Automotive woo

[nw843x]

This seems like woo to me. If this worked as claimed, wouldn't you think that the major manufacturers would be all over this so they could reduce their CAFE ratings for just dollars a vehicle ??

http://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/

Quote :

http://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/images/res/dot-cl.gifhttp://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/images/bullets/tri.gifImprove fuel economy http://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/images/res/dot-cl.gifhttp://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/images/bullets/tri.gifImprove horespower and torquehttp://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/images/res/dot-cl.gifhttp://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/images/bullets/tri.gifReduce emissions http://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/images/res/dot-cl.gifhttp://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/images/bullets/tri.gifLess carbon deposits in enginehttp://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/images/res/dot-cl.gifhttp://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/images/bullets/tri.gifSaves moneyhttp://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/images/res/dot-cl.gifhttp://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/images/bullets/tri.gifPermanently stabilizes fuelhttp://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/images/res/dot-cl.gifhttp://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/images/bullets/tri.gifExtend engine lifehttp://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/images/res/dot-cl.gifhttp://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/images/bullets/tri.gifLess engine and fuel system maintenancehttp://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/images/res/dot-cl.gifhttp://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/images/bullets/tri.gifAllows the use of a lower octane fuel w/o sacrificing performance

Has anyone bought one of these devices?
I figure it saves fuel only by reducing the weight of your wallet.

[coalesce]

Rule of thumb: if it sounds too good to be true, it is. You can do better by driving smarter--no jack-rabbit starts, no excessive speeding, regular maintenance--than any snake oil device.

One thing I really like to do is once a year, I take my car to Jiffy Lube (a nationwide chain of oil change service stations here in the US) and have them clean out the engine and injectors. For the last three cars I've had, I've noticed much better performance after doing it every time.

Michael

[MortFurd]

The Fitch homepage has some positive tests on the gadget.

However, they also push the thing by saying it is EPA certified under 40cfr85.2114. If you look that up (PDF files here (http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/08aug20051500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/julqtr/pdf/40cfr85.2114.pdf)) you will find that it basically says that the device has been tested not to make your mileage worse, screw up your emissions, or cause your engine to wear out faster. It doesn't say it'll do you any good.

The only people on the web (that I could find) who make a big deal out of that regulation is Fitch.

Not real promising.

[Fronzel]

The EPA isn't going to have an opinion. Consumer Reports says to not waste your money or time. That none of the device work and the best way to save fuel is to follow the manufacturers maintenance schedule and not drive like Mr. Magoo.

[RatBoy]

Per their website:

"Refineries cannot remove many poorly performing molecules to make a more ideal fuel. In addition, once fuel leaves the refinery or is stored it is subject to attack by oxygen, ozone, and microorganisms (bacteria, yeast, and mold) that grow in the fuel. All these processes degrade the fuel to make a poorer product that prevents engines from performing at optimum levels. The Fitch Fuel Catalyst reformulates fuel prior to combustion on board the vehicle, preventing oxygen and most diseases from attacking the fuel and reversing any degradation that may have occurred prior to the fuel being introduced to the vehicle. The Fitch Fuel Catalyst assists the combustion process by insuring that fuel is highly uniform, potent, consistent, and stable."

Refineries cannot remove many poorly performing molecules, but this $175 part can? It "reformulates" fuel? How? "Reverses any degradation"?

A vendor with a similar product approached a vehicle fleet group I belong to recently - you can bet if an automaker had a chance to add a simple device like this to their vehicles to help meet CAFE standards (and lower emissions, drop the octane rating and improve performance, to boot!) so simply and cheaply (I note that the typical FFC for auto applications is around $175 - I'm sure that a manufacturer could develop/acquire it much more cheaply on a per unit basis), they would.

And any EPA/CARB testing on these devices, if done at all, is usually very inconclusive about any potential benefits.

These folks always come out of the woodwork when everyone gets scared about gas prices.

[MortFurd]

The quote Ratboy posted is telling. If the refineries can't do it, then how can these metal balls or canisters?

If the Fitch device worked, the petroleum companies would be using them to reduce the amount of work they have to to refine oil into fuel. Since the Fitch devices never wear out or go bad (so they claim,) it wouldn't matter much what they cost for the oil company to install them. The simplified refining (or just improving poor grades of fuel) would increase their profit margin enough that a one time expenditure would be paid for quickly enough.

[Lensman]

I just had to reply to this post on another Bulletin Board.

Mythbusters UK (http://community.discoverychannel.co.uk/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/95010646/m/528109823)

Hey guys, It's actually not a myth, at least on the screen It looks pretty natural. If you saw the documentary movie Free Energy - The Race to Zero Point . It's easy to find in the Internet. There's several devices, but I want you to pay attention to the internal combustion engine, which works on a CRUDE and WATER and produces NO carbon dioxide or monooxide at the exaust. The author of the engine tells that in the device at the exhaust pipe the carbon converts to a different element (!). If you'd be able to test this at your workshop, I'd be just great. And kind of revolutionary too!

My reply: (my bold)

This would require elemental transmutation - alchemists (if there are any still around) have been searching for the secret of this process for centuries!!

So far transmutation has only been achieved in nuclear reactors & suns - it has never, ever been achieved in a small, portable device.

If anyone ever develops a cheap method of transmuting one element into another, they could write their own cheque, they wouldn't be hawking it for a few dollars on the internet.

[ponderingturtle]

I just had to reply to this post on another Bulletin Board.

Mythbusters UK (http://community.discoverychannel.co.uk/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/95010646/m/528109823)



My reply: (my bold)

Not quite true, transmutation has been achieved in small portable devices called atomic bombs for over 60 years now.

See the Davey Crockett (http://www.battle-fleet.com/pw/his/Nuclear%20artillery%20Nuclear%20Bazooka.htm) it is a small nuclear bazooka.

[RenaissanceBiker]

Oil refineries do use catalysts to make various products from crude oil. First, you need to understand how a refinery works. They take the crude oil and super heat it in an oxygen poor environment to prevent combustion. They then allow the vaporized oil to flow into a distillation column that is cooler at the top. Various fractions of the vapor condense onto pans at different temperatures. Shorter hydrocarbon chains condense in the cooler upper part. Medium length hydrocarbon chains condense near the middle. Heavier, longer hydrocarbon chains condense in the lower part. Butane and various petroleum gases are collected at the very top. Gasoline is collected below that, then kerosene, then diesel, then lubricating oils, then fuel oils. A sludge is collected at the bottom that is used to make asphalt, tar and various waxes.

Now a barrel of oil has a certain mixture of long and short hydrocarbons. Each size group of molecules is called a fraction. By far, the biggest demand is for gasoline. If we relied on the fraction of gasoline we get from distillation, we would have billions of gallons of fuel oil sitting around unused in tanks because there is less demand for that. So the refineries use catalysts to "crack" the longer hydrocarbons into shorter ones. Thus producing the desired amount of gasoline, jet fuel, etc. from a barrel of crude oil.

The problem is that these cracking catalysts and the fuel oil must be heated to hundreds of degrees to work. They work fine, but they must occassionally be cleaned. That involves heating them to several hundred degree to burn off accumulated residue. If there was a low temperature cracking catalyst that did not require regular cleaning, the oil refineries would pay dearly for it. It would save them billions of dollars in production costs. Instead, these clowns are selling it over the internet to consumers? It is a scam.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/oil-refining.htm

[mhaze]

Rule of thumb: if it sounds too good to be true, it is. You can do better by driving smarter--no jack-rabbit starts, no excessive speeding, regular maintenance--than any snake oil device.

One thing I really like to do is once a year, I take my car to Jiffy Lube (a nationwide chain of oil change service stations here in the US) and have them clean out the engine and injectors. For the last three cars I've had, I've noticed much better performance after doing it every time.

Michael

I disagree. I think anyone who has tore down engines and examined them would laugh at JiffyLube's claims. This is woo.

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

I disagree. I think anyone who has tore down engines and examined them would laugh at JiffyLube's claims. This is woo.


This would depend on what Jiffy Lube is claiming. We have a fuel injection system cleaner at work. On high mileage engines with runability problems it does make a difference. Fuel injectors develop sealing problems with use, as deposits build up near the pintle valve and seat. Fuel can leak by an injector that is supposed to be closed, leading to starting problems, or injectors can deliver an inadequate amount of fuel as the orifice shrinks. Obviously, these conditions cause driveablity problems that can be definitively solved.


As to the original post, they don't seem to go into much detail as to what the product supposedly does to the fuel. The website relies on testimonials. Simply putting the device on the fuel line and then saying, "I got two more miles per gallon," is not a valid test, of course. Sounds like nonsense to me.

[Dorian Gray]

Not quite true, transmutation has been achieved in small portable devices called atomic bombs for over 60 years now.

See the Davey Crockett (http://www.battle-fleet.com/pw/his/Nuclear%20artillery%20Nuclear%20Bazooka.htm) it is a small nuclear bazooka.NOt quite relevant, Pedanticturtle. I'd like you to meet someone - the point.

There's no way something that will attach to a car will make it do what these manufacturers claim it will for more than a couple of seconds.

And if you're going to be pedantic, be pedantic. Atomic bombs haven't been "small" for over 60 years. They also haven't been called "atomic" bombs for quite some time.

[Lensman]

Not quite true, transmutation has been achieved in small portable devices called atomic bombs for over 60 years now.

See the Davey Crockett (http://www.battle-fleet.com/pw/his/Nuclear%20artillery%20Nuclear%20Bazooka.htm) it is a small nuclear bazooka.

The early atomic bombs were hardly small enough to attach to a car & they would have to explode to cause any large-scale transmutation - I doubt very much if that would improve the exhaust emissions.

Would the car still be drivable after using a tactical nuke on it?

Not very likely!

[LTC8K6]

Injectors that are that dirty would be obvious, though. There is no reason to clean your injectors without evidence that the cleaning is necessary.

Nor is there any reason to attempt to de-carbon cylinder heads with any of various methods unless there are symptoms indicating the need to do so.

Reputable fuel manufacturers have plenty of detergents in their fuel, and there is normally no need for any other additives to clean anything any better.

I would not pay to have my engine "cleaned out" without a solid explanation of what that means and a solid reason for doing it.

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

Injectors that are that dirty would be obvious, though. There is no reason to clean your injectors without evidence that the cleaning is necessary.

Nor is there any reason to attempt to de-carbon cylinder heads with any of various methods unless there are symptoms indicating the need to do so.

Reputable fuel manufacturers have plenty of detergents in their fuel, and there is normally no need for any other additives to clean anything any better.

I would not pay to have my engine "cleaned out" without a solid explanation of what that means and a solid reason for doing it.


True enough. It's not something we sell as preventive maintenance. It's time consuming and uses expensive chemicals. When runability problems are elusive, it's an option we'll use.

[The Atheist]

This seems like woo to me. If this worked as claimed, wouldn't you think that the major manufacturers would be all over this so they could reduce their CAFE ratings for just dollars a vehicle ??

http://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/

.....

Has anyone bought one of these devices?
I figure it saves fuel only by reducing the weight of your wallet.

Haha!

THe old fuel-catalyst scam, a perennial favourite.

As long as there are taxi drivers, you'll find these things. We get waves of them down here every few years as some clown or other reinvents some means of scalping the hopeful.

There was even a top racing driver in Oz a few years back who promoted on these things. People believe anything, why the hell aren't we all exploiting that?

[MortFurd]

Haha!

THe old fuel-catalyst scam, a perennial favourite.

As long as there are taxi drivers, you'll find these things. We get waves of them down here every few years as some clown or other reinvents some means of scalping the hopeful.

There was even a top racing driver in Oz a few years back who promoted on these things. People believe anything, why the hell aren't we all exploiting that?
There are these pesky things called "ethics."

I live just down the road from one for the biggest gem stone markets in Germany. If I didn't have ethics, I could drive over and buy semi-precious, polished stones in big bags at low prices, fart on them, and sell them on e-bay as blessed stink stones guaranteed to drive off evil spirits.
$20 per stone sold at auction-(purchase of cheap rocks+cheap beans+postage+e-bay costs)=profits (literally) out the wazoo.

Ethics prevent me from taking money from people dumb enough to give it to me for something I know is useless.

[RenaissanceBiker]

Uh, MortFund, since we're all JREFers and everything, can I get a discount on those blessed stink stones?

[MortFurd]

Uh, MortFund, since we're all JREFers and everything, can I get a discount on those blessed stink stones?

If you want to import some polished rocks, I could maybe be of service. If you make and sell stink stones of them, that's between you and your conscience.

Shall I check on prices?