When will 9/11 CT's jump the shark?

[Caper]

It is sad that so many people have bought into the 9/11 conspiracy crap. We all know that this is mainly due to Bush hatred more then anything else (justified or not). My question is to the people on the board is. When will all this stuff peak? Has it already peaked? Will it peak when LC final cut comes out? During the 08 election? When will this crap finally jump the shark (with the general public)?

[Triterope]

Well, first they'd have to find the ocean...

[Slayhamlet]

Well, in my opinion the "Truth" movement already has "jumped the shark" in terms of ridiculousness. But as far as the general public goes, I'm betting it will die down considerably when Bush is out of office. The crazies that we deal with here will still be at it, of course, but public conspiracy paranoia about 9/11 is fed ultimately by a distrust of Bush. With Bush out of power that floodgate will be shut and the rivers of mass paranoia will run dry...

That is, unless Bush declares martial law and appoints himself Chimperor. :p

[gumboot]

Well, in my opinion the "Truth" movement already has "jumped the shark" in terms of ridiculousness. But as far as the general public goes, I'm betting it will die down considerably when Bush is out of office. The crazies that we deal with here will still be at it, of course, but public conspiracy paranoia about 9/11 is fed ultimately by a distrust of Bush. With Bush out of power that floodgate will be shut and the rivers of mass paranoia will run dry...

That is, unless Bush declares martial law and appoints himself Chimperor. :p


Would that make his wife First Primate?

-Gumboot

[Brainster]

They're not on the same planet as any shark.

But seriously, this crap is going to be around forever, because 9-11 is such a significant and memorable event. It will continue to grow for awhile because they've pretty much got the gig down at this point; ask questions, reveal your Zionist Federal Reserve aliens were behind it theory much later, when your friend is hooked and free to argue his own Neocon Fascist Karl Rove plot to get Hillary elected notion.

[Obviousman]

You mean to say they haven't already?

[Dave Rogers]

9/12.

Dave

[Brainache]

They're not on the same planet as any shark.

But seriously, this crap is going to be around forever, because 9-11 is such a significant and memorable event. It will continue to grow for awhile because they've pretty much got the gig down at this point; ask questions, reveal your Zionist Federal Reserve aliens were behind it theory much later, when your friend is hooked and free to argue his own Neocon Fascist Karl Rove plot to get Hillary elected notion.

I agree and let's not forget that people kept watching Happy Days for years after Fonzie jumped the shark. Not to mention that just like Joanie Loves Chachi, Laverne And Shirley, Mork and Mindy etc I fully expect the Truth Movement to spawn spin-offs.



ETA: This was post number 1956 for me. Coincidence? Ask Elvis.

[gumboot]

WTF is "jump the shark"?

-Gumboot

[Orphia Nay]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark

:jshark


---


There's publicity, and there's the woo-woo-ha-ha factor.

The nutty conspiracy theories will continue to get publicity as the nuttiness continues. But the debunking groundwork will continue to surge, as we have seen, and balance things out.

But there is nothing debunking can do for the CTists who want to believe in way out things because they make them feel special. They have more problems than CTism, which is just one symptom of mental illness.

[Slayhamlet]

WTF is "jump the shark"?

-Gumboot

The point at which a product (traditionally a television show) is popularly perceived to have reached its peak in terms of standard of quality or originality, after which its popularity begins to dwindle until it is cancelled. Its in reference to a particular scene in an old American sitcom called Happy Days in which one of the lead characters jumps over a shark infested partition of water on water skis as a stunt. Because of the contrived nature of the scene and the lack of plot that went into the episode, many viewers considered it a low point of the series after which the show never recovered.

[MortFurd]

It is sad that so many people have bought into the 9/11 conspiracy crap. We all know that this is mainly due to Bush hatred more then anything else (justified or not). My question is to the people on the board is. When will all this stuff peak? Has it already peaked? Will it peak when LC final cut comes out? During the 08 election? When will this crap finally jump the shark (with the general public)?

They "jumped the shark" immediately. For normal people, that would be low enough.

The Truthers, however, have proceeded to "poop on the shark," "fist the shark," "feed themselves to the shark," and "feed their best friends to the shark."
ETA:
They also play "pretend there is no shark." "Why are you guys in the water getting fake blood all over the place and screaming?"

[T.A.M.]

The 9/11 truth movement "jumped the shark" with Judy Woods "Star Wars Energy Beam Weapons" Theory.

TAM:)

[T.A.M.]

The point at which a product (traditionally a television show) is popularly perceived to have reached its peak in terms of standard of quality or originality, after which its popularity begins to dwindle until it is cancelled. Its in reference to a particular scene in an old American sitcom called Happy Days in which one of the lead characters jumps over a shark infested partition of water on water skis as a stunt. Because of the contrived nature of the scene and the lack of plot that went into the episode, many viewers considered it a low point of the series after which the show never recovered.

yes, it is when Fonzie, while waterskiing, must jump a shark pool in order to save the day. Fonzie was suppose to be the coolest, and I think that putting this cool character, in such a silly situation, I believe he was in shorts, but still wore his leather jacket, kind of killed the show...it was the heights of ridiculousness, even for that show.

TAM:)

[HyJinX]

Well, in my opinion the "Truth" movement already has "jumped the shark" in terms of ridiculousness. But as far as the general public goes, I'm betting it will die down considerably when Bush is out of office. The crazies that we deal with here will still be at it, of course, but public conspiracy paranoia about 9/11 is fed ultimately by a distrust of Bush. With Bush out of power that floodgate will be shut and the rivers of mass paranoia will run dry...

That is, unless Bush declares martial law and appoints himself Chimperor. :p

I agree whole heartedly with Slayhamlet. One just needs to look at Donald Rumsfield to get a glimpse of things to come once GW is gone. Rummy was as much, or more of, a target than Bush while he still held office. Now you can barely find a truther mentioning his name these days. What's even more amusing is asking a truther who Robert Gates is. When all the "bad guys" have left office...they'll implode and start blaming each other.

[Unsecured Coins]

jeez, you got me thinking about when Knight Rider introduced Super Pursuit mode and killed my favorite childhood show in ONE season.

Thanks guys. You all suck.

[HyJinX]

say it isn't so...

[Myriad]

One subtlety of the concept of shark-jumping is that it's not the contrived episode or change (marriage, death of a character, etc.) itself that "kills the show." The notable "jumping the shark" episode is, rather, a symptom of the possibilities in the show's original concept having been played out, forcing the writers to resort to increasingly contrived variations to keep the show interesting.

So, in many cases (and unlike the actual literal Happy Days jumping the shark episode), the shark-jumping moment isn't necessarily, in an of itself, a bad episode. In fact, it's often a "high point" or at least a fan favorite and is seen by fans (at first) as the beginning of new success. Only later, in retrospect, is it seen as the farthest distance the original concept could take the show, after which the series can only get stale from repetition or get ruined by going off on increasingly strange new tangents in an effort to stay original.

The truth movement will jump the shark, therefore, when LCFC is released. After which it will divide into two sectors (a process which is already well underway, in anticipation of the FC): traditionalists who focus on the basic truther lines of "evidence" such as cd and "stand-down" and "cave arabs" who couldn't have flown airplanes; and radicals who continue to spin new theories-of-the-week as they try to one-up the previous ones. The former will wither for lack of new material, and the latter will wither for increasing incredibility (various fragments eventually merging with other existing conspiracy mythologies; this is also already well underway on some fronts e.g. JFK and anti-Semitism, but we haven't seen much connection on others such as Roswell/UFOs or end-times prophecies ... yet.)

"Wither" does not mean disappear, though. There are still Happy Days fans.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[Nim Chimpsky]

Chimperor.

Hey, I resemble that remark.

"Wither" does not mean disappear, though. There are still Happy Days fans.

Well stated Myriad.

I have only become aware of this whole twoof movement because we have a twoofer who posts his bull-pucky in the Rant section of a football forum. He has attracted other twoofers who have nothing to do with football but still think they have found an audience. We have a few passionate people who fight these knuckleheads but I have grown tired and found this place through one of the links. You can already sense their desperation in how they post the same stuff over and over.

I too think that the release of "Final Cut" will begin the real slide. Those involved will see that there really isn't anything new or shocking and will eventually tire.

The average joe-six-pack out there has probably only heard of it 2nd hand through Rosie or Chucky Sheeny. Some may take the time to look it up but I believe the majority will be apathetic. When the soundbites get repeated too often, they lose their punch.

I predict a slight increase in attention by mid August, a national news story is probably inevitable that will give them some PR prior to 9-11, and they will peak in attention in the 1st half of September.

Once the masses refocus their attention on "back to school" shopping, the second season of "Heroes" and their Halloween costumes, the issue will again return to the depths of internet hell.

[Myriad]

Weclome to the forums, Nim!

The 9/11 discussions here in the CT forum are like the infield box seats in the Internet Hell you mentioned. It's the same game you've seen in the forum you came from (sorry), but we get a very good view (and sometimes a pop fly comes your way).

Look around a little at some of the other forums too, while you're here.

By any chance, are the footballs the same odd non-spherical shape in your neck of the woods as they are in mine?

Respectfully,
Myriad

ETA (Edited To Add): Welcome, also, to Caper!

[boloboffin]

The 9/11 Truth Movement will jump the shark when Ted McGinley (http://www.jumptheshark.com/forum/ted-mcginley/22) openly professes his Truther status.

There are some people who would probably consider Rosie O'Donnell the Ted McGinley of conspiracy theories.

[Arus808]

jeez, you got me thinking about when Knight Rider introduced Super Pursuit mode and killed my favorite childhood show in ONE season.

Thanks guys. You all suck.


No, it jumped when the dumb evil twin thing was played out...eghad.

(sorry, im a twin myself and I hate tv shows that use the whole evil twin thing, and any show that imitates a Prince and the Pauper storyline as well.)

[JimBenArm]

No, it jumped when the dumb evil twin thing was played out...eghad.

(sorry, im a twin myself and I hate tv shows that use the whole evil twin thing, and any show that imitates a Prince and the Pauper storyline as well.)
I have two evil twins. Both my twin daughters are evil. EVIL!!!

Well, not really, but they are cute!

[R.Mackey]

The "Truth Movement" jumped the proverbial shark on 11 September 2006.

They mustered the biggest bunch of themselves ever, promising a carnival of mainstream-media coverage and a slight chance of revolution, and the best they could do was to park outside Larry Silverstein's office, chanting slogans (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=63800).

Months go by, their numbers dwindle, infighting continues, no promised movies, no new evidence, no new theories, no revolution. It's going to be a long, ugly slide into pathos.

[Unsecured Coins]

No, it jumped when the dumb evil twin thing was played out...eghad.

(sorry, im a twin myself and I hate tv shows that use the whole evil twin thing, and any show that imitates a Prince and the Pauper storyline as well.)

I can buy the evil twin car, and return of the evil car shows. But do we need "evil twin truck driver" and return of "evil twin trick driver?" No, we did not. At least the KARR episodes were decent.

[Foolmewunz]

Myriad's as close to an answer on this as you can get, since the question basically assumes something that doesn't exist - a coherent and organized 911 CT "movement". They cannot agree on anything, and have started breaking into camps and camp-followers, so cannot concur on a single action or production that would be representative of Jumping the Shark.

And as R. Mackey points out, the closest thing to any unified group action, where they all agreed on something was the 5th Anniversary. They spent more than a year (even at the time of the fourth anniversary in 2005) saying, "But you just wait 'til the fifth anniversary. Then you'll see the strength of the movement and voice of the people! Our numbers are legion!"

LC and LTW are not the 911 Truth Movement. They would like to think they are, but they're merely the frontline skirmishers. They will probably fade out, find jobs and spouses, and perhaps a few of them move over to the veterans. Those veterans - the professionals - are going to be at this for decades just like the JFK conspiracists. In that group, I include the Fetzers and Griffins. They make their limited incomes off of this stuff. AJ is probably a hybrid. He's been at it long enough that this is his profession, but he's of a new generation, one that understands the power of video, the internet, and the hot media, and has shown that he knows how to exploit the opportunities he finds there.

Unless a James Cameron or Coppola or Mel Gibson decide to pick up the cause the way that Stone did for JFK, the split in the ranks and the increasing insanity of their theories will lose them any serious following.

What Stone did was to give a temporary reprieve to the mainstream belief in the JFK conspiracies. I was orginally a fan of those theories and I know many other people of my generation who agreed. But as more and more evidence came out, we began to question our own beliefs. Nova put the whole thing away for me finally, but my doubts were already in place just by the sheer volume of conflicting theories. It was the Mafia. No it was the teamsters. It was the teamsters and the mafia. It was the Cubans working with the CIA. It was the CIA working against the Cubans. It was a coup d'etat by Johnson. ad infinitum...... (There was a great half a book on Carlo Marcello - Mafia Kingfish - that lost its way into JFK CT. He had me convinced that he had all the answers.) I think's Stone's reprehensible work of fiction gave JFK CT a whole new shelf life. Now, it'll be interesting to see how much the Buglosi book helps to reverse the popularity trend towards JFK CT.

And this is the lesson we can learn from that..... Just as with 911 conspiracies, the JFK CT got loads of underground and counter-culter (fringe media) coverage because there were no sensationalized glossy articles or books being written to confirm the results of the original investigations.

No one was out there offering to do a video or book on the topic for the same reason no one's written the "OCT"(as the truthers like to call it).... It's there in the history books, newspapers, tv stories, et al. And it had/has no "sizzle". (What magazine or publisher is going to pay money for an article that merely confirms what's been seen and read by thousands, already?) With literally a generation growing up on JFK CT pablum and no one countering with anything interesting or exciting, it gained nearly total acceptance on one level of belief of another.

Will 911 CT "stay the course". I believe so. The event itself has defined a generation much the way the Viet Nam War defined mine. It's just too huge (the event, itself - not the CT) to think that the marginal press and media are not going to carry it forever. Will it ever achieve mainstream popularity the way that JFK CT did? I doubt it. I think there are a lot of debunkers who have learned from the past. I have, and intend to make sure any "questions asked" are legitimate and not hyperbolic nonsense.

[defaultdotxbe]

as of now they have peaked at 9/11/2006, they may or may not beat that at 9/11/2007 or 9/11/2008, but if they havent "made it" (instigated their revolution) by 1/20/2009 (when GW Bush is no longer president for those not familiar with the US inaugural system) their will be steady decline from there, until perhaps, the next big "conspiracy" that high school age kids will get into (much like all the the truthers "know" lee harvey oswald didnt kill kennedy)

[Mashuna]

No, it jumped when the dumb evil twin thing was played out...eghad.

(sorry, im a twin myself and I hate tv shows that use the whole evil twin thing, and any show that imitates a Prince and the Pauper storyline as well.)

So is it you or your twin that's the evil one?

:boxedin:

[Orphia Nay]

So is it you or your twin that's the evil one?

:boxedin:


Well, is Arus' twin in the NWO? :D


Oops, sorry for the derail. Or has this thread already jumped the shark?

[stilicho]

For the most part, I'm with Myriad, except that the "truth" movement jumped the shark with the first appearance of "Loose Change". Even by that time, it was already proved that Dave von Kleist had deliberately explained the dust cloud from the collapse of the South Tower as a 'mysterious explosion' from WTC 6 (or thereabouts). A clear lie to sell a theory that he already knew contained holes.

Loose Change II deliberately includes factual errors. The makers deliberately violated copyright law. Cripes, even the mockery of Martin Luther King Jr stretches the premise of 9/11 'truth' almost beyond comprehension. (By mockery, I mean linking a contrived "theory" to one of the greatest figures in American history).

Each "episode" is more pathetic than the last. I had seen a blog, recently, dated late 2006, in which someone was exchanging commentary with apparently the real Paul Isaac--an auxiliary firefighter who may or may not still stick to his story that he witnessed explosions at the WTC site. And that fellow was not terribly kind in his descriptions of the Loose Change makers.

Still, the characters are absolutely cartoonishly hilarious. I don't know who makes me laugh harder: Griffin, Alex Jones, von Kleist, Ruppert, Hufschmid (If I Were A Carpenter was the product of a truly amazing mind!), or Bollyn. I don't think I'm a better human being since reading or watching their stuff but it sure has been entertaining to plumb the depths of popular dementia.

[Triterope]

I don't think the shark-jumping analogy works here. To jump the shark, you have to sustain some level of quality first. Can anybody identify a time when 9-11 Truth was of high enough quality that a decline would have been noticable?

If we're going to make comparisons to the life cycles of TV shows, "9-11 Truth" is more like a pilot that never got on the air... but it's still trying to.

[The Doc]

They'll never let go.

There will be a point though, when people stop listening to them. I think that is already starting.

[DarkMagician]

Can anybody identify a time when 9-11 Truth was of high enough quality that a decline would have been noticable?

Quite a few programs have that exact same problem.

[Orphia Nay]

I don't think the shark-jumping analogy works here. To jump the shark, you have to sustain some level of quality first. Can anybody identify a time when 9-11 Truth was of high enough quality that a decline would have been noticable?

If we're going to make comparisons to the life cycles of TV shows, "9-11 Truth" is more like a pilot that never got on the air... but it's still trying to.

:newlol

A good point, Triterope.

[The Kooger]

They'll never let go.

There will be a point though, when people stop listening to them. I think that is already starting.


Don't worry, I haven't raised my voice yet, when I do, people will hear me. Gravy will be the cause for it's tone.
Good day to you and the rest of you until then.

[Dragon]

Don't worry, I haven't raised my voice yet, when I do, people will hear me. Gravy will be the cause for it's tone.
Good day to you and the rest of you until then.:confused: Say wha'?

[Myriad]

:confused: Say wha'?


Maybe he's finally going to honor us with that thread he was going to start (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2454771#post2454771) three months ago.

Or maybe he has a megaphone. And/or a really piercing voice.

Time will tell.

Or not.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[Brainache]

Don't worry, I haven't raised my voice yet, when I do, people will hear me. Gravy will be the cause for it's tone.
Good day to you and the rest of you until then.

Well, I for one welcome our new Kooger overlord.

Must be a real trial keeping yourself on the leash for all these years.

Go on Koogs, let rip. What's stopping you?

[T.A.M.]

I don't think the shark-jumping analogy works here. To jump the shark, you have to sustain some level of quality first. Can anybody identify a time when 9-11 Truth was of high enough quality that a decline would have been noticable?

If we're going to make comparisons to the life cycles of TV shows, "9-11 Truth" is more like a pilot that never got on the air... but it's still trying to.

Ahh...but quality is in the eye of the beholder...I think the "jump the shark" analogy does work wrt the truther perspective. Even though we are the ones making the call on when the movement has "jumped the shark" I think we do so in terms of the truthers perspective.

I still think, When Fetzer went over to the STAR WARS BEAM WEAPON crowd, it was the jumping of the shark.

TAM:)

[Triterope]

I still think, When Fetzer went over to the STAR WARS BEAM WEAPON crowd, it was the jumping of the shark.

I have to disagree. In fact, I see this kind of argument as a second reason the jump-the-shark analogy doesn't work: there's no way to determine whose actions define the movement.

TV shows often jump the shark because of the actions of a leader, but that's because TV shows have a hierarchy that dictates who gets to call the shots. The Twoof movement, as a whole, doesn't have that kind of organization. There are all kinds of factions within it; disagreements about who the "true" leaders are; allies who turn into enemies and then allies again faster than bad-guy wrestlers; and of course, all the you're-disinfo-no-you're-disinfo paranoia that's so much fun to watch.

[Foolmewunz]

I have to disagree. In fact, I see this kind of argument as a second reason the jump-the-shark analogy doesn't work: there's no way to determine whose actions define the movement.

TV shows often jump the shark because of the actions of a leader, but that's because TV shows have a hierarchy that dictates who gets to call the shots. The Twoof movement, as a whole, doesn't have that kind of organization. There are all kinds of factions within it; disagreements about who the "true" leaders are; allies who turn into enemies and then allies again faster than bad-guy wrestlers; and of course, all the you're-disinfo-no-you're-disinfo paranoia that's so much fun to watch.

That's pretty much what I was saying in that long rambling post, above. (Or at least in parts of it... Damn, I can be verbose, sometimes!)

[T.A.M.]

Look I am a Canadian and I say they jumped the shark...so they did...

Oh wait...wrong section...

Continue.

TAM;)

[pvt1863]

Doesn't the phrase "jump the shark" imply that the show was good before said jumping occurred? Can a show (or a movement; let's say, perhaps, the "truth" movement) that was really bad from the beginning jump the shark?

To me, asking when the "truth" movement jumped the shark is like asking when wearing scrambled eggs as a hat became unpopular.

[Stellafane]

The skis left the surface of the water when South Park called them retards. From that point on, being a 9/11 CTer would never again be as cool among the 15-22 year old boys whom up to then had provided the bulk of their audience. The skis splashed down when The View canceled. It was almost certainly the last chance they will ever have to vent their views for an audience that large, in a venue that mainstream. Notice that this soon snowballed into a string of bad news for the CTers.

Still, I'm sure a lot of them regret nothing. How often do bottom-dwellers get to jump sharks anyway?

[The Doc]

If Loose Change gets a theater release, interest in 9/11 conspiracy will inevitably raise for a short period of time.

The anti-climax that the conspiracists will feel after LC fizzles is going to be extremely cool to watch.

[gumboot]

I've just been wondering what I'll do once the CT excitement fizzles away completely. For the last year quite a large chunk of my spare time has been spent posting here, but lately, with the exception of Non Believer's threads there's been very little for me to comment about.

My posting here coincides with the long period of writer's block that I always experience after finishing a draft of my novel. With any luck I'll be able to find the spark to get back into it, otherwise I really don't know what I'll do with myself. Worse still, being winter it's the quiet time for my industry, and I spend most of my time sitting at home wishing I had some work so I wasn't so bored!

-Gumboot

[stilicho]

I've just been wondering what I'll do once the CT excitement fizzles away completely.

-Gumboot

You could always change your nick to "Lewin-Navasky" and go over to LC or Liberty Forums and post about this: http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/iron.html

[Triterope]

Still, I'm sure a lot of them regret nothing. How often do bottom-dwellers get to jump sharks anyway?


That's really the lesson here. The leaders of the Twoof movement may be stupid, childish, incompetent, and unlikely to ever get any real media attention. But they've still achieved a level of notoriety they never could have otherwise. To even be in a position to jump the shark makes them successes, to a degree.