Sherman's Neckties

[Sparky]

Has anyone ever used "Sherman's Neckties" as a rebuttal for the often used claim that "Fire doesn't melt steel"?

Oh, I felt I should finally get involved around here.

[Dave Rogers]

Has anyone ever used "Sherman's Neckties" as a rebuttal for the often used claim that "Fire doesn't melt steel"?

Oh, I felt I should finally get involved around here.

[CT mode]
No, because Sherman's troops' fires didn't actually melt the steel, they just softened it to the point where it would bend easily, and in a steel framed skyscraper that would mean...

... oh.
[/CT mode]

Yeah, that works for me. Actually, I'd never heard of Sherman's Neckties before (the American Civil War isn't that big a subject in the UK history curriculum) so I had to check Wikipedia - how well known are they in the US?

Dave

[Mobyseven]

???







And welcome to the forums, Sparky!

[ob986s]

Yeah, that works for me. Actually, I'd never heard of Sherman's Neckties before (the American Civil War isn't that big a subject in the UK history curriculum) so I had to check Wikipedia - how well known are they in the US?

Dave

I'd never heard of them either. but of course I am a Southerner living in Atlanta so we're not real big on Sherman :)

Jon

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

For ease of reference Sherman's neckties

[negativ]

Sherman's Neckties?? It sounds like some sort of ominous Mafia lingo. Sort of like "going to the mattresses" or "wearing cement galoshes".

[Sparky]

Yeah, that works for me. Actually, I'd never heard of Sherman's Neckties before (the American Civil War isn't that big a subject in the UK history curriculum) so I had to check Wikipedia - how well known are they in the US?

Dave

I've known about them for quite a while (I watch old John Wayne movies) but I hadn't made the mental addition to apply it to WTC until recently.

[JimBenArm]

I've known about them for quite a while (I watch old John Wayne movies) but I hadn't made the mental addition to apply it to WTC until recently.
Hi Sparky! Welcome to the forum!
There was a special on the History Channel or Discovery just recently that was about Sherman. That's where I found out about them. They had some re-enactors show how it was done. The fact that a simple wood fire could soften rails to the point that 6 men could bend it around a tree should put an end to this "no fire could.." nonsense. But, then, of course it won't.

[beachnut]

Has anyone ever used "Sherman's Neckties" as a rebuttal for the often used claim that "Fire doesn't melt steel"?

Oh, I felt I should finally get involved around here.
If truthers would just get out and see what fire does to steel buildings they would stop talking about WTC steel being super steel.

[T.A.M.]

Welcome to the forum Sparky.

Someone should make one of these "Sherman Neckties" and send it to Rosie O'Donnell with a description of how they were crafted...lol

TAM:)

[Retrograde]

[CT mode]
No, because Sherman's troops' fires didn't actually melt the steel, they just softened it to the point where it would bend easily, and in a steel framed skyscraper that would mean...

... oh.
[/CT mode]Besides, who was Sherman working for??? The GOVERNMENT!!!! Hahahahahahaha! And what proof do you have that he burned Atlanta? Why, I flew there just the other month and I can tell you it does not look like a city that was burned to the ground! It's a conspiracy, I tell you!!!!

(Is that enough exclamation marks?)

As for fire collapsing steel-framed buildings - I've seen pictures of the aftermath of the 1906 San Francisco earthquake and fire: quite a few steel-framed structures failed to survive the latter.

[DGM]

Sherman invented thermate?:D

[Sparky]

Since I mentioned old John Wayne movies, I should probably also mention that the opening credits of "Hellfighters" is a nice demonstration of the effects of a petroleum fire on a steel-framed structure.

[steve s]

Hi Sparky! Welcome to the forum!
There was a special on the History Channel or Discovery just recently that was about Sherman. That's where I found out about them. They had some re-enactors show how it was done. The fact that a simple wood fire could soften rails to the point that 6 men could bend it around a tree should put an end to this "no fire could.." nonsense. But, then, of course it won't.

I saw that. IIRC, it featured Steve Thomas, formerly of This Old House.

Steve S.

[Alareth]

I seem to recall them being brought up here not too long ago.

[Horatius]

For ease of reference Sherman's neckties




let a man at each end twist the bar so that its surface becomes spiral.


Hahahaha! Now you OCTers would have us believe the "terrorists' were in the towers bending teh steel by hand?!?!?///1?!

[/stupid]



Did they at least wear gloves? Owwww!

[Alareth]

http://www.civilwarhome.com/bowties.htm

[Mobyseven]

Ah, very cool! Hadn't heard of that before (I'm an Aussie, so US history doesn't really get taught here).

Nice entry to the forums, Sparky!

[SpitfireIX]

Has anyone ever used "Sherman's Neckties" as a rebuttal for the often used claim that "Fire doesn't melt steel"?


I hate to burst everyone's bubbles, and I'm sorry to have to rain on Sparky's parade, but the rails in question were actually iron. Although steel rails were beginning to be produced in Britain at the beginning of the war, all Southern railroads were constructed of iron or iron and wood rails.

From an article (http://americancivilwar.com/tcwn/confederate_navy/confederate_navy_buildup.html) on Confederate warship production by Prof. David G. Surdam:

Besides its limited shipbuilding facilities, the Confederate navy faced other difficulties. Domestically manufactured iron products were destined to be in short supply. . . . The South possessed some large iron mills (notably Tredegar in Richmond), but the region had always imported much of its railroad iron. P. V. Daniel, an official of the Richmond, Fredericksburg & Potomac Railroad, estimated that almost fifty thousand tons of rails were needed annually just to maintain the southern railroads. He declared at the time that the existing iron mills in the South were capable of supplying less than half of that figure, let alone provide iron plate for armoring warships. According to the report of the secretary of the treasury for the year ending June 30, 1860, southern ports received sixty-five thousand tons of railroad iron; almost all of the imported rail iron was from Great Britain.[citation omitted]


Additionally, a large proportion of the South's railroad mileage consisted of wood with strips of iron on top (known as "strap rail"). Here is a quotation from a Union cavalry commander, Major General Lovell Rousseau:

The character of the superstructure of the road and the kind of timber used in its construction greatly facilitated the work. The cross-ties were of pitch pine, and into these were sunken stringers of the same kind of wood, and a light bar of iron spiked on the top through holes in a projection or flange. The wedges by which the string timbers were fastened into the cross-ties were readily driven out, and from 50 to 100 feet of the track raised from the ties at once by the use of fence rails as levers. The rails and timbers from one side of the road were placed upon those of the other and fence rails and other combustible material piled on them, and fire applied. The dry pine burned so readily and produced such an intense heat that the iron was rendered worthless, and the ties burned off where the track rested upon them, making the destruction complete.


(Quoted in Sherman's Horsemen: Union Cavalry Operations in the Atlanta Campaign (http://books.google.com/books?id=4vxjHOFflzcC&pg=PA138&lpg=PA138&dq=%22strap+rail%22+confederacy&source=web&ots=pWTffuFB5Y&sig=j-ecVOe7gBDVvIrtWrU-K2xWVsE#PPP1,M1), by David Evans, p. 138.)

Oh, I felt I should finally get involved around here.


Welcome to the board, Sparky, and we're glad you've de-lurked. Keep asking questions about the "truth" movement; you'll find their answers don't add up.

[bonavada]

excellent video HERE (http://www.quantumtour.com/entity/mcallister/video/1/) The making of a Shermans Necktie.
BTW i may be wrong but looks to me like that steel deformed under its own weight even before they wrap it round that tree. makes you think huh?

BV

[Hans]

In the civil war re-enactment I presume they were using fairly modern railroad ties which would have been made of steel?

Might be interesting to see the difference in characteristics between railroad rail steel and construction steel

[Unsecured Coins]

Sherman invented thermate?:D

Shermate?

[Dave Rogers]

I hate to burst everyone's bubbles, and I'm sorry to have to rain on Sparky's parade, but the rails in question were actually iron. Although steel rails were beginning to be produced in Britain at the beginning of the war, all Southern railroads were constructed of iron or iron and wood rails.

In the interests of patching up the bubbles and towelling off Sparky's parade, though, steel melts at a lower temperature than iron (at least, according to Steven Jones, and we all know everything he says is true).

Dave

[MG1962]

I successfully deployed a necktie on a site I hang around at. It is not noted for conspiracy content, but this fellow popped up and began bragging about architects for truth

First I started with the troll bomb that you guys let off over there, then when the truther regrouped and went on about melting steel, I mopped up survivors with Sherman's necktie.

[Sparky]

I... I mopped up survivors with Sherman's necktie.

Did he have any response to that?

[bonavada]

In the interests of patching up the bubbles and towelling off Sparky's parade, though, steel melts at a lower temperature than iron (at least, according to Steven Jones, and we all know everything he says is true).
Dave

mopping up the trickles..........

Iron, out of the ground, melts at around 1510 degrees C (2750°F). Steel often melts at around 1370 degrees C (2500°F (http://education.jlab.org/qa/meltingpoint_01.html)).

of course we are not considering the melting point of these metals only the softening. perhaps it's safe to extrapolate that the WTC steel would be easier to soften than a similar amount of iron?

BV

[SpitfireIX]

mopping up the trickles..........

Iron, out of the ground, melts at around 1510 degrees C (2750°F). Steel often melts at around 1370 degrees C (2500°F (http://education.jlab.org/qa/meltingpoint_01.html)).

of course we are not considering the melting point of these metals only the softening. perhaps it's safe to extrapolate that the WTC steel would be easier to soften than a similar amount of iron?

BV


I'm afraid we can't assert that at all--the mechanical and thermal properties of metals are extremely complex. Further complicating the issue, two main types of iron were used for railroad rails: cast iron, which melts at around 200-300 degrees F lower than most steel, and wrought iron, which melts at around 100-200 degrees F higher than most steel, but is easily worked when heated white-hot.

[bonavada]

I'm afraid we can't assert that at all--the mechanical and thermal properties of metals are extremely complex. Further complicating the issue, two main types of iron were used for railroad rails: cast iron, which melts at around 200-300 degrees F lower than most steel, and wrought iron, which melts at around 100-200 degrees F higher than most steel, but is easily worked when heated white-hot.

ok thanks. but, from the neck-tie analogy, can we infer (at least in general terms) that as iron, which has similar (not radically different) properties to steel, can be softened (weakened?) by an open fire this does seem like a good refutation of the constant claim that the particular fires in the twin towers couldn't have caused the steel there to "fail"?
afterthought: seems like i've just re-stated my case from my other post above. my ignorance of metallurgy prevents me from looking into this further. but the neck-tie analogy does seem like a powerful one.

BV

[MortFurd]

Discussions about whether iron or steel melts or weakens at a lower temperature are sort of academic. Sherman heated and bent iron rails, the re-enactment guys heated and bent steel rails. In both cases, a wood fire was hot enough to do the job.

A further point against twoofers:
Watch the video and you'll see the guys carrying the rails with nothing more than leather gloves to protect their hands. The middle section of the rail is hot enough to set the tree on fire, but the guys can carry it in their hands with nothing more than a little leather for protection. Makes hash of some of the "heat sink" arguments that get made.

[bonavada]

Discussions about whether iron or steel melts or weakens at a lower temperature are sort of academic.
................
The middle section of the rail is hot enough to set the tree on fire, but the guys can carry it in their hands with nothing more than a little leather for protection. Makes hash of some of the "heat sink" arguments that get made.

i agree. but if i used this analogy in an argument in twoofdom i would like a bit of ammunition. so it's handy to discuss it. forewarned is forearmed and so on. regarding the steel in the re-enactment also: as i wrote above, the steel seems to deform under it's own weight on that fire. that's very interesting (given the enormous loads on the TT steel pre-collapse)

BV

[CptColumbo]

Here's how easy they were to make. Notice they wrap the hot steel around a tree.

[SpitfireIX]

Discussions about whether iron or steel melts or weakens at a lower temperature are sort of academic. Sherman heated and bent iron rails, the re-enactment guys heated and bent steel rails. In both cases, a wood fire was hot enough to do the job.



I was wondering about that--it's hard to tell from watching the video what they're actually using. In your picture it doesn't look like a modern railroad rail, though again it's hard to tell. I think it might just be a long iron or steel bar.

A further point against twoofers:
Watch the video and you'll see the guys carrying the rails with nothing more than leather gloves to protect their hands. The middle section of the rail is hot enough to set the tree on fire, but the guys can carry it in their hands with nothing more than a little leather for protection. Makes hash of some of the "heat sink" arguments that get made.


Also ask them how a blacksmith can hold a piece of metal that's red-hot at one end.

http://www.hardwaresource.com/about_hinges/hinge_history_images/blacksmith.jpg

[MortFurd]

I was wondering about that--it's hard to tell from watching the video what they're actually using. In your picture it doesn't look like a modern railroad rail, though again it's hard to tell. I think it might just be a long iron or steel bar.




Also ask them how a blacksmith can hold a piece of metal that's red-hot at one end.


In CptColumbo's picture, it does look like just a long rod. I don't know if it's iron or steel. The video shows a rail being bent, though. I'm assuming that it's a steel rail, as I find it unlikely they'd go out and locate a rail old enough to be made of iron only to destroy it. Much more likely that they used a modern steel rail.

[CptColumbo]

Here's a shorter video.
Drsgs6-3Qlg

[Dave Rogers]

Here's a shorter video.
Drsgs6-3Qlg

Now I'm confused. How did they get them off the trees?

Dave

[CptColumbo]

Now I'm confused. How did they get them off the trees?

Dave

They didn't need to bend them as far as they do in the video. Close to a right angle is usually as far as they got bent.

[CptColumbo]

Or like this.

[CptColumbo]

Keep in mind that this was done many times in a given day and all they needed to do was bend it enough to prevent the Confererates from being able to reuse them quickly.

Here are some at right angles.

[PhantomWolf]

Watch the video and you'll see the guys carrying the rails with nothing more than leather gloves to protect their hands. The middle section of the rail is hot enough to set the tree on fire, but the guys can carry it in their hands with nothing more than a little leather for protection. Makes hash of some of the "heat sink" arguments that get made.

I actually posted this to the moderated thread but it got goned for an unknown reason. For a metal steel is a very poor conductor of heat. It has a heat conductivity of only about 30-50, similar to lead. Aluminium has a kof 300-350 while Gold and Copper are 400-500. You can do a very simple test by taking a sqaure of plate steel and plate aluminium, putting them in a vice and then grinding them with a file. Once you have been working on them for a few minutes, pick them up with your bare hand. You'll get the idea almost immediately.