Possible to deprogram my wife and her alt. health ways?

[JordyT]

We've been married 5yrs and she has always been into this crap. I'm not talking about legitimate alt. health such as meditation, massage, etc but the real wacky stuff namely homeopathy. I made some headway on the vaccination front (she was anti-vaccination until I talked some sense into her, this took about 2 yrs). I also made headway with a few other things like 'hair analysis' by these quacks at home touching hair with a stylus and looking at fractals on a pc monitor. I made a bit or progress on cranial osteopathy, oh and she thinks naturapaths and osteopaths are the way to go for every sickness. I once witnessed her pay some dude $160 bucks and he lightly touched the base of her head, surprisingly this did nothing. I think I have made a little progress but she will not budge on this homeopathy stuff which as far as I'm concerned is the biggest of the biggest of the alt. health frauds. Not only that i cringe at the thought of spending 100's of dollars a year on these 'remedies' that are nothing but little starch balls. I once made her watch a documentary on it that was a total knock out punch to this nonsense yet she is still using it. My 4yr old gets sick and out come these damn remedies, it drives me nuts. Do I keep fighting, do I ignore it? One thought was to replace all her pills with fakes, then a few yrs from now she'll be going on and on about how they cured our daughter of this and that and I was proven wrong - then I can just say nope, I replaced them all. I guess I'd end up in a divorce over that. At this stage I just grin and bare it because anytime I bring up that it's total BS and she's throwing our money down the drain we end up fighting. She's perfect in every other way but I am a big time skeptic with a hell of a lot of common sense where she is gullible and trusts everything (basically the target audience for quacks). I did score one victory the other day she had terrible muscle pain so out came the remedies, after a day of suffering I finally convinced her to take a few ibuprophens bam she was better 30minutes later. I was shocked she actually took 'evil' medicine so maybe there is hope yet! :rolleyes:

[JoeTheJuggler]

Try quackwatch.org and homeowatch.org.

I think, especially with homeopathy, plenty of believers just don't know what they're being sold. Give her the information, and let her read it. She'll probably be more receptive reading it from an authority (like Stephen Barrett, M.D.) than hearing it from you.

[Reno]

Gather every single homoeopathic pill in the house together. Pile them up on the coffee table in front of her. have a BIG glass of water there too. Sit her down and tell her to watch closely as you swallow every last one of them in one sitting. (the more pills the better) Then ask her why there is no effect of any kind on you.

If that doesn't give her pause to think, nothing will. If this fails, accept that your wife is a woo and love her for the rest of your life.

[yairhol]

Gather every single homoeopathic pill in the house together. Pile them up on the coffee table in front of her. have a BIG glass of water there too. Sit her down and tell her to watch closely as you swallow every last one of them in one sitting. (the more pills the better) Then ask her why there is no effect of any kind on you.

If that doesn't give her pause to think, nothing will. If this fails, accept that your wife is a woo and love her for the rest of your life.

or get a divorce because she'll suck up all your money and spend it on crap. In past years it was some other woo and now it's homeopathy. Next year someone will come up with a new woo and she'll fall for that too. It's a pitty working so hard for your good earned money and then giving it a way to scammers.

Regards,
Yair

[Dark Jaguar]

My mother got into this stuff too, and it's a shame. I've had talks with her and at the very least she doesn't think legitimate medicine is "evil".

Generally our debates on it start from me asking where the evidence for this or that thing is (I tend to feign ignorance of certain things and try asking questions in a way that might get her asking questions). From there I end up talking about how this or that aspect doesn't make sense or violates pretty well established knowledge of how the world works or just plain lacks evidence and maybe it should be tested. A lot of the time, she'll basically just say something like "well I just think we should use more natural cures" which gets me going on about how the word "natural" is more or less meaningless or at least arbitrary and useless to validate the effect of medicine (I like bringing up that snake venom is all natural which tends to remind her that nature does not always equal good). After delving into that for a while she just ends up stating the original thing again like "well I just think we use too many chemicals" (a rephrasing of the same argument) and I end up explaining that well EVERYTHING is a chemical, we are MADE of chemicals, and chemical does not mean unhealthy. She just says "well I don't agree with that" as though it's just personal opinion. Generally the argument always ends with her just saying it's just an opinion, which is very frustrating because opinions can be wrong, and I wish she'd pay attention to my arguments, and all that. For some reason she also sees the FDA as this big evil overlord out to prevent cures from reaching people, and when I ask why that could possibly benefit them I always get the same ol' canard about how doctors can get more money out of keeping patients sick and having them return than they can by curing people. I point out that we have a nurse shortage and doctors aren't exactly starved for clients, and that if anything it's the altie practicers that tend to benefit from that sort of not offering a cure thing, and again "well that's just my opinion".

But, lose the battle, win the war, in some cases. She may SEEM like she doesn't agree with you but that's the heat of the debate. Later on, when she's by herself, maybe she'll think about what you said and reconsider it. Maybe not. I doubt you'll ever convince her to agree with you during the argument, but maybe she'll reconsider this or that on her own time. She did start taking real medicine (the evil kind :D) so there's hope. It's still a maybe though. They have to be the sort of person that might reconsider and question their own points of view. I know I dug myself out of various nonsense and I always remind myself of that when I think there's no point trying. Just keep up the pressure and see what happens.

Also, I'd try the ol' switcharoo thing you suggested. Would it really end in a divorce you think, or just a heated fight? After all, it's not just your money being thrown away, but fueling the careers of people wasting other's time and money. I think it's worth the effort. I wouldn't wait YEARS to reveal it to her though. Instead, try a few months. Just wait for the first time she attributes some cure to her medicine, or the first 3 times or so, and then tell her what you did. I'd also video tape you replacing the medicine so if she doubts you, you can just stick that tape in the VCR and hit play. Try to have an explanation of placebo effect and the reason double blind studies are needed at the ready if she goes for the "but I felt it work" tact. Also, and this is important, I've seen some of the medicine my mom takes. This homeopathic stuff often comes in the form of just a bottle of water with a dropper in the lid. Well, the water's supposed to be medicine, but the thing I noticed is this. One, my mom has no idea what homeopathy is. She thought it "odd" that the medicine was clear, odorless and tasteless, but she just thought it was the nature of the stuff. She doesn't even know what the stuff is claimed to be derived from. It seems homeopathy providers very often neglect to even explain what they believe is how it works to patients because most of them WOULD think it was silly if they were told it wasn't actually a weird chemical but actually water with highly diluted whatever maybe in it.

(Sillyest thing I've seen for that? There's a machine some have that apparently can "broadcast" the data this water memory holds over a telephone line and into water vials right at the office, "charging" it with the behavior it needs. They literally just put it in some magnets and put that data right in there. Knowing more than a few things about computers and the amount of data that might entail, and how data is stored, that comes across just plain insane, more so than the things I know are crazy because people who know how stuff works in OTHER fields explain it in a rough way to me.)

Anyway, back to the point, which I lost there, if your wife is taking THAT sort of medicine, she'll have an excuse. You may have washed MOST of the medicine out of the bottle, but there was enough left to cure her. Hopefully she just takes pills. I doubt she'd go as far as to say there was enough residue from pills to cure her. Because, well THAT is just silly :D. I know, it's not any sillier to you or me, but it would probably be the difference that would be enough for someone like her, maybe.

[SomeGuy]

My wife is a lot like yours, though she also has a lot of faith in EBM, thankfully.

Our compromise is basically that for herself, and our son she can use homeopathy, for things that I think people/kids should just endure.

So our son takes homeopathy to help him with his pain with teething, my wiffe took it against the muscle aches of pregnancy etc.

Anything that isn't normal though, we go see a regular doctor, and take EBM.

My last advice is, help her buy the stuff, and go for drops from a little bottle rather than suger pills. The little bottles you can top up with tapwater, and safe a lot of money.

That's what I do.

[Pidge]

My last advice is, help her buy the stuff, and go for drops from a little bottle rather than suger pills. The little bottles you can top up with tapwater, and safe a lot of money.

That's down right deceptive and evil.



I like it....

[Georg]

My last advice is, help her buy the stuff, and go for drops from a little bottle rather than suger pills. The little bottles you can top up with tapwater, and safe a lot of money.

That's what I do.

Absolutely brilliant! You could even tell her what you are doing. Because according to homoeopathy-logic (O.K., that´s an oxymoron) the remedies would even get stronger through that procedure when shaken properly.
Oh well, she might be afraid of taking an overdose then……..

[Georg]

My 4yr old gets sick and out come these damn remedies, it drives me nuts. Do I keep fighting, do I ignore it?

As a father that takes his responsibility serious, I think you have to fight it. At least when the sugar pills are the only medicine she would give to your child even when it is really ill. Just think about the possibility of your little one being seriously harmed when denied the EvidenceBasedMedicine. Could you live with that? Maybe a compromise as described by SomeGuy would be possible?
You´d still waste money, but the homoeo-stuff isn´t too expensive where I live and maybe that´s worth it for keeping your marriage alive.

[eir_de_scania]

SomeGuy's advice is exellent! :D

But you have to put your foot down (I suspect you already do) when it comes to give your son homeopatic remedies for real illness. If an adult wants to take starch balls instead of nasty EBM it's moe or less their own choice, but you shouldn't risk your child's health.

[Mobyseven]

Easy. Tell her if she doesn't stop wasting your (2nd person plural) money on useless crap, you're going to buy a sports car or a motorcycle. If that doesn't work divorce.

Alternately, I do like the idea of sitting down and downing every single homeopathic pill in the house.

[MortFurd]

Easy. Tell her if she doesn't stop wasting your (2nd person plural) money on useless crap, you're going to buy a sports car or a motorcycle. If that doesn't work divorce.

Alternately, I do like the idea of sitting down and downing every single homeopathic pill in the house.

Divorce (at least in Germany) wouldn't be much of an option.
As far as I can tell, they all believe in homeopathy here. Might have something to do with Hahnemann having been a kraut.

I'll keep my missus. She believes in homeopathy, but the replacement would too - and might have a thing about buying every pair of shoes in the store as well, which present Ms. doesn't.

Downing all the pills at one time might not be a good idea for diabetics, or people with lactose intolerance. All the pills here are made of lactose.

Funny how they use pills when Hahnemann did all his work with dissolved and diluted stuff. And considering how all the arguments for homeopathy start out with "but WATER remembers!" Even if water did remember, water ain't little lactose pills.

[Georg]

Divorce (at least in Germany) wouldn't be much of an option.
As far as I can tell, they all believe in homeopathy here. Might have something to do with Hahnemann having been a kraut.


I beg to differ. While I have to admit that this nonsense is widespread in this country, your generalisation is far from beeing true. Most people I know (not a representative sample of the population either, but still...) would judge homoeopathy as the ridiculous BS it is. And I don´t like the word "kraut" as a labeling for Germans.

[MortFurd]

I beg to differ. While I have to admit that this nonsense is widespread in this country, your generalisation is far from beeing true. Most people I know (not a representative sample of the population either, but still...) would judge homoeopathy as the ridiculous BS it is. And I don´t like the word "kraut" as a labeling for Germans.
Object at will. I live here, I'm married to a German woman. I've been here for going on twenty years. All of my best friends are German.

Homeopathy is so common that my wife has to warn doctors and pharmacists not to suggest homeopathic medicines to me. She does this before I meet them. I know because she's told me (after the fact) a couple of times. I mistrust any doctor that prescribes homeopathic BS.

Pardon me for the exageration. Not *literally* everyone believes in the crap. Just so #$#$% many of them that doctors regularly prescribe it and think nothing of it, and pharmacies keep large selections of the various remedies on hand. Did you ever hear of "exageration for effect?"

[SomeGuy]

Object at will. I live here, I'm married to a German woman. I've been here for going on twenty years. All of my best friends are German.

Homeopathy is so common that my wife has to warn doctors and pharmacists not to suggest homeopathic medicines to me. She does this before I meet them. I know because she's told me (after the fact) a couple of times. I mistrust any doctor that prescribes homeopathic BS.

Pardon me for the exageration. Not *literally* everyone believes in the crap. Just so #$#$% many of them that doctors regularly prescribe it and think nothing of it, and pharmacies keep large selections of the various remedies on hand. Did you ever hear of "exageration for effect?"

I fully understand, I live just across the border in the Netherlands, it's just as bad here.

It seems (I know, I know, confirmation bias at work, in my observation here) that all but a very few educated people believe in the homeopathic stuff....

Than again, we do of course live in the country where you can make the most outrageous medical claims, yet calling a quack a quack will bankrupt you.

[Sleepy]

My sister (speech pathology) has more of an education than I do (computer science) but she still believes homeopathy works. I try to rubbish it at every opportunity... she has two kids, I think I've convinced her to always try real medicine before resorting to "complementary" cures.

Even if you can't get your wife to abandon quackery, at least try to steer her to the quacks that promote their cures as complementary to real medicine. I know a lot of quacks encourage their clients to go to a real doctor in addition to popping sugar pills.

PS: I wouldn't go scoffing down homeopathic remedies with abandon... a lot of stuff with active, effective ingredients is labeled homeopathic these days to get the woo dollar. You might end up with egg on your face if you overdose on a herbal upper or downer...

[puppypundit]

Re: Downing every homeopathic remedy in the house.

Is there ever a possibility of there being any "active" ingredients in a homeopathic medicine?

I wanted to try this on my aunt who not only believes in this stuff but sold a whole whack of it to my father. It wouldn't be worth getting the runs or a bad headache over it though.

Any danger?

ETA: Sleepy just answered my question!

[NobbyNobbs]

Tell her to go ahead and buy all the homeopathic medicine she wants....but to do it with her own money. Tell her you won't fund something you don't believe in.

As far as your child, I don't see a problem with her giving him sugar pills, as long as you are getting him the treatment he needs as well. Sure, it might vindicate alt med in her eyes when he gets better, but it's not likely she'll change her mind anyway.

[Mobyseven]

As far as your child, I don't see a problem with her giving him sugar pills, as long as you are getting him the treatment he needs as well. Sure, it might vindicate alt med in her eyes when he gets better, but it's not likely she'll change her mind anyway.

Although (as people have pointed out) you may well be giving your child a pill with an active ingredient in it.

The whole bloody practise is [rule 8]ing unethical.

[Georg]

Homeopathy is so common that my wife has to warn doctors and pharmacists not to suggest homeopathic medicines to me. She does this before I meet them. I know because she's told me (after the fact) a couple of times. I mistrust any doctor that prescribes homeopathic BS.

May I ask where in Germany you are living? No doctor ever offered the homoeostuff to me. Just one vet that offered pills for my cat. And I live here since 38 years. I go a bit further with my mistrust. If a doctor would offer the stuff to me, I would never visit him again because he is either deluded or a fraud. I wouldn´t want either of them to care about my health.
Pardon me for the exageration. Not *literally* everyone believes in the crap. Just so #$#$% many of them that doctors regularly prescribe it and think nothing of it, and pharmacies keep large selections of the various remedies on hand. Did you ever hear of "exageration for effect?"
In my opinion that´s not an exaggeration for effect anymore but simply wrong, but of course you are free to use your personal style of discussion.

The “kraut” comment: Do your wife and your friends think it´s funny? Because I still don´t.
But after your explanation I fully accept that it wasn´t meant as racist as I thought it to be.
So: I apologize for putting you in the wrong corner.

[MortFurd]

Re: Downing every homeopathic remedy in the house.

Is there ever a possibility of there being any "active" ingredients in a homeopathic medicine?

I wanted to try this on my aunt who not only believes in this stuff but sold a whole whack of it to my father. It wouldn't be worth getting the runs or a bad headache over it though.

Any danger?

ETA: Sleepy just answered my question!
Homeopathic stuff won't have anything in the way of active ingredients. The dilution takes it down below problematic levels.

However, as Sleepy says, there are lots of things labeled "homeopathic" that would more properly be called herbal. And then there's crap that is labeled homeopathic, which has some other active ingredient in it that doesn't belong in there.

There are unscrupulous homeopathy and herbal suppliers who will sell stuf labeled as homeopathic, but which contains some level of real medicines. Goal being to get the woo dollars by calling it homeopathy, and give them a real effect by spiking it with something effective. The danger being that you don't expect homeopathy (basically water or sugar pills) to have any side effects, whereas the other stuff probably will.

Unethical as hell, just as (in my opinion) a doctor pushing homeopathy in the first place.

[MortFurd]

May I ask where in Germany you are living? No doctor ever offered the homoeostuff to me. Just one vet that offered pills for my cat. And I live here since 38 years. I go a bit further with my mistrust. If a doctor would offer the stuff to me, I would never visit him again because he is either deluded or a fraud. I wouldn´t want either of them to care about my health.

In my opinion that´s not an exaggeration for effect anymore but simply wrong, but of course you are free to use your personal style of discussion.

The “kraut” comment: Do your wife and your friends think it´s funny? Because I still don´t.
But after your explanation I fully accept that it wasn´t meant as racist as I thought it to be.
So: I apologize for putting you in the wrong corner.
Currently Rhein-Land Pfalz (~40Km from Idar-Oberstein.) Earlier in Hessen (Wiesbaden.)

Every doctor I've visited over the past twenty years has had some tendency to the woo. Some more pronounced than others. Oddly, the veteranarians were the least wooish. They just wanted to sell me special food for my cats.

[SomeGuy]

May I ask where in Germany you are living? No doctor ever offered the homoeostuff to me. Just one vet that offered pills for my cat. And I live here since 38 years. I go a bit further with my mistrust. If a doctor would offer the stuff to me, I would never visit him again because he is either deluded or a fraud. I wouldn´t want either of them to care about my health.

In my opinion that´s not an exaggeration for effect anymore but simply wrong, but of course you are free to use your personal style of discussion.

The “kraut” comment: Do your wife and your friends think it´s funny? Because I still don´t.
But after your explanation I fully accept that it wasn´t meant as racist as I thought it to be.
So: I apologize for putting you in the wrong corner.

We in the Netherlands have called Germans far worse than Kraut :-p

But then there was of course the minor disagreement over our souvereignity in1940-1945, but FAR worse than that there was the 1972 injustice!!!!

(yes this is tongue in cheeck, and yes most Dutch and Germans will know what I'm talking about)

[Georg]

We in the Netherlands have called Germans far worse than Kraut :-p

But then there was of course the minor disagreement over our souvereignity in1940-1945, but FAR worse than that there was the 1972 injustice!!!!

(yes this is tongue in cheeck, and yes most Dutch and Germans will know what I'm talking about)

The first problem was very well solved to your (and my) satisfaction, wasn´t it?
But since I was born 1969 I have no clue what the incident 1972 was, my guess is that it had something to do with soccer? That´s about the only thing that I´m aware of that somebody of the Netherlands could call worse than the war-thingy :)
Oh, and please, please clear me up on the term that is worse than "Krauts", I don´t know about that one either, and we are all here to learn, aren´t we?

[Reno]

Boxheads?

[TX50]

Here in the Netherlands I have seen many remedies labelled "Homeopathic"
but which are clearly herbal with active ingredients in large proportion. I
never go to doctors (except in ambulances) so I can't say anything about
whether they push homeopathic stuff.

Disclaimer: The following information is offered for historical interest only.

"Boxheads", "squareheads", "bosche", "dutchmen", "fritz", "jerries",
"huns", "heinies", "freddies" and those are just the British ones!
Some of them have interesting etymologies. For examples; "Freddies"
comes from Frederick the Great and dates from the 18th century,
"Jerries" dates from 1916 and refers to the shape of their steel helmets
("Jerry" being an English term for "chamber pot").

I think the Germans only used "tommies" in return, which is a bit
unimaginative.

The Dutch tended to call them "moffen", a word which I think has an
obscene connotation; but Dutch is only my third language - after English
and German (Hochdeutsch with a tiny little bit of Pfaelzisch)

[Georg]

Since the questions of the OP are nicely answered and he/she didn´t check back anyway so far, I think it´s O.K. if we go on with the derail………
Thanks Reno and TX50 for taking the time to educate me. I knew some of the words before, some were new, some of the new ones are self-explanatory, but some bring up new questions…….

Dutchmen: I thought that would be a description for people of the Netherlands, never heard that it was used for Germans as well.
And what the heck do the words “bosche” and “moffen” mean? Is somebody able to clear me up? If the explanation would be a violation of rule 8 of the membership agreement, I´d be happy with a pm. SomeGuy? TX50? Anyone else? Thank you.

[Reno]

I went skiing in Bavaria when I was in the military. Most beautiful country second only to Scotland :)

[ChristineR]

If the remedies are from a reputable old school maker like Hyland or Boiron I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to swallow 1000 of the little sugar pills.

[Georg]

I went skiing in Bavaria when I was in the military. Most beautiful country second only to Scotland :)

It is beautiful......but so……….. mmmhm………..catholic.............
When I look at your custom title I guess that this probably didn´t disturb you as much as it disturbs me:) ??

[SomeGuy]

The first problem was very well solved to your (and my) satisfaction, wasn´t it?
But since I was born 1969 I have no clue what the incident 1972 was, my guess is that it had something to do with soccer? That´s about the only thing that I´m aware of that somebody of the Netherlands could call worse than the war-thingy :)
Oh, and please, please clear me up on the term that is worse than "Krauts", I don´t know about that one either, and we are all here to learn, aren´t we?

It's indeed soccer. World Cup final to be precise.

The horrible atrocity they commited was beating us!

[Georg]

It's indeed soccer. World Cup final to be precise.

The horrible atrocity they commited was beating us!

Oh, than I can understand the anger. But to be really precise, that was 1974, not 1972:)

So, what do "bosche" and "moffen" mean?

[Deus Ex Machina]

Currently Rhein-Land Pfalz (~40Km from Idar-Oberstein.) Earlier in Hessen (Wiesbaden.)

Every doctor I've visited over the past twenty years has had some tendency to the woo. Some more pronounced than others. Oddly, the veteranarians were the least wooish. They just wanted to sell me special food for my cats.

wow that's really different from here in the US. Vets, and particularly horse vets, have got to be some of the biggest "woo-ers" around. I wish I had a dollar for every time some vet has suggested yet another supplement.

And I wish I had a dollar back for every time my wife has gone out and bought it...

[Senex]

We've been married 5yrs and she has always been into this crap... I once witnessed her pay some dude $160 bucks and he lightly touched the base of her head, surprisingly this did nothing... Do I keep fighting, do I ignore it?.... At this stage I just grin and bare it because anytime I bring up that it's total BS and she's throwing our money down the drain we end up fighting... :rolleyes:

Deprogramming sounds like new-age woo to me. Have you tried threatening her with a spanking whenever alternative therapy is mentioned in your home? Sometimes the old remedies are truly the most effective.

[eir_de_scania]

In Sweden, no doctor, nurse or vet is allowed to prescribe what's so nicely called "alternative medicine" or even "alternative methods". If you do, you might very well lose your authorization. If you're practicing any of those alternatives, you're not allowed to treat children under 8.

Of course, nothing stops parents from buying remedies from the local health food shop.

We also have politicians lobbying for the health care to be "more open". One of the arguments is "doctors prescribe homeopathic remedies in Germany", meaning we are backwards. The Swedish Health&Welfare board stubbornly insists on proper documentation before they admit any alternative remedy to become ordinary.

[JordyT]

Thanks all, I'm still a bit undecided on where to take things but atleast I'm in good company. I can now share my PAIN of this lunacy. Everytime I say the remedies are BS she's always going on about 'well it cured this for me last week and it cured that so how do you explain that?'. I try to explain placebo effect or the body healed itself etc to no avail. I think I need Randi to come over one day, he'd sort it out!

[Reno]

Randi demonstrated the ineffectiveness of homoeopathy by eating a whole bottle of pills live on stage.

Follow my earlier suggestion and your wife will think again.

[MortFurd]

In Sweden, no doctor, nurse or vet is allowed to prescribe what's so nicely called "alternative medicine" or even "alternative methods". If you do, you might very well lose your authorization. If you're practicing any of those alternatives, you're not allowed to treat children under 8.

Of course, nothing stops parents from buying remedies from the local health food shop.

We also have politicians lobbying for the health care to be "more open". One of the arguments is "doctors prescribe homeopathic remedies in Germany", meaning we are backwards. The Swedish Health&Welfare board stubbornly insists on proper documentation before they admit any alternative remedy to become ordinary.

I'd take it as evidence that Germany is backwards, since they haven't let go of the woo yet. Homeopathy has been around a long time, and there's been no evidence yet that it works.

Yay, Sweden and evidence based medicine!

[Senex]

Thanks all, I'm still a bit undecided on where to take things but atleast I'm in good company. I can now share my PAIN of this lunacy. Everytime I say the remedies are BS she's always going on about 'well it cured this for me last week and it cured that so how do you explain that?'. I try to explain placebo effect or the body healed itself etc to no avail. I think I need Randi to come over one day, he'd sort it out!

No, clearly you have not taught your wife anything. It would do you and your wife better if I came over one day instead of Randi. Randi sticks to logical explanations -- I can demonstrate the benefits of domestic discipline.

Private Message me