Fifty Years of Math 1957 - 2007

[Lensman]

Last week I purchased a burger at Burger King for $1.58. The counter girl took my $2 and I was digging for my change when I pulled 8 cents from my pocket and gave it to her. She stood there, holding the nickel and 3 pennies, while looking at the screen on her register. I sensed her discomfort and tried to tell her to just give me two quarters, but she hailed the manager for help. While he tried to explain the transaction to her, she stood there and cried. Why do I tell you this?

Because of the evolution in teaching math since the 1950s:

1. Teaching Math In 1950s A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is 4/5 of the price. What is his profit ?

2. Teaching Math In 1960s A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100 His cost of production is 4/5 of the price, or $80. What is his profit?

3. Teaching Math In 1970s A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80. Did he make a profit?

4. Teaching Math In 1980s A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80 and his profit is $20. Your assignment: Underline the number 20.

5. Teaching Math In 1990s A logger cuts down a beautiful forest because he is selfish and inconsiderate and cares nothing for the habitat of animals or the preservation of our woodlands. He does this so he can make a profit of $20. What do you think of this way of making a living? Topic for class participation after answering the question: How did the birds and squirrels feel as the logger cut down their homes? (There are no wrong answers, and if you feel like crying, it's ok. )

6. Teaching Math In 2007 Un hachero vende una carretada de maderapara $100. El costo de la producciones es $80. Cuanto dinero ha hecho?

This may appear to be a joke, but things are certainly heading that way. :rolleyes:

[Phil]

The bigger question is, where is this logger? A truckload of lumber for $100 is a steal.

[fuelair]

Last week I purchased a burger at Burger King for $1.58. The counter girl took my $2 and I was digging for my change when I pulled 8 cents from my pocket and gave it to her. She stood there, holding the nickel and 3 pennies, while looking at the screen on her register. I sensed her discomfort and tried to tell her to just give me two quarters, but she hailed the manager for help. While he tried to explain the transaction to her, she stood there and cried. Why do I tell you this?

Because of the evolution in teaching math since the 1950s:

1
This may appear to be a joke, but things are certainly heading that way. :rolleyes:
Why yes, yes they are - for many students, schools, school systems. Students are tossed (placed at their or parents request or pushed by guidance, etc.) into honors and AP courses who are reading and performing math at elementary school levels (no one seems to care how that pulls the classes down for the students who can and will work at those levels). Here, four years ago we were "joking" that regular courses were really ese, honors were almost regular and AP almost honors. It has gone downhill from there.

[Gregory]

Yeh yeh, gramps. Things sure were better in your days. Now prove it. Because having learned math durring the 90's, I contend that you are full of *****.

[Lensman]

How good is YOUR mental arithmetic?

Do you play darts?

In a normal pub game of darts, the scoring is done in the scorers head with the result chalked onto the blackboard after he/she has worked it out mentally.

Can you mentally add up treble 16, treble 19 and double 17 then subtract that from 342 and write down the answer in the time it takes the thrower to walk from the oche (pronounced ockey) to the dartboard & retrieve his darts?

That's something that's done by us gramps' on a regular basis.

ETA: That's not our only mental exercise, when I go shopping, very often I'll idly tot up my purchases in my head so that I'll have a good idea of if I've got enough cash on me or if I'll have to dig out my debit card. I've also had math up to Calculus, Trig & Fourier Transforms etc., I haven't been to university, just some college for Electrical Engineering in the '70s followed by more college in the '80s for Electronics & Communications, I've also picked up a bit (not as much as I'd like, but then I'm just an ol' fogey) about computers too.

[strathmeyer]

Just so you know that not all fast food workers are complete idiots, I worked at a Wendy's in the South with a number of teenagers who could total (with tax) any order in their head (they would hear drive through orders and say the total before walking over to the register.) On the other hand, only about a third the staff could be trusted to work the morning shift correctly (including a third of the managers.)

[Gregory]

How good is YOUR mental arithmetic?

Do you play darts?

In a normal pub game of darts, the scoring is done in the scorers head with the result chalked onto the blackboard after he/she has worked it out mentally.

Can you mentally add up treble 16, treble 19 and double 17 then subtract that from 342 and write down the answer in the time it takes the thrower to walk from the oche (pronounced ockey) to the dartboard & retrieve his darts?

That's something that's done by us gramps' on a regular basis.

ETA: That's not our only mental exercise, when I go shopping, very often I'll idly tot up my purchases in my head so that I'll have a good idea of if I've got enough cash on me or if I'll have to dig out my debit card. I've also had math up to Calculus, Trig & Fourier Transforms etc., I haven't been to university, just some college for Electrical Engineering in the '70s followed by more college in the '80s for Electronics & Communications, I've also picked up a bit (not as much as I'd like, but then I'm just an ol' fogey) about computers too.

I do not play darts. I'm sure you're better than me at mental arithmatic, but if we're comparing our mathematics background, I'm going for my masters degree in the subject, with my most recent classes being advanced calculus, topology, and set theory.

You still have not provided any supporting evidence that the younger generation is worse at math than yours. I might agree that with the advent of calculators, we're not as good at mental arithmatic, but that's not the same thing. If I was a little pissy, I don't appologize; you can't make gross generalizations about the mathematical abilities of my entire generation (and that's what you did, even if you blamed the educational system for it) and not expect to get called out.

[sophia8]

Last week I purchased a burger at Burger King for $1.58. The counter girl took my $2 and I was digging for my change when I pulled 8 cents from my pocket and gave it to her. She stood there, holding the nickel and 3 pennies, while looking at the screen on her register. I sensed her discomfort and tried to tell her to just give me two quarters, but she hailed the manager for help. While he tried to explain the transaction to her, she stood there and cried. Why do I tell you this?Why am I getting a strong sense of deja vu when I read this story? And why is somebody who is living in Wales trying to pay for his burgers in dollars? No wonder the poor girl was weeping.

[Kahalachan]

Last week I purchased a burger at Burger King for $1.58. The counter girl took my $2 and I was digging for my change when I pulled 8 cents from my pocket and gave it to her. She stood there, holding the nickel and 3 pennies, while looking at the screen on her register. I sensed her discomfort and tried to tell her to just give me two quarters, but she hailed the manager for help. While he tried to explain the transaction to her, she stood there and cried. Why do I tell you this?

I always hate when this happens. Not around here though cause this is a University town.

Sometimes technology is too good and allows flat out morons to work.

[SomeGuy]

How good is YOUR mental arithmetic?

Do you play darts?

In a normal pub game of darts, the scoring is done in the scorers head with the result chalked onto the blackboard after he/she has worked it out mentally.

Can you mentally add up treble 16, treble 19 and double 17 then subtract that from 342 and write down the answer in the time it takes the thrower to walk from the oche (pronounced ockey) to the dartboard & retrieve his darts?

That's something that's done by us gramps' on a regular basis.



I'm only 30, I can do the darts thing fairly well, fast enough if I drag my feet a little.

But this is a very specific task you've trained, I mean darts players know all the treble values by heart, that's not mental arithmetic, that memory. Even the part that is mental arithmetic is just a specific task and not general ability in mental aritmetic.

I play bridge and other card games a lot, so as long as they are played out in 4s and makes sense I can remember the order of 52 cards played, however if you just flip through a deck of cards, there's no way I can remember the order.

I play poker so I can do fairly complex odds calculations by using shortcuts, this doesn't mean I'm generally good in statistics, like the darts example, it's more like a trick than general skill in arithmetics.

I do also like to do the adding up the grocery costs in my head while shopping. The look on the girls faces if you tell them beforehand how much it will cost is priceless. Some of them look at you like you're from another planet.

[insomneac]

Because of the evolution in teaching math since the 1950s:

1. Teaching Math In 1950s A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is 4/5 of the price. What is his profit ?

2. Teaching Math In 1960s A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100 His cost of production is 4/5 of the price, or $80. What is his profit?

3. Teaching Math In 1970s A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80. Did he make a profit?

4. Teaching Math In 1980s A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80 and his profit is $20. Your assignment: Underline the number 20.

5. Teaching Math In 1990s A logger cuts down a beautiful forest because he is selfish and inconsiderate and cares nothing for the habitat of animals or the preservation of our woodlands. He does this so he can make a profit of $20. What do you think of this way of making a living? Topic for class participation after answering the question: How did the birds and squirrels feel as the logger cut down their homes? (There are no wrong answers, and if you feel like crying, it's ok. )

6. Teaching Math In 2007 Un hachero vende una carretada de maderapara $100. El costo de la producciones es $80. Cuanto dinero ha hecho?

This may appear to be a joke, but things are certainly heading that way. :rolleyes:

It seems that Spanish has improved the teaching of math to 1960 standards. That's not surprising: South Park has showed us that Mexicans are great arithmetic teachers. Siiiii.

That's something that's done by us gramps' on a regular basis.You must've missed the lesson on the proper uses of an apostrophe.

[rjh01]

There is one other issue not yet raised. In the 1950s only a small % of people went to any form of higher education. So there were many intelligent people who were applying for the sales, other semi-skilled and unskilled jobs who did not have any formal qualifications. Now, most people get as many years of education as they can. This leaves mostly the people who have educational issues (eg not very bright, cannot do school work or maybe no money) to do the same jobs.

Put another way, if a person who can do arithmetic in their head and knows how to write a decent sentence applies for a full time job at school leaving age a good question is 'what is stopping you from doing another year at school?'

[Lensman]

You must've missed the lesson on the proper uses of an apostrophe.

I could've put "grampses" but "gramps' " is just as correct.

[joesixpack]

Actually, I'm sure she was new on the job. All of the teen-aged casheres I know have no problem with making change.

At my business, folks so rarely pay by cash that it really throws me when they do, and as I don't have a register, I have to figure out their change in my head. I don't do it quickly because I don't do it often.

[sophia8]

I'm still waiting for the Welsh poster to explain why he was trying to pay for his burger in dollars.

Seriously, the OP is an oft-circulated foaftale that's been doing the rounds for years. As such, it's not worth debating.

[Gregory]

I'm still waiting for the Welsh poster to explain why he was trying to pay for his burger in dollars.

Seriously, the OP is an oft-circulated foaftale that's been doing the rounds for years. As such, it's not worth debating.

Wow, you're not kidding. The only part of the OP that he didn't steal word-for-word from someone else was the "This might appear to be a joke" line.

[tsg]

Oh, goodie. Yet another "I (supposedly) confused a cashier unnecessarily therefore these kids today don't understand math because they can't do arithmetic in their heads" thread.

I love these stories. Nine times out of ten they are exaggerated. So, not only are they trying to prove a generality with a special case, they're trying to prove a generality with a special case example that isn't true.

now waiting for the inevitable concocted examples of why mental arithmetic is so important.

[coalesce]

1. Teaching Math In 1950s A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is 4/5 of the price. What is his profit ?

2. Teaching Math In 1960s A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100 His cost of production is 4/5 of the price, or $80. What is his profit?

3. Teaching Math In 1970s A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80. Did he make a profit?

4. Teaching Math In 1980s A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80 and his profit is $20. Your assignment: Underline the number 20.

5. Teaching Math In 1990s A logger cuts down a beautiful forest because he is selfish and inconsiderate and cares nothing for the habitat of animals or the preservation of our woodlands. He does this so he can make a profit of $20. What do you think of this way of making a living? Topic for class participation after answering the question: How did the birds and squirrels feel as the logger cut down their homes? (There are no wrong answers, and if you feel like crying, it's ok. )

6. Teaching Math In 2007 Un hachero vende una carretada de maderapara $100. El costo de la producciones es $80. Cuanto dinero ha hecho?

This may appear to be a joke, but things are certainly heading that way. :rolleyes:

You left out New Math from the 1960s and 1970s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Math

Michael

[opqdan]

In the OP, you make this sound as if it is personal experience, but I know that I have seen this idiotic posting before. Come to think of it, I believe it was in a mass-fowarded email from some old ladies my wife used to work with.

fnorgby? (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fnorgby)

Anyways, without further evidence I don't see that the quality of mathematics education has declined that far in recent years. Heck, I went through high school in the late 90's early 00's and I came out with excellent knowledge in everything up to AP Calculus (and then promptly tested out of far too many semesters of university math to be good for me).

[SezMe]

I'm sure you're better than me at mental arithmatic, but if we're comparing our mathematics background, I'm going for my masters degree in the subject, with my most recent classes being advanced calculus, topology, and set theory.
You're taking advanced calc at the Master's level? You may have just made Lensman's point.

[Math Maniac]

I am convinced that this situation has occurred at any time and place throughout history and will continue to be an issue in the future.

Whatever the issue, blaming "kids these days" or "the poor educational system" is neither constructive nor terribly insightful. I remember reading a quote from some aristocrat in the 18th Century (name has escaped me) lamenting the future and downfall of humanity due to the next generation.

That said, I taught high school mathematics for three years and often struggled with students I would describe as downright stupid. I also am surprised at the number of ill-prepared or equipped people working situations requiring money counting/handling experience.

Quick arithmetic does not equal "mathematical ability." Likewise, mental math or quick computation does not equal understanding in all situations.

[aries]

I actually think it was because she didn't understand the math operation (or whatever it is called in English). She doesn't seem to understand that you would get 2.00-1.58= 42 cents back, and when you add 8 cents (paying 2.08) you will also get 8 cents more back= 50 cents = two quarters or a 50 cent piece.

Regardless whether or not this story is true or not, it certainly seems things are heading in that way. I recall one day a few years back I went into a 7-11 kind of kiosque/drugstore thing i frequent at regular basis. I paid for the goods I bought. But when I added up the coins, one 20 coin, one 10 coin, and 2 5 coins and I think maybe 4 1 coins, the elderly man behind the desk said to me. (and I'm not kidding you): 'hey, you can still do that. Not many of the young people can do that nowadays, they just pour out all their money on the table/desk and then we can add up the money'. And that's where I got scared. Being a teacher myself, I have defended the school system in any way, I can.

However, when the school system fails to learn students the most basic arithmethic calculations, meaning that they can't add up coins correctly, then I'd think it has gone too far. And a healthy dose of some old school teaching is in perfect order. The students needs to be able to do this, not just because it is a handy thing to be abel to do, but also because it hinders them for being cheated at the hands of shrewed businessman (or woman).

[SezMe]

aries, I deduce that your first language is not English so I add this post just to help you out a bit - not to criticize in the least. In this sentence

However, when the school system fails to learn students the most basic arithmethic calculations, meaning that they can't add up coins correctly, then I'd think it has gone too far.

the bolded word should be "teach".

[tsg]

I actually think it was because she didn't understand the math operation (or whatever it is called in English). She doesn't seem to understand that you would get 2.00-1.58= 42 cents back, and when you add 8 cents (paying 2.08) you will also get 8 cents more back= 50 cents = two quarters or a 50 cent piece.

Regardless whether or not this story is true or not, it certainly seems things are heading in that way. I recall one day a few years back I went into a 7-11 kind of kiosque/drugstore thing i frequent at regular basis. I paid for the goods I bought. But when I added up the coins, one 20 coin, one 10 coin, and 2 5 coins and I think maybe 4 1 coins, the elderly man behind the desk said to me. (and I'm not kidding you): 'hey, you can still do that. Not many of the young people can do that nowadays, they just pour out all their money on the table/desk and then we can add up the money'. And that's where I got scared. Being a teacher myself, I have defended the school system in any way, I can.

However, when the school system fails to learn students the most basic arithmethic calculations, meaning that they can't add up coins correctly, then I'd think it has gone too far. And a healthy dose of some old school teaching is in perfect order. The students needs to be able to do this, not just because it is a handy thing to be abel to do, but also because it hinders them for being cheated at the hands of shrewed businessman (or woman).

The problem with stories like this is that it assumes the quality of education is declining simply because one cashier got stumped by an odd transaction. Being a cashier in these days of ubiquitous technology doesn't require the mental processes it used to. The cash register does most of the work and the job is pretty routine. When someone comes along and does as the OP claims (likely on purpose to try to prove a point), it interrupts that routine. The cashier has to stop and think about a transaction that would otherwise be routine except for some smartass with a chip on his shoulder. That's all it is. It doesn't mean the cashier doesn't understand math. If the smartass was really trying to be helpful he would have given her the eight cents with the two dollars instead of waiting until after she punched it in to dig out the change. And if he was really, really trying to help, he'd realize she can make the change faster than he can dig it out of his pocket and not bother.

Were someone to do this to me, I'd give them the change the register said and the coins they just handed me.

[Oualawouzou]

I'm not sure lensman is the one with a chip on his shoulder, but what do I know, what with being a smartass trying to make a point myself on occasion.

[Math Maniac]

I wanted to mention, but did not have the time: Evolution of education since the 50s (for the majority of the country):

1950s: WASPs only! I do not care what the courts say. If you are "too dumb" to be educated, we are not equipped to handle you--try a "specialty school." Want to drop out, go ahead...we only want the best.

1960s: WASPs only, but in some areas of the country we are forced to accept those we call undesirables. The standards for their admission is very high, though. Still do not come to us with the "dumb" ones. "Some people just are not meant to finish high school."

1970s: WASPs only, but in more areas are we forced to accept those we call undesirables. Not only that, but we are not allowed to have such high standards anymore! "Dumb" kids still need not apply. "High school is not necessary for everyone."

1980s: WASPs only, please, but we are willing to bus when necessary. Schools are more open to those with special needs, but only is a few locations. Even then, do not ask for "too much." High school should be a place to further your education, and prepare you for college IF that path is meant for you.

1990s: Finally, most of the country is more open to all people, but mandatory bussing is still fairly common. Kids with "special needs" must be allowed some kind of education with standards concomitant to their ability. Everyone should finish with a high school diploma.

2000s: Not sure yet....

While I claim this not to be correct for all situations in all places, it's pretty good--at least as good as the evolution given in the opening message of this thread.

I don't mean to flame or be an a$$; I just wanted to point out some issues with the idea presented.

[Gregory]

You're taking advanced calc at the Master's level? You may have just made Lensman's point.

It's a real analysis course, jackass.

[196]

I am a high school math teacher. The math curriculum changes all the time. It changes to meet the new demands of employers, to reflect new understanding of the learning process, and to accommodate new technology.

Many of the problems my students solve are harder than the ones I solved when I was in high school in the 1970s. My students use calculators and computers to enhance their learning. One consequence is that they are not nearly as good at "mental arithmetic" as prior generations. So what? I don't know many employers who value "mental arithmetic" over problem solving and computer skills. Today's students are not "dumb"; they are being taught a different set of skills than the previous generation learned to value.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

That's something that's done by us gramps' on a regular basis.
And the value of being able to do that in your head is what, exactly?


There is one other issue not yet raised. In the 1950s only a small % of people went to any form of higher education. So there were many intelligent people who were applying for the sales, other semi-skilled and unskilled jobs who did not have any formal qualifications. Now, most people get as many years of education as they can. This leaves mostly the people who have educational issues (eg not very bright, cannot do school work or maybe no money) to do the same jobs.
Thank you for pointing out that the demographics of the educational landscape has changed radically since the 1950s.


I could've put "grampses" but "gramps' " is just as correct.
It is?

~~ Paul

[HawkeyeMD]

I could've put "grampses" but "gramps' " is just as correct.

No, it's not. (Says the literature major. Who became a medical student.)

I don't think being able to do mental math shows much about general education, but the OP ('original' or not) was mildly amusing.

All the attendings say the same kind of things about us, just so you know. And we remind them of how much more there is to study these days.

[Dylab]

It's a real analysis course, jackass.


Ha, I did complex analysis in high school. Don't feel bad though. I remember this one homework problem problem we were given where we had to prove that some infinite series was only non trivially zero for complex numbers with real part 1/2. Awww man... I had to spend like half the night up the day it was due working on it to finally solve the problem. Aren't I a dope?

[Wolfman]

A humorous story here that is not exactly a directly a response to the OP, but is tangentially related:

I'm living in China, and recently went to purchase a new computer. I went to an authorized dealer, who had all the latest stuff. I checked everything out, spent my time to be sure I had the best system -- even had them crack open the casings to be sure everything inside was the real item (a lot of counterfeit chips over here).

Then, when it was all done, they figured out the total cost. Each item had its bar code scanned with a laser, entered into a computer, then tabulated and totaled. Then, right in the middle of this ultra-modern computer shop, with all the calculations already having been done by a state-of-the-art machine, the cashier pulled out an abacus and (in no time at all) did all the calculations himself, to confirm that the computer had not made a mistake.

Before I came to China, I honestly didn't even know what an abacus was. When I came here, I was amazed by them at first, particularly when Chinese friends started demonstrating to me just how rapidly they could carry out complex calculations just by moving those little beads up and down. As recently as ten years ago, few Chinese had access to calculators, much less computers, so this was still a common means of calculation (and today, in rural areas, it is still the norm).

[billydkid]

When I was in elementary school they introduced "the new math". I wasn't familiar with the old math, so I had no basis for comparison. When my son was in elementary school I didn't undertand what they were trying to teach him at all. Their big thing was "estimating", which I couldn't begin to understand. I understand the concept of making an estimate, but I have no idea what discipline it was they were trying to convey to him. How do you estimate wrong? You can be close or you can be far off - at which point does and "estimate" become a bad estimate. If you're 10% off from the actual is that a good estimate? Is 20% off a bad one. As far as I am concerned it was complete horsecrap. Math is about numbers - which either add up or they don't. One dollar minus one quarter of a dollar doesn't sort of equal 70 or 80 ish cents.

[tsg]

When I was in elementary school they introduced "the new math". I wasn't familiar with the old math, so I had no basis for comparison. When my son was in elementary school I didn't undertand what they were trying to teach him at all. Their big thing was "estimating", which I couldn't begin to understand. I understand the concept of making an estimate, but I have no idea what discipline it was they were trying to convey to him. How do you estimate wrong? You can be close or you can be far off - at which point does and "estimate" become a bad estimate. If you're 10% off from the actual is that a good estimate? Is 20% off a bad one. As far as I am concerned it was complete horsecrap. Math is about numbers - which either add up or they don't. One dollar minus one quarter of a dollar doesn't sort of equal 70 or 80 ish cents.

I don't need to know whether my purchases add up to $7.47 or $7.82 to know the $10 I have in my pocket will cover them. "Around 7 or 8 dollars" will do just fine.

[illogical]

a lot of high schools teach vector calculus and a few offer DEs and linear algebra. in the 80s, most rural high schools never offered calc.

if you look at the bios of the Math Olympiad american team, you'll see that many of them are way beyond "calc III" as taught in american universities.

in America, the courses in advanced calculus and real analysis typically cover different topics. set theory, topology, logic, are all taught to undergrads, although most programs don't *require* them.

technically it's calculi (e.g. lambda), geometries (e.g. affine), and algebras (e.g. Heyting).

[illogical]

some cashiers will steal from customers. i've had them distract me with conversation and try to short me several dollars.

[Jorghnassen]

Ha, I did complex analysis in high school. Don't feel bad though. I remember this one homework problem problem we were given where we had to prove that some infinite series was only non trivially zero for complex numbers with real part 1/2. Awww man... I had to spend like half the night up the day it was due working on it to finally solve the problem. Aren't I a dope?

High school? Where? the Soviet Union (because then I wouldn't be surprised)?

And Gregory: don't call it advanced calculus then. That name is good for undergrad engineers... Calculus is the mindless stuff that should be quickly forgotten (except for TAship purposes) by math grads ;).

/only PhDs have the privilege of not having to remember most trivial things, like ad cal, basic arithmetic, the number of letters in the English alphabet...

[Jimbo07]

I'm having a lot of trouble believing that things like Complex Analysis and PDEs are typical high school fare, but what do I know?

:confused:

[Dylab]

It was a joke. Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_hypothesis

I was trying for a variant of the "up hill both ways to school bit..."

[Jimbo07]

Fair 'nuff, but sometimes it's hard to tell with people. For ex.:

I was doing some homework one night for my 2nd yr ODE course. My ex-girlfriend's sister waddled up, took one look at my work and sniffed, "Oh. We did that in high school."

Her: "We did that in high school."
Me: "I'm not sure that's right..."
Her: "Oh yeah. Totally."
Me: "Uhh... do you know what I'm doing here?"
Her: "Yeah. It looks just the same. If I can find my notes I'll show you."

She never did. To this day, I think she saw me writing the terms "sin" and "cos" with my pencil and assumed I was doing grade 11 trig. I could always be wrong tho...

[Daald]

My sister and her husband are high school math teachers in NY and the horror stories I hear from them really make me worry.

1- They are not allowed to fail students.
2- There are no separate classes anymore. Everyone in the same class which means the good studends are bored and the poor ones completely lost.

With regard to this year's math regents. They reported an increase in passing students. Why is this? Simple, they lowered the passing grade to 45%.

[Jeff Corey]

I thought the passing grade in all the NYS Regents exams was 65. I think they scaled the results on the math regents two years ago because it was agreed to be too tough.

[illogical]

re: scores, there is huge difference between high school and university. the only tests that are remotely like college courses are the AP type tests; they were called Achievement Tests when i took them. i found my high school taught a watered-down chemistry and physics. i know there are exceptions like Stuveysant and other "magnet" schools.

[Daald]

I thought the passing grade in all the NYS Regents exams was 65. I think they scaled the results on the math regents two years ago because it was agreed to be too tough.

I am not exactly sure, but I think they did something weird this year. Maybe they graded on a curve, I'm not very sure. What I do know however is that my brother in law basically said that you pass with a 45.

Very sad really. I don't even know why they scaled it in the first place. When I took them in mid 90s I had absolutely no problems with them.

[196]

1- They are not allowed to fail students.I sincerely hope that the "no fail" policy doesn't spread beyond the particular school where your sister and her husband teach. I have observed and taught math classes in several schools in NY State. All of the math teachers I observed were excellent. Ideally a teacher will work very hard to ensure that every student is successful, but any student who doesn't achieve the required level of proficiency will fail. In my experience in NY State, the bar of proficiency is set at a reasonable level. In NY state high school teachers require a Master's degree in education and must pass content area proficiency tests to get a teaching license. I have a NY teaching license.

In some schools, a student who is very close to a pass may be "saved" with some extra instruction designed to get him or her up to the standard. Some observers may interpret this as a "no fail" policy, but it is actually a policy of not "giving up" on a student. In my school (in Ontario), a student who is a few marks away from passing at the end of the class can be given some additional work and assessment (testing). A student who is successful with the new work is granted the credit. Students can (and do) fail even with this system in place. I try very hard to not "fail" any student, but there are only so many hours in the day, and some students just aren't ready for the material.

2- There are no separate classes anymore. Everyone in the same class which means the good studends are bored and the poor ones completely lost.Schools are moving away from grouping students by ability. As a result, in most classrooms there are students with different abilities. It is up to the teacher to use their training and skills to develop and use differentiated instruction to ensure that students are neither bored nor confused. I enjoy teaching these classes. I find it challenging and tiring, but I have a lot of fun trying to change gears to match the speed of each individual student.

[Daald]

Everything.

Ohh, they are excellent teachers for sure and they do have a lot of bright students and they do enjoy teaching but I guess they are becoming jaded.

I asked my sister again what was the passing score in the regents. She said, that due to the curve the students had to get 35 out of 80 to pass the regents (44%).

The lowest grade was a student who obtained only 3 multiple choice questions correctly (8% after the curve I believe). If this student had simply guessed he might have done better so I don't know how this student managed to get so few right.

I don't know about you but these reports really depress me. I don't think there is anything that the teacher can do.

My sister tells me stories of parents coming up to her asking why she hates their daughter/son. She is always perplexed and asks them who they are and then shows them their work record which is usually very bad. They still don't accept that. They are convinced that she has it in for their kid.

It seems to me that is has become common to blame others for your failings. No one wants to think that their child doesn't do their homework or is disruptive in class. If they are disruptive and the teacher tries to discipline them (by sending them to the principal's office), then that teacher is discriminating and holding that child back on purpose.

To clarify, they both teach at different schools and the conditions they describe seem identical. It seriously has me pondering about home educating my own children (when I have them)

[Diamond]

The pedant in me says:

Fifty-one years of math: 1957-2007

[tsg]

The pedant in me says:

Fifty-one years of math: 1957-2007

If we're going to be pedantic, it's only fifty-one years if it's from January 1, 1957 to December 31, 2007 inclusive.

[illogical]

If we're going to be pedantic, it's only fifty-one years if it's from January 1, 1957 to December 31, 2007 inclusive.

Derbyshire talks about this issue in Prime Obsession. counting vs measure.

i know with dates, "to" can exclude the last day, and "through" can include it.

[ShowerComic]

A friend of mine once had a temp job at McDonalds, at the counter taking money. She was once chastised by her boss for having the CORRECT amount of change at the end of the day.

Her reply: "I went to Harvard, I know how to do arithmetic!"


Me I grew up on the "New Math" with a little help from Tom Lehrer.
Also a private schooling..

[illogical]

some of the books from the 70s are pretty good. i saw a precalc book that had 2 sets of problems per section. the first was manipulative math, the second was proofs. it even mentioned epsilon-delta, Dedekind cuts, and Cauchy sequences. i have a linear algebra book (1964?) that starts out with simple calculations then gets really abstract halfway through. a lot of these type books sell for $3 to $10 online.

[lionking]

For what's it worth (more than a burger perhaps) I will never forget a meeting I attended with a group of babyboomers (me included) with two Phds, two Masters graduates and three common graduates. We were talking about how our small company was going to survive, and without going into boring details, nobody except me could acept that 3000 units at $1000 per unit amounted to $3million. Everyone else acme up with $3000,000. Innumeracy is not restricted to the young.

[lionking]

And illiteracy! Should have been came not acme (although this is still a word).

[lionking]

Yes, yes, yes and accept. Too many red wines!

[lionking]

Oh Jeez $300,000. I give up!

[illogical]

there just isn't much math taught these days, and most kids stop at elementary algebra and analytic geometry.

a lot of people have a gross misunderstanding of probablility and statistics, yet these are two subjects that have tons of applications in daily life. for instance, the probability of getting veneral disease or the garbage numbers that politicians use to sway voting.

[Jorghnassen]

Actually, at least around here, the breadth of math taught in high school as increased dramatically in the last 15 years. The depth of each subfield covered, on the other hand, has decreased accordingly. And, just as pointed out in the "Maths" thread elsewhere on the forum, this, coupled with the "constructivist" approach, has not yielded positive results in terms of student knowledge of math.

[thull]

Curious since we have quite a few teachers already in this thread.
I honestly believe that tougher applications are taught within schools nowadays. Many students can go through the motions with a computer or calculator and get the right answer. However, is it really a detriment that the underlying theory and understanding of the concepts seem to be brushed over or not getting through?

When i was in High School all i learned was concrete math concepts and theory. Almost all problems were generic at best. The assignments/homework i see kids with now seem to be much more focused on the application of being able to do a certain process rather then understanding how/why you arrived at that value.

True, this is all anecdotal and may be a far cry from what is really going on. However, since we have some people in the "trenches" already: I would enjoy hearing your view on whether this is actually going on and whether it actually even matters.

[drkitten]

Curious since we have quite a few teachers already in this thread.
I honestly believe that tougher applications are taught within schools nowadays. Many students can go through the motions with a computer or calculator and get the right answer. However, is it really a detriment that the underlying theory and understanding of the concepts seem to be brushed over or not getting through?

Depends on how often you expect to use "the underlying theory and understanding of the concepts."

As has been pointed out many times in this thread alone, you don't need to understand subtraction to make change if the register can do it for you. And, in fact, using your understanding of subtraction instead of letting the register do it for you will make you slower and less accurate.

At a higher level, my financial advisor has the time-value-of-money available at a touch of a button on his calculator, so he can tell me exactly how much my retiremen account will be worth in fifteen years, or how much my monthly payments on the new catnip farm will be, and how much less they would be if I financed over thirty years instead of twenty. He may not understand where the formula for continuous compound interest originates, but he doesn't need to -- and I don't need him to. I need to know if I can afford to retire and buy the catnip farm on my salary. I need to know how much my retirement fund will buy as an annuity -- and how long the annuity will last. I need to know what adding another fifty a month will do to the overall value, and whether I'd be better off putting another fifty to the mortgage instead.

The fact that he's got all those numbers at the touch of a button means that we can actually have more detailed, more intelligent conversations about exactly how to handle my money, since we don't need to waste time crunching numbers and arguing about which one of us is correct.

Of course, he would probably be a lousy research mathmatician. But that's okay, because I used to live with a research mathematician, and he couldn't balance his checkbook. (He couldn't subtract, either -- he just added negative numbers. Subtraction
was for wimps or something.)


When i was in High School all i learned was concrete math concepts and theory. Almost all problems were generic at best. The assignments/homework i see kids with now seem to be much more focused on the application of being able to do a certain process rather then understanding how/why you arrived at that value.

Well, the processes people need to do now are often much better defined. It's almost an "assembly-line-of-the-mind." Just as the assembly line made it easier for unskilled and semi-skilled workers to do userful blue collar obs, so do calculators make it easier for the semi-skilled to do useful white-color ones. In 1957, I didn't need to be a master carpenter to work in a table factory, since I only needed to run one machine. In 2007, I don't need to be a master mathematician to sell annuities. And just as the table factory didn't eliminate the need for master carpenters -- in fact, it arguably increased it, because they were still needed for management -- so the calculator won't eliminate the need for master mathematicians.

[Soapy Sam]

When I see discussions like this, I imagine an early Bronze Age campfire, around which a group of Yorkshiremen sit, carping about kids and their new-fangled bronze axes. What'll they do when they're caught short and don't know how to knap flint, eh?
Like it or not, just as many physical skills have been rendered obsolete by machines, so mental skills are starting to be mechanised.
Good or bad, I don't know, but the future is coming.