Sincerity and ""Conversions" to Atheism

[mijopaalmc]

I posted this in another thread and though that, rather than hijack that thread, I would start thread for it:

My own experience with theism and atheism has been that my desire to be a theist has been driven by my desire to belong. Long story short, I have had several "religious experiences" that made me want to become a Christian, but because I never nurtured those impulses (as that would mean changing my daily routine), I always fell back on my default atheism/agnosticism.

The point is that I experienced euphoria when I had those "religious experiences" but as the euphoria wore off and I didn't make an effort to engage in ritualistic behavior to reinforce it, I transitioned back to atheism/agnosticism. Thus, I was wondering if, in the experience of the atheists here, the realization of atheism is a much slower process than the "road to Damascus" epiphany that some people claim to have when they read C. S. Lewis, and if the difference in the swiftness in this "about-face" (whether from atheism to theism or vice versa) is what leads people to trust someone's "conversion" from theism to atheism more that the reverse conversion.

I am truly interested in people's opinions, so I will keep my posts to a minimum.

I look forward to any and all responses.

[SezMe]

Thus, I was wondering if, in the experience of the atheists here, the realization of atheism is a much slower process than the "road to Damascus" epiphany that some people claim to have when they read C. S. Lewis, and if the difference in the swiftness in this "about-face" (whether from atheism to theism or vice versa) is what leads people to trust someone's "conversion" from theism to atheism more that the reverse conversion.

There is no one conversion experience. Dan Barker (http://www.ffrf.org/about/) describes a years-long painful journey. Conversely, I remember the story from another long-time preacher (personal anecdote here) who describes driving down a long, dark, lonely road one night and having a revelation that the whole Christianity thing was a gigantic hoax (his word). I suspect conversions in the other direction have a similar wide range of descriptions.

[Hokulele]

If you haven't seen it yet, Julia Sweeney's "Letting Go of God" is a wonderful and funny take on this.

[jesus_freak]

Well you could start by becoming a Christian for the right reasons...fyi not one of them is for a sense of belonging to help you feel all fuzzy inside

[SezMe]

What are the right reasons, jesus_freak?

[quixotecoyote]

I hear the 'inexplicable interior fuzziness' as the reason most people become Christians. Parental and societal influence is usually dismissed. I remain frustrated by claims that I've never experienced the feelings Christians have or I'd believe. My Christian friends refuse to entertain the possible I have them and don't attribute them to a god. Understandable given the worldview, but still irksome.

[jesus_freak]

What are the right reasons, jesus_freak?

Well for one...so that we may be forgiven of our sins so that we can spend eternity with the Lord in Heaven!

[quixotecoyote]

Well for one...so that we may be forgiven of our sins so that we can spend eternity with the Lord in Heaven!

Yeah, but that's not why you believe it, that's what you believe.

[mijopaalmc]

Well for one...so that we may be forgiven of our sins so that we can spend eternity with the Lord in Heaven!

So instead of getting the earthly reward of social acceptance you get the heavenly reward of....social acceptance?

To paraphrase Gertrude Stein: a reward is a reward is a reward.

How is less noble to want to be accepted by your peers the to want to be accepted by "God"?

[Paulhoff]

Well for one...so that we may be forgiven of our sins so that we can spend eternity with the Lord in Heaven!
BS, your so-called god couldn’t get it right on earth, so what makes you think it could get it right in so-called heaven, ever hear of the Fallen Angel.

Paul

:) :) :)

[Fronzel]

Bart Ehrman said that he converted to Christianity because they showed him the Jesus shaped hole in his heart and it got rid of confused and lonely feelings.

Later he realized that the confused and lonely feelings are part of being a teenager.


It makes me wonder if religious groups realize this and prey on it.

[articulett]

Well for one...so that we may be forgiven of our sins so that we can spend eternity with the Lord in Heaven!

For another, if you don't believe your all loving omniscient invisible friend will boil you in oil for all eternity....

[MelBrooksfan]

I hear the 'inexplicable interior fuzziness' as the reason most people become Christians.

Quite true. A friend of mine was forced throughout high school to attend church by his parents under the idea that "children who attend church are X percent happier than those who do not."

[Ryokan]

It makes me wonder if religious groups realize this and prey on it.

You better believe it!

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Well for one...so that we may be forgiven of our sins so that we can spend eternity with the Lord in Heaven!
What the hell are you going to do for eternity?

If you retain your current personality, I daresay you won't be able to stand it after a hundred years or so.

If your personality changes so that you enjoy being in a blissful state forever, then it is not you who has ascended to heaven.

~~ Paul

[mijopaalmc]

So does anyone want to answer: why do you trust a person's decision to abandon theism for atheism more than a person's choice to abandon atheism for theism?

[Foster Zygote]

My own transition was rather gradual and took years. I can't even pinpoint a moment when I thought "Hey! I'm an atheist!".

[Beth]

So does anyone want to answer: why do you trust a person's decision to abandon theism for atheism more than a person's choice to abandon atheism for theism?

I'm not sure what you mean trusting a person's decision. Do you mean trusting that they are sincere? In that case, I would trust the conversion to atheism more because the cost of being a self-declared atheist is fairly high in our society while there is little cost and numerous benefits to being a self-declared Christian. Other religions, such as conversion to Judaism, Islam, etc. tend to fall between those two extremes.

[Complexity]

Well for one...so that we may be forgiven of our sins so that we can spend eternity with the Lord in Heaven!


Heaven sounds rather boring to me. What precisely do you imagine you and your sky-spook will do for eternity?

[Hokulele]

I'm not sure what you mean trusting a person's decision. Do you mean trusting that they are sincere? In that case, I would trust the conversion to atheism more because the cost of being a self-declared atheist is fairly high in our society while there is little cost and numerous benefits to being a self-declared Christian. Other religions, such as conversion to Judaism, Islam, etc. tend to fall between those two extremes.


I fully agree with Beth here. An analogy would be the "conversion" confessions of gays trumpeted by certain conservative religious groups. I would be less likely to trust a homosexual admitting they are actually heterosexual than the reverse.

A side point this analogy brings up is that the whole theism/atheism dichotomy ignores the full spectrum of religious belief. It leaves out the experiences of the deists and agnostics, who probably make up more of the general population than is usually acknowledged. I would say more people are converted from theism to deism or from theism to agnosticism, as well as from atheism to agnosticism, etc. than between the two groups listed in the OP.

[quixotecoyote]

Yeah, but that's not why you believe it, that's what you believe.

I wasn't saying that they joined to be happy. I mean they joined, converted, or entrenched their belief after having an experience of peace/love/knowledge/understanding etc. The Christians I trust never say anything about direct revelation, voice from the thundercloud or things of that nature. It's always just a feeling that from their description of it, is most likely the same feeling of peace/love/knowledge/understanding etc that everyone gets at times, just attributed to a god.

That is why I said:
I remain frustrated by claims that I've never experienced the feelings Christians have or I'd believe. My Christian friends refuse to entertain the possible I have them and don't attribute them to a god. Understandable given the worldview, but still irksome

[Hourglassmemory]

I hear the 'inexplicable interior fuzziness' as the reason most people become Christians. Parental and societal influence is usually dismissed. I remain frustrated by claims that I've never experienced the feelings Christians have or I'd believe. My Christian friends refuse to entertain the possible I have them and don't attribute them to a god. Understandable given the worldview, but still irksome.

you know...the fuzziness christians so proudly present as proof of god also shows up when "scientologists" discover that Xenu killed thousands of souls and that not all seems to be what they thought.

The fuzziness, and this actually comes from personal experience, appears when you become "aware" that human looking extraterrestrials created humans in their laboratories. I even looked at trees as a sort of sculpture. It was weird.

I'm over all that bs now, but I can assure you you get fuzziness whenever you feel like there's somehting bigger than you ....and that Big thing enables you to live a happy life and is there to protect you.

I never had a "conversion". I was always a sort of religion-free individual. My parents never surrounded me with stuff like baptism and bibles at all.

[SezMe]

I'm not sure what you mean trusting a person's decision. Do you mean trusting that they are sincere? In that case, I would trust the conversion to atheism more because the cost of being a self-declared atheist is fairly high in our society while there is little cost and numerous benefits to being a self-declared Christian. Other religions, such as conversion to Judaism, Islam, etc. tend to fall between those two extremes.
I generally agree with this post but would have to leave out Islam in the last sentence. Declaring oneself to be a non-Muslim in many theocratic Muslim states gains you the death penalty. Ditto homosexuality.

[Beth]

I generally agree with this post but would have to leave out Islam in the last sentence. Declaring oneself to be a non-Muslim in many theocratic Muslim states gains you the death penalty. Ditto homosexuality.

That's a good point. I was thinking of the society I live in (U.S.).

[kellyb]

So does anyone want to answer: why do you trust a person's decision to abandon theism for atheism more than a person's choice to abandon atheism for theism?

What do you mean by "trust" there?
I think most people are being genuine when they state what they've come to believe.

:confused:

[Dancing David]

So does anyone want to answer: why do you trust a person's decision to abandon theism for atheism more than a person's choice to abandon atheism for theism?

I don't. I think that a conversion is likely to be based upon emotions, they have their own priorities. I do judge if they feel ever condemn other people for not sharing their POV. I have had friends convert to Xianity and get obnoxious, I have good friend who is a militant atheist.

Both are disrespectful.

[articulett]

In my experience, I've never known a person to abandon atheism for theism, but I know a lot of the reverse. Since belief is a feeling and sometimes it takes a long time to realize that you don't believe something, and society frowns upon a lack of faith, I can't imagine becoming an atheist in a eureka moment...

There are two names trumpeted over and over of men who were agnostic who became believers (of Christianity no less...original sin, virgin births, god killing his kid--who was really him to pay for original sin...etc.). Those names would be C.S. Lewis and Francis Collins. C.S. Lewis is long dead and said inane things like "pride is the worse sin of all". (I'd have thought torture or rape, or child molestation or murder would have been among the worst) and that sinning in your heart is the same as doing the sin itself. (Molest my kid in your heart, but if you do it in person I will stab you in that heart) ...Certainly thoughts cannot be helped in the same manner actions can which makes our laws seem more evolved than C.S. Lewis' savior.

And Francis Collins understands evolution so he can't deny it...but his god lies outside nature and can't be defined by nature and he had some sort of "inner knowingness" while looking at a stream that branched in 3, etc. Plus the world seems specially made for humanity (backwards "goldilocks universe" thinking) and golly gee, how could morality evolve? (clearly, he's not one who studies ants or nature or game theory much). To me, he just wants to believe that his "inner knowingness" is real, so he doesn't examine it and places his god out of the realm of scrutiny while actively maintaining ignorance to keep the belief alive.

I've known lots of people who come to forums claiming to be atheists or who say, "I used to be an atheist, but..." that very clearly seem to be lying which careful prodding shows. There's this notion of converting people by pretending you are "one of them" and then posing questions like you just thought of them yourself for the very first time. "Say, the eye is very complex, how could an animal survive with half an eye?" ETC. I guess Jesus forgives their little deceptions in his name. For all I know, atheists are going to believer sites and woo sites and doing the same, but I never have. I suspect atheists may value honesty more than theists.

Usually the road to atheism is a long thought out process where there is no turning back. I know people threaten "god" by claiming they've lost faith when something bad happens...but those aren't the atheists I know of. Those are people who seem mad at "god"; whereas to me, being mad at god is as irrelevant as being mad at Mithras. It just doesn't carry any weight or meaning. I don't worry about my "engrams" either (Scientology word for negative energy thingies that stick to you).

I mean kids rarely have an epiphany moment where they stop believing in Santa Clause or the tooth fairy--so I can't imagine a sudden conversion to or a sudden conversion away from atheism. I've seen people religion hop--having a faith of the week...but I can't imagine actively "not believing" in this faith or that faith for a week. I can't imagine any atheist as unbelieving as I am converting...because atheists tend to think faith and feelings are bad ways to know something...and we know that people are prone to delusions, misperceptions, and fooling themselves-- I just like the truth...I would rather not know something than be fooling myself.

[CapelDodger]

My own transition was rather gradual and took years. I can't even pinpoint a moment when I thought "Hey! I'm an atheist!".

I can't pinpoint a moment when I realised there were still adults who believed in this stuff. I'd always assumed it was a scam to keep children in order, like the bogey-man or Father Christmas. Gradually the horrible truth dawned on me ...

Naturally, no religion has ever come close to convincing me of its validity. Never having had religion, I've never had need of it, and you surely have to need belief to believe without evidence or rational argument.

Science (via anthropology, biology and psychology) can explain the existence of religion. Religion, on the other hand, explains nothing. It used to have a monopoly of "explanation" but has been in constant retreat before the advance of science.

As an aside, I know a chap who was brought up Jewish and realised he was an atheist in his early teens. After a while he realised that this meant pork was just another kind of meat. So he gave up meat. He didn't lose the ingrained gag-reaction to pork, instead it came to encompass all meat. Go figure. I think I understand it, but then I'm vegetarian ... :)

[triadboy]

So does anyone want to answer: why do you trust a person's decision to abandon theism for atheism more than a person's choice to abandon atheism for theism?

I think some xians who claim they 'used to be atheists' - in actuality, just ignored religion when they were younger. That's what happened to me. I went through a long period where I just ignored religion entirely. It wasn't a question of whether I believed or not - I didn't think about it at all. I think some xians can look back on that period in their lives and say "I didn't believe! I was an atheist!". When really they should say "I didn't even think about it.".

[triadboy]

Heaven sounds rather boring to me. What precisely do you imagine you and your sky-spook will do for eternity?

I read a Secret Coptic Gospel that claimed they played a lot of that board game Clue in Heaven. Sounds like fun!

[Paulhoff]

Heaven sounds rather boring to me. What precisely do you imagine you and your sky-spook will do for eternity?
First billion years, looking at god, next billion years, looking at god, next billion years, looking at god, etc.

Paul

:) :) :)

[Hourglassmemory]

I somehow can't Edit my previous message on this board.

you know...the fuzziness christians so proudly present as proof of god also shows up when "scientologists" discover that Xenu killed thousands of souls and that not all seems to be what they thought.

The fuzziness, and this actually comes from personal experience, appears when you become "aware" that human looking extraterrestrials created humans in their laboratories. I even looked at trees as a sort of sculpture. It was weird.

I'm over all that bs now, but I can assure you you get fuzziness whenever you feel like there's somehting bigger than you ....and that Big thing enables you to live a happy life and is there to protect you.

I never had a "conversion". I was always a sort of religion-free individual. My parents never surrounded me with stuff like baptism and bibles at all.

Churches always freaked me out. This excessive golden rococo style and dust covered statues of ill painted Jesus Chirsts looking up in this very disturbing way and these monotonic lectures on... something.
And the long wooden benches in front of me were always filled with old ladies who knew the lectures by heart. I never said anything when they told everyone to get up and pray. The most interesting part of it all was the pipe organ.

[Beth]

There are legimate and sometimes dramatic conversions both directions. I would expect there to be more conversions from religion to atheism than the other way round simply because the majority are religious. Fewer atheists mean fewer conversions from atheism to religion.

For those interested, there is a book about such conversions:

Amazing Conversions: Why Some Turn to Faith & Others Abandon Religion by Bob Altemeyer and Bruce Hunsberger

[Nancarrow]

Bart Ehrman said that he converted to Christianity because they showed him the Jesus shaped hole in his heart and it got rid of confused and lonely feelings.

Under those circumstances the first person I'd want to see would be... a cardiologist! Ba-dump tchh!

Actually the bastid would probably just take a photo and sell it to the Weekly World News.

[opqdan]

I expect that most of the people who say that they were once an atheist but now a believer were never really an atheist. Like most people I have talked to about my religious views, they see atheism as either anger at god (which a previous poster point out would make little sense), or a worshipping of satan (or similat, which also, doesn't make much sense). I suspect that when people talk about being an atheist in the past, they just mean that they were an average step-above-agnistic believer that makes up the better part of the population, or they are completley fabricating the story in order to get an 'in'.

Of course, such an argument is based off of nothing and holds no more weight than the Chrisitians who say that a true Christian would not abandon their faith so you must never have truly believed (extremely annoying). I'm sure you've all heard it before.

I find it easier to imagine a conversion from God->!God than the other way around, but perhaps that is solely due to my position on the matter (!God), I am sure that Christians feel the opposite conversion makes much more sense.

Just another example of the human nature to validate our own decisions and to put everything within the frame of our own experiences. It seems that admitting that conversion is possible is as bad as converting yourself. We want other people to make the same decisions that we have so that we can say "see, I was right" if only to ourselves. It works this way with everything, the music that we like, the movies that we watch, books we read, etc. Everytime somebody else also chooses that thing, we get a bump that says "yep, I made a good decision". When people choose differently we need to rationalize it away to avoid cognitive dissonance or believing that we've made the wrong choice. "Well that person just doesn't see the deeper meaning in the lyrics of the song, they
were never a real fan anyways"

Edited to say: I realize that I mistyped :a lot: in my post, and I am not fixing it... neener neener

[pgwenthold]

I try avoid the "no true scotsman" game, and if someone says they "used to be an atheist" then whatever.

However, I question a lot of these "I used to be atheist but am now a christian" claims, just to see why they switched. Too many times, it is for something exceedingly stupid, like Pascal's Wager or Lord/Lier/Lunatic. I figure, I don't know if you were atheist or not, but if you were and fell for a LLL fallacy, then you weren't the cleverest atheist of all time, and it doesn't say much about your reasoning skills, and it does not reflect well on the thought processes of a theist.

To be honest, if you are gullible enough to be swayed by something as transparent as Pascal's Wager, then I would prefer that you be a theist. I don't want you giving atheists a bad name with your cluelessness.

[mijopaalmc]

I try avoid the "no true scotsman" game, and if someone says they "used to be an atheist" then whatever.

However, I question a lot of these "I used to be atheist but am now a christian" claims, just to see why they switched. Too many times, it is for something exceedingly stupid, like Pascal's Wager or Lord/Lier/Lunatic. I figure, I don't know if you were atheist or not, but if you were and fell for a LLL fallacy, then you weren't the cleverest atheist of all time, and it doesn't say much about your reasoning skills, and it does not reflect well on the thought processes of a theist.

To be honest, if you are gullible enough to be swayed by something as transparent as Pascal's Wager, then I would prefer that you be a theist. I don't want you giving atheists a bad name with your cluelessness.

Like I said, people do crazy things to be accepted and that was my major reason for wanting the convert to Christianity, not any particular argument someone made, but the feeling of happiness I got from belonging. (I think I'm entitled to a little emotional instability, especially in my teens, without besmirching the good name of "atheist"). However, I do think that I approached it more cautiously than most at least when I was in college as I had just spent a lot of time building up confidence to come out and was studying biochemistry, biophysics, and molecular biology in school. I know being a science major doesn't automatically make on a skeptic but one of my main concerns about "becoming" a Christian was that I would have to abandon my acceptance of evolution over night. As I said before, once the strong community feeling passed, I went back to my previous beliefs as those were the ones that were continually reinforced.