Medical tourist

[mr rosewater]

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkyJmZnYmVs N2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk3MTQ5OTA3



New Jersey hospitals struggle with no payments

These are cases like the 67-year-old woman from the Dominican Republic who arrived "near death" at Holy Name in 2005 and would spend the next 401 days as a patient there.

The woman had suffered head trauma, a broken hip and other serious injuries in a mo-ped accident in her native country, Hersh said.

The woman's son, a Cliffside Park resident, was frantic to save her life. He pooled money with his relatives and from his credit cards and accompanied his mother on the trip to New Jersey.

"She was not breathing well and could not sit up," Hersh said. "The condition we received her in ... we don't know how he did it."

She arrived with wires hanging out of her hip from an orthopedic surgery. She was unresponsive, had dangerously low blood pressure and a potentially lethal heart arrhythmia. She was in extreme kidney failure.

In the intensive care unit, at least 12 specialists treated her, including an orthopedist, cardiologist, vascular surgeon and infectious disease expert. She needed several surgeries. For months, she was unresponsive from the brain injury.

Her bill would eventually reach $1.9 million. Medicaid would pay just $78,000, hospital officials said.

On the one-year anniversary of her arrival, she made a "miraculous" recovery, Hersh recalled.

He found her sitting up in a chair, even wearing lipstick.

"I spoke to her in Spanish and said, 'It's nice to meet you. Now it's time to go,' " he said, laughing.

Hospital social workers talked to the son about making discharge arrangements. But the son shared a one-bedroom apartment with six people. He said he had no room for his mother.

He also said he had no money.

Holy Name paid for her flight home.

[ponderingturtle]

What is your point?

[headscratcher4]

Wow...the hospital, once it realized that she was going to be a big case, should have pooled its money and sent her to Thailand.

[mr rosewater]

What is your point?

Are you from New Jersey?

[Charlie Monoxide]

Wouldn't it had been less costly and more effective to get her to Cuba?

Charlie (they keep Castro alive) Monoxide

[ponderingturtle]

Are you from New Jersey?

So what?

This is the model of heath care that the United States decided on. One where you have to treat people with out regard for their ability to pay in a life threatening situation, but also one with no guaranties of payment in such a situation.

This is just stirring up resentment against foreigners, when a great many Americans do exactly the same thing, because that is the only option that they really have.

[Ziggurat]

Charlie (they keep Castro alive) Monoxide

Rumor has it that Spanish doctors were the ones who kept him alive after Cuban doctors botched his initial surgery.

[headscratcher4]

Rumor has it that Spanish doctors were the ones who kept him alive after Cuban doctors botched his initial surgery.

All the more reason to do patient dumping in Cuba?

[mr rosewater]

One hospital executive considered suing an Egyptian doctor who delivered her baby in a Bergen County hospital with no intention of paying the bill. In what hospital officials described as a final act of chutzpah, the woman demanded the hospital provide a free checkup for her newborn before she would fly home.


Chutzpah!!! lol

[BPSCG]

This is just stirring up resentment against foreigners, when a great many Americans do exactly the same thing, because that is the only option that they really have.You mean Americans get life-threatening illnesses or injuries and decide to fly off to some other country and get extensive free treatment?

Who knew?

If that's the case, why do we even have to bother with Medicaid? Joe Shlub comes into the ER with chest pains, just ship him off to Toronto and the Canadians will be happy to treat him. We'd save billions!

[ponderingturtle]

You mean Americans get life-threatening illnesses or injuries and decide to fly off to some other country and get extensive free treatment?

That is the whole thing about buying drugs in canada after all. Unamerican Bastards, they should know that massive profits for drug companies are the most important part of the american health system as why else would it have been banned?

If that's the case, why do we even have to bother with Medicaid? Joe Shlub comes into the ER with chest pains, just ship him off to Toronto and the Canadians will be happy to treat him. We'd save billions!
Evidence that this is some plan by any goverment?

And yes that would work, if these people went to canada they would not even have the bills chasing them.

[mr rosewater]

Evidence that this is some plan by any government?

And yes that would work, if these people went to Canada they would not even have the bills chasing them.



The point is these people don't have anything chasing them, there is no bill, and certainly no payment!

Do you think their home government is behind this?

[BPSCG]

You mean Americans get life-threatening illnesses or injuries and decide to fly off to some other country and get extensive free treatment? That is the whole thing about buying drugs in canada after all. Unamerican Bastards, they should know that massive profits for drug companies are the most important part of the american health system as why else would it have been banned?You didn't answer the question. Does Canada's health care system allow anyone anywhere in the world to just show up one day and say, "Hi, I need heart bypass surgery and I can't get it in my country because the health care there stinks plus I can't afford it. How soon can you fit me in?"

[ponderingturtle]

You didn't answer the question. Does Canada's health care system allow anyone anywhere in the world to just show up one day and say, "Hi, I need heart bypass surgery and I can't get it in my country because the health care there stinks plus I can't afford it. How soon can you fit me in?"

Looking at it, it looks like it would work about like it does here, you get treated and bills that you can likely ignore.

The whole problem seems to be that people are valueing human lives to much relative to money. What a strange mistake for the legislators to make.

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

You didn't answer the question. Does Canada's health care system allow anyone anywhere in the world to just show up one day and say, "Hi, I need heart bypass surgery and I can't get it in my country because the health care there stinks plus I can't afford it. How soon can you fit me in?"


I'm not sure what the official rules are, but if you're dying, they will give you treatment. However, it may be just to stabilise you so that you can be moved. Not sure Canada Customs would let you in if you were obviously in medical distress. They'd probably call an ambulance and have you moved to an American hospital, unless a Canadian hospital is closer.


I often wondered what would happen if I traveled in the United States and needed medical care and then just left without paying the bill. Legally, what could the hospital do? Collection agency? Pester the Minister of Health?

[ponderingturtle]

I often wondered what would happen if I traveled in the United States and needed medical care and then just left without paying the bill. Legally, what could the hospital do? Collection agency? Pester the Minister of Health?

Very little, medical bills are very easy to ignore, much of the american system of health care is built on that fact.

[mr rosewater]

The whole problem seems to be that people are valuing human lives to much relative to money. What a strange mistake for the legislators to make.



Members of a wealthy Middle Eastern family have routinely flown to New Jersey to have their babies at Hackensack, said Marianne Auriemma, an attorney who represented one of the family members in a divorce case.

"They have their babies on charity care," she said. "The father drives a Mercedes


Yes we value human life, and world hates us.

[BPSCG]

Very little, medical bills are very easy to ignore, much of the american system of health care is built on that fact.Could you explain what you mean by this bizarre statement?

[mr rosewater]

Very little, medical bills are very easy to ignore, much of the american system of health care is built on that fact.

That is absolute bull if you are a U.S. citizen.

[Darth Rotor]

Looking at it, it looks like it would work about like it does here, you get treated and bills that you can likely ignore.

The whole problem seems to be that people are valueing human lives to much relative to money. What a strange mistake for the legislators to make.
Health care is not an abstract principle, but a process that requires resources and costs something to undertake. Valuing human lives is an abstract principle, however noble. Having a noble principle does not pay the rent, nor the doctor's bills.

DR

[ponderingturtle]

Members of a wealthy Middle Eastern family have routinely flown to New Jersey to have their babies at Hackensack, said Marianne Auriemma, an attorney who represented one of the family members in a divorce case.

"They have their babies on charity care," she said. "The father drives a Mercedes


Yes we value human life, and world hates us.

This would seem more like an issue of citizenship than money, how much does having a baby cost on average?

[ponderingturtle]

Could you explain what you mean by this bizarre statement?

People think it is bad for people to die of preventable illness, so they simply force doctors to treat them, ignoreing their ability to pay. That is the law. If doctors and hospitals could ignore the patients ability to pay, well getting people dumped outside of hospitals to die on the street of preventable causes would upset enough people that they would change the system.

So the system we decided on is only acceptable because of how you can dodge medical bills.

[ponderingturtle]

That is absolute bull if you are a U.S. citizen.

Nope. You want to know what the difference between an ER and a vending machine for narcotics is? You have to put money in the vending machine.

There are lots of Americans who use ER's as their main form of medical treatment, and don't pay.

You are simply ignorant.

[Madalch]

And yes that would work, if these people went to canada they would not even have the bills chasing them.
Untrue. Only people who pay into their provincial health plan get coverage. Foreigners get bills.

[ponderingturtle]

Health care is not an abstract principle, but a process that requires resources and costs something to undertake. Valuing human lives is an abstract principle, however noble. Having a noble principle does not pay the rent, nor the doctor's bills.

DR

So what? Patients are not required to either. An interesting case is philiadelphia that is haveing many maternity wards close because the local population simply isn't paying their bills. So they lose money.

The result is that they are planning a new law to make it illegal to close a ward of a hospital with out state permission, so they are forcing the hospitals to keep open departments that only cost money.

link (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/05/22/eveningnews/main2838331.shtml)

So the way we deal with problems is to force people to ignore payment not actualy pay for things.

[ponderingturtle]

Untrue. Only people who pay into their provincial health plan get coverage. Foreigners get bills.

And they can ignore them I am sure just like in america.

[mr rosewater]

So the system we decided on is only acceptable because of how you can dodge medical bills.


The people dodging them most are medical tourist, and illegals, if your a U.S. citizen you get a bill, and if you don't pay it a collection agency will look you up.

[Madalch]

I seem to recall reading about a woman who gave birth in a Spanish hospital while on vacation, with insufficient medical coverage (maybe the company claimed it was a pre-existing condition). The hospital kept the kid until she coughed up.

I make no claim of the veracity (voracity for you AFUista) of this- I suspect I read it in "News of the Weird" or something like that.

[mr rosewater]

Nope.


You are simply ignorant.

New Jersey's 80 hospitals spend an estimated $300 million annually to treat illegal aliens, Czajkowski said. In return, they received $5 million in aid from the federal government.


Stop attempting to insult me.

[ponderingturtle]

New Jersey's 80 hospitals spend an estimated $300 million annually to treat illegal aliens, Czajkowski said. In return, they received $5 million in aid from the federal government.


Stop attempting to insult me.

Wow. talk about irrelevant issues. The illegal aliens are likely not medical tourists, but workers.

As for total in unpaid hospital bills in NJ it was $815 million in 1990 source (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9C0CE0D8103DF93BA25751C1A966958260)

So the problem would seem to be a general structural issue in our economy as so many of the poor simply can't pay medical bills and so many illegal aliens are part of the working poor.

This isn't medical tourism though, it is how we have structured out economy and medical establishment. Most of them are not coming here for the health care but for the work, and when here they get hurt, so they are now medical tourists?

[ponderingturtle]

The people dodging them most are medical tourist, and illegals, if your a U.S. citizen you get a bill, and if you don't pay it a collection agency will look you up.

And that is only a worry if you have assets worth attacking.

[mr rosewater]

Wow. talk about irrelevant issues. The illegal aliens are likely not medical tourists, but workers.

As for total in unpaid hospital bills in NJ it was $815 million in 1990 source (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9C0CE0D8103DF93BA25751C1A966958260)

So the problem would seem to be a general structural issue in our economy as so many of the poor simply can't pay medical bills and so many illegal aliens are part of the working poor.

This isn't medical tourism though, it is how we have structured out economy and medical establishment. Most of them are not coming here for the health care but for the work, and when here they get hurt, so they are now medical tourists?




So you say you don't live in New Jersey?

[ponderingturtle]

So you say you don't live in New Jersey?

I would never live in NJ, I only live in states where you can turn left while driving.

[mr rosewater]

Wow. talk about irrelevant issues. The illegal aliens are likely not medical tourists, but workers.

So the problem would seem to be a general structural issue in our economy as so many of the poor simply can't pay medical bills and so many illegal aliens are part of the working poor.

Illegal what does this mean?

[skeptifem]

Wow. talk about irrelevant issues. The illegal aliens are likely not medical tourists, but workers.




what does that mean exactly?


and I dont see why illegal aliens are not likely to be medical tourists- having no valid identification makes it nearly impossible to collect on the debt/track down the debtors. And with how expensive medical care is w/o insurance and the (on average) poor financial standing of illegal immigrants- well, I doubt many of them pay out of the goodness of their hearts.

[ponderingturtle]

Illegal what does this mean?

That they have no human rights?

You keep moving the goal posts, you have changed from medical tourists coming here for medical treatment to, imigrants come here for work, and when here do what everyone who is in the same ecconomic status does, go to the ER as their primary care provider and not pay medical bills.

It is a mark that they are intergrating into our culture really.

[ponderingturtle]

what does that mean exactly?


and I dont see why illegal aliens are not likely to be medical tourists- having no valid identification makes it nearly impossible to collect on the debt/track down the debtors. And with how expensive medical care is w/o insurance and the (on average) poor financial standing of illegal immigrants- well, I doubt many of them pay out of the goodness of their hearts.

The point is why they are here. Likely for most it is for work not for medical care. If you claim that most of those Illegal Immigrants are here for medical care well please show your evidence.

[mr rosewater]

The point is why they are here. Likely for most it is for work not for medical care. If you claim that most of those Illegal Immigrants are here for medical care well please show your evidence.

Does a hospital even ask if you are legal or illegal, or a medical tourist?

[ponderingturtle]

Does a hospital even ask if you are legal or illegal, or a medical tourist?

Why? They would not be allowed to act on any answer anyway. Remember that ability to pay is not something they can take into account when treating life threatening conditions, so no dumping people onto the street to die because they can't affort treatment.

[slingblade]

Very little, medical bills are very easy to ignore, much of the american system of health care is built on that fact.


Or they can sell the account to a credit collection agency, which then sues and forces the respondent into bankruptcy.


:boxedin:

[mr rosewater]

Or they can sell the account to a credit collection agency, which then sues and forces the respondent into bankruptcy.


:boxedin:

Or if you have any kind of saving or checking account with even a small amount of money, they can get a judgement against you and seize them.

[mr rosewater]

That they have no human rights?



Not in their home country!

[Alt+F4]

Why? They would not be allowed to act on any answer anyway. Remember that ability to pay is not something they can take into account when treating life threatening conditions, so no dumping people onto the street to die because they can't affort treatment.

What happens in other countries? Do doctors, hospitals refuse to treat foreigners who can't pay?

[mr rosewater]

What happens in other countries? Do doctors, hospitals refuse to treat foreigners who can't pay?

And yet in;

In Bergen County, you can get half a million dollars worth of cancer care for the price of a $500 plane ticket," the official said.

I guess that would depend on the country, and I know personally I would expect a bill.

[ponderingturtle]

And yet in;

In Bergen County, you can get half a million dollars worth of cancer care for the price of a $500 plane ticket," the official said.

I guess that would depend on the country, and I know personally I would expect a bill.

They are being billed, it is that they don't have enough assets to take to make it worth it to try to go to the natives court system. The international nature of it adds to the cost to get any money and they likely don't have enough to make it worth while.

As for the illegal immigrants why shouldn't we be proud that they as assimilating to the way health care works in America?

[ponderingturtle]

Or if you have any kind of saving or checking account with even a small amount of money, they can get a judgement against you and seize them.

Yes, and people should know not to get illnesses beyond their means. That is the real problem here.

[mr rosewater]

As for the illegal immigrants why shouldn't we be proud that they as assimilating to the way health care works in America?

Yes milking Americans.

The state recently increased it's sales tax. This little scheme is to finance property tax relief which the state mails out two months before each election. The Governor is pushing the sale or lease of the parkway, and turnpike both toll roads. This cockamamie scheme is an attempt to cover an underfunding in the state workers pension plan, some 30 billion short! But in typical New Jersey style this scheme which could bring in between 5-15 billion is being offered as a quick fix for every financial problem we have.

Well it would seem illegals may not be helping our economy in New Jersey.
Maybe we can encourage them to move to New York.

[mr rosewater]

Wow. talk about irrelevant issues.

As for total in unpaid hospital bills in NJ it was $815 million in 1990 source (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9C0CE0D8103DF93BA25751C1A966958260)



Wow, talk about irrelevant!

[TriangleMan]

What happens in other countries? Do doctors, hospitals refuse to treat foreigners who can't pay?
In Qatar I believe a public hospital will take patients in distress regardless of whether or not they can pay.

mr rosewater, do you have some suggestions on how this issue could be remedied, or are you implying that US hospitals should simply refuse to treat foreigners in distress who can't pay?

[ponderingturtle]

Wow, talk about irrelevant!

Wrong, it was an attempt to determine what portion of unpaid hospital bills are attributable to illegal immigrants instead of Proper American Citizens. Not that high.

[mr rosewater]

In Qatar I believe a public hospital will take patients in distress regardless of whether or not they can pay.

mr rosewater, do you have some suggestions on how this issue could be remedied, or are you implying that US hospitals should simply refuse to treat foreigners in distress who can't pay?

Pay the bill, what else.

Mindful that U.S. emergency rooms must take all comers, these medical tourists head from the airport straight to the hospital -- sometimes armed with CT scans and doctor's notes. As soon as they're well, they're back on the plane home.

These are not cases of tourist who take ill while on holiday. In the case of illegals its a failure of the federal government to control immigration and individual states are being stuck with the bill.

My state is currently having serious financial trouble, the new budget proposes 716 million for "charity care" subsidies for hospitals. Hundreds of millions for illegals and medical tourist, and these subsidies are not enough to cover the true cost.

I'm simply attempting to bring the issue into the light.

In the case of medical tourist, and illegals, why are their home countries failing them?

[ponderingturtle]

These are not cases of tourist who take ill while on holiday. In the case of illegals its a failure of the federal government to control immigration and individual states are being stuck with the bill.


If they where legal this situation would be the same. Why are you blameing the immigrants and not the employiers who are not giving them health insurance?

They are here for jobs that do not provide health insurance or enough money to afford it. Why shouldn't the people who create such jobs be blamed as well?

I know it is their fault for choosing to be poor and then choosing to get sick, so I guess you really can't blame anyone else.

[mr rosewater]

If they where legal this situation would be the same. Why are you blameing the immigrants and not the employiers who are not giving them health insurance?

They are here for jobs that do not provide health insurance or enough money to afford it. Why shouldn't the people who create such jobs be blamed as well?

I know it is their fault for choosing to be poor and then choosing to get sick, so I guess you really can't blame anyone else.

Why are their home countries failing them?, and why do you give them a free pass?, and why should I have to pay the bill?

[ponderingturtle]

Why are their home countries failing them?, and why do you give them a free pass?, and why should I have to pay the bill?

Because you are part of the economy employing them. Now sure workers at walmart don't deserve medical care either I am sure, why should you have to pay for them either?

[mr rosewater]

Because you are part of the economy employing them. Now sure workers at walmart don't deserve medical care either I am sure, why should you have to pay for them either?

What does walmart, or people that are citizens have to do with people that entered the country illegally? Does the U.S. have the right to control legal immigration, so we can control these cost, and wages?

I don't employ illegals, and I have no problem with other citizens making a living wage.

[joobie]

An interesting case is philiadelphia that is haveing many maternity wards close because the local population simply isn't paying their bills.

this is complete and total bullploppy.

the reason that many of the maternity wards in philadelphia and the surrounding area are closing is because it is far more profitable for hspitals to use those rooms for cardiac care or some other condition they consider serious enough.

btw, that's not even the stated reason why these wards are closing - the reason given is increasing malpractice costs.

[TriangleMan]

Mindful that U.S. emergency rooms must take all comers, these medical tourists head from the airport straight to the hospital -- sometimes armed with CT scans and doctor's notes. As soon as they're well, they're back on the plane home.

These are not cases of tourist who take ill while on holiday. In the case of illegals its a failure of the federal government to control immigration and individual states are being stuck with the bill.
If someone gets on a plane, lands in the US, and goes through customs and passport control -- how are they 'illegal'? Aren't they in the country legally, even if just on a tourist visa?

Anyway I'm not debating your frustration that people are flying in to take advantage of the US health care system and leaving tax payers with the bill, but I don't think most of those 'medical tourists' are in the country illegally so they shouldn't be lumped in with migrants looking for a better life in the US.

BTW, Qatar gets around this somewhat by requiring most foreigners to have a visa before they land in the country, like the US, but if they are over a certain age must have a medical test done as part of the visa application. I have Indian colleagues for whom getting a visa for their elderly parents to visit them is a real hassle. Apparantly the Gulf countries were having a similar problem, workers from places like Pakistan and India were bringing their parents over when one of them became ill so that they could get treatment at local hospitals. I'm assuming these measures have dealt with the issue to some degree. Maybe you could suggest something similar to your local politicians.

[ponderingturtle]

What does walmart, or people that are citizens have to do with people that entered the country illegally? Does the U.S. have the right to control legal immigration, so we can control these cost, and wages?

I don't employ illegals, and I have no problem with other citizens making a living wage.

But you are part of an economy and medical system that has decided that it will not pay everyone a living wage, and that people deserve emergency or life saving medical care regardless of ability to pay.

Illegal immigrants are coming here for the lowest jobs around, as we support jobs that are not given health insurance or a living wage. And as I have pointed out proper American citizens are by far a larger proportion of people not paying medical bills than illegal aliens or medical tourists.

All they have is the advantage of not having assets to go after, which is really something anyone can attain if you think about it.

[ponderingturtle]

this is complete and total bullploppy.

the reason that many of the maternity wards in philadelphia and the surrounding area are closing is because it is far more profitable for hspitals to use those rooms for cardiac care or some other condition they consider serious enough.

btw, that's not even the stated reason why these wards are closing - the reason given is increasing malpractice costs.

And they could just raise their rates if people where paying. And you should also note that only half the bill is paid by Medicaid, so if the other half is unpaid then that would be a bit of a problem now wouldn't it? And that is why they are closing. They lose money, because of the expenses involved such as malpractice costs and because of non payment. If payment was done, then they would not be losing money, as not all of the maternity wards are hit, just the ones that get lots of poorer patients. If you have patients who can afford to pay their bills, it is much easier to not lose money.