Physics and education in the UK

[gnome]

Thought this deserved distribution:

http://www.wellingtongrey.net/articles/archive/2007-06-07--open-letter-aqa.html

[666]

I suspect this applies only to England (and Wales?) at the moment. I hope that the craziness doesn't spread to Scotland too.

[frank462]

:jaw-dropp

[wollery]

Sadly, physics education in the UK has been going this way for years.

What's really sad is that the DfE see this sort of change as a good thing, that by making it "easier" for kids to pass the GCSE it will encourage more of them to take up science at A level and as a degree subject. All that actually happens is that those who do take the A level find that they are ill equipped, and lose interest. The upshot of this is that even fewer students will take physics as a degree subject, and those who do will have to be taught all the basics when the get to University, increasing the stress and workload for lecturers.

I've seen this first hand, teaching physics labs in a UK University. Almost without exception the first year students couldn't set up an experiment when they had the instructions written in plain English, mainly because they'd never had to do so before. They didn't have the first idea of the importance of error calculation, and their reports were appalingly badly written until they'd got feedback for the first 4 or 5, because they'd never been taught how to write up an experiment.

Teaching students how to set up, conduct, evaluate and report on an experiment shouldn't be the job of a University. When I started as an undergraduate we all knew how to set them up from basic descriptions, how to assess & propogate the errors, and how to write a report, because we'd all been taught these things at O level, or even before that.

In summary, the DfE and the examining bodies are run by morons!

[gnome]

In my darker, conspiracy minded thoughts I wonder if it's a kind of class war, keeping those who cannot afford university from having real skills.

[Darat]

If this is accurate (I've only read the link not checked its claims) then it is terrible news.

Perhaps we should just alter the marking of the exam, you know award a pass for turning up, a B grade for getting your name right and an A reserved for those who got anything right?

[geni]

Sadly, physics education in the UK has been going this way for years.

What's really sad is that the DfE see this sort of change as a good thing, that by making it "easier" for kids to pass the GCSE it will encourage more of them to take up science at A level and as a degree subject. All that actually happens is that those who do take the A level find that they are ill equipped, and lose interest. The upshot of this is that even fewer students will take physics as a degree subject, and those who do will have to be taught all the basics when the get to University, increasing the stress and workload for lecturers.

Hmm you missed the effect of A2s. Students can now drop the subject (with the effect that maths appears to be dying quite quickly.


I've seen this first hand, teaching physics labs in a UK University. Almost without exception the first year students couldn't set up an experiment when they had the instructions written in plain English, mainly because they'd never had to do so before. They didn't have the first idea of the importance of error calculation, and their reports were appalingly badly written until they'd got feedback for the first 4 or 5, because they'd never been taught how to write up an experiment.

That probably has more to do with funding.

Nuffield chemistry is still around but six forms would stuggle to do it.


In summary, the DfE and the examining bodies are run by morons!

Eh I would have to see the full detial of the qestions to comment (for example the answer to the digital radio one should be to do with bandwidth).

[Liszt]

This is incredibly disturbing. That is what happens when you let a fundamentalist catholic run the education system (Ruth Kelly). she is even a member of Opus Dei, who are off the scale, as far as bonkers is concerned.

[geni]

This is incredibly disturbing. That is what happens when you let a fundamentalist catholic run the education system (Ruth Kelly). she is even a member of Opus Dei, who are off the scale, as far as bonkers is concerned.

Not really. In any case the catholic church tends to be pretty pro-science these days although they would probably favour a fact based approach rather than one based on questioning.

[wollery]

Hmm you missed the effect of A2s. Students can now drop the subject (with the effect that maths appears to be dying quite quickly.Yeah, never underestimate just how badly they can mess it up! The UK is going to end up with a generation of scientifically illiterate people.

That probably has more to do with funding.Not really. You can do some very good physics experiments with a small amount of cheap equipment, which teaches the students how to take a problem and set up an experimental procedure. As for assessing errors and writing up, they require no actual equipment, just a few lessons in theory, although doing it in experiments helps to drive it home.

Eh I would have to see the full detial of the qestions to comment (for example the answer to the digital radio one should be to do with bandwidth).The moronity of those setting the syllabus isn't in relation to the questions and answers on the exams, but on the removal of actual experimentation from the curriculum.

[geni]

Yeah, never underestimate just how badly they can mess it up! The UK is going to end up with a generation of scientifically illiterate people.

It's managed to deal with that for the last few centuries.


Not really. You can do some very good physics experiments with a small amount of cheap equipment, which teaches the students how to take a problem and set up an experimental procedure.

Equipment that may not be used by anyone else in the school and has to be stored. For a 6th form with maybe one small physics class this is an issue. Less of an issue for a colleges since they can run more and bigger classes. Of course the goverment appears to be trying to move all A levels to 6th forms.


The moronity of those setting the syllabus isn't in relation to the questions and answers on the exams, but on the removal of actual experimentation from the curriculum.

Eh GCSE level see health and safety.

[ile]

This is incredibly disturbing. That is what happens when you let a fundamentalist catholic run the education system (Ruth Kelly). she is even a member of Opus Dei, who are off the scale, as far as bonkers is concerned.

I do not have much sympathy for Opus Dei (although some good friends of mine belong to it), and I would not trust my childrens' education to them, but I think you are far off the mark here.

Opus Dei is indeed a very (very very very) conservative movement, and is much more interested in technology than science, but they are _not_ anti-science.
Furthermore, what is being criticized in the link proposed by the OP is the glibness and self-patting that are to be more associated to pseudomoderns than to Opus Dei; in fact, they go out of their way to criticize it and to attack it.

ile

[TriangleMan]

:jaw-dropp were those actual questions from the tests? For physics!?!

[Hindmost]

I thought we dumbed things down in the US...and we do. However, this is dissappointing. In my physics class, I always add calculations and full lab reports at all levels--the students hate it, but eventually a fair number get the picture when they move onto college. What I don't understand is why this keeps happening. As education evolves, one would think that it would get more difficult, not less.

arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrh

glenn:mad:

[tkingdoll]

A teacher friend told me one of the reasons his school doesn't do any practical experiments with the kids is that a) they're afraid of getting sued if something goes wrong and b) the kids are so out of control it's not worth the risk. Apparently this is a huge issue for chemistry.

But it's OK, all those other countries will sell us their medicine and gadgets in the future, and we Brits can become media advisors and telemarketers instead, and die bloated and hideous in a mess of our own Walkers Crisps.

[Hindmost]

A teacher friend told me one of the reasons his school doesn't do any practical experiments with the kids is that a) they're afraid of getting sued if something goes wrong and b) the kids are so out of control it's not worth the risk. Apparently this is a huge issue for chemistry.....

The chemistry teacher at my school does two weeks of lab safety for the very reason you state. Paranoia rules.

glenn

[Lensman]

This is a sad indictment of our education system - on a par with cutting out competitive sports because it was unfair to the ones who didn't win. :rolleyes:

Now they want to cut down on the number of exams for pupils under 16, because it would be too stressful.

I wouldn't blame this on Catholicism, some of the finest scientists are & were Jesuits. (I'm atheist, so I'm unbiased.)

[TriangleMan]

I had a hard time believing that a physics test would have questions like that so I spoke with a collegue who has his 12-yr old in a local school using the British curriculum (coincidentally this collegue also has a degree in physics). He told me that he also noticed this trend in his son's homework, that physics and other science was more about discussion or comparing and contrasting instead of any kind of mathematics. I sent him a link to the letter and he figured the content was probably on the mark.

[geni]

This is a sad indictment of our education system - on a par with cutting out competitive sports because it was unfair to the ones who didn't win. :rolleyes:

Didn't happen at my school (if only because it doesn't really work wwith boys)


Now they want to cut down on the number of exams for pupils under 16, because it would be too stressful.

Under the current other than the 11+ and a couple of science modules no exams under 16 should have any dirrect impact on the person takeing them. Thus reduceing the number is due to a rather different argument and does make a fair bit of sense.

[Lensman]

They're actually calling for testing a sample batch of children, so they can use that to gauge the childrens ability to absorb the lessons - as if testing little Johnny will give you an idea of how well Susie absorbs things. :rolleyes:

[666]

It's not just Physics, according to this (http://www.civitas.org.uk/press/prcsCorruption.php) press release.
The school curriculum has been corrupted by political interference, according to a new report from independent think-tank Civitas. The traditional subject areas have been hi-jacked to promote fashionable causes such as gender awareness, the environment and anti-racism, while teachers are expected to help to achieve the government's social goals instead of imparting a body of academic knowledge to their students.

[Madalch]

Perhaps we should just alter the marking of the exam, you know award a pass for turning up, a B grade for getting your name right and an A reserved for those who got anything right?

I once told some struggling students that they'd get a C+ if they at least showed up for the final exam.

You should have seen their faces when I started handing out cans of orange-flavoured pop.

[SopranoHarmony]

Okay, this is really disturbing to me. Why is our system of education going down the drain?

I'm a physics major, undergrad at the moment, and I can't even imagine not using math and direct calculations in my studies. Without them, it is so imprecise that we cannot even come close to describing the world around us.

And considering the safety of our experiments... it's the kids' own fault that they mess up the experiment. Gee, adult scientists take responsibility for their messes, and the high school experiments aren't on that big of a scale...

[geni]

They're actually calling for testing a sample batch of children, so they can use that to gauge the childrens ability to absorb the lessons - as if testing little Johnny will give you an idea of how well Susie absorbs things. :rolleyes:

Assumeing the sample has the same distribution as the general population it is not an unreasonable assumption.

[geni]

Okay, this is really disturbing to me. Why is our system of education going down the drain?

I'm a physics major, undergrad at the moment, and I can't even imagine not using math and direct calculations in my studies. Without them, it is so imprecise that we cannot even come close to describing the world around us.


Depends on which bit. I can molecules to a reasonable extent without useing numbers.


And considering the safety of our experiments... it's the kids' own fault that they mess up the experiment.

Not legaly.


Gee, adult scientists take responsibility for their messes,


Who resigned over what happened with Super-Kamiokande?


and the high school experiments aren't on that big of a scale...

Can still injure no problem.

[Madalch]

[High school chemistry experiments] Can still injure no problem.
The experiments I remember doing in high school were things like titrations of 0.1 mol/L acid with equally diluted base, and calorimetric experiments with the melting of ice and determination of heat capacity. You'd have to put real effort into hurting yourself with such things.

Do they still have home ec in schools? Are all sharp knives and sources of heat removed from the kitchens lest some student cut or burn themselves?

Do they learn to sew with blunt needles? Is the library off-limits to prevent paper cuts?

[Cynric]

It's not just Physics, according to this (http://www.civitas.org.uk/press/prcsCorruption.php) press release.

It's certainly happening with chemistry. Take out the facts, and insert debates about fashionable topics in the news. That's how come homeopathy is now in the chemistry syllabus, with the only source of information that's recommended being a pro-homeopathy website.

[SopranoHarmony]

The experiments I remember doing in high school were things like titrations of 0.1 mol/L acid with equally diluted base, and calorimetric experiments with the melting of ice and determination of heat capacity. You'd have to put real effort into hurting yourself with such things.
My high school's physics experiments frequently included driving remote control cars around and measuring acceleration and similar values...

Do they still have home ec in schools? Are all sharp knives and sources of heat removed from the kitchens lest some student cut or burn themselves?

Do they learn to sew with blunt needles? Is the library off-limits to prevent paper cuts?

There are still many home ec classes in, maybe, 8th grade? And I certainly cooked in some of my other classes back in high school...
What's the point of having a library if you can't access it?!?!?:book:

[wollery]

Yes, there are experiments that I did at school that you could only do with sensible, well behaved students, and even then there were risks, but there were several others that couldn't possibly be dangerous in any way shape or form.

I'm wondering how it can possibly be deemed a health and safety risk to measure the densities of different substances. You won't get a much simpler experiment, and it's ideal for teaching measurement errors as well. And then you get the students to write it up correctly.

20 such experiments, across the science curriculum, in a school year is easily enough for the sort of education in experimental set-up, error analysis and write up that I was talking about.

It's not health and safety, it's politics and stupidity.

[geni]

I'm wondering how it can possibly be deemed a health and safety risk to measure the densities of different substances. You won't get a much simpler experiment, and it's ideal for teaching measurement errors as well. And then you get the students to write it up correctly.


You could drop the weights on people.

[jimbob]

An interpretation of the new exam: (http://www.wellingtongrey.net/miscellanea/archive/2007-06-10--the-new-physics.html)

[geni]

An interpretation of the new exam: (http://www.wellingtongrey.net/miscellanea/archive/2007-06-10--the-new-physics.html)

Well technicaly 4C could be used to introduce the Tychonic system which in turn can be used to explain some of the theories of how science works but that is about it.

[TwoShanks]

A few points direct from a physics teacher (i.e. me):

1. The Year 10 course has been horribly diluted and much of the mathematics has been removed. There is also far too much emphasis on global warming (which appears in topics C1, P1, P2 and P3 to a certain extent) and a lot of guff debating and comparing and assessing safety in a horribly wooly non-statistical way. I'm particularly impressed with the way we debate endlessly, only to tell students that in an exam they must say that nuclear power is less of a risk than global warming - regardless of their actual opinion.

2. The Year 11 course (known as "Additional Science") is very similar to the old course, and contains significantly more actual physics and virtually no debates. The first topic, P4, discusses forces, motion, etc. but with very little emphasis on mathematical content.

The topics are P4 (Motion and Forces), P5 (Electrical Circuits) and P6 (The wave model of radiation). They are all extremely simple treatments of topics which could actually be interesting.

Personally I'm planning on doing the usual and injecting as much real physics into proceedings as possible. I'll therefore be including all the equations of motion, a bit of momentum, proper treatment of Newton's Laws, etc. Since the actual course is so easy there's plenty of time to do real physics.

My real fear is that starting in 2008 the A-Level Physics course is being revamped and "brought into line" with the GCSE course.

[Lensman]

Assumeing the sample has the same distribution as the general population it is not an unreasonable assumption.

But how do you tell WHICH ones are failing to absorb the information & need more tutoring? Wave a bloody wand over their heads? :rolleyes:

[geni]

But how do you tell WHICH ones are failing to absorb the information & need more tutoring? Wave a bloody wand over their heads? :rolleyes:

By useing you sample to develope a base line you can use in your tests.

[Lensman]

By using your sample to develop a base line you can use in your tests.

But you STILL have to conduct those tests on ALL the individual pupils, or you can't tell which individuals need more tuition, batch sampling will NOT tell you which individual pupils are struggling - just that some of them are!

[wollery]

You could drop the weights on people.Yeah, 'cause 20g of iron will do so much damage to a 15 year old's toe! :nope:

I hate health and safety people. :mad:

[geni]

Yeah, 'cause 20g of iron will do so much damage to a 15 year old's toe! :nope:

I hate health and safety people. :mad:

I think you would be better blameing the health and safetly officers who don't do their job.

[wollery]

I think you would be better blameing the health and safetly officers who don't do their job.The vast majority of Health and Safety Officers are surplus to requirement, and what they do is just annoy people and find ways to make themselves sound important.

Case in point, just after I started my PhD the research group moved to a new building, by which I mean that the building itself was new. We had a seminar conducted by the University's chief H&S guy. He spent 3 hours talking at us, and the upshot of it was - "You people know what you do, so you're in a better position than me to assess the health and safety risks than I am."

Of course, our biggest health and safety risk was from bad backs caused by sitting in the wrong position.

If instead he'd asked a senior member of staff what the risks were, he'd have been able to just send us a short memo, noting that we were in a very low risk environment and there was no real need for an inspection or visit from him.

I have no problem with the principle of health and safety, just the morons who seem to make up the majority of people who work in that field.

[TwoShanks]

I'm not sure where this idea about the disappearance of practical work in school science lessons is coming from, it's still a strong feature of the curriculum. Essentially we don't allow pupils to do the more dangerous practical work such as those involving concentrated acids, radioactive samples, carcinogens, etc.

Standard experiments involving Bunsen burners, chemical tests, circuit construction or indeed "20g of iron" are perfectly acceptable and done on a daily basis. For example, I have recently been teaching Environmental Chemistry to Year 8 (age 12-13 years). This involved pupil experiments such as heating soil samples using a Bunsen to calculate the water content, pH testing, etc. Year 7 have recently studied chemical reactions using dilute acids and bases, testing gases, etc.

In the last week I have also demonstrated more dangerous experiments such as Hydrogen balloon explosions, burning methane bubbles, "screaming jelly babies" (molten potassium chlorate + jelly baby) and the "gunshot can" (burning ethanol mixed with hydrogen peroxide, potassium permanganate added for a series of explosions).

The problem with the new GCSE courses is not that we can't do practical work due to health and safety officers, rather that the courses are so wishy-washy that we are required to spend far more time discussing global warming than teaching principles of science. The lack of content restricts the amount of practical work.

[wollery]

Whatever the reason for the drop in practical work and analytical approach to science it's definitely having an effect on the abilities of students starting undergraduate courses.

[phyz]

I've had the pleasure of teaching physics and Advanced Placement Physics B for 21 years (half my life!). My students spend a huge amount of time doing labs. (And yes Wollery, I feel your pain regarding students' abilities to read instructions carefully and follow them closely.) I transformed my AP class from a first-year course to a second-year course in part to work in more lab experiences. I have yet to experience a lab-related student injury.

Here in California, many physics teachers feel like government-mandated testing is a boot on their neck. In the US, the teacher has considerable lattitude regarding classroom instruction. Physics teachers were quite content to be free-ranging cowboys. Each teacher had the best program in the state, and if there was any doubt all you had to do was ask them! Physics teachers could count on being left alone by administrators. A school principal *might* tell a history/social studies teacher how to teach the Civil War, but I have yet to meet a physics teacher who's been given such advice on how best to teach conservation of angular momentum.

My California colleagues have no idea how good they've got it (comparatively). Many simply don't like the fact that the state has adopted content standards at all, and/or that there is a test for students at the end of the year. Many would prefer to teach motion, force, momentum, and energy for the whole year. That is, they're happy to leave any topic relating to thermodynamics to chemistry coursework, and to leave electricity, magnetism, light, and optics to... university work? The state wants physics students to learn something of force, motion, energy, momentum, thermodynamics, electricity, magnetism, waves (sound and light).

Many complain about details of the content-based test questions. I think their heads would explode if our test questions were anything like those found in the OP's link.

At this point, the mandated tests for physics students are low-stakes. No carrot for doing well; no stick for doing poorly. No real consequences of any kind for students or teachers.

Hence many teachers plan to continue teaching only mechanics. In the US, the teacher is still the king of the classroom.

Dean
http://phyz.org

[geni]

I have yet to experience a lab-related student injury.

While this would generaly be considered a good thing it suggests you are doing fairly safe experiments.

[TwoShanks]

The final Year 10 exam is tomorrow - if there's any interest then I'll scan all three exam papers so you can have a look.

Edit to add: I think you'll all be quite shocked by them.

[Madalch]

The final Year 10 exam is tomorrow - if there's any interest then I'll scan all three exam papers so you can have a look.

Edit to add: I think you'll all be quite shocked by them.

I'm interested.

[wollery]

Me too, be interesting to see what's changed in the 10 years since I quit teaching.

[TwoShanks]

Here are the paper scans - they're about 100k per page. Sorry about the size, I don't have any software to alter them.
Topics are C1 - Air Quality, P1 - Earth and the Universe, B1 - You and Your Genes
Paper 1:
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[TwoShanks]

Paper 2 topics C2 - Material Choices, P2 - Radiation and Life, don't know the name of B2.

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[TwoShanks]

Paper 3 topics C3 - Food Matters, P3 - Radioactive Materials, don't know B3 again.

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[Yllanes]

The final Year 10 exam is tomorrow - if there's any interest then I'll scan all three exam papers so you can have a look.

Edit to add: I think you'll all be quite shocked by them.

What age is Year 10? Because if it is what I think it is then 'shocked' doesn't begin to describe it.

[brodski]

What age is Year 10? Because if it is what I think it is then 'shocked' doesn't begin to describe it.

Year 10 is 14-15