"Suicide is painless. It brings on many changes. But I can take or leave it if I ..."

[The Grave]

I once filled in a from to join a .... government agency ...that's all I can say or I'd have to kill you.

On the form it posed this question:"Do you now or have you ever had thoughts of killing yourself?"

To this, as a naive 19 yr old, I replied, no. Naive, yes, but more because at that age I was quite prepared to sign my life away to people who would have used me.

Also naive because I thought that by picking 'no' I would get in...I didn't; And I'm glad...not to be suffering the regrets some people have!

I should have realised [probably did, but took a chance, and lost] that they knew what the true answer was...Everybody thinks of suicide, at some time! It's normal.

So to point...

I've quoted that famous theme music for a reason...

1- Is suicide 'easy' and 'painless'? And for whom?

2- Does it bring on 'changes' and are they good or bad?

3- And is it true that 'we' can "take or leave it"? Or, as I suspect, there are some who can, and some who can't.

4- As an evolutionist, I may struggle to fathom why genes would put in place a mechanism for their own annihilation. Or is it natural selection?

5- Does faith play a role? If god puts us here to learn, is suicide a get-out clause?

6- Are suiciders just plain selfish wimps with no foresight, only interested in their own personal pain, taking the easy way out, leaving behind the mess they find themselves in, with a bigger mess - their death - for others to clean up and come to terms with? OR does it take a real strength of character?

7- Does suicide have a use?

8- Should people BE allowed to terminate their own lives or have someone help?

9- Do you know anyone who did commit suicide?

10- Would YOU commit suicide; if so why? What would it achieve? Who would it benefit?

On my father's death certificate it reads "death by misadventure"...he was on anti depressants, under stress from studying Pharmacy and split from my mother and me (at 2 yrs); he/she were both 21.

While out celebrating graduation he drank alcohol + medication and so had a fit and died...Was it intentional? As a pharmacology student he would have known the risks; did he think he knew better - thought he knew his limits? The family has racked themselves for nearly 40 yrs and will never know! I don't claim to.

Me? I was born with a disability and hated myself for years. Many times I thought that suicide was the answer. It wasn't. My wife and children are the answer. But you have to work hard at it...

Anything worth having, is worth working hard to get!

Griff...

[Zep]

Is there a question you wanted answered or something?

[Tricky]

My response to a similar thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=652495)a few years back.


I think suicide is never a sin. If there is one thing that you can truly call your own, it is your own life. Choosing to end it prematurely is a decision that only the person can make.

It may be tragic and/or selfish, but still, ultimately, a personal decision. Or it may be honorable, as Iacchus has pointed out.

I know one person who killed himself for whom I have nothing but respect. He had been diagnosed with inoperable cancer. But it was a slow-moving kind, and he was destined to put himself and his family through a long, painful, expensive and hopeless ordeal. I totally respect his decision.

Frankly, if I was facing some hopeless, mind-destroying disease, like Alzheimers, I would not want to put my family through that, realizing that after a while, it wouldn't even be "me", but just my body.

That being said, I recently heard a story about a person who was going through the loss of a loved one and sought comfort from one of those people who claim to "speak to the dead." The spiritualist had the woman so convinced that everything was just peachy keen on "the other side", that the woman decide she'd rather be there and committed suicide. In my mind, it was more like murder by the scumbag spiritualist who preys on the greiving.

[Imilia]

I believe death by misadventure is probably right. It doesn't matter how much someone knows on paper, it doesn't always transfer to real life. Especially at a young age. Many people believe that yes, alcohol and med can kill, but not me.

I have thought about suicide. Sometimes seriously. The strange thing is, once I became ok with the thought of dying, I was much better at living. Does that make sense?

As for why, evolution wise? Is it part of the fight or flight experience? Those of us who can't really run from our lives physically decide to do it completely? I don't know. I do know it is hard on those left behind.

[kellyb]

I think it's a personal decision, but how selfish it is depends on individual circumstances. If someone has a terminal illness I'd never judge them. As a parent without a terminal illness or severe psychiatric disorder, it would be very selfish for me to do it now, which is why I haven't really considered it since I've been a parent.

There are probably painless and easy ways to do it. I've had a few EMT friends who told stories about reviving heroin junkies who were nearly dead, and apparently heroin overdose wouldn't be a terrible way to go based off of those anecdotes.

Evolution-wise, I don't think there's anything there. I think it's just a rare quirk that has arisen from our intelligence. Not enough people kill themselves for it to effect human evolution one way or another or imply that there's a "purpose" to it. It's just a side effect of being able to think about the things we can in the way that we sometimes do.

[Solus]

Any passive thoughts of suicide are indicators of moderate to severe depression and should be taken very seriously. I think suicide is only justified for those who are terminally ill and in great suffering.

[kellyb]

I think suicide is only justified for those who are terminally ill and in great suffering.

How can you say what's justified for another person, though?

I can think of lots of extreme situations outside of painful, terminal illness that would probably qualify as understandable situations where one might choose to kill themselves.

[Puppycow]

I once filled in a from to join a .... government agency ...that's all I can say or I'd have to kill you.

On the form it posed this question:"Do you now or have you ever had thoughts of killing yourself?"

To this, as a naive 19 yr old, I replied, no. Naive, yes, but more because at that age I was quite prepared to sign my life away to people who would have used me.

Also naive because I thought that by picking 'no' I would get in...I didn't; And I'm glad...not to be suffering the regrets some people have!

I should have realised [probably did, but took a chance, and lost] that they knew what the true answer was...Everybody thinks of suicide, at some time! It's normal.

Yeah but it's also completely normal for basically honest people to answer that question 'no.' No sensible person who wants that job would answer 'yes' if their 'thoughts of suicide' were never very serious. Serious job applicants are supposed to paint themselves in the best possible light. It's not a time for complete frankness about everything.

[Corpse Cruncher]

I don't think suicide can ever be painless. As to whom the pain will occur is another matter.

Seems to be a highly desirable trend for teens to go through I believe they are labelled Emo's. How very sad for society, that the young wish to bypass life for a fashion item.

[Dancing David]

I once filled in a from to join a .... government agency ...that's all I can say or I'd have to kill you.

On the form it posed this question:"Do you now or have you ever had thoughts of killing yourself?"

To this, as a naive 19 yr old, I replied, no. Naive, yes, but more because at that age I was quite prepared to sign my life away to people who would have used me.

Also naive because I thought that by picking 'no' I would get in...I didn't; And I'm glad...not to be suffering the regrets some people have!

I should have realised [probably did, but took a chance, and lost] that they knew what the true answer was...Everybody thinks of suicide, at some time! It's normal.

So to point...

I've quoted that famous theme music for a reason...

1- Is suicide 'easy' and 'painless'? And for whom?

2- Does it bring on 'changes' and are they good or bad?

3- And is it true that 'we' can "take or leave it"? Or, as I suspect, there are some who can, and some who can't.

4- As an evolutionist, I may struggle to fathom why genes would put in place a mechanism for their own annihilation. Or is it natural selection?

5- Does faith play a role? If god puts us here to learn, is suicide a get-out clause?

6- Are suiciders just plain selfish wimps with no foresight, only interested in their own personal pain, taking the easy way out, leaving behind the mess they find themselves in, with a bigger mess - their death - for others to clean up and come to terms with? OR does it take a real strength of character?

7- Does suicide have a use?

8- Should people BE allowed to terminate their own lives or have someone help?

9- Do you know anyone who did commit suicide?

10- Would YOU commit suicide; if so why? What would it achieve? Who would it benefit?

On my father's death certificate it reads "death by misadventure"...he was on anti depressants, under stress from studying Pharmacy and split from my mother and me (at 2 yrs); he/she were both 21.

While out celebrating graduation he drank alcohol + medication and so had a fit and died...Was it intentional? As a pharmacology student he would have known the risks; did he think he knew better - thought he knew his limits? The family has racked themselves for nearly 40 yrs and will never know! I don't claim to.

Me? I was born with a disability and hated myself for years. Many times I thought that suicide was the answer. It wasn't. My wife and children are the answer. But you have to work hard at it...

Anything worth having, is worth working hard to get!

Griff...

Lots of questions:

First off the question is phrased specifically, "Do you have thoughts of killing yourself?" for a reason, the word suicidal is very vague in common parlance. So when doing crisis assessment you have to be careful to ask them that way.

Otherwise when they think "I wish I wasn't here" or "I wish this was over" then they will tell you they are suicidal. You have to listen to a lot of stuff and ask a lot of questions when you do a suicide risk assessment. Most people have what you can call 'vague thoughts of suicide' or something like that. When you ask them what they are actually thinking it is often not "I should kill myself".

So there is a lot that goes into a crisis assessment.


1- Is suicide 'easy' and 'painless'? And for whom?


Usually it takes quite a bit of determination to actually try to kill yourself, substance abuse is an important factor. Most people have to think about it a long time and steel themselves to do it. I have talked to people covered in blood because they did reach that point. Suicide is not too difficult.

It is obviously painful for all the people around.

2- Does it bring on 'changes' and are they good or bad?

The song is very sophomoric.
To paraphrase Full Metal Jacket "The dead know only one thing they wish they weren't dead", the dead feel nothing and experience nothing, the people left behind really suffer.

3- And is it true that 'we' can "take or leave it"? Or, as I suspect, there are some who can, and some who can't.

Compulsion to end ones life would be hard to investigate.

Crisis intervention is based on the idea most people thinking of suicide are in pain and they don't want to end their lives, they want the pain to stop.

4- As an evolutionist, I may struggle to fathom why genes would put in place a mechanism for their own annihilation. Or is it natural selection?

That is a toughie, you can have genes that might cause depression but if they confer an advantage to people with only a partial expression than the genes get passed on.

5- Does faith play a role? If god puts us here to learn, is suicide a get-out clause?

No and unknowable.

6- Are suiciders just plain selfish wimps with no foresight, only interested in their own personal pain, taking the easy way out, leaving behind the mess they find themselves in, with a bigger mess - their death - for others to clean up and come to terms with? OR does it take a real strength of character?

No, yes and no.

People who terminate their lives usually do so because they want the pain to end. They do leave behind a mess for others and they are selfish in that respect. And I wouldn't say moral character is often involved.

7- Does suicide have a use?

8- Should people BE allowed to terminate their own lives or have someone help?

I think that is a tough one, society says you shouldn't but then it also covers it up. Coroners are famous for not putting suicide on death certificates, it is way under reported.

I think that if someone is not under situational pain, substance dependence or a mental health issue than after considerable evaluation and a suitable waiting period, yes.

9- Do you know anyone who did commit suicide?


Yes, a man who I looked up too when I was 14, over something foolish.

The parent of two of my friends.

A close friend from high school.

10- Would YOU commit suicide; if so why? What would it achieve? Who would it benefit?

Yes. I have chronic depression and have endured various traumas. Benefit to no one. I haven't had suicidal ideation in a long time.


Would you like comments on the rest of your post?

[Dancing David]

To anyone having thoughts of harming themselves, please get help, talk to someone.

[Puppycow]

I don't have an answer for all these questions, but regarding just one or two:

4: Evolution doesn't always work out. It's always a works in progress and never perfect. Many adaptations, like sickle-cell, are not perfect but represent a trade-off. Sickle-cell prevents death by malaria, but causes anemia. It is selcted for in malaria zones, and selected against in non-malaria zones. Likewise the brain can be a double-edged sword. On balance it helps more people survive (or it has in the past) than commit suicide because of it.

[Pup]

6- Are suiciders just plain selfish wimps with no foresight, only interested in their own personal pain, taking the easy way out, leaving behind the mess they find themselves in, with a bigger mess - their death - for others to clean up and come to terms with? OR does it take a real strength of character?

To that I'd ask, are those who try to prevent someone from committing suicide just selfish wimps who want to avoid cleaning up the mess? Are they more interested in avoiding the minor pain of dealing with someone else's suicide, rather than appreciating the deeper pain that's causing the desire to commit suicide?

[Imilia]

I don't think anyone who tries to keep a loved one from committing suicide is just selfish and wanting to avoid a "minor" pain. Losing a loved one is not a minor pain. Watching a loved one who is in so much pain that they want to do away with themselves, is painful in itself.

Depression is a horrible illness that feeds on itself. It is very hard to fight, even with medication and therapy. To get through it, support from others is very necessary. I remember thinking it would be so much easier to slit my wrists and just watch my life slip away. I'm glad it never happened. With support from my family I am enjoying life again. I won't say I have completely beaten it. The gene is there, it's part of who I am. Still, life is good and I'm glad I'm still here to partake.

[Lonewulf]

I don't think anyone who tries to keep a loved one from committing suicide is just selfish and wanting to avoid a "minor" pain. Losing a loved one is not a minor pain. Watching a loved one who is in so much pain that they want to do away with themselves, is painful in itself.

And I don't think that people that kill themselves are just selfish, either. At least, not necessarily. A lot of people like to make suicide out to be a simple thing, that is the "easy way", and that anyone that does it are selfish wimps.

I'm sorry, but that's just not true.

Also, the idea that ONLY people suffering from some mental illness will commit suicide, I'm highly skeptical of. While depression and mental illness can lead to suicide, I'm sure that some very reasonable, rational people have committed suicide in the past.

[Pup]

I don't think anyone who tries to keep a loved one from committing suicide is just selfish and wanting to avoid a "minor" pain. Losing a loved one is not a minor pain.

I mean minor only in a relative sense: less than something else.

Unless the pain of losing a loved one is so great that it by itself causes a person to commit suicide too, then by definition it's less than the pain of the person who did commit suicide.

Or, the other possibility is that the surviving loved one's pain is equal or greater, but the person who committed suicide is just a weakling who can't take it as well. That could be. It goes back to the "wimps" in the original question.

Depression is a horrible illness that feeds on itself. It is very hard to fight, even with medication and therapy.

Have we established that all cases of suicide are the result of depression?

Regardless of the cause, suppose someone's physical or mental pain can't be lessened to an acceptable amount, with or without the help of others. Some things, like a painful but slow terminal disease, just can't be solved.

Is it still better to do anything possible to prevent someone from comitting suicide? What right do we have to expect someone else to continue enduring pain to prevent us from suffering?

[RandFan]

I2- Does it bring on 'changes' and are they good or bad?Hmmm.....

Well, let's think this through.

Before suicide:
Eating
Drinking
sleeping
Converting organic material to energy.

After suicide:
Atheism: None of the above.
Theism: Any number of ideas.

Good or bad? Depends on your perspective.

It's a song BTW, written for a comedy. I seriously doubt the writer had any deep philosophical intentions given the context that the song was used in (getting a guy laid who was contemplating suicide).

[Pup]

It's a song BTW, written for a comedy. I seriously doubt the writer had any deep philosophical intentions given the context that the song was used in (getting a guy laid who was contemplating suicide).

Time to merge threads with this one (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=79931), maybe? :D

[Civilized Worm]

1- Is suicide 'easy' and 'painless'? And for whom?


It's very easy as there are hundreds of ways to do it, and it's fairly painless if you do it right


2- Does it bring on 'changes' and are they good or bad?


I think going from alive to dead is a fairly significant change, and if you don't see that as good then suicide clearly isn't for you.


3- And is it true that 'we' can "take or leave it"? Or, as I suspect, there are some who can, and some who can't.


I guess so.


4- As an evolutionist, I may struggle to fathom why genes would put in place a mechanism for their own annihilation. Or is it natural selection?


I'm not sure how suicide works from a darwinian perspective, perhaps it's an unfortunate side effect of having emotions?


5- Does faith play a role? If god puts us here to learn, is suicide a get-out clause?


Wouldn't know about that.


6- Are suiciders just plain selfish wimps with no foresight, only interested in their own personal pain, taking the easy way out, leaving behind the mess they find themselves in, with a bigger mess - their death - for others to clean up and come to terms with? OR does it take a real strength of character?


I'm sick of this idea that "suicide is selfish". What's selfish is demanding someone stay alive because it pain you to see them die. It's their life they have every right to end it.

ETA: I see Pup has already touched on this.


7- Does suicide have a use?


It's very effective for becoming dead.


8- Should people BE allowed to terminate their own lives or have someone help?


Absolutely, although obviously it's something they should think through.


9- Do you know anyone who did commit suicide?


Can't say I do.


10- Would YOU commit suicide; if so why? What would it achieve? Who would it benefit?


If I wanted to sure.

[kellyb]

2- Does it bring on 'changes' and are they good or bad?

I think going from alive to dead is a fairly significant change, and if you don't see that as good then suicide clearly isn't for you.

I had the same thought, but you worded that much better than I would have. :)

[Wolfman]

I'd like to offer another perspective on suicide; pretty much all the comments here seem to be based on the assumption that suicide is something done primarily to escape something -- to escape crippling depression, to escape a world that seems too painful, to escape an illness which is slowly killing you, etc.

And, in the Western world, that assumption is, for the most part, true.

However, in Asia, and particularly in China, that assumption is not true at all. In Chinese culture, suicide can have an entirely different purpose, and indeed can be considered noble and desirable. Some common examples from Chinese history:

* A peasant man who had little money wanted to build a better life for himself. One day, he met another man who explained a business idea that seemed sure to generate tons of profit, but would require the first man's entire life savings. Excited, he goes home and tells his wife. His wife immediately sees that the second man is just trying to cheat her husband, and their family will lose everything -- but her husband will not listen to her.

Finally, in order to demonstrate the depth of her conviction that this is wrong, the woman hangs herself. This sacrifice, giving up her own life to demonstrate her opposition to something that will damage their entire family, causes the man to give up his plans, and keep his money. Thus, the family is saved through the wife's sacrifice.

* Similarly, an emperor is engaged in a war with a potential usurper to the throne. The emperor wants to attack in a certain place, at a certain time, but the general can see that it is actually a trap, and that this plan will result in the emperor's defeat. He tries to explain this, but the emperor won't listen.

So, the general pulls out his sword, and falls on it, killing himself in front of his emperor, in order to demonstrate the depth of his opposition to this plan. Faced with such a demonstration of loyalty (the general obviously is not saying this for personal gain), the emperor changes his mind, and his empire is saved.

Now, of course, this is somewhat oversimplified, there are a lot of different factors behind this (such as fear that, even if it was a good idea before, the spirit of the dead person will guarantee that now it fails); but the fact remains that while suicide is generally considered as something 'negative' in Western culture, it can actually have very positive connotations in Chinese (and other Asian) culture.

[Darth Rotor]

The strange thing is, once I became ok with the thought of dying, I was much better at living. Does that make sense?

Yes. It makes infinite sense. Confronting and accepting my own death was an immensely liberating experience for me.

Once you embrace death as part of your life, it loses some of its power to frighten you. That doesn't mean you lay your head on the railroad track, waiting for the Double E, or run into harvesters once a week, hoping to be shredded wheat the following week. It means, as you seem to have found out, that it becomes something to deal with from a position of clarity, not fret over. This leaves more time and mental energy that you can apply to living your life.

DR

[Foster Zygote]

This leaves more time and mental energy that you can apply to living your life.

DR

Spot on!

[The Grave]

To anyone having thoughts of harming themselves, please get help, talk to someone.


Go to the top of the class...

Thankyou for those 2 posts and for taking the time to do a good job!

Griff...:)

[The Grave]

I don't have an answer for all these questions, but regarding just one or two:

4: Evolution doesn't always work out. It's always a works in progress and never perfect. Many adaptations, like sickle-cell, are not perfect but represent a trade-off. Sickle-cell prevents death by malaria, but causes anemia. It is selcted for in malaria zones, and selected against in non-malaria zones. Likewise the brain can be a double-edged sword. On balance it helps more people survive (or it has in the past) than commit suicide because of it.


good point!

Griff...

[The Grave]

A quick thought; or 2...

Have you ever looked over the edge of a large cliff and thought:"Do it. What's the fooking point? Do it."

I have...and I'm pleased to say that the thing that stopped me was nothing more than....the view! I'm just happy now to be alive for however long...take it as it comes.

Story to relate:

I've had bad times (who hasn't).

I once went for a drive (I like fast cars/bikes) and I wasn't in a good mood. A young boy (+ friends) bated me so I let them past....but immediately got my "I don't care if I live or die head on" and drove (quite literally, trust me) at 110 mph at about 6 inches from their bumper. They looked scared and I felt ... nothing.

I'm glad I never got the job...I was prime "usable" material...a young fool!

Advice: Don't join the army!

Griff...Think-you have a brain!

[Piscivore]

Am I the only one who, when depressed, overwhelmed, and feeling genrally worthless wants to kill everybody else but himself? Homicidal, genocidal- yes. Suicidal, no.

Here's to quoting Heathers twice in one day:
"Suicide is a private thing."
"You're throwing your life away to become a statistic on U. S. f[rule 8]g A. Today; that's about the least private thing I can think of."

[parrotslave]

4- As an evolutionist, I may struggle to fathom why genes would put in place a mechanism for their own annihilation. Or is it natural selection?

The first thought that came to mind was old or disabled Eskimos who would wander out on an ice flow and freeze to death instead of being a burden on their family that would put the entire group at risk. They sacrificed themselves so others could survive and carry on their genetic code. The behavior benefited the group rather than the individual and might be some sort of carryover to today's suicidal behaviors.

[The Grave]

The first thought that came to mind was old or disabled Eskimos who would wander out on an ice flow and freeze to death instead of being a burden on their family that would put the entire group at risk. They sacrificed themselves so others could survive and carry on their genetic code. The behavior benefited the group rather than the individual and might be some sort of carryover to today's suicidal behaviors.


Well I suppose they could cook themselves instead! That would benefit the family by giving essential nutrients! And a hot meal.

I think not...really. Just kidding.

Griff...

[Solus]

Also, the idea that ONLY people suffering from some mental illness will commit suicide, I'm highly skeptical of. While depression and mental illness can lead to suicide, I'm sure that some very reasonable, rational people have committed suicide in the past.

Suicide is not always linked to mental illness. I have only one example but surely the samurai in Japan that committed hari kari did not all suffer from a mental illness.

[Solus]

I can think of lots of extreme situations outside of painful, terminal illness that would probably qualify as understandable situations where one might choose to kill themselves.

Name one.

[RandFan]

Name one.I read the story of a person who was an outdoors type. He hated TV and the movies and had lived his life in great health and accomplishment. His job was in the service industry and it meant a lot to him to be able to help others. He was very independent and life brought him much joy and pleasure. In his fifties he suffered some medical problems and had become confined to a bed to be cleaned and fed daily. He made a very earnest attempt to find happiness and joy in his life but the attempts paled to his earlier life. He was not terminal and was not in severe pain but after years of having little to live his life for he committed suicide.

I understand that.

[Pup]

Name one.

I was going to say a non-terminal painful illness, causing either mental or physical suffering, but RandFan explained it much better. There really are fates worth than death.

Then there are all those situations that we don't even count as "suicide" because we generally consider them heroic: Throwing yourself on a grenade to save your fellow soldiers, jumping in front of a car to push your child out of harm's way, and so forth.

The justification of suicide for various reasons in other cultures has been covered also.

[Solus]

I read the story of a person who was an outdoors type. He hated TV and the movies and had lived his life in great health and accomplishment. His job was in the service industry and it meant a lot to him to be able to help others. He was very independent and life brought him much joy and pleasure. In his fifties he suffered some medical problems and had become confined to a bed to be cleaned and fed daily. He made a very earnest attempt to find happiness and joy in his life but the attempts paled to his earlier life. He was not terminal and was not in severe pain but after years of having little to live his life for he committed suicide.

I understand that.

In that case I can see a valid reason for it. I'm forgetting the same is the case with of someone in my family who is diabetic, he would rather die than have his legs amputated because he would lose his independence and dignity as a person. He has been on dialysis for years and it still hasn't reached that point and likely won't. He isn't strong enough to be mobile without even one leg so I understand.

[Michael C]

Both my father and my father-in-law committed suicide. In both cases I can understand and respect their reasons and I do not consider that they have failed, nor that they were selfish.

1- Is suicide 'easy' and 'painless'? And for whom?

I don't think it's easy. When you start seriously thinking of the possible ways of doing it, there is no method guaranteed to be easy and painless. My father and father-in-law both hung themselves, and in both cases the drop was not enough to break their necks, so they died of strangulation: certainly not painless.

2- Does it bring on 'changes' and are they good or bad?

Obvious changes, as others have pointed out. As to good or bad, that depends on the situation.

3- And is it true that 'we' can "take or leave it"? Or, as I suspect, there are some who can, and some who can't.

I suspect you're right.

4- As an evolutionist, I may struggle to fathom why genes would put in place a mechanism for their own annihilation. Or is it natural selection?

I don't think suicide is a way of eliminating bad genes. It could have an evolutionary use to a social group. Someone very depressed could be a heavy burden on the group, both physically and mentally: it might benefit the group if that person removed the burden by killing themselves.

5- Does faith play a role? If god puts us here to learn, is suicide a get-out clause?

My father and father-in-law were atheists. Maybe it's a bit easier for an atheist than for a Christian to commit suicide: the Christian may be frightened of going to Hell for committing a mortal crime.

6- Are suiciders just plain selfish wimps with no foresight, only interested in their own personal pain, taking the easy way out, leaving behind the mess they find themselves in, with a bigger mess - their death - for others to clean up and come to terms with? OR does it take a real strength of character?

No, they're not selfish wimps. It takes courage. As to having to clean up the mess, people die anyway: suicide is just a way of choosing when. Before committing suicide, my father was careful to organise things: he paid all bills, wrote letters to close family members (posted to arrive after his death), made sure his will was OK, wrote a letter to the police telling them where they would find him... So there wasn't much mess to clean up. Of course we had to come to terms with what he had done, but in some ways it was a relief: we were unable to help him, and he had chosen his own way to end his suffering.

7- Does suicide have a use?

Yes (see answers to other questions)

8- Should people BE allowed to terminate their own lives or have someone help?

Yes

9- Do you know anyone who did commit suicide?

Yes, see above.

10- Would YOU commit suicide; if so why? What would it achieve? Who would it benefit?

Yes, if I were severely depressed or terminally ill. It would achieve an end to my sufferings. It might benefit the people who would otherwise have had to care for someone terminally ill or chronically depressed.

[The Grave]

Thanks for that. As you quite rightly say, the mess is not always the physical, I meant the emotional/financial burden left behind.

I think if a person writes a letter, outlining why, then this is good as it allows 'reason' to be established and closure may be swifter.

Not knowing (as in my family) is to live in limbo - for 40 yrs. I'm really thinking of the effect it's had on my uncle; he missed my father as they were v. close. I don't remember him, I was 2.

Griff.

[Tricky]

From Kurt Vonnegut's short story, "Welcome to the Monkey House"

All serious diseases had been conquered. So death was voluntary, and the government, to encourage volunteers for death, set up a purple-roofed Ethical Suicide Parlor at every major intersection, right next door to an orange-roofed Howard Johnson's. There were pretty hostesses in the parlor, and Barca-Loungers, and Muzak, and a choice of fourteen painless ways to die. The suicide parlors were busy places, because so many people felt silly and pointless, and because it was supposed to be an unselfish, patriotic thing to do, to die. The suicides also got free last meals next door.

[The Grave]

From Kurt Vonnegut's short story, "Welcome to the Monkey House"


Ahhh. What a way to go, eh?:)

Griff...

[The Grave]

Actually, on that point, it has just occurred to me to ask this question (not wanting to belittle the whole theme though....

If you are going to choose the:-

Time -

Place -

Method -

Music -

Witnesses-

What would they be, and why?

Griff...

[Dark Jaguar]

I'm not sure is IS normal and I'd actually submit that those little "trick questions" that reveal "liars" on these tests are fundamentally flawed.

It's one of those "everyone's thought about it and if you say you haven't, you are lying!" things. It BEGS the question, how did you come to that conclusion?

For my part, I've never considered suicide. I'm pretty much terrified of pain and scared of death as well (though not as much as pain). I've also never thought about robbing a bank. I'm not saying I'm that great a person but those two PARTICULAR thoughts have never crossed my mind. If anything I guess it's a sign I'm not a "complete" person to hear others talk about how EVERYONE thinks of those things.

As for suicide as an option, I just am not really sure. On the one hand, when I hear that if anything we should always be allowed to pick when we die, I'd agree with that sentiment. On the other hand, if I see someone standing on a bridge and just walk on ignoring them without attempting to stop them, I'd be pretty disgusted with myself. But, wouldn't preventing them from jumping be an attack on their liberties?

How about this for a fair thing? If you commit suicide, you have to do it away from everyone else because people will stop you if they catch you as part of the human condition. Consider it your final stealth mission, Molted Snake. There, now people can commit suicide, they just can't expect to succeed if anyone's around to stop them. Everyone wins.

[MelBrooksfan]

I'm not sure is IS normal and I'd actually submit that those little "trick questions" that reveal "liars" on these tests are fundamentally flawed.

It's one of those "everyone's thought about it and if you say you haven't, you are lying!" things. It BEGS the question, how did you come to that conclusion?

The tests are flawed. What-with their ambiguous wording and obsurd length (typically 20-25 pages with 4-6 questions per page). Worst of all, they have little or nothing to do with the the job and yet they make up the bulk of the application.

[Just_Judy]

Never thought my first post would be about something that hits so close to home. My life partner, Clark Adams, took his own life 3 weeks ago. I always believed in suicide for the terminally ill...but for a vibrant man without a supposed care in the world, on top of his game, and loved by thousands, I find it hard to comprehend how people can hide their depression from so many people, and choose to end their lives, for what could be a treatable, temporary problem.

[The Grave]

Never thought my first post would be about something that hits so close to home. My life partner, Clark Adams, took his own life 3 weeks ago. I always believed in suicide for the terminally ill...but for a vibrant man without a supposed care in the world, on top of his game, and loved by thousands, I find it hard to comprehend how people can hide their depression from so many people, and choose to end their lives, for what could be a treatable, temporary problem.


This I think can be the typical scenario which can be so hard to understand. We all have private thoughts and sometimes the speed at which a silly problem can become suddenly totally overwhelming takes us by surprise. In hindsight it's always easy to say: "phew, I'm glad I calmed down and didn't do that".... but how quickly things can change!

We all may think we can guard against it, but anger/depression, whatever the reason for the emotional trauma, can sneak up on us at any time... and worst of all; it's like a drug - it gets its hooks into you; you think you're off it and it gets you again.

Griff...

[Dancing David]

Never thought my first post would be about something that hits so close to home. My life partner, Clark Adams, took his own life 3 weeks ago. I always believed in suicide for the terminally ill...but for a vibrant man without a supposed care in the world, on top of his game, and loved by thousands, I find it hard to comprehend how people can hide their depression from so many people, and choose to end their lives, for what could be a treatable, temporary problem.

I am very sorry to hear about that, you have my sympathy. I can discuss the hidden aspect of depression if you wish. May you find solace in your journey.

Sincerely David G.

[Solus]

Never thought my first post would be about something that hits so close to home. My life partner, Clark Adams, took his own life 3 weeks ago. I always believed in suicide for the terminally ill...but for a vibrant man without a supposed care in the world, on top of his game, and loved by thousands, I find it hard to comprehend how people can hide their depression from so many people, and choose to end their lives, for what could be a treatable, temporary problem.

My greatest sympathies, I hope you are seeking support. This might help http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/Suicide-Survivors.