee]

An interesting twist on this problem is the discovery that there is such a remedy as "X-ray", - a homeopathic preparation made by exposing water/alcohol to X-rays.

Surely this remedy inactivates itself?

[Ivor the Engineer]

An interesting twist on this problem is the discovery that there is such a remedy as "X-ray", - a homeopathic preparation made by exposing water/alcohol to X-rays.

Surely this remedy inactivates itself?

What's 'x-ray' supposed to treat? anorexia?

[Deetee]

What's 'x-ray' supposed to treat? anorexia?
Lewd dreams (http://abchomeopathy.com/r.php/x-r), apparently.

[Ivor the Engineer]

Mine was better.

I wonder how they did the proving?

[drsabbylewis]

You have been continuously dodging a very simple question. Countries don't matter, much, these days- you are using the "World" Wide Web. What would you tell a customer who asks this question- you are not interested? How long would it take you to come up with an answer? In the USA dotors don't say "I am sorry; but we don't see enough malaria (cholera, whatever) to help you."

You are an unartful dodger.

I have never tried to dodge this question .Right in the beginning i have said that I do not know the accurate answer to this question.As far as I know till date no major studies have been done on this issue.In the meantime if I do recieve a patient with this question I will ask him not to let the medicines pass through a scanner or not to rely on medicines passed through a scanner as the probability of their being deactivated is pretty high.Regarding the time limit for an answer to this question I would put it at around 3 years.

[drsabbylewis]

The question isn't whether or not the remedies are inactivated by the scanners. The question is: why is there disagreement between homoeopaths about this? If the remedies have any detectable effect, it should be perfectly simple to test whether the effect is still present after they've been through a scanner. Why have homoeopaths been unable to resolve this one way or the other?

The disagreement has been because of the slower pace of studies which in turn has ben due to a lack of funds.Most studies to date have been carried out with the personal funds of the physicians themselves and as such research has been more concentrated on matters which had more significance in practice ,the other less significant issues had to be postponed till more funds are available.I also do not think that disagreement is bad for any Science topics need to be debated and opposition should continue till the matter is properly solved.

[Mojo]

The disagreement has been because of the slower pace of studies which in turn has ben due to a lack of funds.Most studies to date have been carried out with the personal funds of the physicians themselves and as such research has been more concentrated on matters which had more significance in practice ,the other less significant issues had to be postponed till more funds are available.


Given, for example, the sort of proving symptoms that homoeopaths claim to observe, it should be a really simple test to run. And there seemed to be no shortage of funds when, for example, a group in Bristol wanted to run a 6-year outpatient study which had no control group and therefore was not capable of producing results that were useful other than as propaganda. So much for research being "more concentrated on matters which had more significance in practice".

[Mojo]

Most studies to date have been carried out with the personal funds of the physicians themselves and as such research has been more concentrated on matters which had more significance in practice ,the other less significant issues had to be postponed till more funds are available.

What could have "more significance in practice" than whether or not the remedies work?

[Mojo]

As far as I know till date no major studies have been done on this issue.


What about minor studies? Can you give us references to any studies at all?

[shpalman]

... if I do receive a patient with this question I will ask him not to let the medicines pass through a scanner or not to rely on medicines passed through a scanner as the probability of their being deactivated is pretty high.

So it is better if the patient passes the medicine through the magnetic scanner instead of the x-ray scanner at the airport?

[bruto]

I have never tried to dodge this question .Right in the beginning i have said that I do not know the accurate answer to this question.As far as I know till date no major studies have been done on this issue.In the meantime if I do recieve a patient with this question I will ask him not to let the medicines pass through a scanner or not to rely on medicines passed through a scanner as the probability of their being deactivated is pretty high.Regarding the time limit for an answer to this question I would put it at around 3 years.

Why do you say that the probability is high, though, if the answer is so recondite that it will take three years to test it? Sorry if my question seems obtuse, but why can't you just test this idea, at least to your own satisfaction, if not to that of the rest of the scientific world? The only reason I can think that this would be a difficult matter to address is if the difference between effectiveness and ineffectiveness in homeopathy is itself impossible to measure honestly. If that is not the case, then a borrowed X ray machine (perhaps a cooperative chiropracter could be enlisted) and a handful of homeopathic headache remedies ought to give you your answer in whatever time it takes to find and treat a handful of patients with headaches.

[Rolfe]

So it is better if the patient passes the medicine through the magnetic scanner instead of the x-ray scanner at the airport?


Ouch! Wish I'd thought of that one!

Why will the "in all probability" be inactivated? On what evidence was that statement based?

How do you distinguish an active from an inactivated remedy?

Rolfe.

[shpalman]

It seems like Cyril W. Smith thinks that something maybe a bit like proton NMR is going on:

My criticism of homeopathic trials in general is that there is no quality control. In a box of double-blinded vials of verum and placebo, the placebo will be potentized by proximity or by impact; if placed in a steel cupboard or filing cabinet, everything will be erased—all will become placebos. A homeopathic potency needs the presence of the Earth’s magnetic field for permanence.

So it seems like remedies are safer going through the x-ray machine than they are going through the magnetic scanner.

http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2007.0585
http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/107555304322848977

(blog (http://shpalman.livejournal.com/5801.html))

[Rolfe]

My criticism of homeopathic trials in general is that there is no quality control. In a box of double-blinded vials of verum and placebo, the placebo will be potentized by proximity or by impact; if placed in a steel cupboard or filing cabinet, everything will be erased—all will become placebos. A homeopathic potency needs the presence of the Earth’s magnetic field for permanence.


Wow. Just.... wow.

I don't suppose there's any way at all of asking this guy what basis he has for any of these statements?

Rolfe.

[MRC_Hans]

I think we should appreciate the polite tone of drsabbylewis, and not keep pounding on some particular line which has been answered repeatedly, even if we find the answer to be unsatisfactory. Drsabbylewis has admitted to not knowing whether remedies are hurt by x-rays or not, and to not knowing why this is not known to the homeopathic community. Whether we find this lack of knowledge lamentable or not, it is what it is, and there is no reason to keep whipping a lifeless horse.

Instead, why don't we invite drsabbylewis to elaborate on how he/she finds homeopathy to "have some substance", as indicated in his/her first post in this thread.

Then we might have some fruitful discussions about that "substance".

Hans

[steenkh]

Drsabbylewis,

shpalman has bought us the startling news that according to some homoeopaths, "a homeopathic potency needs the presence of the Earth’s magnetic field for permanence", and that homoeopathic remedies "if placed in a steel cupboard or filing cabinet, everything will be erased—all will become placebos."

Surely this is must be an issue in your country, too: Steel cabinets may not be be common, but homoeopaths must regard it as crucial to determine if a steel cabinet or a steel countainer ruins all their remedies.

Do you think that homoeopaths will investigate this claim, and how do you propose it can be tested if the claim is true?

[MRC_Hans]

Wow. Just.... wow.

I don't suppose there's any way at all of asking this guy what basis he has for any of these statements?

Rolfe.What makes you think he has any basis for them? ;)

Evidently, they are just something he dreamed up to explain why homeopathy cannot be tested in a controlled test.

... At least his explanation is quite concrete (if nonsensical), unlike certain others I have discussed this subject with.:p

Hans