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View Full Version : Britiain Considers Extending Anti-Cruelty Protection to Lobsters, Bugs, Snails.....


SteveGrenard
23rd June 2007, 10:01 AM
I guess animal cruelty is a social issue so I will post this here. It seems
the UK is considering extending anti-animal cruelty protections to spiders, lobsters, squid, snails ....list goes on:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=463760&in_page_id=1770


People could be prosecuted for being cruel to pet spiders, octopuses and restaurant lobsters under animal welfare plans being considered by the Government.

The Department of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is investigating whether invertebrates - the family of animals that includes insects, spiders and molluscs - should get the same protection under the law enjoyed by dogs, cats and horses if they are kept in captivity.

Ministers are under pressure from animal campaigners, who argue that some invertebrates are capable of feeling pain.

The move follows the introduction of the Animal Welfare Act in April, which made people legally liable for the basic welfare of animals in their care and introduced new fines of up to 20,000.

Wirelight
23rd June 2007, 12:32 PM
What about the carrots?

tkingdoll
23rd June 2007, 01:20 PM
Well, if you had a pet tarantula, then you shouldn't be allowed to torture it, any more than you should a cat. I can see how that's the same. But restaurants routinely cook lobsters live - the death is probably instant but if they can feel pain then that's going to cause some issues. Well, lobster isn't popular enough here for it to be a real issue, but presumably there will be some sort of pre-boil stun procedure. Probably not a big deal.

If there is merit to the notion that these creatures comprehend pain in the same way as cats and dogs, then the law should be consistent.

I would like to see that evidence though.

TragicMonkey
23rd June 2007, 02:24 PM
They should extend that protection to bacteria and viruses, too. Then they couldn't fight diseases, infections, or clean the bathroom. Or even wash their hands!

UserGoogol
23rd June 2007, 02:38 PM
I don't see why not. Invertebrates are a very very large catagory of animals, and cephalopods in particular do have pretty meaty brains, apparently (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalopod_intelligence). To simply have the possession of a spinal cord be the determining factor for animal cruelty is kind of stupid, since there's no inherent relationship between that and the ability to feel pain; although at the same time there's a lot of invertebrates which certainly should not be protected, so it requires a certain amount of finesse to do this right. Tarantulas and lobsters might be going too far (I have little knowledge of how those animals work so that's totally a gut feeling) but at the same time the Daily Mail is not above presenting the more sensationalistic sides of things, so they might be picking silly hypotheticals just for the heck of it.

Gord_in_Toronto
23rd June 2007, 03:31 PM
They should extend that protection to bacteria and viruses, too. Then they couldn't fight diseases, infections, or clean the bathroom. Or even wash their hands!

So the only solution is that the entire human race must commit suicide to remove its pernicious anti-life activitives from the planet. :boggled:

Miss Anthrope
23rd June 2007, 03:41 PM
And a million little British boys will become a class of criminals..........

Lonewulf
23rd June 2007, 04:00 PM
So, just because it doesn't have a backbone, makes it comparable to virii and bacteria? I find it curious how many people in this thread seem to be jumping to conclusions, but I expected nothing else...

Anyways.

t said 'a significant minority' of those consulted believed some of the more sophisticated invertebrates should be included in animal welfare laws. Octopuses, squid, cuttlefish, lobsters, crayfish, prawns, shrimps and crabs were among the animals that generated concern.

I'm not so sure about prawns and shrimp, but the others do seem to have potential for feeling. I'd be curious to see studies.

Octopuses - which can be taught to make their way through mazes and open screw-top jars - are already protected under animal experiment laws, but have no such protection outside the laboratory. Defra officials will draw up their final Animal Welfare Delivery Strategy over the summer based on the findings.

I fail to see the problem here. The law already protects the animal from animal experiments, why not protect it from cruelty?

Any extension of the laws could mean restaurant owners being prosecuted for mistreating lobsters or crabs on their menu. While they would still be able to boil the crustaceans alive to kill them, they would have to make sure they are kept in clean, warm uncrowded tanks up to that point.

Again, what's the problem here?

This doesn't seem to be a blanket ban, as far as I can tell, though the article (and posters here) seem to be making it out to be. I'm pretty sure that the law won't make any blanket decisions rashly here.

And a million little British boys will become a class of criminals..........

The horror, all of those snot-nosed kids, not able to get away with torturing an octopus.

They should move on to puppies and kittens instead.

corplinx
23rd June 2007, 04:04 PM
Fish are a disposable pet for the most part. They aren't huggable, live in an alien environment, don't cry, and don't seem to display human emotions like dogs.

Corplinx's Law of Animal Care says that people fight much more for animals that are easier to engage in anthropomorphism. Puppy mills are bad but fish hatcheries aren't even on the radar. Nobody protests at Walmart because too many guppies are dieing from inadequately trained staff at the pet department.

Lonewulf
23rd June 2007, 04:11 PM
Fish are a disposable pet for the most part. They aren't huggable, live in an alien environment, don't cry, and don't seem to display human emotions like dogs.

Corplinx's Law of Animal Care says that people fight much more for animals that are easier to engage in anthropomorphism. Puppy mills are bad but fish hatcheries aren't even on the radar. Nobody protests at Walmart because too many guppies are dieing from inadequately trained staff at the pet department.

Man. You're so easy to prove wrong.

Octopuses - which can be taught to make their way through mazes and open screw-top jars - are already protected under animal experiment laws...

I'd say "too bad I'm in your ignore list", but honestly, I think it's better that you won't respond to me. Saves the IQ points.

Regardless, fish in tanks are usually low on the intelligence/cogniscent scale. I don't think that anyone would call a goldfish smarter than an octopus.

TragicMonkey
23rd June 2007, 04:14 PM
I don't think that anyone would call a goldfish smarter than an octopus.

But they're cuter, which is what matters in terms of public opinion.

Nobody makes delicious Octopus crackers.

Lonewulf
23rd June 2007, 04:16 PM
But they're cuter, which is what matters in terms of public opinion.

Nobody makes delicious Octopus crackers.

And yet, octopi are protected.

So obviously, public opinion doesn't really matter much.

But hey, maybe I shouldn't rain on "animals = ears of corn" Corplinx's parade.

DanishDynamite
23rd June 2007, 04:29 PM
About time.

Tsukasa Buddha
23rd June 2007, 04:35 PM
Okay, I confess! It was just crawling by and it was my instict to crush it! By the time I has realized what I had done it was crippled. I stopped myself from killing it completely! But should I have ended its misery? What are the ethics of insect euthanasia? I don't know...

(True story)

andyandy
23rd June 2007, 05:14 PM
i'd just like to say that this is the Daily Mail - and this fits straight into their "political correctness gone mad" editorial policy and thus should be taken with a very large dose of salt.....

here we are, burried at the bottom of the article

'There are no plans to change the Act in relation to invertebrates,' a [DEFRA]spokesman said.

RecoveringYuppy
23rd June 2007, 05:34 PM
But they're cuter, which is what matters in terms of public opinion.

Nobody makes delicious Octopus crackers.
Never say nobody.

http://www.nycnosh.com/?cat=25&paged=1

shemp
23rd June 2007, 10:59 PM
So the new humane way to kill a lobster is to fire a bullet into its head?

Lonewulf
24th June 2007, 02:54 AM
So the new humane way to kill a lobster is to fire a bullet into its head?

Please quote where someone said that?

Darat
24th June 2007, 03:29 AM
i'd just like to say that this is the Daily Mail - and this fits straight into their "political correctness gone mad" editorial policy and thus should be taken with a very large dose of salt.....

here we are, burried at the bottom of the article

I take it the Press Complaints folks have been after them again if they are having to resort to such tactics as including a fact in their reports?

E.J.Armstrong
24th June 2007, 05:23 AM
The Daily Mail is not a newspaper in the normal sense of the word in that it doesn't carry what normal people would consider to be news.

It is a comic and scandal mag and therefore cannot be taken seriously.

andyandy
24th June 2007, 05:43 AM
The Daily Mail is not a newspaper in the normal sense of the word in that it doesn't carry what normal people would consider to be news.

It is a comic and scandal mag and therefore cannot be taken seriously.

The trouble is people do take it seriously....

I had to pinch myself to see if I was awake
This Government is going from the ridiculous to the absolutely insane. Which one of these morons is spending their time considering this nonsense.

- Marshfield, Salisbury UK

So you'll have more chance being a spider, octopus or lobster rather than an old person living out your last years in a British care home?

- Bob Edwards, NUNEATON, Warks

This is the kind of lunacy that happens when a naive, idealistic government pays too much attention to minorities and lobby groups. When is this country going to wake up and stop this madness?

- A. Howlett, Manchester

It's not going to happen! DEFRA have said it's not going to happen - they're quoted as saying as much in the flippin article! It's just a Daily Mail "What is the world coming to, it wasn't like that when I was a lad, I blame Tony Blair - bring back Maggie Thatcher - now she was a lady who wouldn't have stood for this political correctness gone mad - rights for terrorists, rights for immigrants and now rights for spiders! I blame the EU/Polish hod-carriers/illegal immigrants/gypsies/Labour/Blair/BBC/foreigners/" identikit rant....

The Daily Mail makes me depressed :(

Lonewulf
24th June 2007, 06:03 AM
I still don't see what's wrong with better holding conditions for octopi, at the least.

Lobsters, I'm not so sure of. I would not wish to see them mistreated, however.

There is a difference between "not eating" and "mistreatment"; bad holding conditions aren't really justifiable.

The Fool
24th June 2007, 06:24 AM
So the new humane way to kill a lobster is to fire a bullet into its head?

Possiby humanely killed lobster tastes better. I can investigate this if someone wants to pony up for the lobsters. PM me for payment details

Lonewulf
24th June 2007, 06:52 AM
Possiby humanely killed lobster tastes better. I can investigate this if someone wants to pony up for the lobsters. PM me for payment details

In the name of <mad> science!

billydkid
24th June 2007, 08:46 AM
I guess animal cruelty is a social issue so I will post this here. It seems
the UK is considering extending anti-animal cruelty protections to spiders, lobsters, squid, snails ....list goes on:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=463760&in_page_id=1770

People are so whacky. It wasn't that long ago, in England and I'm sure other places, when animals were tortured to death in order to tenderize the meat. Calves, for example, were beaten to death with knotted ropes. It seems that mere sanity is not one of the options, ever, on the table.

Morrigan
24th June 2007, 01:52 PM
the same. But restaurants routinely cook lobsters live - the death is probably instant but if they can feel pain then that's going to cause some issues. Well, lobster isn't popular enough here for it to be a real issue, but presumably there will be some sort of pre-boil stun procedure. Probably not a big deal.

That's just silly... you may not have ever seen it, but a living lobster dipped in boiling water turns red almost instantly, and it takes only a few minutes of cooking. While it does stir a bit of a "poor thing" thought in me (as an animal lover), I only have to remind myself of what cows go through before and during the slaughter and really, the point becomes moot and hypocritical. The only reason I felt a tiny twang of pity when we cooked that live lobster around a month ago was because I was there to see it, that's all. It'd be the same if I were to witness a halal lamb slaughtering, for example. If anything, it's pretty humane compared to how other livestock animals get treated. A "pre-boil stun procedure" would just be some crap to make touchy-feely hippies feel better about themselves.

Plus, isn't this whole deal about pets, not animals meant for consumption? I am very much against animal cruelty but even I know they are not the same thing.

Besides, lobster does not stay fresh for very long, that's why it's optimal for freshness and taste to cook it alive. Pre-cooked lobster is just not the same. ;)

SteveGrenard
24th June 2007, 02:01 PM
Plus, isn't this whole deal about pets, not animals meant for consumption? I am very much against animal cruelty but even I know they are not the same thing.

My understanding from the original story is that it covers animals which are captive and under the control of people, not necessarily those kept as pets.Why would I want to boil my pet lobster alive?

Besides, lobster does not stay fresh for very long, that's why it's optimal for freshness and taste to cook it alive. Pre-cooked lobster is just not the same.

You can buy raw frozen lobster, especially lobster tails and it stays just fine.
I am no expert on which lobster tastes better, fresh cooked live or frozen
but the proponents of a revised Animal Welfare Act seem to be opposed to
the boiling of live lobster. Agreed the slaughter of higher life forms such as calves, beef cattle and chickens seems even more horrendous, especially under Halal and Kosher rituals.

Comrade Ogilvy
24th June 2007, 04:42 PM
anything that tries to bite me...screw them!




Boris the Spider Lyrics
The Who Lyrics


Look, he's crawling up my wall
Black and hairy, very small
Now he's up above my head
Hanging by a little thread

Boris the spider
Boris the spider

Now he's dropped on to the floor
Heading for the bedroom door
Maybe he's as scared as me
Where's he gone now, I can't see

Boris the spider
Boris the spider

Creepy, crawly
Creepy, crawly
Creepy, creepy, crawly, crawly
Creepy, creepy, crawly, crawly
Creepy, creepy, crawly, crawly
Creepy, creepy, crawly, crawly

There he is wrapped in a ball
Doesn't seem to move at all
Perhaps he's dead, I'll just make sure
Pick this book up off the floor

Boris the spider
Boris the spider

Creepy, crawly
Creepy, crawly
Creepy, creepy, crawly, crawly
Creepy, creepy, crawly, crawly
Creepy, creepy, crawly, crawly
Creepy, creepy, crawly, crawly

He's come to a sticky end
Don't think he will ever mend
Never more will he crawl 'round
He's embedded in the ground

Boris the spider
Boris the spider

volatile
24th June 2007, 05:16 PM
anything that tries to bite me...screw them!

Maybe it wouldn't try to bite you if you weren't actively engaged in trying to kill the damn thing? ;)

Comrade Ogilvy
24th June 2007, 05:32 PM
Maybe it wouldn't try to bite you if you weren't actively engaged in trying to kill the damn thing? ;)


I leave insects alone...even bee`s and wasps as long as they leave me alone...but once this fly kept bothering me..it had a white head and kept squeaking 'Help Me...Help Me"...I killed it anyway..Oh well!

richardm
25th June 2007, 07:28 AM
The Department of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is investigating whether invertebrates - the family of animals that includes insects, spiders and molluscs - should get the same protection under the law enjoyed by dogs, cats and horses if they are kept in captivity.

Ministers are under pressure from animal campaigners, who argue that some invertebrates are capable of feeling pain.



Some nutcases with an agenda have written to DEFRA. DEFRA have not responded by return of post with an answer, therefore the Nanny State is actively considering how to interfere with our god-given right to stamp on spiders and other creepy-crawlies. We investigate how BLAIRS BAN on Delicious Lobster will affect house prices on page 2, 4, 5, 18-24, 29 and colour supplement.



Read how The People's Princess loved to eat lobster: "Diana used to crack the claws with her downy yet muscular thighs as a tribute to Landmine victims" - by her personal chef.

Remember that this is a poor excuse for a newspaper and anything in it must be taken with a hefty pinch of salt - which is, incidentally, a good way to cook lobster.

Next month they will probably run a story on how the heartless Brown government is excluding our Beautiful Native Wildlife from legislation that could protect it.

Speaking of the Mail and killing invertebrates, there was a good comment from Guy Browning in this weeks Guardian:


Men suddenly revert to hunter-killer when faced with a fly, with rolled-up newspapers generally the weapon of choice. Scientific experiments have shown that the Daily Mail is the most effective, as flies are often stunned by the paper long before being hit.

Beerina
25th June 2007, 07:55 AM
Possiby humanely killed lobster tastes better. I can investigate this if someone wants to pony up for the lobsters. PM me for payment details

I don't know if that would work. I thought the whole reason to dump it live into boiling water was to kill it rapidly to prevent the release of toxins which poison the meat. Meaning there's some chemical thing going elsewhere/throughout the body, independently of the brain.

Otherwise the procedure would have been to lop off it's head a long time ago.

corplinx
25th June 2007, 07:58 AM
Possiby humanely killed lobster tastes better. I can investigate this if someone wants to pony up for the lobsters. PM me for payment details

This probably needs to be done from a US location also seeing as how we will probably have different Lobster specimens. Here We would test claw and tail for Maine Red Lobster and possibly tails from Carribean Spiny Lobster.

My only concern is that butter from non-humanely killed cows could ruin the test .

MRC_Hans
25th June 2007, 08:17 AM
On lobster (and Steve will love this, heheh): During my latest trip to China, a couple of weeks ago, we were served langust (or whatever the name is in English, it's a large lobster-like animal, but without claws, instead it has foot-long antennae) as sushi. It works in this way:

The creatures are swimming about in a tank. You order it, so they catch one, weigh it (you pay per weight), chop off the hind (tail) part where the meat is, slice it thin, place it on some plasic foil over ice, and place the front part upright over it, and serve the thing. So you can ascertain that the meat is fresh because the head is watching over it antennae waving and all.

Rather erie, but it tasted great.

Hans

richardm
25th June 2007, 08:20 AM
I don't know if that would work. I thought the whole reason to dump it live into boiling water was to kill it rapidly to prevent the release of toxins which poison the meat. Meaning there's some chemical thing going elsewhere/throughout the body, independently of the brain.

Otherwise the procedure would have been to lop off it's head a long time ago.

I believe I'm right in saying that lobsters don't have a brain, they have a series of ganglia running down a central nervous cord. So no, chopping off the head doesn't kill them immediately. Some chefs slice them in half lengthways, but you'd have to be sure of getting all the ganglia in one go, which is next to impossible, so that's no good either. There simply is no easy way to do it as far as the lobster is concerned, and boiling water works as well as any other method and better than some.

Lothian
25th June 2007, 08:33 AM
I thought the whole reason to dump it live into boiling water was to kill it rapidly to prevent the release of toxins which poison the meat. Meaning there's some chemical thing going elsewhere/throughout the body, independently of the brain.

Otherwise the procedure would have been to lop off it's head a long time ago.That is my understanding as well. I have caught loads of them and we always kept them alive until they are cooked.

Whereas with crabs we would kill them straight away with a screwdriver through the mouth.