Adventures with AE911truth

[peteweaver]

I've got the attention of their recruiter Doug Plumb.

Hi Peter, my name is Doug Plumb and I am helping Richard Gage verify members that have signed onto our site to filter out pranksters.
Could you fax us something that shows your qualifications for verification ? Our fax number is 866 869 1181My response:
Doug, I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in joining your organisation.
I'm a trained engineer and I wish to protest against what you are doing.
If you'd read the additional information I'd added with my 'joining up' bit, you'd have seen that I was infact disagreeing with you.

Your organisation seem to be going against established metallurgical convention, and ignores the fundamental principles of bending moments. I object to that most strongly.
You of all people should know what happens to hot rolled martensitic steel when it gets above 300 degrees C, its maleable, and the hotter it gets the softer it gets.
The softer it gets the weaker it gets.

You should know that other steel structures have failed due to fire. For example Piper Alpha, Mumbai High North, the floors above floor 17 of the Windsor tower for instance....
There were even beam failiures in the Cardington fire tests (carried out by the building research establishment), the failiures were arrested by the tensile strength of composite floor slabs, which bore the load and held the structure together at a point where the steel beams were too soft to bear the load.

There is plenty of information about the cardington fire tests here:
http://www.mace.manchester.ac.uk/project/research/structures/strucfire/materialInFire/Steel/default.htm

You seem to be implying that in a building where tens of thousands of people worked every day, a covert team came in stripped away fire proofing, precut load bearing columns and mounted cutter charges, then put everything back as it was in preparation for the attack. Its preposterous.

THE SERIOUS QUESTION THAT YOU REALLY SHOULD BE ASKING IS NOT HOW DID THE TOWERS FALL, (STRUCTURAL DAMAGE + FIRE ANSWERS THAT ONE), BUT HOW AND WHY, WERE 19 MEN ABLE TO PASS THROUGH AIRPORT METAL DETECTORS CARRYING KNIVES, BOARD AEROPLANES, AND KILL PEOPLE.

That is the serious point, that none of you 'truthers' seem to be missing.

I also object to the way your forum has been taken down because some people have asked questions you do not like.

If you are interested in seeing my qualifications (BTEC Civil Engineering, and City & Guilds Electronic Engineering, admittedly I'm not degree level, but I had to get your attention), I'm happy to photograph them and show you the jpegs, BUT I am NOT interested in joining your organisation.

Yours sincerely Peter Weaver.

P.s. Please check out the following websites:-

http://www.structuralfiresafety.com (http://www.structuralfiresafety.com/)

http://www.steelinfire.org.uk (http://www.steelinfire.org.uk/)

http://www.corusconstruction.com/en/design_and_innovation/structural_design/fire/steelwork_fire_resistance/
His response:

Peter,

There were pools of molten metal observed at the site after the collapses. Jet fuel will not do this.

No one is saying that the buildings may have been prewired but people who work in offices never look at what mainainance workers are doing so it is possible. The Oklahoma Murrah building had explosives in it. A navy bomb expert testified that the official version of the OKC bombing was impossible.

Dr. Bill Deagle thinks it was a mini nuke. The conventional explanation does not explain what Judy Woods has uncovered. She gives a talk with photos on her site Google "jane Doe Judy Wood". She is a Phd Structural Engineer and has other related degrees in material science. No one is more qualified than Judy Wood.

You should take a closer look at the actual evidence. http://www.911weknow.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=19

Why does the FEMA report say our report has a "low probability of occurance" and fail to investigate any other hypothesis ? The official versions, NIST or FEMA do not say what the media says that they say.

I will take your name off the list.

I am particularly amused by his reference to the laughable mini nuke theory.



He also explained in another email why their forum was taken down:

The forum had to be taken down because of pranksers and people lying about their qualifications. Its impossible to have an honest debate with people from your side.


Another email from him:
I've read Bezants paper but not enough to understand it. Its BS and full of unreasonable assumptions according to experts on our side. He had to work backwards from his conclusions so the math would add up. I'm not a believer in qualifications but if you say you read that paper you are implying that you understood all that math. Having taught technologists math from all over the country I find that highly doubtful. I don't care about qualifications but you must always use dishonesty to support your arguement.

The mini nuke theory explains most of the evidence. The NIST and FEMA reports do not. Nukes have been around since the 40's it would be silly to think advanced forms of nukes have not been developed. Its entirely possible that low yield mini nukes have been created. Nuke technology for building demolition was built in the 50's.

The collapse of wtc7 shows it was a contolled demolition. The FEMA report discredits itself and the NIST report is not an investigation and its conclusions are nothing more than a hypothesis.

I can't have this arguement with you because it will just be a waste of time.

Typical ct mindset, which is a shame because an engineer should know better.

[bonavada]

excellent response bravo.


Dr. Bill Deagle thinks it was a mini nuke. The conventional explanation does not explain what Judy Woods has uncovered. She gives a talk with photos on her site Google "jane Doe Judy Wood". She is a Phd Structural Engineer and has other related degrees in material science. No one is more qualified than Judy Wood.


reading that i think my brain went clunkity-clunk.

BV

[Architect]

I would love to debate with these clowns in a professional forum architect to architect.

[MarkyX]

Another nail on their coffin...

Or should we just start making another coffin?

[DGM]

I would love to debate with these clowns in a professional forum architect to architect.
Richard Gage will never debate anyone on these matters. He is in it for profit only and he knows it. I have accused him of this in a private email exchange after which he broke off communication without a single word of defense on his part.

[Newtons Bit]

I've read Bezants paper but not enough to understand it. Its BS and full of unreasonable assumptions according to experts on our side.


I think this is the tell. He doesn't have the understanding to do the research himself, because he can't. He's not smart enough to figure it out, but he has the typical CT mindset that "something's wrong", so he trusts whoever will tell him that something is in fact wrong.

The fact that he thinks the Alfred Murrah building had multiple explosive in it is just another example that the guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Any structural engineer can look at the building, knowing that it was constructed with ordinary concrete moment frames, and easily see how that collapse progressed from the failure of one single column.

[SpitfireIX]

I just checked their web site. This Doug Plumb character is a EE, so he has virtually no credentials to evaluate WTC collapse theories.

[Totovader]

Another nail on their coffin...

Or should we just start making another coffin?

It's one coffin per expert, so they're done.

[uk_dave]

I just checked their web site. This Doug Plumb character is a EE, so he has virtually no credentials to evaluate WTC collapse theories.

I spent most of my brief time at their forum debating with Doug Plumb.

He's clueless.

[Slayhamlet]

What's an EE? Electrical engineer?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Another nail on their coffin...

Or should we just start making another coffin?
Just let them rot in the streets where the vultures can get to them.

[slyjoe]

What's an EE? Electrical engineer?

Yep.

[JamesB]

No one is saying that the buildings may have been prewired but people who work in offices never look at what mainainance workers are doing so it is possible. The Oklahoma Murrah building had explosives in it. A navy bomb expert testified that the official version of the OKC bombing was impossible.

Wow, this is beyond bizarre.

[SpitfireIX]

What's an EE? Electrical engineer?


Yes. My apologies for using engineering jargon without explaining it for the benefit of those unfamiliar.

[T.A.M.]

I will tell you something we all know, but it needs to be said every now and then.

No matter who you are, no matter how many facts you know on 9/11, no matter what your expertese...you WILL NEVER convince a truther that 9/11 happened the way we know it did. I may be wrong, but I am willing to bet that every truther who converted back to reality (we have a few here) did so upon their own reflection of all they had read, not by a single persons arguement.

The key for me, is this...I NEVER argue with a truther, to convince him of squat. As a matter of fact, i will often deliberately debate with he or she in a less effective manner, simply to make them bring forward their own silliness for those WATCHING to see. It is those who sit at ring side that I get into the rign for.

TAM:)

[peteweaver]

I will tell you something we all know, but it needs to be said every now and then.

No matter who you are, no matter how many facts you know on 9/11, no matter what your expertese...you WILL NEVER convince a truther that 9/11 happened the way we know it did. I may be wrong, but I am willing to bet that every truther who converted back to reality (we have a few here) did so upon their own reflection of all they had read, not by a single persons arguement.

The key for me, is this...I NEVER argue with a truther, to convince him of squat. As a matter of fact, i will often deliberately debate with he or she in a less effective manner, simply to make them bring forward their own silliness for those WATCHING to see. It is those who sit at ring side that I get into the rign for.

TAM:)

To be honest TAM, I didn't really expect to convert him, I just wanted to show him that there is a great deal of opposition, to his 'truth'. And by talking to him, I've been able to get an insight into how he thinks, I was quite suprised to see that he supports the mini nuke theory.

[beachnut]

I just checked their web site. This Doug Plumb character is a EE, so he has virtually no credentials to evaluate WTC collapse theories.
We had physics and math and stuff. The stuff is the killer. I will agree, the EE may not help in the structure things, but I can do the energy stuff, and in the case of the WTC, energy does a good job showing what is possible. (statics, dynamics, et al)

a double E can do everything, fly faster than sound, leap and fall on his face...

[R.Mackey]

I'd agree with that -- some EE's I've known have been exceptionally clever and well-rounded in their training.

Look at me, I only have a little bit of training relevant to structures (a year of FEA from the civil engineering department, and a year of solid mechanics). However, I know experimental design, data analysis, and mathematics well enough to hold my own in nearly any field. If I can't make my own argument, I can almost always understand someone else's.

Always avoid the argument from authority.

As for these folks, pointing out deficiencies in their credentials is hardly the best argument. These people believe in "mini-nukes," for crying out loud.

[AZCat]

I'd agree with that -- some EE's I've known have been exceptionally clever and well-rounded in their training.

Look at me, I only have a little bit of training relevant to structures (a year of FEA from the civil engineering department, and a year of solid mechanics). However, I know experimental design, data analysis, and mathematics well enough to hold my own in nearly any field. If I can't make my own argument, I can almost always understand someone else's.

Always avoid the argument from authority.

As for these folks, pointing out deficiencies in their credentials is hardly the best argument. These people believe in "mini-nukes," for crying out loud.

Out of curiosity, what's your "bach" in - mechanical?

Anyone who believes in the "mini-nuke" theory of 9/11 is not using the resources available. A quick read of the history of the "Plowshare" project will clarify a number of the issues preventing this sort of weapon from being developed. I do not expect any of the members of AE9/11Truth to do this, though - it would present a conundrum of the type most of them do their best to avoid (being forced to choose between a pet theory and reality).

[slyjoe]

We had physics and math and stuff. The stuff is the killer. I will agree, the EE may not help in the structure things, but I can do the energy stuff, and in the case of the WTC, energy does a good job showing what is possible. (statics, dynamics, et al)

a double E can do everything, fly faster than sound, leap and fall on his face...

I am assuming you're an EE? When I was an undergrad, we had a BOATLOAD of physics, thermo, math, statistics, etc. We even had people that dropped EE and became math majors because of the math. (I still don't know why we had to do tensors - I never used it after the class).

Granted, minimal structures education, but just the logical reasoning of some of these people boggles my mind.

[R.Mackey]

No, my BAs are Mathematics and Physics. We didn't have an engineering school at my alma mater excepting only computer engineering, and I had plenty of time, so I covered all of the bases before moving into Aeronautics. I trained with hard-core experimentalists and have never regretted it.

I've never understood what about the collapses in any way suggested a nuclear device to anyone. We have the likes of Ace Baker rambling about mushroom clouds (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=76927), of course, but even among the Idiot Movement such people are rare and very special.

[AZCat]

No, my BAs are Mathematics and Physics. We didn't have an engineering school at my alma mater excepting only computer engineering, and I had plenty of time, so I covered all of the bases before moving into Aeronautics. I trained with hard-core experimentalists and have never regretted it.

I've never understood what about the collapses in any way suggested a nuclear device to anyone. We have the likes of Ace Baker rambling about mushroom clouds (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=76927), of course, but even among the Idiot Movement such people are rare and very special.

CalTech doesn't have an engineering department? I didn't know that. Gorgeous campus, though - designed by one of my favorite architects.


What about the collapses in any way suggests a directed energy weapon? Or thermite? Who the **** thinks up this stuff?

[SpitfireIX]

To be honest TAM, I didn't really expect to convert him, I just wanted to show him that there is a great deal of opposition, to his 'truth'. And by talking to him, I've been able to get an insight into how he thinks, I was quite suprised to see that he supports the mini nuke theory.


"Surprised" is not the word I would have chosen. I would have said "appalled." :jaw-dropp

[Hokulele]

I've never understood what about the collapses in any way suggested a nuclear device to anyone. We have the likes of Ace Baker rambling about mushroom clouds (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=76927), of course, but even among the Idiot Movement such people are rare and very special.


And pyroclastic flows (http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/Hazards/What/PF/pcflows.html). Grrrr...

[R.Mackey]

CalTech doesn't have an engineering department? I didn't know that. Gorgeous campus, though - designed by one of my favorite architects.

I went to Caltech (note lower case "t") for grad school -- and they have several engineering departments. Undergrad at UC Santa Cruz. Fabulous physics department, but soft on engineering.

[SpitfireIX]

I'd agree with that -- some EE's I've known have been exceptionally clever and well-rounded in their training.


Note that I said Plumb has virtually no credentials to evaluate the WTC collapse theory--I didn't say he doesn't have the skills (though it's painfully obvious from his exchange with peteweaver that he doesn't).

[AZCat]

I went to Caltech (note lower case "t") for grad school -- and they have several engineering departments. Undergrad at UC Santa Cruz. Fabulous physics department, but soft on engineering.

Whoops - I apologize. I will try to remember the proper capitalization in the future.

And pyroclastic flows (http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/Hazards/What/PF/pcflows.html). Grrrr...

Oh yeah - how could I forget this classic one? Boloboffin and I just recently went the rounds with a truther over at another site about the term. His whole argument was that since the term had already been co-opted by the truth movement, it was okay to use it (or something like that).

[Hokulele]

Oh yeah - how could I forget this classic one? Boloboffin and I just recently went the rounds with a truther over at another site about the term. His whole argument was that since the term had already been co-opted by the truth movement, it was okay to use it (or something like that).


:bwall

[Slayhamlet]

Whoops - I apologize. I will try to remember the proper capitalization in the future.



Oh yeah - how could I forget this classic one? Boloboffin and I just recently went the rounds with a truther over at another site about the term. His whole argument was that since the term had already been co-opted by the truth movement, it was okay to use it (or something like that).

Kinda like "squib".

[njslim]

My father is an EE with a Master of Science (retired). When I was in High
school would read (or more correctly try to read and understand) his old
college books. Had many books dealing with Metallurgy, mechanical and
civil engineering. Guess in the "OLD DAYS" expected a lot more from
students.....

[AZCat]

Kinda like "squib".

Or "free-fall speed".

We could do this all day, unfortunately. Terminology seems to be a weakness for many truthers (not that they'd acknowledge it).

[Unsecured Coins]

My flash program is screwed up. Otherwise I would had made a swf. of Dark Helmet going "FOOLED YOU!!" that you could e-mail back to him

[CHF]

No one is more qualified than Judy Wood.

Well that about sums up AE911truth!

How are these jokers being recieved in twoofer land? There was a lot of hype leading up to the site opening. "Finally we got some experts." Alas it was not to be.

[Civilized Worm]

I don't care about qualifications but you must always use dishonesty to support your arguement.


Hang on, is he saying that he supports dishonesty in favour of qualification?

[Hourglassmemory]

Another nail on their coffin...

Or should we just start making another coffin?

More like a Sarcophagus and the next thing you know they have entire pyramids built for them.
Pyramids!!! The all seeign eye!!!

[SpitfireIX]

Hang on, is he saying that he supports dishonesty in favour of qualification?


No, I believe his writing is merely careless. We can see several examples of carelessness in the quoted emails. I think by "you" he means "skeptics and debunkers."

[peteweaver]

Well that about sums up AE911truth!

How are these jokers being recieved in twoofer land? There was a lot of hype leading up to the site opening. "Finally we got some experts." Alas it was not to be.

I think it will only be a matter of time before IVXX and friends are accusing ae911truth of being disinfo agents. Lol.

I remember there was once a debate on infowarsforum.com discussing whether James Fetzer was an agent.

[Mangoose]

This Doug Plumb character is a EE, so he has virtually no credentials to evaluate WTC collapse theories.

Wouldn't an EE realize the utter improbability of WIRING up the two WTC towers for a controlled demolition without detection?

[Mangoose]

Sorry, what I meant was:

Wouldn't an sane EE realize the utter improbability of WIRING up the two WTC towers for a controlled demolition without detection?

Edited to add: Actually three towers, since 7 is a keystone to the demolition scenario.

[Gravy]

aetruth has handed its critics a maxi-nuke. What fools.

[gumboot]

I've never understood what about the collapses in any way suggested a nuclear device to anyone. We have the likes of Ace Baker rambling about mushroom clouds (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=76927), of course, but even among the Idiot Movement such people are rare and very special.


Well Dylan Avery once claimed that a flickering Burger King sign captured on a digital camera was evidence of an EMP from a nuke. Seriously.

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

And pyroclastic flows (http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/Hazards/What/PF/pcflows.html). Grrrr...


Hah that reminds me of something I just wrote in my paper:

Jeff King is a Conspiracy Theorist who thinks the tower collapses produced “pyroclastic flows”. Pyroclastic flows are clouds of super-heated gases as hot as 1000o C travelling as fast as 700km/h, and are only produced by volcanic eruptions.

I love offhandedly and quietly pointing out that Dr Griffin's sources are totally detached from reality.

-Gumboot

[Comsat Angel]

Mini-nukes?
I'm not familiar with the "Plowshares" programme, except to say that with spelling like that it must be American.
However. From what I recall, the Atomic Demolition Munition and Special Atomic Demolition Munition were what could be termed "mini-nukes". The SADAM in particular could be adjusted to give a tactically effective yield of between 0.15 to 0.05 kilotons, or 150 tons/50 tons of TNT if you want to be more mundane. They were to be utilised by SF teams who would target installations like airports, dams, major highway intersections, vehicle parks, etc.
What is the relevance of this? Prior to the detonation of Trinity, the US atomic weapons programme wanted to see what a truly large explosion looked like, how it behaved and what could be construed from it. So they built a 0.01 kiloton test site (i.e. 10 tons of TNT) and filmed the resultant explosion from a safe distance. The resultant fireball was enormous when filmed from literally miles away, and was one-fifth of the smallest yield of the smallest weapon able to be used in such a scenario.
Do the buffoons postulating "Mini-Nukes" really believe that a fission/fusion weapon was used on the Twin Towers? Or do they just want a Magic Big Bang Device that smashes buildings? because if the latter, they'd be better off touting Godzilla as being responsible for 9/11

[DGM]

Mini-nukes?
I'm not familiar with the "Plowshares" programme, except to say that with spelling like that it must be American.
However. From what I recall, the Atomic Demolition Munition and Special Atomic Demolition Munition were what could be termed "mini-nukes". The SADAM in particular could be adjusted to give a tactically effective yield of between 0.15 to 0.05 kilotons, or 150 tons/50 tons of TNT if you want to be more mundane. They were to be utilised by SF teams who would target installations like airports, dams, major highway intersections, vehicle parks, etc.
What is the relevance of this? Prior to the detonation of Trinity, the US atomic weapons programme wanted to see what a truly large explosion looked like, how it behaved and what could be construed from it. So they built a 0.01 kiloton test site (i.e. 10 tons of TNT) and filmed the resultant explosion from a safe distance. The resultant fireball was enormous when filmed from literally miles away, and was one-fifth of the smallest yield of the smallest weapon able to be used in such a scenario.
Do the buffoons postulating "Mini-Nukes" really believe that a fission/fusion weapon was used on the Twin Towers? Or do they just want a Magic Big Bang Device that smashes buildings? because if the latter, they'd be better off touting Godzilla as being responsible for 9/11
The hardware they use doesn't actually have to exist. It just has to sound cool.:D

[Comsat Angel]

Actually for Twoofers it has to be "Kewl", as I understand it.
Ah what the heck. I've got shirts to iron, which have more relevance to 9/11 than any CT fantasist.

[SpitfireIX]

Sorry, what I meant was:

Wouldn't an sane EE realize the utter improbability of WIRING up the two WTC towers for a controlled demolition without detection?

Edited to add: Actually three towers, since 7 is a keystone to the demolition scenario.


I thought of that, but it's remotely possible that his expertise is in computers and electronics, and he's basically clueless about anything that happens outside of an electronic device.

[Civilized Worm]

No, I believe his writing is merely careless. We can see several examples of carelessness in the quoted emails. I think by "you" he means "skeptics and debunkers."


I know, I just thought I'd treat it as an accidental confession in the way that twoofers do.

[Brainster]

Well that about sums up AE911truth!

How are these jokers being recieved in twoofer land? There was a lot of hype leading up to the site opening. "Finally we got some experts." Alas it was not to be.

It is my impression that Gage is rapidly becoming one of the superstars of the 9-11 Denial Movement. He's certainly popping up virtually on every list of speakers at "Truthercons". That's not to say he won't be history in six months; these guys have a shelf life about equal to the cover boys of teen magazines.

[AZCat]

Mini-nukes?
I'm not familiar with the "Plowshares" programme, except to say that with spelling like that it must be American.

You are correct - it was an American program, named after the biblical injunction to turn swords into plowshares. The Nevada Department of Energy site has a nice pdf FAQ on the Plowshare Program, available here (http://www.nv.doe.gov/library/factsheets.aspx) (it is the one titled "Plowshare Program").

The program was designed as a research and development activity to explore the technical and economic feasibility of using nuclear explosives for industrial applications. President Dwight D. Eisenhower introducted the concept in his "Atoms for Peace" speech before the United Nations on December 8, 1953. Eisenhower attempted to transform the atom fro a perceived tool of destruction into a benefit for mankind. The relatively inexpensive energy available from nuclear explosions could prove useful for a wide variety of peaceful purposes, such as: canals, harbors, highway and railroad cuts through mountains, open pit mining, dam construction, and other quarry and construction related projects. Underground nuclear explosions included stimulation of natural gas production, and formation of underground natural gas and petroleum storage reservoirs.

Guess why they didn't end up pursuing the program beyond 1975? The stimulation of natural gas production held promise, but all the other proposed civilian uses for nuclear weapons ran into the same problem: radiation. Nuclear weapons will never be "clean" in the sense that the 9/11 conspiracy theorists mean.

"Clean" is a misnomer anyway, since it really has to do with the amount of radioactive material used in the fission reaction compared to the amount used in the fusion reaction. Since multi-stage thermonuclear devices use most of the radioactive material in the fusion reaction, they are comparatively "clean" even though the initial fission trigger doesn't use all the material in the reaction - the mass of the material used in fusion is far greater than the mass of the material used in fission.

The "cleanest" nuclear weapon ever tested also happens to have been the largest - the "Tsar Bomba" ("King of Bombs") tested in 1961 by the Soviet Union. About 97% of the yield came from fusion, with a total yield of approximately 50 Megatons and a fission yield of about 1-1/2 Megatons. While it is a "clean" weapon in this sense, there was still a great deal of fallout.

[ref]

I've never understood what about the collapses in any way suggested a nuclear device to anyone. We have the likes of Ace Baker rambling about mushroom clouds (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=76927), of course, but even among the Idiot Movement such people are rare and very special.

Here is why some people think it was a mini-nuke. It's a long article and full of sheit, but some people actually believe even this.

http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/06/09/25/ward.htm

Declassified August 1958: "Mere fact that the U. S. has developed atomic munitions suitable for use in demolition work." Declassified January 1967, "The fact that we are interested in and are continuing studies on a weapon for minimizing the emerging flux of neutrons and internal induced activity." Declassified March 1976, "The fact of weapon laboratory interest in Minimum Residual Radiation (MRR) devices. The fact of successful development of MRR devices."

The factual evidence indicates that our government is using and has used 3rd or possibly 4th generation hydrogen bombs domestically and internationally. The evidence for international usage is not quite as strong as the domestic usage, but when domestic usage is considered, the international usage seems inescapable. The process of exclusion based on the known facts leaves only one viable option for the destruction of the World Trade Center (WTC) buildings - a relatively pure hydrogen bomb.

Just some of the facts are: widespread cancer in the responders, molten steel, melted cars, steel beams hurled hundreds of feet, aerosolized metals, vaporized steel witnessed and video, aerosolized and pulverized concrete, elevated tritium levels, vanishing (vaporized) victims, only sliver fragments of victims on roof tops, EMP - Electro Magnetic Pulse effects on communications, hundreds of eyewitness testimony of ancillary explosions by heroic rescuers and victims, massive dispersal of debris, demolition expert states hydrogen bomb needed for this type of demolition, audio of a massive explosion prior to collapse, video of ancillary explosions, audio of ancillary explosions, significant reduction in debris pile, ancillary thermate found in wreckage, shockwave of a mini yield nuclear blast knocked people off their feet, vaporization of 200,000 gallons of water...

And so on..

I wonder which demolition expert has stated that hydrogen bomb statement they claim.

ETA: They also suggest mini-nukes being used on other incidents around the world.

[Anti-sophist]

I just checked their web site. This Doug Plumb character is a EE, so he has virtually no credentials to evaluate WTC collapse theories.

Damm! That rules me out!

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I just checked their web site. This Doug Plumb character is a EE, so he has virtually no credentials to evaluate WTC collapse theories.
I would argue that it merely limits his ability to make valid appeals to authority in his statements when using his background as the authority to which he is appealing.

[SpitfireIX]

Damm! That rules me out!


Again, note that I said he lacks the credentials. I didn't say that that implies that he lacks the skills. It does mean that the burden of proof is on him (and you, and me for that matter, as I'm only a sophomore in mechanical engineering, with a two-year degree in mechanical design as of next month), to demonstrate his (our) competence by other means.

[Lurker]

I spent most of my brief time at their forum debating with Doug Plumb.

He's clueless.

The fact that he thinks Judy Wood has a PhD in Structural Engineering says it all. I mean, that should be easy to verify for him by just going to her website. So why hasn't he?

Lurker

[slyjoe]

Damm! That rules me out!

Slacker - you're not trying hard enough.:)

I'll bet us stoopid EEs could discuss their EMP claims. But why bother?

[beachnut]

I just checked their web site. This Doug Plumb character is a EE, so he has virtually no credentials to evaluate WTC collapse theories.
What school did he go to. He went woo woo in that email exchange right off the bat. Those guys are nuts to the core. Extra nutty. That was a great exchange exposing pure idiots are running AEFT.

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2678343&postcount=1 Refering to the first post.
NUTSDr. Bill Deagle thinks it was a mini nuke. The conventional explanation does not explain what Judy Woods has uncovered. She gives a talk with photos on her site Google "jane Doe Judy Wood". She is a Phd Structural Engineer and has other related degrees in material science. No one is more qualified than Judy Wood.

Oh, Judy Woods said it. Proof, extra nutty, with nuts on the side. That guy thinks these may be viable?


No one is more qulified than Judy Wood.

What? For what? To be committed by their family?

[Par]

There were pools of molten metal observed at the site after the collapses. Jet fuel will not do this.


No? What if it was mercury?

Anyway, this is something I’ve seen a few times from the “truthers”. It’s the fallacy of four terms (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/fourterm.html):


Whatever brought down the World Trade Center produced molten metal.
But jet fuel and/or office fires cannot produce molten steel.
Therefore jet fuel and/or office fires didn’t bring down the World Trade Center.


There’s another one in Loose Change as I remember. It goes something like this:

The official explanation is that the fires softened or melted the steel.
But those fire couldn’t have bruned hot enough to melt the steel.
Therefore, if the steel did soften or melt, it wasn’t due to the fires.

[Sparky]

Peter,

There were pools of molten metal observed at the site after the collapses. Jet fuel will not do this.

That's ridiculous. We had an aluminum ladder rack melt off of one our trucks during a BRUSH FIRE. I still have a section of the cooled puddle of "molten metal" here at my shop as a souvenir.

[DGM]

Peter,

There were pools of molten metal observed at the site after the collapses. Jet fuel will not do this.

He's got a point! As long as you don't light it.:D

[peteweaver]

Peter,

There were pools of molten metal observed at the site after the collapses. Jet fuel will not do this.

That's ridiculous. We had an aluminum ladder rack melt off of one our trucks during a BRUSH FIRE. I still have a section of the cooled puddle of "molten metal" here at my shop as a souvenir.

I can well believe it. Shame a ct will think of it as disinfo.

[PhantomWolf]

Oh I always love the Truthers going with Nukes. It's the perfect time to bring up a guy named Jay Jonas.....

[PhantomWolf]

I can well believe it. Shame a ct will think of it as disinfo.

yeah it's not like Aluminium can really be melted by a simple fire.....

http://www.alfed.org.uk/files/ALFEDX0001/3.gif

[peteweaver]

Amusingly even Judy Wood, points out that Aluminium can glow when hot.

http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/glowing.html

If only she had the sense to realise that the fires in the buildings were hot enough to do that to aluminium, and that the mini nuke / space beams theory is cow dung.

[AZCat]

I just noticed Christopher Brown (a.k.a. Christophera) has joined AE9/11Truth.



They have no idea what they're in for.

[Kent1]

I just noticed Christopher Brown (a.k.a. Christophera) has joined AE9/11Truth.



They have no idea what they're in for.

AE has a new video I guess that is supposed to be refuting the top down collapse.

http://www.ae911truth.org/flashmov2.htm
Turther post here.
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=12383&st=4425

Note the collapse. Note the fragmentation of the upper block breaking into two pieces.

Aside from the other problems with this, note the full story and preperation

http://www.phillyblast.com/benthere.htm
http://www.phillyblast.com/prepare.htm
http://www.phillyblast.com/testshot.htm

To work around the problem, only the top half of the building will be demolished in the blast. A vertical cut in the building will separate the top into 2 smaller halves, with one falling to one side, one to the other side. The bottom half will remain standing, and will be wrecking balled, or imploded at a later date.

This shot of the north side of the building (the side visible from I-95), gives a good indication of how the top half of the building will fall apart. Look at the middle column on the open wall. Just above and to the right of this column is a vertical cut made all the way to the top of the building. There may not be enough clarity in the scanned photo to show it, but this cut runs all the way to the top of the building, getting narrower towards the top. This is the line which will divide the top half of the structure into 2 smaller halves. One will fall to one side, one to the other side. The south side of the building has a similar cut.

On the left side of this photo is the row of columns that will be shot during the implosion. 3 holes will be drilled into each column and loaded with explosives. The set of columns on the right side with not be shot, allowing it to act as a hinge wall. This will allow the blaster to control the direction of the fall of the floors above.

[beachnut]

I just noticed Christopher Brown (a.k.a. Christophera) has joined AE9/11Truth.



They have no idea what they're in for.

Paul Doherty *
Manchester, Lancashire – England

More experts. This is the level of expert they have. Standard issue truthers.

Christopher A. Brown, Engineering staff, Survey Party Chief *
Santa Barbara, california

Did Chris hold the stick? I built horse jumps one summer, what fancy name would that have?

[scissorhands]

Massimo Dell'Affidabilità, Ing., Engineer, Structural Specialist *
Milano, Lombardia – Italy

Do they think thats a real name?
It translates as "maximum reliability".
Anyone with knowledge of Italian can correct me if Im wrong.

[Horatius]

Did Chris hold the stick? I built horse jumps one summer, what fancy name would that have?



Equine Elevation Challenge Engineer (uncertified).


You're welcome.

[Doug Plumb]

Lets be clear about why I will not debate any of you debunkers:

You lie. You misrepresent your qualifications. You support the officials lies and ignore obvious fact, but most of all YOU LIE all the time. Peter Weaver you lied and said you were a degreed engineer. You lose right there.

I have spent many hours argueing 9/11 on sites like this. The science that gets introduced is always incorrect, sometimes laughable.

But you don't need to be an architect or structural engineer to know that 9/11 was an inside job. All you have to do is READ THE FEMA REPORT !!!

Its right there in black and white:

(1) Sulfidization of steel that could not be explained

(2) The supports that would have to fail could not have

(3) They admit that their theories had only a very "low probability of occurance"

Also, its been shown that wtc'97 was an inside job with leaked tapes. Its a matter of congressional testimony that the bombs described in the official version of the OKC bombing could not have done the damage. Mainstream reported bombs inside the building after the blasts. Lee Harvey Oswald did not shoot JFK.

I have no interest in anything but honest debate and its impossible to debate 9/11 theories with dupporters of the official version. Even PM, Nova, BBC & NIST misrepresented the construction of the buildings wrt strength & size of central core.

As far as the architect that said he would debate anyone, anytime on 9/11 conspiracy theories, I don't believe him. I've debated too many structural engineers and watched my fellow truthers with no scientific background make mincemeat out of their arguements using facts from the incident.

Go head...debunk away.

[Doug Plumb]

No one stays on the AE911truth as an eng or architect unless we see their diploma so if you see an "IP Nightly" listed its only temporary.

You guys can stop using fake names because they don't get up there.

BTW There can be a $10,000.00 fine for representing yourself as an engineer.

[Doug Plumb]

Just the title of your thread "Debunking Conspiracy Theories" shows your level of mental capability - it implies that there are no such thing as conspiracies. Of course conspiracies exist - even evil conspiracies.

[kookbreaker]

No one stays on the AE911truth as an eng or architect unless we see their diploma so if you see an "IP Nightly" listed its only temporary.


Any website or other org. that posts the names of anyone who just types stuff in without even the most basic of background checks is being dishonest and trying to swell their ranks.


You guys can stop using fake names because they don't get up there.


But they do. That's what makes your whole group such a bad joke. Sure, you get to removing them eventually, but you look damn silly and dishonest in the meantime.


BTW There can be a $10,000.00 fine for representing yourself as an engineer.

Not to a group such as yours. Not a chance in hell.

[uk_dave]

Got bored over at A&E? No one to talk to?

[kookbreaker]

Just the title of your thread "Debunking Conspiracy Theories" shows your level of mental capability - it implies that there are no such thing as conspiracies. Of course conspiracies exist - even evil conspiracies.

Its always funny how people's own pedantry can set them off on a tirade of insults.

Conspiracies exist, certainly. What we debunk are conspiracy theories, which is the nonsense that is to conspiracies what pseudo-science is to science.

[kookbreaker]

:

(1) Sulfidization of steel that could not be explained


Its been explained, many times already. Wasn't that muh to get excited about to begin with.


(2) The supports that would have to fail could not have


According to....? Not FEMA.


(3) They admit that their theories had only a very "low probability of occurance"


They admit that about one theory, and 'low probability' is infinitely higher than the nonsense ideas y'all come up with.

[~enigma~]

Lets be clear about why I will not debate any of you debunkers:

You lie....Also, its been shown that wtc'97 was an inside job with leaked tapes.
Says the guy who claims whatever happened at the wtc in 97 was an inside job and there is proof on tape....

[Gravy]

Actually, Doug, you won't debate us because you're an intellectual coward and an incompetent who has no idea what he's talking about.

Yeah, you.

And while you're admonishing us to read the FEMA report, you really should read the NIST report, which is the official version of the tower collapses. You'll find it here (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/nist%2Cfemareports%2C911structuralengineerin).

[Totovader]

No one stays on the AE911truth as an eng or architect unless we see their diploma so if you see an "IP Nightly" listed its only temporary.

You guys can stop using fake names because they don't get up there.

BTW There can be a $10,000.00 fine for representing yourself as an engineer.

Nonsense.

Thankfully- for your lot- the fine doesn't apply to people pretending to be experts. The fine would apply to people who fake credentials to obtain a job.

There is no crime for saying you're an engineer, architect, or anything else (besides police officer). So don't try and hide behind some silly misinterpretation of the law and think it indemnifies you. Failing to check the credentials of people who want to "join your cause" is far more despicable than people pointing out a significant flaw in the requirements for the group.

[Totovader]

Just the title of your thread "Debunking Conspiracy Theories" shows your level of mental capability - it implies that there are no such thing as conspiracies. Of course conspiracies exist - even evil conspiracies.

Like many conspiracists, you fail to understand the difference between "conspiracy theory" and "conspiracy".

A dictionary should clear that up for you.

[Gravy]

Says the guy who claims whatever happened at the wtc in 97 was an inside job and there is proof on tape....With typical twoofer accuracy he's referring to the 1993 bombing, not 1997, and no, there is no proof of anything but an attack by Islamic radicals.

[scissorhands]

No one stays on the AE911truth as an eng or architect unless we see their diploma so if you see an "IP Nightly" listed its only temporary.

You guys can stop using fake names because they don't get up there.

BTW There can be a $10,000.00 fine for representing yourself as an engineer.

Your site is a scam Doug, a scam site run by scammers, dont get all uppity now its been pointed out to you.
Richard Gage is well aware its a scam, why arent you?

[Corsair 115]

With typical twoofer accuracy he's referring to the 1993 bombing, not 1997, and no, there is no proof of anything but an attack by Islamic radicals.It's especially curious since the 7 is nowhere near the 3 on a keyboard, either along the top or on the number pad - this makes a typing mistake unlikely.

[Gravy]

Just the title of your thread "Debunking Conspiracy Theories" shows your level of mental capability - it implies that there are no such thing as conspiracies. Of course conspiracies exist - even evil conspiracies.This is a forum for discussing conspiracy theories. Where can I find this thread titled "Debunking Conspiracy Theories," or is that another figment of your imagination?

And if there were a thread titled "Debunking Conspiracy Theories," how would that indicate a denial of actual conspiracies?

Here are some links (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/thebasic%3Acriticalthinking%2Clogic%2Cscientif) that will help you learn about logic and critical thinking.

[~enigma~]

With typical twoofer accuracy he's referring to the 1993 bombing, not 1997, and no, there is no proof of anything but an attack by Islamic radicals.Yes but being called a liar by a guy who can't even get his dates straight is kind of odd :)

[DGM]

With typical twoofer accuracy he's referring to the 1993 bombing, not 1997, and no, there is no proof of anything but an attack by Islamic radicals.
He's probably referring to the '97 test run of the hush bombs. The tape will be on their DVD for $9.95

[JimBenArm]

Lets be clear about why I will not debate any of you debunkers:
Because you're an intellectual coward, I'm guessing.
You lie. You misrepresent your qualifications. You support the officials lies and ignore obvious fact, but most of all YOU LIE all the time.
Really? Point out one time I lied here. Waiting...

Peter Weaver you lied and said you were a degreed engineer. You lose right there.
Don't know or care who this is. What does this have to do with anything.

I have spent many hours argueing 9/11 on sites like this. The science that gets introduced is always incorrect, sometimes laughable.
Really? Such as...?

But you don't need to be an architect or structural engineer to know that 9/11 was an inside job. All you have to do is READ THE FEMA REPORT !!!
Which you haven't, or didn't understand.

Its right there in black and white:


(1) Sulfidization of steel that could not be explained

(2) The supports that would have to fail could not have

(3) They admit that their theories had only a very "low probability of occurance"

So, where is your science-based alternative? Oh, right, haven't got one, because science is laughable...

Also, its been shown that wtc'97 was an inside job with leaked tapes.
Leaky tapes were the culprit? And strange how I didn't hear about a bombing in '97...

Its a matter of congressional testimony that the bombs described in the official version of the OKC bombing could not have done the damage. Mainstream reported bombs inside the building after the blasts. Lee Harvey Oswald did not shoot JFK.
All of which are stupid, and have nada to do with 9/11. Guess all someone has to do is say "Conspiracy!" and you believe it.

I have no interest in anything but honest debate and its impossible to debate 9/11 theories with dupporters of the official version. Even PM, Nova, BBC & NIST misrepresented the construction of the buildings wrt strength & size of central core.
Let me guess. You believe there was a concrete core, a la ChristopherA.
Hoo boy, here we go again...

As far as the architect that said he would debate anyone, anytime on 9/11 conspiracy theories, I don't believe him. I've debated too many structural engineers and watched my fellow truthers with no scientific background make mincemeat out of their arguements using facts from the incident.
Uh huh, sure you have. In other words, you're too afraid to be shown up by someone with actual, relevent knowledge and training. Sorry, but if you're not going to have the stones to back up what you say, don't waste our time, coward.


Go head...debunk away.


Done.

And by one of the third-stringers here, no less!

Man, it sucks to be you!

[DGM]

I have spent many hours argueing 9/11 on sites like this. The science that gets introduced is always incorrect, sometimes laughable.


I've debated too many structural engineers and watched my fellow truthers with no scientific background make mincemeat out of their arguements using facts from the incident.


If you won't debate us, could you at least give us the links to these debates so we could see your brilliance in action?

That's not asking too much is it?

[R.Mackey]

No one stays on the AE911truth as an eng or architect unless we see their diploma so if you see an "IP Nightly" listed its only temporary.

"IP Nightly?" :p

You guys are something else.

[PhantomWolf]

http://www.phillyblast.com/benthere.htm

This isn't relabile. Note that it was done with the help of the disinformationist Brent Blanchard.

[PhantomWolf]

But you don't need to be an architect or structural engineer to know that 9/11 was an inside job. All you have to do is READ THE FEMA REPORT !!!

So 2003... How about you get yourself up to date and read the NIST report, Hmmmm?

(1) Sulfidization of steel that could not be explained

Oh I am sure that Dr Frank Greening (Apollo 20) can help you with that one. Have you read his paper on the sulphidisation of steel by gypsum in a carbon monoxide rich atmosphere? No I thought not.

(2) The supports that would have to fail could not have

You mean the supports that were bowing inwards and shown to be doing so by the police helicopter images?

(3) They admit that their theories had only a very "low probability of occurance"

And you, still being stuck in 2003, haven't noticed that FEMA's short investigation got a few things wrong that NIST has since worked on? Thought not.[/QUOTE]

[beachnut]

No one stays on the AE911truth as an eng or architect unless we see their diploma so if you see an "IP Nightly" listed its only temporary.

You guys can stop using fake names because they don't get up there.

BTW There can be a $10,000.00 fine for representing yourself as an engineer.
Wrong there are some that are not, and some that are not even around. Amazing what you can do with a computer and stuff. I would say half are fake. What do you think? I can not believe there are any who believe the recycled junk that the site stands for.

10,000 dollars, really? Show me.

AE911truth is a bunch of people who can not think for themselves on 9/11. AEFT is a joke. Shows how dumb even so called professionals can be. Proof someone missed some critical classes on thinking and research.

10,000 dollars? You are one funny guy.

[beachnut]

Lets be clear about why I will not debate any of you debunkers:You have no support, evidence or facts to support your ideas. Clear! I could tell that when I saw AE911truth lies and more lies. I know why you cannot debate, and you know it is lack of facts. You can not even list the facts to support any of you 9/11 ideas. Nice try.

You lie. You misrepresent your qualifications. You support the officials lies and ignore obvious fact, but most of all YOU LIE all the time. Peter Weaver you lied and said you were a degreed engineer. You lose right there.Show me an official lie about 9/11. Please, so far not one has come up. What are the big official lies that make you fantasy true? If Peter Weaver said he was an engineer and is not, at least he is smarter than all the engineers you have at AE911truth place. All of you engineers seem to have problems with logical and rational thought, pertaining to 9/11.

I have spent many hours argueing 9/11 on sites like this. The science that gets introduced is always incorrect, sometimes laughable.I agree you have zero facts and mess up physics. You have joined the idiots from the 9/11 truth movement, relax, you have zero capability to think for yourself or gather facts on 9/11. You have drank the KoolAid, just enjoy being with the poor researchers.


But you don't need to be an architect or structural engineer to know that 9/11 was an inside job. All you have to do is READ THE FEMA REPORT !!!
I do not have to read the FEMA report to figure out 9/11 and NO, you do not have to be an architect or an engineer to figure out 9/11, and it seems you guys are all messed up and lost out on something about 9/11. You guys are not too good. I would say a fifth grader could figure out 9/11, and you guys messed up everything 9/11.

Its right there in black and white:

(1) Sulfidization of steel that could not be explained

(2) The supports that would have to fail could not have

(3) They admit that their theories had only a very "low probability of occurance" There is no sulfur in the WTC. Wow. You forgot tons of sulfur in the wallboard. Tons. Who said the supports could not fail? Oh you are talking about WTC7. No bombs here, I bet you are a OKC CTer too. Wrong once, wrong twice. Wrong all around.

Also, its been shown that wtc'97 was an inside job with leaked tapes. Its a matter of congressional testimony that the bombs described in the official version of the OKC bombing could not have done the damage. Mainstream reported bombs inside the building after the blasts. Lee Harvey Oswald did not shoot JFK. So you be just one big CT guy with zero facts. Good to know you are just plan old CTEr from way back.

I have no interest in anything but honest debate and its impossible to debate 9/11 theories with dupporters of the official version. Even PM, Nova, BBC & NIST misrepresented the construction of the buildings wrt strength & size of central core.You have no facts. So I know you are bogus. Zip, the big zero.

As far as the architect that said he would debate anyone, anytime on 9/11 conspiracy theories, I don't believe him. I've debated too many structural engineers and watched my fellow truthers with no scientific background make mincemeat out of their arguements using facts from the incident. Proof, source. I doubt it.


Go head...debunk away.You have no facts or evidence to debunk, do you?

[Doug Plumb]

"Wouldn't an EE realize the utter improbability of WIRING up the two WTC towers for a controlled demolition without detection?"

For all the schools I have attended and places I have worked at I do not recall anyone ever approaching maintainance workers and asking them exactly what they were doing and demanding verification of what they were doing or asking for identification.

This would be the easiest thing to do. Hiding is best done in plain sight.

[Doug Plumb]

As far as what happened on 9/11, we may never know. I know that there is a professional society for Directed Energy Weapons developers and I know that nukes have been developed exclusively for building demolitiuon because I have seen the US gov docs to this affect.

The evidence has been destroyed, it may be that no one will ever know exactly what did happen but that does not prevent us from knowing what did not happen and who has been lying about it and who has benefitted from all of the wars and the police state.

"MIC" stands for Military Industrial Complex. Many of you would do well to learn more about MIC and what it means for our economy.

[ref]

"Wouldn't an EE realize the utter improbability of WIRING up the two WTC towers for a controlled demolition without detection?"

For all the schools I have attended and places I have worked at I do not recall anyone ever approaching maintainance workers and asking them exactly what they were doing and demanding verification of what they were doing or asking for identification.

This would be the easiest thing to do. Hiding is best done in plain sight.

You support the mini-nuke theory? What evidence has lead you to this belief?

ETA: What kind of documents are you talking about, that you mentioned seeing?

[Brainache]

As far as what happened on 9/11, we may never know. I know that there is a professional society for Directed Energy Weapons developers and I know that nukes have been developed exclusively for building demolitiuon because I have seen the US gov docs to this affect.

The evidence has been destroyed, it may be that no one will ever know exactly what did happen but that does not prevent us from knowing what did not happen and who has been lying about it and who has benefitted from all of the wars and the police state.

"MIC" stands for Military Industrial Complex. Many of you would do well to learn more about MIC and what it means for our economy.

Dear Mr Plumb,
I believe you are about to discover that many people here at JREF know quite a lot about these subjects. I hope people can keep the ensuing discussion polite, because I believe if you take the time to read and comprehend the things that people will say here, you may find it to be a rewarding educational experience.

But in the meantime, did you say nukes?

Cheers
Brainache.

[pomeroo]

As far as what happened on 9/11, we may never know. I know that there is a professional society for Directed Energy Weapons developers and I know that nukes have been developed exclusively for building demolitiuon because I have seen the US gov docs to this affect.

The evidence has been destroyed, it may be that no one will ever know exactly what did happen but that does not prevent us from knowing what did not happen and who has been lying about it and who has benefitted from all of the wars and the police state.

"MIC" stands for Military Industrial Complex. Many of you would do well to learn more about MIC and what it means for our economy.



Wow, you're dumb!

[Doug Plumb]

"Show me an official lie about 9/11. Please, so far not one has come up."

Many of the supposed hijackers that crashed the planes into the towers have shown up alive. This has been reported by multiple mainstream sources. I'm not going to give you a link because if you were interested in truth you would know this.

Or, how about the towers collapsing from fire when its obvious from the video that towers 1 & 2 were blown up & wtc7 was a perfectly executed conventional controlled demolition (textbook example). You can see pieces being ejected outward and upward during towers 1 & 2 collapse. Fire doesn't do that.

How about the gov saying that no one ever considered someone flying planes into the wtc's when their own internal docs, publiucations and memos prove otherwise. Plus it WAS ON TV - The Lone Gunman.

So theres a few lies just off the top of my head.

The FBI tapes of the wtc '93 bombing prove FBI involvement in both planning and execution of that bombing - again on mainstream but before the big corporate conglomeration of the media that was necessary to bring the USA and the world under fascists dictatorship control.

Maybe we will meet up at one of the detention centers that have been built (also on mainstream).

Perhaps you will wake up when the cops start grabbing the cute kids off the street and using them for the international sex slave trade - corporate profits for Haliburton & Bechtel. (also on mainstream)

Maybe you should just stick your head back in the sand.

[ref]

Doug, too much Alex Jones is bad for your health. Seriously.

[Brainache]

"Show me an official lie about 9/11. Please, so far not one has come up."

Many of the supposed hijackers that crashed the planes into the towers have shown up alive. This has been reported by multiple mainstream sources. I'm not going to give you a link because if you were interested in truth you would know this.

Or, how about the towers collapsing from fire when its obvious from the video that towers 1 & 2 were blown up & wtc7 was a perfectly executed conventional controlled demolition (textbook example). You can see pieces being ejected outward and upward during towers 1 & 2 collapse. Fire doesn't do that.

How about the gov saying that no one ever considered someone flying planes into the wtc's when their own internal docs, publiucations and memos prove otherwise. Plus it WAS ON TV - The Lone Gunman.

So theres a few lies just off the top of my head.

The FBI tapes of the wtc '93 bombing prove FBI involvement in both planning and execution of that bombing - again on mainstream but before the big corporate conglomeration of the media that was necessary to bring the USA and the world under fascists dictatorship control.

Maybe we will meet up at one of the detention centers that have been built (also on mainstream).

Perhaps you will wake up when the cops start grabbing the cute kids off the street and using them for the international sex slave trade - corporate profits for Haliburton & Bechtel. (also on mainstream)

Maybe you should just stick your head back in the sand.

Well that went well. Sorry Doug you are not actually referring to reality are you?

I think we need a Plug for all the Dumb that keeps pouring into this forum.

[beachnut]

"Show me an official lie about 9/11. Please, so far not one has come up." learn to use the quote function.


Many of the supposed hijackers that crashed the planes into the towers have shown up alive. This has been reported by multiple mainstream sources. I'm not going to give you a link because if you were interested in truth you would know this.
Debunked, this is so old, where have you been hiding. Sorry, this is false and now makes you a liar.


Or, how about the towers collapsing from fire when its obvious from the video that towers 1 & 2 were blown up & wtc7 was a perfectly executed conventional controlled demolition (textbook example). You can see pieces being ejected outward and upward during towers 1 & 2 collapse. Fire doesn't do that.
No sounds of RDX, sorry, no CD. Next. Also zero blast effects. How did those guys survive in the core with all your fantasy explosives going off? Darn, another lie.


How about the gov saying that no one ever considered someone flying planes into the wtc's when their own internal docs, publiucations and memos prove otherwise. Plus it WAS ON TV - The Lone Gunman.
I read it in a book well before 9/11, but I never thought anyone would do it for real. Did you? Your point?


So theres a few lies just off the top of my head.
Yes, and they all are by you. You tell lies.

The FBI tapes of the wtc '93 bombing prove FBI involvement in both planning and execution of that bombing - again on mainstream but before the big corporate conglomeration of the media that was necessary to bring the USA and the world under fascists dictatorship control.
What? You are sounding nuts now.

Maybe we will meet up at one of the detention centers that have been built (also on mainstream).
Only truthers will be in the centers, I am running the one east of Jesus. Sorry buddy.

Perhaps you will wake up when the cops start grabbing the cute kids off the street and using them for the international sex slave trade - corporate profits for Haliburton & Bechtel. (also on mainstream)
OMG, you are nuts!
Maybe you should just stick your head back in the sand.You need to stop eating sand. You are one really messed up kid, seek mental health help as soon as possible.

They let you join AE911truth?

[Doug Plumb]

I have argued in threads like this enough to know that all the links will not matter.

There are US gov docs describing nuclear devices developed exclusively for the purpose of building demolition. I don't care if you believe it or not because if you don't you haven't done the research. You can find them easily enough.

I do not know what happened. I do not speculate because I am not a conspiracy theorist. I work only from fact.

Alex Jones is not a conspiracy theorist either. He also works from fact. Some people think he aggagerates the interpretation of fact but this does not mean he is a conspiracy theorist.

I listen to lots of conspiracy theorists on the web and I do respect their viewpoints but unfortunately for you, Alex Jones isn't one of them.

This is one way of showing how out of touch with logic & reality the "debunker movement" or what I call the "bowel movement" actually is.

Jones only points out evidence that proves the official version is a lie and some of the more obvious facts about 9/11. For 9/11 info I go to Jim Hoffman or Judy Wood as the best sources. I'm not yet convinced of Stephen Jones reliability but I haven't a lot of work into investigating Jones so thats probably an unfair characterization. I also like Bill Deagles work.

Most of these hypothesis are going to be wrong - of course only one can be right but that is the nature of scientific inquiry.

[uk_dave]

Many of the supposed hijackers that crashed the planes into the towers have shown up alive. This has been reported by multiple mainstream sources. I'm not going to give you a link because if you were interested in truth you would know this.

awwwww, c'mon Doug. The 'truth' movement has had 6 years in which to present these people. Where are they? Just think of the wars you could have prevented had you found them.

Don't think you 'truthers' are trying hard enough.


Or, how about the towers collapsing from fire when its obvious from the video that towers 1 & 2 were blown up & wtc7 was a perfectly executed conventional controlled demolition (textbook example). You can see pieces being ejected outward and upward during towers 1 & 2 collapse. Fire doesn't do that.Yeah how about that? Ever sen a 110 storey building brought down with an unconventional top down demolition process prior to 9/11?
No?
Didn't think so.

Obvious huh? :cool:


How about the gov saying that no one ever considered someone flying planes into the wtc's when their own internal docs, publiucations and memos prove otherwise. Plus it WAS ON TV - The Lone Gunman.
It was on a TV show? Crikey, case solved.


Perhaps you will wake up when the cops start grabbing the cute kids off the street and using them for the international sex slave trade - corporate profits for Haliburton & Bechtel. (also on mainstream)Ahem.
What other fantasies do you have, Doug? That one is getting a bit...suspect. :boggled:

Maybe we should advise the police that you fantasize about them kidnapping children for the sex slave trade. Cute ones, at that. The ugly ones are probably dispensable in Plumbland.

[ref]

I have argued in threads like this enough to know that all the links will not matter.

There are US gov docs describing nuclear devices developed exclusively for the purpose of building demolition. I don't care if you believe it or not because if you don't you haven't done the research. You can find them easily enough.

I do not know what happened. I do not speculate because I am not a conspiracy theorist. I work only from fact.

Alex Jones is not a conspiracy theorist either. He also works from fact. Some people think he aggagerates the interpretation of fact but this does not mean he is a conspiracy theorist.

I listen to lots of conspiracy theorists on the web and I do respect their viewpoints but unfortunately for you, Alex Jones isn't one of them.

This is one way of showing how out of touch with logic & reality the "debunker movement" or what I call the "bowel movement" actually is.

Jones only points out evidence that proves the official version is a lie and some of the more obvious facts about 9/11. For 9/11 info I go to Jim Hoffman or Judy Wood as the best sources. I'm not yet convinced of Stephen Jones reliability but I haven't a lot of work into investigating Jones so thats probably an unfair characterization. I also like Bill Deagles work.

Most of these hypothesis are going to be wrong - of course only one can be right but that is the nature of scientific inquiry.


Alex Jones is not a conspiracy theorist?

Alex Jones (33) (radio host, fired from KJFK-FM in 1999 because of his views) - The father figure. Source to numerous conspiracy claims. Has implied the FDNY were complicit of murder. Says the 7/7/05 London bombings were orchestrated by British intelligence. Says global warming is a hoax. Says AIDS was orchestrated by the high powers of the world. Says the Oklahoma bombing was orchestrated by the FBI. Says the 1993 WTC bombing was orchestrated by the FBI. Says there is a New World Order, an Illuminati, an evil entity of powerful people that control and dominate the entire world. Says the NWO/Illuminati leave signs and give clues of their work, but are so arrogant they just don't care if someone (Alex Jones) notices. Says there is a plan to get rid of most of the population of the world. Claims all the terrorists are patsies. Has speculated the Virginia Tech shootings being a government black-op, Hurricane Katrina being weather manipulation and the 2004 Tsunami possibly caused by a deliberate under sea detonation. Believes in Chemtrails, JFK assassination being a government operation and US Government foreknowledge and allowance of Pearl Harbor. Claims that Communism was a plot by international banks in the early 1900s to oppress the Russian serfs.


Or Jim Hoffman?

Jim Hoffman (software engineer) - Strong supporter of the controlled demolition theory. Claims the entire 9/11 attack was an inside job not involving Al Qaida at all, because only US officials had access to the underlying infrastructure of the buildings and possibility to plant explosives. Claims Mr. Zdenek P. Bazant is ignorant of structural engineering (In reality he is one of world's leading structural engineers. Bazant's resume is here (http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/resume.pdf), Hoffman's bio here (http://911research.wtc7.net/re911/hoffman.html)). Claims the planes were remotely controlled, because "It would not be rational for the planners of such an attack to entrust a key component of the operation - the piloting of the jetliners - to any human pilot". Claims NORAD was ordered to stand down. Suggests the attacks might have been carried out by as few as twelve individuals. Claims huge sums of money could have bought people's co-operation, keeping them silent. Claims the attacks were so bold and shocking, that even people who were involved in covering it up (like leaders in the media, FEMA, FBI, etc.) would fall for the fraud. Continues to cite the work of Eric Hufschmid and Christopher Bollyn, despite the fact that they are holocaust deniers or racist, because the selected works he cites do not betray them as holocaust deniers or racist.


Or Judy Wood? You and her share the belief in some exotic weapons.

[e^n]

I have no interest in anything but honest debate and its impossible to debate 9/11 theories with dupporters of the official version. Even PM, Nova, BBC & NIST misrepresented the construction of the buildings wrt strength & size of central core.

Doug, this is why people disrespect conspiracy theorists. NIST did not misrepresent core column size. This claim is only brought up because NIST and FEMA released diagrams showing very small core columns and 'truthers' argued from incredulity it was false. They continued to supplement this claim when blueprints were released by comparing the images NIST and FEMA provided with a 66th floor plan (not 78th or above). Here is a comparison I drew up between scaled versions of NISTs diagram and the actual architectural blueprints. As you can see they are extremely close despite my poor matching.

http://content.imagesocket.com/thumbs/89_93_Core_NIST_Overlayd27.jpeg (http://imagesocket.com/view/89_93_Core_NIST_Overlayd27.jpeg)

Here is what NIST has to say about core columns:
Core Columns
As stated above, the core columns were designed to support approximately 50 percent of the gravity loads. The core columns were of two types: welded box columns and rolled wide flange shapes (Fig. 2–11). The columns in the lower floors were primarily very large box columns, as large as 12 in. by 52 in., comprised of welded plates up to 7 in. thick. In the upper floors, the columns shifted to the rolled wide-flange shapes. The transition floors are indicated in Fig. 2–12 for each of the core columns. Core columns were typically spliced at three-story intervals. Diagonal bracing was used at the mechanical floors and in the area of the hat truss. Steel used for core box columns was either 36 ksi or 42 ksi. Core wide flange columns were specified to be one of four grades, but were primarily 36 ksi and 42 ksi steel; only about 1 percent of all the core columns were made of 45 ksi or 50 ksi steel.

Clearly NIST did not misrepresent column size in this report, so as an honest researcher I have to ask you where you got these facts, why you have not even read NCSTAR 1-1 and whether you will admit to being wrong.

[Brainache]

Please, someone make it stop! A dumb plug for Doug Plumb!!

[scissorhands]

Doug, where is your organ grinder?
Richard doesnt seem very keen on debating any of this.
His video presentations look slick and nicely manufactured, but hes clever enough to know its built on the sand of woo, prod it even slightly and it will collapse.

[beachnut]

I have argued in threads like this enough to know that all the links will not matter.So far I would say you have failed to make a point.


There are US gov docs describing nuclear devices developed exclusively for the purpose of building demolition. I don't care if you believe it or not because if you don't you haven't done the research. You can find them easily enough.
So now a nuke did it. You need to study nukes, they make a big explosion. Even the tiny ones. Your nuke idea is stillborn.

I do not know what happened. I do not speculate because I am not a conspiracy theorist. I work only from fact.
So far I have seen zero facts from you, just lies from 9/11 truth.

Alex Jones is not a conspiracy theorist either. He also works from fact. Some people think he aggagerates the interpretation of fact but this does not mean he is a conspiracy theorist.
Alex Jones is nuts, by supporting him you prove you have zero facts. Go ahead present one fact from Alex Jones or Thermite Jones.
I listen to lots of conspiracy theorists on the web and I do respect their viewpoints but unfortunately for you, Alex Jones isn't one of them. So?

This is one way of showing how out of touch with logic & reality the "debunker movement" or what I call the "bowel movement" actually is.And? When will you ever find a fact?


Jones only points out evidence that proves the official version is a lie and some of the more obvious facts about 9/11. For 9/11 info I go to Jim Hoffman or Judy Wood as the best sources. I'm not yet convinced of Stephen Jones reliability but I haven't a lot of work into investigating Jones so thats probably an unfair characterization. I also like Bill Deagles work.
Judy Wood, beam weapon, nut case. Next. So far you are getting to the more nut type 9/11 truth people. You have perfect record going, no facts no evidence to support 9/11 truth ideas.

Most of these hypothesis are going to be wrong - of course only one can be right but that is the nature of scientific inquiry.But you have zero correct hypothesis. Good work. http://www.ae911truth.org/joinus.php This is the correct place for you, they have no facts either. You are a classic really challenged person.

[ref]

Please, someone make it stop! A dumb plug for Doug Plumb!!

This is good material for the Truthers Exposed thread :D

[beachnut]

Please, someone make it stop! A dumb plug for Doug Plumb!!


I was just looking up stuff, but no, a nuke, a beam weapon, and more, come out all at once to...

[pomeroo]

I have argued in threads like this enough to know that all the links will not matter.

There are US gov docs describing nuclear devices developed exclusively for the purpose of building demolition. I don't care if you believe it or not because if you don't you haven't done the research. You can find them easily enough.

I do not know what happened. I do not speculate because I am not a conspiracy theorist. I work only from fact.

Alex Jones is not a conspiracy theorist either. He also works from fact. Some people think he aggagerates the interpretation of fact but this does not mean he is a conspiracy theorist.

I listen to lots of conspiracy theorists on the web and I do respect their viewpoints but unfortunately for you, Alex Jones isn't one of them.

This is one way of showing how out of touch with logic & reality the "debunker movement" or what I call the "bowel movement" actually is.

Jones only points out evidence that proves the official version is a lie and some of the more obvious facts about 9/11. For 9/11 info I go to Jim Hoffman or Judy Wood as the best sources. I'm not yet convinced of Stephen Jones reliability but I haven't a lot of work into investigating Jones so thats probably an unfair characterization. I also like Bill Deagles work.

Most of these hypothesis are going to be wrong - of course only one can be right but that is the nature of scientific inquiry.



I'm afraid most of us won't swallow the yarn about nukes for demolishing buildings--all that nasty radiation and stuff. You might be able to persuade me that a sledgehammer can be used to fix a hard drive, however. I know I've been tempted to give it a try.

You probably won't like what Steven Jones has to say about the mini-nukes. But, then, his work on Jesus's visits to the Americas is highly creative, and an imagination unfettered by data is what we're looking for in a researcher, right?

http://www.journalof911studies.com/letters/a/Hard-Evidence-Rebudiates-the-Hypothesis-that-Mini-Nukes-were-used-on-the-wtc-towers-by-steven-jones.pdf

[Gravy]

Maybe you should just stick your head back in the sand.Like everything else in your bizarre post, the idea that ostriches try to hide by sticking their heads underground is a myth.

I fervently hope that you stay involved in the "truth" movement, Doug. With people like you leading the way, debunking is simply a matter of pointing.

Say hi to the past for me, and if you see any of my hair there, please bring it back on your next time-travel.

[Gravy]

Clearly NIST did not misrepresent column size in this report, so as an honest researcher I have to ask you where you got these facts, why you have not even read NCSTAR 1-1 and whether you will admit to being wrong.In the interest of accuracy, there is a mistake in that NIST description. It should be 22x52, not 12x52. That's a typo, though, and doesn't figure into their calculations or models.

[e^n]

In the interest of accuracy, there is a mistake in that NIST description. It should be 22x52, not 12x52. That's a typo, though, and doesn't figure into their calculations or models.

How dare you insult the NIST report don't you understand that it's 100% accurate? (in other news, I imagine his source for this is 911research)

[Doug Plumb]

"Has implied the FDNY were complicit of murder. Says the 7/7/05 London bombings were orchestrated by British intelligence. Says global warming is a hoax. Says AIDS was orchestrated by the high powers of the world. Says the Oklahoma bombing was orchestrated by the FBI. Says the 1993 WTC bombing was orchestrated by the FBI. Says there is a New World Order, an Illuminati, an evil entity of powerful people that control and dominate the entire world. Says the NWO/Illuminati leave signs and give clues of their work, but are so arrogant they just don't care if someone (Alex Jones) notices. Says there is a plan to get rid of most of the population of the world. "

All these things have been admitted and/or proven to be true.

As far as the evil entity of people that control the world, THEY have admitted it. They are the ones that print the money. Look up "banker quotes" sometime. The web site for The Money Masters has numerous presidential quotes. The illuminati symbol is on your money.

The best way to learn how the world works is to look up and read "The Report From Iron Mountain". You can learn about global warming and UFO's from that. It wasn't a hoax. It was authenticated by Galbraith.

[bje]

Like everything else in your bizarre post, the idea that ostriches try to hide by sticking their heads underground is a myth.

I fervently hope that you stay involved in the "truth" movement, Doug. With people like you leading the way, debunking is simply a matter of pointing.



Obviously, Doug is a candidate for Steven Jones's new training course (http://tinyurl.com/yqq2lx).

[beachnut]

"Has implied the FDNY were complicit of murder. Says the 7/7/05 London bombings were orchestrated by British intelligence. Says global warming is a hoax. Says AIDS was orchestrated by the high powers of the world. Says the Oklahoma bombing was orchestrated by the FBI. Says the 1993 WTC bombing was orchestrated by the FBI. Says there is a New World Order, an Illuminati, an evil entity of powerful people that control and dominate the entire world. Says the NWO/Illuminati leave signs and give clues of their work, but are so arrogant they just don't care if someone (Alex Jones) notices. Says there is a plan to get rid of most of the population of the world. "

All these things have been admitted and/or proven to be true.

As far as the evil entity of people that control the world, THEY have admitted it. They are the ones that print the money. Look up "banker quotes" sometime. The web site for The Money Masters has numerous presidential quotes. The illuminati symbol is on your money.

The best way to learn how the world works is to look up and read "The Report From Iron Mountain". You can learn about global warming and UFO's from that. It wasn't a hoax. It was authenticated by Galbraith.
You really need some help. You still have not found any facts to support anything you have said.

[Gravy]

I
Alex Jones is not a conspiracy theorist either. He also works from fact. Some people think he aggagerates the interpretation of fact but this does not mean he is a conspiracy theorist.I need to nominate this for a Stundie award now, before I aggagerate.

For 9/11 info I go to Jim Hoffman or Judy Wood as the best sources.Damn, two Stundie nominations in one post. That's quite an achievement, Doug. Keep 'em coming!

[e^n]

All these things have been admitted and/or proven to be true.

No they have not, the very fact you claim the FDNY is responsible for murder is enough to disqualify you as an unbiased researcher.

Please present me with a single motive which would cause any FDNY worker to murder up to 300 of his colleagues? This is essentially what you are claiming happened.

I am frankly astounded by the lack of professionalism you are displaying.

[Doug Plumb]

"Clearly NIST did not misrepresent column size in this report, so as an honest researcher I have to ask you where you got these facts, why you have not even read NCSTAR 1-1 and whether you will admit to being wrong."

"In the interest of accuracy, there is a mistake in that NIST description. It should be 22x52, not 12x52. That's a typo, though, and doesn't figure into their calculations or models."

Funny how these core columns get misrepresented consistently. How about that BBC animation of the collapses - no core even there. The official stories consistently ignored the core or misrepresented its size. Its a pattern of deception.

[Doug Plumb]

"Please present me with a single motive which would cause any FDNY worker to murder up to 300 of his colleagues? This is essentially what you are claiming happened."

When they cover up evidence or imply that there were huge fires and that wtc7 was expected to collapse then that is being an accomplice. Its the same thing as murder.

[beachnut]

"Clearly NIST did not misrepresent column size in this report, so as an honest researcher I have to ask you where you got these facts, why you have not even read NCSTAR 1-1 and whether you will admit to being wrong."

"In the interest of accuracy, there is a mistake in that NIST description. It should be 22x52, not 12x52. That's a typo, though, and doesn't figure into their calculations or models."

Funny how these core columns get misrepresented consistently. How about that BBC animation of the collapses - no core even there. The official stories consistently ignored the core or misrepresented its size. Its a pattern of deception.
You are not paying attention.

[pomeroo]

Obviously, Doug is a candidate for Steven Jones's new training course (http://tinyurl.com/yqq2lx).


I am informed that if you can show evidence of an IQ lower than 100, the high school diploma requirement will be waived.

[pomeroo]

"Please present me with a single motive which would cause any FDNY worker to murder up to 300 of his colleagues? This is essentially what you are claiming happened."

When they cover up evidence or imply that there were huge fires and that wtc7 was expected to collapse then that is being an accomplice. Its the same thing as murder.



Uh, there were huge fires and WTC 7 was expected to collapse.

[sleahead]

All these things have been admitted and/or proven to be true.

That statement is pure Alex Jones. It is also a lie.

[Gravy]

"Please present me with a single motive which would cause any FDNY worker to murder up to 300 of his colleagues? This is essentially what you are claiming happened."

When they cover up evidence or imply that there were huge fires and that wtc7 was expected to collapse then that is being an accomplice. Its the same thing as murder.I'll be quoting this. Is this an official position of Architects and Engineers for Truth?

[e^n]

"Please present me with a single motive which would cause any FDNY worker to murder up to 300 of his colleagues? This is essentially what you are claiming happened."

When they cover up evidence or imply that there were huge fires and that wtc7 was expected to collapse then that is being an accomplice. Its the same thing as murder.

This is astounding, are you honestly claiming to us that the backing off of the rescue effort for several hours was soley so the FDNY can assist the government in demolishing a building without any clear motive whatsoever?

Is this how you represent your organisation, or are these your personal beliefs? Have you ever discussed this with a firefighter and in what hospital did you wake up?

[beachnut]

When they cover up evidence or imply that there were huge fires and that wtc7 was expected to collapse then that is being an accomplice. Its the same thing as murder.
Learn to use the Quote button ----

Architect Richard Gage, AIA

Does AIA know this guy is pushing the lies and misinformation of 9/11 truth? Or is AIA just a junk group who do not care it's members are full of false information on 9/11?

Is everyone at http://www.ae911truth.org/ as challenged on facts on 9/11 as you are?

[DGM]

Learn to use the Quote button ----

Architect Richard Gage, AIA

Does AIA know this guy is pushing the lies and misinformation of 9/11 truth? Or is AIA just a junk group who do not care it's members are full of false information on 9/11?

Is everyone at http://www.ae911truth.org/ as challenged on facts on 9/11 as you are?
I think I'll drop Mr Gage an email and find out.:)

[Foolmewunz]

Did anyone ever determine if they are showing the "leaked" blueprints?
If these were obtained through subterfuge or a whislte-blower as the story was originally told, then does AE911 have any rights to those blue prints?

Wouldn't the AIA frown on Gage purloining several hundred drawings and posting them on his web site?

[Mashuna]

"Please present me with a single motive which would cause any FDNY worker to murder up to 300 of his colleagues? This is essentially what you are claiming happened."

When they cover up evidence or imply that there were huge fires and that wtc7 was expected to collapse then that is being an accomplice. Its the same thing as murder.

Aside from the inanity of your statement, I notice that you didn't manage to provide a motive. Care to have another go?

[Firestone]

...
The best way to learn how the world works is to look up and read "The Report From Iron Mountain". You can learn about global warming and UFO's from that. It wasn't a hoax. It was authenticated by Galbraith.:jaw-dropp

This can't be for real ...

[Doug Plumb]

The above two posts show a greater willingness to discredit those asking questions by any means possible rather than to participate in an inquiry into the truth.

Furthermore, if in fact Osama bin Laden planned and executed these attacks from a cave in Afghanistan then the only thing I am guilty of is being a responsible & inquisitive citizen.

If it turns out that the official version is something that only covers up a great crime then you guys are guilty of that crime as well.

I'm not sure where these folks that constantly voluntarily speak on the governments behalf come from, but surely even the person with a minimum of critical thinking capabilities must recognise that it is the governments job to convince the citizenry of its truthfulness while it is the job of the citizenry to question and to doubt.

Governments are like shepards, they keep their flocks for as long as its profitable to do so. After this point they are lead to the slaughter.

As far as me being a Canadian Citizen, the reality is that we will all soon be citizens of the NAU, with virtually all the rights that humanity has fought for over the past 1000 years removed in secret. If they have their way you will not have the right of representation or the right of habeus corpus when arrested for a crime. This is by definition a dictatorship. The cororations are writing the new laws in secret. This is fascism according to Mousolini who defined fascism as corporatism.

Like Hitler & Stalin this government advocates the use of torture and detention without charge. Unlike Hitler and Stalin they have codified it rather than do it in secret and crushing of a childs testicles in front of a childs parents is legal if the president deems it necessary.

Unlike Hitler or Stalin this new governemnt will allow the buying and selling of child sex slaves. There are White House lobbyists that lobby for the rights of their minions to use the services of a child sex slave without fear of being prosecuted at home. The UN has reported it, mainstream media has reported it. Keep standing up for the government, but keep your kids a safe distance.

You people supporting this rediculous version of 9/11 are either working for the secret police or hopelessly brainwashed after watching episodes of Jack Bouer torturing people. Shame on you either way.

[Gravy]

Furthermore, if in fact Osama bin Laden planned and executed these attacks from a cave in Afghanistan then the only thing I am guilty of is being a responsible & inquisitive citizen.
You mean like the Batcave? No, he had a nice house and didn't have to slide down a pole to get to his car.

[pomeroo]

Is it just me, or do they seem to coming out of the woodwork lately?

[Gravy]

Unlike Hitler and Stalin they have codified it rather than do it in secret and crushing of a childs testicles in front of a childs parents is legal if the president deems it necessary.That actually happened at the 2005 White House Easter Egg Hunt. It was horrible. They should change that law.

[Gravy]

Is it just me, or do they seem to coming out of the woodwork lately?They've left the greasy diner and wandered into the exterminator's office next door, where roaches check in but they don't check out (facts).

[Firestone]

The above two posts show a greater willingness to discredit those asking questions by any means possibly rather than inquiry into the truth.Nope.

I am amazed at your statement that "The Report From Iron Mountain" is not a hoax. The story of this "report" is well-documented, the author known.

Nobody tries to discredit you. What I (and I guess the same goes for others here) object to is the constant repetition of long-debunked nonsense, without any acknowledgment of or reply to counterarguments.

Furthermore, if in fact Osama bin Laden planned and executed these attacks from a cave in Afghanistan then the only thing I am guilty of is being a responsible & inquisitive citizen.Nobody claims that Osama bin Laden planned and executed these attacks from a cave in Afghanistan. The "cave"-thing is a feeble attempt at discrediting the reality you apparently don't like: "Arabs are smart people, they can plan things, they can fly planes, they are not some primitive people in caves".

If it turns out that the official version is something that only covers up a great crime then you guys are guilty of that crime as well.It's not very nice to accuse people on this forum of multiple murders. :mad:

I'm not sure where these folks that constantly voluntarily speak on the governments behalf come from, but surely even the person with a minimum of critical thinking capabilities must recognise that it is the governments job to convince the citizenry of its truthfulness while it is the job of the citizenry to question and to doubt.I don't care much for the US-government.
People with a minimum of critical thinking capabilities read the various reports and analyze them. They also read the counterarguments put forward by the conspiracists. Until now, all I have seen from the conspiracist doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Governments are like shepards, they keep their flocks for as long as its profitable to do so. After this point they are lead to the slaughter.Wow! Am I glad that there are no FEMA-death camps in Belgium!

You people supporting this rediculous version of 9/11 are either working for the secret police or hopelessly brainwashed after watching episodes of Jack Bouer torturing people. Shame on you either way.Well, we all work for the secret police and watch episodes of Jack Bauer torturing people. :rolleyes:

[DGM]

Governments are like shepards, they keep their flocks for as long as its profitable to do so. After this point they are lead to the slaughter.

No, Governments are a large collection of PEOPLE. Is there a school that all of these people go to to become evil?

[uk_dave]

Won't anyone think of the ugly children?

[pomeroo]

Like Hitler & Stalin this government advocates the use of torture and detention without charge. Unlike Hitler and Stalin they have codified it rather than do it in secret and crushing of a childs testicles in front of a childs parents is legal if the president deems it necessary.




Oddly enough, the crushing of the parent's testicles in front of the child is only legal if a professional clown is present. Go figure.




Unlike Hitler or Stalin this new governemnt will allow the buying and selling of child sex slaves. There are White House lobbyists that lobby for the rights of their minions to use the services of a child sex slave without fear of being prosecuted at home. The UN has reported it, mainstream media has reported it. Keep standing up for the government, but keep your kids a safe distance.




I recently purchased a large fourteen-year old boy for use as a sex slave. Unfortunately, he drank my liquor, beat the living crap out of me, and stole my money. Am I entitled to a refund?



You people supporting this rediculous version of 9/11 are either working for the secret police or hopelessly brainwashed after watching episodes of Jack Bouer torturing people. Shame on you either way.



For many of us, it's both. Does that count as double shame?

[Gravy]

Wow! Am I glad that there are no FEMA-death camps in Belgium!I welcome our Belgian overlords.

[Furcifer]

As far as me being a Canadian Citizen, the reality is that we will all soon be citizens of the NAU, with virtually all the rights that humanity has fought for over the past 1000 years removed in secret.

We're gonna need a new flag then. I would suggest a heavily armed kitty cat drinking tequila and pouring maple syrup over a roasted bald eagle.

[Gravy]

You folks north of the border are so lucky (http://conspiracy.meetup.com/cities/ca/on/toronto/4083847/?ic=sn42).

[8den]

I welcome our Belgian overlords.

Oi! (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2698647&postcount=7)

Hey Doug if Jones doesn't deal with conspiracy theories, why does he claim there is no such thing as Global warming, just the sun overheating? Or his claims that the Omagh Bombing in NI in 1998 was carried out by the British Secret Service, a laughably absurd fantasy.

[Totovader]

The above two posts show a greater willingness to discredit those asking questions by any means possible rather than to participate in an inquiry into the truth.

Furthermore, if in fact Osama bin Laden planned and executed these attacks from a cave in Afghanistan then the only thing I am guilty of is being a responsible & inquisitive citizen.

If it turns out that the official version is something that only covers up a great crime then you guys are guilty of that crime as well.

I'm not sure where these folks that constantly voluntarily speak on the governments behalf come from, but surely even the person with a minimum of critical thinking capabilities must recognise that it is the governments job to convince the citizenry of its truthfulness while it is the job of the citizenry to question and to doubt.

Governments are like shepards, they keep their flocks for as long as its profitable to do so. After this point they are lead to the slaughter.

As far as me being a Canadian Citizen, the reality is that we will all soon be citizens of the NAU, with virtually all the rights that humanity has fought for over the past 1000 years removed in secret. If they have their way you will not have the right of representation or the right of habeus corpus when arrested for a crime. This is by definition a dictatorship. The cororations are writing the new laws in secret. This is fascism according to Mousolini who defined fascism as corporatism.

Like Hitler & Stalin this government advocates the use of torture and detention without charge. Unlike Hitler and Stalin they have codified it rather than do it in secret and crushing of a childs testicles in front of a childs parents is legal if the president deems it necessary.

Unlike Hitler or Stalin this new governemnt will allow the buying and selling of child sex slaves. There are White House lobbyists that lobby for the rights of their minions to use the services of a child sex slave without fear of being prosecuted at home. The UN has reported it, mainstream media has reported it. Keep standing up for the government, but keep your kids a safe distance.

You people supporting this rediculous version of 9/11 are either working for the secret police or hopelessly brainwashed after watching episodes of Jack Bouer torturing people. Shame on you either way.

Doug, don't pretend to be inquisitive when you absolutely refuse to accept the answers that don't confirm your predetermined conclusion.

That's not curiosity- it's not skepticism- it's called being wrong. Notice how you haven't been able to support a single thing you've said- and in fact back out when the evidence is requested? That's not the sign of someone who's done the research due to curiosity.

[Totovader]

"Please present me with a single motive which would cause any FDNY worker to murder up to 300 of his colleagues? This is essentially what you are claiming happened."

When they cover up evidence or imply that there were huge fires and that wtc7 was expected to collapse then that is being an accomplice. Its the same thing as murder.

This is not an answer to the question- it is, however- disgusting and repulsive for you to make this claim.

Is this the official position of the "Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth"?

Are all the other members aware of this position?

[scissorhands]

I wasnt expecting quite this level of batflappery from a recruiter for such an esteemed website for professionals as architects and engineers for truth.
Doug really is quite "out there", isnt he?
Doug, does Richard know you have been let out?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Is it just me, or do they seem to coming out of the woodwork lately?
It's not just you. Every time some new poster shows up and starts spewing such rabid posts I am reminded of the following:
And what meaning do you expect your delusionally self-important statements of unknowing, inexperienced opinion to have with us? What fantasy do you hold that you would believe that your tiny-fisted tantrums would have more weight than that of a leprous desert rat, spinning rabidly in a circle, waiting for the bite of the snake? http://www.ultimateflame.com/

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

"Clearly NIST did not misrepresent column size in this report, so as an honest researcher I have to ask you where you got these facts, why you have not even read NCSTAR 1-1 and whether you will admit to being wrong."

"In the interest of accuracy, there is a mistake in that NIST description. It should be 22x52, not 12x52. That's a typo, though, and doesn't figure into their calculations or models."

Funny how these core columns get misrepresented consistently. How about that BBC animation of the collapses - no core even there. The official stories consistently ignored the core or misrepresented its size. Its a pattern of deception.
l2http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/75834612d273d0a1e.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4939) kthxdrvthru

[MG1962]

We're gonna need a new flag then. I would suggest a heavily armed kitty cat drinking tequila and pouring maple syrup over a roasted bald eagle.

Is the eagle's head pointing to the left or the right...Thats important ya know

[SpitfireIX]

Question to those who've been around here a while. Is Doug Plumb the crankiest "truther" who's ever shown up here? :tinfoil

[Gravy]

Are all the other members aware of this position?They're going to be, because I'm going to tell them. The Gage & Plumb quotable quotient is astonishingly high.

[Doug Plumb]

I have never discussed my world views on 9/11 with Richard Gage, I simply volunteered to help with the verifications for him. I am in no way a spokesman for him or his site any more than any of the other names listed.

As far as Gage making money from the site, I think that is rediculous, many engineers and architects are supporting the fascist regime and many people who have spoken out against 9/11 have lost their jobs, Ryan & Jones being two examples.

[Gravy]

Question to those who've been around here a while. Is Doug Plumb the crankiest "truther" who's ever shown up here? :tinfoilHe's right up there, but folks like Lyte Trip, Christophera, and TruthSeeker1234 are hard to top. And we've got Rick Siegel of 9/11 Eyewitness posting in another thread today. He and Doug may have been separated at birth. I don't know why Doug doesn't just link to Alex Jones MP3s. He could save himself a lot of typing.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Question to those who've been around here a while. Is Doug Plumb the crankiest "truther" who's ever shown up here? :tinfoil
What the butterfly said:
|
\/
He's right up there, but folks like Lyte Trip, Christophera, and TruthSeeker1234 are hard to top. And we've got Rick Siegel of 9/11 Eyewitness posting in another thread today. He and Doug may have been separated at birth. I don't know why Doug doesn't just link to Alex Jones MP3s. He could save himself a lot of typing.

[The Doc]

As far as Gage making money from the site, I think that is rediculous, many engineers and architects are supporting the fascist regime and many people who have spoken out against 9/11 have lost their jobs, Ryan & Jones being two examples.

Oh come on!

Ryan was fired for misrepresenting his company, and Jones resigned.

That's like me punching my boss in the face and saying I got fired for being a debunker. Stupid.

[Brainache]

I'm reminded of a quote from Terry Pratchett about loony handbills: "They were covered with the dense spiky handwriting that identified its owner as an anal retentive with a poor grip"

[Gravy]

I have never discussed my world views on 9/11 with Richard Gage, I simply volunteered to help with the verifications for him. I am in no way a spokesman for him or his site any more than any of the other names listed.Thanks for clearing that up.

As far as Gage making money from the site, I think that is rediculous, many engineers and architects are supporting the fascist regimeAch! Und Speer takes all the credit.

and many people who have spoken out against 9/11 have lost their jobs, Ryan & Jones being two examples.Two very bad examples.

[Doug Plumb]

"Doug, don't pretend to be inquisitive when you absolutely refuse to accept the answers that don't confirm your predetermined conclusion.

That's not curiosity- it's not skepticism- it's called being wrong. Notice how you haven't been able to support a single thing you've said- and in fact back out when the evidence is requested? That's not the sign of someone who's done the research due to curiosity."

Why don't yopu explain a single shred of evidence or suggest a credible motive for Osama bin Laden attacking the USA. the "he hates our freedom" is stupid and the "muslims hate our freedom" is even dumber because they come over here in large numbers and assimilate.

Everything I have said is backed up in easily accessable fact. I'm not doing your homework for you. There is nothing I have said that isn't easily found with a google search.

Pick one thing I have said, anything. Lets see how easy it is to learn about and to verify.

[T.A.M.]

So do we have you on record, as a member of Architects and Engineers for Truth, that your organization feels the FDNY were willingly participating in the cover up of the WTC7 Collapse??

TAM:)

[Gravy]

Why don't yopu explain a single shred of evidence or suggest a credible motive for Osama bin Laden attacking the USA.Why not read, listen to, and watch bin Laden and al Qaeda's explanations? (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/linkstoterrorism%2Calqaedainfo)

[Totovader]

"Doug, don't pretend to be inquisitive when you absolutely refuse to accept the answers that don't confirm your predetermined conclusion.

That's not curiosity- it's not skepticism- it's called being wrong. Notice how you haven't been able to support a single thing you've said- and in fact back out when the evidence is requested? That's not the sign of someone who's done the research due to curiosity."

Why don't yopu explain a single shred of evidence or suggest a credible motive for Osama bin Laden attacking the USA. the "he hates our freedom" is stupid and the "muslims hate our freedom" is even dumber because they come over here in large numbers and assimilate.

Everything I have said is backed up in easily accessable fact. I'm not doing your homework for you. There is nothing I have said that isn't easily found with a google search.

Pick one thing I have said, anything. Lets see how easy it is to learn about and to verify.

Doug, there's a thing called the quote button.

Learn to use it.

As for motive from Osama... I can't tell if you're serious or joking.

Either way- Osama has given his motive in several videos.

Pick one thing you have said? That's not easy, Doug- but it does show that you're unwilling to actually support what you're saying. You spew tons of filth and then expect to compromise with allowing a single statement to be verified?

No- I'm not biting. You verify everything you have said or you're being dishonest. You've already tarnished that good name of your organization- let's see if you can at least clean it up a bit.

Pointing to Google as your source is not sufficient, Doug. Surely, you understand that.

[T.A.M.]

"Doug, don't pretend to be inquisitive when you absolutely refuse to accept the answers that don't confirm your predetermined conclusion.

That's not curiosity- it's not skepticism- it's called being wrong. Notice how you haven't been able to support a single thing you've said- and in fact back out when the evidence is requested? That's not the sign of someone who's done the research due to curiosity."

Why don't yopu explain a single shred of evidence or suggest a credible motive for Osama bin Laden attacking the USA. the "he hates our freedom" is stupid and the "muslims hate our freedom" is even dumber because they come over here in large numbers and assimilate.

Everything I have said is backed up in easily accessable fact. I'm not doing your homework for you. There is nothing I have said that isn't easily found with a google search.

Pick one thing I have said, anything. Lets see how easy it is to learn about and to verify.


And I thought Malcolm Kirkman was battling with 5 year old info...man oh man.

The bolded text nearly made me spit out my morning coffee.

Where are all the descent truthers gone...lol

TAM:)

[Gravy]

So do we have you on record, as a member of Architects and Engineers for Truth, that your organization feels the FDNY were willingly participating in the cover up of the WTC7 Collapse??

TAM:)He says he doesn't speak for them.

[Mancman]

Why don't yopu explain a single shred of evidence or suggest a credible motive for Osama bin Laden attacking the USA. the "he hates our freedom" is stupid and the "muslims hate our freedom" is even dumber because they come over here in large numbers and assimilate.

Everything I have said is backed up in easily accessable fact. I'm not doing your homework for you. There is nothing I have said that isn't easily found with a google search.

Pick one thing I have said, anything. Lets see how easy it is to learn about and to verify.

You talk as if the maniacal, muderous, insane Osama Bin Laden represents all muslims. Obviously he does not. He is part of a radical extremist movement.

Why don't you read his 1996 and 1998 fatwas to find out his motives:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1998.html

Paragraphs such as the following illustrate them:
The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim.

[Mashuna]

He says he doesn't speak for them.

True. However, as he also says things like:


Alex Jones is not a conspiracy theorist either. He also works from fact.

How much reliance can you put on what he says ;) .

From reading the quote above again, I'm not sure what the most ridiculous part is. I'm leaning toward the word also.

[T.A.M.]

Gravy:

Thanks for that...easy to miss that in a thread.

Ok, so it is merely HIS opinion, that the FDNY was in on it...I have run accross some low truthers, but blaming the FDNY really sets a new low...

TAM:)

[Totovader]

Gravy:

Thanks for that...easy to miss that in a thread.

Ok, so it is merely HIS opinion, that the FDNY was in on it...I have run accross some low truthers, but blaming the FDNY really sets a new low...

TAM:)

Of course, but let's not forget he said this:

Everything I have said is backed up in easily accessable fact. [sic]

So, either he's lying- or he believes that his associates are idiots.

It's sort of a catch-22, his associates either have to believe what he believes- which is that the FDNY was in on it, and they are murderers- or he has to believe that his associates are in on it, and they are murderers.

Can't have it both ways. Maybe his friends just haven't "seen the light"- but I'd like to see him try and explain his justification for calling the FDNY murderers to his group.

[T.A.M.]

I agree, if everything he says is truth, backed up by facts, than everyone who does not believe what he says is in denial, and everyone who does believe what he says, believes the FDNY is in on it.

So the rest of your colleagues at the Architects and Engineers for truth, do they believe these facts that back up all you are saying? If they do, than the entire organization must believe the FDNY is in on it.

TAM:)

[Furcifer]

Is the eagle's head pointing to the left or the right...Thats important ya know

Oh crap, you guys could have spoke up sooner. Do you have any idea how hard it was to stitch a roasted bald eagle? I now know why Betsy Ross went with stars and stripes (:)).

[SpitfireIX]

Why don't yopu explain a single shred of evidence or suggest a credible motive for Osama bin Laden attacking the USA. the "he hates our freedom" is stupid and the "muslims hate our freedom" is even dumber because they come over here in large numbers and assimilate.

This is an absurd straw-man caricature of bin Laden's motives. His principal goals are ending US support for Israel and getting the US completely out of Saudi Arabia, location of Islam's holiest shrine.

From a CNN.com article (http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/people/shows/binladen/profile.html):

Some in the Arab world have disputed bin Laden's role in the September 11 strikes. That said, he has voiced his contempt for the United States on several occasions, declaring a holy war "against the United States government because it is unjust, criminal and tyrannical."


Everything I have said is backed up in easily accessable fact. I'm not doing your homework for you. There is nothing I have said that isn't easily found with a google search.


I seem to be unable to find anything about neocons' plans to legalize sex slavery and the crushing of little boys' testicles--could you please provide links?

Further, you ought to be providing evidence for your claims not for our benefit, but for the benefit of the unconvinced who will eventually read this thread. That's why we provide evidence and refutation of your outrageous assertions; not because we expect to convince you, which is obviously a lost cause. You should take a page from our playbook (that's a colloquialism from American football, for those unfamiliar).

Pick one thing I have said, anything. Lets see how easy it is to learn about and to verify.


Le'ts look at your contention that Kevin Ryan was fired for expressing his opinion on the September 11 attacks. This statement is at best a half-truth. What he was fired for was expressing his opinion a) on a subject that had nothing to do with his expertise or work for UL, b) to a UL client, c) in an email from his UL account, d) including his job title in the signature block, e) and copying the email to an outside organization. See here (http://911review.com/articles/ryan/letter.html) and here (http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004/Kevin-R-Ryan22nov04.htm).

In short, he gave the impression that he was speaking for UL. The company was perfectly justified in firing him for that.

[~enigma~]

"Show me an official lie about 9/11. Please, so far not one has come up."

Many of the supposed hijackers that crashed the planes into the towers have shown up alive. This has been reported by multiple mainstream sources. I'm not going to give you a link because if you were interested in truth you would know this.

Or, how about the towers collapsing from fire when its obvious from the video that towers 1 & 2 were blown up & wtc7 was a perfectly executed conventional controlled demolition (textbook example). You can see pieces being ejected outward and upward during towers 1 & 2 collapse. Fire doesn't do that.

How about the gov saying that no one ever considered someone flying planes into the wtc's when their own internal docs, publiucations and memos prove otherwise. Plus it WAS ON TV - The Lone Gunman.

So theres a few lies just off the top of my head.

The FBI tapes of the wtc '93 bombing prove FBI involvement in both planning and execution of that bombing - again on mainstream but before the big corporate conglomeration of the media that was necessary to bring the USA and the world under fascists dictatorship control.

Maybe we will meet up at one of the detention centers that have been built (also on mainstream).

Perhaps you will wake up when the cops start grabbing the cute kids off the street and using them for the international sex slave trade - corporate profits for Haliburton & Bechtel. (also on mainstream)

Maybe you should just stick your head back in the sand.What we have here is a full blown case of woo brain eating disease. Looks terminal in this case.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

This is an absurd straw-man caricature of bin Laden's motives. His principal goals are ending US support for Israel and getting the US completely out of Saudi Arabia, location of Islam's holiest shrine.

From a CNN.com article (http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/people/shows/binladen/profile.html):







I seem to be unable to find anything about neocons' plans to legalize sex slavery and the crushing of little boys' testicles--could you please provide links?

Further, you ought to be providing evidence for your claims not for our benefit, but for the benefit of the unconvinced who will eventually read this thread. That's why we provide evidence and refutation of your outrageous assertions; not because we expect to convince you, which is obviously a lost cause. You should take a page from our playbook (that's a colloquialism from American football, for those unfamiliar).




Le'ts look at your contention that Kevin Ryan was fired for expressing his opinion on the September 11 attacks. This statement is at best a half-truth. What he was fired for was expressing his opinion a) on a subject that had nothing to do with his expertise or work for UL, b) to a UL client, c) in an email from his UL account, d) including his job title in the signature block, e) and copying the email to an outside organization. See here (http://911review.com/articles/ryan/letter.html) and here (http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004/Kevin-R-Ryan22nov04.htm).

In short, he gave the impression that he was speaking for UL. The company was perfectly justified in firing him for that.
RE Kevin Ryan:

""UL does not certify structural steel, such as the beams, columns and trusses used in World Trade Center," said Paul M. Baker, the company's spokesman.
Ryan was fired, Baker said, because he "expressed his own opinions as though they were institutional opinions and beliefs of UL."

"The contents of the argument itself are spurious at best, and frankly, they're just wrong," Baker said.

" http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004/Kevin-R-Ryan22nov04.htm

"Merely being affiliated with a company such as UL does not make one immune to becoming a conspiracy theorist. In any event, Ryan was not directly employed by UL; he was an employee of Environmental Health Laboratories, which is not, as he claimed, a division of UL, but merely affiliated with UL (as many companies are). UL released a public statement saying that they do not certify the steel materials for buildings, and that Ryan was fired for making his absurd and inaccurate comments. No credence should be given to anything Ryan said in his letter. "
http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/index.php/...up#The_UL_Claim (http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/index.php/9/11_coverup#The_UL_Claim)

"Kevin Ryan is not an “expert” in the matters about which he spoke. Kevin Ryan is merely a “chemist” who was employed to study “water” at a division of Underwriter's Laboratories. [This and other easily verified facts ought to be mentioned in any subsequent articles about “loose change”]

Kevin Ryan committed deception and was justifiably fired. Kevin Ryan falsely asserted:
“We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119. The time temperature curves for this standard require the samples to be exposed to temperatures around 2000F for several hours. And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications.”

Apparently, because it did not suit his DECEPTIVE PURPOSES, Dylan Avery did not bother to look up what the ASTM E119 standard actually is. ASTM E119 does NOT test “steel” nor “steel components” per se as Mr. Ryan had implied. Rather, ASTM E119 time-temperature tests evaluate whole building assemblies that include fire-proofing or fire-resistance:

“ASTM E119, Standard Test Method for Fire Tests of Building Construction and Materials, is used to determine the fire resistance of a complete assembly. For example, a wall system fire rating is measured by constructing a 10 foot by 10 foot section of a total wall system: framing, cavity insulation, sheathing, siding, gypsum wall board, etc. The wall section is installed vertically on a gas furnace, and the wall is exposed to a standard temperature curve for the time period for which a rating is desired, i.e., one, two, three, or four hours. Failure points during time of fire exposure are:

“• Flame penetration through the wall section;
“• An unacceptable temperature increase on the unexposed side of the assembly;
“• Structural failure or collapse of the assembly.

“Therefore, a one hour fire resistance rating is taken to mean that a structure incorporating the tested wall construction will not collapse, nor transmit flame or a high temperature, while supporting a design load, for at least one hour after a fully developed building fire.” http://www.pima.org/technical_bulletins/tbull105.html

The chemical and physical or thermal properties of the framing steel members are standardized and known, or are tabulated in catalogues, and determining such are not the object of the ASTM E119 testing. Rather, it is the functionality of the fire-proofing or fire-resistance of the whole assembly that is tested. After you crash an airplane into a building, the ASTM E119 test results become totally irrelevant, because you have changed the structure, at least by removing the fire-proofing or the fire-resistant wall and ceiling materials. [Accordingly, UL spokesman Paul M. Baker stated, "UL does not certify structural steel, such as the beams, columns, and trusses used in the World Trade Center"] The ASTM E119 certification is intended to estimate how long the structural steel WILL BE PROTECTED FROM EXPOSURE to temperatures around 2000F.
" http://www.apfn.net/MESSAGEBOARD/08-15-06/...ion.cgi.88.html (http://www.apfn.net/MESSAGEBOARD/08-15-06/discussion.cgi.88.html) http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=78435

[SpitfireIX]

Oh crap, you guys could have spoke up sooner. Do you have any idea how hard it was to stitch a roasted bald eagle? I now know why Betsy Ross went with stars and bars.[emphasis added]


Erm, I know you didn't mean any offense by this, but the flag of the United States of America is known colloquially as the "Stars and Stripes." The "Stars and Bars" is a colloquial name for the first "national" flag of the so-called Confederate States of America. :footinmou

http://www.wtv-zone.com/civilwar/images/snapshot2.jpg

On a tangentially related point, Betsy Ross is alleged to have convinced the Founding Fathers to switch from six-pointed stars to five-pointed stars because the latter are easier to cut.

[AZCat]

I am astonished and saddened that someone could go through the educational system far enough to obtain an engineering degree, yet still has the critical thinking skills of a third grader. Why do we bother to educate people if all they do when they grow up is parrot the likes of Alex Jones?

[~enigma~]

Pick one thing I have said, anything. Lets see how easy it is to learn about and to verify.Hijackers alive...

[Furcifer]

Erm, I know you didn't mean any offense by this, but the flag of the United States of America is known colloquially as the "Stars and Stripes." The "Stars and Bars" is a colloquial name for the first "national" flag of the so-called Confederate States of America. :footinmou


Oops! It's been fixified, and duly noted. An interesting tid-bit of information as well, I'll take "Americana" for $2000 Alex".

[T.A.M.]

Necrotizing Encephalitis secondary to WIPD (Pronounced "Whipped") - Woo Induced Paranoia Disorder.

TAM:)

[Doug Plumb]

I seem to be unable to find anything about neocons' plans to legalize sex slavery and the crushing of little boys' testicles--could you please provide links?


For the crushing of testicles and sexual torure of young children:

search "torture_yoo_being_asked_justify_crushing_childrens _testicls.htm"

(see video-Skip forward to 1hr: 39mins: 43seconds)

John Yoo is widely quoted on this.

You can listen to the interviews of Michael Ratner, Dr John Coleman, wrt constitutional issues and the Bush administration.

The neocons do not outwardly plan to make sex slavery legal they just do not want to have their minions prosecuted for it when it is done outside the borders of the USA.

Here is a general link to the preversions and acts of evil on the part of the folks you guys are so veraciously defending on this forum.

search "021006elitistperversion.htm"

Lots of main stream links about investigations being shut down, etc.

There have also been numerous FBI agents & cops come out about this. You can search for Ted Gundersen or listen to the Rothstein interview archived at arcticbeacon for May 24 / 2007.

(I cannot post URLs yet because I haven't been here long enough)

[Doug Plumb]

His principal goals are ending US support for Israel and getting the US completely out of Saudi Arabia, location of Islam's holiest shrine.

(re bin Ladens motives for attacking USA on 9/11)

By this logic I should be able to go to any hardware store, pic up a $5.00 brick and throw it through the window of Revenue Canada to avoid paying taxes.

[Doug Plumb]

"Hijackers alive..."

Plenty of links to BBC, NBC, etc, on the WhatReallyHappened web site. Most links to mainstream media that reported this have been mysteriously broken but some still work I believe.

One is widely reported to have been going to the US embassy after the attacks. I forget his name.

[Doug Plumb]

"Hijackers alive..."

Plenty of links to BBC, NBC, etc, on the WhatReallyHappened web site. Most links to mainstream media that reported this have been mysteriously broken but some still work I believe.

One is widely reported to have been going to the US embassy after the attacks. I forget his name. One is an airline pilot in Egypt (likely a stand up comedian for 9/11 part time).

The rest of the world thinks 9/11 is a joke and thinks Americans are morons for believing such rediculous tripe.

[~enigma~]

"Hijackers alive..."

Plenty of links to BBC, NBC, etc, on the WhatReallyHappened web site. Most links to mainstream media that reported this have been mysteriously broken but some still work I believe.

One is widely reported to have been going to the US embassy after the attacks. I forget his name.
Are you referring to this BBC link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm ?

If you actually know how to read the article, maybe you would find the link at the end to another page...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2006/10/911_conspiracy_theory_1.html

So did your "god" find any living hijackers when he went to Morocco?

[Doug Plumb]

When I point out that people have been fired over 9/11 conspiracies, you folks say its because they are incompetent but and its really circular logic because everyone that gets fired for spouting 9/11 conspiracy theories gets fired and by getting fired they must be incompetent and because they are incompetent they are wrong about 9/11.

Ryan merely pointed out the xistance of tests that showed the floors should not have failed under far worse conditions. I assume that he is qualified to read.

[DGM]

The rest of the world thinks 9/11 is a joke and thinks Americans are morons for believing such rediculous tripe.

The truthers are pretty silly aren't they. You had us going there, good one.

[Slayhamlet]

(re bin Ladens motives for attacking USA on 9/11)

By this logic I should be able to go to any hardware store, pic up a $5.00 brick and throw it through the window of Revenue Canada to avoid paying taxes.

:boggled:

Wow, can you say "non sequitur"?

[~enigma~]

When I point out that people have been fired over 9/11 conspiracies, you folks say its because they are incompetent but and its really circular logic because everyone that gets fired for spouting 9/11 conspiracy theories gets fired and by getting fired they must be incompetent and because they are incompetent they are wrong about 9/11.

Ryan merely pointed out the xistance of tests that showed the floors should not have failed under far worse conditions. I assume that he is qualified to read.
Before you spout stupidity about something you don't know, I think you should read the documents here...

http://home.houston.rr.com/enigmaviking/

[Doug Plumb]

enigma,

funny how none of the photos have changed on the most wanted list.

Funnier still that the attacks on 9/11 was not why Osama was wanted. Read about why they want Osama. 9/11 isn't mentioned.

[Foolmewunz]

Doug,

This is your first venture out into the big world, isn't it? Things were a lot easier over at "Meetup", with your 12 to 15 little taggers-along. Now, you've gotten yourself associated with A.E.B.S.911, which will last, oh about another four days when they see what they've aligned with.

Gage must have done a real good job of vetting the applicants for the organization. Not! If he wants any credibility whatsoever for his bogus group, you're gonna have to be one of the first to go, I'm afraid. If not, he relegates his whole organization to the comic pages.

Just for cuiosity sake..... What is it exactly that you do in Electrical Engineering. Programming?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Wow, what an utter shock. Another proponent of conspiracy theories that appears unable to:
* Stay on a topic
* Engage in dialogue rather than talking at people
* Look at counter-evidence provided, preferring to dismiss it out of hand

[~enigma~]

enigma,

funny how none of the photos have changed on the most wanted list.

Funnier still that the attacks on 9/11 was not why Osama was wanted. Read about why they want Osama. 9/11 isn't mentioned.
With the amount of stupidity coming from your posts I would strongly suggest going back to the university you graduated from and demanding a refund...I will stand as a witness for you and prove your ineptitude in basic thinking skills.

[~enigma~]

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/4954/catmousejl3.png

[pomeroo]

For the crushing of testicles and sexual torure of young children:

search "torture_yoo_being_asked_justify_crushing_childrens _testicls.htm"

(see video-Skip forward to 1hr: 39mins: 43seconds)

John Yoo is widely quoted on this.

You can listen to the interviews of Michael Ratner, Dr John Coleman, wrt constitutional issues and the Bush administration.

The neocons do not outwardly plan to make sex slavery legal they just do not want to have their minions prosecuted for it when it is done outside the borders of the USA.

Here is a general link to the preversions and acts of evil on the part of the folks you guys are so veraciously defending on this forum.

search "021006elitistperversion.htm"





I guess you think your insanity will prevent me from calling you a liar.

Wrong!



Lots of main stream links about investigations being shut down, etc.

There have also been numerous FBI agents & cops come out about this. You can search for Ted Gundersen or listen to the Rothstein interview archived at arcticbeacon for May 24 / 2007.

(I cannot post URLs yet because I haven't been here long enough)



You are an extraordinary loon in all respects.

[MortFurd]

"Hijackers alive..."

Plenty of links to BBC, NBC, etc, on the WhatReallyHappened web site. Most links to mainstream media that reported this have been mysteriously broken but some still work I believe.

One is widely reported to have been going to the US embassy after the attacks. I forget his name. One is an airline pilot in Egypt (likely a stand up comedian for 9/11 part time).

The rest of the world thinks 9/11 is a joke and thinks Americans are morons for believing such rediculous tripe.

Come visit me in Germany. When I tell people here that there are Americans who believe that their own government carried out the 9/11 attacks, they just stare in complete bafflement that anybody could believe such BS.

When you leave here, you can go to Egypt and track down some of those supposedly still living terrorists. You are aware that there are names in other countries/cultures that are as common as John Smith is in the US?

[Firestone]

As far as Gage making money from the site, I think that is rediculous, many engineers and architects are supporting the fascist regime and many people who have spoken out against 9/11 have lost their jobs, Ryan & Jones being two examples.As has been noted already, Ryan and Steven Jones are not very good examples of people who lost their jobs "because they have spoken out against 9/11".

But who are the many others? :confused:

"Hijackers alive..."

Plenty of links to BBC, NBC, etc, on the WhatReallyHappened web site. Most links to mainstream media that reported this have been mysteriously broken but some still work I believe.Of course, you only read reports that suit your CT.

Here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2006/10/911_conspiracy_theory_1.html) is what the BBC has to say about their own report concerning the "Hijackers alive...".

One is widely reported to have been going to the US embassy after the attacks. I forget his name.Since this is supposedly widely reported, why can't you provide some credible sources for this claim?

One is an airline pilot in Egypt (likely a stand up comedian for 9/11 part time).Source?
(note for the regulars: I am not a PD-sock. :) )

The rest of the world thinks 9/11 is a joke and thinks Americans are morons for believing such rediculous tripe.Well, like MortFurd I don't live in the US, and I can assure you that most people here consider the 9/11-CT utter BS.

[MortFurd]

When I point out that people have been fired over 9/11 conspiracies, you folks say its because they are incompetent but and its really circular logic because everyone that gets fired for spouting 9/11 conspiracy theories gets fired and by getting fired they must be incompetent and because they are incompetent they are wrong about 9/11.

Ryan merely pointed out the xistance of tests that showed the floors should not have failed under far worse conditions. I assume that he is qualified to read.
There's info on your "hero" Ryan this page. (http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/05/loose-marbles-ii.html) Read. Check the links. Learn.

[ref]

"Hijackers alive..."

Plenty of links to BBC, NBC, etc, on the WhatReallyHappened web site. Most links to mainstream media that reported this have been mysteriously broken but some still work I believe.

One is widely reported to have been going to the US embassy after the attacks. I forget his name. One is an airline pilot in Egypt (likely a stand up comedian for 9/11 part time).

The rest of the world thinks 9/11 is a joke and thinks Americans are morons for believing such rediculous tripe.

I'm lazy. Read this.
Claim: Several of the hijackers are reported to be alive.Discussed here:
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/ISN10024.pdf (http://www.defenselink.mil/news/ISN10024.pdf)
http://www.911myths.com/html/still_alive.html
http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics...itle=Hijackers (http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/index.php?title=Hijackers)
(http://www.911myths.com/html/still_alive.html)http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1559151.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditor..._theory_1.html (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditor..._theory_1.htmlhttp://www.defenselink.mil/news/ISN10024.pdf)


In Brief: The story was first reported by the BBC and several other news agencies in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. BBC updated their story in 2006. The update clearly states:
“The story, written in the immediate aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, was about confusion at the time surrounding the names and identities of some of the hijackers. We later reported on the list of hijackers (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1581063.stm), thereby superseding the earlier report. The confusion over names and identities we reported back in 2001 may have arisen because these were common Arabic and Islamic names.”

The FBI and the 9/11 commission have confirmed, that the hijackers responsible for the attacks have been positively identified. There has been no issue of doubt raised by further reviews to the hijackers identities.

Further confirmation into hijackers identities was recovered during the capture of Khalid Shaikh Mohammad. A computer hard drive seized during the capture contained the names of the hijackers, photographs of 19 individuals identified as the 9/11 hijackers, biographies of several of the hijackers, images of passports, pilot names, code names, targets and so on.


Also read this post by Gumboot:

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2631461&postcount=5

[kookbreaker]

Ryan merely pointed out the xistance of tests that showed the floors should not have failed under far worse conditions. I assume that he is qualified to read.

He might be able to read, but he's quite obviously not able to understand. Ryan made handwaving and vague references to ASTM E119, which is a method of heat testing materials for baseline tests, not a certification of steel. Ryan also babbled about forging temperatures that have nothing to do with the behavior of steel in a fire.

You obviously do not know what you are talking about. Ryan is an was a fool.

[beachnut]

Why don't yopu explain a single shred of evidence or suggest a credible motive for Osama bin Laden attacking the USA.

Everything I have said is backed up in easily accessable fact. I'm not doing your homework for you. There is nothing I have said that isn't easily found with a google search.

Pick one thing I have said, anything. Lets see how easy it is to learn about and to verify.
Doug, bin Landen said he would kill people from the USA. I do not understand the ways of Islam, but bin Laden said he would kill USA people. I guess our freedom to make friends with anyone in the world is not a big plus with bin Laden. bin Laden said this on TV, if you have a mind and can listen you would know bin Laden was looking to kill USA people, were ever he can. This is what all the warnings were about before 9/11. bin Laden was out to kill USA people and we were warned to be on the look out around the world. bin Laden forgot to tell us how he was going to do it. Then did not load bombs on planes, they used planes as bombs, simple easy no large investment in things. Forget the Presidents simplification and naivety, UBL wanted to kill people from the USA and drive us away from the Middle East, or whatever UBL wants, he is out to kill people from the USA. Go figure.

Google is your primary tool for your crack research. Wow, google never has bad info on it does it. As it turns out, you can not trust anything on google, you have to check it. You have to use your mind. I think you need help, your mind has made bad decisions, you have picked the junk and lies about 9/11. You have made it a science being wrong. You seem to be perfect at being wrong.

I picked everything you said and found it wrong, using google. Wow, google can work when used with help from real research, using real facts. Not one thing you have said. Did I miss something?

[Calcas]

Well, like MortFurd I don't live in the US, and I can assure you that most people here consider the 9/11-CT utter BS.

I think many people get a wrong impression of the twoof movement here. As one who DOES live in America, I can assure you that the vast majority of people here also consider the 9-11-CT utter BS.

And, what is with this guy? He spouts nonsense like "the hijackers are still alive" without ever having learned that that has been debunked SO MANY TIMES already as previously shown above.

Twoof lite.

[CptColumbo]

snip...
And, what is with this guy? He spouts nonsense like "the hijackers are still alive" without ever having learned that that has been debunked SO MANY TIMES already as previously shown above.

Twoof lite.

I have two working theories regarding CT posters who bring up old debunked information:
1. He/she wants to be a hero. They are told about the JREF, and how tough it is over here. Without reading the previous threads, they think this is the one piece of information that hasn't been brought up here. Since it is the one they have personally looked into the most, they believe that they can "save the day" and shut us up with it.

2. CTers think everyone has memory problems. They will post a statement of "fact," then dance around having to give actual proof about it until we grow weary of the subject. Then bring it up again, hoping no one remebers that they had no proof before, and will just accept it as fact.

[T.A.M.]

Is it just me, or are the truthers coming here lately really Bush League, rehashing the long ago debunked tripe.

Swing (I cant believe I am saying this ;)) is perhaps the most up to date of the lot.

TAM:)

[VespaGuy]

funny how none of the photos have changed on the most wanted list.


I've heard this claim over and over again from CTs and still have no idea how this is evidence of an inside job?

Are you saying that the FBI isn't involved?
Are you saying that the FBI is involved, and even though they know about the inside job, and have assisted in the cover-up, for some strange reason they aren't allowed to lie about Bin Laden on their most-wanted list?
Are you saying that the FBI is involved and simply forgot to put Bin Laden on the list?

Can you clarify this for us, Doug? How does Bin Laden's absence on the FBI's most-wanted list indicate an inside job?

[CptColumbo]

enigma,

funny how none of the photos have changed on the most wanted list. And this proves what? That the FBI is unaware that OBL now looks like this.

[DGM]

Can you clarify this for us, Doug? How does Bin Laden's absence on the FBI's most-wanted list indicate an inside job?

He's on the list all right it's just that it's not for 9/11. It's like being wanted for murdering thousands of people and forgetting cruelty to animals.

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm

[T.A.M.]

Funny, has one single GODAM* truther bothered to ask the FBI or their PR people why this is the case, and if so, what was their response?

TAM:)

[CurtC]

How does Bin Laden's absence on the FBI's most-wanted list indicate an inside job?
Bin Laden is on the FBI's Most Wanted List (http://www.fbi.gov/wanted.htm). He's been on it since 1999.


Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world.

SHOULD BE CONSIDERED ARMED AND DANGEROUSThat last line is kind of funny IMO.

[VespaGuy]

Funny, has one single GODAM* truther bothered to ask the FBI or their PR people why this is the case, and if so, what was their response?

TAM:)

That was actually my next question...

Doug, you find it funny that the FBI does not specifically list Bin Laden as a suspect in the 9/11 attacks. Can you tell us the real reason that 9/11 isn't listed on Bin Laden's poster, and why you feel this is a lie?

Thanks.

[VespaGuy]

Bin Laden is on the FBI's Most Wanted List (http://www.fbi.gov/wanted.htm). He's been on it since 1999.

My bad.

Doug was saying that it was funny that Bin Laden isn't specifically fingered as the man responsible for 9/11.

[T.A.M.]

Yes, if he is a CIA asset, as the truthers claim, than what difference to the NWO would it be if his wanted poster said - wanted for 9/11, or not...

TAM:)

[kookbreaker]

I have two working theories regarding CT posters who bring up old debunked information:
1. He/she wants to be a hero. They are told about the JREF, and how tough it is over here. Without reading the previous threads, they think this is the one piece of information that hasn't been brought up here. Since it is the one they have personally looked into the most, they believe that they can "save the day" and shut us up with it.


I did this cartoon a while ago illustrating your point.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g157/kookbreaker/its-like-an-assembly-line-really.png

[T.A.M.]

Kookbreaker:

You hit the nail on the proverbial head.

Well done.

TAM:)

[Corsair 115]

Or, how about the towers collapsing from fire when its obvious from the video that towers 1 & 2 were blown up & wtc7 was a perfectly executed conventional controlled demolition (textbook example). You can see pieces being ejected outward and upward during towers 1 & 2 collapse. Fire doesn't do that.Really? And what's your expertise and background which allows you to conclusively state that fire doesn't do that? I trust it's something more substantial than having watched Hollywood movies and TV shows.

[Corsair 115]

As far as me being a Canadian Citizen, the reality is that we will all soon be citizens of the NAU, with virtually all the rights that humanity has fought for over the past 1000 years removed in secret. If they have their way you will not have the right of representation or the right of habeus corpus when arrested for a crime. Really? The items being discussed under the North American Union include changes to the procedures for the administration of criminal law? I presume you can point out the relevant passage from any documentation?

I wasn't aware of any legislation being proposed in Parliament which advocated the doing away with of Canadian legal tender and its replacement with U.S. dollars. Might you point me to the relevant bill? I wasn't aware that any legislation was before Parliament which proposed the abolishment of the nation of Canada and the seeking of statehood inside the United States. Might you point me to the relevant bill?

The major piece of news that was on CBC Newsworld this afternoon was a press conference by Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day addressing the RCMP pension fund scandal. I didn't see anything about the elimination of Canadian currency or the dissolution of Canada... you'd think the CBC or CTV would consider either of these to be rather major news stories...

[tsig]

The illuminati symbol is on your money.



Oh Noes!
They iz on ur monez
Eating itz value

[Panoply_Prefect]

Umm, now that mininukes seems to be the fad again, I just like to run something by you guys to see if its correct.

Wasn't all research regarding mini-nukes banned in the US between 1993 and 2003? (I've read somewhere that the ban was lifted may 8th 2003 by Bush).

Oh and NAU? Whassat?

Cheers,
SLOB

[tsig]

You folks north of the border are so lucky (http://conspiracy.meetup.com/cities/ca/on/toronto/4083847/?ic=sn42).

Looks looks like he's doing it to meet chicks.

Or become a guru and make lots of money

Or all of the above.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Oh Noes!
They iz on ur monez
Eating itz value
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/i-has-a-muneez.jpg

[Arus808]

Oh Noes!
They iz on ur monez
Eating itz value

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/22/ohnoezae2.jpg

[pomeroo]

"Has implied the FDNY were complicit of murder. Says the 7/7/05 London bombings were orchestrated by British intelligence. Says global warming is a hoax. Says AIDS was orchestrated by the high powers of the world. Says the Oklahoma bombing was orchestrated by the FBI. Says the 1993 WTC bombing was orchestrated by the FBI. Says there is a New World Order, an Illuminati, an evil entity of powerful people that control and dominate the entire world. Says the NWO/Illuminati leave signs and give clues of their work, but are so arrogant they just don't care if someone (Alex Jones) notices. Says there is a plan to get rid of most of the population of the world. "

All these things have been admitted and/or proven to be true.

As far as the evil entity of people that control the world, THEY have admitted it. They are the ones that print the money. Look up "banker quotes" sometime. The web site for The Money Masters has numerous presidential quotes. The illuminati symbol is on your money.




Yoiks! The Illuminati is on our money!! All I can say is that it's a damn good thing the Illuminati doesn't exist, or...or...well, I don't know exactly.




The best way to learn how the world works is to look up and read "The Report From Iron Mountain". You can learn about global warming and UFO's from that. It wasn't a hoax. It was authenticated by Galbraith.


Others have told me that the best way to learn how the world works is to refuse to pay credit card bills.

[LashL]

Doug Plumb
Toronto, ON · May 5, 2007

"I am a monetary reformist and believe it is the most important issue of humanity."


The woo runs deep with this one.

[bje]

If it turns out that the official version is something that only covers up a great crime then you guys are guilty of that crime as well.


There is no "official version", Doug. There is only the evidence from thousands of different sources and hundreds of unconnected witnesses. Your "official version" canard was put to rest long ago and remains the Achilles heal of your 9/11 Denial Movement.

I'm not sure where these folks that constantly voluntarily speak on the governments behalf come from, but surely even the person with a minimum of critical thinking capabilities must recognise that it is the governments job to convince the citizenry of its truthfulness while it is the job of the citizenry to question and to doubt.
This presents you with a huge problem, Doug: the evidence of what happened on 9/11 did not come from the government. They are neither the source of the evidence nor had control of it to begin with.

Your 9/11 denial movement has always deceitfully tried to simply matters for itself by blaming one entity - the government - to avoid having to deal with the evidence - all of that massive evidence - that you cannot refute.

We've always been onto you, Doug. You need to get up to date on the facts.

[tsig]

For the crushing of testicles and sexual torure of young children:

search "torture_yoo_being_asked_justify_crushing_childrens _testicls.htm"

(see video-Skip forward to 1hr: 39mins: 43seconds)

John Yoo is widely quoted on this.

You can listen to the interviews of Michael Ratner, Dr John Coleman, wrt constitutional issues and the Bush administration.

The neocons do not outwardly plan to make sex slavery legal they just do not want to have their minions prosecuted for it when it is done outside the borders of the USA.

Here is a general link to the preversions and acts of evil on the part of the folks you guys are so veraciously defending on this forum.

search "021006elitistperversion.htm"

Lots of main stream links about investigations being shut down, etc.

There have also been numerous FBI agents & cops come out about this. You can search for Ted Gundersen or listen to the Rothstein interview archived at arcticbeacon for May 24 / 2007.

(I cannot post URLs yet because I haven't been here long enough)

Give up this boy/sex thing it is not good

[peteweaver]

Doug, for your information:

Osamas motives are as follows:
1) USA military presence in the middle east.
2) USA aid's Israel, monetarily, and militarily.
3) US Military shelled Beirut in 1982, the collapse of tower blocks gave him the idea for attacking the twin towers.
4) The Quran compels muslims to fight whenever they feel oppressed.

Take a look at the Quran:http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.123

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.029

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.005

Numerous Surahs exist in the Quran which discuss fighting.
There have been many mujahiddeen's in the history of Islam.
Al Qaeda percieve themselves to be taking revenge against injustice's caused by the USA in the middle east.They had the means (Osama Bin Laden was trained as an engineer himself, and owns ten percent of the shares in the Bin Laden construction company, which has lucrative contracts with the Saudi Royal Family), they had trained pilots, & they had the motive.

Fires burning at 650 degrees C will reduce steel to less than half its normal tensile strength, that combined with a load will cause deformity. Deformity in the steel of the world trade center was observed by police helicopters, and the outer columns were bowing inwards...

I would have thought as an engineer you would have known about this, however you are an electrician by trade and not, an expert in the field of structural fire engineering. Infact you aren't even a ley person. Kindly explain what qualifications you have that are relavent to understanding the collapse of a steel framed building which has suffered structural damage and fire ?

[uk_dave]

Kindly explain what qualifications you have that are relavent to understanding the collapse of a steel framed building which has suffered structural damage and fire ?

$100 (£50) says he mentions 'common sense' :D

[Minadin]

Umm, now that mininukes seems to be the fad again, I just like to run something by you guys to see if its correct.

Wasn't all research regarding mini-nukes banned in the US between 1993 and 2003? (I've read somewhere that the ban was lifted may 8th 2003 by Bush).

Oh and NAU? Whassat?

Cheers,
SLOB

NAU = North American Union

It's supposed to be what the future has in store for Canada, the United States, and Mexico. We'll be coerced into basically forming a supernation in order to compete with the EU economically. We'll all share the same money and there will be open borders. It's just one more step toward the one-world government that the NWO wants.

Of course, it ignores the fact that the gross economy of the US already basically does compete with the EU on its own, even though it only has 2/3 of the population, and that neither of the northern 2 countries in this hypothetical alliance particularly want to burden themselves with the issues of their neighbor directly to the south, and that each of the nations mentioned seems to very much enjoy being their own independent country.

Besides that, it has very little basis in actuality. I believe that the theories first formed around the time the EU was being organized, and there were talks about various economic alliances with our neighbors here in North America - of which one result was NAFTA - but there were other things discussed regarding expanding guest worker programs, opening the borders, making it easier to move goods, services, jobs, and people, around the continent . . . which is where most of this talk comes from. Most often I hear mentioned is the mythical "NAFTA Superhighway" which is supposed be some giant 16-lane wide monstrosity that starts in Texas somewhere near (at?) the border and goes straight to Canada (although where in Canada has always been rather unclear).

[JimBenArm]

We are the USA. Your uniqueness will be added to the collective. Resistance is futile.

[tsig]

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/22/ohnoezae2.jpg

Thanks for the pic.

My computer skills are limited to using the "quote" button.

[e^n]

Funny how these core columns get misrepresented consistently. How about that BBC animation of the collapses - no core even there. The official stories consistently ignored the core or misrepresented its size. Its a pattern of deception.

You claim this, but I have just presented you evidence from the only official report showing clear definition of the core columns. Not only this, if you had read the NIST report as any true researcher should you would have noticed that NIST conducted a large amount of testing to determine how the core columns behaved.

Have you read the NIST report? How many pages?

[Civilized Worm]

Lets be clear about why I will not debate any of you debunkers:

You lie. You misrepresent your qualifications.


What, you mean like this? "The conventional explanation does not explain what Judy Woods has uncovered. She gives a talk with photos on her site Google "jane Doe Judy Wood". She is a Phd Structural Engineer and has other related degrees in material science. No one is more qualified than Judy Wood."



This would be the easiest thing to do. Hiding is best done in plain sight.


You must suck at hide and seek.


Many of the supposed hijackers that crashed the planes into the towers have shown up alive. This has been reported by multiple mainstream sources. I'm not going to give you a link because if you were interested in truth you would know this.


Really? I would have thought that if any of them had "shown up alive" you guys would be wheeling them out at every one of your glorified circlejerks. Where are they Doug?


I do not know what happened. I do not speculate because I am not a conspiracy theorist. I work only from fact.


You say that and yet you have still to present us with any.


Alex Jones is not a conspiracy theorist either. He also works from fact. Some people think he aggagerates the interpretation of fact but this does not mean he is a conspiracy theorist.


Wow. If Jones does fit the description of conspiracy theorist I'd really like to know who does!


"Has implied the FDNY were complicit of murder. Says the 7/7/05 London bombings were orchestrated by British intelligence. Says global warming is a hoax. Says AIDS was orchestrated by the high powers of the world. Says the Oklahoma bombing was orchestrated by the FBI. Says the 1993 WTC bombing was orchestrated by the FBI. Says there is a New World Order, an Illuminati, an evil entity of powerful people that control and dominate the entire world. Says the NWO/Illuminati leave signs and give clues of their work, but are so arrogant they just don't care if someone (Alex Jones) notices. Says there is a plan to get rid of most of the population of the world. "

All these things have been admitted and/or proven to be true.


When was it admitted/proven to be true that AIDS was orchestrated by the government? I'm sure I would have caught that headline.


Furthermore, if in fact Osama bin Laden planned and executed these attacks from a cave in Afghanistan then the only thing I am guilty of is being a responsible & inquisitive citizen.


Well that and accusing innocent people of mass murder.


I have never discussed my world views on 9/11 with Richard Gage, I simply volunteered to help with the verifications for him. I am in no way a spokesman for him or his site any more than any of the other names listed.


Wow, so you're sole responsibility was to make sure that only people with genuine qualifications were listed on the site? That doesn't reflect very well on you now does it?

[peteweaver]

Well said Civilized Worm, Doug's arguments have been made into mincemeat:

http://www.infowhores.co.uk/images/mincemeat.jpg

It may explain why he doesn't like debate.

[Mancman]

http://www.lolcats.com/images/u/07/24/lolcatsdotcomgs92w81k6peka80w.jpg

[WildCat]

Kindly explain what qualifications you have that are relavent to understanding the collapse of a steel framed building which has suffered structural damage and fire ?
He has prisonplanet as his home page on his computer.

[peteweaver]

He has prisonplanet as his home page on his computer.

Prison Planet its like: :mysteryma:daphne::shaggy::fred::velma::scooby-do but sillier.

[Doug Plumb]

You guys seem to talk a lot but almost never say anything. Then you had pixels to the conversation as if to emphasise the previous point with a further waste of bandwidth.

[Doug Plumb]

Really? I would have thought that if any of them had "shown up alive" you guys would be wheeling them out at every one of your glorified circlejerks. Where are they Doug?


Its impossible for them to appear in public because what they would have to say would thoroughly discredit the USA and its president and likely cause something close to a revolution.

When that sort of thing happens people get killed off instead. Don't you know any history of your own country ? Every monetary reformer except Jackson was killed and Jackson got awfully lucky because two pistols did not go off.

You should listen to a few of Kennedys speeches before they killed him.

[Gravy]

How are you coming along with the enormous amount of reading material that you've been referred to, Doug Who Doesn't Debate?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Its impossible for them to appear in public because what they would have to say would thoroughly discredit the USA and its president and likely cause something close to a revolution.

When that sort of thing happens people get killed off instead. Don't you know any history of your own country ? Every monetary reformer except Jackson was killed and Jackson got awfully lucky because two pistols did not go off.

You should listen to a few of Kennedys speeches before they killed him.
Post hoc rationalize much?

Take it to the UN. Take it to foreign media. Take it to the loo and flush it.

[Gravy]

You should listen to a few of Kennedys speeches before they killed him.I'm most impressed by the speeches he made after they killed him.

[uk_dave]

So they are dead then?

OK that clears up that misunderstanding.

The erroneous reports of them being alive were just that then. Because, of course, they couldn't be known to be alive if they couldn't be shown to be alive because then they'd be dead, not alive. Or something.

C'mon doug, you're sounding like a teenager. Let's have some meat to your arguments. Impress us.

Here we are now
Entertain us

...and so forth.

[Mashuna]

I'm most impressed by the speeches he made after they killed him.

I think you're getting Kennedy confused with Tupac again.:p

[8den]

Its impossible for them to appear in public because what they would have to say would thoroughly discredit the USA and its president and likely cause something close to a revolution.
.

So the awesome power of this administration is such that

A) they can control the media into not investigating that these hijackers are alive.

B) Cow governments into suppressing the continuted existance of these men.

But also they cannot control the media to the extent that they cannot stop reports of these men being alive? Doug is a little consistency too much to ask for?

[e^n]

You guys seem to talk a lot but almost never say anything. Then you had pixels to the conversation as if to emphasise the previous point with a further waste of bandwidth.

Doug, you claim this but you have yet to respond to my very simple question. Why have you not even read NIST NCSTAR 1-1?

[pomeroo]

Its impossible for them to appear in public because what they would have to say would thoroughly discredit the USA and its president and likely cause something close to a revolution.

When that sort of thing happens people get killed off instead. Don't you know any history of your own country ? Every monetary reformer except Jackson was killed and Jackson got awfully lucky because two pistols did not go off.

You should listen to a few of Kennedys speeches before they killed him.



Obviously, you are far too dumb to figure out that if your imaginary conspiracy existed, it would surely kill anyone it identified as a hijacker.

Duh!

You should read a serious book on the JFK assassination. This idiocy gets tiresome.

[Doug Plumb]

Why have you not even read NIST NCSTAR 1-1?

I have read bits of it and specifically looked at the damaged floors and the associated support column damage. Its not difficult to see the the building should have remained standing from the damage. The core is built to a factor of being able to support 6 times their normal weight, the outside was built to 20 times its normal gravity load. Its not hard to figure out that the building should have remained standing.

The building designers confirm that the building was designed to stand.

The building remained standing and its natural frequency of vibration did not change therefore the building remained standing & solid.

Its obvious that 9/11 was an inside job. You can look at it any number of ways with mutually independent sets of facts and still conclude that it was an inside job.

The problem is that members of this "bowel movement" that supports the official version just do not understand the historical and sociologic meaning of 9/11. Many people think that this set of events set in motion will ultimately benefit them.

When they get the RFID chip inside you you are dead. You are directly property of this empire and they have absolute power over you and everyone else. A great big vice is going to slowly squeeze you just like its squeezing people now because people in control will just get greedier and greedier and more paranoid and squeeeze even the self proclaimed "elites" more and more.

[e^n]

I have read bits of it and specifically looked at the damaged floors and the associated support column damage. Its not difficult to see the the building should have remained standing from the damage. The core is built to a factor of being able to support 6 times their normal weight, the outside was built to 20 times its normal gravity load. Its not hard to figure out that the building should have remained standing.
You misunderstand dead and live loads. Still, considering you make the claim they misrepresented column size, why is it that you have read NCSTAR 1-1 and missed page 11?

The building designers confirm that the building was designed to stand.
Who? None of them agree with you.

The building remained standing and its natural frequency of vibration did not change therefore the building remained standing & solid.
Indeed it did, impressively so.

Its obvious that 9/11 was an inside job. You can look at it any number of ways with mutually independent sets of facts and still conclude that it was an inside job.
Then present them, I have listened to many many theories and not a single one has been based on facts.

[Totovader]

It appears as though Doug is unable to resolve the contradiction of believing the FDNY are "murderers"- and that this is backed up by easily accessible facts- anyone who doesn't believe it is obviously a fool, yet he is unable to confirm what the stance is on this for his organization.

That's the problem with these groups- they're so desperate for companionship and numbers that any theories are valid as long as it's not the theory supported by the science and the evidence. This means that all members usually contradict each other- and the group is just a superficial political organization with no direction.

Science doesn't work that way.

So, which is it, Doug- do the other members of the AE911Truth organization believe- as you do- that the FDNY was in on it, or are they disinfo agents or something?

If they're misguided, then I would love to see you debate them. You can all pretend to have evidence; it will be like make-believe time.

[JimBenArm]

I have read bits of it and specifically looked at the damaged floors and the associated support column damage. Its not difficult to see the the building should have remained standing from the damage. The core is built to a factor of being able to support 6 times their normal weight, the outside was built to 20 times its normal gravity load. Its not hard to figure out that the building should have remained standing.

The building designers confirm that the building was designed to stand.

Care to provide some proof of this?

The building remained standing and its natural frequency of vibration did not change therefore the building remained standing & solid.
??? What is this supposed to mean? I mean, really, do you just make up science-like terms and spout them like they actually are relevent?

Its obvious that 9/11 was an inside job. You can look at it any number of ways with mutually independent sets of facts and still conclude that it was an inside job.
So why do I remain so stubbornly unconvinced of this?

The problem is that members of this "bowel movement" that supports the official version just do not understand the historical and sociologic meaning of 9/11. Many people think that this set of events set in motion will ultimately benefit them.
Benefit me? Oh, yeah, I can see the big benefits now...

When they get the RFID chip inside you you are dead. You are directly property of this empire and they have absolute power over you and everyone else. A great big vice is going to slowly squeeze you just like its squeezing people now because people in control will just get greedier and greedier and more paranoid and squeeeze even the self proclaimed "elites" more and more.
Uhm. Yeah. Okay then. Now we're really out in looney-tunes land. No reply needed, this is just absurd on its face.

Have fun in Fantasy Land! I hear the Teacup ride is lots of fun!

[Totovader]

I have read bits of it and specifically looked at the damaged floors and the associated support column damage. Its not difficult to see the the building should have remained standing from the damage. The core is built to a factor of being able to support 6 times their normal weight, the outside was built to 20 times its normal gravity load. Its not hard to figure out that the building should have remained standing.

The building designers confirm that the building was designed to stand.

The building remained standing and its natural frequency of vibration did not change therefore the building remained standing & solid.

Its obvious that 9/11 was an inside job. You can look at it any number of ways with mutually independent sets of facts and still conclude that it was an inside job.

The problem is that members of this "bowel movement" that supports the official version just do not understand the historical and sociologic meaning of 9/11. Many people think that this set of events set in motion will ultimately benefit them.

When they get the RFID chip inside you you are dead. You are directly property of this empire and they have absolute power over you and everyone else. A great big vice is going to slowly squeeze you just like its squeezing people now because people in control will just get greedier and greedier and more paranoid and squeeeze even the self proclaimed "elites" more and more.

Perfect example of an argument from incredulity- tied together with a nice appeal to spite. You have no facts or figures to support your assertions, so you just have to make them personally believable and hope nobody questions you.

We will, though. Your personal incredulity means bupkis.

Please provide your calculations showing the towers would not have collapsed under the conditions outlined in the NIST investigation.