The atheist who prayed

[Seismosaurus]

The following is a perfectly true in every detail. It's nothing Earth shattering or even particularly interesting, but I thought I would relate it and this seemed an appropriate place.

I've been going through a somewhat difficult time recently. A friend betrayed me, and a loved one chose to side with him against me - and then made me accept his betrayal and forgive him (though he had not apologised and had in fact made it clear that he wasn't particularly sorry). I've been alternately angry and depressed about this for a week or so.

The other day another friend bumped into me and said she would "add me to the prayer list". I thanked her, and she said something about not having a lot of pull in that area recently. I told her that as a non-believer I didn't even try praying myself.

She challenged me to do two things :

1) Sometime when your in a quiet spot and nothing is going on just sit for a few minutes and let your heart open to him; just allow him to touch you. Just sit there quietly and just be open to it.

2) Again when its quiet and nothing going on, just sit down and tell him what is going on in your life. Details and how you feel whats bugging you and whats good about things, just like your talking to a friend and telling them you problems.

I've tried something like this before, but thought what the hell, it's been a long time, so I agreed to give it a go. I went to a quiet room in the house and sat there; no music, no TV, nothing, for about five minutes, just relaxing. Then I opened up a monologue in my head. I didn't write it down or anything but it was along the lines of :

"god, I know I'm not a believer in you really, and perhaps I have no right to ask this of you, but I am going to ask anyway. I am going through a difficult time lately, as I guess you know. I'm not asking you to fix it, I'm not asking you to turn the world on its head for me. I'm told you have a plan, and I'm not going to presume to second guess you on that. But I'm down, I'm unhappy, and I'd be really grateful if you could give me some sort of sign that things can be okay. I'm not asking for a booming voice from the sky or anything, just... some feeling inside, some hint of your strength or support. Thanks."

Nothing.

I went and entertained myself for a bit, then came back before bed and relaxed a little again before doing my second assignment. I explained in more detail what had happened, and just talked about this and that inside my head for a bit.

Nothing.

Does it prove anything? No, not really. I don't doubt that a believer can say that I wasn't really being honest or open - maybe suspecting that my thinking was "this won't work, and then I'll be even more sure that there isn't a god!"

I know I cannot prove to anybody that that is not the case. All I can do is give my own word, for whatever that might be worth, that this was an absolutely genuine attempt to open myself up to some higher force. I am open to the possibility that there is a god and maybe he just decided the answer was a resounding "no", or maybe he's just pissed at me for being an atheist all this time or whatever.

So no answers. No proof that anything is there, no proof that it isn't. Like I said, nothing that will shake the world, just a little true story about an atheist who prayed.

[KingMerv00]

A few years ago, I did the same thing. Same results.

[ChristineR]

I do this all the time. I come from a religious background, and often find myself surrounded by prayer, and often have the chance to give God a little reminder of my existence.

According to a certain subset of humanity, we don't exist. We are liars. Sort of like psychics, except we don't make any money at this. There's not much you can say to those people, except that if they really wanted to help us, they could start by believing we exist.

[l0rca]

I tried it a long time ago too. I've also offered my soul and eternal service to Satan if he would appear to me. A few moments later I felt entirely silly about it... then I did it the right way: I asked Satan if he could make a hot chick appear and make wild sex with me. I felt less silly, but was left unsatisfied.

[Azure]

If you're looking for 'proof' you're not going to find it.

Especially through prayer.

[pgwenthold]

Don't tell us, tell that to the chick who Seismo referenced:

"The other day another friend bumped into me and said she would "add me to the prayer list"."

[sphenisc]

I tried it a long time ago too. I've also offered my soul and eternal service to Satan if he would appear to me. A few moments later I felt entirely silly about it... then I did it the right way: I asked Satan if he could make a hot chick appear and make wild sex with me. I felt less silly, but was left unsatisfied.

She just prayed harder than you did... :D

[slingblade]

If you're looking for 'proof' you're not going to find it.

Especially through prayer.

Well, that's stupid.

Funny thing: my kids know exactly who I am.

I never hid myself from them after they were born and demanded that they seek me out. I never threatened them with the removal of my presence from their lives if they didn't believe in me without seeing me. I never threatened to punish them forever if they disobeyed the mom-they-never-saw-but-had-to-take-on-faith-alone.

No, my kids know exactly who I am. And they love me as I love them.

I was always there to help them, even if the best help I could give was to do nothing, and let them learn on their own. Even better, I taught them how to think, so they could learn to help themselves.

I never said to them: I gave you this brain that thinks and reasons, because I want you to completely ignore it and believe in something for which thought and reason are anathema. What would be the point in that? "Here's a fork; now eat your broth?" No. It's stupid, nonsensical.

If god is supposed to be our heavenly father, he's an absentee parent and should be locked up for gross neglect. But frankly, the more logical answer is that religion is a control-system, and some folks are more than willing to let others control them.

Shame, that.

[Seismosaurus]

If you're looking for 'proof' you're not going to find it.

Especially through prayer.

I described my motives, and looking for proof was not amongst them. This was NOT a "test" to see if god was there or not, it was an honest plea for help. And no, the fact that none was forthcoming does not prove that there is no god there.

[KingMerv00]

I described my motives, and looking for proof was not amongst them. This was NOT a "test" to see if god was there or not, it was an honest plea for help. And no, the fact that none was forthcoming does not prove that there is no god there.

Ah, well I prayed twice so I could say that I honestly asked God to show me his presence. A subtle change in emotion or a minor sign would have been enough. Nothing happened either time.

Some Christians claim that God would reveal himself if you honestly ask. Thought I'd give it a try in the name of science.

[Macoy]

When friends rip you off, all they're doing is showing that they weren't real friends at all. I think it's better to learn about "unfriends" as soon as poss. god's like that, too

[l0rca]

She just prayed harder than you did... :D

Ha!

Next time I pray though, I'm praying to The Dude. Now, he abides.

[Azure]

I described my motives, and looking for proof was not amongst them. This was NOT a "test" to see if god was there or not, it was an honest plea for help. And no, the fact that none was forthcoming does not prove that there is no god there.

I really don't know what to say.

I've encountered many atheists who have done the old prayer thing...and when God didn't instantly answer their prayer...they went on the old, 'see, told you God doesn't listen' path.

Personally I don't think prayer is something that gets an answer overnight...or in an instant.

[wolfgirl]

I really don't know what to say.

I've encountered many atheists who have done the old prayer thing...and when God didn't instantly answer their prayer...they went on the old, 'see, told you God doesn't listen' path.

Personally I don't think prayer is something that gets an answer overnight...or in an instant.Yeah, but plenty of xians have told us that if we would just honestly open up our hearts to their god, he would come in and fill their hearts with some sort of feeling or emotion or something that they would know that he was with them. They proclaim that this is how they found their god, that once you've experienced the joy of having him in your heart, you can never deny his existence.

Now here come these people who are saying they have honestly tried to open their hearts to him, but no love, no joy, no overwhelming feeling or sense of his presence came to them. They weren't asking for some sort of gift, like a new car or something, they were just asking for a sign that he was there, that he was listening, that he cared, that he loved them like we are told that he loves all of us. And yet they felt nothing.

That's why some people don't believe in him even if they want to.

(Personally, the only time I have prayed in decades was when my mom was on her death bed. I silently spoke to god, asking him that if I had been wrong all this time and he actually existed, to please not take out his anger at me on my mother and punish her after her death. I have no way of knowing the results.)

[wolfgirl]

I've been going through a somewhat difficult time recently. A friend betrayed me, and a loved one chose to side with him against me - and then made me accept his betrayal and forgive him (though he had not apologised and had in fact made it clear that he wasn't particularly sorry). I've been alternately angry and depressed about this for a week or so.I know how painful it can be to be betrayed by your friends. I went through a horrible betrayal myself many years ago. I remember listening to the song "I Am a Rock" over and over, like a mantra, believing that that was the way to keep from being hurt again. It actually did help me for a while, allowing me the time to heal. But I learned that, like most things, it got better with time. Some of the friends who I thought had betrayed me actually came back, and I learned that they had been confused and misinformed at the time. Others, well, they weren't really my friends anyway. Those who really mattered are still around. I hope that you will be able to move past your pain and anger. Just give yourself time.

In the meantime, sing with me...

A winter's day
In a deep and dark December;
I am alone,
Gazing from my window to the streets below
On a freshly fallen silent shroud of snow.
I am a rock,
I am an island.
I've built walls,
A fortress deep and mighty,
That none may penetrate.
I have no need of friendship; friendship causes pain.
It's laughter and it's loving I disdain.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

Dont talk of love,
But I've heard the word before;
It's sleeping in my memory.
I wont disturb the slumber of feelings that have died.
If I never loved I never would have cried.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

I have my books
And my poetry to protect me;
I am shielded in my armor,
Hiding in my room, safe within my womb.
I touch no one and no one touches me.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

And a rock feels no pain;
And an island never cries.

[The Great Hairy One]

I've never seen the need to pray, and I've never done it myself. Seems like a waste of time, really. I agree with Azure that regardless of the result, it doesn't prove anything. And I also agree with Wolfgirl - many christians have told me that if I "open my heart" or some such rubbish, that Jesus or their version of a god-idea will contact me.

Seems like a contradiction to me. :)

Cheers,
TGHO

[Azure]

Yeah, but plenty of xians have told us that if we would just honestly open up our hearts to their god, he would come in and fill their hearts with some sort of feeling or emotion or something that they would know that he was with them. They proclaim that this is how they found their god, that once you've experienced the joy of having him in your heart, you can never deny his existence.

I think prayer is a bit different from what you just said.

Still, you have a point. Like I said before, and I think it applies here too...its a due process. From what the Bible says, prayer doesn't get answered overnight.


Now here come these people who are saying they have honestly tried to open their hearts to him, but no love, no joy, no overwhelming feeling or sense of his presence came to them. They weren't asking for some sort of gift, like a new car or something, they were just asking for a sign that he was there, that he was listening, that he cared, that he loved them like we are told that he loves all of us. And yet they felt nothing.


And yet, I know people who profess that they felt God.

How much truth you can put into that, I don't know.


That's why some people don't believe in him even if they want to.


Fair enough. I certainly understand where you're coming from.


(Personally, the only time I have prayed in decades was when my mom was on her death bed. I silently spoke to god, asking him that if I had been wrong all this time and he actually existed, to please not take out his anger at me on my mother and punish her after her death. I have no way of knowing the results.)

Which is understandable.

[Macoy]

As soon as our ancestors had a couple of carcasses in the frost-hole,and their first chance to take a breath from running away from sabre-tooths, up pops Fred Flintstone in a shark suit offering to take it away for a while and then come back with a group of furry ladies and enough penguin oil to lubricate the glaciers.

They haven't looked back.

[Azure]

As soon as our ancestors had a couple of carcasses in the frost-hole,and their first chance to take a breath from running away from sabre-tooths, up pops Fred Flintstone in a shark suit offering to take it away for a while and then come back with a group of furry ladies and enough penguin oil to lubricate the glaciers.

They haven't looked back.

Huh?

[l0rca]

Seriously, it went right over me too.

Add some line breaks and you'll have Pound rolling in his grave.

[ChristineR]

Azure, might I ask what prayer is for? If its purpose is to change the pray-er, then it really doesn't matter whether or not it happens right away. Seismosaurus will sooner or later be changed by his prayer and believe in God. But I doubt if anyone believes that will happen. Perhaps God does not want Seismosaurus to believe?

If the purpose is to change the external world, then this would imply that prayer has measurable, testable results. If this were true, then I suspect that everybody would be a devout Christian by now. In any case, the evidence indicates that there is no measurable difference in outcomes when people pray.

Or perhaps the purpose of prayer is only to change the mental state of praying believers? This makes it sound rather like a long run through the woods in the damp early morning of a hot summer's day. Nice stuff, but not exactly what one thinks of when one imagines the power of God.

[Thyreus]

Well even if there was a God he wouldn't like you anymore, because appearantly he makes a big deal out of people denying him.

[Beth]

Azure, might I ask what prayer is for? If its purpose is to change the pray-er, then it really doesn't matter whether or not it happens right away. Seismosaurus will sooner or later be changed by his prayer and believe in God. But I doubt if anyone believes that will happen. Perhaps God does not want Seismosaurus to believe?

If the purpose is to change the external world, then this would imply that prayer has measurable, testable results. If this were true, then I suspect that everybody would be a devout Christian by now. In any case, the evidence indicates that there is no measurable difference in outcomes when people pray.

Or perhaps the purpose of prayer is only to change the mental state of praying believers? This makes it sound rather like a long run through the woods in the damp early morning of a hot summer's day. Nice stuff, but not exactly what one thinks of when one imagines the power of God.

Perhaps not. But many do. I went to church last Sunday. I do sometimes. I might even join this church. It's one of those liberal, you don't have to believe in any kind of miracles or supernatural aspects of the bible just the general message of "Love Everybody, Judge Nobody" and other chosen parts of the bible consistent with a liberal yet rational scientific view of the world.

Anyway, the preacher was going on about the purpose of prayer and to sum it up - the purpose of prayer is to change yourself. No, it's not a heaven shaking powerful god kind of power. It's just the power to change yourself. We all have it. Prayer is about directing it.

I've been going through a somewhat difficult time recently. A friend betrayed me, and a loved one chose to side with him against me - and then made me accept his betrayal and forgive him (though he had not apologised and had in fact made it clear that he wasn't particularly sorry). I've been alternately angry and depressed about this for a week or so.
Seismosaurus, I'm sorry to hear about your recent troubles. Life takes us all to some very strange places. Some of them are heartrending. I know that things will improve for you soon if they haven't already. Remember that growth is often painful.

Regarding the power of prayer, I'd just like to say that I believe every word of your story. May the force be with you.

[Azure]

Azure, might I ask what prayer is for?

I like what Beth says.

Prayer is communication between you and God.

If you believe in such stuff.

To put it in simple terms that is.

[Apathia]

I confess that when I pray as an exercise of self-expression, I often feel a presence.

So what do I make of that?

I've examined that feeling and understand that I'm projecting it. Whatever I address as a person, feels to me to be a person.

There's a technique used by Evangelical Christians as a conversion tool.
The individual is urged to speak to Jesus and then asked if (s)he felt there was someone there listening to what (s)he said. I lot of people naturally report a sense of Jesus being there, especially if the only time they talk alould is when they are speaking to someone.

If you are habitually talking aloud to yourself, you might not have this experience.

[Kopji]

Humm, I should start a thread but then I'd feel guilty about abandoning it.

I ran across some old 'church friends' on the internet. I had not heard from them in about 20 years and I waxed nostalgic.

They'd 'left the church' too, except they joined some fundy church. So we shared a couple nice 'hello-how-are-you' e-mails. I told them I left, was very happy without religion but was glad they found a new spiritual home etc.

So I get back from a couple weeks away from e-mail, and I have several new messages from them. All crappy religious spam. -sigh-

[Kopji]

It is not so much the people talking to god that bothers me, it is what they hear in response.

[qayak]

Personally I don't think prayer is something that gets an answer overnight...or in an instant.

So, it's kind of a wait and let the situation evolve thing. That's what us atheists have been telling you!

[LostAngeles]

When I was in the ER in February, I lay there, scared, alone, high on morphine, waiting for the results of my CT scan and hoping dearly for a spinal tap. And clothes. And food. And for my boyfriend to be there. The thought that there might be bleeding in my brain was terrifying. Even worse, midterms were approaching. It was the last thing I needed.

I stared at the fluorescent light above me and murmured, "I suppose it wouldn't hurt to pray." But I couldn't figure out who to pray to and even when I figured I'd do a general prayer, I just found that it didn't make a whit of sense.

So I made wishes instead. I wished for a spinal tap. I wished for my boyfriend. I wished for food. I wished for clothes. In that order of priority. And it amused me that here I was, a friendly agnostic, completely open to the possibility of a divine thing-um, and I can't ask it for help. I can't even pretend it's there to ask it for help. I had to go for the isomorphic wish.

Heh.

In the end, I did get all of those things in that order. The spinal tap was clear, my boyfriend got to be with me, he brought me some food, brought me some clothes, failed to bring me socks or shoes for when they discharged me. :D I forgot to wish for those.

Still, when his mom says she'll pray for me or my grandfather, I don't mind. Someone thinking enough of me to ask favors of a greater being is nice. She's thinking well of us. She wants us to get better.

As a side note, my roommates are pretty Christian and I popped in one time to grab something quickly and one said to the other, "I'll pray for you," and got right to it. I like her. :D

[.13.]

I asked Satan if he could make a hot chick appear and make wild sex with me. I felt less silly, but was left unsatisfied.

I bet you would have felt even sillier if that request had come true...

[l0rca]

I bet you would have felt even sillier if that request had come true...

Why yes. But, after sex.

[.13.]

Why yes. But, after sex.

I would have felt silly beforehand as satan lays there expectantly in a provocative outfit. But hey, whatever floats your boat...

[Seismosaurus]

Thanks to those who have expressed sympathy. What happened wasn't even that big a thing, really - just a minor little thing, but it's something that I felt strongly about, and their "you're being petty, get the hell over it" attitude was what really grated, especially from the Lady... it just brought home to me that she doesn't care about me nearly as much as she claims to. Such is life.

Anyway, regarding prayer. I think it is always a bit unproductive to say "well prayer is supposed to work this way..." because if you do that you are endorsing one particular view of religion, and there's going to be some other sect that believes something different. Maybe my experience disproves the beliefs of group X, but group Y will just see it as irrelevant, or exactly what they expected.

As for Satan... it would be nice to think that you could sell your soul and actually get the woman of your dreams (hotness not a factor; gimme somebody who'll just love me always), but I guess he doesn't take such calls either or the world would be a very different place.

[Azure]

So, it's kind of a wait and let the situation evolve thing. That's what us atheists have been telling you!

Doooooh!

[Solus]

I've prayed to fake gods I've created in my mind before. It feels good to let out that horrible emotion to something that cares even if it is pretend. It's been a long while since I've done that though.

[Darth Rotor]

I've prayed to fake gods I've created in my mind before. It feels good to let out that horrible emotion to something that cares even if it is pretend. It's been a long while since I've done that though.

Try praying to Joe Pesci. George Carlin claims it works well enough. ;)

DR

[The Atheist]

As for Satan... it would be nice to think that you could sell your soul and actually get the woman of your dreams (hotness not a factor; gimme somebody who'll just love me always), but I guess he doesn't take such calls either or the world would be a very different place.

I can do that.

Fill these in and I'll be back for your soul next week:

Hair colour
Height
Weight
Ethnicity
Age

I'll take care of the rest.

Soul, mmmmmmmmmm.

[The Atheist]

So no answers. No proof that anything is there, no proof that it isn't. Like I said, nothing that will shake the world, just a little true story about an atheist who prayed.

Excellent story, thanks.

I think you actually do prove something here.

"Seek and you will find", is a central tenet of christianity and there cannot be a person alive who doesn't know someone who "found" god. They sought and they found, so why are you different?

Simple.

In those people who "found god", it's quite clear to me that they lacked the self-assurance to deal with problems and needed to "feel" an outside agent at work to give the strength. They therefore con themselves into being "high on Jesus", while you are clearly not the type of namby-pamby wuss who has to feel the comforting hand of a sky-daddy on your shoulder.* You obviously have the inner strength to handle your life and your mind has let you hear the silence. Others aren't that lucky.

Well played.

*NB. I am specifically referring to "born-again" types here - those who have a startling revelation, much like Dustin is presently having, rather than those who doctrinally accept that their god exists. Many of that sort are not namby-pamby types at all.

[Jon.]

Try praying to Joe Pesci. George Carlin claims it works well enough. ;)

DR

Actually, he claims that it works just as well as praying to God.

[thaiboxerken]

I find the idea of praying as silly as casting spells or any other religious ritual. May as well twitch your nose or blink with your arms crossed.

[St_Hereticus]

I like Peter O'toole's observation:When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself.

[Seismosaurus]

Interestingly enough, I posted this same experience over on an IMDB forum I frequent, and a guy has PMed me asking if I would try a buddhist chant instead. He says if I do it a few minutes a day then after three or four days I am guaranteed results, whether I believe or not.

Interesting proposition. I may give it a go.