USS Liberty a cover-up?

[petra10]

There has been a few tv programmes on about the six day war.Its the 40th aniversary.I knew about the liberty ship being hit by what was supposed to be by accident but this programme really made good points that the Israel knew that she was an American ship.Their main point being they wanted to draw America into the war by making them think the Egyptians were responsible.Just wondered what Americans think, was this a cover-up?

[gumboot]

If they wanted the Americans to think it was an attack by Egyptians, they probably should have:

A) Done it before they destroyed the entire Egyptian air force
B) Attacked the ship with aircraft carrying Egyptian markings, not Israeli
C) Told the torpedo boat crews not to fly the Israeli flag

I mean... the Liberty was an intelligence ship... it's not like it won't notice those sorts of things.

-Gumboot

[SpitfireIX]

If they wanted the Americans to think it was an attack by Egyptians, they probably should have:

A) Done it before they destroyed the entire Egyptian air force
B) Attacked the ship with aircraft carrying Egyptian markings, not Israeli
C) Told the torpedo boat crews not to fly the Israeli flag

I mean... the Liberty was an intelligence ship... it's not like it won't notice those sorts of things.

-Gumboot


Further, as her captain stated, the Liberty mistakenly opened fire on the torpedo boats while they were attempting to communicate by blinker--one machine gunner didn't get the "hold fire" order, and another machine gun's ammunition "cooked off" because of its proximity to a large fire. Therefore, the torpedo boats' actions cannot be used as any evidence whatsoever of a conspiracy.

[petra10]

There was vidoe footage of the captain at a memorial service for the 30th aniversary.In it he spoke of wanting answers,there were lots of surviving crew members who wanted answers mainly why no one came to their aid.There was an aircraft carrier nearby.They also told how they all were giving medals and told not to talk about it.The only Israeli crew member to talk was a guy from a torpedo boat who said they knew it was an American ship

[parky76]

please provide a source for this israeli crew member.

is it not possible that the Liberty was spying on Israel, and Israel decided to send a message?

there really was no good reason for an American intelligence ship to be off the coast of Egypt during this war. I smell an Israeli AND and American cover up. Perhaps they were both in the wrong, and decided to mutually let it go.

[Gravy]

Some previous threads about this:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=12199
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=76069
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=71596

[gumboot]

The only Israeli crew member to talk was a guy from a torpedo boat who said they knew it was an American ship



Yes of course he knew it was an American ship. The Torpedo boats were sent there specifically to offer assistance after one of the pilots realised it was a US ship.

The torpedo boats only fired at the ship after the Americans fired at them first (see above).

The carrier was not nearby, the Phantoms launched could not have reached the ship in time, and because they were launched with nuclear weapons on board the act of launching them very nearly caused nuclear war.

-Gumboot

[petra10]

please provide a source for this israeli crew member.

is it not possible that the Liberty was spying on Israel, and Israel decided to send a message?

there really was no good reason for an American intelligence ship to be off the coast of Egypt during this war. I smell an Israeli AND and American cover up. Perhaps they were both in the wrong, and decided to mutually let it go.
it was a tv programme on bbc4 think it was just called The six day war.The crew members of the Libery were of the opinion of you that both countries were involved and agreed to let it go.These guys were sure they were just pawns to be used by the politics of the time.

[petra10]

Thanks gravy for the links to previous threads (just made me more curious).Still think the guys involved need better information for the powers that be.

[gumboot]

Thanks gravy for the links to previous threads (just made me more curious).Still think the guys involved need better information for the powers that be.

Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do & die...
-The Charge Of The Light Brigade

-Gumboot

[boloboffin]

Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do & die...
-The Charge Of The Light Brigade

-Gumboot

Are you being ironical-like?

[petra10]

true very true gumboot.i suppose they will just have to live with it.still i felt sorry for them it must be horrible to feel your life was expendable

[boloboffin]

true very true gumboot.i suppose they will just have to live with it.still i felt sorry for them it must be horrible to feel your life was expendable

Well, that is part of what being in the military is all about.

[SpitfireIX]

i felt sorry for them it must be horrible to feel your life was expendable


I imagine they are most upset about the loss of their comrades due to a purported accidental attack.

[MaGZ]

There has been a few tv programmes on about the six day war.Its the 40th aniversary.I knew about the liberty ship being hit by what was supposed to be by accident but this programme really made good points that the Israel knew that she was an American ship.Their main point being they wanted to draw America into the war by making them think the Egyptians were responsible.Just wondered what Americans think, was this a cover-up?

Americans believe in the Israeli version of events. We have to, because we are not able to think for ourselves.

[MaGZ]

Further, as her captain stated, the Liberty mistakenly opened fire on the torpedo boats while they were attempting to communicate by blinker--one machine gunner didn't get the "hold fire" order, and another machine gun's ammunition "cooked off" because of its proximity to a large fire. Therefore, the torpedo boats' actions cannot be used as any evidence whatsoever of a conspiracy.

In other words the Israelis are innocent.
It was just a big misunderstanding.

[SpitfireIX]

Americans believe in the Israeli version of events. We have to, because we are not able to think for ourselves. [emphasis added]


MaGZ, the fact that you can't think for yourself does not imply that no one else can, so please don't presume to speak for all Americans.

Also, you have failed to respond to my request to modify your statement about Other Losses.

[MaGZ]

There was vidoe footage of the captain at a memorial service for the 30th aniversary.In it he spoke of wanting answers,there were lots of surviving crew members who wanted answers mainly why no one came to their aid.There was an aircraft carrier nearby.They also told how they all were giving medals and told not to talk about it.The only Israeli crew member to talk was a guy from a torpedo boat who said they knew it was an American ship

Don’t your understand, this is America.

In America there is never any criticism of Israel.

[Par]

In other words the Israelis are innocent.
It was just a big misunderstanding.


You seem despondent and a little wistful. As if it just seems a little unfair that, again, there doesn’t appear to be any good evidence of nefarious play on the part of the Jews. Keep the dream alive though, hey?

[boloboffin]

Don’t your understand, this is America.

In America there is never any criticism of Israel.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are in America, right?

[MaGZ]

please provide a source for this israeli crew member.

is it not possible that the Liberty was spying on Israel, and Israel decided to send a message?

there really was no good reason for an American intelligence ship to be off the coast of Egypt during this war. I smell an Israeli AND and American cover up. Perhaps they were both in the wrong, and decided to mutually let it go.

That is a good approach, Parky. You're running good interference. They both were responsible for this tragedy. Somehow it was just the Americans that got killed.

[SpitfireIX]

In other words the Israelis are innocent.
It was just a big misunderstanding.


Israel's explanation that the USS Liberty was mistakenly classified as "unknown," and then misidentified by aerial reconnaisance, fits the observed facts.

The Israelis are presumed innocent of deliberately attacking Liberty. Anyone claiming the attack was deliberate has the burden of proof.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

there really was no good reason for an American intelligence ship to be off the coast of Egypt during this war.

Wrong.

A nation armed with the latest western equipment was going up against several opponents equipped with the latest soviet/warsaw pact gear.

The progress and outcome of the conflict would have had a significant impact on US/NATO planning for a possible conflict with the Soviet Union.

[MaGZ]

I imagine they are most upset about the loss of their comrades due to a purported accidental attack.

Just curious spitfire,
Do you think it all was just an accident?

[MaGZ]

Israel's explanation that the USS Liberty was mistakenly classified as "unknown," and then misidentified by aerial reconnaisance, fits the observed facts.

The Israelis are presumed innocent of deliberately attacking Liberty. Anyone claiming the attack was deliberate has the burden of proof.

Spitfire, the Israelis are always innocent. Name a time when they harmed America? The Pollard spy case?

[SpitfireIX]

Just curious spitfire,
Do you think it all was just an accident?


I think that's the most likely explanation, and I have yet to see a convincing motive advanced for the Israelis to have done it deliberately.

[SpitfireIX]

Spitfire, the Israelis are always innocent.


Straw man. I said the Israelis are entitled to a presumption of innocence. I never said they are innocent in all cases. Further, the claim that the attack was deliberate is an extraordinary claim, especially in the absence of a credible motive.

Name a time when they harmed America? The Pollard spy case?


The presumption of innocence applies in all cases. Iraq was entitled to a presumption that the attack on the USS Stark was accidental.

And whether America was significantly harmed by Pollard's actions is debatable.

Finally, by your logic, we'd better throughly investigate whether the US Navy deliberately sank the Ehime Maru (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehime_Maru_incident), considering the Navy's extensive history of deliberately sinking Japanese ships. :rolleyes:

[gumboot]

Are you being ironical-like?


Not entirely...

Military personnel have to suffer the consequences of their superiors' orders. Those consequences may include death, and this may be known at the time. Indeed, the officers themselves may know that they are ordering their subordinates to certain death.

If every military member had the right to a full explanation from their superiors for every incident and action they are directed to take, the military would not function.

When no assistance was sent to the USS Liberty and when no one was blamed, the crew of the ship have to accept that these decisions are in the best interests of the United States.

It is a given, when you join the military that your concerns are not important in the big scheme of things - indeed your life is not important. What is important is the interests and concerns of your nation.

-Gumboot

[fuelair]

please provide a source for this israeli crew member.

is it not possible that the Liberty was spying on Israel, and Israel decided to send a message?

there really was no good reason for an American intelligence ship to be off the coast of Egypt during this war. I smell an Israeli AND and American cover up. Perhaps they were both in the wrong, and decided to mutually let it go.
To put this as gently as I can, if it were/is ever proven that it was known as an American ship, whether it was spying on Israel or not, to the Israelis prior to or early in the attack I would have no further use for nor would I any longer support Israel in any way - nor would I support any US politician who did.
For those who have read other input of mine (except in other Liberty threads)
and find it odd, it isn't. If it had been known at the time it occurred I would have wanted Israel attacked immediately by Air Force and Navy even more than I was happy about Israel winning the Six-Day war without that cloud.

By the by - there is a good reason for American intelligence gathering systems to be wherever they wish outside the US.

[parky76]

And that good reason is?

By the way, if solid evidence does indeed come out one day that Israel clearly knew the identity of the ship as American, and attacked it anyways, that may be the end of the special Israel-American relationship.

[WildCat]

And that good reason is?

By the way, if solid evidence does indeed come out one day that Israel clearly knew the identity of the ship as American, and attacked it anyways, that may be the end of the special Israel-American relationship.
In 1967 there was no "special relationship" between Israel and the US. IMHO, this fact is why the Liberty incident seems to have been given new life in recent years - people think that we were attacked by a close ally. Wasn't the case in 1967.

My take on this incident - and it is just my opinion - is that the attack was deliberate (not accidental) because the Israelies feared that the US was going to provide intelligence to Egypt. The Libertyy was a spy ship after all, and the US was fearful that Egypt was getting too close to the Soviets. Israeli fears that the US would provide the Egyptians with military intelligence was not unthinkable at the time, given that the US was eager to wrest them away from Soviet influences during the peak of the Cold War.

I think it is obvious that the Liberty was there to spy, and was in a sensitive area in a war zone. Afterwards, the whole thing was hushed up because diplomatic niceties outweighed the deaths of the crew in the eyes of the powers that be. So Israel claims it weas a mistake, the US officially accepts that and doesn't have to explain what the Liberty was actually doing there.

My $0.02

[Zep]

We doing this one again??

I'm just waiting for the so-called evidence of "badly botched photos", etc, etc.

[Travis]

I once found a website that did a good job of breaking down the whole situation with the misidentification's and such that basically resulted in one gigantic FUBAR situation for all sides involved. If anyone knows of it a link would be nice but I'm gonna endeavor to relocate it myself.


Also all discussion about it needs to take into account that this was not some regular Navy ship. This was an intelligence ship and that changes everything in terms of how both countries would treat and respond to the situation diplomatically.

[Alareth]

We doing this one again??

I'm just waiting for the so-called evidence of "badly botched photos", etc, etc.

Oh dear, I hope this doesn't turn into a David Carmichael summoning ceremony ...

[Zep]

Oh dear, I hope this doesn't turn into a David Carmichael summoning ceremony ...NOOOOOOOO!! :jaw-dropp

[Travis]

How much $$$ was he offering up to find things he clearly missed in that photo? $200 wasn't it?

ETA: Did a search and looked up that it was $500. Then saw that Gravy had nicely already provided links to it. Doh!

[Zep]

Do you need the cash?

[Travis]

Do you need the cash?

I believe Gumboot very nicely met all conditions of his challenge already.


If you're just offering up $500 though I'm not above taking it. I'm not above most things...... wow I can't believe I admitted that. Anyways it's been awhile since I went on a DVD shopping spree at Best Buy.:D :cool:

[Zep]

I believe Gumboot very nicely met all conditions of his challenge already.


If you're just offering up $500 though I'm not above taking it. I'm not above most things...... wow I can't believe I admitted that. Anyways it's been awhile since I went on a DVD shopping spree at Best Buy.:D :cool:No no! You misunderstand! I just wondered if you were after immediate cash, because David Carmichael's offer was a lay-down gimme if you needed some.

[Travis]

No no! You misunderstand! I just wondered if you were after immediate cash, because David Carmichael's offer was a lay-down gimme if you needed some.

If I remember the thread correctly he kept moving goalposts on what would qualify for meeting his demands to win the cash. Not surprising really.

[westprog]

Straw man. I said the Israelis are entitled to a presumption of innocence. I never said they are innocent in all cases. Further, the claim that the attack was deliberate is an extraordinary claim, especially in the absence of a credible motive.


Saying that the Israelis attacked the ship by accident doesn't mean that they were entirely innocent. It just means that it wasn't part of some big scheme designed to lure the USA into the war. As with other incidents where ships and planes have been accidentally destroyed, there may have been a reckless failure to identify the target.

This isn't as satisfactory as a clear cut decision to do something for a reason. CT's will always favour organisation over chaos, and certainty over ignorance.

[SpitfireIX]

Saying that the Israelis attacked the ship by accident doesn't mean that they were entirely innocent. It just means that it wasn't part of some big scheme designed to lure the USA into the war. As with other incidents where ships and planes have been accidentally destroyed, there may have been a reckless failure to identify the target.


Which is why, in my original quote, I said, "innocent of deliberately attacking."

[fuelair]

And that good reason is?

.

Because the US needs the best possible knowledge it can get on the activities/abilities of all other countries/agencies, etc. What world do you live in where you do not need constant up-to-date data on things that affect or may affect you?

[MaGZ]

I think that's the most likely explanation, and I have yet to see a convincing motive advanced for the Israelis to have done it deliberately.

In other words, just a big misunderstanding.

[MaGZ]

Not entirely...

Military personnel have to suffer the consequences of their superiors' orders. Those consequences may include death, and this may be known at the time. Indeed, the officers themselves may know that they are ordering their subordinates to certain death.

If every military member had the right to a full explanation from their superiors for every incident and action they are directed to take, the military would not function.

When no assistance was sent to the USS Liberty and when no one was blamed, the crew of the ship have to accept that these decisions are in the best interests of Israel.

It is a given, when you join the military that your concerns are not important in the big scheme of things - indeed your life is not important. What is important is the interests and concerns of your nation.

-Gumboot

corrected

MaGZ, it's not civil to misquote other posters. Don't do that. For the record, Gumboot's original post is #28, it should read "United States" instead of "Israel".

[Par]

Americans believe in the Israeli version of events. We have to, because we are not able to think for ourselves.

In other words the Israelis are innocent. It was just a big misunderstanding.

Don’t your understand, this is America. In America there is never any criticism of Israel.

They both were responsible for this tragedy. Somehow it was just the Americans that got killed.

[T]he Israelis are always innocent. Name a time when they harmed America?

In other words, just a big misunderstanding.



Repeatedly posting sneering comments is all very well and good, but do you actually have any reason to believe that it wasn’t just a misunderstanding?

[MaGZ]

And that good reason is?

By the way, if solid evidence does indeed come out one day that Israel clearly knew the identity of the ship as American, and attacked it anyways, that may be the end of the special Israel-American relationship.

The realization by the American public that Israel was responsible for the anthrax attacks would have the same affect.

[gumboot]

corrected


Reported.

-Gumboot

[MaGZ]

In 1967 there was no "special relationship" between Israel and the US. IMHO, this fact is why the Liberty incident seems to have been given new life in recent years - people think that we were attacked by a close ally. Wasn't the case in 1967.

My take on this incident - and it is just my opinion - is that the attack was deliberate (not accidental) because the Israelies feared that the US was going to provide intelligence to Egypt. The Libertyy was a spy ship after all, and the US was fearful that Egypt was getting too close to the Soviets. Israeli fears that the US would provide the Egyptians with military intelligence was not unthinkable at the time, given that the US was eager to wrest them away from Soviet influences during the peak of the Cold War.

I think it is obvious that the Liberty was there to spy, and was in a sensitive area in a war zone. Afterwards, the whole thing was hushed up because diplomatic niceties outweighed the deaths of the crew in the eyes of the powers that be. So Israel claims it weas a mistake, the US officially accepts that and doesn't have to explain what the Liberty was actually doing there.

My $0.02

I am frankly surprised you would admit the attack on the USS Liberty was deliberate.

[MaGZ]

I once found a website that did a good job of breaking down the whole situation with the misidentification's and such that basically resulted in one gigantic FUBAR situation for all sides involved. If anyone knows of it a link would be nice but I'm gonna endeavor to relocate it myself.


Also all discussion about it needs to take into account that this was not some regular Navy ship. This was an intelligence ship and that changes everything in terms of how both countries would treat and respond to the situation diplomatically.

So the USS Liberty was an intelligence ship. In your oppinion which was it, a gigantic FUBAR situation or a deliberate attack?

[Darth Rotor]

I am frankly surprised you would admit the attack on the USS Liberty was deliberate.
WIldcat's is a plausible explanation. The Israeli government never "opened the kimono" with a full disclosure, there was the matter of the IAF pilot who changed his story, and if you read the Ennis' book, the numerous attack runs were close enough for the pilots to see an American flag. (I have photo rigged ships from a similar distance, and I can tell you from first hand experience, flags are discernable with the unaided eye.

Be that as it may, this is all mitigated by the Israeli government's admission that

"Uh, we did it" and their payment of reparations, etc, in reasonably good faith.

Note that one of Saddam Hussein's pilots mistakenly attacked the USS Stark, in 1987, and he fessed to the screw up rather quickly. Reagan accepted the mea culpa. Having been in the US Navy, on active duty at the time, I will tell you that my emotional reaction was to that incident was powerful. When the 1991 war went down, I noted in a letter to my Dad that "USS Stark was now avenged."

Dad's remark was "That wasn't why we went to war."

Politicians lie, yes. Some command and control mistakes were made on the US side of Liberty, and the political reaction was hardly scintillating. The big problem in 1967 was the USSR. Remember? I do.

I agree with Admiral Moorer's observation: the US government didn't do right by their sailors, for political reasons. The same reason we didn't bomb North Korea for taking the Pueblo.

DR

[MaGZ]

Saying that the Israelis attacked the ship by accident doesn't mean that they were entirely innocent. It just means that it wasn't part of some big scheme designed to lure the USA into the war. As with other incidents where ships and planes have been accidentally destroyed, there may have been a reckless failure to identify the target.

This isn't as satisfactory as a clear cut decision to do something for a reason. CT's will always favour organisation over chaos, and certainty over ignorance.

I don’t think Israel wanted war with the US when they attacked the Liberty. They just knew they could get away with it without any consequences–which they did.

Ditto the anthrax attacks.

[JimBenArm]

I don’t think Israel wanted war with the US when they attacked the Liberty. They just knew they could get away with it without any consequences–which they did.

Ditto the anthrax attacks.
Really?

[MaGZ]

Repeatedly posting sneering comments is all very well and good, but do you actually have any reason to believe that it wasn’t just a misunderstanding?

The survivors of the Liberty know it was a deliberate attack.
You are familiar with the book Assault on the Liberty by James M. Ennes Jr. ?

[MaGZ]

Reported.

-Gumboot

Sorry Gumboot,
Someone had did the same to me in one of my posts.
I should have made my point in another way.

[gumboot]

WIldcat's is a plausible explanation. The Israeli government never "opened the kimono" with a full disclosure, there was the matter of the IAF pilot who changed his story, and if you read the Ennis' book, the numerous attack runs were close enough for the pilots to see an American flag. (I have photo rigged ships from a similar distance, and I can tell you from first hand experience, flags are discernable with the unaided eye.



There's debate over what flag the USS Liberty was flying at the commencement of the attacks.

I don't know which IAF pilot you're referring to, but one of the people who allegedly came forward claiming to be an IAF pilot who was court martialled for refusing to attack the Liberty has since denied ever making this claim, and records suggest he was never a pilot in the IAF at all.

-Gumboot

[SpitfireIX]

The survivors of the Liberty know it was a deliberate attack.
You are familiar with the book Assault on the Liberty by James M. Ennes Jr. ?


The survivors (including Ennes) can't possibly know that. Many of them believe it, but their belief does not constititute any kind of proof.

[sackett]

The Liberty is old, sad stuff, MagGZ.

I want to hear all about those anthrax attacks.

[Firestone]

The Liberty is old, sad stuff, MagGZ.

I want to hear all about those anthrax attacks.I'm not sure you want to hear all about those anthrax attacks.

But here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=74055) it is, anyway.

You will note that (as usual) MaGZ doesn't provide the slightest evidence, just the usual "Israel did it because ... well, because they did it".

[sackett]

I'm not sure you want to hear all about those anthrax attacks.

But here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=74055) it is, anyway.

You will note that (as usual) MaGZ doesn't provide the slightest evidence, just the usual "Israel did it because ... well, because they did it".

I just had to ask, didn't I? Ugh.

So: After all those refutations, MaGZ still maintains that teh juize mailed the anthrax. For him, it's an ironclad cinch; no more facts needed; case closed; QED.

MaGZ: Now tell us about Hugh of Lincoln.

[MaGZ]

The Liberty is old, sad stuff, MagGZ.

I want to hear all about those anthrax attacks.

If you have a specific question about the anthrax attacks? ask

[MaGZ]

I just had to ask, didn't I? Ugh.

So: After all those refutations, MaGZ still maintains that teh juize mailed the anthrax. For him, it's an ironclad cinch; no more facts needed; case closed; QED.

MaGZ: Now tell us about Hugh of Lincoln.

You might find it here:

http://www.jabpage.org/posts/brrev.html

[Free Thinkr]

I agree with Admiral Moorer's observation: the US government didn't do right by their sailors, for political reasons. The same reason we didn't bomb North Korea for taking the Pueblo.

DR
What? NK has a Joooooo lobby as well?! :eek:

[Free Thinkr]

You might find it here:

http://www.jabpage.org/posts/brrev.html
You have to love when a source is exposed as anti-semitic without even reading it. The top of the page reads: "From National Vanguard Books"

[sackett]

You might find it here:

http://www.jabpage.org/posts/brrev.html

Man, you are way crazier than I thought.

[SpitfireIX]

You might find it here:

http://www.jabpage.org/posts/brrev.html
http://www.thedailyblitz.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/kitler199.jpg

[Free Thinkr]

On the bright side, I got a good chuckle out of the book-cover in that link. Every once in a while, hateful propaganda reaches a point of ridiculousness where my usual anger fades away and is replaced with amusement and wonder at the level of stupidity on display.

[beachnut]

You might find it here:

http://www.jabpage.org/posts/brrev.html
Neo NAZI junk. Find a real source.

[Travis]

So the USS Liberty was an intelligence ship. In your oppinion which was it, a gigantic FUBAR situation or a deliberate attack?

In my opinion it was a gigantic FUBAR situation.