My "meaning of life" epiphany

[noblecaboose]

Something I read recently in another thread reminded me of this story:

About two years ago, several friends and I went to Santa Barbara where we all hiked down to the beach after eating magic mushrooms.
My experience was very intense. I looked out at the sky and the sun. I went into the water and stood where the ocean pulled the sand out from underneath my feet. I saw geometric patterns in all of nature and in the faces of my friends. I touched anemones on the beach and felt them tug at my finger. I felt at one with the universe and I felt that it was trying to tell me something:
"YOU ARE NOTHING. The tiniest piece of algae that floats on this water is just as significant as you are. It knows it is nothing because it knows nothing. This ocean, the land, the sun and all the stars you cannot see are all nothing. There is no meaning to any of it. There is no truth. There is no meaning to anything except to simply be.You are nothing"

And this gave me comfort.

Now, I realize that this was brought on by psilosybin, of course, but it gave me the kind of experience I had never received from religion. For about a week I went around telling people I knew the "meaning of life." But I don't seriously base my philosophy on this experience. It was a trip. That's all.
I understand that this kind of experience can also be caused by a type of seizure.

I guess my point is that it's possible to have a profound (spiritual?) experience without attributing it to God or nirvana or some supernatural force. I can understand why someone would, especially if they had never had an experience like that.

Anyway, that's just my story. Felt like sharing. :)

[Apathia]

I guess my point is that it's possible to have a profound (spiritual?) experience without attributing it to God or nirvana or some supernatural force. I can understand why someone would, especially if they had never had an experience like that.

Anyway, that's just my story. Felt like sharing. :)

In my personally biased opinion, yes.
It's even possible to have this sense of solidarity with nature and other mystical experiences without the mushrooms or the weed. At least for me.

I do think humans are wired for religious experiences. Looking at the wide variety of interpretations and intellectual content various cultures attach to these, it's clear to me that these experiences are not objectively relevatory but give subjective enhancements to the quality of our living.

[Zep]

Well, for me, one notable such experience was looking at the face of my newborn baby daughter. Corny, I know. But that little squished puzzled face just looked at me and said, "I know your voice. Are you my dad? Hmmm... What's this all about?"

Mind you, she still does that now, 20 years later. ;)

[H'ethetheth]

I have had this while strolling around at sunset in the middle of a very flat part of nowhere (lots of that around in the Netherlands), when it struck me how big the sky actually is. It's pretty big, let me assure you.

[alfaniner]

I always felt a little sorry for those who look upon a vast landscape, or the sky at night and think about how small and insignificant they are.

I've always been of the mind that, if you spread your arms wide, you can feel like you are holding the entire universe.

(Yes, I know it's actually only a "hemisphere" of the universe, but that kind of detail only takes away from the romanticism of it)

[Apathia]

And you can hold the moon between your thumb and pointer finger and say, "I crush your head!" LOL

That we are such "dust grains of dust" in the face of the Vast is only a piece of it. It's that we know we are, that we comprehend that we don't comprehend, that's a wonder.

[KingMerv00]

I always felt a little sorry for those who look upon a vast landscape, or the sky at night and think about how small and insignificant they are.

Why? Is being a small part of a vast universe automatically a bad thing? The bigger the universe, the more there is to explore and learn about.

[sackett]

I have had this while strolling around at sunset in the middle of a very flat part of nowhere (lots of that around in the Netherlands), when it struck me how big the sky actually is. It's pretty big, let me assure you.

Congratulations, H'ethetheth. It's wonderful to see the universe.

It's interesting that a lot of these sorts of moments happen outdoors.

A few years back, I was driving on a dirt road somewhere in the land between Colorado and Wyoming (the map shows a simple line, but believe me, 'taint so on the ground). I stopped to pump the bilge, and walked a short way from the road to do so. The surroundings were not polder-flat (or Kansas-flat; yeesh, what a huge flatness!), but they weren't as spectacular as the Rocky Mountains often get. It was simply a pretty place, sagebrushy, hilly, wooded in the distance, and, except for me and the road and the car, absolutely innocent of any sign of Man.

After I had manned the hose, I stopped thinking for a moment. Yes, mental activity ceased. Try making that happen sometime; Buddha himself couldn't do it. Then thought resumed, with these words clear in my mind: "This is where it actually is."

I wept, standing there with fly unzipped, wearing shabby clothes, helpless and utterly without dignity. A very fulfilling experience; it will always be with me.

[Taffer]

I guess my point is that it's possible to have a profound (spiritual?) experience without attributing it to God or nirvana or some supernatural force. I can understand why someone would, especially if they had never had an experience like that.

Anyway, that's just my story. Felt like sharing. :)

I couldn't agree more, NC. :)

[sackett]

We once had a thread on the topic of "religious experiences of atheists." It required a somewhat specialized Jungian definition of "religious," but it elicited some interesting stories. I'd admire to hear more.

[noblecaboose]

We once had a thread on the topic of "religious experiences of atheists." It required a somewhat specialized Jungian definition of "religious," but it elicited some interesting stories. I'd admire to hear more.

I agree.
It's important for us to share our profound experiences with others so that people don't think of us as dead inside.

[calebprime]

Something I read recently in another thread reminded me of this story:


And this gave me comfort.


Anyway, that's just my story. Felt like sharing. :)

I agree.
It's important for us to share our profound experiences with others so that people don't think of us as dead inside.

double-plus-agree

[latent aaaack]

Now, I realize that this was brought on by psilosybin, of course, but it gave me the kind of experience I had never received from religion. For about a week I went around telling people I knew the "meaning of life." But I don't seriously base my philosophy on this experience. It was a trip. That's all.
I understand that this kind of experience can also be caused by a type of seizure.



I do think humans are wired for religious experiences. Looking at the wide variety of interpretations and intellectual content various cultures attach to these, it's clear to me that these experiences are not objectively relevatory but give subjective enhancements to the quality of our living.

While I agree with both of these sentiments, you could attribute to subjective physical processes emotion too, but that doesn't take away from it's meaning and extance (I know these posts most likely didn't imply otherwise though). In my opinion spirituality can be described as complex advanced emotion and that's the meaning I take from Einsteins quote that "science without religion is lame and religion without science is blind," more broadly the sense of spirituality that Sagan conveyed is imbued in the universe and our investigation of it, and in another sense which is conveyed in a lot of the most timeless, popular music and without irrational beliefs associated with the music. Furthermore I think that a skeptics' sense of spirituality would be critical in giving people what they historically have taken from religion and ending that era of superstition which makes another predictable opportunity for a quote of Sagan's: "A religion that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by traditional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge."

[gorillapaws]

Ok so I've got some questions about this because I'm trying to wrap my head around it. I can understand and appreciate certain eastern philosophies where one can reject the rules of the outside world and embrace some intense inner experiences. While I don't hold these views, I can see how they can give comfort in a way, even after rejecting the attachments of a traditional life. It seems Noblecaboose's experience is, in many ways, the exact antithesis of this. In a way, it seems to be a rejection of the self and a surrender to the forces of a vast and uncaring universe. As hard as I try, I can't empathize with that kind of experience and come away with any positive feelings. This of course isn't a rejection of Noblecaboose's experience, but a request to help me appreciate where/how the feeling of comfort is derived from such a vapid paradigm. Is is simply the mental relief from not having to defend an unpopular belief structure?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Mind you, she still does that now, 20 years later. ;)

Zeplette's 20 now? Man how time has flown.

[athon]

Ok so I've got some questions about this because I'm trying to wrap my head around it. I can understand and appreciate certain eastern philosophies where one can reject the rules of the outside world and embrace some intense inner experiences. While I don't hold these views, I can see how they can give comfort in a way, even after rejecting the attachments of a traditional life. It seems Noblecaboose's experience is, in many ways, the exact antithesis of this. In a way, it seems to be a rejection of the self and a surrender to the forces of a vast and uncaring universe. As hard as I try, I can't empathize with that kind of experience and come away with any positive feelings. This of course isn't a rejection of Noblecaboose's experience, but a request to help me appreciate where/how the feeling of comfort is derived from such a vapid paradigm. Is is simply the mental relief from not having to defend an unpopular belief structure?


A close work colleague of mine was in a car accident yesterday (see my thread in the community section on it).

Since I work in a Catholic school I'm going to hear a lot of 'let us pray for her'. To attribute some significance to the event, for me, raises impossible questions and concerns. Instead I feel better by looking at her, and myself, and all life, as universally insignificant. Why did it happen? Because it just did, and its hardly any more a significant event in the course of universal time than a leaf dropping from a tree.

That doesn't mean she isn't important to me, or that I am insignificant to the feelings and thoughts of others. We all have personal significance. But sometimes to feel as if your life and all around you is nothing places things into a perspective which eliminates the necessity for a sense of fairness and justice, or of reason. Why do good people die? Why is my life sometimes so hard while others have it easy? Why is life so unfair sometimes? In a universe which has no conscience, no real sense of intention other than just existing, these questions are meaningless. And I personally take a great deal of comfort from that.

Athon

[Zep]

Zeplette's 20 now? Man how time has flown.She will be 21 early next year. And you're telling me!


Which reminds me...I always felt a little sorry for those who look upon a vast landscape, or the sky at night and think about how small and insignificant they are.

I've always been of the mind that, if you spread your arms wide, you can feel like you are holding the entire universe.When we visit my parents in the country in winter, they have the clearest skies for star viewing ever. Bad Astronomer can confirm this - southern New South Wales is very clear skies for astronomy. On a cloudless winter night, the stars literally throw shadows they are so numerous and bright (and many have clearly different colours).

Zeplette and I have found a small hill nearby to home that we like to go and stand on together and just look up... We don't say much, but the feeling is one of immense size of the universe, and we are small but still significant in it. It's really great to be able to see this, and with my daughter sharing, it's a pleasure enhanced. She has even gone to the extent of trying to photograph that sky at night.

Then we go home to family and have some good wine and a nice dinner indoors where it is warm! ;)

[gorillapaws]

A close work colleague of mine was in a car accident yesterday (see my thread in the community section on it).

Since I work in a Catholic school I'm going to hear a lot of 'let us pray for her'. To attribute some significance to the event, for me, raises impossible questions and concerns. Instead I feel better by looking at her, and myself, and all life, as universally insignificant. Why did it happen? Because it just did, and its hardly any more a significant event in the course of universal time than a leaf dropping from a tree.

That doesn't mean she isn't important to me, or that I am insignificant to the feelings and thoughts of others. We all have personal significance. But sometimes to feel as if your life and all around you is nothing places things into a perspective which eliminates the necessity for a sense of fairness and justice, or of reason. Why do good people die? Why is my life sometimes so hard while others have it easy? Why is life so unfair sometimes? In a universe which has no conscience, no real sense of intention other than just existing, these questions are meaningless. And I personally take a great deal of comfort from that.

Athon

I'm sorry to hear about your friend. I sincerely hope she will be ok. To your point. I think I can appreciate where you're coming from much more. Thank you for that.

It seems like what you're describing is a freedom from trying to jam puzzle pieces that don't want to fit well together by denying the existence of the puzzle. For instance, I'm inclined to believe in things like some type of higher power, freedom of will and a non determined existence where there is something more to a person that being a "meat computer." These beliefs come from a sort of inner intuition, the one that seems to spot optical illusions is the only way I can describe it. The problem is that there are many major philosophical problems with these kinds of beliefs as you well know. And it seems that instead of anguishing about not being able to make them fit, the comfort is in the freedom to say it's all an illusion. It's a freedom from an inner mental struggle of trying to make sense of these types of things. I think I can appreciate how that could be comforting. Is this essentially what you're talking about?

[D'rok]

I'm sorry to hear about your friend. I sincerely hope she will be ok. To your point. I think I can appreciate where you're coming from much more. Thank you for that.

It seems like what you're describing is a freedom from trying to jam puzzle pieces that don't want to fit well together by denying the existence of the puzzle. For instance, I'm inclined to believe in things like some type of higher power, freedom of will and a non determined existence where there is something more to a person that being a "meat computer." These beliefs come from a sort of inner intuition, the one that seems to spot optical illusions is the only way I can describe it. The problem is that there are many major philosophical problems with these kinds of beliefs as you well know. And it seems that instead of anguishing about not being able to make them fit, the comfort is in the freedom to say it's all an illusion. It's a freedom from an inner mental struggle of trying to make sense of these types of things. I think I can appreciate how that could be comforting. Is this essentially what you're talking about?

Speaking for myself, I think you have this partially right. There is comfort in the freedom from futility - i.e., freedom from the existential angst of forever attempting to answer unanswerable questions about Being. But this is not the same thing as saying that we never attempt to make sense of these things or that we dismiss it all as an illusion. The intellectual challenge is still appealing and intriguing. The key is simply removing the need for answers from the process and adopting a pragmatic sense of joy in the journey.

[Babylon Sister]

Another outdoor experience.

I was doing an archeological survey in north central South Dakota, in short grass prairie country in mid-May. As I walked along, always looking at the ground, I walked to the top of a rise. At the top I finally looked up and looked around me. It was one of the most beautiful things I have ever seen. I was standing in a field of grass on unbroken prairie, the temperature was perfect, the sky was cloudless and almost cobalt blue, the air smelled so clean, and the breeze was making the grass move like waves.

I stood there for probably 10 minutes, just drinking it in. I thought "This is it. This is what I want."

That was 10 years ago and I can still feel that breeze and smell the grass. It was a very powerful moment for me.

[triadboy]

I've had many 'cosmic void' experiences - but what I love to do is go up on Kitt Peak here in Tucson and look at galaxies. When you see the Sombrero Galaxy 'live' - It makes you crap a brick.

[athon]

I'm sorry to hear about your friend. I sincerely hope she will be ok. To your point. I think I can appreciate where you're coming from much more. Thank you for that.

No problem. And thanks for the kind words.

It seems like what you're describing is a freedom from trying to jam puzzle pieces that don't want to fit well together by denying the existence of the puzzle. For instance, I'm inclined to believe in things like some type of higher power, freedom of will and a non determined existence where there is something more to a person that being a "meat computer." These beliefs come from a sort of inner intuition, the one that seems to spot optical illusions is the only way I can describe it. The problem is that there are many major philosophical problems with these kinds of beliefs as you well know. And it seems that instead of anguishing about not being able to make them fit, the comfort is in the freedom to say it's all an illusion. It's a freedom from an inner mental struggle of trying to make sense of these types of things. I think I can appreciate how that could be comforting. Is this essentially what you're talking about?

Pretty much. Your 'meat computer' line is somewhat fitting, although I tend to explain life as an amazing series of complicated chemical reactions, and nothing more. It is marvellous and beautiful, and the rules which define this system are incredibly spectacular for our feeble minds to behold. But there is no need to complicate it further by assuming a higher order or intention. By no means do I suggest we have complete understanding, and should one day we work out that there has to be another layer to our universe, I'd be open to changing my views to account for it.

But right now to think that there is a system in place which places some significance on unfortunate events - a 'jigsaw puzzle' of significance, as you suggested - makes little sense logically and provides me personally with no additional comfort.

Athon

[athon]

I've had a lot of these experiences, many of which travelling the world.

Sunrise on Mt. Sinai - while most there were probably religious, I suddenly felt connected to history. Not God, but to that spiritual belief in God. I can understand spiritual conversions, and had I been of a more susceptible frame of mind, I might well have encountered some sort of conversion there. Instead, I just understood why people felt obliged to believe in some being greater than themselves.

London Bridge - Standing in the rain one night, kissing a girl. It wasn't so much any one thing, like the rain or the kiss, or the sense of place, but a momentary connection with myself as a kid living in working class suburbia, Brisbane. And then I thought 'I have everything I wanted'. I was a free spirit in the world.

Lecce, Italy - Walking the streets one night with my girlfriend at the time, I had such a sudden sense of feeling tiny. History stretched away from me in both directions, and I was surrounded by language I barely spoke.

Syria - Another language one, where I was talking at a truck stop with a group of Iraqi refugees from just across the border. They didn't speak English, and I didn't speak Arabic. Yet we were laughing and joking and sharing. Two worlds, totally different, and we all connected somehow.

I live for those moments.

Athon

[CapelDodger]

I wept, standing there with fly unzipped, wearing shabby clothes, helpless and utterly without dignity. A very fulfilling experience; it will always be with me.

For some, that would just be a very bad day in court, but I can see how it would stay with them.

"Never whistle when you're pissing." Hagbard Celine

[CapelDodger]

I've had many 'cosmic void' experiences - but what I love to do is go up on Kitt Peak here in Tucson and look at galaxies. When you see the Sombrero Galaxy 'live' - It makes you crap a brick.

So ... do you do this when you need a crap, or when you need a brick :confused: ?

[CapelDodger]

Syria - Another language one, where I was talking at a truck stop with a group of Iraqi refugees from just across the border. They didn't speak English, and I didn't speak Arabic. Yet we were laughing and joking and sharing. Two worlds, totally different, and we all connected somehow.

Red Leb does have that effect, as I recall. :)

Nightime by London Tower, snow in the air, best girl by my side, sharing a bag of roast chestnuts ... Perfect contentment.

[triadboy]

So ... do you do this when you need a crap, or when you need a brick :confused: ?

It's what we use to make our adobe houses here in the Sonoran Desert.


:)

[CapelDodger]

It's what we use to make our adobe houses here in the Sonoran Desert.


:)

Your local building regs must be a document to treasure :eek: .

[nosho]

I guess my point is that it's possible to have a profound (spiritual?) experience without attributing it to God or nirvana or some supernatural force.


I think you're right. Remember those news stories last year about the god machine (http://discovermagazine.com/2006/dec/god-experiments/)? Electromagnetic pulses appear to be able to stimulate parts of the brain to bring about such experiences.

I think it's also possible to have this kind of experience without a "god machine" and without mushrooms.

For what it's worth, your personal experience sounds like "shunyata," the Buddhist notion of a direct experience of emptiness. Which, by the way, is not considered to be a supernatural thing.

Neither is nirvana, for that matter.

[noblecaboose]

I think you're right. Remember those news stories last year about the god machine (http://discovermagazine.com/2006/dec/god-experiments/)? Electromagnetic pulses appear to be able to stimulate parts of the brain to bring about such experiences.

I think it's also possible to have this kind of experience without a "god machine" and without mushrooms.
Yeah, I did hear about that. That kind of thing fascinates me. The last thing for me to let go of, when I got into skepticism and started questioning everything last year, was the body/mind duality. That sort of flesh/spirit, body/mind/soul thing had been drilled into me since childhood. Then, even as my former beliefs fell away under scrutiny, I still somehow thought of emotion as being somehow something that wasn't physical. I finally let go of this and with it came the realization that what I had been calling "spirituality" was pretty much just emotion. It sometimes bothers me when people say things like "I'm not really religious, but I do consider myself spiritual." It sounds like such a cop-out to me. My mother (who I has assumed was very religious, but it turns out is practically an atheist) pointed out to me that what people usually mean by this is that they are emotional. A surprising insight from her that I completely agree with.

For what it's worth, your personal experience sounds like "shunyata," the Buddhist notion of a direct experience of emptiness. Which, by the way, is not considered to be a supernatural thing.

Neither is nirvana, for that matter.

Yes, hence my use of the word "or" but thanks for pointing that out. I supposed I did imply that nirvana is supernatural. I guess non-buddhists or people who have not studied buddhism make this mistake often (i.e. New Agers, hippies). I took a comparative religion class in college and was surprised at how some eastern religions seem to have a lot of dogma that doesn't depend on the acceptance of literal belief in a mythology. After being raised Christian and attending Catholic school, I thought that all religions depended on faith and a belief in the supernatural. I have a lot of respect for Buddhism, but I have a hard time following the eightfold path. Moderation's too strict for me. I'm too much of a hedonist. :D