10 year old boy's dying wish - kill a bear

[nemo]

http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/us/2007/06/11/wolfe.boys.last.bear.hunt.wxia

I just don't get it. Maybe someone can explain this to me.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Killing things makes you a man.

[Miss Anthrope]

While I'm no fan of trophy hunting, I've no admiration for people who despise hunting if they eat meat.

[Tony]

While I'm no fan of trophy hunting, I've no admiration for people who despise hunting if they eat meat.

I'd hazard to guess that the vast maority of Americans have a bear-meat free diet.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Maybe he was just excercising his Second Ammendment right to bear arms.

:duck:

[Thitical Crinker]

http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/us/2007/06/11/wolfe.boys.last.bear.hunt.wxia

I just don't get it. Maybe someone can explain this to me.

What is there to explain? A dying boy wanted to go bear hunting before he died. His wish was fulfilled. Personally, I would have opted for an elk hunt.

[bigred]

While I'm no fan of trophy hunting, I've no admiration for people who despise hunting if they eat meat.
....or pork rinds...or chicken soup...or own anything w/leather in it...or.........

I don't get why this is so hard to grasp either. Seems to me it's a "I find killing animals repulsive so I'll get on my high horse and diss a dying child" thing.

Personally I'd say that nature can easily absorb the loss and many bears have died for less worthy causes.

[ConspiRaider]

http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/us/2007/06/11/wolfe.boys.last.bear.hunt.wxia

I just don't get it. Maybe someone can explain this to me.
I know what you mean.

Of course, not the boy's fault. Somebody told him that shooting a bear was a fine achievement, a fulfilling goal. Since the boy had to die - a bear had to die as well. That's just odd.

It's a strange world. That bear-killing adventure cost these parents hundreds, maybe thousands of dollars.

Meanwhile, in Cambodia, parents are selling their young daughters into sexual slavery - never to be seen again - for as little as $10. Just so the family doesn't starve to death for a little while longer.

Hard to believe we're talking about the same species on the same planet.

[Miss Anthrope]

I'd hazard to guess that the vast maority of Americans have a bear-meat free diet.

Hmmmm.... (http://www.google.com/search?q=bear+meat+recipes)

Seems like those hunters and exotic meat market shoppers are eating it.

I've heard from many a hunter that pie pastry prepared with bear fat is something to behold. Not my thing, though.

My original point boils down to this: if you don't approve of killing animals, don't use animal products. Buying something in the grocery store neatly wrapped in shrink wrap does not make one any less responsible for the death of that animal. I do not understand the moral high ground some think they attain by calling hunters barbaric when they still in fact, eat dead animals. Why is that person more moral simply because they paid someone else to do the killing for them?

[Piscivore]

This of course brings to mind this classic "Heathers" line:
You go to the zoo and you get a lion. Stick a remote control bomb up it's butt... push the button on the bomb and you and the lion die like one.

[Alt+F4]

Actuallly it was the boy's father who shot the bear, not the boy himself. Worry not though, the organization who sponsored the trip is going to start doing 3 or 4 of these a year. Delta Airlines will fly the the kid's and families for free!

Linky: http://www.princegeorgecitizen.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=85892&Itemid=160

[Darth Rotor]

Hard to believe we're talking about the same species on the same planet.
The standard deviation from "the mean" in human behavior is rather large. I am not surprised by much, when it comes to bizarre behavior.

When someone said "variety is the spice of life" I think the sentiment included variations of behavior. Perhaps the Cambodian example is the habanero pepper, and the kid hunting the bear, and his family, is the red curry.

What's in your dinner? :confused:

DR

[bigred]

OK I gotta admit I'd rather they go for deer, which are far more plentiful....

[Zep]

OK I gotta admit I'd rather they go for deer, which are far more plentiful....I think that's my position too: Cows we got lots of, and they taste good too (when cooked). Bears would seem to be far less abundant, and I gather they taste dreadful. And hunting cows is a lot less strenuous than hunting bears. So when it comes to hunting for the pot, cows are a lot better prospect than bears.

;)

[Madalch]

Bears would seem to be far less abundant, and I gather they taste dreadful.
Actually, the bear I've had has been delicious. Very rich, with a texture like pork.

[tkingdoll]

I love this.

If I've gotta die, I'm taking a BEAR with me!!!

Ha ha!!!

[Boo]

I love this.

If I've gotta die, I'm taking a BEAR with me!!!

Ha ha!!!


If I gotta die, I'm taking Sylvia with me. ;)




Boo

[tkingdoll]

If I gotta die, I'm taking Sylvia with me. ;)




Boo

See, we could all pledge something!

I wonder if anyone has bagsied Bush.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Big deal...his Father is a hunter...he was raised in that tradition..maybe him and his Father talked fondly of always going on a bear hunt and how much fun it would be. His Father finds out the kid is dying and takes him on the hunting trip. By the replies in this thread it looks like a lot of lefty's got their panties in a wad over nothing.

[bigred]

I think that's my position too: Cows we got lots of, and they taste good too (when cooked). Bears would seem to be far less abundant, and I gather they taste dreadful. And hunting cows is a lot less strenuous than hunting bears. So when it comes to hunting for the pot, cows are a lot better prospect than bears.

;)

prech on brutha zep :cool:

[Zep]

Actually, the bear I've had has been delicious. Very rich, with a texture like pork.Sure that wasn't a fat person on Lost?? ;)

[WildCat]

Killing things makes you a man.
And paying someone to kill something for you and wrap it up neatly in plastic at the grocery store while belittling those who do it themselves makes you a smug self-rightous hypocrite.

[bigred]

Please do not feed the trolls. The sign is plainly marked as you walk into the park, sheesh

[The Central Scrutinizer]

And paying someone to kill something for you and wrap it up neatly in plastic at the grocery store while belittling those who do it themselves makes you a smug self-rightous hypocrite.

False.

But nice try.

[WildCat]

False.

But nice try.
So you're a vegan?

[bigred]

Please do not feed the trolls.

You've been thrown out of Yellowstone too, haven't you?

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Please do not feed the trolls.

You've been thrown out of Yellowstone too, haven't you?


People get their butt kicked in a forum and they bring out the old troll quote.

[quixotecoyote]

My position on hunting:

Nothing wrong with killing animals per se, but I question the motives of many hunters I've met. I eat meat, but take no joy in the death of my food, whereas many people I've known couldn't seem to have a fun holiday without killing something.

My complaint is more people-focused than animal focused.

[ConspiRaider]

Actuallly it was the boy's father who shot the bear, not the boy himself. Worry not though, the organization who sponsored the trip is going to start doing 3 or 4 of these a year. Delta Airlines will fly the the kid's and families for free!

Linky: http://www.princegeorgecitizen.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=85892&Itemid=160
Just incredible. And they're skinning the bear for a nice bear rug to send back to the family.

What an opportunity missed. Everything about the idea is fine - except that something had to be taken instead of given.

Silly and idiotic right-wingers who love big guns and "sport" hunting: I eat meat, I have no problem with raising animals for consumption, and if it personally came down to survival where I had to do this hunting bit: I would.

This was not about survival. Bears are not raised as a food source of protein, are they? They don't drive herds of bears to the slaughterhouses in Chicago, last I checked. We make bears dance in circuses to amuse ourselves, train them up to act in the movies or TeeVee, gawk at them caged up in zoos and so forth. Other than that - they're wild animals supposedly left to their own devices.

This bear that was killed: Maybe a female bear? Maybe with cubs back home, awaiting breakfast? No more mama? Dead cubs in a few days?

This, sport-hunting right-winger, is just exactly why we're now in the fix we're in. Your attitude. "Hey you lefties! We're humans and we have dominion over everything! Crybabies! We can do whatever we want and screw Nature if she doesn't like it! So a bear died! So the hell what?!? Least his Dad's got a nice rug now to remind him of his son. You gotta problem with that?"

What if, instead of taking a bear's life, the family decided to donate the 500 bucks or so to help prevent the destruction of the rain forest? And then took their son TO the rain forest that he'd help save?

NAH! Too lefty! You rascally "sensitive" treehuggers! Global warming freaks! I'm a gonna get me a silverback mountain gorilla and have it stuffed and send it back to the wifey when my time is near!!! You lefty! You'll probably plant a tree or something! Loser!

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Just incredible. And they're skinning the bear for a nice bear rug to send back to the family.

What an opportunity missed. Everything about the idea is fine - except that something had to be taken instead of given.

Silly and idiotic right-wingers who love big guns and "sport" hunting: I eat meat, I have no problem with raising animals for consumption, and if it personally came down to survival where I had to do this hunting bit: I would.

This was not about survival. Bears are not raised as a food source of protein, are they? They don't drive herds of bears to the slaughterhouses in Chicago, last I checked. We make bears dance in circuses to amuse ourselves, train them up to act in the movies or TeeVee, gawk at them caged up in zoos and so forth. Other than that - they're wild animals supposedly left to their own devices.

This bear that was killed: Maybe a female bear? Maybe with cubs back home, awaiting breakfast? No more mama? Dead cubs in a few days?

This, sport-hunting right-winger, is just exactly why we're now in the fix we're in. Your attitude. "Hey you lefties! We're humans and we have dominion over everything! Crybabies! We can do whatever we want and screw Nature if she doesn't like it! So a bear died! So the hell what?!? Least his Dad's got a nice rug now to remind him of his son. You gotta problem with that?"

What if, instead of taking a bear's life, the family decided to donate the 500 bucks or so to help prevent the destruction of the rain forest? And then took their son TO the rain forest that he'd help save?

NAH! Too lefty! You rascally "sensitive" treehuggers! Global warming freaks! I'm a gonna get me a silverback mountain gorilla and have it stuffed and send it back to the wifey when my time is near!!! You lefty! You'll probably plant a tree or something! Loser!



Liberals hunt when they want to get hunters votes..Kerry hunts birds every time around election day and he even shot a V.C. in the back in Vietnam.

[LostAngeles]

It's not the eating of meat or the wearing of leather I'm against. Those animals are killed for a reason.

If you're just going out and shooting a bear for the sake of saying, "HEY! I killed a bear!" that's completely different from going out and shooting a bear so you can have some bear meat and a bear skin rug. I have my doubts as to it being a majority of hunters who are out just killing things for the sheer joy having killed something, but I could be wrong on that.

Maybe the kid wanted to do what his father does and bring home a bear for the family to eat and have a bear skin rug so that they can treasure it in his memory.

[a_unique_person]

I liked the big teddy bear they had at the funeral. It was very touching.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

I liked the big teddy bear they had at the funeral. It was very touching.

Did they...that`s hilarious in a macabre way.

[WildCat]

Silly and idiotic right-wingers who love big guns and "sport" hunting:
Evidence that only right-wingers hunt?

I eat meat, I have no problem with raising animals for consumption, and if it personally came down to survival where I had to do this hunting bit: I would.

This was not about survival. Bears are not raised as a food source of protein, are they?
Why should this make a difference?

They don't drive herds of bears to the slaughterhouses in Chicago, last I checked.
But I do know of a place on Lincoln Ave. that serves bear meat.

This bear that was killed: Maybe a female bear? Maybe with cubs back home, awaiting breakfast? No more mama? Dead cubs in a few days?
Not likely. Cubs leave the den with their mothers by the time hunting season comes around, and it's not allowed to shoot a sow with cubs.

What if, instead of taking a bear's life, the family decided to donate the 500 bucks or so to help prevent the destruction of the rain forest? And then took their son TO the rain forest that he'd help save?
They decided to pay the hunting license fee instead to the Canadian gov't - which goes to maintaining wildlife habitat.

NAH! Too lefty! You rascally "sensitive" treehuggers! Global warming freaks! I'm a gonna get me a silverback mountain gorilla and have it stuffed and send it back to the wifey when my time is near!!! You lefty! You'll probably plant a tree or something! Loser!
Bears are not endangered in Canada. A comparison to mountain gorillas is silly.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Maybe the boy and bear met up in Heaven and became friends?

[Comrade Ogilvy]

You got to kill some of them that`s the reason they have a Bear hunting season. Around here in Tennessee they are straying in from the mountains and attacking people and pets.

[WildCat]

If I see a bear on a plane I'll kill it with my bear hands.

Thank you, I'm here all week.

[RandFan]

The mechanism is really very easy to understand. Human behavior is reinforced by the carrot and stick method. When we need food, we experience discomfort. When we eat we experience pleasure and then well being. Evolution threw in a powerful motivator to stalk and kill animals for those times when humans did not have enough plants to sustain life.

Hunting can evoke some very powerful emotions and feelings. The hunt is similar to foreplay and the catch similar to eating a really good meal. The sense of accomplishment and well being are difficult to describe really. It can be somewhat spiritual.

Now, I've not gone on a hunt in over two decades and I have moved from my rural roots so I can understand the discomfort others have for killing another live thing and particularly something so majestic and beautiful as a bear. I have to admit that it is very unlikely that I could bring myself to kill a bear today (I've never hunted anything other than game birds and rabbits BTW).

Bears do need to be culled and they supply a good amount of quality meat. I can't personally denounce what this boy did but I can understand why other people have a difficult time with it.

[Snide]

I find it quite amusing what a stir was caused by someone simply saying, "I don't get it."

I don't "get it" either, but it doesn't mean I am anti-hunting, nor does it make me a hypocrite because I eat meat (without taking any pleasure in the death of the animals I end up eating).

I find habits of many (not all) hunters funny; that doesn't make me a hypocrite as a meat-eater.

[qayak]

I've killed a bear! I think every dying child should have the opportunity to kill something before they go. I think a bear is a good choice because it will make the boy feel so good to kill something he knows could easily kill him. I think it will bring him great comfort to be lying on his death bed with his last thought, "I got ya Smokie! I got ya!"

[qayak]

If I see a bear on a plane I'll kill it with my bear hands.

Thank you, I'm here all week.

That's what we're afraid of! Here, put this bear costume on, . . . Never mind "why!"

[Molinaro]

You got to kill some of them that`s the reason they have a Bear hunting season. Around here in Tennessee they are straying in from the mountains and attacking people and pets.

Are you certain it's not a case of people and pets straying closer and closer to the mountains?



I would like to have seen the parents take the kid out to plant a tree instead. That's just my preference.

[Madalch]

I would like to have seen the parents take the kid out to plant a tree instead. That's just my preference.

Well, I guess the kid just didn't want to plant a tree. And the kid's probably going to die before he hits 14- maybe you could just let him decide how to spend some time in what little time he's got left instead of telling him what's more politically correct? You want a tree planted- go plant it yourself. You've got a lot more time to do it in than this kid does.

And it's not like bears aren't hunted every year- the provincial government allows a certian number of bear kills per year, and this was one of them. If the kids didn't go out to hunt the bear, some other hunter would have. The bear's life would not have been saved if the kid had been convinced to save the rainforest, plant a tree, write a poem about his feelings, hug an orca, or any of the others things suggested by those who seem to think that hunting is only done by crazed right-wingers with God complexes (I vote NDP, and I'll be damned if anyone calls me a right-winger for hunting!).

And by the way, it's "Canuck", with one n.

[corplinx]

The Onion had its pants sued off for an article once.

Dieing Boy Granted Last Wish: To Pork Janet Jackson

[Molinaro]

And the kid's probably going to die before he hits 14- maybe you could just let him decide how to spend some time in what little time he's got left instead of telling him what's more politically correct?


I didn't say "He should have ...."
Or that, "It's wrong for him to ..."

I said that, "I would like to have seen ..."

So please do take your rant and shove it.

And being French, I reserve the right to mispell whatever word I feel like mispelling.

Thanks.

[Madalch]

The Onion had its pants sued off for an article once.

Dieing Boy Granted Last Wish: To Pork Janet Jackson
The Toque (an inferior version of The Onion) had a similar story, about a dying 16-year-old's last wish- a threesome with two hot models.

[Madalch]

I didn't say "He should have ...."
Or that, "It's wrong for him to ..."

I said that, "I would like to have seen ..."

I would have liked to have seen the kid not dying of cancer.

Unfortunately, what we would like is usually irrelevant.

[ponderingturtle]

Just incredible. And they're skinning the bear for a nice bear rug to send back to the family.

What an opportunity missed. Everything about the idea is fine - except that something had to be taken instead of given.

Silly and idiotic right-wingers who love big guns and "sport" hunting: I eat meat, I have no problem with raising animals for consumption, and if it personally came down to survival where I had to do this hunting bit: I would.

This was not about survival. Bears are not raised as a food source of protein, are they? They don't drive herds of bears to the slaughterhouses in Chicago, last I checked. We make bears dance in circuses to amuse ourselves, train them up to act in the movies or TeeVee, gawk at them caged up in zoos and so forth. Other than that - they're wild animals supposedly left to their own devices.


So if animals are not raised for meat they should not be killed to manage their populations? Deer and bears can be real pests, and can have major problems with over population if their numbers are not managed. That is one major point you are leaving out.

[ponderingturtle]

It's not the eating of meat or the wearing of leather I'm against. Those animals are killed for a reason.

If you're just going out and shooting a bear for the sake of saying, "HEY! I killed a bear!" that's completely different from going out and shooting a bear so you can have some bear meat and a bear skin rug. I have my doubts as to it being a majority of hunters who are out just killing things for the sheer joy having killed something, but I could be wrong on that.

Maybe the kid wanted to do what his father does and bring home a bear for the family to eat and have a bear skin rug so that they can treasure it in his memory.

The creepiest take on this I have seen video of was target shooting prairie dogs. Of course if you label them a pest and it is shoot or poison them, I don't see why shooting them should be so looked down on.

[ponderingturtle]

Are you certain it's not a case of people and pets straying closer and closer to the mountains?



I would like to have seen the parents take the kid out to plant a tree instead. That's just my preference.

Nope. We had a bear around here about 10 years ago, right out back of a 2nd grade school, 30 miles from NYC. Now you could say it is bear habitat but bears have not lived here for at least 200 years.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Are you certain it's not a case of people and pets straying closer and closer to the mountains?



I would like to have seen the parents take the kid out to plant a tree instead. That's just my preference.

Could be, but I bet a lot of Indians were also attacked by Bears hundreds of years ago.

[Checkmite]

Well, I guess the kid just didn't want to plant a tree. And the kid's probably going to die before he hits 14- maybe you could just let him decide how to spend some time in what little time he's got left instead of telling him what's more politically correct?

According to CNN, the kid died during the airplane trip back from his hunt.

[bigred]

This, sport-hunting right-winger, is just exactly why we're now in the fix we're in. Your attitude. "Hey you lefties! We're humans and we have dominion over everything! Crybabies! We can do whatever we want and screw Nature if she doesn't like it! So a bear died! So the hell what?!? Least his Dad's got a nice rug now to remind him of his son. You gotta problem with that?"

What if, instead of taking a bear's life, the family decided to donate the 500 bucks or so to help prevent the destruction of the rain forest? And then took their son TO the rain forest that he'd help save?

NAH! Too lefty! You rascally "sensitive" treehuggers! Global warming freaks! I'm a gonna get me a silverback mountain gorilla and have it stuffed and send it back to the wifey when my time is near!!! You lefty! You'll probably plant a tree or something! Loser!
LOL

Well I'm glad you didn't digress into an incoherent rant.

:rolleyes:

Whether you're a troll or not, that was funny. Thanks

[Comrade Ogilvy]

What if, instead of taking a bear's life, the family decided to donate the 500 bucks or so to help prevent the destruction of the rain forest? And then took their son TO the rain forest that he'd help save?


Awww...how sensitive...save a rain forest...maybe he could have also met with Sting and Bono before he died?

[Beerina]

It's possible that accelerating the destruction of rainforests would increase the GDP of Brazil, which in turn would produce a more vibrant economy, leading to more medical research, which could have cured him.

Oh, wait. That doesn't fit into the tree-hugger mentality, which couldn't possibly lead to a lower quality of life. It can't. It just can't.

[armageddonman]

Hmmmm.... (http://www.google.com/search?q=bear+meat+recipes)

Seems like those hunters and exotic meat market shoppers are eating it.

I've heard from many a hunter that pie pastry prepared with bear fat is something to behold. Not my thing, though.

My original point boils down to this: if you don't approve of killing animals, don't use animal products. Buying something in the grocery store neatly wrapped in shrink wrap does not make one any less responsible for the death of that animal. I do not understand the moral high ground some think they attain by calling hunters barbaric when they still in fact, eat dead animals. Why is that person more moral simply because they paid someone else to do the killing for them?

I'm a vegan. So I guess it is OK for me to call hunters babaric?

I don;t blame the kids, I blame his parents. What a horrible thing it is to teach a child that killing is fun.

[Thitical Crinker]

I'm a vegan. So I guess it is OK for me to call hunters babaric?

I don;t blame the kids, I blame his parents. What a horrible thing it is to teach a child that killing is fun.

I was raised in a hunting family. We kill our dinner. Never was I taught "killing is fun". I was taught it was necessary for something to die so I could eat.

It boils down to this:
1. Nothing lives forever.
2. Few animals in the wild die from old age and those that do suffer a very piteous demise.
3. Wildlife, if left alone by man, would sustain itself through overpopulation, starvation and disease in horrendous cycles.

I like meat. I can pay someone to kill it for me or I can kill it myself. Call me barbaric if you wish but there is nothing tastier than fresh venison tenderloin.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

2. Few animals in the wild die from old age and those that do suffer a very piteous demise.
3. Wildlife, if left alone by man, would sustain itself through overpopulation, starvation and disease in horrendous cycles.


Evidence?

[FarmallMTA]

http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/us/2007/06/11/wolfe.boys.last.bear.hunt.wxia

I just don't get it. Maybe someone can explain this to me.

Sounds fair to me. If bears ran the internet, there'd be more than one story about "Dying bear cub would like to kill and eat just one 10 year old human before death."

I'm fairly deaf to bear complaints of rights violations. They pay no taxes, participate in no anti-globalization direct actions, and have taken no diversity training courses.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Maybe the boy and bear met up in Heaven and became friends?

Or maybe the bear will kill him.

[bigred]

II don;t blame the kids, I blame his parents. What a horrible thing it is to teach a child that killing is fun.You clearly have no problem killing plants - or the insects that are innocently trying to eat the plants to survive, I bet.

Hypocrite.

[coalesce]

Awww...how sensitive...save a rain forest...maybe he could have also met with Sting and Bono before he died?

That's TOO cruel!

Michael

[RandFan]

Evidence?Interesting.

It's simply the way nature works. Predators kill and eat other animals. It's not easy for predators to kill and eat animals. To try and kill another animals requires a great expenditure of energy that is potentialy leathel. Because of that predators often go hungry.

To avoid the over expenditure of energy and the risk of failure predators constantly seek young, infirm and past their prime victims. This really isn't a controversial point. It's trivially true. BTW, there are some species of animals that are more likely to die past their prime other than humans but they are rare. Turtles, I believe and most predators but even they are typically killed before they can die of old age. No predator is going to let good meat simply wander around waiting to die of natural causes.

Of course, predation isn't the only killer. Starvation and the elements can also be a prime contributor but these animals are often eaten by birds and other animals as they lay dying if they are not quickly dispatched by a predator.

So, believe it or don't. I don't care. It's rare I will make zero effort to find evidence. You will find few that don't know this already from school lessons. Demanding proof of something so trivially true only makes you look silly and it is hardly worth the effort. I might as well try and prove that the rings of saturn aren't green cheese.

[armageddonman]

I was raised in a hunting family. We kill our dinner. Never was I taught "killing is fun". I was taught it was necessary for something to die so I could eat.

It boils down to this:
1. Nothing lives forever.
2. Few animals in the wild die from old age and those that do suffer a very piteous demise.
3. Wildlife, if left alone by man, would sustain itself through overpopulation, starvation and disease in horrendous cycles.

I like meat. I can pay someone to kill it for me or I can kill it myself. Call me barbaric if you wish but there is nothing tastier than fresh venison tenderloin.

I know many hunters and heard all the arguments. Nevertheless, all I know get a serious thrill from killing animals. The bigger, the better.

[RandFan]

I know many hunters and heard all the arguments. Nevertheless, all I know get a serious thrill from killing animals. The bigger, the better.And you don't like this. That's cool. Is there any reason why anyone else should agree with you?

[Cylinder]

Evidence?

For the first assertion, I'll cite a 2002 study of the Whitetail Deer population in Pennsylvania:

I captured 110 fawns in PV and 108 fawns in QWA. In the best (AIC = 0) logistic regression model, only study site and fawn mass at capture were related to fawn survival, with fawns in PV and heavier fawns more likely to survive. None of the 4 metrics of habitat composition and configuration was related to fawn survival. Of known-fate models, the best (AICc = 0, AICc weight = 95.0%) model suggested fawn survival differed between QWA and PV through time. Survival at one week post-capture was 83% in PV (82.7%, 95% CI = 74.5–88.7%) and in QWA (83.3%, 95% CI = 75.1–89.2%). Survival at 9 weeks after capture was 72.4% (95% CI =63.3–80.0%) in PV and 57.2% (95% CI = 47.5–66.3%) in QWA. Survival at 26 weeks after capture was 58.6% (95% CI = 48.8–67.7%) in PV and 45.6% (95% CI = 36.0–55.6%) in QWA. Thirty-four-week survival was 52.9% (95% CI = 42.7–62.8%) in PV and 37.9% (95% CI = 27.7%–49.3%) in QWA. Within 34 weeks of capture, 106 of 218 monitored fawns died and 21 were censored. Of 98 fawns radio-tagged in 2000, 51 died within 34 weeks of capture and 7 were censored. Of 120 fawns radio-tagged in 2001, 55 died within 34 weeks of capture and 14 were censored. For both study sites combined, predation was the greatest source of mortality, accounting for deaths of 22.5% (95% CI = 17.6–28.8) of captured fawns and 46.2% (95% CI = 37.6–56.7) of mortalities through 34 weeks. Natural causes, excluding predation, were the second leading cause of death, accounting for deaths of 13.3% (95% CI = 9.5–18.6) of captured fawns and 27.4% (95% CI = 20.1–37.3) of mortalities. Vehicle accidents accounted for deaths of 9 fawns. Hunting accounted for deaths of 7 monitored fawns. Predation rates were greater in QWA, where 83.7% of predation events occurred. Mortality rates from other sources of mortality did not differ between QWA and PV, but 62.1% of deaths by natural causes, excluding predation, occurred in PV. I attributed 32.7% and 36.7% of predation events to black bears (Ursus americanus) and coyotes (Canis latrans), respectively. Bobcats (Lynx rufus) and unidentified predators accounted for 6.1% and 24.5% of predation events, respectively. White-tailed deer fawn survival in a forested and an agricultural landscape in central Pennsylvania is comparable to fawn survival in other forested and agricultural regions in northern portions of the white-tailed deer’s range. Fawn survival may be greater in agricultural landscapes where habitat quality is presumed greater and predator densities may be less than in forested landscapes where habitat condition may be poorer and predators may be more abundant. However, the influence of landscape condition on fawn survival requires further study with replicate landscapes over larger geographic scales. Mortality from predation and other natural causes, excluding predation, are the dominant sources of mortality to fawns in Pennsylvania.

As the study shows, roughly half of the monitored fawns died within 34 weeks of tagging.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Interesting.

It's simply the way nature works. Predators kill and eat other animals. It's not easy for predators to kill and eat animals. To try and kill another animals requires a great expenditure of energy that is potentialy leathel. Because of that predators often go hungry.

To avoid the over expenditure of energy and the risk of failure predators constantly seek young, infirm and past their prime victims. This really isn't a controversial point. It's trivially true. BTW, there are some species of animals that are more likely to die past their prime other than humans but they are rare. Turtles, I believe and most predators but even they are typically killed before they can die of old age. No predator is going to let good meat simply wander around waiting to die of natural causes.

Of course, predation isn't the only killer. Starvation and the elements can also be a prime contributor but these animals are often eaten by birds and other animals as they lay dying if they are not quickly dispatched by a predator.

So, believe it or don't. I don't care. It's rare I will make zero effort to find evidence. You will find few that don't know this already from school lessons. Demanding proof of something so trivially true only makes you look silly and it is hardly worth the effort. I might as well try and prove that the rings of saturn aren't green cheese.


You're making assertions about nature when you have no evidence. Please provided evidence that most animals in the wild "suffer a very piteous demise" and "if left alone by man, would sustain itself through overpopulation, starvation and disease in horrendous cycles".

[Dustin Kesselberg]

For the first assertion, I'll cite a 2002 study of the Whitetail Deer population in Pennsylvania:



As the study shows, roughly half of the monitored fawns died within 34 weeks of tagging.


These are Deer who are notoriously overpopulated in the United States. He said "few animals in the wild" meaning of all species.

[Ocelot]

These are Deer who are notoriously overpopulated in the United States.

Evidence?

[Ocelot]

He said "few animals in the wild" meaning of all species.

Evidence?

[Ocelot]

You're making assertions about nature.

Evidence?

[Ocelot]

This isn't an argument it's just contradiction.

Come one Dustin, give it a rest. Picking something that it is possible to disagree with and then just quoting it and askign for evidence is really easy and tedious.

Nature red in tooth and claw is well accepted. If you think that this is some sort of urban legend or genral ignarance then let us know your reason for suspecting it not to be true. Put some effort into the conversation. Why should I doubt that most animals in nature meet an unitmely end. It makes perfect sense to me. It's in keeping with the numerous examples I know. Why should this particular example of common knowledge attract my skepticism.

[richardm]

"if left alone by man, would sustain itself through overpopulation, starvation and disease in horrendous cycles".


There have been studies done on population curves and their interactions, probably most famously done by reference to the Hudson Trapping Co's records of catches of Snowshoe Rabbits and Lynxes; it's usually referred to as Foxes and Rabbits. (http://www.kluge.net/%7Efelicity/proj/deq.html) It's simplistic but easy enough to understand the principles.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Evidence?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6835501/

Evidence?



2. Few animals in the wild die from old age and those that do suffer a very piteous demise.

Evidence?

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2688824&postcount=63

There have been studies done on population curves and their interactions, probably most famously done by reference to the Hudson Trapping Co's records of catches of Snowshoe Rabbits and Lynxes; it's usually referred to as Foxes and Rabbits. (http://www.kluge.net/%7Efelicity/proj/deq.html) It's simplistic but easy enough to understand the principles.


How does this support "Thitical Crinker" assertions? There's a constant fluctuation between the fox population and the rabbit population, rabbits proliferating and foxes proliferating, rabbits dying and foxes dying. I also fail to see how this is a defense for hunting. Sounds like they're having a bad enough problem without fat guys toting around shotguns trying to kill them.