Double Lift: A few questions...

[treble_head]

Working on my double lift (yeah, I know, should have been the first thing I learned in cards, but I started with mentalism, not the cheap crap either, I've got Richard Osterlind on my side :) )... Anyway, got a few questions.

As far as knowing the # of cards, does one just get a "feel" for how many they're lifting? I've heard that, and I'm wondering just how much practice that might take. (this is the hardest part I'm having so far, which leads me to question 2...)

How often is a break used beforehand to avoid hesitation? It seems like it might be pretty easy to pull off during false shuffles/cuts, (or real ones, for that matter), just wondering about your take on it.

Taking the cards from the back seems unnatural and more likely to separate the cards, yet I've seen pros do it. Is there a reason or advantage to it, or is it just sort of the "way they learned it", etc...

Do you feel that I use too many ellipses / parentheses? (be honest).

After flipping the card(s), is a thumb-break inappropriate? I seemed to accidentally do it automatically, and since I'm just going to flip the card(s) back almost immediately, I didn't feel it would be a reveal, and makes it really freaking easy on the second flip. (And no, I don't make the rookie mistake of flipping the cards back in a different way than I flipped them the first time. I just push out with my thumb and flip them the same way)

Any other tips welcome.

eta: I've been holding the deck with my right hand (not dealer position), and I've heard that tips people off. Is that possibly true? Do left-handed people have to switch sides to make it more "realistic?"

[Bob Klase]

As far as knowing the # of cards, does one just get a "feel" for how many they're lifting? I've heard that, and I'm wondering just how much practice that might take.

Yes. It takes a little while- how long depends on you and how much you practice. I used to put an ace, two, three, four and five on top in order to practice. Then as soon as I turned the cards over I could see how many I had.

How often is a break used beforehand to avoid hesitation?

How often depends on who is doing it and the type of DL they do. I've seen a lot of people do it poorly because they put a break in immediately before lifting and putting in the break causes an unnatural hesitation.

Taking the cards from the back seems unnatural and more likely to separate the cards, yet I've seen pros do it..

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Appears unnatural is something that you should think about before using. And the good pros probably have a good reason if that's what they're doing- or perhaps they just know they're good enough that the cards won't separate. Without knowing exactly what you're asking I wouldn't say much more than that.

Do you feel that I use too many ellipses / parentheses? (be honest).

Yes, but that's another common mistake you'll also see the pros make.

After flipping the card(s), is a thumb-break inappropriate?

Not necessarily. It might be if it draws attention to the fact that something is going on, but it could look completely natural- especially if you use it when you're just showing a card.

I've been holding the deck with my right hand (not dealer position), and I've heard that tips people off. Is that possibly true?

Again, it could be true. But depends on what you're doing. Do you move the deck to your right hand, do the move and then move the deck back to your left hand for everything else? If done repeatedly that might indicate something suspicious.

Do left-handed people have to switch sides to make it more "realistic?"

I'd have to say no. I'm right-handed but almost everything I do with cards I do left handed. I'm not sure how switching sides would make anything more realistic.

[firecoins]

Working on my double lift (yeah, I know, should have been the first thing I learned in cards, but I started with mentalism, not the cheap crap either, I've got Richard Osterlind on my side.

No, the DL is a hard move. It is not the first thing you should have learned.

The best mentalists tend to have a good backround in sleight of hand in my opinion. Ostelind and Banacheck are exceptions not the rule. Max Maven, Gary Kurtz others all have strong backrounds in sleight of hand.

You get 2 cards by getting the feel down. Or learning they very tough pinky count. Darwin Ortiz teaches that.

[Checkmite]

I think having the deck in your right hand shouldn't be a "tip off" if the spec is aware that this is the way you normally hold the cards. Also, always lightly resting your other hand on top of the deck while you're not doing anything also helps. Don't "play" with the deck or riffle them or snap them, though, as this indicates activity and will have the spec almost always looking down there. If they're burning your hands, just start talking (start telling a story or a joke or something) to them and keep talking until they finally look up at you

[Peter S.]

See my post and video here:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2364325#post2364325

[Cain]

There are countless threads on this topic on the Magic Cafe. See The Workers section for tons of advice. What I say is always the same: Learn to pinky count. The previously mentioned Darwin Ortiz, who is an expert technician, says, and I agree, that it is one of the five most important sleights in card magic. You can use it to do triples, count a dozen cards, the break allows you to show doubles more than one way, add a specific number of broken cards onto packets, and on and on. I do not know anyone who has said learning to pinky count was time misspent.

Also, like Klase (and John Carney), I am right-hand dominant but handle cards like a "lefty." I don't think I follow your observation as to what could possibly tip anyone off to anything.

(oh.... and on the subject of ellipses and parentheses.... I don't think you use too many (but that's just me)).

[treble_head]

Yes. It takes a little while- how long depends on you and how much you practice. I used to put an ace, two, three, four and five on top in order to practice. Then as soon as I turned the cards over I could see how many I had. a good idea. I'll give that a shot.

How often depends on who is doing it and the type of DL they do. I've seen a lot of people do it poorly because they put a break in immediately before lifting and putting in the break causes an unnatural hesitation. I was thinking more along the lines of making a break during or just after the shuffle (in stacking the cards). i.e. doing a false overhand shuffle at the end and breaking the last 2 cards while doing it...


I'm not sure what you mean by that. Appears unnatural is something that you should think about before using. And the good pros probably have a good reason if that's what they're doing- or perhaps they just know they're good enough that the cards won't separate. Without knowing exactly what you're asking I wouldn't say much more than that. What I mean is taking the cards from the back (toward the bottom of the thumb) before pulling the card(s) over. It looks less like they're dealing or flipping the card to me and looks more like they're counting cards with their thumbs. Maybe it's just that I'm expecting it, but it seems rather obvious when it happens, to me.


Not necessarily. It might be if it draws attention to the fact that something is going on, but it could look completely natural- especially if you use it when you're just showing a card. That's entirely and exactly what I use it for, so far, (ambitious card, etc).

Thanks for your answers. I've already modified a bit of what I've been doing to make it look a little more natural while trying to match my skill-set.

[treble_head]

No, the DL is a hard move. It is not the first thing you should have learned. I didn't really mean that. Sort of "one of the first advanced things one should learn in card handling." Which actually brings me to another point. I'm trying to learn keeping a stacked deck with false shuffles and strip cuts (up the ladder and other full-retention shuffles, etc). Should I concentrate on one sleight at a time, or is it good to work on 2 or more at the same time? [/quote]

The best mentalists tend to have a good backround in sleight of hand in my opinion. Ostelind and Banacheck are exceptions not the rule. Max Maven, Gary Kurtz others all have strong backrounds in sleight of hand. not sure what that means for me, since I'm going the opposite way.

You get 2 cards by getting the feel down. Or learning they very tough pinky count. Darwin Ortiz teaches that. Fair enough. I just wanted to be confident that it will happen and it's not some super-secret. I once got really sick of magic when I learned that what I was told wasn't true and it was really just "feel", which I eventually learned and got down. Just making sure my instincts were right.

[treble_head]

See my post and video here:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2364325#post2364325
f'ing great. I was trying to see where you had done a double lift, and I honestly couldn't tell if it it was the first lift or the second. I have something to aspire to. I won't imagine that you'll answer me directly, but because of the position of where you took the cards from, on your first sleight (the first trick of 2), I would imagine that the second was actually the Double Lift. Great stuff, anyway.

[RobertlewisIR]

It takes a while to get a feel for it. I'm still working on that myself. But there are a couple tricks I do that work really well with a break and some that don't. It depends on what else you're doing and how much misdirection you have to work with.

[Monza]

I agree that learning to pinky count is worth the practice. I use it all the time and it is a valuable tool outside of a DL. For my DL, I pinky count to get the break and then use essentially the DL from the first few pages of Expert Card Technique. It has the advantage of looking like a push-off double. (For a real push-off double, Simon Lovell's Second to None manuscript is great.)

The best advice for utilizing the DL: make sure your singles look exactly the same. It is amazing how often this is neglected by magicians, pros and amatuers alike.

[firecoins]

I didn't really mean that. Sort of "one of the first advanced things one should learn in card handling." Which actually brings me to another point. I'm trying to learn keeping a stacked deck with false shuffles and strip cuts (up the ladder and other full-retention shuffles, etc). Should I concentrate on one sleight at a time, or is it good to work on 2 or more at the same time?

not sure what that means for me, since I'm going the opposite way.

Fair enough. I just wanted to be confident that it will happen and it's not some super-secret. I once got really sick of magic when I learned that what I was told wasn't true and it was really just "feel", which I eventually learned and got down. Just making sure my instincts were right.[/quote]

I think its alright to learn several things at once.

Mentalists usullly are better with experience as a magician. My opinion is all.

I worked with a stacked deck. Are you working on close up ar stand up? For stand up I do something very simple. I cut the deck in a manner that looks like on overhand shuffle. I keeping putting the top half on the bottom very quickly as I talk to the audience. I am looking for a volunteer or telling jokes as I do this "shuffle". When I finally get to the trick, everyone assumes my cutting was shuffling.

The DL much like all sleights depends upon the attitude in which you do it, not just the technical aspect.

[dannagain]

i know it's petty but i really dont think that this is the right place to discuss sleights since its viewable to non magicians. try

magichat(dot)co(dot)uk

a very good free magic site

[treble_head]

i know it's petty but i really dont think that this is the right place to discuss sleights since its viewable to non magicians. try

magichat(dot)co(dot)uk

a very good free magic site

I'd rather you hadn't posted that. Is that going to stop me from looking? No. So, thank you, but try not to post explanation sites in the future.

[dannagain]

why don't you like explanation sites? all of the tricks available there have been created by the members of the site. (i've made 3 for that site so far). no copyright laws are violated and non magicians cannot view the tricks so i don't see anything wrong with telling budding magicians about that site. it's very useful. what's you specific objection to it?

[Mick Houlahan]

Yes to the pinky count. Learn to do quick bursts of 2 or 3 and you'll have a valuable tool. Parentheses are okay, but if you ever see an ellipsis that doesn't indicate omitted material, step on it at once so it can't breed. (Unless you're a teenage girl penning wistful love letters.)
Also: you're much better off going to the Cafe Secret Sessions board to discuss these matters.

[NeilC]

Over the years I've tried various methods and I find the best for me, under performance pressure, is to take a break. I will alter the effect slightly to make this natural. E.g. if the card has been "lost" in teh deck then I will say something about the card being lost in the pack and spread the cards a bit as if merely gesturing to match my words and take the easy break on offer. It's foolproof and I have no evidence it is noticeable or detracts from the effects I do.