Iron into ocean Saves the World?

[mhaze]

Planktos (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2002/05/22/plnktos.DTL) officials say that for every ton of iron used, 100,000 tons of carbon will be pulled into the ocean. Eventually, if this first large-scale test works, George hopes to remove 3 billion tons of carbon from the Earth's atmosphere, half of what's needed. Some scientists say that's overstated.


Planktos' efforts are financed by companies and individuals who buy carbon credits to offset their use of fossil fuels.

Of couse published results that this is ineffective do not matter. (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/01/0108_020108oceaniron.html) And this was financed by "individuals who buy carbon credits to offset their use of fossil fuels"?


Which means what, exactly about "Carbon credits?"

[RecoveringYuppy]

Carbon credits are a measure of how much carbon an company emits. Companies that are under their emission limits can sell their carbon credits to companies that are over their limits. It's an attempt at a free market solution to lowering carbon emissions.

Carbon credits can also be bought from companies that remove carbon from the atmosphere.

IMO Iron seeding is far too complicated to rule it in or out based on what little research we've done.

[kedo1981]

Anyone who thinks “carbon credits” are anything more than an attempt to extort money is a F**KING moron.
We have real environmental issues to deal with, things that could very negatively effect the human race; they can only be solved with science and reason.
But we are very plainly allowing the whole thing to be controlled by politics, namely leftist, socialist ideologies.

[qayak]

But we are very plainly allowing the whole thing to be controlled by politics, namely leftist, socialist ideologies.

Well none of the rightists believe there are any environmental problems so it isn't much use for them to be in charge now, is it? :rolleyes:

[mhaze]

Carbon credits are a measure of how much carbon an company emits. Companies that are under their emission limits can sell their carbon credits to companies that are over their limits. It's an attempt at a free market solution to lowering carbon emissions.

Carbon credits can also be bought from companies that remove carbon from the atmosphere.

IMO Iron seeding is far too complicated to rule it in or out based on what little research we've done.

So .... if you can't rule it in or out then what do you think of giving carbon credits for this activity?

a. jail the scammers
b. look the other way
c. they are in my political party so it's okay with me

[mhaze]

Anyone who thinks “carbon credits” are anything more than an attempt to extort money is a F**KING moron.
We have real environmental issues to deal with, things that could very negatively effect the human race; they can only be solved with science and reason.
But we are very plainly allowing the whole thing to be controlled by politics, namely leftist, socialist ideologies.

But didn't Kyoto fail by it's own standards, it's results? Same for the carbon credit schemes?

[RecoveringYuppy]

So .... if you can't rule it in or out then what do you think of giving carbon credits for this activity?

a. jail the scammers
b. look the other way
c. they are in my political party so it's okay with me
None of the above. Financing some research this way is fine by me.

[mhaze]

None of the above. Financing some research this way is fine by me.

Decent argument, but where is the research? I can't see anyway they could substantiate claims of success. Further and more to the point, I do not believe it was part of the carbon credits concept as implemented to finance research, only viable, proven projects.

[Earthborn]

Which means what, exactly about "Carbon credits?"It means that one should not confuse them with 'carbon offsets'.

[RecoveringYuppy]

Decent argument, but where is the research? I can't see anyway they could substantiate claims of success. Further and more to the point, I do not believe it was part of the carbon credits concept as implemented to finance research, only viable, proven projects.
I suppose proof is a matter of opinion, but the whole area of creating carbon sinks is new ground so there aren't any proven projects. And it's going to be a long time before anything is proven.

[mhaze]

Actually, carbon credits did start out with the best of intentions,

But they were set to be a free exchange at a market rate, and prices slid due to credibility factors.

Here is the best deal I've found. (http://www.valbrosrankers.com/bigblue/10unit.asp)

[CapelDodger]

Planktos (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2002/05/22/plnktos.DTL) officials say that for every ton of iron used, 100,000 tons of carbon will be pulled into the ocean. Eventually, if this first large-scale test works, George hopes to remove 3 billion tons of carbon from the Earth's atmosphere, half of what's needed. Some scientists say that's overstated.

Sod the scientists, fill your boots if there's stock available.

Planktos' efforts are financed by companies and individuals who buy carbon credits to offset their use of fossil fuels.

A list of mug companies would be handy, I want out of them.

Of couse published results that this is ineffective do not matter. (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/01/0108_020108oceaniron.html)

They do to me. I can sell ineffective carbon-credits at least as well as these guys, and undercut them. I'm not greedy, and there are no ships involved. There's clearly a bunch of mugs out there just asking for it.

And this was financed by "individuals who buy carbon credits to offset their use of fossil fuels"?

If you say so. Or was that a question? In which case, I don't know. From what I know of the science, the whole iron-seeding idea - while perfectly good in concept - has, in practical terms, turned out to be a crock.

Which means what, exactly about "Carbon credits?"

It's too early to say, IMO.

[mhaze]

Sod the scientists
mug companies
mugs


Translations for ore who know not the King's English?

[Schneibster]

Translation:
"There's a sucker born every minute." -P. T. Barnum

ETA: Oh, and "sod" is a British swear word that is short for "sodomy."

[CapelDodger]

Translations for ore who know not the King's English?

It's currently the Queen's English, dear boy, and will be until Battie Prince Charlie finally gets his turn.

"Sod" as in "To hell with"; it is indeed short for "Sodomise".

"Mug" as in a grifter's "mark". Mug punters are always welcome at my poker games.

"Punter" - member of the general public; prole; mark. More specifically, a gambler.

[Darat]

...snip..

ETA: Oh, and "sod" is a British swear word that is short for "sodomy."

It's currently the Queen's English, dear boy, and will be until Battie Prince Charlie finally gets his turn.

"Sod" as in "To hell with"; it is indeed short for "Sodomise".

...snip...

Its meaning as a term of abuse predates its derivation from a shortening for sodomite.

Sorry. :duck:

[mhaze]

It's currently the Queen's English

Ownership of the entire language changes with the administration?

Gee, I thought we had problems!

[stormer]

It's currently the Queen's English, dear boy, and will be until Battie Prince Charlie finally gets his turn.



I always thought it was The King's English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King's_English), after the book. Over time, people thought king's referred to the ruler, and so now it has become wrongly known as queen's english

[davefoc]

The National Geographic article didn't present evidence that was commensurate with their opening claim:

Two researchers may have put the final stake in the heart of the so- called Geritol solution to global warming, a proposal that has intrigued the scientific community for more than a decade.

From the end of the article:
He noted, however, that several patent applications are pending for delivery systems that would keep iron added to the ocean from being disbursed so widely that it would fall to concentrations too low to spur phytoplankton growth.

I don't know whether there is anything to this idea or not. It has been around for a long time and some studies have supported it and some have suggested that it wouldn't work. This National Geographic article just didn't provide much insight of value for making an assessment of the idea.

[CapelDodger]

I always thought it was The King's English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King's_English), after the book. Over time, people thought king's referred to the ruler, and so now it has become wrongly known as queen's english

Risk offending the sitting monarch, gawd bless 'er, for the sake of pedantry? Sod that.

[Harpoon]

I invited a British lady friend over for some bubble-and-squeak.

"Is that chair comfortable?" I asked. "Not too hard on your fanny?"

She jumped up, grabbed me by the bracers, hit me alongside the head with a spanner and pushed me out the window onto a passing lorry's bonnet.

I guess I should have served toad-in-the-hole.

Oh well, up the queen's.:p

[CapelDodger]

I don't know whether there is anything to this idea or not. It has been around for a long time and some studies have supported it and some have suggested that it wouldn't work. This National Geographic article just didn't provide much insight of value for making an assessment of the idea.

Part of the problem is that iron is not the only limiting nutrient in the oceans.

I have a scheme for seeding tropical oceans with white-washed cats. They'll float for a fair while, increasing oceanic albedo, while gradually releasing nutrients as they decompose. So we get increased albedo, an immediate reduction in the emissions caused by cat-food-miles, and increased CO2 uptake by phytoplankton. It's a win-win-win scenario.

All I need is a little start-up capital to run some large-scale trials.

[Meadmaker]

Part of the problem is that iron is not the only limiting nutrient in the oceans.

I have a scheme for seeding tropical oceans with white-washed cats. They'll float for a fair while, increasing oceanic albedo, while gradually releasing nutrients as they decompose. So we get increased albedo, an immediate reduction in the emissions caused by cat-food-miles, and increased CO2 uptake by phytoplankton. It's a win-win-win scenario.

All I need is a little start-up capital to run some large-scale trials.

If you want support for this in the United States, you'll have to substitute lawyers for the cats.

[Khyron]

If you want support for this in the United States, you'll have to substitute lawyers for the cats.


They want to add nutrients, not poisons.

[CapelDodger]

If you want support for this in the United States, you'll have to substitute lawyers for the cats.

Good idea; the first thing we do is kill all the lawyers. Cat-owners are a litigious bunch, so let's disarm them beforehand.

A world without cats or lawyers. This scheme sells itself.

[CapelDodger]

They want to add nutrients, not poisons.

For all their airs and graces, lawyers (like cats) are wormfood like the rest of us.

Apart from which ... what kind of person questions a scheme that would litter the oceans with whitewashed lawyers? Highly dubious behaviour. We might not stop at cats and lawyers, capisce? There's a big job to be done.

I've got Performance Artists pencilled in already.

[mhaze]

Gristmill has come out opposed (http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/7/12/12934/3007) to Planktos scheme, and they seem to have remarkably similar conclusions as mine on the matter.

Funny how some things do not pass the smell test either to AGW or so called denier....

[fuelair]

So .... if you can't rule it in or out then what do you think of giving carbon credits for this activity?

a. jail the scammers
b. look the other way
c. they are in my political party so it's okay with me

Always jail scammers - for a long time - and make them pay for the cost.:D

[mhaze]

Always jail scammers - for a long time - and make them pay for the cost.:D

I lean that way - they make their own party or group look bad.

Planktos obviously thinks they can't be touched, since they want to dump the iron dust in international waters.

Of course a lot can happen out there....

[bruto]

I invited a British lady friend over for some bubble-and-squeak.

"Is that chair comfortable?" I asked. "Not too hard on your fanny?"

She jumped up, grabbed me by the bracers, hit me alongside the head with a spanner and pushed me out the window onto a passing lorry's bonnet.

I guess I should have served toad-in-the-hole.

Oh well, up the queen's.:p

At least you didn't offer her a nice big spotted dick (http://homepage.mac.com/laddie/orangepeelmorris/spotted_orange-peel_dick.jpg).

[MilwaukeeMike]

It's an interesting idea.. If Iron doesn't work, maybe there is another material that does absorb carbon that we can use.

[Matt the Poet]

Hi,

Too much of a newbie to be allowed to post a link, but Realcilmate (I guess you can just Google it) has an article in its archives about exactly why the whole scheme is a load of cobblers. It's a worthwhile place to go for anyone wanting Climate Change facts straight from the mouths of the proffessionals.

[mhaze]

Hi,

Too much of a newbie to be allowed to post a link, but Realcilmate (I guess you can just Google it) has an article in its archives about exactly why the whole scheme is a load of cobblers. It's a worthwhile place to go for anyone wanting Climate Change facts straight from the mouths of the proffessionals.

Hello Matt.

Another time and place I'll criticize Realclimate, but I'm solidly with them, Gristmill, the EPA and a lot of other folks on this Planktos thing being

a very bad thing.

Algae blooms are not a good thing. Been there, seen them.

These days, you supeona their email, SMS and phone records, and pretty quick know if there was intentional con games or just misguided but well meaning people. Or does the NSA already know? ;)

[Matt the Poet]

Cheers mhaze (and thanks for not mentioning the typing spasm!)

I'd like to be there when you go for Realclimate - I tend to trust it mainly because it seems to occupy a well-argued middle ground between 'lalalalanothappening' and 'odeargodwereallgoingtodie'. Which probably isn't a good enough reason, so a considered debunking will be interesting...