Finnished reading the Book of Mormon

[Marc]

Why do I read this stuff? Curiosity I guess, makes it easier to discuss, but it can be painful at times reading the likes of Schwartz or Sylvia Browne. Anyway..

You know, a lot of times a book can be criticized if the characters in it are not very believable. In here we have examples of people seeing a variety of miracles, talking directly with angels, and yet still rejecting the 'word of god'. Not very different from the book of Exodus where it seemed that miracles were a daily occurance, yet stop watching these people for two minutes and they are already making golden idols. Interesingly, if a person truly believes the book is a work of fact, then they have to accept such stories of people having intimate contact with the divine and yet do not believing. How then do they expect us to believe without any such miracles?

And for a book of 'god' it is amazingly bland. I've heard people refer to the banality of the paranormal. How even with the supposed 'higher truths' of mysticism there is usually little there to compare to advanced philosophy or science. Here it is the same thing, a thousand itterations of "follow god and good things will happen, don't follow him and you'll be destroyed." And the narrow minded "only god is good, if you are not for god then you are evil" argument. Not any kind of big insight or deep understanding. The opposite in fact, an overly simplistic and unrealistic view.

Another major theme seems to be 'not written here'. Over and over in the book we read about rich history that is recorded elsewhere, or not "I write not even one hundredth of these events" "many great words were spoken" but apparently not written down. Near the end there were even excuses for this. God commanding that the good stuff not be recorded because it is only for the faithful to hear at the proper time.

Part of the teachings is that ALL the prophets, from Abraham on up (and even earlier given the book of Ether) knew about Jesus's comming and prophesized it. When the day finnally arives, in the land Jesus is born you get a star apparently only noticed by a handful of astrologers, and an angel talking to a few shepards. In the americas we get a night as bright as day. And when Jesus dies the americas are covered in complete darkness for three days. You can't even light a match. Plus storms, earthquakes, floods, fires, etc. destroy a few dozen cities of unbelievers, leaving behind just those that will accept Jesus.

Oh yea, that's another thing. Supposedly america is colonized in 600 BCE by a jewish clan, from them are decended the Nephites and the Lamanites. The Nephites are supposedly the good guys who follow god.. most of the time.. but are ultimatly destroyed when they turn from him. The Lamanites are the bad guys who almost never follow god (so how come they wern't destroyed?) cursed by god with dark skin. There is even a passage where some Lamanites that convert are so faithful god makes them white again. They are the ancestors of american indians.

Not much in there that shows where Mormons got some of their weirder ideas, like the magic underwear. And poligamy is specifically spoken against in several places, is this a latter edit? If not then how did they excuse it when it was openly practiced?

[American]

So do you feel like doing absolutely nothing that's fun, interesting, or meaningful with your life now?

[Mike D.]

Originally posted by Marc

Not much in there that shows where Mormons got some of their weirder ideas, like the magic underwear. And poligamy is specifically spoken against in several places, is this a latter edit? If not then how did they excuse it when it was openly practiced?

Marc,

For other, more "unique," aspects of Mormon theology and cosmology, see a Mormon scripture entitled Doctrine and Covenants.

The Book of Mormon is the first scripture in the specifically Mormon canon. It predates the practice of polygamy. The anti-polygamy passages in the Book of Mormon are not edits. Some of the Book of Mormon's teachings definitely conflict with later Mormon revelations.

Mike

[UnrepentantSinner]

Marc, good for you and thanks for the synopsis. I have a casual familiarity with Mormon theology and historical revisionism, but have never read the BoM.

[Checkmite]

I read the Book of Mormon once...well, I started on it. When the book authoritatively declared that the Red Sea was in Galilee (rather than east of Egypt), I gave up on it.

[Hexxenhammer]

Polygamy comes from Joseph Smith not being able to keep it in his pants when he saw a pretty girl. His entire argument for it was along the lines of "god wouldn't have made all women so attractive if we were only supposed to have one." Polygamy wasn't even openly acknowledged or practiced until after he'd been killed. He took his "spiritual wives" in secret. Even his wife didn't know. He would say to some sweet young thing "God commands that you must be my wife. You have 24 hours to decide if you will marry me. And god will damn you to hell if you don't." When Brigham Young finally brought polygamy out into the open, the first of many rifts were formed in the Mormon church. Smith's widow went with the anti-polygamy sect. You don't read that on the LDS website. The main Mormon church decends from the polygamists.

[Mike D.]

One time I knew some Mormons who had the following bumper sticker on their cars: "Discover America. Read the Book of Mormon."

[c4ts]

You know, I go to Utah just about every summer, I've had missionaries come to my door, and yet I've never actually read the Book of Mormon.

[Mike D.]

Originally posted by c4ts
You know, I go to Utah just about every summer, I've had missionaries come to my door, and yet I've never actually read the Book of Mormon.

c4ts,

Mormon missionaries have been known to tell prospective converts that if a prospective convert reads the Book of Mormon, and with a sincere heart asks God to reveal to him or her whether or not it is true, the prospective convert will feel a burning in his or her bosom. And that this is the Spirit bearing witness to the truth of the Book of Mormon.

Mike

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by Mike D.


c4ts,

Mormon missionaries have been known to tell prospective converts that if a prospective convert reads the Book of Mormon, and with a sincere heart asks God to reveal to him or her whether or not it is true, the prospective convert will feel a burning in his or her bosom. And that this is the Spirit bearing witness to the truth of the Book of Mormon.

Mike

Are you supposed to eat a chili dog before reading it?

[evildave]

Not to be confused with acid reflux...

[Mike D.]

Marc,

Did you notice how often the Book of Mormon uses the phrase, "and it came to pass"?

Mike

[BobK]

Originally posted by Mike D.
Marc,

Did you notice how often the Book of Mormon uses the phrase, "and it came to pass"?

Mike

That means they voted on what they're going to say next.;)

[Yahweh]

Those Mormons might have crazy beliefs, but out of all the Mormon kids I've ever taught, they all seem to be really super nice and really super happy to be alive... clearly god must frighten them... "momma, jesus gonna get me"...

[Marc]

Originally posted by Mike D.
Marc,

Did you notice how often the Book of Mormon uses the phrase, "and it came to pass"?

Mike

There are a number of phrases that keep getting repeated, like talking about temporal and spiritual death. Heck, did you notice how often names are used? Seems like every other person was named Mormon, Moroni, Nephi, Alma and the like.

There was also that interesting aside where it goes into explaining the monetary system. Why? to explain to the modern reader when he talks about what Judges are paid.

Around page 280 there is apparently an 'anti-christ' that shows up, making some of the same arguments as atheists and some that we wouldn't make. Because of 'freedom of religion' at the time there is no crime they can charge him with though they so very much want to imprison/execute him. The "debate" between him and a prophet is silly, the prophet's argument comes down to "look at the testimony of all these other people" and god striking him dumb. Debates are so much easier when you have control over if your opponent responds or not, and control over god's actions too.

[FireGarden]

Hi Marc,
I wonder if you could confirm/refute this, I don't know any Mormons that I can ask.

(Paraphrased) From Encart98: Mormons believe in:
prenatal existence of the human soul;
a definition of the Trinity as three separate individuals, God the Father and Jesus Christ being physical persons united in purpose;
and a belief that human beings can, if they live the commandments of God to the full, attain the status of godhood in future aeons.


People being able to attain godhood is not something I would associate with any of the Christian religions.

[a_unique_person]

Marc, are you sure you wouldn't have been better occupied spending your time on a walk in the park?

Having said that, I think you deserve some sort of medal, kind of like one of the poison tasters for a king does.

I tried to read a bit of the book of Mormon once and could only conclude it was the work of someone who had read the King James bible and wanted to write the sequel, only the original author was dead, just like they did with "Gone With the Wind".

Your many hours of thankless labour have confirmed what I have long suspected, that reading anything past the first page is complete and utter waste of time. And the only point in reading the first page was to know how stupid the rest of the book was.

[Peter Jenkins]

(Paraphrased) From Encart98: Mormons believe in:
prenatal existence of the human soul;
a definition of the Trinity as three separate individuals, God the Father and Jesus Christ being physical persons united in purpose;
and a belief that human beings can, if they live the commandments of God to the full, attain the status of godhood in future aeons.

Ex mo Here

mormons believe that we were all born into heaven, from a heavenly father (God) and a heavenly Mother (who doesn't do much except have 'babies', I guess - either that or she's not keen on publicity) Everybody who has verybeen born, or will ever be born, was once in a pre-mortal heaven

god, jesus and the Holy ghost are three seperate individuals with free will. only god and jesus have a physical body. all three are united in implementing gods plan for us all

there is a famous mormon saying - as we are now, so god once was. as gos is now, so we may become.
ie, god was once a human, who suffered physical discomforts, pain, etc and became perfect. If we go through the mormon rituals and get married (this is very important) we can become future gods.

these are 'Official' beliefs, accepted by the 'prophet' as church doctrine - there are lots of unofficial church doctrines - accepted by most of the membership, but not part of official doctrine - examples include - the prophet is perfect, incapable of being wrong on any subject, and incapable of telling a lie.
this has proved a bit of a stumbling block in the past when, for example, Brigham Young was prophet, and declared that people lived on the moon

peter

[Michael Redman]

The Book of Mormon lacks the depth, history, and wisdom of the Bible, which is pretty understandable if you consider that, while the Bible has had millenia and various scholarly authors and cultural traditions and histories to refine and adapt it, the BoM was written pretty much all at once, in modernity, by one person who wasn't all that well educated. Not a bad effort, but from what little I have read, I think it must seem pretty obvious to a believer that God was off his game when he inspired the new book.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Peter Jenkins

mormons believe that we were all born into heaven, from a heavenly father (God) and a heavenly Mother (who doesn't do much except have 'babies', I guess - either that or she's not keen on publicity) Everybody who has verybeen born, or will ever be born, was once in a pre-mortal heaven


Interesting. Basically, that means that our current beings or conciousness will not actually experience the reward of heaven. If the next life in heaven is anything like the previous life in heaven, then I, as I know myself here and now, won't be there.

[FireGarden]

Thanks for that Peter,
It's not that I doubted Encarta as such, just that I thought such extraordinary claims ought to be backed up with more.

I think Plato may have suggested pre-natal souls at some point. And there's alot of Ancient Greek input in Christianity.

But how did they get from "One God" and "worship no others" etc, etc to "everyone can become a god if they...."?
It sounds more like Scientology than Christianity.

This does not seem to be a sequel with good continuity.
But I like the plot twists and surprises!

[RSLancastr]

Originally posted by GoodPropaganda
But how did they get from "One God" and "worship no others" etc, etc to "everyone can become a god if they...."?
It sounds more like Scientology than Christianity.Because this universe has only one god, and you are to worship no other.

If you are a very good Mormon, you will become a god of your own universe, and the same could be true there.

[Marc]

Originally posted by GoodPropaganda
Hi Marc,
I wonder if you could confirm/refute this, I don't know any Mormons that I can ask.

(Paraphrased) From Encart98: Mormons believe in:
prenatal existence of the human soul;
a definition of the Trinity as three separate individuals, God the Father and Jesus Christ being physical persons united in purpose;
and a belief that human beings can, if they live the commandments of God to the full, attain the status of godhood in future aeons.


People being able to attain godhood is not something I would associate with any of the Christian religions.

Strange thing is none of that is from the BoM. The only thing it mentions is the Jesus/god thing and seems to be saying Jesus is god. However as a friend who was raised in a mormon family reminds me, the Mormons have several books. Doctrine & Covenants and Pearl of Great Price for example. And of course the head of the church is considered a prophet with a direct line to god. Any one of them in their history can make up all kinds of nonsence.

[Acrimonious]

I was raised in a Mormon household.

In High School, most Mormon teens are asked (forced) to attend "Seminary" classes. These classes are usually hours before school begins. What better time to indoctrinate than 5AM? Nobody is awake enough to protest.

Each year of school, they'd teach a different book.
Old Testament
New Testament
Book of Mormon
Other (including D&C)

There was 1 rule:
If you didn't attend, you had to turn in the homework for that week's unit.

I never went. I love sleep too much. As a result, I did every last stinking worksheet there was. This meant I had to read every last verse in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

Reading the BOM had the exact opposite effect than what the missionaries preach.

One example:

I can find Jerusalem, the Red Sea, Galilee, etc on any world map. For the life of me, I can't find "Zarahemla"

I pointed this out to a fellow "student." They pointed to Mexico City. Unfortunately for them, I knew some actual history. Mexico City was called Tenochtitlan, not Zarahemla. It was also founded around 1325 AD, not 800 BC. The Native people that founded Mexico City were of Siberian and Oriental descent (having crossed a land-bridge over the Bering Straights), not Jewish (rafting from Israel).

The student's response?

"The Lord conceals things to test our faith."

On one hand, Occham says you're full of crap. On the other hand, there's a deific conspiracy to LIE to me, going so far as to change the DNA of an entire people, and remove every single trace of archaeological evidence that would support your doctrine.

I stuck with Occham. He's been my good friend for about 10 years now.

[Mike D.]

Originally posted by Acrimonious
I was raised in a Mormon household.

In High School, most Mormon teens are asked (forced) to attend "Seminary" classes. These classes are usually hours before school begins. What better time to indoctrinate than 5AM? Nobody is awake enough to protest.

Each year of school, they'd teach a different book.
Old Testament
New Testament
Book of Mormon
Other (including D&C)

There was 1 rule:
If you didn't attend, you had to turn in the homework for that week's unit.

I never went. I love sleep too much. As a result, I did every last stinking worksheet there was. This meant I had to read every last verse in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

Reading the BOM had the exact opposite effect than what the missionaries preach.

One example:

I can find Jerusalem, the Red Sea, Galilee, etc on any world map. For the life of me, I can't find "Zarahemla"

I pointed this out to a fellow "student." They pointed to Mexico City. Unfortunately for them, I knew some actual history. Mexico City was called Tenochtitlan, not Zarahemla. It was also founded around 1325 AD, not 800 BC. The Native people that founded Mexico City were of Siberian and Oriental descent (having crossed a land-bridge over the Bering Straights), not Jewish (rafting from Israel).

The student's response?

"The Lord conceals things to test our faith."

On one hand, Occham says you're full of crap. On the other hand, there's a deific conspiracy to LIE to me, going so far as to change the DNA of an entire people, and remove every single trace of archaeological evidence that would support your doctrine.

I stuck with Occham. He's been my good friend for about 10 years now.

Acrimonious,

I wonder what it was about you that caused you to reject the "one true Church" and its doctrines, when others in your Seminary classes probably turned out to be devout Mormons, served as missionaries, were married and sealed in the Temple, etc. What caused you to doubt and reject when they ultimately didn't? Was it heredity, your environment, or what?

Mike

[Peter Jenkins]

Originally posted by pgwenthold


Interesting. Basically, that means that our current beings or conciousness will not actually experience the reward of heaven. If the next life in heaven is anything like the previous life in heaven, then I, as I know myself here and now, won't be there.

mormon's believe that everbody goes to a heaven - or some version of paradise, except for the really wicked people who go to 'Outer Darkness' - but to qualify for that you have to be VERY bad. Everyone else will go to one of three heavens (or degrees of glory). the good, true believing mormons will go to the best place (obviously) called the celestial kingdom, where they will meet god and learn all his tricks before moving on to create their own universes. Thats married couples of course. Single true believing mormons will be servants for the married couples.


the book of mormon was written early on in the history of the mormons. Joseph Smith used it to create his church, which he presided over. after a while he had all these neat-o ideas about controlling liquor, running his own bank, and getting lots of sex with lots of different women, so he had 'revelations' and started writing them down in a book which iis now known as doctrine and covenants. That is why most of the extreme stuff is not actually mentioned in the book of mormon.
Peter

[Mike D.]

The Mormon doctrine that there is a "Heavenly Mother" has been mentioned in this thread. There is a well-known Mormon hymn entitled "O My Father." Its words were written by Mormon writer Eliza Snow, and it includes this verse:

"In the heavens are parents single?
No, the thought makes reason stare.
Truth is reason: truth eternal
tells me I've a mother there."

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Yahweh
Those Mormons might have crazy beliefs, but out of all the Mormon kids I've ever taught, they all seem to be really super nice and really super happy to be alive... clearly god must frighten them... "momma, jesus gonna get me"...

I agree. I like Mormons much better then your average eaten-up xian. Mormons are not hypocrites. They actually help others in the community they live. Howard Hughes surrounding himself with Mormons because they are so honest.

But I must admit, it is odd to like someone and be thinking in your head, "This guy is wearing special itchy underwear and believes he will be the god of his own planet!"

[triadboy]

Originally posted by GoodPropaganda
Hi Marc,
I wonder if you could confirm/refute this, I don't know any Mormons that I can ask.

(Paraphrased) From Encart98: Mormons believe in:
prenatal existence of the human soul;
a definition of the Trinity as three separate individuals, God the Father and Jesus Christ being physical persons united in purpose;
and a belief that human beings can, if they live the commandments of God to the full, attain the status of godhood in future aeons.


People being able to attain godhood is not something I would associate with any of the Christian religions.

It's all true. The Trinity aspect takes on an additional bit of fun, because within each individual is again the Father Son and HG. So it's like....9....or something

[Marc]

Originally posted by triadboy


I agree. I like Mormons much better then your average eaten-up xian. Mormons are not hypocrites. They actually help others in the community they live.
That is unless you are an ex-mormon. They got their own excomunication/disfellowship/disconnection thing going.

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by Marc

That is unless you are an ex-mormon. They got their own excomunication/disfellowship/disconnection thing going.
From what I got from reading "Under the Banner of Heaven" they are ex-communication trigger-happy. Imagine if all your neighbors are Mormon. You're Mormon. The dogs and cats are Mormon. Then you spout off about something controversial. Like that you are going to marry a black person. Then you're excommunicated. You still live in the same neighborhood you lived in before. Shop at the same stores. See the same people. But the all look at you funny because you got kicked out of THE church. How could you live like that?

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Hexxenhammer

From what I got from reading "Under the Banner of Heaven" they are ex-communication trigger-happy. Imagine if all your neighbors are Mormon. You're Mormon. The dogs and cats are Mormon. Then you spout off about something controversial. Like that you are going to marry a black person. Then you're excommunicated. You still live in the same neighborhood you lived in before. Shop at the same stores. See the same people. But the all look at you funny because you got kicked out of THE church. How could you live like that?

At least you're not invisible.

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Marc

That is unless you are an ex-mormon. They got their own excomunication/disfellowship/disconnection thing going.

good point. No way I would relate to that. I'm not an 'ex' anything....except some kind of ex - ignorant Presbyterian

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by triadboy


I agree. I like Mormons much better then your average eaten-up xian. Mormons are not hypocrites. They actually help others in the community they live. Howard Hughes surrounding himself with Mormons because they are so honest.

But I must admit, it is odd to like someone and be thinking in your head, "This guy is wearing special itchy underwear and believes he will be the god of his own planet!"

Itchy underwear?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Great story Acrimonious, thanks for sharing it.

All I can say about the Book of Mormon is... it's no Dianetics!

a_u_p, he's referring to the Magical Underware. Steve Young wore them.

[triadboy]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Itchy underwear?

Mormons wear special undergarments. I've never pranced around in any, but someone told me they were 'itchy'.

Are there any ex-Mormons here who can speak to the itchiness of their former underwear?

[Logical Goddess]

as i live in utah, and have done a terrible bit of research on their goings on, i must say that i have a bit of authority in the matter of any validity in claims to these peoples' sanity. first off, i've read the book of mormon. not the current, calmed down "we aren't really a cult" version, but that including such items as a transcription of the golden plates (it is currently a "not found here" item). anyway, it's quite odd. god is a spirit being from a physical planet far, far away, and his two sons were the "jesus" and "satan" (but with different mormon names). To say the least, the later was a hooligan, with aims of corrupting our humble planet.


TO BE CONTINUED (late for dinner party. well, not late, but i will be after the 1 hour 30 minute drive. au revoir!)

[FireGarden]

god is a spirit being from a physical planet far, far away, and his two sons were the "jesus" and "satan" (but with different mormon names). To say the least, the later was a hooligan, with aims of corrupting our humble planet.
Don't stop!
Keep going!
This fits as a continuation of Christianity as much as anything else I've heard about the Mormons (recently).


And Jesus said: "Ye shall judge a tree by how, err, "aromatic" it's leaves are when burned"

[Bluefire]

Originally posted by triadboy


Mormons wear special undergarments. I've never pranced around in any, but someone told me they were 'itchy'.

Are there any ex-Mormons here who can speak to the itchiness of their former underwear?

Well, I'm an ex-mormon, and I've never ever heard of any "special" underwear... let alone used it.

[Peter Jenkins]

Originally posted by Bluefire


Well, I'm an ex-mormon, and I've never ever heard of any "special" underwear... let alone used it.

I'm stunned! Have you ever heard of the temple ceremony?????

They are known as "Garments" or "G's" they come in two parts; a pair of long-john type underpants and a t-shirt. On the chest of the t-shirt are masonic symbols (Joseph Smith was a mason - he became interested in the masons AFTER he formed his church - later, he was thrown out by the 'proper' masons and much of the Mormon temple ceremony is very similar to masonic ritual)

G's are worn by True Believing Mormons (TBM's) only after they have been through their 'endowment' ceremony at a Mormon temple. The temple ceremony is secret and the G's are 'sacred' so they are rarely mentioned by people who wear them.
G's are supposed to protect the wearer from all evil - once, this was supposed to mean physical protection. Nowadays the church says the 'protection' is only spiritual.

When those elders come round, trying to convert you, they will almost certainly be wearing G's. Ask them next time they knock.

edited to add link: more about the temple ritual (with mention of Garments) (http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech22b.htm#Masonic%20Ritual%20in%20the%20Temp le%20Ceremony)
Peter

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Bluefire


Well, I'm an ex-mormon, and I've never ever heard of any "special" underwear... let alone used it.

Are you an "ex" from the Mormons that separated and settled in the Midwest? Maybe they don't use the special underwear. But I'm fairly certain the Utah Mormons wear them.

[Bluefire]

Originally posted by triadboy


Are you an "ex" from the Mormons that separated and settled in the Midwest? Maybe they don't use the special underwear. But I'm fairly certain the Utah Mormons wear them.

No, I'm an "ex" from the original mormon church. (though I live in sweden)

[Bluefire]

Originally posted by Peter Jenkins
[B]

I'm stunned! Have you ever heard of the temple ceremony?????

G's are worn by True Believing Mormons (TBM's) only after they have been through their 'endowment' ceremony at a Mormon temple.


That could explain it, I never went through the endowment ceremony. I visited the temple twice, once when my parents had their marriage sealed, and once doing baptise for the dead.


When those elders come round, trying to convert you, they will almost certainly be wearing G's. Ask them next time they knock.


Well, only really qualified persons are supposed to go through the endowment ceremony. And knowing the local church elders, I'd be very surprised if anyone of them qualified :-)

I don't get visits from elders though... only from the occasional missionary that hasn't yet heard about me and our family (eg. they're new in the city).

[Bluefire]

Just realized that the missionaries also refer to themselves as elders... though I still doubt that the 18-20 yr old missionaries that usually come has been through the endowment ceremony.

[Jude]

mormon's believe that everbody goes to a heaven - or some version of paradise, except for the really wicked people who go to 'Outer Darkness' - but to qualify for that you have to be VERY bad.

Yes, in their faith there are three kingdoms of heaven. It was once said that if you caught a glimpse of the lowest kingdom for only a moment, you'd immeadiately throw yourself off a bridge to get there. And you're also correct about Outer Darkness. To put things into perspective, not even Hitler would be considered evil enough to be sent to Outer Darkness. To qualify, you have to deny god's divinity to his face, knowing with 100% confidence that he truly is god--no room for doubt. So I don't think anybody worries about going there.

Outer Darkness is not hell, though. Mormons do believe in what could be classified as hell, but it is referred to as Spirit Prison. Basically, after you die, but before you receive your eternal body, you're sent to the Spirit World to wait around and play poker until judgment. Spirit World is divided into Spirit Prison and Spirit Paradise (they liken Spirit Paradise to what the Bible refers to as Heaven). Going to Spirit Prison just means you haven't repented for any of your sins, and that you must undergo trials to purge the sins. Kind of like what Jesus went through, except for your own sins and not a bajillion other peoples'. After all that, you must pass judgment, receive your eternal body (which is just the body you have now, except without any imperfections), and are sent to one of the three kingdoms depending on your performance in life. Anyway, as far as I know, judgment day doesn't happen until that apocalypse nonsense, so our great-great-great-great-etc grandparents are probably getting pretty bored in Spirit World.

[Jude]

Originally posted by Bluefire
Just realized that the missionaries also refer to themselves as elders... though I still doubt that the 18-20 yr old missionaries that usually come has been through the endowment ceremony.

The priesthood ranks in Mormonism are different. When you turn 18, you're eligible to become an elder. I think you become a priest when you're 14 and a deacon when you're 12.

[Jude]

Originally posted by Mike D.
The Mormon doctrine that there is a "Heavenly Mother" has been mentioned in this thread. There is a well-known Mormon hymn entitled "O My Father." Its words were written by Mormon writer Eliza Snow, and it includes this verse:

"In the heavens are parents single?
No, the thought makes reason stare.
Truth is reason: truth eternal
tells me I've a mother there."

I'm not sure if it's codified (I think it is, but I'm not completely certain), but most Mormons consider anything printed by a prophet and all of their hymns to be doctrine. So it's pretty widely accepted that their is a heavenly mother for just that reason.

[Peter Jenkins]

Bluefire wrote:
Just realized that the missionaries also refer to themselves as elders... though I still doubt that the 18-20 yr old missionaries that usually come has been through the endowment ceremony.
All the young men and women, serving an official mission, have been through the temple endowment ceremony (there are 'stake missionaries', who are part time and need not have been through the temple ceremony, but that's another matter)

There are over 100 temples throughout the world. In your part of the world, Bluefire, there are temples in Stockholm and Helsinki. I would guess that most of your stake officials have been through at least one temple ceremony.

Jude wrote
I'm not sure if it's codified (I think it is, but I'm not completely certain), but most Mormons consider anything printed by a prophet and all of their hymns to be doctrine. So it's pretty widely accepted that their is a heavenly mother for just that reason.
It's a hell of a job to tie down. Debating with a (skilled) Mormon apologist is like trying to nail jelly to the ceiling. Basically, everything the prophet says, is divinely inspired doctrine. Unless it's later proved to be wrong, in which case, it was human conjecture. Anyhow, hers a couple of quotes on the subject:

"This doctrine that there is a Mother in Heaven was affirmed by the First Presidency of the Church (Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, and Anthon H. Lund) when, in speaking of pre-existence and the origin of man, they said that "man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father," that man is the "offspring of celestial parentage," and that "all men and women are the similtude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity (Man: His Origin and Destiny, pp. 348-355). This glorious truth of celestial parentage, including specifically both a Father and a Mother, is heralded fourth by a song in one of the greatest of Latter-day Saint hymns, O My Father by Eliza R. Snow, written in 1843, during the lifetime of the Prophet, includes this teaching: In the heavens are parents single? No; the thought makes reason stare! Truth is reason, truth eternal, Tells me I've a Mother there. When I leave this frail existence, When I lay this mortal by, Father, Mother, may I meet you In your royal courts on high? Then, at length, when I've completed All you sent me fourth to do, With your mutual approbation, Let me come and dwell with you." (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 516-517).

"Because we are the spiritual children of our heavenly parents, we have inherited the potential to develop their divine qualities." (Gospel Principles, p. 11).

[Bluefire]

Originally posted by Jude


The priesthood ranks in Mormonism are different. When you turn 18, you're eligible to become an elder. I think you become a priest when you're 14 and a deacon when you're 12.

Here are the ages:

diacon : minimum 12
teacher : minimum 14
priest : minimum 16
elder : minimum 18

[Bluefire]

Originally posted by Peter Jenkins

There are over 100 temples throughout the world. In your part of the world, Bluefire, there are temples in Stockholm and Helsinki.


Yes, I've been to the temple in Stockholm...