Questions about Ectoplasm

[Leroy]

According to Victor Zammit, spirits can form ectoplasm on the bodies of the living,

This ectoplasm allows intelligences from the afterlife to reduce their vibrations to the physical human level. When there is sufficient ectoplasm an afterlife intelligence can materialize and become solid. Pets and loved ones who have died become recognizable and feel like living beings. Wax impressions have been taken of their hands which show real fingerprints.


If waxed impressions have been taken and show real fingerprints,

1. why can't we run a copy of those prints to see if they really belong to the deceased?


Baron Von Schrenck-Notzing, a Munich physician, showed that ectoplasm is composed of leucocytes— white or colorless blood cells— and epithelial cells— those from the various protective tissues of the body. During a materialization it is taken from the bodies of the medium and the sitters (Stemman, 1975:57).

And [IF] this is possible [which I don't believe], why claim that it is spirits doing it?

Zammit (http://www.victorzammit.com/book/chapter10.html)

After viewing the above link can believers understand why it is so difficult and in my case, seems ridiculous, to believe these things?

[Leroy]

What is this link about? Zammit claims James Randi lied (http://www.victorzammit.com/skeptics/deluding.html)


From Weblink above - When this closed minded-skeptic/materialist JR wilfully LIES and intentionally MISLEADS the American people about my offer, then translated, this can only mean that this JR is UNABLE to rebut the expressly stated evidence for the afterlife as articulated in my book.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Leroy
After viewing the above link can believers understand why it is so difficult and in my case, seems ridiculous, to believe these things?

Why don't you ask Clancie? She believes in Brian Hurst, who is a fierce advocate of ectoplasm.

She should be able to tell you why it isn't ridiculous to believe such things.

[Dragonrock]

Originally posted by Leroy
What is this link about? Zammit claims James Randi lied (http://www.victorzammit.com/skeptics/deluding.html)


It's about someone who doesn't understand how scientific evidence works. There are many of these counter-challenges that are impossible to win because the rules are fluid and the goals are vague. Also, I doubt that any of the counter-challenges have their millions set aside in bonds like the JREF. These challenges exist to make believers feel better about their irrational ideas.

[MRC_Hans]

Ectoplasm is thin cotton fabric thrown around by fake mediums. Sometimes they hide it in their mouth (yuck!).

This has been shown by hidden camaras.

Hans

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Ectoplasm is thin cotton fabric thrown around by fake mediums. Sometimes they hide it in their mouth (yuck!).

This has been shown by hidden camaras.

Hans

Some time back I did a research paper for a college english class on fake mediums. During the course of the research, I saw many pictures of mediums and their "ectoplasm" most of these were so obviuosly fake that I couldn't help but shake my head that ANYONE with an IQ above that of a goldfish could belive it to be real.

It amazes me what people will believe sometimes

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Ectoplasm is thin cotton fabric thrown around by fake mediums. Sometimes they hide it in their mouth (yuck!).


Sorry, ectoplasm looks like green slime.

Peter: "It slimed me."

Ray: "That's great! Actual physical contact!"

Peter: "I feel so funky."

[voidx]

Heheh dig around on this sight:
http://www.survivalafterdeath.org
You'll find some truly terrible examples of fake photography showing "ectoplasm". I agree, how anyone can think this isn't a hoax is beyond me. Funny thing is I get referred to this site quite often as proof of the afterlife, but most of it is in regards to trance mediums and physical mediums from the turn of the century...reall up to date stuff :).

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep


*snip* I saw many pictures of mediums and their "ectoplasm" most of these were so obviuosly fake that I couldn't help but shake my head that ANYONE with an IQ above that of a goldfish could belive it to be real.

*snip*Do you have any evidence that people with IQ above a goldfish believe in it?

Hans :D

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Do you have any evidence that people with IQ above a goldfish believe in it?

Hans :D

Point taken

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Leroy
What is this link about? Zammit claims James Randi lied (http://www.victorzammit.com/skeptics/deluding.html)
You kids may have witnessnessed yourself at one time or another, this is just another example of a person using a completely dodgey, evasive, and desperate arguement to support his crappy claims. How many times has a skeptic been called "closeminded" or a "liar" at one time or another... its hardly considered a reasonable arguement (I'm probably closedminded for saying that) and its a desperate "appeal to emotions" technique.

He might as well called Randi a doodoo head while he was at it...

[Dragonrock]

Originally posted by Yahweh
He might as well called Randi a doodoo head while he was at it...

What's really funny was I almost said something similar in my reply, only I was going to say "poopy pants".

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

You close-minded materialist scoffers. The Zammit challenge is a serious offer. I'm 86.3492% of the way toward disproving all the evidence for the afterlife.

No time to chat . . . they're generating new evidence only slightly slower than I'm refuting it. Uh oh! Damn, one more person started generating evidence. Pant, pant, pant . . . I think I need help here.

~~ Paul

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Ectoplasm is thin cotton fabric thrown around by fake mediums. Sometimes they hide it in their mouth (yuck!).

This has been shown by hidden camaras.

Hans If you read McDougall's report on Mina Crandon ("Margery"), you will see that he believes/has seen (I honestly do not recall which) Mina produce ectoplasm from another orifice. Suffice it to say that Mina wore very little during seances, and that none of her male sitters could have accomplished the same feat. And yes, he makes the claim explicitly, rather than as obliquely as I am speaking of it here.

[Checkmite]

Ectoplasm is actually the organelle-free layer of cytoplasm just beneath the cell wall. The portion of cytoplasm that does contain organelles and other cell structures is also known as endoplasm.

[Leroy]

Posted by CFLarsen - Why don't you ask Clancie? She believes in Brian Hurst, who is a fierce advocate of ectoplasm.

Who is Brian Hurst?

Posted by Leroy - What is this link about? Zammit claims James Randi lied

It's about someone who doesn't understand how scientific evidence works..

Are you certain that he doesn't understand? Or assuming?


I doubt that any of the counter-challenges have their millions set aside in bonds like the JREF..

Wonder how one could find out if they did, or did not

VoidX, thanks for the link, all I can do is shake my head in disbelief!

Posted by Yahweh - this is just another example of a person using a completely dodgey, evasive, and desperate arguement to support his crappy claims.

Careful, we might get accused of attacking the person and not addressing the issues he presents. Zammit stated

1. "In response to the evidence I have in my book on the Net, this JR mistakenly stated publicly no one can ‘prove the negative.’"

What book, what evidence is he refering to, has anyone looked at it?

2. "To willfully mislead James Randi conveniently ignores the expressly stated evidence I presented for the existence of the afterlife."

Again, has anyone read this book, and seen what evidence he speaks of? He speaks of Objective evidence ;)

The challenger is NOT asked to ‘prove the negative’ but to rebut the 23 different areas of afterlife evidence presented in my book. Is that too difficult for this stage magician to understand?

I believe his challenge is

I state that any 12 year old child of average intelligence will tell you after reading the challenge that the challenge is for someone to show that evidence presented in the book A LAWYER PRESENTS THE CASE FOR THE AFTERLIFE is not correct. It is simple as that!

When this closed minded-skeptic/materialist JR wilfully LIES and intentionally MISLEADS the American people about my offer, then translated, this can only mean that this JR is UNABLE to rebut the expressly stated evidence for the afterlife as articulated in my book.

I noticed that he accuses JR of lying, but I didn't find the evidence of his lies presented on the page.

I sent the evidence to some leading scientists – and not one scientist or any empiricist – or theologian or philosopher or anybody else has been able to rebut the evidence I presented for the afterlife.

I noticed that he didn't list the leading scientists or anyone else he mentioned, are we suppose to take his word for it?

See, I didn't attack this Person [Zammit], as skeptics are often accused of doing [attacking the character of the person instead of addressing the issues this person brings up].

I would like to discuss this book and these accussations that Zammit slings toward James. I suppose I will have to read the book eh?

[Dragonrock]

Originally posted by Leroy
Are you certain that he doesn't understand? Or assuming?

Either he doesn't understand scientific principals or he is ignoring them. He offers his "proof" like he's arguing a court case and trying to convince a jury. It's all carefully worded to have the maximum persuasive effect, but it's not organized as a scientific proof.

[Mike D.]

Originally posted by Leroy

Who is Brian Hurst?


Leroy,

Brian Hurst is a medium, now living in Southern California, but originally from England. He has a website:

http://www.ktb.net/~hurani/

Two posters in this forum, Clancie and RC, attended one of Brian Hurst's seances and felt that he produced evidential material.

Mike

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Don't forget this portion of Zammit's challenge:

"10. The applicant agrees that in this challenge he or she is not a commercial consumer and agrees with the offeror that nothing connected to this offer herein expressly stated or imputed will be subject to legal enforceability - to the jurisdiction of any tribunal or court of law or equity."

~~ Paul

[Camille]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Ectoplasm is thin cotton fabric thrown around by fake mediums. Sometimes they hide it in their mouth (yuck!).

This has been shown by hidden camaras.

Hans

They've also been known to use chiffon--hidden down their pants.

[Pyrrho]

I sent the evidence to some leading scientists – and not one scientist or any empiricist – or theologian or philosopher or anybody else has been able to rebut the evidence I presented for the afterlife.
Argumentum ad ignorantiam.

Nobody can rebut an anecdote.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Ectoplasm is thin cotton fabric thrown around by fake mediums. Sometimes they hide it in their mouth (yuck!).

This has been shown by hidden camaras.

Hans

Could you be kind enough to show us the movies?

[MRC_Hans]

I think they were stills. They may not be on the internet, not everything is on the internet just yet. I might be able to find some in books, but anybody could claim they were fakes, so I (as always) won't attempt to prove a negative....

Let me put it this way: If anybody wants to believe in such hogwash (creating substance, do you realize the energy levels required??), by all means do so, but if you want to convince me, you provide the evidence.

Hans

[Tony]

Originally posted by Leroy

I would like to discuss this book and these accussations that Zammit slings toward James. I suppose I will have to read the book eh?

The book is online on his website.

[Leroy]

Posted by Mike D - Brian Hurst is a medium, now living in Southern California, but originally from England. He has a website: Two posters in this forum, Clancie and RC, attended one of Brian Hurst's seances and felt that he produced evidential material.

Thanks Mike. I checked the website out.

I found the

bare-hand psychic surgery

a bit "way out - there."

The two who attended his seances, did they post about it on this board?the offeror that nothing connected to this offer herein expressly stated or imputed will be subject to legal enforceability - to the jurisdiction of any tribunal or court of law or equity
I don't know how I missed that :roll:

Hopefully I will find time today to read that book on Zammits page.

[Mike D.]

Originally posted by Leroy

The two who attended his [Brian Hurst's] seances, did they post about it on this board?


Leroy,

Clancie and RC have posted about their experiences at Brian Hurst's seance both here and at TVTalkShows. It's my impression that they discussed the seance more extensively at TVTalkShows than they did here. You can probably find what was said about it here at JREF by doing a search on Hurst.

Mike

[Leroy]

I will search for it Mike, thanks.

[richardm]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


Could you be kind enough to show us the movies?

You can take a look at some stills at the links above.

I think that this one (http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/photographs/notzing/6.htm) at least ought to fall into the "Laughable" category.

Or perhaps this one (http://www.umanitoba.ca/libraries/units/archives/collections/spir2.htm) , which is quite hilarious.