Did I miss the part about the motive?

[negativ]

The only things I can remember being put forth by CTers as NWO motives for 9/11 are:

1. Larry Silverstein and his Amazing Technicolor Insurance Policy
2. So They could steal the eleventy-zillion dollars in gold and silver and extremely cheesy collectible plates (http://bradfordexchange.collectiblestoday.com/ct/store/brad/plate/_prod/_14) stored at the WTC
3. To obtain public and Congressional support for invading Iraq so the NWO can steal their oil and make the citizens wear female underpants on their heads.
4. So They can just go ahead and fire up the crematoria at the FEMA death camps and the Half-Life 2-style police state that still haven't come into being 5+ years later.

#1 has been thoroughly addressed here and elsewhere. Ditto #2, although the discerning eye will notice that the Hee Haw (http://www.morethings.com/fan/hee_haw/photo_galleries.htm) collectible plates are conspicuously absent... maybe that's what they were after all along!!!!11

#3 is also ridiculous. Consider this hypothetical instant messaging session:


<G-Dub69> sup doods
<Whips-n-Cheney> sup
<DonDonRummy> yo
<NeoCondi> you're up early, how's your head :)
<G-Dub69> never had any complaints, lol
<Whips-n-Cheney> lol
<DonDonRummy> !!
<NeoCondi> ><
<G-Dub69> nah its not to bad, fu**in kennedy drank that whole bottle of grand reserve before I could even get a taste of it
<Whips-n-Cheney> haha holy s*** - he was only there for what, like 2 hours?
<G-Dub69> yeah...
<DonDonRummy> I feel like ass. I've gotta quit going to those parties at the Grove.. I'm getting too old for this s***
<NeoCondi> did anyone get video of Gore? lol
<Whips-n-Cheney> ?? what did I miss?
<G-Dub69> I saw that, lol
<NeoCondi> he took that stupid magic marker he was using to illustrate his global warming charts and drew a Frank Zappa mustache on Tipper after she passed out.
<Whips-n-Cheney> rofl!!!!!
<G-Dub69> So anyway, I have an idea.
<DonDonRummy> yeah right
<Whips-n-Cheney> ha ha, alert the press
<NeoCondi> does it hurt?
<G-Dub69> omg, F U
<G-Dub69> I want to invade Iraq.
** <ColinNotColon> has joined the channel
<ColinNotColon> word
<NeoCondi> hey!
<DonDonRummy> morning... where's my coffee?
<ColinNotColon> hey Condi! - Rum, GFY
<DonDonRummy> sigh... so hard to find good help these days
<Whips-n-Cheney> yer just in time, W was about to tell us his "idea", lol
<G-Dub69> stfu "DICK"... I will kick your ass
<Whips-n-Cheney> j/k dude, chill...
<G-Dub69> let's go jogging tomorrow... had any heart attacks lately, bitch?
<G-Dub69> so anyway, I want to invade Iraq.
<ColinNotColon> wtf? why?
<G-Dub69> because saddam is a jack hole and he's got it coming? Plus we should steal his oil so we can get richer.
<ColinNotColon> granted, but you know nobody will go for it
<DonDonRummy> Yeah.
<ColinNotColon> the public would go apes**t ..
<DonDonRummy> Yep. Not gonna happen.
<Whips-n-Cheney> well if the problem is just getting their permission, I have an idea I've been sitting on for a while
<NeoCondi> of COURSE you've been sitting on your idea, given that your brain is in your ass.
<G-Dub69> lol
<DonDonRummy> pwnd
<Whips-n-Cheney> seriously. The public would think we're evil and horrible if we just invade Iraq, so I say let's do this:
<Whips-n-Cheney> Let's pretend to crash a bunch of planes into a bunch of different places and kill an unpredictable number of people, certainly in the thousands, and we'll blame it on Saudi Muslims, and claim publicly that the masterminds behind it all are hiding in Afghanistan and possibly Pakistan. THEN we'll invade Iraq. lolz
<G-Dub69> wtf lol
<NeoCondi> lol ur still drunk
<ColinNotColon> so your moral compass prevents you from invading iraq without public support, but you're OK with just going ahead and murdering American citizens? What if someone figures it all out?
<Whips-n-Cheney> Not to worry. We've got agents at the JREF.
<G-Dub69> Hmm.
<NeoCondi> It's worth a shot.
<DonDonRummy> That might work.
<ColinNotColon> OK whatever. I have to go back to bed. l8rz.
<NeoCondi> cya
** <ColinNotColon> has left the channel


and as for #4... well, let's be SERIOUS.

[Swing Dangler]

I understand your thread's title, but what were the motives or goals for that matter of the terrorists?

[stateofgrace]

I understand your thread's title, but what were the motives or goals for that matter of the terrorists?

Are you suggesting that Islamic terrorists had no motive to attack the US? Please expand.

[negativ]

I understand your thread's title, but what were the motives or goals for that matter of the terrorists?

Well since bin Laden and Zawahiri are CIA agents, we couldn't possibly begin to take them at their word when they explained over and over again exactly what their motives and goals were, could we?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[gumboot]

I understand your thread's title, but what were the motives or goals for that matter of the terrorists?



Goals of Al Qaeda for the 9/11 Attacks:

1) Kill lots of Americans
2) Make American public fearful of future attacks
3) American public put pressure on US Government to withdraw from Middle East
4) The US stops getting involved in activities around the world
5) Al Qaeda targets next government (repeat steps 1) to 4) with new country)
6) Repeat 5) until all problematic countries have stopped meddling

Al Qaeda's Motive:

Establishment of a global Islamic Caliphate.

-Gumboot

[MikeW]

We don't have to guess what al Qaeda are doing. They've told us. There's a document on their "Strategy to the year 2020" (by Muhammad Ibrahim Makkawi / Sayf al-Adel) that lays it out, but basically it runs something like this.

Stage #1, provoke America into invading Muslim lands.

This would then start stage #2, where you incite more Muslims to attack the US and Western targets.

Then in stage #3 they expand the conflict, getting the US fighting a long war of attrition in as many places as possible.

Stage #4 sees al Qaeda becoming a global, decentralised network. That is, you "join" just by agreeing with what they want, you don't actually have to sign up or know other members (I don't see why this is stage #4 as it seems to me they're already there).

Their hope is that the US becomes overstretched, unable to fight on all these fronts and collapses (stage #5). After that they move on to overthrow governments relatively friendly to the west, in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and so on, et voila: the new Caliphate.

[beachnut]

I understand your thread's title, but what were the motives or goals for that matter of the terrorists?
Darn, UBL said he was up for killing USA people. He wanted to kill USA people. Is that a motive. UBL says, on TV, I want to kill USA people.

Motive?

[Swing Dangler]

Are you suggesting that Islamic terrorists had no motive to attack the US? Please expand.

No, that is your mind reading more into the question.
I'm simply looking for the motive of the terrorists, specifically Al-Q. To my knowledge, it was the removal of the U.S. from Saudi Arabia.

There's a document on their "Strategy to the year 2020" (by Muhammad Ibrahim Makkawi / Sayf al-Adel) that lays it out, but basically it runs something like this.
That document is a bunch of writings compiled and collected by a journalist and later it surfaced. I'm not aware if this has been verified by the terrorists. But as I read some of the analysis of this document, I wonder why our foreign policy seems to be playing right into the hands of the terrorists strategy.

[portlandatheist]

The only things I can remember being put forth by CTers as NWO motives for 9/11 are:

...


Aren't you forgetting about the Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline? The US needed a reason to pillage Afghanistan of its vast wealth and natural resources. We're all going to be rich and swimming in oil!!!!! MWHAAAAAAA!

[PhantomWolf]

I wonder why our foreign policy seems to be playing right into the hands of the terrorists strategy.

Have you actually bothered looking at the guy running your country recently? He's an idiot (okay so not so much an idoit as to leave his watch on while shoving his arms into a rabid albanian crowd, but still only a few notches about a chimp.)

[Swing Dangler]

I wonder why our foreign policy seems to be playing right into the hands of the terrorists strategy.

Have you actually bothered looking at the guy running your country recently? He's an idiot (okay so not so much an idoit as to leave his watch on while shoving his arms into a rabid albanian crowd, but still only a few notches about a chimp.)

Careful now, POM might come and attack you when you criticize our President.

[Caspian88]

Here's an interesting thought. Their strategy is to get us to invade various Muslim countries, where we'll suffer untold suicide bombings and other attacks that wear us down, correct? At the same time, they remain difficult to infiltrate, by keeping a decentralized organization, and the leadership hides somewhere and keeps that position a secret at all costs.

Now, how do we kill them? We really can't infiltrate them, so your average assassination attempt is unlikely to work. At the same time, we can't just bomb them, because we don't know exactly where they are, they can move, and they can hide under rocks and whatnote and withstand your average bomb, and we don't have the money to be able to drop penetrating bombs all over the Afghan-Pakistan mountain range (plus, we don't really want to hit civilians). Pretty much the only way to kill them, from what I can see, is to send troops in to search those mountains. I'm going to assume that the only way we can stop them from ever attacking us in the future is to kill them, which might be an incorrect assumption, but for the sake of this argument, I'll make it.

So, again, how do we kill them? We have to send in troops. We're stuck - either we don't send in troops and get attacked (us or our allies), or we send in troops and they get attacked, and hopefully we get them in the process.

Maybe, the only way to find and kill them is to play into their hands. Frankly, I want them dead - anyone who is trying to kill me must be prevented from ever being able to do so, and the simplest way to do that is to kill them first. That's the way I see it. What information I have seems to indicate that the only way to stop them from ever killing me is to kill them, so I feel that we need to find them and kill them. Maybe we're going to lose a fair number of soldiers doing so. Maybe Iraq was a strategic shift away from what should be our primary target, but I don't know enough about that situation to make an adequete assessment.

What I do know is, that however good it may feel to call Bush an idiot (and I do consider him an undiagnosed schizophrenic, like all religious believers), you really can't just boil things down like that. It's an ad hominem and shouldn't be used in a serious discussion.

[uk_dave]

There is an alternative to killing everyone: remove the support AQ enjoys from the disaffected muslim population.

The aim of AQ is to attain power.

The end of the cold war left a vacuum where once the superpowers played their global games.

This vacuum has resulted in some regimes finding support from the west or the east dropping off.

At the same time, the pawns in the global game find themselves looking around for something 'productive' to do. It's either that or they give up their exhalted positions as leaders of the revolutionary struggle against atheism and go and get day jobs.

So, they look for new enemies which can fire up the people and help the leadership to remain in it's position of power.

The great satan, the USA is an obvious target.

Add to this mix the ongoing sore of the palestiian israeli conflict, and the abject poverty that many muslims endure while living in prosperous countries and you have the basis for a steady stream of willing recruits who can be conned into believing they are doing the work of the god they worship.

You also have the kind of vicious inversion of desire that occurs when someone is tantalised with the unattainable. So poverty stricken countries in north africa are bombarded with sattellite tv broadcasts from southern europe showing a standard of living far from the grasp of many north africans. So, instead of desire, they can feel hate.

Remove the basis for recruitment to AQ and the problem may be solved.

Introduce real democracy and stop supporting dictatorships
Find a solution to the israeli/palestinian problem
Redistribute the wealth of oil rich nations more justly

Religion has always been the panacea for the poor and disenfrachised. Some religions then become subverted by the power hungry who see a need amongst their followers for some kind of action.

Take away the 'need' and you may reduce the attractiveness of the fundamentalists.

Take away desperation from people and maybe they won't do desperate acts.

Might be worth a try.

Might be better than killing lots of people and creating more terrorists.

[AZCat]

The only things I can remember being put forth by CTers as NWO motives for 9/11 are:
...
4. So They can just go ahead and fire up the crematoria at the FEMA death camps and the Half-Life 2-style police state that still haven't come into being 5+ years later.
...


Half-Life 2 was in development for, like 6 years, and you expect the actual police state to get implemented in less time? Who do you have running the project - some marketing person? Fascism (whether real or virtual) takes time! The natty uniforms alone can take up to three years to perfect. You think it's easy to design something that says, "I'm evil, I'm in control, and I'm stylish" especially when all development wants is "something in black, with lots of bulges"?

[gumboot]

There is an alternative to killing everyone: remove the support AQ enjoys from the disaffected muslim population.

The aim of AQ is to attain power.

The end of the cold war left a vacuum where once the superpowers played their global games.

This vacuum has resulted in some regimes finding support from the west or the east dropping off.

At the same time, the pawns in the global game find themselves looking around for something 'productive' to do. It's either that or they give up their exhalted positions as leaders of the revolutionary struggle against atheism and go and get day jobs.

So, they look for new enemies which can fire up the people and help the leadership to remain in it's position of power.

The great satan, the USA is an obvious target.

Add to this mix the ongoing sore of the palestiian israeli conflict, and the abject poverty that many muslims endure while living in prosperous countries and you have the basis for a steady stream of willing recruits who can be conned into believing they are doing the work of the god they worship.

You also have the kind of vicious inversion of desire that occurs when someone is tantalised with the unattainable. So poverty stricken countries in north africa are bombarded with sattellite tv broadcasts from southern europe showing a standard of living far from the grasp of many north africans. So, instead of desire, they can feel hate.

Remove the basis for recruitment to AQ and the problem may be solved.

Introduce real democracy and stop supporting dictatorships
Find a solution to the israeli/palestinian problem
Redistribute the wealth of oil rich nations more justly

Religion has always been the panacea for the poor and disenfrachised. Some religions then become subverted by the power hungry who see a need amongst their followers for some kind of action.

Take away the 'need' and you may reduce the attractiveness of the fundamentalists.

Take away desperation from people and maybe they won't do desperate acts.

Might be worth a try.

Might be better than killing lots of people and creating more terrorists.



It's a nice idea, but I don't think it will work. Firstly, most of these terrorists come from those same oil rich nations. The 9/11 hijackers, for example, were all well educated, and while not necessarily rich, certainly not living in poverty.

Supporting democracy is also a nice idea, but again, it has its issues. Look at Iraq. The people democratically elected a fundamentalist religious government. Islamic law has been incorporated into the Constitution.

The other problem is, as we've seen in Afghanistan and Iraq, replacing dictators and religious theocracy with democracy is somewhat messy. And expensive.

Regarding Palestine/Israel... there's only two options for an end to the conflict. Wipe Palestine off the map, or wipe Israel off the map. Those two states cannot, and never will, coexist. It has to be one or the other.

Wiping Israel off the map means another holocaust. Israel's neighbours have made that clear enough. Wiping Palestine off the map means giving the entire region to Israel, a good fifty years of increased bloodshed, and then after that, assuming Israel survives, peace. Maybe.

This conflict will not cease until one of two outcomes emerges:
1) Every follower of radical Islam is dead
2) Every westerner is dead

Radical Islam and Western Civilisation cannot coexist.

-Gumboot

[Travis]

Radical Islam is not solely the domain of the impoverished. Nor is it the domain of the uneducated. It is wealthy, educated, patient and tactically adept. Those characteristics are what makes it so dangerous and resilient. We shouldn't pretend that Al Qaeda only hated the USA due to military bases in Saudi Arabia. Nor should we pretend that withdrawing our troops from the region will solve the problem either.

As Gumboot said, what Radical Islam wants is something the west will not give it; a completely Islamic theocratic global state governed completely by Sharia. Remember that Afghanistan under the Taliban is exactly what these people want and is exactly what the world would be like if they ever win.

[uk_dave]

True, it's not the sole domain of the impoverished.

But the impoverished, disenfranchised do make up a large number of its adherents.

Just as fundamentalist christian beliefs are sometimes held by those who are seemingly intelligent and financially comfortable.

But ultimately it is the sweaty masses who make up the majority.

And as with christianity, when times are tough those at the sharp end are sometimes inclined to seek out a more dynamic form of christian worship because it seems to be actually doing something to alleviate their problems. Unfortunately doind something can sometimes mean taking action against people of different or no faith.

The radical muslim version of this is more dangerous because of the acceptance of martyrdom as a means to an end.

All I'm saying is that the majority of muslims would probably benefit and enjoy life in a liberal democracy, but that such a society is tantalisingly out of reach for many and it is this inequality which then drives them into the arms of the psychos who subvert their religion as part of their own warped claim for dominance.

We survived 50 years of the cold war and 30 years of IRA terrorism.

When both of those conflicts were at their height I'm sure people could see no end in sight. But life goes on and new generations come along with a different world view and things begin to change.

I prefer to be an optimist.