Protocols of the elders of Zion

[MarkyX]

One of the most interesting things about the 9/11 Truth Movement is their grass roots. They do not wish to talk about the early years of the movement, mainly because it dealt with a lot of anti-semitism such as "No jews died in the world trade center" and Eric Hufschmid being the "Dylan Avery-lite" at the time. I would go so far as to say that people like Alex Jones and Eric help paved a way of using videos to get more people involved in their non-science cult and Dylan Avery simply took that idea and went further along with it.

This is a video called the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. A not-so-catchy title and directed by a j00. It's basically a documentary that goes into the realm of conspiracy theories dealing with jews, including "no jews died in the WTC", the dancing isrealis, and the Protocols themselves.

It's funny how the movement just doesn't talk about their great beginnings of the movement. I wonder why.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7169205203825782546&q=elders+of+zion

[Hyperviolet]

It is my understanding that this documentary was not produced until 2005, long after the truth movement had gained popularity.

For early works id say look at Alex Jones' 'Road To Tyranny' which came out months after the attacks.

Eric Hufschmid also released a video around the same time entitled Painful Deception, however, i think it more focused on the collapse of the towers as apose to the jewish angle that he currently obsesses with.

[MarkyX]

According to Amazon, it was released in 2004.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FAOCF4/ref=imdbap_t_0/105-6209116-9872446

The bigger and harder question would be, when was the footage recorded? Either way, I highly doubt this director would be focusing his attention about 9/11 or recording these people saying no jews died at the WTC if such a thing did not exist.

The matter of the fact is, the 9/11 Truth Movement was started by people who believed Jews had invovlement, either by the dancing isrealis, no jews dying, Bush's policy after 9/11, or the owner of WTC7. I would even dare say that if it weren't for the anti-semite roots of the movement, WTC7 would've never been looked at.

Then we look at the ADL who classified the theorists as Anti-Semites back in 2003 because they tend to hang around with Muslim Extremists and the nature of the theories.

[Hyperviolet]

According to Amazon, it was released in 2004.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FAOCF4/ref=imdbap_t_0/105-6209116-9872446

The bigger and harder question would be, when was the footage recorded? Either way, I highly doubt this director would be focusing his attention about 9/11 or recording these people saying no jews died at the WTC if such a thing did not exist.

The matter of the fact is, the 9/11 Truth Movement was started by people who believed Jews had invovlement, either by the dancing isrealis, no jews dying, Bush's policy after 9/11, or the owner of WTC7. I would even dare say that if it weren't for the anti-semite roots of the movement, WTC7 would've never been looked at.

Actually i think its release has more importance than its recording. Its recording gives you an idea of the creators mindset at the time, its effect or influence on the truth movement as a group is gauged on its release and the subsequent reaction to the piece.

As far as i know Alex Jones is credited as being the Grandfather of the truth movement, and many credit his film The Road To Tyranny as the thing that 'woke them up.' Not the Protocols of the Elders Of Zion.

[MarkyX]

But Alex Jones did use anti-semite resources to enforce his beliefs. He did interview several holocaust deniers in the past and has used American Free Press for his information.

Alex Jones might be not be an anti-semite or holocaust denier, but you can't deny the fact that he has been influenced by them. You can see the effects of this by the theories around Larry Silverstein and Israel or the in-fighting between the anti-semites and the rest of the movement. Lately, many consider Alex Jones and Dylan to be Zionist agents when they were no longer using American Free Press as their source, but before they were "heroes".

[Hyperviolet]

But Alex Jones did use anti-semite resources to enforce his beliefs. He did interview several holocaust deniers in the past and has used American Free Press for his information.

Alex Jones might be not be an anti-semite or holocaust denier, but you can't deny the fact that he has been influenced by them. You can see the effects of this by the theories around Larry Silverstein and Israel or the in-fighting between the anti-semites and the rest of the movement. Lately, many consider Alex Jones and Dylan to be Zionist agents when they were no longer using American Free Press as their source, but before they were classified as heroes.

I not denying Alex Jones' use of shoddy sources.

I am specifically replying to the topic at hand. Which i believe is slightly inaccurate. The OP suggest that this film is where the movement was bore and has now evolved to where it is at today, with a link to this film 'The Protocols..'
I am stating that this film did not come out till years after the 911 truth movement gained popularity through films like The Road To Tyranny, and when The Protocols did come out it had but not a fraction of the effect as a film like Loose Change did.

My contention : This piece itself had little influence amongst the truth movement, and the suggestion that it somehow has a big part in the movements history is inaccurate. As this film in no way 'started it all'
Some of the claims in it, however, have been floating around since the time of the attacks.

[MarkyX]

So why on earth am I seeing people still suggesting Jews didn't die at the WTC? It had to start from somewhere.

Not to mention that they did interview a neo-nazi who admitted that they were passing out flyers after 9/11 saying the Jews did it. These people are the same audience of Alex Jones, American Free Press, and other theories. In a sense they are leeching out of each other's work but come up with completely different conclusions despite looking at the same information (although scientifically inaccurate)

This video does portray that the early years of the movement were mainly anti-semite ones even though it doesn't directly focus on it. However, it still doesn't refute the fact the ADL considered these people anti-semite in 2003, an organization that takes it's job seriously. Plus there is also the UN even stating that there is uprise of anti-semitism shortly after 9/11. If Anti-semitism wasn't as big as an influence as you suggest for the movement, why would the ADL label them as such or UN acknowledge it?

[gumboot]

I not denying Alex Jones' use of shoddy sources.

I am specifically replying to the topic at hand. Which i believe is slightly inaccurate. The OP suggest that this film is where the movement was bore and has now evolved to where it is at today, with a link to this film 'The Protocols..'
I am stating that this film did not come out till years after the 911 truth movement gained popularity through films like The Road To Tyranny, and when The Protocols did come out it had but not a fraction of the effect as a film like Loose Change did.

My contention : This piece itself had little influence amongst the truth movement, and the suggestion that it somehow has a big part in the movements history is inaccurate. As this film in no way 'started it all'
Some of the claims in it, however, have been floating around since the time of the attacks.



Um... I think you should probably watch the film.

The Protocols of Zion is not a CTer film, it's a documentary investigating Conspiracy Theories, specifically The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion and related Anti-Semitic conspiracies.

This film did not "start it all", this film indicates that the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories themselves have their roots in anti-Semitism. In other words, this is not the roots of the Truth Movement. It is about the roots of the Truth Movement.

-Gumboot

[Hyperviolet]

So why on earth am I seeing people still suggesting Jews didn't die at the WTC? It had to start from somewhere.

Not to mention that they did interview a neo-nazi who admitted that they were passing out flyers after 9/11 saying the Jews did it. These people are the same audience of Alex Jones, American Free Press, and other theories. In a sense they are leeching out of each other's work but come up with completely different conclusions despite looking at the same information (although scientifically inaccurate)

This video does portray that the early years of the movement were mainly anti-semite ones even though it doesn't directly focus on it. However, it still doesn't refute the fact the ADL considered these people anti-semite in 2003, an organization that takes it's job seriously. If Anti-semitism wasn't as big as an influence as you suggest for the movement, why would the ADL label them as such?

Yes, (mis)information has to start somewhere... and the grossly misinformed people might actually have gotten this information from The Protocols. However, people saying this (or who picked this up from a 2004/2005 doc) are not the history of the truth movement, which starting pickin up in late 2001 and 2002. In fact, i believe most in the truth movement abhor the view by Humschmid and IAmTheWitness, some going as far to email the BBC about their film, The Conspiracy Files, which used the No Jews claim in the piece. Many just complained on forums and to the editor tht this was a strawman argument and not endorsed by their movement.

There is a distinction.

[MarkyX]

Then you can explain to me why the ADL would say the 9/11 theorists were anti-semites (back in 2003) or the UN was acknowledging the uprise of anti-semitism in a post-911 world?

[Hyperviolet]

Um... I think you should probably watch the film.

The Protocols of Zion is not a CTer film, it's a documentary investigating Conspiracy Theories, specifically The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion and related Anti-Semitic conspiracies.

This film did not "start it all", this film indicates that the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories themselves have their roots in anti-Semitism. In other words, this is not the roots of the Truth Movement. It is about the roots of the Truth Movement.

-Gumboot


Aha.. my mistake - the thread is titled The Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion. I assumed it was about that film.

My apologies!

[MarkyX]

Deleted

[Hyperviolet]

Then you can explain to me why the ADL would say the 9/11 theorists were anti-semites (back in 2003) or the UN was acknowledging the uprise of anti-semitism in a post-911 world?
Certainly, because there was conspiracy theories floating around about jewish involvment. We know this. However, Alex Jones (the so called Grandfather) gets called a zionist by these people because he isnt covering this angle. Or not exposing it 'truly.'

The 9/11 Truth Movement as we know it (the one who gew exponetially because of Loose Change) is not about all the theories surrounding the attacks.

The contention is that the Road To Tyranny come Loose Change inspired Truth Movement (the majority) no do not, as a group, hold these 'Its all Israel/Zionism' views. .

[gumboot]

Actually the film is called "Protocols of Zion".

A documentary about the rise of anti-Semitism in the USA after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001.
IMDB (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0436686/)

IMDB does not list a film called "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion".

The film is named in reference to a Russian book titled:

Протоколы сионских мудрецов

Which is usually translated as "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion".

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Russian: "Протоколы сионских мудрецов", or "Сионские протоколы", see also other titles) is an antisemitic pamphlet that purports to describe a Jewish plot to achieve world domination. It is one of the most well known and discussed examples of literary forgery.

Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion)

-Gumboot

[Hyperviolet]

Actually the film is called "Protocols of Zion".



IMDB does not list a film called "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion".

The film is named in reference to a Russian book titled:

Протоколы сионских мудрецов

Which is usually translated as "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion".



-Gumboot

Ok, thanks!

My point is that, regardless, the Zionist claims are usually not supported by the Truth Movement. Who tend to use the Alex Jones/Loose Change theories.

[MarkyX]

Certainly, because there was conspiracy theories floating around about jewish involvment. We know this. However, Alex Jones (the so called Grandfather) gets called a zionist by these people because he isnt covering this angle. Or not exposing it 'truly"


He wasn't called a Zionist before. AJ was being called a Zionist just recently, but during the early years of the movement he was left alone. Why? Because he was using anti-semite sources and interviewing these people. At the time, it was his audience and only piece of information. You must remember how AJ works is by getting information from others and twisting it to see how he views things. He never ever just makes up out a thin air; he takes a small piece of what is true and twists it 180 degrees.

You can several examples of this, from "Pull it" to "Moloch is an owl" type of deal. It's true Silverstein said "Pull it" and it's true there was an owl at the grove, but what Alex Jones interprets this information is false.

So looking at back of using anti-semite sources, he simply used American Free Press and other anti-semite folks but only selecting information that promotes his viewpoint. That's why you see Alex Jones or Loose Change use AFP to talk about Molton Steel or the Pentagon, but they will never mention the fact that Chris Bollyn has written numerous articles based on "Jews controlling everything"

Whether you like it or not, the anti-semites within the movement played a very huge part of starting the movement and still have a major influence over it's current members. If they were such a minority, they would've never received the attention by the ADL or the UN.

You want a test? Ask them what they think of Israel.

[Slayhamlet]

It is interesting to note that the "no Jews went to work at the WTC on 9/11" meme originated with the Lebanese satellite television station Al-Manar. Al-Manar also happens to be the propaganda arm of Hezbollah.

[gumboot]

Ok, thanks!

My point is that, regardless, the Zionist claims are usually not supported by the Truth Movement. Who tend to use the Alex Jones/Loose Change theories.



I think you're missing the point. The Truth Movement has always abandoned the really weak theories, at least in terms of the "mainstream" Truth Movement. For example they do not, collectively support the "pod" theory any more.

The Jewish-related anti-semitic 9/11 theories were the first 9/11 conspiracy theories. They started the whole ball rolling. Whether they are still widely supported or not is somewhat irrelevant.

Incidentally, if you ever want a laugh look into the CT claims put forth by Mohammed Atta's father in his CNN interview. There's some real doozies there. Ones I've never heard of before.

-Gumboot

[Liszt]

It is an excellent film. The best bit is when some white supremecist is told that Hitler is 1/4 Jewish, and he gets all upset!

[Hyperviolet]

I think you're missing the point. The Truth Movement has always abandoned the really weak theories, at least in terms of the "mainstream" Truth Movement. For example they do not, collectively support the "pod" theory any more.

The Jewish-related anti-semitic 9/11 theories were the first 9/11 conspiracy theories. They started the whole ball rolling. Whether they are still widely supported or not is somewhat irrelevant.

Incidentally, if you ever want a laugh look into the CT claims put forth by Mohammed Atta's father in his CNN interview. There's some real doozies there. Ones I've never heard of before.

-Gumboot

No, i know what your point is. Which is Old CT = The History the Truth movement. The difference is that the pod was openly endorsed by groups like NY911Truth, anti-semitism wasnt. Holograms and blue screens were also tossed about, however id never say it was once the face the Truth movement. Most people dismissed it, although it certainly was there.

If you equate All 9/11 Cts = The Truth Movement. Then okay, i dont. I refer to the majority view... the same way i dont claim the Truthers think no planes hit the towers. That is a fringe claim.

EDIT - id like to add that this is a very good documentary. It amazes me how im constantly shocked at how radical some people can be.

[MarkyX]

Which is Old CT = The History the Truth movement.


Yes, that's kind of it. Influences and actions an organization is considered history. For example, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941. Because of this, it's now part of Japan's history, as well as America's history for responding the attack and being a target.

Yes it's true that old theories like "No jews died in the WTC" aren't as popular as they used to be, but they were part of the beginning of the movement and some of it's members were interviewed by the leaders of today like Dylan Avery and Alex Jones.

They helped started the movement.

[Slayhamlet]

It is an excellent film. The best bit is when some white supremecist is told that Hitler is 1/4 Jewish, and he gets all upset!

While it's always good to make Nazis squirm, there's no good evidence indicating that Hitler had any Jewish ancestry.

[Liszt]

While it's always good to make Nazis squirm, there's no good evidence indicating that Hitler had any Jewish ancestry.

I know, but it was certainly worth it for the documentary. They guy was a real nutter who needed a jolt. Is he representative of the Master Race? Selling Nazi flags and whatnot. Urgh.

Even Eric Hufschmid has said "Why would anyone look up to Hitler? He was a loser"

[MaGZ]

One of the most interesting things about the 9/11 Truth Movement is their grass roots. They do not wish to talk about the early years of the movement, mainly because it dealt with a lot of anti-semitism such as "No jews died in the world trade center" and Eric Hufschmid being the "Dylan Avery-lite" at the time. I would go so far as to say that people like Alex Jones and Eric help paved a way of using videos to get more people involved in their non-science cult and Dylan Avery simply took that idea and went further along with it.

This is a video called the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. A not-so-catchy title and directed by a j00. It's basically a documentary that goes into the realm of conspiracy theories dealing with jews, including "no jews died in the WTC", the dancing isrealis, and the Protocols themselves.

It's funny how the movement just doesn't talk about their great beginnings of the movement. I wonder why.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7169205203825782546&q=elders+of+zion

Isn’t this the HBO production and isn’t HBO run by the Jews? If so, it says a lot about the objectivity of the ‘documentary.’

[MaGZ]

According to Amazon, it was released in 2004.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FAOCF4/ref=imdbap_t_0/105-6209116-9872446

The bigger and harder question would be, when was the footage recorded? Either way, I highly doubt this director would be focusing his attention about 9/11 or recording these people saying no jews died at the WTC if such a thing did not exist.

The matter of the fact is, the 9/11 Truth Movement was started by people who believed Jews had invovlement, either by the dancing isrealis, no jews dying, Bush's policy after 9/11, or the owner of WTC7. I would even dare say that if it weren't for the anti-semite roots of the movement, WTC7 would've never been looked at.

Then we look at the ADL who classified the theorists as Anti-Semites back in 2003 because they tend to hang around with Muslim Extremists and the nature of the theories.

Some Jews did die in the WTC. However, some Jews were warned of an attack in lower Manhattan that morning thanks to the Odigo message service.

[Liszt]

Isn’t this the HBO production and isn’t HBO run by the Jews? If so, it says a lot about the objectivity of the ‘documentary.’

Have you actually seen it? It is very objective. It even has the clip from Israeli TV with the "Dancing Isralis".

[MaGZ]

Then you can explain to me why the ADL would say the 9/11 theorists were anti-semites (back in 2003) or the UN was acknowledging the uprise of anti-semitism in a post-911 world?

The ADL is afraid of all conspiracy theories. To them, all conspiracy theories eventually lead to antisemitism.

[MaGZ]

It is interesting to note that the "no Jews went to work at the WTC on 9/11" meme originated with the Lebanese satellite television station Al-Manar. Al-Manar also happens to be the propaganda arm of Hezbollah.

Wasn’t this satellite station repeating the earlier claim that 4000 Israelis were in New York City that day and were unharmed? Didn’t this claim ordinated with the ADL and somehow got twisted into the myth that no Jews died on 9/11?

[MaGZ]

While it's always good to make Nazis squirm, there's no good evidence indicating that Hitler had any Jewish ancestry.

The Jews once claimed Christopher Columbus was Jewish, meaning they have a right to rule over America.

[gumboot]

Some Jews did die in the WTC. However, some Jews were warned of an attack in lower Manhattan that morning thanks to the Odigo message service.


Um, no. Some Jews in Israel received a threatening message about "something happening soon". No one was warned.

-Gumboot

[MaGZ]

Have you actually seen it? It is very objective. It even has the clip from Israeli TV with the "Dancing Isralis".

Well that would be quit interesting, since one of the dancing Israelis claimed on Israeli television that they were there to film and document the event–meaning prior knowledge of the attacks.

[Liszt]

Um, no. Some Jews in Israel received a threatening message about "something happening soon". No one was warned.

-Gumboot

That´s the first I´ve heard about that. Source please? Why would people in Israel be sent a message like that?

[boloboffin]

Well that would be quit interesting, since one of the dancing Israelis claimed on Israeli television that they were there to film and document the event–meaning prior knowledge of the attacks.

Um, no. They claimed that that's what they were doing, not that they were specifically there to do it. You should watch the documentary. It bends over backwards to be objective. I was really quite impressed.

[boloboffin]

That´s the first I´ve heard about that. Source please? Why would people in Israel be sent a message like that?

Yes! Why would anyone in Israel be tipped off about "something happening soon"? No terrorist attacks ever happen in Israel, so the message must have been about the 9/11 attacks.

[CptColumbo]

Well that would be quit interesting, since one of the dancing Israelis claimed on Israeli television that they were there to film and document the event–meaning prior knowledge of the attacks.
Did you see the video of them saying this, because that is not what they say.

[Liszt]

Yes! Why would anyone in Israel be tipped off about "something happening soon"? No terrorist attacks ever happen in Israel, so the message must have been about the 9/11 attacks.

Fair enough, but then why would Gumboot mention it in the context of 911?

[boloboffin]

Fair enough, but then why would Gumboot mention it in the context of 911?

Gumboot was responding to some trash that MaGZ had drug in.

[MaGZ]

Um, no. Some Jews in Israel received a threatening message about "something happening soon". No one was warned.

-Gumboot

From The Anthrax Mystery: Solved

A newspaper article that appeared in Haaretz, an Israeli paper, further indicates prior knowledge of the coming attack. Haaretz reported two Israeli employees of Odigo—an instant messaging company with offices near the World Trade Center and also in Israel—received a warning two hours before the attack. This, roughly, would have been when the hijackers were seen boarding their planes. The Mossad, in order to minimize Jewish losses around the World Trade Center area, could have easily issued the warning via the instant message service. The Washington Post reported, “The Odigo service includes a feature called People Finder that allows users to seek out and contact others based on certain interests or demographics.” Those whose interests relate to Israel or Jewish topics could have received the message—even if the persons were unknown to the sender. On that day, the Odigo warning may have saved many Jewish lives.



Sources
“Odigo says workers were warned of attack,” by Yuval Dror, Haaretz, Sept 26, 2001.
“Internet Firm Received Message Predicting Terror Attacks in U.S.” Deutsche Presse-Agentur, September 26, 2001.
“Odigo Clarifies Attack Messages,” Newsbytes (Washington Post), September 28, 2001.

[gumboot]

That´s the first I´ve heard about that. Source please? Why would people in Israel be sent a message like that?

Read (http://www.911myths.com/html/odigo.html).

I imagine Israelis probably get sent threats about attacks all the time.

Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_against_Israel_in_2001) is a sampling of terrorist attacks against Israel in 2001 which resulted in deaths.

Israel has been suffering terrorist attacks amounting to the equivalent of several 9/11s every single year for some time. (Relative to per capita, the Israeli 2001 death toll would be the equivalent of 8,500 Americans being killed in terrorist attacks in 2001). The 2003 toll would be the same as 16,000 Americans being killed in terrorist attacks.

It wouldn't surprise me if Israelis get threats and warnings of attacks on a daily basis.

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

Fair enough, but then why would Gumboot mention it in the context of 911?


I didn't. MaGZ raised the issue. In case you haven't noticed MaGZ hates Jews and blames them for everything. It's disgusting.

-Gumboot

[MaGZ]

That´s the first I´ve heard about that. Source please? Why would people in Israel be sent a message like that?

The Mossad had the hijackers under surveillance and saw them boarding the planes. A Mossad agent issued the Odigeo warning.

The Anthrax Mystery: Solved

http://irish-nationalism.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2082

[gumboot]

From The Anthrax Mystery: Solved


Sources
“Odigo says workers were warned of attack,” by Yuval Dror, Haaretz, Sept 26, 2001.
“Internet Firm Received Message Predicting Terror Attacks in U.S.” Deutsche Presse-Agentur, September 26, 2001.
“Odigo Clarifies Attack Messages,” Newsbytes (Washington Post), September 28, 2001.



Your anti-Semitism is vomit-inducing.

-Gumboot

[Liszt]

Fair points everyone.

Anyway, here´s a weird one. I just spent 5 minutes looking for the clip from Israeli TV (it has been taken down from You Tube) and a site called "disease-information" said it had it.

I went there, and my PC was splattered with viruses. Big time, **** off ones.

So be warned!

edit - the quote is an ambigous "Our purpose was to document the event."

[boloboffin]

From The Anthrax Mystery: Solved


Sources
“Odigo says workers were warned of attack,” by Yuval Dror, Haaretz, Sept 26, 2001.
“Internet Firm Received Message Predicting Terror Attacks in U.S.” Deutsche Presse-Agentur, September 26, 2001.
“Odigo Clarifies Attack Messages,” Newsbytes (Washington Post), September 28, 2001.

How interesting. Someone just recommended that book to me over at DU. I guess it's a coincidence.

Love that last article. Two workers in Israel got the message. I'm trying to remember the parts of the 9/11 attack that happened in Israel.

Diamandis today in a telephone interview also said the warning message did not identify the World Trade Center as the attack target.

...He did confirm that soon after the terrorist attacks on New York, the Odigo employees notified their management, who contacted Israeli security services. In turn, the FBI was informed of the instant-message warning.

So, contrary to the Haaretz article, the towers were NOT specifically mentioned in the message.

And the two workers, instead of warning all of their Joooooooo buddies, informed their managers, who informed the authorities - all after the attacks in New York happened.

Can't you come up with a real reason to hate on da Jooooooooos?

[MaGZ]

Um, no. They claimed that that's what they were doing, not that they were specifically there to do it. You should watch the documentary. It bends over backwards to be objective. I was really quite impressed.

The Forward said the FBI learned thru interrogations two of the dancing Israelis were Mossad agents. So maybe they were there to document the attacks. All spy agencies documents their successes for their own archives.

[MaGZ]

Your anti-Semitism is vomit-inducing.

-Gumboot

Why not just look at the facts?

[MaGZ]

Yes! Why would anyone in Israel be tipped off about "something happening soon"? No terrorist attacks ever happen in Israel, so the message must have been about the 9/11 attacks.

The warning was about an attack that was coming that morning in Manhattan. It was general in description, not specific. The WTC was not mentioned.

[Liszt]

The Forward said the FBI learned thru interrogations two of the dancing Israelis were Mossad agents. So maybe they were there to document the attacks. All spy agencies documents their successes for their own archives.

If you are serious about trying to prove a link here, you should research PROMIS database software. It is (was?) used by Intel agencies, was stolen, and has basically a colourful history.

Here´s wonkypedia´s below par version

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecutor%27s_Management_Information_System

Because this is real life spy V spy, it is hard to find out good info. Jim Keith´s book on Danny Caselaro is a good start, but you would also need to track down old issues of Steamshovel Press, which are not available on the Internet. (Caserlaro and Keith are both dead now)

I´m not even sure if PROMIS is still used, or was in use in 2001. It is still interesting history, and we´ll probably know more about it in 50 years or whatever.

[Slayhamlet]

Wasn’t this satellite station repeating the earlier claim that 4000 Israelis were in New York City that day and were unharmed? Didn’t this claim ordinated with the ADL and somehow got twisted into the myth that no Jews died on 9/11?

No. The original Al-Manar article claimed 4000 Israelis (yes, Israelis, not Jews) were warned not to go to work at the WTC on 9/11. It is a bizarre claim, but that's what it says:

(AL-MANAR Television - Beirut Lebanon) With the announcement of the attacks at the World Trade Center in New York, the international media, particularly the Israeli one, hurried to take advantage of the incident and started mourning 4,000 Israelis who work at the two towers. Then suddenly, no one ever mentioned anything about those Israelis and later it became clear that they remarkably did not show up in their jobs the day the incident took place.

My emphasis.
Source (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/israel.htm)
Judenfrei Source (http://www.paldf.net/forum/showthread.php?t=359), in case Snopes is too Jewish for you.

It seems unlikely that 4000 Israelis ever worked at 9/11 at any time, so it's not unreasonable to assume that they are conflating "Israeli" with "Jew". This article is only the English version of the original Arabic, so maybe they just did a sloppy job of translating it. Of course, none of that stopped every conspiracist and anti-Semite on the Internet from replacing the absurd "4000 Israelis" with the slightly less absurd "4000 Jews". They are not critical thinkers, after all.

[boloboffin]

The Forward said the FBI learned thru interrogations two of the dancing Israelis were Mossad agents. So maybe they were there to document the attacks. All spy agencies documents their successes for their own archives.

I love it when anti-Semites quote respected Yiddish-American newspapers.

I also love it when anti-Semites back away from their categorical statements with a "so maybe."

Let's assume the Forward is right about the moving company being a Mossad front. The Forward also says that the unit was there to spy on local Arab targets. So if a Mossad unit is in New York for a completely unrelated reason, and the attacks happen, they aren't going to pull out their cameras and document the event?

There is only one source for your assertion that the Mossad was documenting a successful mission: your own foul imaginings. You have zero facts to support this. Zero, zip, nada.

[Slayhamlet]

The Jews once claimed Christopher Columbus was Jewish, meaning they have a right to rule over America.

So, since Christopher Columbus was actually Genoese, that means Italy has the right to rule over America? Bizarre.

No one but a paranoid fascist would make such a connection.

[boloboffin]

The warning was about an attack that was coming that morning in Manhattan. It was general in description, not specific. The WTC was not mentioned.

Proof?

[MaGZ]

No. The original Al-Manar article claimed 4000 Israelis (yes, Israelis, not Jews) were warned not to go to work at the WTC on 9/11. It is a bizarre claim, but that's what it says:



My emphasis.
Source (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/israel.htm)
Judenfrei Source (http://www.paldf.net/forum/showthread.php?t=359), in case Snopes is too Jewish for you.

It seems unlikely that 4000 Israelis ever worked at 9/11 at any time, so it's not unreasonable to assume that they are conflating "Israeli" with "Jew". This article is only the English version of the original Arabic, so maybe they just did a sloppy job of translating it. Of course, none of that stopped every conspiracist and anti-Semite on the Internet from replacing the absurd "4000 Israelis" with the slightly less absurd "4000 Jews". They are not critical thinkers, after all.

It’s not a bizarre claim if all 4000 Israelis were connected to the Odigo message service.

[uk_dave]

Let's assume the Forward is right about the moving company being a Mossad front. The Forward also says that the unit was there to spy on local Arab targets. So if a Mossad unit is in New York for a completely unrelated reason, and the attacks happen, they aren't going to pull out their cameras and document the event?


And of course the mossad agents needed to document the event because they couldn't trust the footage shot by the major tv networks....what with all the realtime video fakery of planes..... or something. :boggled:

[Slayhamlet]

It’s not a bizarre claim if all 4000 Israelis were connected to the Odigo message service.

So 4000 Israelis didn't show up for work at the WTC that morning? Is that really what you are saying?

[MaGZ]

I love it when anti-Semites quote respected Yiddish-American newspapers.

I also love it when anti-Semites back away from their categorical statements with a "so maybe."

Let's assume the Forward is right about the moving company being a Mossad front. The Forward also says that the unit was there to spy on local Arab targets. So if a Mossad unit is in New York for a completely unrelated reason, and the attacks happen, they aren't going to pull out their cameras and document the event?

There is only one source for your assertion that the Mossad was documenting a successful mission: your own foul imaginings. You have zero facts to support this. Zero, zip, nada.


To you it is all just a coincidence.

[parky76]

MaGz-

1. the Odigo warning was sent to 2 people. They were not in the United States. The warning mentioned nothing about 9-11, airplanes, NYC, or the WTC. It simply said something bad may happen, soon. But you already knew ALL of this..didn't you MaGz?

2. The 4,000 Israelis issue started when the Jerusalem Post said that 4,000 Israelis were believed to be working in the area around the WTC on 9-11. The anti-Semites at Al-Manar turned that into "4,000 Israelis were warned not to go to work". There is no evidence that any of them got any sort of specific warning. But you already knew that, didn't you MaGz?

3. There have been theories that Christopher Columbus was a Jew. The day that he sailed from Spain just happened to fall on a Jewish holiday. Many Jews were being forced from Spain as part of the Inquisition. It is a bit of an urban legend amoung Jews. How Columbus being a Jew means that the Jews should rule America..is beyong me. But you are a Nazi so I guess it makes sense.

4. The 4 "dancing Israelis" said they were there to document event. They did not say they knew in advance of the attacks, or set up their equipment cause they knew something was going to happen. Everyone else in the area who was filming the attacks was also there to "document the event". Only a Nazi seeks to twist their use of proper English to suggest foreknowledge. But you knew that, didn't you MaGz?

[boloboffin]

Well, no. Of course the Mossad itself could rely on the footage from the networks - they were probably recording that at the same time. But how was this alleged unit supposed to know that?

Actually, the IDing of this group as Mossad puts an incredibly human face on the spy network. The three stupid kids on that Israeli television station had a severe lapse of judgment and got the unit busted. And thus the foul fantasies of anti-Semites all over the world got a choice little nugget to worry over. These guys...weren't they across the Hudson? If the Mossad HAD planned 9/11 and wanted to document it, would it have been that hard to rent a space in Manhattan? You know, for a better view? And then, they could have filmed inside where any asinine reactions wouldn't have been observed by anyone.

No, if this was a Mossad unit (and the only evidence is an anonymous source in the Forward article), then all appearances are that the attacks took them by surprise, they set up their cameras, and got busted. Hardly the actions of an agency conducting a highly precise false flag operation at the exact same moment...

[MaGZ]

And of course the mossad agents needed to document the event because they couldn't trust the footage shot by the major tv networks....what with all the realtime video fakery of planes..... or something. :boggled:

You would not have the first plane crash documented by the major TV networks.

[peteweaver]

Why not just look at the facts?

Excuse me, but I think he did.... Try practicing what you preach Magz. ;)

[boloboffin]

To you it is all just a coincidence.

Coincidence is the way 99.999999999999999% of the universe's events relate to one another. Actually, there should be a few more nines at the end of that. Like around a billion or so.

[Slayhamlet]

You would not have the first plane crash documented by the major TV networks.

Except witnesses only saw them recording the event well after the first plane hit.

[MaGZ]

Well, no. Of course the Mossad itself could rely on the footage from the networks - they were probably recording that at the same time. But how was this alleged unit supposed to know that?

Actually, the IDing of this group as Mossad puts an incredibly human face on the spy network. The three stupid kids on that Israeli television station had a severe lapse of judgment and got the unit busted. And thus the foul fantasies of anti-Semites all over the world got a choice little nugget to worry over. These guys...weren't they across the Hudson? If the Mossad HAD planned 9/11 and wanted to document it, would it have been that hard to rent a space in Manhattan? You know, for a better view? And then, they could have filmed inside where any asinine reactions wouldn't have been observed by anyone.

No, if this was a Mossad unit (and the only evidence is an anonymous source in the Forward article), then all appearances are that the attacks took them by surprise, they set up their cameras, and got busted. Hardly the actions of an agency conducting a highly precise false flag operation at the exact same moment...

The Mossad did not plan 9/11. They were most likely invited into the US by the CIA to keep a eye on Atta and his group. The Mossad learned of the planned attack but did not inform the CIA.

[boloboffin]

The Mossad did not plan 9/11. They were most likely invited into the US by the CIA to keep a eye on Atta and his group. The Mossad learned of the planned attack but did not inform the CIA.

And your evidence for this is?

[parky76]

If you believe that the Mossad would actually send a team of operatives to film the WTC attacks, in broad daylight, and then celebrate it, in broad daylight, is to believe that the Mossad WANTED to get caught.

If the Mossad REALLY wanted to "document the event", they would have rented an apartment, rented a helicopter, and filmed the event from there.

Can someone give me a good reason as to WHY the Mossad would WANT to get caught?

[Slayhamlet]

And your evidence for this is?

...links to some Nazi sites.

[MaGZ]

And your evidence for this is?

The CIA asked the Hamburg police to keep an eye on the al-Qaeda cell before they came to America. It is speculation on my part that the CIA may have asked the Mossad to watch the cell once it arrived in America. As you know there are few Arabic language experts in American intelligence services, not so with the Israelis.

[StoneWT]

I don't see what the hubbub is. Anti-Semites have been around for thousands of years. They always try to attach their views to tragic events. The '9/11 truth' movement wasn't started by them. Talking about 'roots' and such just smacks of conspiracy thinking.

[boloboffin]

The CIA asked the Hamburg police to keep an eye on the al-Qaeda cell before they came to America. It is speculation on my part that the CIA may have asked the Mossad to watch the cell once it arrived in America. As you know there are few Arabic language experts in American intelligence services, not so with the Israelis.

Since it is speculation on your part, why do you insist on stating these things as if they were unarguable facts?

[parky76]

In the minds of conspiracy theorists, speculation is as good as fact. What "could have been" is as good as "what did happen".

is there a psychological explenation for such types of thinking?

[gumboot]

It’s not a bizarre claim if all 4000 Israelis were connected to the Odigo message service.


Odigo had 80 employees in their New York office, which was not in the WTC.

-Gumboot

[parky76]

Only two Odigo employees recieved the message. They were in Israel. There is no evidence...zero...nada...nothing...that anyone in the WTC recieved any warning.

But MaGz, and his fascist friends, all know this. :D

-I'm still waiting for anyone to name one single Israeli, one single Jew, who was warned not to be at the WTC on 9-11. Oh when, will they find one single person?

[SpitfireIX]

I'm still waiting for anyone to name one single Israeli, one single Jew, who was warned not to be at the WTC on 9-11. Oh when, will they find one single person?


All the Jews who worked in the WTC were warned to stay away, but then they were murdered by the Mossad to keep them from telling anyone about their having been warned. :D

[parky76]

lolololol

You know, the funny thing is, I am a Jew, and no one told me to stay away from the WTC. But, coincidentaly, I just happened to be in Hong Kong on 9-11. Hmmmmmm....

Even more intriguing, I was in DC when flight 587 came down in the Rockaways. So I just happened to avoid two disasters in a row.

My mom always told me I was special.

[Donal]

Where were you when the WTC was attacked the first time?

Where were you when the Murrah building in OKC was blown up?

Where were you when the USS Liberty was hit?

What were doing during the Pearl Harbor attack?

I bet you were so very conveniently away from all of these places at the right time.

[SpitfireIX]

Where were you when the Lusitania was sunk?

Where were you when William McKinley was assassinated?

Where were you when the USS Maine blew up?

Where were you when James Garfield was assassinated?

Where were you when Abraham Lincoln was assassinated?

I'll bet you were in on all of them!

[parky76]

Where were you when the WTC was attacked the first time?

Where were you when the Murrah building in OKC was blown up?

Where were you when the USS Liberty was hit?

What were doing during the Pearl Harbor attack?

I bet you were so very conveniently away from all of these places at the right time.

I was in high school when the WTC was first attacked.
I was in West Virginia when the Murrah building was hit.
I was'nt alive when Pearl Harbor was hit.
I wasn't alive when the Liberty was struck.

I must be in on it then.

[gtc]

What is Dylan's link to anti-semitism?

[Foolmewunz]

lolololol

You know, the funny thing is, I am a Jew, and no one told me to stay away from the WTC. But, coincidentaly, I just happened to be in Hong Kong on 9-11. Hmmmmmm....

Even more intriguing, I was in DC when flight 587 came down in the Rockaways. So I just happened to avoid two disasters in a row.

My mom always told me I was special.

Hmmm? I'm a hereditary Jew, in Hong Kong, who "just happened" to be in New York, witnessing 9/11 on that day!

Hmmm? Ve-ry interesting! I am beginning to see patterns here Mr. Parky-Person - or whatever your real name is?

So where were you when the "Liberty" was attacked?
Huh? No answer! I thought not!
Further proof!

:crazy:

MaGZ, why do you make me feel like Nicholson in Batman.... "Where does he get those great toys?" Do you just keep a convenient file of batcrap crazy evil jooz theories next to the computer? No, actually, I'll bet you've got shortcuts to them on your desktop, right? One click and you're off to Neverneverland!

I tried linking to some of your pet sites, but my firewall warns me...

Forbidden: The Link You Selected is So Full of Crap That We Would Have to Come Stick and Icepick in Your Eye if We Were To Allow You to View it.

[westprog]

If you believe that the Mossad would actually send a team of operatives to film the WTC attacks, in broad daylight, and then celebrate it, in broad daylight, is to believe that the Mossad WANTED to get caught.

If the Mossad REALLY wanted to "document the event", they would have rented an apartment, rented a helicopter, and filmed the event from there.

Can someone give me a good reason as to WHY the Mossad would WANT to get caught?

Or why they would want to "document the event"? Did they expect that the networks would say "Hmm. Plane hit the WTC - on the other hand, Paris Hilton has a new frock, so we've no camera crews free."

The Israelis - if they were Mossad agents or not - filmed the WTC because they were there, and they had a camera. What would have been quite suspicous would have been if someone had been on the scene of one of the most momentous events in American history and hadn't filmed it.

[MarkyX]

What is Dylan's link to anti-semitism?

Chris Bollyn, American Free Press. His internet video would not exist without it.