Fact or Fiction? Colon Cleansing and Benefits

[mikex1337]

Hello, I recently purchased a couple of colon cleansers (http://www.dualactioncleansenow.com) from TV infomercials like Colonix and Dual Action Cleanse. Before you jump all over me and say that I am a gullible goon, I really had some problems with constipation... Doesn't the term "colon blow" just sound refreshing to you?

The fact is, though, that the products didn't work as well as I predicted. I mean, it did make me go to the bathroom, but a week later I am still not experiencing the full benefits of colon cleansing.

If anyone else has had experience with colon cleansing products, please share them on here, whether they are good or bad. I want some experts to bust the myth or support the fact about the practicality of colon cleansers. And please avoid spitting the same repeated arguments that we see all over medical forums... Thanks in advance.

[SomeGuy]

Hello, I recently purchased a couple of colon cleansers (http://www.dualactioncleansenow.com) from TV infomercials like Colonix and Dual Action Cleanse. Before you jump all over me and say that I am a gullible goon, I really had some problems with constipation... Doesn't the term "colon blow" just sound refreshing to you?

The fact is, though, that the products didn't work as well as I predicted. I mean, it did make me go to the bathroom, but a week later I am still not experiencing the full benefits of colon cleansing.

If anyone else has had experience with colon cleansing products, please share them on here, whether they are good or bad. I want some experts to bust the myth or support the fact about the practicality of colon cleansers. And please avoid spitting the same repeated arguments that we see all over medical forums... Thanks in advance.


What is it about those arguments that are not to your liking?

Personally I don't understand what would be so good about an empty colon,....

I have heard from others that either a coffee klisma, or wheatgrass can also do a lot to at least empty your bowels.

Only thing I know for sure that works is starting to go into labour, the woman's body seems to completely empty itself.

[Lisa Simpson]

I love products that say they "detoxify" but yet never tell you what toxins they get rid of.

If you are constipated, eat more insoluble fiber.

[mikex1337]

I love products that say they "detoxify" but yet never tell you what toxins they get rid of.

If you are constipated, eat more insoluble fiber.

Here is why I bought the colon cleansing products for my constipation. This is a quote from Dual Action Cleanse (http://www.dualactioncleansenow.com)'s official website:
Cleansing often results in weight loss due to elimination of built-up fecal matter. Cleansing can help improve the assimilation of essential nutrients through a well-balanced healthy eating plan. Exercise should be a part of your daily routine along with Dual Action Cleanse.

But you are right, if I had the patience I should eat more fiber. But that's besides the point... I want to crack at the truth of colon cleansing.

Thanks for your inputs.

[mikex1337]

What is it about those arguments that are not to your liking?

Personally I don't understand what would be so good about an empty colon,....

I have heard from others that either a coffee klisma, or wheatgrass can also do a lot to at least empty your bowels.

Only thing I know for sure that works is starting to go into labour, the woman's body seems to completely empty itself.

Well, first of all I don't like the idea of ingesting all this synthetic stuff.. which is one main reason why I don't like drinking Red Bull. And also I am feeling some pain in my stomach. And it only temporarily relieved my constipation problems. :(

[MortFurd]

Hello, I recently purchased a couple of colon cleansers (http://www.dualactioncleansenow.com) from TV infomercials like Colonix and Dual Action Cleanse. Before you jump all over me and say that I am a gullible goon, I really had some problems with constipation... Doesn't the term "colon blow" just sound refreshing to you?

The fact is, though, that the products didn't work as well as I predicted. I mean, it did make me go to the bathroom, but a week later I am still not experiencing the full benefits of colon cleansing.

If anyone else has had experience with colon cleansing products, please share them on here, whether they are good or bad. I want some experts to bust the myth or support the fact about the practicality of colon cleansers. And please avoid spitting the same repeated arguments that we see all over medical forums... Thanks in advance.
In a word:
Crap.

Were there gunk built up in your colon, you'd have more trouble than some unspecified "toxins." If the inside of your guts were permanently line with some crud, you wouldn't be able to absorb nutrients properly. You'd probably start to lose weight despite eating like a pig.

If you're getting stopped up often enough to seek help for it, you need to see one of the doctors you seem to scorn. There's either something wrong with your gut (that washing it isn't goinf to fix) or you've got a dietary problem (and washing your gut won't help that, either.)

I've had a "colon cleansing" the like of which your hokey products couldn't touch. It didn't make me feel energetic and clean inside. It made me feel hungry and weak. To get things clean, you have to not eat for a couple of days, and take stuff to wash you out. By the time I was done, I was "crapping" clear, yellowish water. I don't recommend you do this just because you want a clean backside. I was being prepared for a colonoscopy. The doctor needs to be able to see the lining of your gut, and by gosh that's just what he got.

[Lisa Simpson]

There is no such thing as fecal build-up. Don't you think surgeons (particularly emergency room surgeons) would have noticed and reported on such build-up had they seen it?

[MortFurd]

Well, first of all I don't like the idea of ingesting all this synthetic stuff.. which is one main reason why I don't like drinking Red Bull. And also I am feeling some pain in my stomach. And it only temporarily relieved my constipation problems. :(
Coffee isn't synthetic.

If you've got pain in your stomach and constipation, you don't need to cleanse your colon. You need to see a doctor and find out what the problem is.

If you keep farking around you might wait until it is too late to do something simple but effective, and you could wind up in the hospital for treatment of a blocked colon or something - how the F would I know? How the F would you know, for that fact?

You're not a doctor, you don't have the training to know what could be wrong. If it is serious enough for you to spend your bucks on, isn't serious enough to have checked properly?

[mikex1337]

Thanks for your insightful comments. I need to reconsider and stop "farking" around. :)

By the way, I found this thread on this forum which is relevant to colon cleansing discussions: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=46457

[fls]

Hello, I recently purchased a couple of colon cleansers (http://www.dualactioncleansenow.com) from TV infomercials like Colonix and Dual Action Cleanse. Before you jump all over me and say that I am a gullible goon, I really had some problems with constipation... Doesn't the term "colon blow" just sound refreshing to you?

:)

The fact is, though, that the products didn't work as well as I predicted. I mean, it did make me go to the bathroom, but a week later I am still not experiencing the full benefits of colon cleansing.

What benefits were you expecting?

If anyone else has had experience with colon cleansing products, please share them on here, whether they are good or bad. I want some experts to bust the myth or support the fact about the practicality of colon cleansers.

There is very little need or use for these products, except in fairly specific circumstances (e.g. as preparation for a diagnostic test). The marketing of these products to the general consumer mostly consists of quite profound misinformation.

And please avoid spitting the same repeated arguments that we see all over medical forums... Thanks in advance.

I don't understand this comment. The reason that you will see the same arguments coming from medical experts should be obvious...

Linda

[kellyb]

I've always found that drinking a LOT of apple juice borders on miraculous for clearing up constipation.

Because of the fact that colon cleanse stuff advertises so much woo, I wouldn't even trust them to be effective for their most basic function.

[JJM]

You can find more on the nonsense of “detoxification” and “colon cleansing” here:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/10/your_friday_dose_of_woo_these_boots_were_1.php (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/10/your_friday_dose_of_woo_these_boots_were_1.php)

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/detox.html (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/detox.html)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9252839&dopt=Abstract (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9252839&dopt=Abstract) It seems, therefore, that ignorance is celebrating a triumph over science.

http://www.alleghanyregional.com/healthcontent.asp?page=/choice/demonstration/TheNaturalPharmacist-Consumer (http://www.alleghanyregional.com/healthcontent.asp?page=/choice/demonstration/TheNaturalPharmacist-Consumer) In general, there is little to no scientific support for detoxification methods.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/gastro.html (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/gastro.html)

[TX50]

Thanks for a great new insult. For example:

"Yah, go to hell you colon blow!" :D

[Dark Jaguar]

All I can add is: What's wrong with synthetic? The process of synthesis creates many wonderful things, and when you say "synthesis" instead of "synthetic" doesn't it sound almost magical? Instead of saying artificial, say "artifice", and it sounds legendary. Instead of "unnatural", say "super natural", as both are inaccurate descriptions of science created stuff but the latter sounds cooler.

My point is this. Stuff we humans didn't really have much of a hand in can be both good for us and bad for us. Stuff we humans did have a hand in can be both good for us and bad for us. That alone should tell you that something being "synthetic" is irrelevent to it's health value.

[ksbluesfan]

You can get a Fleet kit at the drug store for a couple of bucks. I think it's mainly phospha-soda. I had to do that before a colonoscopy once, and I hated it. The colon cleansing was far worse than the colonoscopy. I can't imagine why anybody would intentionally do that to themself. It didn't make me feel better in any way.

[Starthinker]

You can get a Fleet kit at the drug store for a couple of bucks. I think it's mainly phospha-soda. I had to do that before a colonoscopy once, and I hated it. The colon cleansing was far worse than the colonoscopy. I can't imagine why anybody would intentionally do that to themself. It didn't make me feel better in any way.

As a recipient of multiple colonoscopys I agree. The worse part is they sell them in pairs because you're supposed to rinse and repeat.

[skeptigirl]

Re: that "please avoid spitting the same repeated arguments that we see all over medical forums..."

Would that mean you don't want to hear the evidence based answers, only the false claims?

Or does it mean you know "colon cleansing" is no more than a fancy word for an enema and the term is used to make the consumer think they are actually getting something more, so we needn't repeat that?

I'll just give you two comments of caution, and yes they are repeated on medical forums, sorry, that's what evidence based medicine is all about.

One, things are absorbed rectally. We give medications via suppositories because they are absorbed through the rectum/colon. So whatever you are squirting up your *** you are essentially swallowing in more ways that mere gullibility.

And two, whatever you have self diagnosed as "constipation" could be anything from actual constipation, to an obsessive compulsive disorder leading you to an obsession about having bowel movements (very common neurosis in the elderly), to something much more serious such as colon cancer.

Since the enema you tried didn't help, something other than simple constipation is certainly worthy of consideration. When my elderly mother tells me she feel "bloated" and to her that means constipated, I know she probably has a bladder infection.

[ponderingturtle]

I am just trying to figure out what the goal here is.

If it is to deal with constipation, this might work, but so would laxatives and in the long term a change in diet. If you need enema's to manage constipation see a doctor, sure it might well be necessary but it is unlikely(I remember some nursing home patients had fleet enema's as a scheduled event, but such individuals would be unlikely to be posting on the internet)

It could also be for sexual anal play, and then that is not really about supposed health benefits is it?

[Starthinker]

The fact is, though, that the products didn't work as well as I predicted. I mean, it did make me go to the bathroom, but a week later I am still not experiencing the full benefits of colon cleansing.

Probably because in that week, you ate something.

[Biglug]

Just say no to ingesting bentonite+psylium.

[Gravy]

You can get a Fleet kit at the drug store for a couple of bucks. I think it's mainly phospha-soda.I was recently on line behind a guy in a bodega who purchased 4 Fleet enemas and two large cups of coffee. I moved to the side a little bit....

[fuelair]

Could I just drop in a casual,''GO see your Physician NOW!!" about here?

[Darth Rotor]

Did the adds for the stuff refer to colon plaque (http://www.cleanse.net/mucoid_plaque.HTM)?

I saw an informercial a few weeks back about weight loss that "wasn't a diauretic, but cleansed colon plaque" and the name was ACOR7 or something with a seven in it.

I changed the channel, but the picture the guy used remains in memory.

Skeptical? Sure. When it is sold by an infomercial, and I look up colon plaque on Googol and find a lot of 'this is rubbish' entries, I'd guess that this is more sales pitch than medicine.

Oatmeal and shredded wheat, alternate days, for breakfast, and you can't go wrong. Well, that's what DR suggests, but I am not a doctor, I merely stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last month. ;)

DR

[ChristineR]

I've had a colonoscopy. I'd rather do three of those intestinal cleanse weeks than go through THAT again. The "preparation" part was not an issue for me.

I've also done some of those intestinal cleanses. Some people say they feel better when they do them. I didn't. All that ugly stuff that comes out (if it comes out) is intestinal cleanse. Fiber and clay in the gut...well, 'nough said there.

There is no evidence of colon plague, or built up toxins, or that kind of thing. The guys with 40 lbs of build-up and impacted colons are in serious trouble and not complaining about bloat and inability to lose weight.

[parrotslave]

I'll just echo the eat plenty of fiber and drink plenty of water, not counting sodas or coffee, to stay regular.

Colon cleansers are better at cleaning out your wallet than anything else.

[DRBUZZ0]

I could totally see how colon cleansing might be useful and help remove toxins if you had somehow put toxins into your colon. I'm not sure how that would happen, but lets say... just for example... that you had just given yourself several enemas made up of a combination of antifreeze and asbestos.

Well, in that case, having your colon immediately and thoroughly flushed out could very well be just what the doctor ordered!

For the rest of us... um... true, there is nasty and smelly stuff in your colon, but that's just kinda the way it is. It comes out on it's own...

[Wainscotting]

There's not much I can add that hasn't already been said, except to lend my vote towards those sceptical of colon cleansers. Some colonics can be dangerous. People have been known to drown from them, and putting coffee or anything in there that hasn't been digested could go straight into the blood stream and cause all sorts of problems.

There are the detox kits that you ingest orally, but they don't do anything either. The whole detox thing is a myth that has never had any research supporting it. Some fibre-based detox kits make a mould of the intestine, making you think that it was faecal deposits, but it's all a farce.

The intestines are very adept at moving things through them. If they got clogged up with putrefying faecal matter, blocking the tract from absorbing nutrients, then we would by dead.

Detox and Colonic are just a big pile of the very thing that they claim to remove.

[epepke]

I could totally see how colon cleansing might be useful and help remove toxins if you had somehow put toxins into your colon. I'm not sure how that would happen, but lets say... just for example... that you had just given yourself several enemas made up of a combination of antifreeze and asbestos.

Oh, no! Now there will be an infomercial selling antifreeze and asbestos enemas.

[Wainscotting]

Oh, no! Now there will be an infomercial selling antifreeze and asbestos enemas.

"Cleanse your system and shake off those winter chills" :newlol

[mhaze]

The Texas Attorney General recently shut down a number of companies making these "colon cleansing" claims.

[Wolfman]

Well...

...I'll offer something a little different to this debate. By and large, I'd agree with most of the comments here, especially the ones about "fecal buildup" (complete nonsense) and removing toxins. And I'd be particularly cautious about home enema kits.

On the other side, I have a friend who goes to Thailand twice every year, for week-long treatments at a health spa which include daily colonic cleansings. The first time he went there was three years ago, and for a very specific reason -- he was excessively flatulent, producing huge amounts of gas every day, regardless of what he ate. He had gone to a number of different doctors for treatment, with no results. Changes to his diet also had no result.

Out of desperation, he went to this clinic in Thailand on the recommendation of a friend, not expecting much; but after one week of treatments, his flatulence disappeared (or rather, was reduced to 'normal' levels), and he has not had the problem since.

His theory (which seems reasonable to me) is that there were bacteria in his intestines that were causing the excessive flatulence; and that the medicated treatments he received effectively killed/removed those bacteria.

Thus, I believe that there is a valid argument to be made for at least some positive benefits from such a treatment; but would consider the majority to be nonsense. Those home products can be rather risky...you aren't sure what the ingredients are, and you could botch it up. But if done at a reputable clinic, while it may not actually produce many positive results, it won't hurt, either.

[skeptigirl]

I sincerely doubt, Wolfman, that you can wash bacteria out of your colon. I would suggest your friend changed his diet at the same time as the trip. It isn't the bacteria that cause flatulence alone, it is undigested food making it's way to the colon. The bacteria generally make gas because of the food source, not because of the bacteria strains. Not that all bacteria produce the same byproduct gases, but pretty much the ones in everyone's colons do, given the chance.

Answers.com (http://www.howstuffworks.com/question46.htm)Flatulence occurs when a food does not break down completely in the stomach and small intestine. As a result, the food makes it into the large intestine in an undigested state. For example, if you are "lactose intolerant," it means that you lack an enzyme (lactase) in your intestine -- the enzyme that breaks lactose apart into two sugar molecules so they can enter the bloodstream. Without lactase, lactose passes undigested through the stomach and small intestine and arrives in the large intestine.

There, the lactose meets up with billions of hungry bacteria -- the natural "intestinal fauna" we all have in our large intestine. These bacteria are happy to digest lactose. They produce a variety of gases, in much the way that yeast produces carbon dioxide to leaven bread (see How Bread Works for details on yeast). Gases such as methane, hydrogen and hydrogen sulfide are common gases that these bacteria produce. Hydrogen sulfide is the source of the odor we associate with flatulence.

Certain foods produce more flatulence than others because they contain more indigestible carbohydrates than others. Beans, as you might expect, are particularly well-endowed in this regard.

The thing people are missing in this absurd health craze is the stuff in your colon is moving in one direction. Period. It doesn't mull around and gunk up the works. The mucosal walls from your esophagus to your anus excrete as much as they absorb. The walls of your colon do not need cleaning. That is silly. Fecal material can become dry. Peristalsis can slow. Your intestine can become obstructed. And you have to literally clean and rinse your intestine out in order to see everything with a colonoscopy.

But just what is it you think you are accomplishing by colonic irrigations? Washing your colon? That's absurd. As long as feces are passing through normally, there is plenty of mucus and liquids being excreted from the mucosa to prevent anything from staying on the colon walls.

[Wolfman]

Skeptigirl,

A) My friend had changed his diet numerous times before this, under the guidance of specialists, with no effect whatsoever. This had gone on for more than a year prior to his going to the clinic in Thailand.

B) He did not make any changes to his diet afterwards (at least, no changes that had not already been made); he ate exactly the same things he had eaten before going to the clinic, but now produced only normal levels flatulus.

C) The clinic he goes to don't just use water, they use various medicines; nowhere in my post did I say that bacteria were washed out, which I agree would be a ridiculous claim. Please read. A good skeptic doesn't just jump top conclusions about the claims being made, or distort them.

Let me stress here that my friend went to a number of specialists, for over a year, prior to this treatment; not one of them was able to come up with an effective solution.

This particular solution worked. I don't see how it could be attributed to a placebo effect, as if a placebo effect would have worked, it would have manifested itself earlier in his treatments, when he received treatments that he believed would work (but did not); yet in this case, he held little hope that the treatment would work (and it did).

I appreciate your skepticism; and freely admit that the bacteria theory may not be correct. But the fact remains that this treatment yielded positive results when other, "established" methods failed to do so. I'm no big proponent of woo, but your readiness to simply dismiss this and attribute it to some theory you prefer -- such as change in diet -- without any evidence thereof (and with stated facts that directly contradict that conclusion) are more worthy of a woo theory themselves, than a logical examination of the actual situation.

[Wolfman]

Skeptigirl,

I appreciate that you'll want evidence for such a claim, so did a little searching online; I quickly found at least one condition, "Small Intestine Bacterial Overgrowth (http://www.medicinenet.com/small_intestinal_bacterial_overgrowth/page2.htm#tocd)", in which excessive gas production is one of the symptoms, and is directly attributable to the bacteria. I'm fairly confident that I could find more such examples if I looked.

[kellyb]

Skeptigirl,

I appreciate that you'll want evidence for such a claim, so did a little searching online; I quickly found at least one condition, "Small Intestine Bacterial Overgrowth (http://www.medicinenet.com/small_intestinal_bacterial_overgrowth/page2.htm#tocd)", in which excessive gas production is one of the symptoms, and is directly attributable to the bacteria. I'm fairly confident that I could find more such examples if I looked.

That's a different intestine, though. A colon cleanse wouldn't reach the small intestine, anyway.


ETA:
On the other side, I have a friend who goes to Thailand twice every year, for week-long treatments at a health spa which include daily colonic cleansings.
That sounds really expensive. The health spa has to be doing more than just giving him colon cleanses. There could be all kinds of other factors at play, starting with coincidental effects, all the way up to antibiotic drinks he's given throughout the week. Who knows what's really going on over there? Could be anything.

His theory (which seems reasonable to me) is that there were bacteria in his intestines that were causing the excessive flatulence; and that the medicated treatments he received effectively killed/removed those bacteria.

They didn't even tell him what was wrong with him?
They just told him they were going to flush some mystery herbs/"medicine" up his butt to cure....something???
He never asked them what was wrong with him?
I believe you that you're telling the story as truthfully as possible, but this is a really, really weird tale.

[Wolfman]

That's a different intestine, though. A colon cleanse wouldn't reach the small intestine, anyway.
Yup; I was only demonstrating the principle that bacteria can be a cause of excessive flatulence. I'm not interested enough in this subject to do an exhaustive search of the literature, just wanted to share one friend's experience.

[kellyb]

Yup; I was only demonstrating the principle that bacteria can be a cause of excessive flatulence. I'm not interested enough in this subject to do an exhaustive search of the literature, just wanted to share one friend's experience.

I did get curious and look to see if there's anything remotely similar that can happen with the large intestine, and I was unable to find anything.
So for now, I'm still thinking, whatever is happening with your friend, it's not twice a year enemas healing his excessive gas.

[Wolfman]

:-)

Okay, to clarify -- I'm not stating unequivocably that it was a bacterial thing; that was one potential theory, and I'm happy to admit it could be wrong.

Also, I don't think that going twice a year is having any real long-term effect for him; after the first time, when the flatulence disappeared, it never recurred. Whatever was causing it seems to have been eliminated, and I don't think that further treatments are making any difference.

My basic position was that there was some condition -- an infection, something wrong with the intestines, etc. -- which responded positively to medications in the fluids that were used for 'cleansing' his colon.

This guy suffered for almost two years from excessive gas. It not only caused him significant pain, but it was terribly embarrassing, also. He sought professional treatment from specialists for quite some time, with no results.

Yet, after one week at this spa, the condition disappeared, and never returned again.

Now, I know that people here will tend to dismiss anything that they consider to fall into a "woo" category out of hand. They will not even bother to examine evidence to the contrary, since there is no need -- they've already decided it must be wrong, and therefore can dismiss any contrary arguments.

However, in this case, I'd advance the theory that it is at least possible that this treatment was, in fact, responsible for his recovery; and that the evidence supports that claim. I don't mind people disagreeing with me, and have acknowledged my own claim could be wrong; what I mind is people who claim to combat "woo", but who in fact use exactly the same methods as the "woo-masses" to support their own position. ie. they ignore any/all evidence to the contrary, and insist that their interpretation must be the correct one.

In the end, this is a "debate" which can have no real resolution, at least so far as I can tell. But I have pretty consistently been anti-woo in all of my posts in these forums, have never supported any theory that is even remotely woo-ish. I have no agenda in posting this, nothing to gain by convincing people that a completely useless therapy actually works.

All I am doing is presenting the facts from an isolated situation, and asking that they be considered. I simply don't see how administration of medicines via the colon can be dismissed out of hand as the potential cause of the elimination of a terribly embarrassing and uncomfortable condition, when all evidence available indicates that this is exactly what happened.

I guess that it is possible that it was entirely a coincidence. That, after two years of uninterrupted suffering and countless "proven and scientific" treatments failed to work, that it just suddenly disappeared entirely on its own, and that it coincided by accident with the time that he was at this clinic.

But any person interested in truth -- and not simply saying, "I don't believe it, therefore it couldn't have happened" -- would at least look at the situation, and consider the possibility. Occam's Razor would indicate here that the most obvious answer is that the treatment was responsible for the cure. If you disagree, fine...but I'd prefer to see more than "I don't believe it". Or misrepresenting my statements (such as "washed out the bacteria"). Or suggesting solutions that I've already stated are not the case (such as change in diet).

[Biglug]

I don't mind people disagreeing with me, and have acknowledged my own claim could be wrong; what I mind is people who claim to combat "woo", but who in fact use exactly the same methods as the "woo-masses" to support their own position. ie. they ignore any/all evidence to the contrary, and insist that their interpretation must be the correct one.

I have noticed this trend as well on this board. Critical thinking and skepticism involves stepping through the logic, examination of the facts, and only then coming to a conclusion.

I am often alarmed when an idea is dismissed soley due to lack of evidence when I see no logical argument to support the dismissal. Blindly dismissing all ideas on lack of evidence prohibits investigation and modes of discovery. If there are no modes of discovery then progress in understanding is not advanced.

[JJM]

{snip}
But any person interested in truth -- and not simply saying, "I don't believe it, therefore it couldn't have happened" -- would at least look at the situation, and consider the possibility. Occam's Razor would indicate here that the most obvious answer is that the treatment was responsible for the cure. If you disagree, fine...but I'd prefer to see more than "I don't believe it". Or misrepresenting my statements (such as "washed out the bacteria"). Or suggesting solutions that I've already stated are not the case (such as change in diet).Scroll up and read the articles I cited. Advances in knowledge of anatomy and physiology led to the abandonment of "detoxification" 80 years ago. We are not simply disbelieving, we have a lot of data.

And, yes, your friend could have coincidentally gotten better in time with the "treatment." What makes more sense, cure by a thoroughly discredited method, or the problem just resolved itself? I heard a story from a guy who went to a specialist with a complaint and the doctor told him to wait a little longer. He asked what might be wrong, and the doctor replied it could be a brain tumor. On the drive home, the guy realized that his problem had gone away.

When you read the medical experts, you will also see that "colonics" are sometimes disabling (for example, perforation of the bowel and potentially fatal infection). I would never accept a dangerous, but sham, treatment.

[fuelair]

But, if you really need a cleaned colon try the vegetarian version of Cthulhu's Colon Cleanser: 2 lb pinto beans, water per package instructions in crockpot.Start on High, turn to low once pot starts bubbling and cook until beans are tender, add small amount of water - if needed - and 1/4 lb. chopped green peppers and 1/4 pound chopped Habanero peppers and 1/4 lb. chopped chipotle peppers + salt to taste & comino to taste. Continue cooking on Low until you are hungry. Eat.

You will be cleansed. It will be messy.

[JJM]

Potential Dangers of Colonics:
Colonic irrigation can potentially cause severe adverse effects and must be carefully administered. People receiving frequent treatments may absorb too much water, leading to electrolyte imbalances in the blood, nausea, vomiting, heart failure, fluid in the lungs, abnormal heart rhythms or coma. Infections have been reported, possibly because of contaminated equipment or as a result of clearing out normal colon bacteria. There is a risk of bowel perforation (breakage of the bowel wall), which is a severe complication. Deaths have been reported.

Colonic irrigation should not be used in people with diverticulitis, ulcerative colitis, Crohn's disease, severe or internal hemorrhoids or tumors in the rectum or colon. It also should not be used soon after bowel surgery (unless directed by your health care provider). Regular treatments should be avoided by people with heart disease or kidney disease (renal insufficiency). Be sure that the equipment used is sterile and that the practitioner is experienced. Colonic irrigation should not be used as the sole treatment (instead of more proven therapies) for severe conditions, and it should not delay consultation with a qualified health care provider for a potentially severe symptom or illness.
http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/8513/34968/358752.html?d=dmtContent (http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/8513/34968/358752.html?d=dmtContent)

[kellyb]

Wolfman,
Your story just doesn't have enough information for any judgments to really be drawn one way or another.
All we know is that your friend had bad gas, doctors couldn't help, he went to some health spa in Thailand where they gave him daily mystery enemas for a week, and probably did other things, too, but we don't know what those other things might be.
And when he came home, he was (apparently) better.
The fact that he's now returning twice a year for "maintanance enemas" makes me think they've put a woo-doo spell on him of some kind, but that's just my opinion. :)
Either way, there are too many unknowns here for any conclusions to be drawn. This kind of anecdote, if it's evidence at all (which can probably be debated) is certainly not strong enough to support colonic cleansings in general. At best, there's a health spa in Thailand that might be on to something, and that something could be anything.

[skeptigirl]

I have noticed this trend as well on this board. Critical thinking and skepticism involves stepping through the logic, examination of the facts, and only then coming to a conclusion.

I am often alarmed when an idea is dismissed soley due to lack of evidence when I see no logical argument to support the dismissal. Blindly dismissing all ideas on lack of evidence prohibits investigation and modes of discovery. If there are no modes of discovery then progress in understanding is not advanced.Well let's just look at what you are calling "blindly dismissing".

Bacteria cannot produce gas without a source of food. So regardless of the bacterial component in the "friend's" problem, the source of food was still a requirement.

Given that a source of food was part of the equation, that same source of food would still be present and any number of bacterial strains would produce the same gas.

Anecdotal reports are useful in research but they are subject to many limitations. The best use of anecdotal reports is to systematically collect reports. The least reliable are those which are volunteered. The latter are subject to the common phenomena of selective memory. In addition, the latter are subject to "filling in the answers" when questioned.

I have heard any number of people swear they tried this or that for some problem, nothing worked, then they went to [fill in the blank] or did/took [fill in the blank] and they were immediately better. While this would seem to be compelling evidence, substantial research on [whoever they went to or whatever they did/took] establishes the 'thing' has no such action. So having an individual swear 'this' occurred, 'that' caused it, they are sure of it, is just not, by itself, compelling evidence.

[Biglug]

Kellyb's post is the right way to go about it.

[fuelair]

Wolfman,
Your story just doesn't have enough information for any judgments to really be drawn one way or another.
All we know is that your friend had bad gas, doctors couldn't help, he went to some health spa in Thailand where they gave him daily mystery enemas for a week, and probably did other things, too, but we don't know what those other things might be.
And when he came home, he was (apparently) better.
The fact that he's now returning twice a year for "maintanance enemas" makes me think they've put a woo-doo spell on him of some kind, but that's just my opinion. :)
Either way, there are too many unknowns here for any conclusions to be drawn. This kind of anecdote, if it's evidence at all (which can probably be debated) is certainly not strong enough to support colonic cleansings in general. At best, there's a health spa in Thailand that might be on to something, and that something could be anything.

Possibly the colonic cleanser they use includes optimal organic opium as a component - that would certainly be one way to explain twice a year trips for a big poot toot!

[Wolfman]

In fear of accidentally presenting erroneous information, I contacted the friend involved in this situation, and referred him to this thread. He sent me the following response, and said that I could feel free to post it.

It turns out I was both right and wrong in my stated facts:
Thanks for your spirited 'defense' of my condition, but I'm afraid you don't have all the facts quite straight. To begin with, I've had IBS (irritable bowel syndrome) for many years; in addition to that, six months prior to my first visit to the spa in Thailand, I also developed SIBO (which you mentioned in one of your posts). The combination of the two caused significant problems, not just with flatulence, but also diarrhea, cramping, etc.

The SIBO diagnosis was not immediate. At first, it was theorized that I had parasites (and I'd like to note for those who are commenting on this that parasites can also be a cause of excessive flatulence, and that anti-parasitical drugs administered via enema can be effective in treating them), and received treatment for that, with no effect. I then received treatment for SIBO, which had some moderate success initially; but the strain of bacteria that were causing the problem were resistant to the drugs being used, and the problem quickly returned. The doctors then told me that they could use stronger medications, but that those medications were less targeted, and would end up killing other beneficial bacteria in my intestines, which could result in even greater discomfort and problems, at least until the proper balance was restored.

My doctor (not a friend) then recommended this spa in Thailand; they use enemas to administer a variety of drugs that treat different conditions, and he had found it to be effective in treating SIBO with previous patients. I decided to give it a shot (hey, it was an excuse to spend a week at a luxury spa in Thailand!), and to my surprise, it worked.

kellyb, in her response, notes that "cleansing" would not reach the small intestine, and she's correct. However, I did not go for a colonic cleansing, I went for a medical enema. As with suppositories, it is perfectly possible for medications inserted into the intestine (be it suppository or enema) to be absorbed into the blood, and delivered to other parts of the body. If it makes people more comfortable, instead of using the terms "enema" or "colonic cleansing", perhaps you could call it a "liquid suppository".

The result was that my SIBO disappeared completely, and never returned. I see no reason to think it was not a result of this treatment, nor do I consider it to be on par with new age or holistic treatments, about which I am also skeptical. In regards to returning every six months, I have also found this treatment to be quite beneficial for my IBS. While it does not cure it, it significantly reduces the symptoms and discomfort I usually suffer from. (and it was treatment for the IBS that caused me to try different diets, not the SIBO) I have no way to "prove" that it actually has a medical basis, and perhaps it could be argued that beneficial effects are purely a result of wishful thinking on my part (the placebo effect). The spa I go to has a host of different enemas they use, depending on the specific condition, and while I'm sure that some of them have little or no effect, I personally feel that in regards to the treatment of my SIBO and IBS, it has been very effective and useful.

[kellyb]

I'd really like to know what they put in there...
It could be a strong antibiotic...maybe an opium/antibiotic mix? :)

ETA:
In all seriousness, there's a theory that IBS is actually often caused by a form of SIBO, so if that's actually the case, and if the "suppository flush" contains antibiotics, we might have something plausible going on.

So...yeah. It's possible the Thialand health spa is onto something...

[mhaze]

I have noticed this trend as well on this board. Critical thinking and skepticism involves stepping through the logic, examination of the facts, and only then coming to a conclusion.

I am often alarmed when an idea is dismissed soley due to lack of evidence when I see no logical argument to support the dismissal. Blindly dismissing all ideas on lack of evidence prohibits investigation and modes of discovery. If there are no modes of discovery then progress in understanding is not advanced.

Not true, if big cash is being charged for bogus cures.

[Wolfman]

skeptigirl,

I appreciate and agree with your comments regarding anecdotal stories; but while they do not prove anything, neither can they be dismissed as "must be wrong" simply because they are anecdotal, or do not fit with your own theories.

In regards to bacteria producing gas, SIBO produces excessive flatulence pretty much regardless of what kinds of food you eat (unless you stop eating entirely). And as my friend mentioned, parasites can also be a cause of excessive flatulence. Neither of these fit into the neat little framework of "acceptable" explanations which you seem to cling to.

kellyb,

I agree that there was not enough information, which is why I asked my friend to clarify the situation as best he could. I'd also like to mention that the spa he goes to is a luxury spa which, besides the enemas, also has massage therapy, mud baths, and a plethora of other activities that are extremely relaxing and enjoyable. So I wouldn't attribute "woo-ish" thinking as a sole or prime cause (in fact, if I could come up with a decent "medical" excuse to go there twice a year, I'd happily do so).

And please note the explanation about the medications being absorbed by the intestine, the same as a suppository, for how such a treatment could effectively treat SIBO.

Again, I acknowledge that this could all be wrong -- but the way that it was dismissed out of hand, even ignoring plainly stated facts, is far from being a true "skeptic's" approach to such a situation. I know for a fact that medications are routinely (and effectively) administered via suppositories; so fail to see why the idea of medications being administered via enema should fall immediately into "woo" territory.

[kellyb]

And please note the explanation about the medications being absorbed by the intestine, the same as a suppository, for how such a treatment could effectively treat SIBO.

It ceases to be a "colon cleansing" at that point, though. And colon cleansings are the original subject of this thread. And they are almost certainly woo.

[Wolfman]

kelly,

Yup...and that's where I acknowledge being wrong in my initial post :-) It was likely assigning the label of "colon cleansing" that caused much of the opposition. That said, as a result of all of this, my friend has invited me to come with him on his next trip to the spa...so may be able to give a more first-hand report of any benefits ;)

However, perhaps it ought to inspire some caution in automatically dismissing all treatments that seem to fall into this category.

[skeptigirl]

Not to offend you, Wolfman, because you are human and because you obviously care about the actual evidence, but your further investigation into the matter illustrates what I said about unsolicited anecdotes. People naturally want to be believed and to be correct. So they also tend to fill in the answers when questioned as you apparently did. It is a human behavior. I'm sure I've done it myself perhaps more so before becoming aware of the phenomena than now, but nonetheless I am human as well.

I again challenge this claim, "neither can they be dismissed as "must be wrong" simply because they are anecdotal, or do not fit with your own theories", just as I challenged the claim I was in any way, "Blindly dismissing all ideas on lack of evidence prohibits investigation and modes of discovery". That is an easy excuse to ignore contradictory evidence to one's own beliefs.

I stated why I did not find the evidence convincing. Address my reasons all you what. But claiming I am dismissing anything out of hand is simply ignoring why I am unconvinced.

Being convinced something cured whatever is not convincing evidence because being convinced can be shown to be unequivocally unreliable.

[Biglug]

That is an easy excuse to ignore contradictory evidence to one's own beliefs.

My belief is that conclusions cannot be made without going through the logic step by step and examining the facts. You made conclusions that agreed with your own beliefs (change in diet) rather than with the evidence that was presented (a visit to the clinic).

My judgement is that there's not enough evidence to come to a conclusion. Kellyb's logical approach and lack of conclusions kept the investigation open. As time went by, more details were revealed about the visit by Wolfman's friend. This led to a shift from colon cleansing to medication via suppository.

Y followed X so X must be investigated to determine if it caused Y. To me, colonic cleansing didn't make logical sense however the facts at the time pointed to the spa/clinic visit causing physical relief. Therefore, the spa at that point could not be blindly dismissed out of hand until more information was brought to light.

[JJM]

However, perhaps it ought to inspire some caution in automatically dismissing all treatments that seem to fall into this category.No, I think we have established that we can automatically dismiss "colon cleansing" and "detoxification" by quacks. You are right, though, that if you said your friend went to a spa and they did something (uncertain) and he got better- that requires more information and consideration.

[skeptigirl]

Biglug, I provided a source of evidence for my conclusion on the cause of gas.

I explained why the conclusion the visit to the clinic caused the effect was unconvincing.

Your interpretation of the thought process I went through before posting my comments is incorrect. Therefore your conclusions about how I came to my conclusion is incorrect.

Try again.

[skeptigirl]

This discussion brings up an issue that needs to be addressed. There is a difference in using the wealth of past research when assessing new evidence and in simply cherry picking data that coincides with past conclusions or beliefs.

One doesn't need to throw out all of one's expertise and treat each and every new piece of information as if it exists in a vacuum.

You need to be careful how you let your experiences and expertise influence your evaluation of new information, but that doesn't mean every time you do you are guilty of fitting the facts to your past beliefs.

[Biglug]

Try again.

No thanks. It's clear to me what your MO is at this point and I'm not interested in continuing a message board tit for tat that would not yield further understanding.

[skeptigirl]

So you are happy to misrepresent the evidence I drew my conclusion on. OK by me. I'm confident the intelligent readers in this forum understand the points I made.

[fuelair]

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[fuelair]

Dupe

[trvlr2]

fuelair- You're putting us on? "eliminate yourself"-!!:D

[Jeff Corey]

Please pull my finger,

[robinson]

Why in the hell would you post Spam here? Spam is bad enough, but when somehow my filters don't catch it, and I get a piece of crap in my inbox, I don't copy and paste it into a thread.

[fuelair]

Why in the hell would you post Spam here? Spam is bad enough, but when somehow my filters don't catch it, and I get a piece of crap in my inbox, I don't copy and paste it into a thread.

Ordinarily I wouldn't - but note the amazing resemblance of the topic of the spam to the topic of the OP. And to earlier comment, no, I did not make this up - sheer timing is all.:D

[trvlr2]

I think a good derail is in order. Me, I hate Spam. Others seem to enjoy it.

http://www.spam.com/