Adventures with AE911truth

[Calcas]

So, which is it, Doug- do the other members of the AE911Truth organization believe- as you do- that the FDNY was in on it, or are they disinfo agents or something?


Lets ask them. Is anyone signed up over there? Or are they another Balsamo type group that bans anyone that doesn't drink their kool-aid?

[Civilized Worm]

Its impossible for them to appear in public because what they would have to say would thoroughly discredit the USA and its president and likely cause something close to a revolution.


So you concede that they have no in fact "shown up alive". At last we are getting somewhere.


When that sort of thing happens people get killed off instead. Don't you know any history of your own country ? Every monetary reformer except Jackson was killed and Jackson got awfully lucky because two pistols did not go off.

You should listen to a few of Kennedys speeches before they killed him.


What part of "Glasgow, Scotland" has you confused?


The problem is that members of this "bowel movement" that supports the official version just do not understand the historical and sociologic meaning of 9/11. Many people think that this set of events set in motion will ultimately benefit them.


I'm not really interested in the historical sociological meaning right now, I'm interested in the facts.


I'm still waiting to hear when it was admitted/proven to be true that AIDS was created by "higher powers". After all it's not like Alex Jones would just make something like that up, what with him not being a conspiracy theorist and everything.

[R.Mackey]

Care to provide some proof of this?

The "perimeter columns could handle 20 times their normal load" is a badly butchered quote-mine from comments that John Skilling made to the Engineering News Record in 1964. He is quoted as saying the live loads on the perimeter columns could be increased by 2000% before the perimeter columns would fail.

Assuming the quote is even accurate, this ignores, of course, the fact that the perimeter columns were sized for the overall load, e.g. the dead and superimposed dead loads, live loads, and also the wind loads. If you juggle the math such that every drop of margin gets treated as live load, i.e. on a windless day, you might get to a factor of 20. However, even that is suspect.

In other words, it's a lie. A stupid one.

So who vetted Mr. Plumb's credentials, I wonder? Who watches the watchers? :D

[Brainache]

So who vetted Mr. Plumb's credentials, I wonder? Who watches the watchers? :D

I'm not sure, but I think he might be a Professor. My friend Colonel Mustard told me.

[Furcifer]

[snip] The core is built to a factor of being able to support 6 times their normal weight [snip]

Isn't this wrong as well? I thought the core was 6 times as "strong" as the perimeter, and that's based on Greenings rough estimate using surface area.

[Dave Rogers]

So who vetted Mr. Plumb's credentials, I wonder? Who watches the watchers? :D

A good point - it's not necessarily reasonable to expect Mr. Average 15-year old twoofer to know the difference between live and dead loads (actually, 47 year old physicists have been known to need it clarifying;) ), but Doug Plumb is supposed to be a member of an architects' and engineers' group. One should be able to expect him to understand the basic concepts involved.

Dave

[R.Mackey]

You can't go by surface area alone... the perimeter columns used steel with up to 100 ksi strength, whereas the core used much more typical A36 and similar alloys.

The design for the WTC Towers had the perimeter and the core each carrying about half of the total gravity loads in normal service. We need to define "strong" more precisely before we go into further detail.

[Furcifer]

You can't go by surface area alone... the perimeter columns used steel with up to 100 ksi strength, whereas the core used much more typical A36 and similar alloys.

The design for the WTC Towers had the perimeter and the core each carrying about half of the total gravity loads in normal service. We need to define "strong" more precisely before we go into further detail.

Yah, this is how it gets people confused. To be honest even with a background in building I'm not exactly sure what loads were handled by the "core" and what were handled by the "exterior". And even then, those loads are heavily dependent on the truss connections. Long story short, you couldn't take the material from the two buildings and build one 834m tall mega building, which should kinda put it into perspective for the laymen.

[SpitfireIX]

The woo runs deep with this one.


[Darth Vader]The woo is strong with this one.[/Darth Vader]

[T.A.M.]

The mark is there, that is for sure...

TAM:)

[Newtons Bit]

He's not that far off, just a factor of 2. The core columns had a strength of about 3 times just the dead load of the building above.

[peteweaver]

He's not that far off, just a factor of 2. The core columns had a strength of about 3 times just the dead load of the building above.

Yes, and the core columns were damaged, and then exposed to fire.

Hot finished carbon steel begins to lose strength at temperatures above 300°C and reduces in strength at steady rate up to 800°C. The small residual strength then reduces more gradually until the melting temperature at around 1500°C. This behaviour is similar for hot rolled reinforcing steels. For cold worked steels including reinforcement, there is a more rapid decrease of strength after 300°C (Lawson & Newman 1990). In addition to the reduction of material strength and stiffness, steel displays a significant creep phenomena at temperatures over 450°C. The phenomena of creep results in an increase of deformation (strain) with time, even if the temperature and applied stress remain unchanged (Twilt 1988). High temperature creep is dependent on the stress level and heating rate. The occurrence of creep indicates that the stress and the temperature history have to be taken into account in estimating the strength and deformation behaviour of steel structures in fire. Including creep explicitly within analytical models, is complex. For simple design methods, it is widely accepted that the effect of creep is implicitly considered in the stress-strain-temperature relationships.
The thermal properties of steel at elevated temperatures are found to be dependent on temperature and are less influenced by the stress level and heating rate. This simplified the consideration of the thermal properties of steel in design methods.

As an 'engineer' Doug and his gang should know about this.


They should also know that at 650 degrees C hot rolled carbon steel has less than half its normal tensile strength, and that its martensitic properties degrade.

The south tower was hit second but collapsed first, why was that Dougie?

Could it be that the load on the damaged section was greater ?

How could flammable explosive charges survive the intense fires present between floors 82 & 93 of WTC 2, and floors 95 - 103 of WTC 1 ?

How could the detonator for a 'mini nuke' survive those fires unscathed ?

Come on Doug these questions should be easy for you.

[Doug Plumb]

By 6 and 20 times the gravitational load, I mean 6 and 20 times the gravitational load. If there is a live load then it is typically much less than 6 and 20 times respectively the gravitational or "dead" load. Live load occurs from wind, earth quakes, etc - its vibrations. Wind wasn't heavy that day.

I get those figures from Jim Hoffman and from an engineering report referenced in David Ray Griffins book from ASCE.

I don't believe that any of you have read the full NIST report.

[Furcifer]

I don't believe that any of you have read the full NIST report.

Oh your gonna hear about this statement. I think you might be surprised. (I haven't, I'm only about half way through,1, 1-2,1-2A,1-3,1-3A,1-3C,1-5G,1-6,1-6D, maybe only 1/4?)

[Newtons Bit]

By 6 and 20 times the gravitational load, I mean 6 and 20 times the gravitational load. If there is a live load then it is typically much less than 6 and 20 times respectively the gravitational or "dead" load. Live load occurs from wind, earth quakes, etc - its vibrations. Wind wasn't heavy that day.

I get those figures from Jim Hoffman and from an engineering report referenced in David Ray Griffins book from ASCE.

I don't believe that any of you have read the full NIST report.

I don't think you've read ASCE7 which defines what those loads are.
Live loads are those loads produced by the use and occupancy of the building or other structure and do not include construction or environmental loads such as wind load, snow load, rain load, earthquake load, flood load, or dead load

You may think you're hot stuff in EE, you may even be the best EE in the world. But you still don't even know basic definitions of loading for structural. The perimeter columns are moment frames, their design is not controlled by vertical loads, but rather bending moments.

If YOU had read the NIST report, you would have learned that the core columns had a demand to capacity ratio (DCR) of less than 1.0 in some areas in modern allowable stress design (ASD) and a dead + live load combination. The current "Factor of Safety" for ASD with a DCR of 1.0 is 1.65. The deadload near impact was about 50 psf and the design live load was 100 psf. Due to the area, the live load was reduced to 50psf for column design, hence, live load is approximately equal to dead load. You can do the arithmetic and figure out that the structure could actually handle THREE times the dead load.

Stop making things up.

[Architect]

Doug

I'm an architect who works on the design and construction of tall buildings on a daily basis. Others here have had sight of my registration details and can confirm this to be true.

Now I want to look at this quote of yours:

I have read bits of it and specifically looked at the damaged floors and the associated support column damage. Its not difficult to see the the building should have remained standing from the damage. The core is built to a factor of being able to support 6 times their normal weight, the outside was built to 20 times its normal gravity load. Its not hard to figure out that the building should have remained standing.

Setting to one side your misunderstanding regarding actual safety factors - and I would advise you that this term is not particularly applicable to complex structures such as WTC - I would say that, from a professional perspective, I do not consider the collapse to have been at all unexpected and would like to pursue this with you further. In particular I'd like to look at the technical issues surrounding fire performance, design loads, and failure initiation.

On this basis I'd be very much obliged if you could perhaps expand upon your views in a more comprehensive manner.

In the interim, and at the risk of appearing picky, I think that you should also know that "gravitational" load is not a term used by those of us who are actually in the construction industry, and that dead load is the accepted term.

[Furcifer]

In the interim, and at the risk of appearing picky, I think that you should also know that "gravitational" load is not a term used by those of us who are actually in the construction industry, and that dead load is the accepted term.

He's Canadian, we use the term. "Gravity load" actually differs from the "dead load" in the NBCC if I'm not mistaken. Something like "snow load" is part of calculating the "Gravity load". Now I'm not sure if "gravity load" is part of the "dead load" or not? I just know gravity load is big when you build a hockey or curling area. Well I set that one up pretty good, you can start with the jokes now... :)

[Newtons Bit]

Gravity loads are typically described as anything with a vertical only load. I.e. anything other than wind and earthquake (though earthquake has a vertical component).

[Architect]

The dead load would include the gravity load, inasmuch as it is the weight of the building itself. Just as a matter of interest, 3body, what other dead load would there be?;)

[Newtons Bit]

The dead load would include the gravity load, inasmuch as it is the weight of the building itself. Just as a matter of interest, 3body, what other dead load would there be?;)

Ceilings, plumbing, ducting, flooring materials, sometimes partition walls depending on the applicable building code, electrical (lighting and big huge conduits). Any additive slab work for mechanical units, and maybe even the mechanical unit itself depending on how it is connected to the building.

[Corsair 115]

So the awesome power of this administration is such that

A) they can control the media into not investigating that these hijackers are alive.I'd like to know how it controls the media of other nations so that they don't talk either.

[pomeroo]

I'd like to know how it controls the media of other nations so that they don't talk either.



Um, the fantasy movement would really really really prefer it if you didn't mention this. It's a tad inconvenient.

[David Wong]

For the crushing of testicles and sexual torure of young children:

search "torture_yoo_being_asked_justify_crushing_childrens _testicls.htm"


Okay, as a Neocon myself, I am SICK and TIRED of hearing this "crushing the testicles of children" accusation. Half of the Kerry campaign commercials in '04 were about that testicle crushing thing (complete with a cgi simulation that was banned by every network after just ONE airing). Guys, REPEATING A LIE DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE.

Yes, George W. Bush and members of his administration DO reserve the right to crush the testicles of young children (PLEASE FIND ME WHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION IT SAYS A PRESIDENT CANNOT DO THIS).

But let me ask you this:

Say we find out there is a suitcase nuke ready to detonate in downtown New York. And say that the only way to defuse that bomb was to crush the testicles of a young child. WOULD YOU LET A MILLION PEOPLE DIE JUST TO SAVE THE TESTICLES OF ONE SMALL CHILD?!?!?

Of course not. Now, what if I told you that this is the EXACT situation the Bush administration finds itself in today? Only instead of the suitcase nuke ready to explode in New York, you have the wrath of the owl god Morlock ready to "explode" in Bohemian Grove:

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/bohemiangrove.jpg

...which is know to be many times worse. DO YOU WANT TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR MORLOCK'S OWLY WRATH?

I'm sorry for the caps guys but I am SICK of hearing this old canard trotted out again and again by the liberal media.

[Architect]

Ceilings, plumbing, ducting, flooring materials, sometimes partition walls depending on the applicable building code, electrical (lighting and big huge conduits). Any additive slab work for mechanical units, and maybe even the mechanical unit itself depending on how it is connected to the building.


Now you've got me well puzzled. At the risk of needlesly quoting BS6399, I've come across dead load (all building components), imposed load (occupants, furniture, fixture and fittings), and wind load.

Where's my copy of the Eurocodes definitions annexe? :confused:

[Furcifer]

The dead load would include the gravity load, inasmuch as it is the weight of the building itself. Just as a matter of interest, 3body, what other dead load would there be?;)

Well, Newton's got it. But I am really not sure about this whole thing thats why I was hoping Doug would come back and you guys would talk about this stuff. I have heard them speak of this as "superimposed dead load". Is this right? Or is this stuff the gravity load?. Isn't the dead load everything that basically doesn't move in the building? Lol, now I'm really confused, but this is all different for a warehouse or arena right? I mean the gravity load, is the dead load in an arena, for the most part, isn't it? Is the gravity load the superimposed dead load? or Plain dead load? Is this whole thing just a load? I hate gravity, it has caused most of my problems.

[Mr. Skinny]

I agree with David Wong.

[Newtons Bit]

Architect: that may be a difference between Euro and ASCE definitions. Here, dead load is self-weight of the structure and permanent superimposed loads.

[Furcifer]

Architect: that may be a difference between Euro and ASCE definitions. Here, dead load is self-weight of the structure and permanent superimposed loads.

You guys are going fry me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure "wind load" "snow load" and "gravity load" are all part of the "dead load" here. The wind,snow and gravity load are all based in the probability of an event with a 95% likelihood of occurring? I'm not sure how this factors in.

[Alareth]

Its obvious that 9/11 was an inside job. You can look at it any number of ways with mutually independent sets of facts and still conclude that it was an inside job.

You say this as if it were a fact. The only people it's "obvious" too are people with a distrust of the government and an axe to grind.

The evidence tells a different story and people such as yourself insist on remaining willfully ignorant.

[Gravy]

I don't believe that any of you have read the full NIST report.How wrong you are. Once again, you choose to argue from personal incredulity rather than from fact and evidence. Here are some resources to help you improve your critical thinking skills:
The Basics: Critical Thinking, Informal Logic, Fallacies, The Scientific Method, Standards of Evidence (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/thebasic%3Acriticalthinking%2Clogic%2Cscientif)

[peteweaver]

Doug, the thing you, and your mates just don't get, is that our debunking of pseudo scientific bovine manure conspiracy theories, are not the same as supporting George (word that rhymes with banker but starts with 'W') Bush.

Most of us, would love to see Bush impeached for his behaviour.

But at the same time, the mass murderer Osama Bin Laden, deserves to spend the rest of his life in a loony bin, wearing a strait jacket 24/7 and forced to watch interviews with the bereaved relatives of those his followers have slaughtered.

You my friend are a very misguided man.

I contacted your organisation, so that I could try and undo the damage done by the conspiracist propaganda.

[peteweaver]

Gravy, how you put up with these people, I don't know, you deserve a beer. And IF I'm ever in New York, name the pub, and I'll get you one.

[Dave Rogers]

Gravy, how you put up with these people, I don't know, you deserve a beer. And IF I'm ever in New York, name the pub, and I'll get you one.

Join the queue.

Dave

[Alareth]

Gravy, how you put up with these people, I don't know, you deserve a beer. And IF I'm ever in New York, name the pub, and I'll get you one.


I don't think Gravy's liver could survive the number of beers he's been offered for his efforts.

[T.A.M.]

As far as NIST goes, I have read ALL of the executive summaries, and I am presently embarking on the "Meat" of the first paper. For a non engineer, non-physical scientist, it is at times a little rough going, but them have dumbed it down enough, i should get through it.

TAM:)

[Gravy]

Gravy, how you put up with these people, I don't know,Well, I try not to put up with them, but I've learned to spend little time on the ones who are clearly beyond redemption. I make an exception for people like Doug Plumb, whose arrogance makes mocking great fun.

you deserve a beer. And IF I'm ever in New York, name the pub, and I'll get you one.Cheers! Come quickly! I'm running dry!

I don't think Gravy's liver could survive the number of beers he's been offered for his efforts.You mean my Irish/German/Welsh/French-Canadian liver? You have no idea what feats of strength it's capable of.

[Newtons Bit]

You guys are going fry me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure "wind load" "snow load" and "gravity load" are all part of the "dead load" here. The wind,snow and gravity load are all based in the probability of an event with a 95% likelihood of occurring? I'm not sure how this factors in.

The reason why dead load is just self-weight and super-imposed loads is because those are ALWAYS there (except in remodelling instances). Engineers design to load cases, which are basically just factors of statistically worse case situations occuring. For instance, what's the likelyhood of a full live load event and full wind event occuring at the same time? Not that great, hence by ASCE, the load combination is dead + 0.75*wind + 0.75*live (these are ASD load cases so I'm pulling this out of my "filing cabinet"). There are load cases that involve live load, wind load, snow load, roof live load (construction, rain, etc), earthquake loads, lateral soil pressure loads, you get the idea. They're broken up into many different groups so that one can apply factors to them before combining them. This way we design the building so it's safe, but not that it can take a full live load event, during a 100-year snow and an earthquake at the same time. That's be ridiculous.

[Foolmewunz]

I keep thinking Doug's left us, but he keeps springing back up!

I think he's going for a new standard - getting banned by his own site. I can't believe that Gage, who's trying to present a front of technical knowledge, is going to let an obvious (and oblivious) know-nothing, and anti-everything-that-comes-up stay on board.

I think at any moment the name will disappear from the site and Doug will be left to troll here in relative anonymity.

Enjoy your fifteen minutes, Doug.

[Furcifer]

The reason why dead load is just self-weight and super-imposed loads is because those are ALWAYS there (except in remodelling instances). Engineers design to load cases, which are basically just factors of statistically worse case situations occuring. For instance, what's the likelyhood of a full live load event and full wind event occuring at the same time? Not that great, hence by ASCE, the load combination is dead + 0.75*wind + 0.75*live (these are ASD load cases so I'm pulling this out of my "filing cabinet"). There are load cases that involve live load, wind load, snow load, roof live load (construction, rain, etc), earthquake loads, lateral soil pressure loads, you get the idea. They're broken up into many different groups so that one can apply factors to them before combining them. This way we design the building so it's safe, but not that it can take a full live load event, during a 100-year snow and an earthquake at the same time. That's be ridiculous.
Ahh, this makes sense. Load cases are specific events that are combined to determine safety code compliance. I've always heard these terms in relation to seismic upgrades, a specific case or "event". Now I understand.

[beachnut]

You guys seem to talk a lot but almost never say anything. Then you had pixels to the conversation as if to emphasise the previous point with a further waste of bandwidth.
Every single post you have made is a waste of bandwidth. Your point? You talk and have no facts. You have joined an organization with no facts to support crazy ideas about 9/11. A super waste of bandwidth. You have expressed so many CT ideas that span not only 9/11 but JFK and more. It is impressive you had time between hallucinations to get a degree, or did you sneak into the AEFT before they checked your credentials?

You have nothing to debunk. Good luck.

[beachnut]

Well, I try not to put up with them, but I've learned to spend little time on the ones who are clearly beyond redemption. I make an exception for people like Doug Plumb, whose arrogance makes mocking great fun.

Cheers! Come quickly! I'm running dry!

You mean my Irish/German/Welsh/French-Canadian liver? You have no idea what feats of strength it's capable of.
You need to find a bar that is on the internet! And they have a Gravy deserves a beer on me page, paypal, or MC, and then you have a beer on me. So, when you find the pub who will post the page, please PM to see if it works.

I was not expecting new stuff from AEFT. But I was hoping they had something new. Maybe not as expected, AEFT turned out to be the same old junk. It reminds me of The Sixth Sense. I see truthers, I see them all over the internet, they do not even know they are nuts (or dolts, or idiots). weak but it is late, beer, or wine, where is the beer tab page.

[Doug Plumb]

But at the same time, the mass murderer Osama Bin Laden, deserves to spend the rest of his life in a loony bin, wearing a strait jacket 24/7 and forced to watch interviews with the bereaved relatives of those his followers have slaughtered.


What evidence do you have that bin Laden did 911 ? Have you reported this evidence to the FBI ? They have none and could likely use your help.

[Doug Plumb]

I'd like to know how it controls the media of other nations so that they don't talk either.

They don't control the media of other nations. The media of other nations doen't get into the USA or Canada.

If you look for it and read/ watch it you will find that the whole world is laughing at you.

Mainstream European media has done huge shows about 9/11 being an inside job.

[Alareth]

:hb:

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

<snip>
Mainstream European media has done huge shows about 9/11 being an inside job.
Evidence?

[uk_dave]

They don't control the media of other nations. The media of other nations doen't get into the USA or Canada.

If you look for it and read/ watch it you will find that the whole world is laughing at you.

Mainstream European media has done huge shows about 9/11 being an inside job.


You just make it up as you go along, don't you?

Is 'Doug Plumb Electrical Engineer' your fathers name and profession?

[8den]

Mainstream European media has done huge shows about 9/11 being an inside job.

Would you care to name the stations and programs that did this?

[Architect]

They don't control the media of other nations. The media of other nations doen't get into the USA or Canada.

If you look for it and read/ watch it you will find that the whole world is laughing at you.

Mainstream European media has done huge shows about 9/11 being an inside job.


Doug

Still waiting to a response to my suggestion that we have a substantive technical discussion regarding your claims; look forward to hearing from you on that.

In the interim I watch mainstream European media on a daily basis, what with me being European, but the only programmes I've seen about 911 are debunking the conspiracy theories. What ones are you thinking of, precisely?

Regards,

A.

[MortFurd]

They don't control the media of other nations. The media of other nations doen't get into the USA or Canada.

If you look for it and read/ watch it you will find that the whole world is laughing at you.

Mainstream European media has done huge shows about 9/11 being an inside job.

Really?

When?
I must have blinked that millisecond, because I've not seen a single one.


You need to look at the media yourself, instead of taking the word of your fellow Truthers as gospel.

Europeans laugh at Truthers on those rare occasions when a European becomes of aware of 9/11 Truthers and their insanity. They are laughing at YOU, Mr. Plumb.

[Firestone]

They don't control the media of other nations. The media of other nations doen't get into the USA or Canada.

If you look for it and read/ watch it you will find that the whole world is laughing at you.

Mainstream European media has done huge shows about 9/11 being an inside job.:boggled:

Actually, Loose Change has been shown on TV in a number of European countries (the Netherlands, a shortened version in Belgium, probably other countries).

But, contrary to what you suggest, support for the 9/11-inside-job theory is almost inexistant in the media here.

As far as the general public is concerned, most don't even know about these theories.
And most of those who are aware of them recognize them for the BS they are.

In short, a situation quite similar to what you have in the US and Canada.

[T.A.M.]

Doug:

Bin Laden did not carry out 9/11. He was the leader of the group who was responsible. Those that carried out 9/11 died in the attacks. They were given the ok by OBL through orders given by various contacts. He confessed to this, multiple times.

TAM:)

[twinstead]

Doug if you are going to go on and on about how blind we Americans are, and how much our media leads us like sheep, and how the European media exposes the lies, and how most Europeans know 911 was an inside job, perhaps you should make sure you go to a forum populated just by us dumb Americans.

Otherwise the Europeans on this forum will call you on it.

Play that card all you want. There exist a large number world-aware, non sheep Americans who read the world's media and can think for themselves who still think you are a stark, raving woo woo.

[R.Mackey]

I take it Doug is now rapidly fleeing the scene of his last crime, namely lying about the structural capacity of the WTC Towers? Typical...

I for one am not impressed with an "organization" that has such low standards. I guess the next question is, do they just let anyone in, or do they actually exclude those who are knowledgeable enough to point out their mistakes? For instance, real architects and engineers? Doug claims to be the applicant reviewer, so he should be able to answer this.

[Doug Plumb]

Architect: Still waiting to a response to my suggestion that we have a substantive technical discussion regarding your claims; look forward to hearing from you on that.


I have explained already why the building should not have collapsed and backed it up with solid indisputable evidence. The building was overbuilt to the point where the damage and heat caused by the plane crash should not have toppled the building.

This is backed up by observation and the fact that it was designed this way.

The building didn't topple either, it was blown up as easily shown in any of the videos of the "collapses" and collapsed straight down through itself rather than tipping as would be expected.

[Doug Plumb]

Bin Laden did not carry out 9/11. He was the leader of the group who was responsible. Those that carried out 9/11 died in the attacks. They were given the ok by OBL through orders given by various contacts. He confessed to this, multiple times.


No, he didn't confess. That taped confession shown on CNN had its main character that didn't even look like bin Laden. When I saw that tape for the first time my heart sank because I realized that many people would actually believe that was bin Laden.

The guy on the tape was 50 lb's overweight, had a "pug" nose as opposed to bin Ladens "ski slope nose" and had much darker skin than bin Laden.

Odly enough the audio was missing. That tape was someone else planning his daughters wedding for all we know.

[R.Mackey]

Ah, that's more like it.

So, did anyone see this "solid indisputable evidence?" All I saw was an off-hand reference to Hoffmann and some mention of the ASCE. Name-dropping, really. I'd be quite interested to see how the ASCE supports these lies...

[Doug Plumb]

8den:Would you care to name the stations and programs that did this?

Dutch TV did a 1/2 hour special, Italian TV did a 3 episode special. These were their main channels.

Plus you have Ruppert Murdock over there telling the truth about everything on his stations.

The whole idea is to wreck America from the inside and the outside so that the world government can take over and give everyone RFID chips. Then its over.

[HyJinX]

No, he didn't confess. That taped confession shown on CNN had its main character that didn't even look like bin Laden. When I saw that tape for the first time my heart sank because I realized that many people would actually believe that was bin Laden.

The guy on the tape was 50 lb's overweight, had a "pug" nose as opposed to bin Ladens "ski slope nose" and had much darker skin than bin Laden.

Odly enough the audio was missing. That tape was someone else planning his daughters wedding for all we know.


Doug, are these two images of the same person?

[Doug Plumb]

P.Mackey:So, did anyone see this "solid indisputable evidence?" All I saw was an off-hand reference to Hoffmann and some mention of the ASCE. Name-dropping, really. I'd be quite interested to see how the ASCE supports these lies...

I doubt the ASCE supports 9/11 conspiracy theories. They would lose self governance - its just like if a judge allowed us to have monetary reform and to stop paying all these rich private bankers interest on government guarenteed loans for government backed money.
.

[uk_dave]

Dutch TV did a 1/2 hour special, Italian TV did a 3 episode special. These were their main channels.

Plus you have Ruppert Murdock over there telling the truth about everything on his stations.

The whole idea is to wreck America from the inside and the outside so that the world government can take over and give everyone RFID chips. Then its over.

The BBC did a special too.

Can't remember what it was called...the cons...conspiracy folder.....

...conspiracy files.

That was it.

Apparently Dylan Avery doesn't know what a simile is.
Do you?

[R.Mackey]

I also doubt the ASCE supports conspiracy theories, but in case anyone wonders what I was talking about, Doug invoked them without proper reference in this post (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2702781#post2702781). I guess this is "solid indisputable evidence."

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I doubt the ASCE supports 9/11 conspiracy theories. They would lose self governance - its just like if a judge allowed us to have monetary reform and to stop paying all these rich private bankers interest on government guarenteed loans for government backed money.
.
False analogy and unsubstantiated assertion.

[Doug Plumb]

HyJinX:Doug, are these two images of the same person?

What two images are you referring to specifically ?

Anyone can look up the bin Laden confession tape and see the cat in that does not look like Usama.

[8den]

Dutch TV did a 1/2 hour special, Italian TV did a 3 episode special. These were their main channels.

What were the names of these programs? I have a friend in italy who works in a post house, she could help me look for them. Which station?

If you're aware of them, I can find them, I just need you to tell me their names.


Plus you have Ruppert Murdock over there telling the truth about everything on his stations.

Murdoch's a truther? :jaw-dropp Christ where's the laughing dog smiley when I need it? Do not equate the stupidity of booking David Shayler to talk about Litvinenko's murder, and letting him go off on a Tangent about 911 as an inside job.

I regularly freelance in sky news Doug, the guest booker got a dressing down for not researching what an out and out loon she was putting on air.

Oh and Murdoch's over in New York. Is the New York Times, which he also owns, a truther broadsheet? Or the Post?

I've never seen an endorsment of 911 conspiraloonary on Sky News.


The whole idea is to wreck America from the inside and the outside so that the world government can take over and give everyone RFID chips. Then its over.

You're funny.

[JamesB]

What two images are you referring to specifically ?




Uhh, I am going out on a limb here and guessing the two images he posted right where he asked you that question...

[DGM]

The whole idea is to wreck America from the inside and the outside so that the world government can take over and give everyone RFID chips. Then its over.

Dougie: Embrace the chip. It doesn't hurt. You won't get lost anymore.

[maccy]

Oh and Murdoch's over in New York. Is the New York Times, which he also owns, a truther broadsheet? Or the Post?

Murdoch doesn't own the Times, just the Post. However, he also owns Fox.

A wikipedia list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_Corporation#Holdings

He's also a US Citizen.

[Matthew Best]

And his name isn't Ruppert.

[Matthew Best]

Or Murdock.

[Architect]

I have explained already why the building should not have collapsed and backed it up with solid indisputable evidence. The building was overbuilt to the point where the damage and heat caused by the plane crash should not have toppled the building.

This is backed up by observation and the fact that it was designed this way.

The building didn't topple either, it was blown up as easily shown in any of the videos of the "collapses" and collapsed straight down through itself rather than tipping as would be expected.


Doug

Apologies, but you appear to have misunderstood the nature of my earlier post.

You, as I understand, are a professional engineer and have posted a 3 (or so) paragraph hypothesis that there is sufficient technical cause to believe that the modelled collapse pattern is wrong.

As an engineer, you will be aware that structral engineering, fire engineering, and the like are highly technical issues.

On this basis I have asked whether you, given your professional expertise, would be willing (or able, as the case may be) to enter into a detailed technical discussion regarding the substance of your hypothesis. You will appreciate that, as a consultant architect operating in this field on a daily basis, I would anticipate exploring the key issues in considerable depth.

I look forward to your response,

Yours aye,

A.

[Architect]

I doubt the ASCE supports 9/11 conspiracy theories. They would lose self governance - its just like if a judge allowed us to have monetary reform and to stop paying all these rich private bankers interest on government guarenteed loans for government backed money.
.

With respect, how would this concept apply to learned organisations outwith the US such as IStructE, ICE, and RIBA (to name but three)?

[8den]

Murdoch doesn't own the Times, just the Post. However, he also owns Fox.

A wikipedia list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_Corporation#Holdings

He's also a US Citizen.

Sorry yes I should know that got confused by the fact that he owns the UK Times.

Wait a minute I'm pretty sure yesterday's Times main headline was;

"OMG!! 911!! INSIDE JOB! WTF!!!!"

[Architect]

I doubt the ASCE supports 9/11 conspiracy theories. They would lose self governance - its just like if a judge allowed us to have monetary reform and to stop paying all these rich private bankers interest on government guarenteed loans for government backed money.
.

With respect, how would this concept apply to learned organisations outwith the US such as IStructE, ICE, and RIBA (to name but three)?

[Architect]

Duplicate Post

[Gravy]

What evidence do you have that bin Laden did 911 ?Wait –– didn't you just ask about bin Laden two days ago?

Why yes, yes you did:
Why don't yopu explain a single shred of evidence or suggest a credible motive for Osama bin Laden attacking the USA


And didn't I reply with links to a mountain of evidence, including links to several confession videos?

Why yes, yes I did, in post 162:
Why not read, listen to, and watch bin Laden and al Qaeda's explanations? (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/linkstoterrorism%2Calqaedainfo)

In my first reply to you I called you an intellectual coward. I rest my case.

[Doug Plumb]

Why yes, yes I did, in post 162:


I asked for actual evidence, not government commentary and fake confession tapes.

[peteweaver]

Doug, where is your evidence to back up your claim that it's government commentary and fake confession tapes ?

They were published on Al Jazeera, a news station which is scathing towards the USA, and scathing towards Israel.

Put your money where your mouth is, and give people some facts instead of unsubstantiated claims.

[Doug Plumb]

Architect:With respect, how would this concept apply to learned organisations outwith the US such as IStructE, ICE, and RIBA (to name but three)?

Virtually all these organizations are controlled by globalists and if they go against the "government" (private international bankers) then they lose even more autonomy and possibly worse.

There is a movie posted on line called "Zeitgeist, The Movie". If you do a google search on this you can watch it for free on Google. It explains everything and gives Kennedys speech on the monolithic conspiracy that we are facing. He was killed shortly after.

The movie starts with religion, then goes through terror, wars and taxation. Its by far the best movie ever made by the Truth Movement.

If you watch this movie everything you see happening in our society today will make sense to you.

[peteweaver]

Virtually all these organizations are controlled by globalists and if they go against the "government" (private international bankers) then they lose even more autonomy and possibly worse.


Your evidence to back up your allegation ?

[uk_dave]

Virtually all these organizations are controlled by globalists and if they go against the "government" (private international bankers) then they lose even more autonomy and possibly worse.

There is a movie posted on line called "Zeitgeist, The Movie". If you do a google search on this you can watch it for free on Google. It explains everything and gives Kennedys speech on the monolithic conspiracy that we are facing. He was killed shortly after.

The movie starts with religion, then goes through terror, wars and taxation. Its by far the best movie ever made by the Truth Movement.

If you watch this movie everything you see happening in our society today will make sense to you.

Tell me doug, do you trust Microsoft? Apple? LINUX?
How about Google?
Intel? AMD?
Symantec?

They're all watching you, you know?

[Doug Plumb]

Doug, where is your evidence to back up your claim that it's government commentary and fake confession tapes ?


The government commentary is obviously government commentary and not evidence. You can tell when you read it. If you read the "Commission Report" the tale about bin Laden is nothing more than hear-say because its not backed by independent evidence. It could just as easily all be fabricated like the "confession tape".

You can tell bin Laden was faked in the confession because we are all facial recognition experts and that guy on that confession tape does not even look anything like Usama bin Laden.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Virtually all these organizations are controlled by globalists and if they go against the "government" (private international bankers) then they lose even more autonomy and possibly worse.

There is a movie posted on line called "Zeitgeist, The Movie". If you do a google search on this you can watch it for free on Google. It explains everything and gives Kennedys speech on the monolithic conspiracy that we are facing. He was killed shortly after.

The movie starts with religion, then goes through terror, wars and taxation. Its by far the best movie ever made by the Truth Movement.

If you watch this movie everything you see happening in our society today will make sense to you.
Thread discussing it here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=85264)

[Doug Plumb]

ukDave:Tell me doug, do you trust Microsoft? Apple? LINUX?
How about Google?
Intel? AMD?
Symantec?


Of course not. Do you ?

[SpitfireIX]

Virtually all these organizations are controlled by globalists and if they go against the "government" (private international bankers) then they lose even more autonomy and possibly worse.

There is a movie posted on line called "Zeitgeist, The Movie". If you do a google search on this you can watch it for free on Google. It explains everything and gives Kennedys speech on the monolithic conspiracy that we are facing. He was killed shortly after.

The movie starts with religion, then goes through terror, wars and taxation. Its by far the best movie ever made by the Truth Movement.

If you watch this movie everything you see happening in our society today will make sense to you.


Doug, if this conspiracy is so ruthless and so all-powerful, please answer one question, if you would: Why are you still alive??

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

The government commentary is obviously government commentary and not evidence. You can tell when you read it. If you read the "Commission Report" the tale about bin Laden is nothing more than hear-say because its not backed by independent evidence. It could just as easily all be fabricated like the "confession tape".
Circular reasoning fallacy.

You can tell bin Laden was faked in the confession because we are all facial recognition experts and that guy on that confession tape does not even look anything like Usama bin Laden.
http://www.911myths.com/html/fake_video.html

[Doug Plumb]

Why are you still alive??

If they killed me they would have to kill many more. The detention centers are being built for people that see through it all and speak up.

David Rockefeller explains the conspiracy in his self authorized biography and explains that he is working to overthrow the United States to implement a One World Government.

You can read about the SPP on SPP.gov.

You can research the European Union. Did you know they are considered guilty until proven innocent over there ?

If you want to read about what is happening you can learn from the UN document on Agenda 21.

[uk_dave]

Of course not. Do you ?

Best of luck then.

(BTW did you know there's a monster under your bed?)

[Doug Plumb]

That explanation on 911Myths is stupid - like all their explanations.

You can watch the tape and plainly see its not bin Laden as he moves around.

911 Myths just picked an angle that makes him look something like bin Laden then picked a photo of bin Laden that most looks like this guy.

[Doug Plumb]

ukDave:BTW did you know there's a monster under your bed?

Did you know that these people actually admit what they are doing IN BOOKS ?

David Rockefeller is likely making fun of you by explaining it and then laughing about how thick you are and how you deserve what they are going to do to you because of your ignorance.

[uk_dave]

Did you know that these people actually admit what they are doing IN BOOKS ?

David Rockefeller is likely making fun of you by explaining it and then laughing about how thick you are and how you deserve what they are going to do to you because of your ignorance.

Nice idea, but sorry there's only one person who is being laughed at here.

Tell me doug, when did you first realise ..... everything that you believe in right now? What was your epiphany?

I assume you weren't born with this knowledge.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

<snip>
The detention centers are being built for people that see through it all and speak up.
<snip>
Verifiable, objective evidence?

[Gravy]

I asked for actual evidence, not government commentary and fake confession tapes.Did widdew Dougie get huwt by big, bad winks? Paw baby!

[R.Mackey]

I'd have to say it's padded room time for Doug...

Please get help, Doug. You'll receive no further teasing from me. Good luck to you.

[maccy]

You can research the European Union. Did you know they are considered guilty until proven innocent over there ?

Can you point me to the unified EU criminal law that uses this convention?

Can you point to any unified EU criminal law?

(Hint: there isn't one).

In the UK (part of the EU) the presumption is innocence until proven guilty - in both the English and Scottish traditions. ETA: I'm confident that it's broadly similar in all the other EU member states.

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_law

You aren't very good at this reality stuff, are you?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

That explanation on 911Myths is stupid - like all their explanations.

You can watch the tape and plainly see its not bin Laden as he moves around.

911 Myths just picked an angle that makes him look something like bin Laden then picked a photo of bin Laden that most looks like this guy.
That is not a refutation, that is sticking your fingers in your ears and going, "LALALA". If you can not provide a logically consistent, factual accurate refutation, just say so.

[Jonnyclueless]

Bin Laden never looked like that when he walked around my living room, how bout the rest of you? Clearly a fake video. Anyone with half a brain that has had Bin Laden over for dinner knows there's no way that's him.

[JamesB]

What two images are you referring to specifically ?

Anyone can look up the bin Laden confession tape and see the cat in that does not look like Usama.

So are you ever going to answer his question, or are you just going to act like an idiot and pretend you didn't understand the question?

[AZCat]

Tell me doug, when did you first realise ..... everything that you believe in right now? What was your epiphany?

Well, I, uh... I... I... first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love.

Yes, a uh, a profound sense of fatigue... a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I... I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence.

I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women uh... women sense my power and they seek the life essence. I, uh... I do not avoid women, Mandrake.

But I... I do deny them my essence.

Remind you of anyone?

[AZCat]

double-post. My apologies.

[Alareth]

Obtuse

Pronunciation: äb-'tüs, &b-, -'tyüs
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): ob·tus·er; -est
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin obtusus blunt, dull, from past participle of obtundere to beat against, blunt, from ob- against + tundere to beat -- more at OB- (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/ob-), CONTUSION (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/contusion)
1 a : not pointed or acute : BLUNT (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blunt) b (1) of an angle : exceeding 90 degrees but less than 180 degrees (2) : having an obtuse angle <an obtuse triangle> -- see TRIANGLE (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/triangle+)illustration c of a leaf : rounded at the free end
2 a : lacking sharpness or quickness of sensibility or intellect : INSENSITIVE (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/insensitive), STUPID (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/stupid) b : difficult to comprehend : not clear or precise in thought or expression
synonym see DULL (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/dull)
- ob·tuse·ly adverb
- ob·tuse·ness noun

[Gravy]

That explanation on 911Myths is stupid - like all their explanations.

You can watch the tape and plainly see its not bin Laden as he moves around.

911 Myths just picked an angle that makes him look something like bin Laden then picked a photo of bin Laden that most looks like this guy.

Of course. Only an imbecile could mistake the man in these photos for the man at lower right.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/879046797e80c6be7.jpg

[HyJinX]

Doug, are these two images of the same person?

I'll ask you again, Doug, Is this the same person in both images? Yes or no?

ETA: What Gravy said.

[uk_dave]

Well, it's the same hat.

But didn't osama always wear his rolex on his left ankle, except during jewish festivals?

[Arus808]

No, he didn't confess. That taped confession shown on CNN had its main character that didn't even look like bin Laden. When I saw that tape for the first time my heart sank because I realized that many people would actually believe that was bin Laden.

The guy on the tape was 50 lb's overweight, had a "pug" nose as opposed to bin Ladens "ski slope nose" and had much darker skin than bin Laden.

Odly enough the audio was missing. That tape was someone else planning his daughters wedding for all we know.


You're still using the "fatty" bin laden excuse? Its already debunked because of the different TV formats used in Afghanistan (Pal and SECAM) and then trans coded for America (NTSC), where the frame sizes are different? So when one translates video format to another format, the frames get resized to fit the standard for another country

http://www.muckrakerreport.com/id372.html

[beachnut]

I have explained already why the building should not have collapsed and backed it up with solid indisputable evidence. The building was overbuilt to the point where the damage and heat caused by the plane crash should not have toppled the building.

This is backed up by observation and the fact that it was designed this way.

The building didn't topple either, it was blown up as easily shown in any of the videos of the "collapses" and collapsed straight down through itself rather than tipping as would be expected.
The old Titanic syndrome. You did not show anything. The chief structural engineer of the WTC has already shown you to be wrong. You are wrong over 5 years. Wrong before you opened your mouth or posted.

[Slayhamlet]

Can you say "paranoid schizophrenic"?

[Architect]

Virtually all these organizations are controlled by globalists and if they go against the "government" (private international bankers) then they lose even more autonomy and possibly worse.


Doug

Thanks for the reply, however you don't seem to have answered my point regarding a detailed, technical debate regarding your collapse hypothesis. As an engineer, you'll be aware just how complex these issues can be and I'm keen to look at your ideas in far greater depth. Given that your beliefs are so strongly held, I'm sure you'll wish to reciprocate.

I'm rather puzzled by your suggestion that IStructE, ICE, and the RIBA are controlled by third parties as each is, of course, a learned body composed solely of the respective professions. What gives me a particular problem is that I actually sit on the Professional Practice board of one of the UK institutes, and have seen no evidence to support your claim. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction?

Yours aye,

A.

[Totovader]

I asked for actual evidence, not government commentary and fake confession tapes.

This is an important admission: there is no evidence that will convince Doug. He is not scientific, he is not rational. The evidence will not change his mind, because he did not use the evidence to arrive at his conclusion.

Yeah, I know... big surprise.

[Foolmewunz]

I'd have to say it's padded room time for Doug...

Please get help, Doug. You'll receive no further teasing from me. Good luck to you.

Doug,
I think everything you need can be found here:

http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

Good luck in your quest. Has Gage thrown you out, yet?

[SpitfireIX]

Doug,
I think everything you need can be found here:

http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

Good luck in your quest. Has Gage thrown you out, yet?



http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/tinfoil_hat_cat.jpg


:tinfoil :tinfoil :tinfoil

[peteweaver]

The government commentary is obviously government commentary and not evidence. You can tell when you read it. If you read the "Commission Report" the tale about bin Laden is nothing more than hear-say because its not backed by independent evidence. It could just as easily all be fabricated like the "confession tape".

You can tell bin Laden was faked in the confession because we are all facial recognition experts and that guy on that confession tape does not even look anything like Usama bin Laden.

I asked for evidence not libel.

Your evidence, not your impassioned opinion please.

[maccy]

It doesn't have any relevance to his arguments, which are self evidently absurd (in fact it would probably be better to describe them as disconnected series of unsupported statements), but Doug's area of expertise seems to be in using software to analyse acoustics:

http://www.acoustisoft.com/contactus.html

Which may explain his lack of understanding in relevant areas - although not his lack of humility and willingness to learn.

[BeAChooser]

No one stays on the AE911truth as an eng or architect unless we see their diploma

I have a question for Doug Plumb about the qualifications of some of the members listed as belonging to ae911truth ... in particular, those who claim to be structural or civil engineers ... and thus presumably have some actual expertise in subjects related to the collapse of structures.

Is "Haluk Akol, Architect & Structural Engineer, Lafayette, CA" really a structural engineer, Doug? I can find nothing to indicate that. Something written about his son on the web states that "His father, Haluk was an architect who came from Istanbul in 1945." And note that would make him over 80 years old.

How about "James Brooks, B. Civil Eng, University of Texas, Engineering Consultant"? I can't find anything on the web about him. Nothing at the University of Texas either. Who does he work for? What has he been working on since graduation? When was that?

"Jason Griffin, BS, Civil Engineer Washington Dc" is listed elsewhere as belonging to ASCE and being a project coordinator. But again, what is his actual experience. Is it water treatment? Foundation engineering? Highway engineering? Without knowing more, it's impossible to tell whether he actually has any relevant qualifications.

"Ted Muga, BSCE, Civil Engineer, San Diego, CA" is described on the Scholars for 9/11 *Truth* website as a "naval aviator, commercial pilot, structural engineering". But what engineering work did he ever actually do to merit the claim of being a structural engineer? At the patriotsquestion911 website he lists himself as a retired aviator and pilot. But there is no mention of being a structural engineer. Why not mention that if he is one?

By the way, there is an interview with Ted Muga on the web where he says he retired as a naval aviator in 1985 and retired as a commercial pilot in 1991. Again, there is no mention of his doing structural engineering at any time in his life. A little over half way through that interview, the interviewer makes several false claims ... that there was "a visible lack of wreckage around the site of the hole" in the Pentagon and that "there was no indication that the large turbine engines on each wing of the plane had impacted the sides of the Pentagon. There would have been some mark or small holes or something in the side of the Pentagon. The momentum of those heavy engines would have carried forward with the plane hitting in the side of the pentagon at over 200 mph and made some mark but there was nothing there." Both statements are absolutely false as photos that are readily available on the internet prove. And Ted Muga, claimed structural engineer, is asked about this and doesn't correct him. No, instead he claims the plane wreckage and contents (fuselage fragments, wing fragments, seats, etc) should have been strewn all over the front of the pentagon. He says that the engines didn't damage the building but should have. He claims that the fuselage and most of the rest of the plane (other than engines and landing gear) couldn't have damaged the building ... that the fuselage and wings should have shattered on impact. He says "there is absolutely no evidence at all that a large commericial aircraft had gone in there." Well that is absolutely false. So clearly Ted is completely ignorant of the facts about the damage that occurred. But that doesn't stop him from regurgitating the lies of the interviewer because he, like the interviewer, apparently has an agenda so the truth doesn't matter to him.

In other venues, "Joseph Testa, P.E., Civil Engineer, Thousand Oaks, CA" claimed to have "worked in structural steel for years" and "studied major structural collapses." But all we really know about this guy is what he claims. We don't know where he's worked. We don't know what degrees he has. And searching California Professional Engineers returns no hits under that name.

Again, there is no other reference for "Dr. Michael Voschine, PhD., Structural Engineer, Miami, Florida" on the web other than ae911truth's. We have no idea if this a real person, where he got his degree, where he's been practicing engineering, what projects he's been involved in or what he actually thinks.

"Rob Tamaki, M.A.Sc., P.Eng., Civil Engineer, Vancouver, BC" is not an expert in buildings. He's on the Small Water and Waste Systems Committee for B.C.. He's about as qualified as you when it comes to structures, impact, fire and collapse.

"John Franklin, P.E." Surely you can tell us more than that. What is his expertise and experience? Why is so little information provided if you've checked these folks credentials out?

"Peter Gibbons P.E., Professional Engineer" Same complaint.

Next we have "Rich Reed, B.S. Structural Engineering, UC San, Structural / Soils Engineer" in San Diego, California. Not much else available about him either.

"Robert Tamaki, M.A.Sc., P.Eng., Civil Engineer" Vancouver, BC. Same complaint.

"Dennis J. Kollar, P.E., Structural Engineer" Same complaint. Although there is a Dennis Kollar apparently working for Ambrose Engineering in Cedarburg, WI and they do structural engineering. They seem to do a lot of schools.

"Ron Paul LeBlanc, PE, Engineer" Same complaint. Oh wait. Turns out he's in another line of work now ... real estate and selling home businesses.

The ae911truth site lists "Charles N. Pegelow, PE, Civil Engineer. lic Calif CE 26344 (Structural)" as a member. Mr Pegelow has a BS in civil engineering, not structural engineering. That's a separate, higher level degree. His is also a civil engineering license, rather than a structural engineering license. The ae911truth website is dishonest in implying that it is a structural license. Furthermore, it turns out that Pegelow has been working for about 30 years in the oil drilling industry. He spent almost his entire life working on oil drilling platforms. He's not an expert on buildings, much less skyscrapers.

"Warren J Raftshol, MS Civil Engineering, 1982" is listed as from Suttons Bay, Michigan. Unusual name. Could this be the same person? "Warren Raftshol, Suttons Bay, MI 49682 Grape grower, winery owner, libertarian since 1965." And elsewhere on the web he's described as follows "Raftshol, 51, has a scraggly beard and wears wide suspenders, denim shirts and jeans. He's a man with no pretenses. Though he has a master's degree in civil engineering from Northwestern University, he chose agriculture on the family homestead. "Back in the early '80s," he reminds you, "there were no jobs.""

"Massimo Dell'Affidabilità, Ing., Engineer, Structural Specialist". Well the name is a sure clue that the entry is bogus. Don't you think, Doug?

[Doug Plumb]

Which may explain his lack of understanding in relevant areas - although not his lack of humility and willingness to learn.

This will be my last post on this forum. If I wanted you to know my business I would have pointed it out.

You people are pathetic & in some cases liars and you will not be hearing from me again.

As far as the AE911truth site, the question you ask has an obvious answer if you read the site.

[Doug Plumb]

Which may explain his lack of understanding in relevant areas - although not his lack of humility and willingness to learn.

This will be my last post on this forum. If I wanted you to know my business I would have pointed it out.

As far as my understanding of relevant ereas, ones does not need a mathematician to tell you that 2+2<5.

You people are pathetic & in some cases liars and you will not be hearing from me again.

As far as the AE911truth site, the question you ask has an obvious answer if you read the site.

[T.A.M.]

seeya Doug....

man, that guy has bought up every ounce of the NWO tripe...lost soul.

TAM:)

[NickUK]

You posted that twice, ergo you lied in the first one.

[Slayhamlet]

This will be my last post on this forum. If I wanted you to know my business I would have pointed it out.

As far as my understanding of relevant ereas, ones does not need a mathematician to tell you that 2+2<5.

You people are pathetic & in some cases liars and you will not be hearing from me again.

As far as the AE911truth site, the question you ask has an obvious answer if you read the site.

Everyone knows AE911Truth is a sham site. Even you, Dougie.

So who's the liar?

[maccy]

You posted that twice, ergo you lied in the first one.

I suspect he may have double-posted unintentionally.

As for his storming off in a huff, well I guess the rest of the world will just have to get along without his amazing insights.

[Foolmewunz]

Everybody sing!

Bye-Bye, So Long, Farewell.
Bye-Bye, So Long, Farewell.

(chorus from [Will I] See You in September)

[CHF]

You can tell bin Laden was faked in the confession because we are all facial recognition experts and that guy on that confession tape does not even look anything like Usama bin Laden.

Were the other people in the tape faked as well? Or just Osama?

[Triterope]

"Peter Gibbons P.E., Professional Engineer"

Peter Gibbons was the name of the main character in Office Space.

Looks like fake names are still getting through AE911Truth's rigorous screening process. Seriously, "Am Amnusydcjkorn"?

[NickUK]

I suspect he may have double-posted unintentionally.

Yeah, I know, I'm only messing ;)

Shame he's gone really - I have no problem at all laughing at the mental implosion of people who explicitly state that the FDNY were complicit in the 9/11 attacks.

I was a little bit surprised at just how crazy he was when he finally got round to posting at JREF.

[AZCat]

Yeah, I know, I'm only messing ;)

Shame he's gone really - I have no problem at all laughing at the mental implosion of people who explicitly state that the FDNY were complicit in the 9/11 attacks.

I was a little bit surprised at just how crazy he was when he finally got round to posting at JREF.

You think he's really gone? How many times have posters claimed to have washed their hands of the skeptics, only to show up again later?

Even if he doesn't post again he was curious enough to have posted here in the first place, so I would not be surprised if he continues to lurk just so he can read all the mean things we will say about him and the AE9/11Truth group.

On Edit: Yeah, he really was far nuttier than I had anticipated.

[WildCat]

I was a little bit surprised at just how crazy he was when he finally got round to posting at JREF.
Yes, he was nuts to the extreme, probably one of the nuttier troofers we've had including Ace Baker.

Most of you guys are too new to have been here when Earth Sister was posting, but she's probably one of the nuttier posters ever at JREF. This is her web site (http://www.theprojectatearth.com/Welcome.html), be sure to check out the album! Yes, space aliens were her thing...

[Calcas]

Everyone knows AE911Truth is a sham site. Even you, Dougie.

So who's the liar?

So good, it's worth repeating.

Everyone knows AE911Truth is a sham site. Even you, Dougie.

[beachnut]

This will be my last post on this forum. If I wanted you to know my business I would have pointed it out.

You people are pathetic & in some cases liars and you will not be hearing from me again.

As far as the AE911truth site, the question you ask has an obvious answer if you read the site.
The AE9/11truth site is full of false information. AE9/11truth is anything but truthful all around. Kids in grammar school can solve 9/11, the mentally challenged AE9/11 truth members can not get a single fact right about 9/11. Sad people. And you show no signs of rational thinking. How can a group of people get everything wrong?

I have seen all at your web site, no hope for you to ever find anything truthful about 9/11. It is truly amazing you got the date right.

Good bye. Next time use facts.

[Furcifer]

Wake up, go to work, come home and you get 2 pages of pure hilarity. I love this forum.

And Doug, we're Canadian, cheer up for God's sake.

[NickUK]

Most of you guys are too new to have been here when Earth Sister was posting, but she's probably one of the nuttier posters ever at JREF. This is her web site (http://www.theprojectatearth.com/Welcome.html)

**** me!

[Totovader]

I think that Doug has accurately represented the AE911Truth organization, here: lies, dodging, and complete lack of evidence.

The only thing that would be surprising is if Doug realized his failures, left the organization, and did some research.

I'd pay to see it.

[Furcifer]

Most of you guys are too new to have been here when Earth Sister was posting, but she's probably one of the nuttier posters ever at JREF. This is her web site (http://www.theprojectatearth.com/Welcome.html), be sure to check out the album! Yes, space aliens were her thing...

Wait, I create a whole thread dedicated to "twoofers" who made you go hmmmm.. And no one remembered this until now?!?! What other little gems of insanity are you guys hiding?

[kookbreaker]

I have a question for Doug Plumb

(snip for space)

Welcome to the forum BeAChooser, excellent first post.

[ref]

I have always liked the fact, that the fake Osama went into so much detail, that he even colored his beard grey in the middle with black stripes, just like Osama's real beard is grey in the middle with black stripes.

[Gravy]

(snip for space)

Welcome to the forum BeAChooser, excellent first post.Seconded. I don't suppose we should hold our breath waiting for answers, though...

[Corsair 115]

I'm going to assume Doug missed these the first time around, so I'm going to try it again...

"Or, how about the towers collapsing from fire when its obvious from the video that towers 1 & 2 were blown up & wtc7 was a perfectly executed conventional controlled demolition (textbook example). You can see pieces being ejected outward and upward during towers 1 & 2 collapse. Fire doesn't do that. Really? And what's your expertise and background which allows you to conclusively state that fire doesn't do that? I trust it's something more substantial than having watched Hollywood movies and TV shows.

As far as me being a Canadian Citizen, the reality is that we will all soon be citizens of the NAU, with virtually all the rights that humanity has fought for over the past 1000 years removed in secret. If they have their way you will not have the right of representation or the right of habeus corpus when arrested for a crime. Really? The items being discussed under the North American Union include changes to the procedures for the administration of criminal law? I presume you can point out the relevant passage from any documentation?

I wasn't aware of any legislation being proposed in Parliament which advocated the doing away with of Canadian legal tender and its replacement with U.S. dollars. Might you point me to the relevant bill? I wasn't aware that any legislation was before Parliament which proposed the abolishment of the nation of Canada and the seeking of statehood inside the United States. Might you point me to the relevant bill?

The major piece of news that was on CBC Newsworld this afternoon was a press conference by Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day addressing the RCMP pension fund scandal. I didn't see anything about the elimination of Canadian currency or the dissolution of Canada... you'd think the CBC or CTV would consider either of these to be rather major news stories...

[~enigma~]

This will be my last post on this forum. If I wanted you to know my business I would have pointed it out.

As far as my understanding of relevant ereas, ones does not need a mathematician to tell you that 2+2<5.

You people are pathetic & in some cases liars and you will not be hearing from me again.

As far as the AE911truth site, the question you ask has an obvious answer if you read the site.Your last post said it was your last post. So now I choose to ignore everything you say because you have proven yourself to be a liar. Come to think of it, we can use a 9/11 debunker with your skills. Meet me at the grove and we will iron out the details of your contract :)

[~enigma~]

Everybody sing!

Bye-Bye, So Long, Farewell.
Bye-Bye, So Long, Farewell.

(chorus from [Will I] See You in September)How about...

Na-na-na-na, hey, hey ... Goodbye :)

[8den]

You can research the European Union. Did you know they are considered guilty until proven innocent over there ?

If you want to read about what is happening you can learn from the UN document on Agenda 21.

So we have an incredibly free media exposing 911 truth, but the EU government consider us innocent till proven guilty.

Um


http://gallery.ksilebo.com/d/5027-2/1143439398189.jpg

[peteweaver]

You can research the European Union. Did you know they are considered guilty until proven innocent over there ?


Not in Britain mate, and we are in the EU.

[H'ethetheth]

You just make it up as you go along, don't you?

Is 'Doug Plumb Electrical Engineer' your fathers name and profession?Perhaps not, but if not, I bet His mother is called something like 'Mary Plumb Electrical Engineer-Johnson'.

[peteweaver]

I think that Doug has accurately represented the AE911Truth organization, here: lies, dodging, and complete lack of evidence.

The only thing that would be surprising is if Doug realized his failures, left the organization, and did some research.

I'd pay to see it.

Considering the embarrassment he'd have to face which would be part of the realisation, I'm not sure that would happen. Its easier for him to remain one of the flock.

[Civilized Worm]

So I take it that AIDS being orchestrated by "higher powers" was not in fact admitted/proven to be true and that Alex Jones is in fact a big fat liar and conspiracy theorist. Thanks Doug.

[CptColumbo]

Wait, I create a whole thread dedicated to "twoofers" who made you go hmmmm.. And no one remembered this until now?!?! What other little gems of insanity are you guys hiding?

Some day, when you're ready, we will tell you the tale of 1inchrist.


...AND YOU WILL BURN IN THE HELLFIRE!

[BeAChooser]

[COLOR=black]The AE9/11truth site is full of false information.

It is indeed. Here is just a sampling. For example, it displays an image of some WTC debris with the caption "Previously molten metal was found "flowing like lava" by the FDNY in the basements of all 3 WTC High-rises. Surely everyone who has signed their petition and claims to be an *expert* is sufficiently well informed to know that's not a photo of molten steel but of pancaked floors with intact steel, reinforced concrete, pipes, etc. Apparently not.

The website shows an image with the caption: "Which 20 story building will fall to the ground first? Until 9/11/01 most physicists would have agreed that the one that didn't have to crush though 100,000 tons of steel would fall first — at free-fall speed. On 9/11, the example on the left "collapsed" at virtually free-fall speed! But this could only have been accomplished by removing the columns ahead of the fall — with explosives." What's being implied about what happened is a lie. The towers did not collapse at "virtually free-fall speed". Material thrown out to the side of the towers during the collapse reached the ground well ahead of the collapsing level of the tower ... contrary to what the caption is clearly suggesting.

The website states "The debris was equally distributed across a 1,400 ft. diameter. There are no "pancakes" stacked up at the bottom of either tower! " This too is a lie. The debris was not equally distributed over that diameter an area and the photo noted above that they called "previously molten metal" is in fact an example of pancaked floors. Several are one on top of another in that chunk of material.

Can *experts* be this clueless folks ... or do these *experts* just not bother to look beyond the nearest conspiracy website because they've got preconceived notions?

The website shows an image of a highly deformed steel member with the caption "It takes thousands of degrees to bend steel like this without buckling." This is a lie. Steel need only be softened then have force applied to it (say during a violent collapse) for something like this to happen.

The site claims that "Steven Jones, PhD physicist discovers previously molten iron spheres in the WTC dust which blanketed lower Manhattan. Sizes are up to 1/16" diameter. The findings are corroborated by EPA but not explained." False. The EPA expert that Dr Jones quoted concerning these spheres has published a report explaining them. And it's an innocuous explanation.

The website claims WTC 7 collapsed in 6.5 seconds. False. The east mechanical room on the roof disappeared into the roof more than 6 seconds before ae911*truth* claims the collapse began.

The website repeats the lie that "pull" is an industry term meaning "demolish". It repeats the lie that Silverstein told the NYC fire commander to "'pull' WTC 7". ae911*truth* members will not find the truth on a foundation of lies and misinformation.

[JamesB]

While being interviewed by Barrett last weekend Gage claimed that the PM book was nothing but a bunch of strawman arguments like the "Star Wars death beam theory which nobody supports". Actually PM never mentioned that theory, as it was too recent. He then went on to complain that nobody had done a point-by-point debunking of his website.

Typical truther logic, 1 million points can be debunked, but then they will complain because their website hasn't specifically been adressed yet. It is the law of infinite claims.

[BeAChooser]

Welcome to the forum BeAChooser, excellent first post.

Thanks. I think I'll enjoy it here. Especially if folks like Doug show up from time to time.

As an aside, I was banned from using the word "KOOK" at a previous forum.
:blush:

[pomeroo]

I have always liked the fact, that the fake Osama went into so much detail, that he even colored his beard grey in the middle with black stripes, just like Osama's real beard is grey in the middle with black stripes.




It's a shame he left before he resolved the Osama Conundrum. I'll bet he was just the guy who could have done it.

[Apollo20]

BeAChooser:

Could you please provide a reference to the EPA expert that Dr Jones quoted concerning the WTC spheres who you claim has published a report explaining them.

Thanks!

[kookbreaker]

Thanks. I think I'll enjoy it here. Especially if folks like Doug show up from time to time.

As an aside, I was banned from using the word "KOOK" at a previous forum.
:blush:

:D

[BeAChooser]

BeAChooser:

Could you please provide a reference to the EPA expert that Dr Jones quoted concerning the WTC spheres who you claim has published a report explaining them.

Thanks!


I mistated when I wrote a report was published explaining them. What I meant to say is the EPA expert that Jones quoted concerning the WTC sphere reasonably explained them in a report. I'll have to dig to find the source and statement but I recall he said essentially what I believe you yourself have said on occasion ... that there are numerous sources that could produce such spheres ... friction, chemical reactions, cutting torches, welding, out-gassing from the so-called "pools" (sarcasm) of molten steel that were at the site. First I'll have to go back and identify who exactly at the EPA Jones cited in his various articles on this. When I find the time.

[1337m4n]

The problem I have with ANY "X for 9/11 Truth" website, whether X be Scholars, Pilots, Engineers, whatever, is that the entire concept is one big appeal to authority.

They're trying to give themselves more credibility by claiming they have all these different "experts", but they all say the EXACT SAME THING. Pilots for 9/11 Truth, Vets for 9/11 Truth, Engineers for 9/11 Truth, all peddle the EXACT SAME THEORIES, with no almost no variations to speak of.

We are supposed to believe them because they are "experts", however, when experts use the EXACT SAME logical fallacy-laden theories as every other Truther...it isn't very convincing.

[1337m4n]

Hey I have an idea...why don't we make our own "X for 9/11 Truth" site.

Clowns, how about. How bout we make "Clowns for 9/11 Truth".

I just need to find a good webhost.

[Carefulplease]

Clowns, how about. How bout we make "Clowns for 9/11 Truth".

I just need to find a good webhost.

Here are some organizations the Truth Movement ought to set up before it is accorded any genuine credibility:

Otorhinolaryngologists for 9/11 Truth
Lighthouse-Keepers for 9/11 Truth
Bush Cabinet Members for 9/11 Truth
Forklift Operators for 9/11 Truth
Stock Fund Managers for 9/11 Truth
Wine Connoisseurs for 9/11 Truth
Proctologists for 9/11 Truth
Gynecologists for 9/11 Truth
Popes for 9/11 Truth
Dog Walkers for 9/11 Truth
Al Qaida Operatives for 9/11 Truth
Executioners for 9/11 Truth
Molecatchers for 9/11 Truth
Pawnbrokers for 9/11 Truth
Catholic Nuns for 9/11 Truth
British Queens for 9/11 Truth
Knifegrinders for 9/11 Truth
Japanese Schoolgirls for 9/11 Truth
Fortune-Tellers for 9/11 Truth
Bassoonists for 9/11 Truth
Prostitutes for 9/11 Truth
Yak Herders for 9/11 Truth
etc.

[Slayhamlet]

I've been thinking about starting an organization called "NWO Shills for 9/11 Truth".

[Jonnyclueless]

And the less known Amish Lepers for 9/11 truth. Mainly focusing their claims on the lack of electricity and mirrors needed.

[LashL]

Here are some organizations the Truth Movement ought to set up before it is accorded any genuine credibility:

Otorhinolaryngologists for 9/11 Truth
Lighthouse-Keepers for 9/11 Truth
Bush Cabinet Members for 9/11 Truth
Forklift Operators for 9/11 Truth
Stock Fund Managers for 9/11 Truth
Wine Connoisseurs for 9/11 Truth
Proctologists for 9/11 Truth
Gynecologists for 9/11 Truth
Popes for 9/11 Truth
Dog Walkers for 9/11 Truth
Al Qaida Operatives for 9/11 Truth
Executioners for 9/11 Truth
Molecatchers for 9/11 Truth
Pawnbrokers for 9/11 Truth
Catholic Nuns for 9/11 Truth
British Queens for 9/11 Truth
Knifegrinders for 9/11 Truth
Japanese Schoolgirls for 9/11 Truth
Fortune-Tellers for 9/11 Truth
Bassoonists for 9/11 Truth
Prostitutes for 9/11 Truth
Yak Herders for 9/11 Truth
etc.

:dl:

But, but, but.. how could you forget...

Catherders for 9/11 Truth?!?!?!:bigcat

[~enigma~]

:dl:

But, but, but.. how could you forget...

Catherders for 9/11 Truth?!?!?!:bigcat
Foley catheters for 9/11 truth :)

[Slayhamlet]

Foley catheters for 9/11 truth :)

heehee. At first glance I misread it as "catheter", too.

[LashL]

Foley catheters for 9/11 truth :)

heehee. At first glance I misread it as "catheter", too.

Yikes!

I guess I should have separated the words to make it more clear.... cat herders.... damn it, cat herders!

;)

[Carefulplease]

:dl:

But, but, but.. how could you forget...

Catherders for 9/11 Truth?!?!?!:bigcat

I didn't forget. I just choose to list organizations that did not already exist.

http://www.internetweekly.org/cartoons_2004/cartoon_ridge_cat_herding.html

[Triterope]

Catherders for 9/11 Truth?!?!?!:bigcat

At the risk of starting an awful new forum trend, the first thing that came to my mind when I saw this was "Lolcats for 9/11 Truth."
(http://kscakes.com/LolCats/)

[~enigma~]

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/5262/gotquestionsporkersfor9jm5.jpg

[Brainache]

Has anyone started the "Addle-brained Dingbats for 911truth" website yet? Coz I think there is a niche waiting for a market.

[Carefulplease]

At the risk of starting an awful new forum trend, the first thing that came to my mind when I saw this was "Lolcats for 9/11 Truth."
(http://kscakes.com/LolCats/)

This one also exists already, however it's been renamed Tincats for 9/11 truth by the founder.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x261/houlepn/CatTin.jpg

(I can't make the qimg tag work for some reason)

[~enigma~]

http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/7793/clownsaskquestionstoouguk7.jpg

[Foolmewunz]

Has anyone started the "Addle-brained Dingbats for 911truth" website yet? Coz I think there is a niche waiting for a market.

Yes, but it's known variously as Loose Change Forum, Louder Than Words, Pilots for 911 Truth, Scholars... etc.....

[Horatius]

Has anyone started the "Addle-brained Dingbats for 911truth" website yet? Coz I think there is a niche waiting for a market.



I came close:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2566823#post2566823

[Brainache]

Yes, but it's known variously as Loose Change Forum, Louder Than Words, Pilots for 911 Truth, Scholars... etc.....

I guess I just want the names of those sites to reflect the truth. Not gonna happen.

Reminds me of my childhood spent reading MAD Magazine: If CT sites said what they REALLY mean...

Nazis for Truth...
Dingbats for Truth...
Potheads for Truth... etc

[CptColumbo]

I already called "figure skaters for 9/11 truth," and I'm as much of a figure skater as the AE911 are engineers.

[Foolmewunz]

There are no generalists any longer. Everyone's a specialist. I believe the original post on this topic is correct. Ultimately the Scholars are splitting in two (at minimum) each taking part of the name. JDX and friends could split into Pilots for Truth> Military Pilots for Truth> Civil Aircraft Pilots for Truth > MS Flight Simulator Pilots for Truth....

I look forward to Left-Handed Logisticians Living Abroad Who Don't Own an Automobile for Truth. I might joint that one, but we'd probably have very small meetings.

[peteweaver]

Prosititutes for 9/11 truth could make an hillarious website.

[MortFurd]

Prosititutes for 9/11 truth could make an hillarious website.

I'd rather do "Porn stars f****** for 9/11 Truth."

There wouldn't be much more truth to it than from a typical truther site, but it'd be lots more fun to look at.

[Brainache]

I'd rather do "Porn stars f****** for 9/11 Truth."

There wouldn't be much more truth to it than from a typical truther site, but it'd be lots more fun to look at.

Adds new meaning to the phrases "Beam Weapon", "Inside Job" and "Pull It".

[peteweaver]

I'd rather do "Porn stars f****** for 9/11 Truth."

There wouldn't be much more truth to it than from a typical truther site, but it'd be lots more fun to look at.

God it would be funny to do that, a boogie nights style parody of loose change.

[Horatius]

Adds new meaning to the phrases "Beam Weapon", "Inside Job" and "Pull It".



I just don't want to see their simulation of the "collapsing towers".

[T.A.M.]

I have no problem with an "appeal to authority" if the appeal is to a genuine authority. The fallacy "appeal to authority", that is which you are speaking of, however, is very annoying.

Just because Fetzer has a phd in philosophy does not make him ANY KIND of authority on the collapses of the WTCs.

As well, even if the person is an authority on a subject of relevence, say, a mechanical or structural engineer, their opinion is useless if not backed up by scientific principles in line with their training...or a vetted paper to support their position.

TAM:)

[HyJinX]

I just don't want to see their simulation of the "collapsing towers".

...or anything "molten"...steel, metal or otherwise.

[MortFurd]

...or anything "molten"...steel, metal or otherwise.
How about a couple of squibs going off?

[Triterope]

I might join Left-Handed Logisticians Living Abroad Who Don't Own an Automobile for Truth, but we'd probably have very small meetings.

And this would vary from other 9-11 Truth organizations how?

[Foolmewunz]

And this would vary from other 9-11 Truth organizations how?

Well, we (I) would actually be what (we) I claim to be. That'd already differentiate us from "Scholars", "AE", and "Pilots"....

[T.A.M.]

How about "Goofs for 9/11 Twoofs"

TAM;)

[pomeroo]

Prosititutes for 9/11 truth could make an hillarious website.



"Buy our video and get screwed for less than the cost of a bad... "

Well, you get the idea.

[pomeroo]

Double post.

[negativ]

They don't control the media of other nations. The media of other nations doen't get into the USA or Canada.

Well, THAT was easy (http://www.google.com/search?q=world+newspapers). Obviously someone at MINITRUE is asleep at the wheel.

[negativ]

No, he didn't confess. That taped confession shown on CNN had its main character that didn't even look like bin Laden. When I saw that tape for the first time my heart sank because I realized that many people would actually believe that was bin Laden.

The guy on the tape was 50 lb's overweight, had a "pug" nose as opposed to bin Ladens "ski slope nose" and had much darker skin than bin Laden.

Odly enough the audio was missing. That tape was someone else planning his daughters wedding for all we know.

Who's this guy (http://memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=791#)? Maybe he was the Klezmer DJ at the wedding?

Hmm. Maybe it's George W. Bush himself in a rubber mask. (http://www.memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=952)

Or maybe Eddie Murphy in a screen test for The Nutty Professor (http://www.memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=953).



AND BY THE WAY:

One of these (http://webpages.charter.net/negativ/img/troof/1.gif) kids is not (http://webpages.charter.net/negativ/img/troof/2.jpg) like the other one... (http://webpages.charter.net/negativ/img/troof/3.jpg)

But what evidence can you offer that they're NOT the same guy?

[lapman]

What about Phlegmish Yak Yodelers for 911 Half Truths! Or Really Stupid People Who Would Like To Know 911 Truth If They Could Understand It?

[negativ]

OT III Scientologists for 9/11 Truth: Because It Can ALWAYS Get Crazier.

[lapman]

Then there is ADHD Kids For 9/ oh what a pretty flower, I need to jump up and down........

[HyJinX]

Chicks With D**ks for 9/11 Truth

Motto: We know you're hiding something!

[John Blonn]

Alright, with all this talk about 9/11 truth organizations, I think it's time I debut my own.

Yes, it's true, I'm a truther.

Go here to experience my new organization: Beholders for 9/11 Truth! (http://www.geocities.com/deconst911/)

[T.A.M.]

Alright, with all this talk about 9/11 truth organizations, I think it's time I debut my own.

Yes, it's true, I'm a truther.

Go here to experience my new organization: Beholders for 9/11 Truth! (http://www.geocities.com/deconst911/)

So is your new organization accepting Goblins...Goblins for 9/11 Truth.

Whoohooo

TAM:)

[Furcifer]

This is possibly the funniest derailment in the history of teh interweb.

[ktesibios]

Japanese Schoolgirls for 9/11 Truth


Which demands:

Tentacle Monsters for 9/11 Truth. ;)

[~enigma~]

German Goo Girl's for 9/11 Truth :)

[BeAChooser]

BeAChooser:

Could you please provide a reference to the EPA expert that Dr Jones quoted concerning the WTC spheres who you claim has published a report explaining them.

Thanks!


I must apologize. I was incorrect when I said that Steven Jones cited an EPA expert about the iron spheres who had provided in a report a reasonable explanation for them. I misremembered what I'd read.

What I was thinking of was a webpage that quotes a UC Davis air-quality expert named Thomas Cahill who testified at an EPA hearing. And what he said contradicted a statement by Christopher Bollyn in a May 24 article at GlobalResearch.ca titled "Why are Honest 9/11 Researchers Targeted". In that article Bollyn wrote "I took Jones' research to the University of California at Davis where I met with Professor Thomas Cahill. Cahill had collected data and analyzed the smoke (with a Davis DRUM) that rose from the WTC debris pile from early October until Christmas 2001. The extraordinary abundance of nano-size particles in the smoke indicated that the molten metal beneath the towers was hotter than the boiling point of iron and the other metals found in the bluish smoke. This is the kind of evidence that those who support the official version hate."

What I found in a document at xttp://delta.ucdavis.edu/WTC.htm (change the x to an h) was this:

************

"The fuming World Trade Center debris pile was a chemical factory that exhaled pollutants in particularly dangerous forms that could penetrate deep into the lungs of workers at Ground Zero, says a new study by UC Davis air-quality experts.

The new work helps explain the very fine particles and extraordinarily high concentrations found by an earlier UC Davis study, the first to identify very fine metallic aerosols in unprecedented amounts from Ground Zero. It will be essential to understanding the growing record of health problems.

The conditions would have been "brutal" for people working at Ground Zero without respirators and slightly less so for those working or living in immediately adjacent buildings, said the study's lead author, Thomas Cahill, a UC Davis professor emeritus of physics and atmospheric science and research professor in engineering.

"Now that we have a model of how the debris pile worked, it gives us a much better idea of what the people working on and near the pile were actually breathing," Cahill said. "Our first report was based on particles that we collected one mile away. This report gives a reasonable estimate of what type of pollutants were actually present at Ground Zero.

"The debris pile acted like a chemical factory. It cooked together the components of the buildings and their contents, including enormous numbers of computers, and gave off gases of toxic metals, acids and organics for at least six weeks."

*************

The last line seems to offer a perfectly reasonable and relatively ordinary (ie, one not involving thermite) explanation for the composition of the dust Cahill found. Guess I overstated my case, didn't I.:blush:

[Triterope]

How about Conspiracy Theorists for 9-11 Truth? We sure couldn't question their qualifications...

[Furcifer]

I must apologize. I was incorrect when I said that Steven Jones cited an EPA expert about the iron spheres who had provided in a report a reasonable explanation for them. I misremembered what I'd read.

What I was thinking of was a webpage that quotes a UC Davis air-quality expert named Thomas Cahill who testified at an EPA hearing. And what he said contradicted a statement by Christopher Bollyn in a May 24 article at GlobalResearch.ca titled "Why are Honest 9/11 Researchers Targeted". In that article Bollyn wrote "I took Jones' research to the University of California at Davis where I met with Professor Thomas Cahill. Cahill had collected data and analyzed the smoke (with a Davis DRUM) that rose from the WTC debris pile from early October until Christmas 2001. The extraordinary abundance of nano-size particles in the smoke indicated that the molten metal beneath the towers was hotter than the boiling point of iron and the other metals found in the bluish smoke. This is the kind of evidence that those who support the official version hate."

What I found in a document at xttp://delta.ucdavis.edu/WTC.htm (change the x to an h) was this:

************

"The fuming World Trade Center debris pile was a chemical factory that exhaled pollutants in particularly dangerous forms that could penetrate deep into the lungs of workers at Ground Zero, says a new study by UC Davis air-quality experts.

The new work helps explain the very fine particles and extraordinarily high concentrations found by an earlier UC Davis study, the first to identify very fine metallic aerosols in unprecedented amounts from Ground Zero. It will be essential to understanding the growing record of health problems.

The conditions would have been "brutal" for people working at Ground Zero without respirators and slightly less so for those working or living in immediately adjacent buildings, said the study's lead author, Thomas Cahill, a UC Davis professor emeritus of physics and atmospheric science and research professor in engineering.

"Now that we have a model of how the debris pile worked, it gives us a much better idea of what the people working on and near the pile were actually breathing," Cahill said. "Our first report was based on particles that we collected one mile away. This report gives a reasonable estimate of what type of pollutants were actually present at Ground Zero.

"The debris pile acted like a chemical factory. It cooked together the components of the buildings and their contents, including enormous numbers of computers, and gave off gases of toxic metals, acids and organics for at least six weeks."

*************

The last line seems to offer a perfectly reasonable and relatively ordinary (ie, one not involving thermite) explanation for the composition of the dust Cahill found. Guess I overstated my case, didn't I.:blush:

This is a particularly interesting aspect of 9/11 wish some of the forum would discuss in more detail. I'm particularly interested in the gypsum and what chemical reactions are statistically favorable in the pile. (gypsum itself is a very interesting in its fabrication, the exothermic nature of the cure process)

[Apollo20]

BeAChooser:

When you say "Guess I overstated my case, didn't I."

No! You were totally incorrect; Prof. Cahill wasn't even talking about micro-spheres. I have had many discussions with Prof. Cahill on the WTC emissions so I can speak with certitude on this topic....

Please try to be more accurate and less "misremembering"... Thank you.

[AZCat]

It looks like the AE9/11Truth forum (http://ae911truth.org/community/) is up and running again, but not all of it is visible to the public.

I hope their having a good time validating their own beliefs.

[boloboffin]

Bohemian Grovers for 9/11 Truth

[LashL]

"Chemists Who Harbour Irrational Hatred Toward Engineers" for 9/11 Truth.

[Brainache]

Lawyers for 9/11 Litigants - ie a website for certain unscrupulous members of the Bar who wish to cash in on the nutjobs. Cash up front, no refunds.

[bje]

Cargo Cults for 9/11 Truth is already active.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6370991.stm

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_15939467d100256bf4.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6520)

[T.A.M.]

It looks like the AE9/11Truth forum (http://ae911truth.org/community/) is up and running again, but not all of it is visible to the public.

I hope their having a good time validating their own beliefs.

How much will you wager that they will not be posting a names list or a qualifications list this time...lol

TAM:)

[AZCat]

How much will you wager that they will not be posting a names list or a qualifications list this time...lol

TAM:)

Gage has posted a new "welcome" in the public area of the forum:

Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:59 pm Post subject: Welcome to our new forum
We now have over 100 A/E's as well as numerous "Others and A/E students" with many more waiting to be verified! This is an extraordinary response and represents a very loud voice from technical building professionals demanding a new investigation by Congress into the 3 WTC high-rise "collapses" on 9/11! Our website has tens of thousands of hits since it launched on Memorial Day 2007, and I now have speaking engagements coming up all across the country and am doing an interview on some radio program every week. We're getting overwhelming positive support from the 9/11 Truth community in about 100 emails per day!

Our mission is to research and to disseminate the facts of the controlled demolitions of the Twin Towers and Building #7 to every architect and engineer in North America and around the world. To this end we began a public discussion forum when we launched the website on Memorial Day which was met with quite an effort by non-members with a different agenda intending to distract us from productive discussion. We therefore re-formatted the forum because we were spending too much of our time moderating it.

Today we have completed our new Discussion Forum! Posts on this forum will be met with constructive discussion and support from other members. Only members may post and anyone can become a member by joining us in calling upon Congress for a truly independent investigation into the 3 WTC High-rise "collapses" on 9/11 and your name will be listed on the website along with the rest of us. (And any member may be removed from the forum for violating the posted forum rules.) The discussions are member-only viewable to provide a safe, productive environment. Certain research results will be displayed publicly here so that the 9/11 Truth community may also benefit from the research that will be shared.

We look forward to a very positive experience with the new forum! Many of you have already submitted extremely important research and topics for discussion. Let's get them all posted so we can learn from each other and build our research database.

Welcome members — let's get to work. There is much to be done!!

Sincerely,

Richard Gage, AIA

Apparently a "safe, productive environment" means one in which the members of AE9/11Truth won't have to be exposed to dissenting voices, nor will they have their posts scrutinized by others (too bad - the Stundies could have used another source).

[BeAChooser]

Notice that they haven't even removed "Massimo Dell'Affidabilità" (maximum reliability) from the list of *members*? ROTFLOL!

[Triterope]

Notice that they haven't even removed "Massimo Dell'Affidabilità" (maximum reliability) from the list of *members*?

Or Peter Gibbons from Office Space.

Or names that are recognizable as debunkers, who are apparently still having fun at their expense.

Or "Am Amnusydcjkorn." Seriously, does any real word in any language have "ydcjk" in the middle of it?

[Architect]

As an aside, by way of Doc I've challeneged Gage and co to a professional to professional debate on the subject. Last time I heard, there was a resounding silence from them.

Which seems strange, if they're so keen to spread the Truth and have nothing to hid from peer level review of their arguments.

[chipmunk stew]

Cargo Cults for 9/11 Truth is already active.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6370991.stm

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_15939467d100256bf4.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6520)
:dl:

[AZCat]

As an aside, by way of Doc I've challeneged Gage and co to a professional to professional debate on the subject. Last time I heard, there was a resounding silence from them.

Which seems strange, if they're so keen to spread the Truth and have nothing to hid from peer level review of their arguments.

Didn't you read Gage's notice when they temporarily closed the forum? IIRC it read "the time for debate has passed." He is not interested in having anyone challenge his beliefs. For all their mouthing about "just asking questions" and just wanting a "new investigation" they're a remarkably close-minded group.

[Unsecured Coins]

Legless Skateboarders for 9/11 truth!

[Architect]

In the UK Legless means "drunk".

[Unsecured Coins]

hmmm... I like Drunk Skateboarders for 9/11 truth better. Where do I send the Royalties

[peteweaver]

Heroin addicts for 9/11 truth

[T.A.M.]

I am guessing we are not going to get access to these "100 A/Es" that he is now bragging about. So much for the vetting process...Guess we will have to take his word for it...cause you know truthers never lie.

TAM:)

[uk_dave]

Well, if it gets out that some of the A&E faithful are not as qualified as the site proclaims, then the person who did the vetting may well be for the chop.

Of course, if the owner of the site wanted to try to get away with not having real qualified people as members but wanted to cover his ass in the event that this is found out, he might try to find a fall guy, a patsy, to take the rap.

I wonder who the fall guy for A&Etruth will be.......

[T.A.M.]

Well without listing them, it doesnt lend itself to any sort of legimitacy. I mean, I could just as easily set up a site and "claim" I have 5000 Engineers that support the official story of 9/11. How am I to be proved right or wrong?

TAM:)

[AZCat]

Well without listing them, it doesnt lend itself to any sort of legimitacy. I mean, I could just as easily set up a site and "claim" I have 5000 Engineers that support the official story of 9/11. How am I to be proved right or wrong?

TAM:)

They've provided a list of the signees (http://www.ae911truth.org/joinus.php) (both "verified" and unverified), but the forum where these people are supposedly posting is mostly off-limits to the rest of us. We could look up the names and locations of the people on the list and verify for ourselves that they exist and are supporters of Gage's aims. I've actually thought about doing that for one of the P.E.s listed - he's in the same city as me and I work with a guy who used to work with him. I have no idea how I'd approach it though - I have only dealt with the truthers I know and consider friends, not strangers (especially strangers within the same professional community as me).

[SpitfireIX]

Cargo Cults for 9/11 Truth is already active.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6370991.stm

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_15939467d100256bf4.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6520)


My mother is a retired English teacher, and she once showed me a writing assignment she had given that involved reading an article on cargo cults and writing an essay about the material. She said, "This is a great topic, because it's so easy for students to fall into the trap of being judgmental."
She asked me if I'd ever heard of cargo cults, and I said that I had, not because of my tremendous interest in the war in the Pacific, but from having read Dream Park (http://www.amazon.com/Dream-Park-Larry-Niven/dp/0441167306) by Larry Niven and Stephen Barnes when I was in high school.

Either the article or the afterword to Dream Park mentioned that one particular cult's members, having observed some airplanes "laying eggs," decided that if they could "hatch" an "airplane egg" that they had found, it would "grow" into a cargo plane. They decided that warming the "airplane egg" up would help it "hatch," so they built a large fire under it.

:covereyes :explode

[Jonnyclueless]

Legalize Pot for 9/11 Truth.

[Hokulele]

Stoners for 9 . . . . . . . . . what?

[beachnut]

They've provided a list of the signees (http://www.ae911truth.org/joinus.php) (both "verified" and unverified), but the forum where these people are supposedly posting is mostly off-limits to the rest of us. We could look up the names and locations of the people on the list and verify for ourselves that they exist and are supporters of Gage's aims. I've actually thought about doing that for one of the P.E.s listed - he's in the same city as me and I work with a guy who used to work with him. I have no idea how I'd approach it though - I have only dealt with the truthers I know and consider friends, not strangers (especially strangers within the same professional community as me).
If they are nut cases you can just tell him you disagree with factor-XYZ that A&EFT support. If he is a nut case he will say you are wrong and ask you why you are closed minded, or a buffoon. I would say I am glad I am a buffoon, hope to work with you soon.

It would be funny if someone signed him up and he misunderstands what the group is doing. If he is a cult member of 9/11 truth, unless he is important to your future, it will show quickly I suspect.

If I have time or you find an email or two, I will gladly write an email from me to them without further reference or intent past finding out why they support the AE guys. I will have no repercussions from asking some A&E about their 9/11 ideas and membership. (just hope I do not have to get another job soon)

[negativ]

I really wish I had the necessary resources to launch a new online dating website: Singles for 9/11 Truth (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/46228).

[Triterope]

Stoners for 9 . . . . . . . . . what?

Stoners for 4/20 Truth.

[~enigma~]

We are really screwed now. They got Lucifer on their side :)

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/9828/satanfor911truthmr9.jpg

[Jonnyclueless]

Necro-Beastial anal sex addicts for 9/11 truth is more of a niche group, but showing their support.

OK, I went too far...

[peteweaver]

How about convicted fraudsters for 9/11 truth? members of organisation have to submit photographic proof of criminal records to gain membership, but enthusiastic amateurs who falsify their criminal records may be given honoury membership, if their con is up to a sufficient standard ?....

[grmcdorman]

Pathological liars for 9/11 Truth.

[JamesB]

Pathological liars for 9/11 Truth.

I think that would be redundant.

[lapman]

Amputee Pole Dancers for 9/11 Truth

Gay and Lesbian Hermaphrodites for 9/11 Truth

Blond Val Girls for Like 911 Totally Hot Guys!

[Garb]

I think that would be redundant.
More like too general...

[grmcdorman]

Pathological liars for 9/11 Truth.I think that would be redundant.More like too general...What's wrong with (nearly) all-inclusive? :p

How about Cherry Pickers for 9/11 Truth? (Reader's choice as to which sort of cherry picking. :D )

Or Illiterates for 9/11 Truth.

[uk_dave]

Dyslexics fro 1/91 turth?

[twinstead]

Dyslexics fro 1/91 turth?


I like it! Dyslexics fro 1/91 turth, UNTIE!

[peteweaver]

How about online gift shops for 9/11 memorabilia dvd's and cash

[Mr. Skinny]

I like it! Dyslexics fro 1/91 turth, UNTIE!
How about Dyslexic Borg for 9/11 truth: Your ass will be laminated

[AZCat]

If they are nut cases you can just tell him you disagree with factor-XYZ that A&EFT support. If he is a nut case he will say you are wrong and ask you why you are closed minded, or a buffoon. I would say I am glad I am a buffoon, hope to work with you soon.

It would be funny if someone signed him up and he misunderstands what the group is doing. If he is a cult member of 9/11 truth, unless he is important to your future, it will show quickly I suspect.

If I have time or you find an email or two, I will gladly write an email from me to them without further reference or intent past finding out why they support the AE guys. I will have no repercussions from asking some A&E about their 9/11 ideas and membership. (just hope I do not have to get another job soon)

We'll see. It's possible that I'll run into the guy at one of the professional organization meetings - we probably belong to the same ones. I'll try to find email addresses for other engineers listed - it wouldn't be a bad idea to "plumb" their status as members. Like you said, they may have been rooked into joining.

[Horatius]

How about online gift shops for 9/11 memorabilia dvd's and cash



Far too close to the actual truth to be acceptable, I'm afraid :)

[LashL]

On second thought, post deleted.

If atty1chgo shows up again to spout his nonsense, I'll post it then.

[WildCat]

On second thought, post deleted.

If atty1chgo shows up again to spout his nonsense, I'll post it then.
He didn't last long, did he?

[PhantomWolf]

BeAChooser:

When you say "Guess I overstated my case, didn't I."

No! You were totally incorrect; Prof. Cahill wasn't even talking about micro-spheres. I have had many discussions with Prof. Cahill on the WTC emissions so I can speak with certitude on this topic....

Please try to be more accurate and less "misremembering"... Thank you.

BeAChooser,

Don't worry about Apollo20, he's just got a chip on his shoulder the size of Wisconsin and so has never learned how to have a polite discussion.

[Apollo20]

PhantomWolf:

Hey, I said please.... and thank you....

[PhantomWolf]

It was the bit before the "please" and "thank you". We all make mistakes and sometimes remember things wrong, at least us humans do. Jumping all over a new poster for admiting to a mistake isn't that polite.

[MortFurd]

Amputee Pole Dancers for 9/11 Truth

Gay and Lesbian Hermaphrodites for 9/11 Truth

Blond Val Girls for Like 911 Totally Hot Guys!
I saw one of those about twenty years ago. I didn't mind the missing arm, but she was ugly and couldn't dance either.

[MortFurd]

Heroin addicts for 9/11 truth
Did some of the "Truth" finally ooze out of the drug soaked brains?
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2609701#post2609701

[BeAChooser]

No! You were totally incorrect; Prof. Cahill wasn't even talking about micro-spheres. I have had many discussions with Prof. Cahill on the WTC emissions so I can speak with certitude on this topic....

So perhaps Professor Cahill or you should notify Bollyn and Jones.

**********

http://www.iamthewitness.com/Bollyn-Physical-Evidence-of-Thermite.html

STEVEN JONES -
The Physical Evidence of Thermite in the WTC Dust

by Christopher Bollyn
16 May 2007

Professor Jones provides an explanation for Professor Cahill's discovery of ultra-fine particles in the air, which Bollyn wrote about last year: Bollyn-ProfCahill.html

http://www.iamthewitness.com/img/WTC-iron-rich-sphere.JPG

Photo: Micrograph from USGS report confirms presence of iron-rich spheres in the dust produced during destruction of the World Trade Center.

How were the required high temperatures produced?

... snip ...

***********

[BillyRayValentine]

I keep trying to join AE for Truth, but get at an error message after I submit. What gives?

[Triterope]

I keep trying to join AE for Truth, but get at an error message after I submit. What gives?

I tried joining AE911Truth, but my computer said it was corrupt.

(Thank you, you've been a great audience. Try the veal.)

[Arus808]

How were the required high temperatures produced?


Did you notice the during the time between 9/11/2001 and when that "sample" was collected that rescue operations were WELL underway.

[lapman]

So perhaps Professor Cahill or you should notify Bollyn and Jones.

**********

http://www.iamthewitness.com/Bollyn-Physical-Evidence-of-Thermite.html

STEVEN JONES -
The Physical Evidence of Thermite in the WTC Dust

by Christopher Bollyn
16 May 2007

Professor Jones provides an explanation for Professor Cahill's discovery of ultra-fine particles in the air, which Bollyn wrote about last year: Bollyn-ProfCahill.html

http://www.iamthewitness.com/img/WTC-iron-rich-sphere.JPG

Photo: Micrograph from USGS report confirms presence of iron-rich spheres in the dust produced during destruction of the World Trade Center.

How were the required high temperatures produced?

... snip ...

***********
How do we know that the sphered didn't already exist in say, the Portland Cement used in the concrete? Dr. Jones is just making an assumption that the spheres were created during the WTC collapses. Of course, he also believes in gravity defying thermite. So why am I not surprised.