Monothesist predudice on CNN.

[Orangutan]

CNN Showed a clip of a man in china where he had a very lucky escape after being knocked of his bicycle and dragged under a bus which is skidding on wet pavement and jack-knifing as its breaking hard to avoid him. At the end of the clip he pops out from under the buss apparently no worse for wear.

After the clip the news anchor says "Someone must have been looking out for him!" I just thought that this was a bit presumptuous. Given that he lives in china He is more likely to think, "Wow, I must have been really good in a past life!"

Of course I can no better determine the mans religion any better than the newscaster. It just seemed wrong to credit this mans delivery from under the bus as an act of God. Hmm In fact as a non-Christian isn't it more likely that Jesus threw the bus at him?

In an unrelated event, someone said that some fact should not be taken as gospel, and I thought, "Completely Fabricated?", which I think is the opposite of what the person intended.
;)

[grayman]

My wife had an industrial accident at work in February 2006. After nearly severing three fingers from her hand, her fingers were repaired by an excellent surgeon at the regional hospital. She has had a few minor surgeries since, and still has therapy.

The response from a friend when told that science and medicine saved my wife's hand: "Someone was looking out for her." :mgduh

If so, why didn't that someone pull her hand out before the machine crushed it?

Another two friends were involved in a motorcycle accident when a wind gust knocked one over and the other went down trying to avoid the first. As the second was laying there busted up (but not as bad as the first), a third rider made the comment, "your angel was protecting you because it should have been worse." :mgbanghead

Why didn't this "angel" stop the gust in the first place?

sigh.

[hgc]

The response from a friend when told that science and medicine saved my wife's hand: "Someone was looking out for her." :mgduh


Perhaps someone was: Asclepius - Greed god of medicine.

[Lisa Simpson]

Perhaps someone was: Asclepius - Greed god of medicine.

How very Greek and male god-centric. What about the Norse goddess of medicine?
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eir)

[ImaginalDisc]

Maybe it was Hiisi (http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/finnish-mythology.php?deity=HIISI) throwing a hissy-fit.

[Yiab]

After the clip the news anchor says "Someone must have been looking out for him!" I just thought that this was a bit presumptuous. Given that he lives in china He is more likely to think, "Wow, I must have been really good in a past life!"

As far as I know, this is just another one of the misinterpretations of the Hindu term "karma" so often found these days. Besides, in China he is most likely to believe that someone was looking out for him, just that the "someone" was a revered ancestor rather than a deity (Confucianism being one of the three entwined religions making up majority Chinese religious belief - before communism, anyway).

[PixyMisa]

Why didn't this "angel" stop the gust in the first place?
Angels can be right bastards sometimes.

[MelBrooksfan]

Angels can be right bastards sometimes.

Especially that Angel of Death character.

[tsg]

This really annoys me. Warning: lengthy story ahead.

When my daughter was born, she had meconium aspiration syndrome. For anyone who's not had the joy *cough* of changing a baby's first diaper, meconium is a baby's first bowel movement and it is very sticky with the consistency of tar. One of the dangers of overdue babies is that they will have their first bowel movement in the womb and aspirate it. This is what happened to my daughter. In very severe cases the baby will die. My daughter's was severe. Just after she was born, it was immediately obvious there was something wrong. Her breathing was very labored and she had a bluish tint to her skin. She was our second child so I knew this wasn't normal.

After about twenty minutes of attempting to clear her lungs in the delivery room, she was whisked away and put on a ventilator. Half an hour later I was permitted to go see her and she had all kinds of machinery connected to her monitoring things like her saturated oxygen levels. Every 30 seconds or so, someone would have to push a button to turn off the alarm that said, in no uncertain terms, something is really wrong. I am not a doctor, but I know that saturated oxygen levels below 60% are not a good thing. After about three hours, it was evident that she needed more care than the hospital we were in could provide and she was going to be transported to another hospital about twenty miles away that had a neo-natal intensive care unit. My wife, still recovering from child birth, stayed where she was and I drove to the other hospital. An ambulance ride (with police escort) later, and my daughter was receiving a nitric oxide treatment that was meant to dilate the blood vessels in her lungs and increase the oxygen flow to her blood stream. I sat in the NICU watching her, unable to even touch her because it would make her move and burn precious oxygen, all the while listening to the respirator pulsing away and the machines that go bing binging noisily.

Another couple of hours later and she wasn't getting any better. She was going to need ECMO (essentially a heart-lung bypass machine) that was only available in a hospital about two hours away. I was told that 1/3 of the babies who go through this don't survive, another 1/3 have problems like hearing loss or blindness and developmental issues, and the remaining 1/3 survive with no problems. There was also the possibility that she wouldn't survive the trip. If she didn't go, she would certainly die.

By the time the transport team arrived, it was three in the morning, I hadn't eaten in over 24 hours (I don't eat breakfast, I got the "it's time" call just as my lunch arrived, and I was too upset to eat afterwards), and made the decision not to make the drive to the new hospital because I, surprisingly rationally given the circumstances, determined that dying on the way wouldn't help her or my wife and I wouldn't be able to do anything once I got there. I said goodbye to my daughter, not knowing if I would ever see her again, and went home.

I spent the next few hours trying in vain to get some sleep, crying, and cursing. At 6 am I got the call from the doctor on the transport that she had gotten there safely, was out of surgery and on ECMO. Her chances of surviving had increased dramatically. She was getting oxygen and now had time to let her lungs heal. There was still the possibility of brain damage due to the reduced oxygen levels. We wouldn't know how much, if any, for a long time, possibly years.

She spent 10 days on ECMO, another 10 on a ventilator, was transported back to the second hospital NICU closer to home and spent another 20 days there. 40 days after she was born, she finally came home.

She is two years old now and has no problems whatsoever. Every couple of months she has to go see a team developmental psychologists who specialize in ECMO babies. Every time she goes, she amazes them with how well she is progressing, to the point that they want her to be in a promotional video for the hospital. She is not only ahead of children who go through this, but she's ahead of normal children as well. Except for the scar on her neck and the lack of a pulse in her right carotid artery, she came through unscathed and is happy and healthy to this day.

Now, I am an atheist, always have been, and am pretty open about it. Every time I tell this story at least one of two things invariably happens. People who know I'm an atheist ask me if I prayed. I can answer, honestly, no, I didn't. The nursing supervisor at the second hospital asked me if I wanted her to get the chaplain "just in case". I said as calmly as I could "that won't be necessary". She looked absolutely flabbergasted and said "are you sure? Because.. " "No." I said with a look that must have conveyed my utter distaste for even being asked because she let it go. So, no, I didn't pray. But I will say this: I did believe in god long enough to call him a right bloody bastard for doing this to an hours old child, my wife, and me.

The second thing that invariably happens is that the person patiently listening says, "it truly is a miracle." Bull****. The doctors and nurses at all three hospitals, the ambulance drivers and transport teams, and the police who escorted them saved my daughter. Science was responsible for her survival. God, if anything, was responsible for making it necessary. If it was a miracle, I never would have known because he could have (and should have if he is the loving caring god they want me to believe in) prevented the whole thing in the first place. Science saved her. God tried to kill her.

If I do have a guardian angel, he was asleep at the switch when I really needed him. Miracle, my ass.

And I absolutely dare, f***ing dare anyone to tell me this is god's way of making his presence known to me. Any god that would do that to a child and her parents to satisfy his ego can kiss my ass, and I will tell him so to his face.

[ImaginalDisc]

This really annoys me. Warning: lengthy story ahead.


Nominated.

[grayman]

Second the nomination.

[tsg]

I am honored. I'm not sure I deserve it, but thank you all the same.

[slyjoe]

Thirded. That sounds like much more than anything I have ever been through.

[chipmunk stew]

This really annoys me. Warning: lengthy story ahead.
Wow. Incredible story. I love hearing stories like this because my company makes NICU medical devices, but during my daily work routine I don't often reflect on the fact that what we do is translate medical research into tools that help skilled, caring professionals work "miracles". I'm happy to hear that your daughter is doing so well. Two is a great age!

[tsg]

Wow. Incredible story. I love hearing stories like this because my company makes NICU medical devices, but during my daily work routine I don't often reflect on the fact that what we do is translate medical research into tools that help skilled, caring professionals work "miracles".

It's funny you should mention that, because right after I posted it, I was thinking of the many, many, many other people who had a hand in saving my daughter's life including the people who made the plastic tubing that carried her blood to the machine and back, etc. I started thinking, "okay, how far can I go to credit people with helping? Do I include everyone who helped build the hospital? The people who built the ambulances? Of course I have to count the teachers who instructed the doctors and nurses..." But the really important conclusion I came to was that even the guys who laid the floor tile in the hospital corridors had much, much more to do with my daughter's recovery than god did.

I'm happy to hear that your daughter is doing so well. Two is a great age!

Thank you. Sincerely.

[ponderingturtle]

This really annoys me. Warning: lengthy story ahead.


This is exactly the kind of thing I think about when ever anyone talks about how child birth is natural and should not be done in some foreign hospital setting but in the home.

Was your wifes pregnancy in any particular risk groups if you don't mind me asking?

[tsg]

This is exactly the kind of thing I think about when ever anyone talks about how child birth is natural and should not be done in some foreign hospital setting but in the home.

Was your wifes pregnancy in any particular risk groups if you don't mind me asking?

Other than her age (just barely), no. MAS is one of these freak accident type things. There were no complications, or even anything to be overly concerned about, during pregnancy or child birth. It would have been little different from the doctor dropping her. And she was only a week and a half late.

I have heard statistics, though I can't (and don't) vouch for their accuracy, that complications from child birth would result in deaths 1 out of 8 times if not for the hospital's facilities.

[ponderingturtle]

Other than her age (just barely), no. MAS is one of these freak accident type things. There were no complications, or even anything to be overly concerned about, during pregnancy or child birth. It would have been little different from the doctor dropping her. And she was only a week and a half late.

I have heard statistics, though I can't (and don't) vouch for their accuracy, that complications from child birth would result in deaths 1 out of 8 times if not for the hospital's facilities.

That does not seem to unlikely, or at least medical intervention commonly done in hospitals. Certainly the death rates are not that high for home births, but I just can't see why parents would accept a real risk to their child if they did not have to, so what if it is only one in say a few hundred?

[Hokulele]

I become even more thankful for hospitals, science, and medicine when contemplating the past mortality rate for mothers as well.

[tsg]

That does not seem to unlikely, or at least medical intervention commonly done in hospitals. Certainly the death rates are not that high for home births, but I just can't see why parents would accept a real risk to their child if they did not have to, so what if it is only one in say a few hundred?

There are quite a few things that can go wrong in childbirth, and I don't see any real benefit (except, possibly, cost) in avoiding giving birth in a hospital.

[ponderingturtle]

I become even more thankful for hospitals, science, and medicine when contemplating the past mortality rate for mothers as well.

I am less concerned for the mothers risks in home births, because it is a risk she is capable of understanding and accepting, like those who practice extreme sports. Extreme sports with infants on the other hand are a very different issue.

[Tanstaafl]

My son and I became fans of the motorcycle drag racer Reggie Showers a few years ago. He was a great racer, and gave great interviews as well, which is very important to sponsors these days. The interesting thing about Reggie is that he's a double amputee. And the best part was how during an interview after winning an NHRA National event, his usual "I'd like to thank" spiel took a left turn right about the time most racers would be thanking god. Instead he spent a couple of minutes thanking all of the doctors, nurses, medical researchers and prosthesis manufacturers (you know, the people who really made it possible for him to not only walk, but win motorcycle races) instead of the typical theological drivel about how god made it all possible.

He won us over right then. Too bad for us he has at least temporarily given up driving, but since his new job title is Motivational Speaker, I suppose maybe it's just as well.

[Kim]

I nominated tsg for his story but being a newbie...I think I posted it in the wrong place. Now I can't even find it!!! Sighhhh....
I completely understand your feelings, tsg...when my daughter was born sick, it was a shock to learn that bad things CAN happen to children. That's when I began my disbelieving. 21 years later...I'm happy with my decision to be free from the guilt of not believing. I feel happy, free and secure instead of worrying about sinning and Hell. I know I'm still a good person. I have morals and treat people the way I want to be treated. I think George Carlin's take on the 10 commandments are hysterical!!! And accurate.

Kim

[eir_de_scania]

Lisa Simpson
Originally Posted by hgc View Post
Perhaps someone was: Asclepius - Greed god of medicine.
How very Greek and male god-centric. What about the Norse goddess of medicine?
Exactly, Lisa!

tsg, thank you for sharing your story! I was blinking away tears when I read it all ended well. I might be a hardened nurse but I am a softie deep inside.:p

[BillyJoe]

tsg,

Well, it was an interesting story and, like the others, I thank you for sharing it with us. However, I think you have to make up your mind if god exists or not. You cannot have it both ways. You can't say you don't believe in god and then curse him for being such a cruel sadistic bastard.
Glad to hear, though, that you daughter turned out fine.

regards,
BillyJoe

[tsg]

tsg,

Well, it was an interesting story and, like the others, I thank you for sharing it with us.

Thank you.

However, I think you have to make up your mind if god exists or not. You cannot have it both ways. You can't say you don't believe in god and then curse him for being such a cruel sadistic bastard.

I believe my exact words were "If you exist, you're a sick f***."

They say even the most hardened atheist will turn to god in times of duress, "just in case". Well, "just in case" god is real, I wanted him to know what I thought of him, but I never really believed. Before my daughter was born, as is the case now, I have no doubt there is no god.

Glad to hear, though, that you daughter turned out fine.

Thank you.

[tsg]

I nominated tsg for his story but being a newbie...I think I posted it in the wrong place. Now I can't even find it!!! Sighhhh....
I completely understand your feelings, tsg...when my daughter was born sick, it was a shock to learn that bad things CAN happen to children. That's when I began my disbelieving. 21 years later...I'm happy with my decision to be free from the guilt of not believing. I feel happy, free and secure instead of worrying about sinning and Hell. I know I'm still a good person. I have morals and treat people the way I want to be treated. I think George Carlin's take on the 10 commandments are hysterical!!! And accurate.

Kim

Your post went here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2678939#post2678939). When you nominate a post it goes to the Language Award Nominations thread.

And thank you, both for the nomination and the kind words.

[BillyJoe]

I believe my exact words were "If you exist, you're a sick f***."


Hmmm...I can't find that quote anywhere. :confused:
Anyway, it sounded like you were equivocating even though, it seems, you did't mean to be doing so:

I did believe in god long enough to call him a right bloody bastard for doing this to an hours old child, my wife, and me.
God, if anything, was responsible for making it necessary.
If it was a miracle, I never would have known because he could have...prevented the whole thing in the first place. Science saved her. God tried to kill her.


I suppose it's a bit frustrating not believing in god but really feeling you would like to kick the boots into him if only he did exist. :D

They say even the most hardened atheist will turn to god in times of duress, "just in case". Well, "just in case" god is real, I wanted him to know what I thought of him, but I never really believed. Before my daughter was born, as is the case now, I have no doubt there is no god.


I understand completely. :)

[tsg]

Hmmm...I can't find that quote anywhere.

What I meant was "my exact words at the time". But I have a feeling you are taking my metaphor a little too literally. I wasn't actually standing in the parking lot shouting "you sick f***" at the sky. My thoughts of god's character, if he existed at all, were in response to being accosted by a nurse who couldn't possibly understand why I would risk damning my daughter to hell for eternity for the crime of not having some guy in a funny suit with his shirt on backwards wave his arms around and splash her with water while speaking funny words. I often wonder what her response would have been if I had suggested getting the clown from the children's wing to squirt her with a seltzer bottle while singing "Mary had a little lamb" and doing the Chicken Dance instead.

I never really considered that god might be real, but "believed long enough to call him a right bloody bastard" makes the point how angry I was and, despite my desperation, never resorted to prayer "just in case".

[Kim]

tsg...
I completely understand what you were saying. The fact that your daughter was sick, dying in a hospital within hours of her birth, just CONFIRMED your belief that there is no God. I took your post to mean that you had proof. I have had the same feelings. A few months ago, a man I had never seen before, turned to me and said "You do know you can't get into heaven if you haven't been saved". I just stared at him blankly and ingored him because if he's that crazy to say something like that to a stranger, I didn't want to provoke him! But in my head I was thinking...if this guy is going to heaven, I'll take the next exit!!!!!

[tsg]

tsg...
I completely understand what you were saying. The fact that your daughter was sick, dying in a hospital within hours of her birth, just CONFIRMED your belief that there is no God. I took your post to mean that you had proof. I have had the same feelings. A few months ago, a man I had never seen before, turned to me and said "You do know you can't get into heaven if you haven't been saved". I just stared at him blankly and ingored him because if he's that crazy to say something like that to a stranger, I didn't want to provoke him! But in my head I was thinking...if this guy is going to heaven, I'll take the next exit!!!!!

I don't normally watch the show, but there was a great line on "The War At Home" last night. Evidently the older son had been visiting with a terminally ill patient. Upon leaving, he said, "Well, I'll see you later".

She said, "I don't think so."

He said, "Sure I will, in heaven."

She shakes her head and says, "No, you haven't accepted Jesus Christ as your savior, so you're going to hell."

He replies, "Then I'll see you there."

[Kim]

I can remember when I was about 12 yrs old, I overheard someone saying they thought life on earth was Hell and dying and becoming nothing is Heaven. I thought about that for years. When my daughter did get her liver transplant and everyone kept saying how God worked his "miracle", I wish I had the courage to have said what I was thinking. Which was...the reason she made it was because she was in a Boston hospital, where the best doctors from around the world happened to be. And I was determined to see her live. She'll be 21 next month. So MY HEAVEN is right here, right now. I have 4 healthy kids and the sweetest husband anyone could hope for. I wake up everyday and I'm glad to be me. When I'm gone all I can hope for is the people I leave behind know how much I loved them. That's what I spend my energy on. Not trying to convince people I don't even know, that my beliefs are THE WAY. This forum is so refreshing in that respect. To be able to be ME. No one on here is trying to change anyone.

[mikex1337]

Thanks for sharing. I think I'm a bit late in my reply, but this is an amusing story.

[BillyJoe]

What I meant was "my exact words at the time". But I have a feeling you are taking my metaphor a little too literally. I wasn't actually standing in the parking lot shouting "you sick f***" at the sky. My thoughts of god's character, if he existed at all, were in response to being accosted by a nurse who couldn't possibly understand why I would risk damning my daughter to hell for eternity for the crime of not having some guy in a funny suit with his shirt on backwards wave his arms around and splash her with water while speaking funny words. I often wonder what her response would have been if I had suggested getting the clown from the children's wing to squirt her with a seltzer bottle while singing "Mary had a little lamb" and doing the Chicken Dance instead.

I never really considered that god might be real, but "believed long enough to call him a right bloody bastard" makes the point how angry I was and, despite my desperation, never resorted to prayer "just in case".


I see what you mean. :)
I guess you were displacing your anger towards the nurse onto the god she espouses. I can identify with that. I have often caught myself out angrily exclaiming "Where was the bastard when the plane went down?"

[Paulhoff]

A little girl is walking with her father.
Little girl asked her father, "god loves us right?"
Father, "Well yes, of course."
Little girl, "Then why do people get sick, or hurt?"
Father, "Well, if nobody got sick or hurt how would god be able to make miracles."
Little girl, looking and kicking at the ground, "I guess god would be out of work then."

Paul

:) :) :)

[BillyJoe]

I see your little girl is a whole lot smarter than her dad. :cool:

[Paulhoff]

I see your little girl is a whole lot smarter than her dad. :cool:
In reality, it doesn’t take much to be smarter than a religious person, when it does come to reality.

Paul

:) :) :)

[BillyJoe]

You missed my little joke. :D

[Paulhoff]

You missed my little joke. :D
I did not miss your little joke, geeeee.

Paul

:) :) :)

[BillyJoe]

:D

[Tricky]

It kinda make you wonder if the Guardian Angels aren't in some kinda gang or something where they have some dangerous initiation ritual.

Angel Spike: So ya wanna be a Guardian Angel, huh?

Angel Bruno: Yeah, like I always was good in a tight spot, ya see...

Angel Spike: We don't give a *%$# about your tough talk. You wanna be a GA, you gotta show us. You protectin' anybody now?

Angel Bruno: 'Course I am. I got dis little tree year old chick. She gonna be hot too!

Angel Spike: We'll see bout dat. I'm sendin' a cement truck over the rail where she's standing. You gotta pluck her outta da way.

Angel Bruno: Wha? Right now! S*%t!

(Sound of furiously flapping wings followed by a screech of brakes and a crash)

Angel Spike: Oh, tough luck.